Author Topic: 1964 230SL restoration in UK (Read 238360 times)

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #325 on:** June 26, 2016, 06:52:09 »

The first picture illustrates nicely what is going on that you can't see, this is inside the main centre crossmember behind the seats where it joins the side chassis rail. The crossmember section on this side is slightly worse on the flanges where it meets the chassis rail so will need those replacing.

I was hoping the trailing arm mount would be in better condition this side as well but it is still pretty pitted inside so I will replace the outer section like I did on the drivers side, I was very reluctant to use that repair panel at first but it actually turned out OK in the end.

I only got a few hours on the Mercedes yesterday so I wire wheeled the repairs on the drivers side and spent a few hours seam sealing the joints so I can get some primer on the repairs. All quite satisfying. Not much will happen for a while now, off to see a couple of stages of the Tour de France this weekend!

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #326 on:** June 26, 2016, 12:17:38 »

Some of the seams sealed with TigerSeal, I need to check but I am pretty sure the brushable seam sealer I have has to go over a primed surface so I wanted to really seal all the joints first and then get a coat of primer on. I'll brush seam sealer on later but I need to do some research first. I read somewhere on here that the seam sealer went on after topcoat?

Certainly when I stripped it all off from underneath it seemed that their undercoating acted as a seam sealer also as it looked like it had been sprayed on with a schutz gun and then a brush run across all the seams.

At this stage I just want to get some primer on to stop the new metal going brown.

Shvegel · « **Reply #327 on:** June 27, 2016, 12:48:52 »

The underseal was applied over primer but before topcoat. The wheelwells etc are then painted after the underseal is applied. I went a little crazy here trying to get an acceptable application of underseal. I bought several products and several application guns(Schutz guns). What I figured out was that the the hardest thing to get right was the sloppiness of application. Most schutz guns are vacuum pickup guns which don't seem to get enough material on the car. I tried a few then moved on to a Lord Fusor gun which sprayed a caulking gun tube style seam sealer fairly well but the underseal was too rubbery like a silicone more or less. Another drawback of the Lord Fusor system was that the sealer essentially cured and was only paintable for a week.
I finally settled on a product from U-Pol called Gravitex which is available in black and white and is tintable as well. My car had very light underseal so I left it white. I tried using a schutz gun but really had a hard time getting the texture I wanted. In order to get enough material on you had to go really slow and the air from the gun would end up blowing the underseal everywhere. I ended up using a Sata SRS rustproofing gun with a round wand on a tube. I sprayed it at fairly high pressure and at about a 45 degree angle so the air from the gun would sort of blow the underseal into peaks as you went along. I cut a paintbrush bristles down to about 3/4"(19mm) and used that to brush the seams. Since my car was a dark color I used black for the wheel wells so and chips would be less noticeable.

As a guide motoringinvestments.com has a number of original cars that show the proper application style.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #328 on:** June 30, 2016, 06:44:35 »

I used Gravitex on my Mustang, only problem I had was my gun sprays too fine so I was going to try another gun for this job to get a coarser finish. I have already got the white gravitex in stock as our paint factors had it on special offer....It seems a shame to cover all the hard work under the car with a heavy coat of stonechip, it's the same when we body off a Corvette, the chassis' look so good that it almost seems a shame to put the body back on!

I read somewhere there is a Wurth gun that will spray quite coarse, I guess this is the gun you used?

http://www.lord.com/products-and-solutions/fusor-312-sprayable-seam-sealer-gun

I took quite a few photos of the original undercoating so that I can at least make an attempt at it looking correct. I can imagine it being very difficult to get it looking right though. You can see in these pictures some seams were brushed heavily and some left well alone, I'm pretty paranoid about rust coming back though.

You can see on the attached pictures that there was a lot of brushed out seams by the rear under seat area, but none on the main floor pan itself, and brushed round the rear shock tower but not around the main chassis legs. The other point of note is the different colours under the car, there is grey under the fuel tank and mushroom everywhere else, the floor inside the car was the same colour grey with maroon on the rockers and overspray inside the car. I guess I'll just tell the painters not to mask it inside and see what happens.

We've just had a Corvette body shell delivered to us from a London bodyshop that has painted the windscreen frame bright red the same as the car and painted the whole inside flat black with perfectly masked edges and wotnot and it just looks all wrong, whilst the whole originality thing has gone out the window on mine because of colours, transmission, and lights, I'd still like to keep to the original finishes.

Not sure if I'll hand paint the grille blackout though....

Shvegel · « **Reply #329 on:** July 01, 2016, 06:26:27 »

All your work looks great!

The Lord gun was good but the coatings I used in it were too rubbery. If you do a lot of seam sealing it would work great for that as it comes with several nozzles the dispense seam sealer in ribbons etc.
The Sata HRS is a pressure pot gun so you get a pretty good volume. I practiced a bunch and remember having to do multiple passes to get it on thick enough. Hit it. Let dry. Hit it again. Not sure if you have anyone over there who sprays urethane sealer? We have companies that spray truck beds with a catalysed thick coating that might just be the ticket. Luckily for me I got the HRS gun as part of an old BMW tool we were throwing away.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #330 on:** July 07, 2016, 04:46:37 »

That's very kind of you to say.

I got a couple of coats of primer on before I left work for our weekend away at the Tour de France, which was awesome by the way...I had a quick look around it when I got back. On the whole I am quite pleased with the result, now that it is painted there are a few bits I can see that I am not happy with nut nothing that will take too much to sort.

I'll have to clean the paint back on a couple of the spot welds that haven't taken too well, I guess there was a slight gap between the two sheets of metal so I'll need to plug weld them and then fake spot weld over the top, there was also one area that I forgot to stitch, hence the bare patch on the seat crossmember, I saw that just as I was about to prime...

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #331 on:** July 07, 2016, 04:52:32 »

And this is from the other side, all the seams have had sealer fingered into them and the excess cleaned off, both inside and outside, then primed over. I'll use a brushable seam sealer over this I think then prime again when I'm ready to stonechip.

So all in all I'm happy with the way it has turned out. I would like to be getting through it a bit quicker but I always seem to be under pressure at work so fit it in when I can, trouble is my other hobby is cycling and that is very time consuming.

kampala · « **Reply #332 on:** July 07, 2016, 14:09:42 »

Really nice work.

When folks on this forum ask for advice on what it takes to restore a pagoda with a "little" rust (and your car had little), we should point them to your thread.

Very informative with clear photos and descriptions. Just wanted you to know that we look forward to your follow-ups and read them with interest.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #333 on:** July 08, 2016, 06:43:49 »

That's very kind.

You're right about it only being a little rust, trouble is it is/was a little rust in lots of different areas so it is still an awful lot of work. I could also have gotten away with some localised repairs and/or patching over but I don't like that and it isn't what I want for this car. I dread to think what the bill would be if you were paying by the hour for what has been done to this car so far, and there's still a long way to go.

We have just finished a restoration on a 69 Corvette roadster and the car really is stunning, the owner has been very easy and has just let us get on with the job, never quibbling about money, but there is always the underlying factor that we have to remain commercial to a certain extent, with my own projects really the only limiting factor is my ability so it really is all on me, if it costs more it just has to take longer!

I'll bet there's a lot of cars out there that look good on the surface and don't make the cut once you start getting into it, and I hate that. There's a few firms over here now that are restoring/customising Corvettes and it seems to end at the paint job, it really is garbage.

stickandrudderman · « **Reply #334 on:** July 08, 2016, 08:45:45 »

Scott, it is indeed unfortunate that our industry is completely unregulated and we have to compete with the charlatans, some of whom have excellent marketing skills and have been quite successful in convincing the public that they arte experts when they are not.
It's a real thorn in my side and I'm sure it's the same for you.

mbzse · « **Reply #335 on:** July 08, 2016, 08:56:29 »

Quote from: Scottcorvette

.../... whilst the whole originality thing has gone out the window on mine because of colours, transmission, and lights, I'd still like to keep to the original finishes. Not sure if I'll hand paint the grille blackout though....

Of course you should :-)
I'll post some pictures of an original car, how the grille area looked from factory, with black paint runs and all...

I admire the thorough work you are doing on the body of the W113, and nice indeed that you document and post on this Forum.
Do you have an original car to look at, otherwise it must be hard to reproduce the little details.
/Hans S

Jonny B · « **Reply #336 on:** July 08, 2016, 16:20:03 »

Take a look at Pagoda Notes, Volume 4 No 1, there are several photos of the black out area from an original owner 250 SL.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #337 on:** July 09, 2016, 05:59:02 »

Jonny I don't think I have that one. I have seen photos of that area. I don't know if I'll go to that extreme or not. I have never been that much of a fan of the reproduced paint daubs on suspension and wotnot on Corvettes but I will probably go that route on the Mercedes, it just seems a bit more acceptable to me for some reason. I think there is always the risk of getting a bit carried away with them.

Hans I don't have any other cars to look at, I took lots of photos during the strip down and I photograph each part of the body before I start cutting anything out. I also keep all the bits as they come out as memory joggers. Other than that it is just what I see on the internet, the majority of which have come from this site. For example the information about seat belts has been very useful in planning where to mount mine, also Sticks superb set of photos of an original stripped bodyshell has been invaluable, so thanks for that one!

It would have been a much more difficult journey up to now without this forum that's for sure.

mbzse · « **Reply #338 on:** July 09, 2016, 17:32:49 »

Quote from: Scottcorvette

.../... I have seen photos of that area.../..

Ok, so here is another one...
/Hans S

Jonny B · « **Reply #339 on:** July 10, 2016, 01:43:25 »

Scott, all you need to do is go to the technical manual. As a full member you have access, and all the copies of Pagoda Notes are available to download.

swood1 · « **Reply #340 on:** August 30, 2016, 14:50:23 »

Quote from: Scottcorvette on July 07, 2016, 04:52:32

And this is from the other side, all the seams have had sealer fingered into them and the excess cleaned off, both inside and outside, then primed over. I'll use a brushable seam sealer over this I think then prime again when I'm ready to stonechip.

So all in all I'm happy with the way it has turned out. I would like to be getting through it a bit quicker but I always seem to be under pressure at work so fit it in when I can, trouble is my other hobby is cycling and that is very time consuming.

Hi Scott,

Can I ask what primer do you recommend for using when spraying the car? Will you be using the same primer for both underneath and the main panels? With some panels being aluminium is there a more prefered primer for these? Also, will you be using a 2k top coat?

Regards

Steven

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #341 on:** August 31, 2016, 19:41:41 »

Hi

I am using Cromax P7, which I believe is part of Dupont.

http://www.cromax.com/gb/en_GB/products/commercial-vehicle-system/primer-surfacers/P7W-P7-P7B.print.pdf

I took advice from my painter and he recommended this as an epoxy primer that could be coated again after a period of time with minimal prep, it also has good anti corrosion properties so I'm told. I did a fair bit of asking around about the best primer, epoxy vs etch, that kind of thing, and this generally came out quite well. It is a 2K paint, I am not sure if it is what they will use on the topsides or not, I imagine it may well be.

The car will get painted with a 2k paint, it will be solvent based as opposed to water based, if it is still available when it comes time to paint that is....

swood1 · « **Reply #342 on:** September 01, 2016, 07:34:50 »

Hi Scott,

Thanks for this, I guess the best approach is to cover a panel after stripping it and/or welding it. I need to remember this when I get into the nuts and bolts of my own project. As it's 2k dont you need all the respirator kit?

I have experience of cellulose painting only.

Steve

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #343 on:** September 03, 2016, 06:26:02 »

It's very different to cellulose, much harder to get a good finish than with cellulose and is far more toxic so you will definitely need an air fed mask, you'll want full overalls on too. I painted the first lot in shirt sleeves and I could feel it sticking to my arms, horrible horrible stuff.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #344 on:** September 12, 2016, 07:41:19 »

I got back on to the Mercedes on Saturday and cut the rest of the right hand rocker out. You can see the extent of the corrosion on the back of the rocker and on the jacking point, not too bad but bad enough to warrant the replacement.

I had had enough of drilling out spot welds by the end of the day.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #345 on:** September 12, 2016, 07:44:02 »

Once the remains of the old rocker was out the way I gave the inside of the upper portion of the rocker that is staying a clean with the wire wheel and a coat of kurust to kill off anything that is left. I'll get a coat of primer and topcoat on the inside of that piece today in between jobs and then I'm planning on bunking off work tomorrow and getting the new rocker in...

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #346 on:** September 13, 2016, 07:12:24 »

I took the opportunity to drill the wax access holes in the rocker yesterday so it would be easier to clean the inside of the hole before it was fitted...then gave everything a coat of paint, the flanges were masked up and given a coat of weld through primer.

There's a couple of spot welds that I went too far with my drill so will need to fill those up before I do anything else and can then start offering the new rocker up. I doubt I'll get chance to do that today so will be a job for tomorrow.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #347 on:** September 14, 2016, 20:23:45 »

Had a lousy day on the Mercedes today, to the point where I abandoned and decided to sell the car....I had set aside today to fit the RH rocker and get it welded in, but try as I might I can't get it to fit right, if I clamp one flange then the other is an inch away and if I clamp them both then the part of the sill that should be vertical leans in so nothing else will fit it

We measured all over the new rocker and it seems to have a slightly different profile to the one we fitted on the other side, and that one went in with no problem. I must admit I am always sceptical when ever I hear anyone blame the part, I hear it all the time and it is usually the guy doing the job that is the problem. I'll have another go in a couple of days when things have calmed down, ronni and spent hours on it today though and we are convinced it is the wrong shape.

Anyway I'm thoroughly cheesed off with it, wasted a day and no further on. I spoke with Shaun at Mercedes and he will have one in a couple of days so I may get that and see if it is any better than the one I have. If not then I guess I need to put my big boy pants on and make this one fit.

Sometimes I hate old cars.

andyburns · « **Reply #348 on:** September 19, 2016, 18:59:35 »

Hi Scott. Hope like hell you persevere. I went through the same frustration on a least couple of occasions. Strangely i lost it on really small things like stripped bolts. Looking back now it was a build up over many months of toil solving many frustrating niggly issues compounded by dealing with the daily frustrations of my regular job. You are doing an absolutely sublime job on this old girl. She is very very lucky to have found herself in the hands of someone with your talent. Dont give up or it will haunt you. What doesnt kill you will make you stronger. Cant wait to see more progress.

Scottcorvette · « **Reply #349 on:** September 20, 2016, 07:31:27 »

Thanks Andy. I will press on, at the very least I have too much money invested in this car anyway to be able to bail out now without taking a big hit, and that is something I can't afford to do. I am getting frustrated though. I have had this car almost 3 years and am nowhere near seeing any kind of completion.

I have only ever bailed on two cars, one was an Austin A40 sports when I was 15 and the other was a 1937 Hudson Terraplane. I was hoping to have this one in paint this year but just don't seem to get the time. I have ordered another sill from MB to see if it is better. I think it may well be, the welded tabs that hold the jacking points on mine look stretched out as though they have had to be spread out to make contact with the sill, whereas on the photo of the rocker from Shaun they look at right angles to the sill, as do the ones on the other side. Anyway I guess we'll see....

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Author Topic: 1964 230SL restoration in UK (Read 238360 times)