Pagoda SL Group

W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Scottcorvette on November 01, 2014, 07:43:50

Title: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 01, 2014, 07:43:50
(http://)Hello all. My name is Scott Groves and a year ago I bought a 230SL at auction. I had gone for a BMW 3.0 CSA to use as a daily but it was a bit too rough so I passed on that one, the next in line was a Volvo P1800 ES but that went for too much money. All the time I kept looking at this very forlorn looking Mercedes......

I knew next to nothing about these cars and called my wife Ronni from the auction to get her to look on the net and see if this may be a viable project, parts availability etc and she called back with some useful info, next thing I'm the new owner of a 230SL 4 speed car. Absolutely not what I went for as I already had a 1965 Mustang fastback project on the go that I was getting a little fed up with and wanted something to use, but best laid plans and all that.

The Mercedes seemed in basically good shape and fairly complete, but I think I had rose tinted spectacles on that day, I was suffering a bit of buyers remorse and when it arrived things didn't improve greatly. The car was described as a running project but at the time of sale the auction house couldn't get it to run, this was a condition of sale so they did get it going and on arrival Ronni and I took it for a quick run up the road. I had intended to get the car MOT'd and use it for a month or so in it's scruffy state to try and appraise a bit further but the brake booster was bad, the tyres were bad, pretty much everything was bad so I took it home and just thought about it all for a bit.

This is the car as it arrived at my shop:

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on November 01, 2014, 07:52:54
At least it doesn't look like it's been messed about with. Nice gaps and crisp lines. Is it rotten?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 01, 2014, 07:57:30
So once at home I got to looking a bit harder at the car, I'd already got it on a lift at work and found the solid floor pans were not so solid, the tail light panel is no good, there is rust around the rear fender arches, and some around the rear frame rails too, but that seemed to be all there was. I got in touch with the Mercedes classic centre and they gave me copies of the data card which was interesting. I started looking around the web in earnest and came across this website, which has been invaluable so far.

Over the last year I have been working on the Mercedes as and when I can/feel like it. It has been a busy year for me, the mustang is pretty much finished now, my wifes Karmann Ghia needed the heater channels and rockers replacing, along with a lot of sheet metal work, this was frustrating as I had had a lot of that work already done but that's another story. So attention now turns to the 230SL.

Some of the rust:
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 01, 2014, 08:04:50
I would say it isn't rotten. There are issues here and there but on the whole it seems very good. As you say shut lines are all very nice.

As I started to research a bit more I started to learn about things like fender notches, front fender spot welds etc etc. The nice thing about this car is that the front fenders are all original and seem perfect. The car has been painted a couple of times and so the fender notches are there but nowhere near as obvious as some of the photos I have seen.

The fender spot welds are all perfect, and the car has most of the original undercoating on the underside of the fenders, and is lovely. The nose panel has had a dent pulled out at some time but that is the only work needed on the front end. All the trouble seems to be at the back:
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 01, 2014, 08:21:16
And this is the current state of play. I took the engine and transmission out last week. Pretty much all the trim is removed. I have steam cleaned everything and will remove the front and rear suspension next week.

Once that is done I will try and mount the car to our rotisserie so I can steam clean underneath a bit more thoroughly and then start stripping the paint. Once that is done I can get the underside and engine bay sandblasted and then assess the car properly. I want to make sure there are no other hidden nasties before I start buying parts.

I own a busy Corvette restoration shop here so am well versed in this sort of work, but will need help with some of the finer sheet metal work. If only Mercedes used GRP.....

My overriding feeling during the strip down has been what a nice car to work on this car is. Everything is so nicely made, the parts prices are making me wince a little though. I am used to Corvette prices, not Mercedes!

That being said, I have very much fallen in love with this car, despite the drain it will be on my bank account. Will I still feel this way in another years time?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 01, 2014, 09:23:39
Hi Scott,  the car reminds me very much of mine when I first got it.  Same year and color.  Am interested in what your color code is.  Looks as if its a dark red?  Think you will keep it all original?

I will also be interested to see how long it takes you and what you think at this point of proceedings.  I gave myself 6-8 months when I first started but two years latter still chipping away.  One spine latter!  You are obviously a pro with the right gear so am picking you will churn it out in far less time.   I really hope you keep up the posts in here I have really enjoyed looking at the ones you have put up thus far  :)

PS The corvette in the background looks absolutely beautiful.  Have always had a soft spot for those.  What year is that one 57 ish?

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on November 01, 2014, 10:11:34
Scott - welcome and I am sure your tale of buyers remorse is more common than you'd imagine. As Andy says, at least you have the skills and kit to overcome the problems! It'll be lovely when it's done. I'll bring mine up one Saturday if you're around. Would I be right in saying you were selling a loud coloured (lime?) 911 2.7 recently?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 01, 2014, 10:12:32
Hi Andy

The car was originally burgundy red 573G with a natural MBTex interior and natural soft top. I am wrestling with myself on this one as I like cars to be in their original colour, but at the same time, if I am to invest all this time and money into the car then I tend to also want to do them in the colour scheme I would have chosen were I able to propel myself back to 1964 and walk in to an MB dealership to treat myself to a new Mercedes!!

I have blown hot and cold on colours a bit, initially going to go for a dark met blue with cognac, then silver with red, and I think my current choice is a gunmetal grey with a red leather interior. Whatever colour I choose it will be a Mercedes colour from 1964. I will only ever paint a car period factory colours. I have never been real strong on maroon cars although there was a picture of a car posted recently in 573 dark red and it did look lovely, I don't know if it is for me though.

With regard timescales, as this car is for me and not a client I can only work on it in my spare time, so it is evenings and Saturdays only, I can steal the odd day but not much. We are open on Saturdays but it is the day I tinker with my own projects. I anticipate that this will be another 18 months - 2 years before this one is done. I have had the car a year already but only done bits and pieces - now it's time to get serious!

The Corvette in the background is a 67 tripower that we did a body off on for a client, no body or paint, just the chassis work. It is my wife and I that do the work and I have a young lad a couple of days a week so it is pretty full on. This is my place www.corvetteuk.com for those that may be interested.

As a footnote, yours is one of the threads that has really helped me in a lot of ways, and has certainly inspired me to carry on with the project. This is without doubt the finest car related website I have ever been on. You guys certainly know your onions on these cars, and are also very helpful with it.

This is a photo of the rocker showing the original colour:
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 01, 2014, 10:19:33
Hi James

That would be great! Be good to have a look around another car and get a few pointers, be nice to have a ride in one too....

Yes the bright green Porsche was mine, I bought it from the same auction to use for a bit, I'd never had a 911 and wanted to try one before they got out of my reach financially. I only had the car a few months as it was never going to be a keeper, just something I wanted to get out of my system. I sold it to a nice guy from Scotland, and he drove it from Norfolk to the highlands with no problems. Now if I could only find a sensibly priced 356.

I'm going back to the same auction this afternoon, I really should stay away.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on November 01, 2014, 10:23:03
I shall PM you next time I am up near my car - it's near Diss
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 01, 2014, 16:07:06
Scott, welcome to the group. As you have already noted, the folks are the site are ready to assist. BTW, excellent and clear picture of the empty engine bay showing the VIN on the right front subframe arch, clear and unmolested.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 01, 2014, 20:28:10
Scott, I know what you mean about wanting to keep the color original.  It tore me for quite some time.  Mine was also a rare shade of light red which Mercedes only did for a year or two.  Obviously not very popular so they discontinued.  I have seen a 230 in Maroon.  Very regal look very much like the dark blues.  Its all personal preference I guess.  In saying that I did have exactly the same philosophy as you in that I ended up painting it the scheme I would have ordered from the factory.   As long as its done properly I personally dont see anything wrong with color changes.  When I got my car the engine bay was red and the exterior was a non MB gold which grated me somewhat!  At least you have two shades of the same color hue to begin with :)

I agree with the other guys in that your car looks quite good on the surface.  Suppose until all the paint is off you wont know for sure, but the signs seem good!  Will be interesting to see more of the dis-assembly photos as you get into it.  Will also be interesting to see how it all compares to the American tin you are used to tinkering with.

Your site is fantastic.  Pawed over all the photos in the gallery.  Am in love with the 50's vettes.  If I won lotto I would definitely be adding one to my collection!.   Also very envious of your workshop.  I wish I had the space to put in a hoist.  Have been working off very limited space for two years.

Have you ever come across a crowd called Jaymic who are a BMW shop who are somewhere close by to you?  I have been dealing with them for 2002 parts for 20 years now.  Started my car days with 2002's





Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 02, 2014, 07:47:26
JonnyB, Thanks.

It was the thing that attracted me to the car so much at the outset is that it did look so straight and unmolested. You could see that whilst it had been painted a long time ago, the body was very straight, and the only surprises so far have been the rust in the floor, and a little bit in the reara chassis legs by the rear wheel. It is a shame about the floors as 90% of them look great, but I figured if I have to replace one, and then a little bit on the each of the other 3 I may as well replace them all.

A better picture of the VIN, I would like to prime the car in the same grey primer so I can try and replicate these details. Any ideas on what to use?

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 02, 2014, 08:05:41
Andy when my car was repainted they did a pretty thorough job. As I have been dismantling I have found silver on the windshield frame. I did wonder if this was factory under the chrome but then I found maroon under that so I guess the whole windshield frame was painted body colour?

They must have stripped the paint then because it is bare metal under the red. I guess it will all show up then. I am hoping to have the paint stripped and underneath blasted by Christmas.

In comparison to working on a Corvette, in some respects  the SL is easier to work on, in some not. I particularly like the way all the trim attaches on the Mercedes, on a Vette it is all self tappers and rivets, you get the impression that the Mercedes is really 'put together' but I would expect that given the price difference when new and the expected difference in build quality between the brands. I also really like the way the wiring harnesses are made. Having said all that a Corvette is actually a very well put together car, especially when compared to Ford products of the day. My Mustang is a real flimsy old thing next to the Corvette, and an early Corvette really is a wonderful car.

The Merecedes has been nice to work on so far, in fact Ronni says I seem very happy and at peace with everything when I am working on it.... all I have done so far though is dismantle and that is relatively straight forward, I have taken over 300 photos as I strip down so far as a memory aid, and this site has been worth the membership fee over and over. I had a Citroen SM a couple of years back and that car had me in tears trying to change a water pump seal, but what a car!!

I know of Jaymic, they are not far from us but I have never been there. I like 2002's though, there has been a couple of turbos for sale here recently but for big bucks.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 02, 2014, 08:15:18
Here are a couple more pictures from when I got the car, the trunk floor is really nice. The gas tank was rotten when I took it out though. When I turned it over there were little fountains of gas going everywhere. I suspected it might be an issue as there was a coating of tank sealant in the filler neck, need to try and figure whether to get the tank cleaned and repaired, or bite the expensive bullet of a new tank. We are having to replace a lot of Corvette tanks at the moment so I think it is becoming more and more common as all our cars get older, difference being a Corvette tank is $200 not $1200.

Here are a few of the interior also, I am missing a few parts here, I need the grilles for the seat backs, I have the wrong clock and I need a radio. I was also unsure about the shift knob being black and the steering wheel being ivory, any thoughts?

I think the dash in these cars is absolutely stunning, and it's so comfortable. I am hoping to put a 5 speed transmission in if I can find one, and I think I'd like to go power steering on it also.

And talking of build quality...the rear emblem is wonky, yet I am sure it is the original decklid and there is only the one set of holes for the emblem. I guess it will become clear when the paint is off but it is looking like my decklid emblem may well have been their last job on a Friday.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 02, 2014, 08:51:13
Scott, your car must have been late 63 looking at the vin.  Mine was chassis number was 2718 and was sometime in Feb or early March.

I had the same issue with you with aftermarket radios and incorrect clock etc.  These types of things really add to the cost of the restoration to get them right.  You are looking at the best part of a 500-800 squid for a decent correct period small face backer and clocks are not far behind.  I just started collecting them, spacing the purchases out so the wife wouldn't get to alarmed.

In saying that it sounds as if yours is a one in a million find.  Did I get it wrong that she actually works on the cars with you!   I read this to my wife in bed this morning and asked her if she would mind helping me refit the exhaust.  Even with a dodgy back I still got a hoof in my side!

Another thing which stood out to me is the dash.  The early 230's had a very chiseled well defined dash.  It looked very 50's to my eye.  Before all the PC safety stuff came in.  Someone has redone your dash with what looks like wadding.  I think the factory did it with 3-4mm foam.  The front edge was a piece of dense glued on rubber that gave the very chiseled front edge.  You will find heaps of stuff in here about it. 

I dont think the rear vents on the back of the seats will be too expensive.  I have seen them on ebay before for a reasonable price.  The thing with these is all the small 'additional' purchases seem to go through the roof when you add them all up.  I have just stopped doing it.

I dont know what it is about the gas tanks in other countries.  They all seem to rust to hell.  I have pulled apart dozens of them here and have yet to find one that wouldn't scrub perfectly.  Perhaps its the salt on the roads or additives that are put in the fuel.  Who knows. 

In any event keep the photos rolling.  Can you get some of the underside for us.  Thats where the real critique will start.  I am interested to see how bad your pans are.  I elected to carefuly weld in replacement sections reproducing the factory swages as closely as possible.   I am certain it was much quicker that ripping everything else out and starting again.  Also I preserved at least 90 percent of the factory under seal which is very very hard to reproduce.

Just out curiosity how much would the 56-57 vettes be worth now. 
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: jameshoward on November 02, 2014, 09:28:22
Welcome. Looks like you've saved a nice car, though as you note she'll cost a bit to put right.

Andy is spot on about the dash. If you think it looks nice now, the sharper edges of the original profile really add to the look.

The only other point to add is that you have the US style rear lights with red indicators. Given your work on the Vettes you probably have a tame testing station. But if not when you MOT the car make sure you've looked up on tinternet and printed off that part of the regs that addresses indicator colours. In the UK they have to be orange for cars built after (I think) Apr 65, with a 6 month grace period that takes you out to something like Sep 65. (can't recall exactly, but the info in online and on this site somewhere after my very expensive faff on this issue).

JH
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on November 02, 2014, 11:48:57
Scott,

Welcome to group - I'm also kicking off my second restoration. This 2nd car (Dark red) also had rusted floors, etc, and I paid a lot more than you did (but Aust delivered RHD's tend to be worth a lot). Colour is a big thing for me and I am happy with the ones I have, however, if I was teleported back to 1970 and walked in to a Mercedes Dealership........ I would order a Gunmetal Grey 280SL with Cognac (or red) interior, ivory steering wheel and tinted glass all round. (BTW - I think a 230SL is clearly the prettiest Pagoda - but I went for a 280SL because of the drive-ability and investment value).

I believe the shift knob was originally black but you could get an ivory one as a dealer fitted option. I believe in staying with the original colour myself but will change the steering wheel and shift knob to ivory.

Warning - these cars really grow on you - especially once you start driving them............ you'll never tire of the attention and compliments either.

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 02, 2014, 15:21:03
Thanks fellas. Nice to get some good feedback and a a bit of a boost also. I know what you mean regarding the dash, I had seen photos of the more chiselled dash pads and they look really good. The interior in mine looks very home made. The wood in mine completely fell apart also. I did buy some from a member here but it doesn't match my speaker grille very well so I will keep looking. I should imagine I'll wind up getting new wood.

James I did toy with the idea of changing to amber lenses for the rear indicators for safeties sake here in the UK, but I really like the all red lenses so will look for new ones of those. I also really like the USA style headlight treatment too. Had I been looking for a Pagoda in the first instance then these might have been considerations, I also didn't know the difference between 230, 250 or 280's at the time. It just seemed such a sad looking old thing and I thought I could give it a good home!

I'll keep putting pictures up.  I also take videos of customers cars as a record for them. I have done the same for the Mercedes. I have uploaded the first two on to youtube in case anyone would like to see. They are hardly family viewing but I think some of you guys might be interested. I'm sorry I sound so depressed....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj89InDrob8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvEbDeMDNHo

Andy a 56/57 Corvette in the UK is £50-60,000 good driver quality, more for a real pearler.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 02, 2014, 15:26:57
By the way Andy, my data card is stamped 23 June 1964. I don't know how that stacks up with actual manufacture dates though.

Here is the translation from the classic centre:

Engine: 127981.10.003***

Transmission: 003***

573- Paint, Burgundy Red

114- Interior Trim, Natural Light MB-Tex

401- Single seats

493- H.D. heat exchanger U.S. Version

503- Outside rearview mirror, on the left

525-1 kg lacquer

641- White-wall tires

663- 50 liters of fuel

730- Folding top fabric, Beige

835- Coir mats

Front left axle- 046439

Front right axle- 046387

Rear axle—004453

Steering box- 223450

Wheel- 5,5 J x 14 H

Tire- 185 x 14 Phon
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: KevinC on November 02, 2014, 16:50:08
Scott,

Here are pics of Forum member Urban Janssen's (UJJ) car in the event you wanted to see these two colors together.

Kevin
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: KevinC on November 02, 2014, 16:57:08
And here's Don Pemberton's 250SL. Actually a slightly different shade
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 02, 2014, 18:42:39
Scott, the videos are great.  Guarantee you will go back to them time and time again as the restoration progresses.  I didn't take any videos which I now regret but did take thousands of photos which have proved invaluable.   The number of times I have had my bacon saved by taking a photo of a particular subject only to inadvertently capture another in the background.  It always seems to be the accidental subject in the background that's the useful one!!! 

Another great coup is that I have been taking photos with a digital SLR at 15mp.  The ability to zoom in on things has been fantastic.  Checking to see if washers are under bolts and the like.  Sounds like I probably dont have to pass on these tips to you though.  ;)

If you ever need them I can send over the entire collection of photos on a memory stick.  Might prove useful pulling the car apart knowing where fasteners and the like are.   I have categorized the photos into logical groups which has been helpful.  Unless you are careful with these puppies you end up breaking little bibs and bobs which really add to the total cost.  Nothing on these cars are particularly cheap. Patience isn't one of my strong points which has ended up costing me dearly.

I cant wait for your reaction when you get into pulling the dash apart.  Start looking for an old mattress as you will be spending quite a few hours on your back.  I also found anti inflammatory pills quite helpful.  Hopefully this site will make that journey a bit more bearable than if you tackled it cold.

In any event I am personally happy to help out in any way I can.  Have only an amateurs knowledge but am still keen to pass on an learning's, good or bad, if it will help.  Don't hesitate to ask.




Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 03, 2014, 07:39:59
Kevin thanks for that. The colour I had in mind was a metallic grey, similar to this:

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21165.0

This was the blue that appealed:

http://www.watchcollectinglifestyle.com/home/mercedes-benz-280-sl-pagoda-a-saturday-afternoon-classic

Or silver, looking at those pictures I think the blue may be back in the running...

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 03, 2014, 07:46:33
Andy I appreciate that. I'm sure there will be areas that I have forgotten to photograph and will forget how it goes back together. I may well call on you for the photos.

I already got the dash out. I did that whilst the car was at my house. It has only been at the workshop for the underneath stuff, most of it has been done at home in my single car garage. I have just had a new garage built with a bit more room in it though so the reassembly should go a bit easier. I didn't find the under dash work too bad, once the head scratching was done. I also have an extensive knowledge of swear words that I can call on when needed.

These are the last two videos that show the car in it's current state. I had last week off work and left the young lad to hit it all with the steam cleaner so all the muck is gone, there was even a cigarette end lodged in the grease on top of the transmission...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWNkcPburCg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2mAdZnnI78
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on November 03, 2014, 08:41:19
Hi Scott, not sure if this helps?

Car is factory two-tone. "Blue" over "Grey-Blue" (those Germans really knew how to create exciting names for colours).

Main body colour - Grey Blue, is metallic and takes on quite different shades in different light conditions.

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 03, 2014, 17:26:52
Very nice shots of the blue-gray car! What was the location in the bottom photo (car on the wood floor)? Looks like an interesting place.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 03, 2014, 19:01:25
Yes I think that is lovely. Is that 906G??

It is 387H that I was going to go for. I had my painter do me a colour chip in that and the dark red. Still time to change my mind though.

I have had a change of plan on mine and am going to strip the paint on mine before I remove the suspension and mount it on the dolly. I wanted to leave it painted so I don't have to worry about it being in bare metal for cleaning underneath. I had painted a few of the bare bits in bilt hamber hydrate 80, which I think is the same as hammerite kurust and the body got wet when we steamed it the other day. It hasn't affected those areas at all so I'll paint the whole car with that whilst it stands.

So tonight I started to tape up all the holes in the car, and put masking tape over all the shuts so stripper doesn't go everywhere. I'll be using langlow strip away pro. I use to use Nitromors but it has been made so safe to use now it is pretty ineffective, once the paint is stripped I'll wash the body work down with a scotchbrite pad soaked in thinners. It's a miserable and messy job but I think is the nicest way to strip.

I did think about acid dipping but I have reservations about it, I am nervous about the acid remaining in box sections and double skinned areas, also I don't want all the original undercoating to be removed. If the car had more rot I may have gone that way but most of it is so good it just seemed too invasive.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 03, 2014, 19:05:25
A couple of pictures of the dash with all the instruments out too, and one of the engine bay after steam cleaning, shows the blackout by the air filter nicely.

Also one of the floors. I was all set to replace them all but I think I may just try and do the few small areas as Andy suggested and keep as much original metal in there as possible, 90% of it is lovely it is just a few bits in the corners, the drivers one is toast though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: KevinC on November 03, 2014, 21:59:49
Scott,

Just curious...does anyone use a system like this for stripping cars? They claim that they got their start stripping boats in England...

 http://www.farrowsystem.com/company/

Kevin
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on November 04, 2014, 12:10:38
Yes Scott, that is 906G (the 387H is the hardtop and hubcaps)

Below are photo's of my project car before I stripped it down (just did that 2 weeks ago). These photos were given to me by the previous owner after it was resprayed. Colour is Dark Red (542G) the previous owner admitted it was resprayed in a more metallic colour. In the door inners I can see old paint against new paint. Original paint is non metallic and darker. I will be taking back to original. I will change the steering wheel colour to Ivory and tinted glass all around.
Photo's look pretty good but floors were partially rusted out - I will be having all floors and sills replaced. I will leave to my panel guy to decide how much original metal he will retain. Mine will be his 3rd Pagoda in a row - I've enjoyed watching his work on the other 2 quizzing him weekly along the way. Im setting aside a year for the work to be done - my cashflow wont allow it to go any faster ;D

JohnnyB that last photo was taken at the Motorclassica Classic Car Show in Melbourne. The building is the Royal Exhibition Building  - beautiful old building built in 1880. Photo was taken before I had the interior done or the engine detailed. Was still presentable but far more worthy of an event now. I did enjoy hanging around the car when people were looking at it (not letting on that I was the owner). Most people admired the colour, which is what dragged me in (causing me to buy it off ebay in 2010 on a whim.....unseen other than some external photos!!!)

Rob
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on November 04, 2014, 20:56:13
Rob,

Who is doing the work in Mlebourne for you?

Garry
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on November 05, 2014, 01:07:48
Hi Garry,

I will be mainly using 3 small operators who are all within a block of each other in Richmond (Cremorne). I wouldn't say they are 113 specialists but most have worked on my other 280SL and they are all doing my friends 280SL at the moment (which I have been supervising). They are also very fair with their charges.The main benefit for me is they are close to each other and they are en-route to work for me so I can drop in on them to and from work - which i have been doing this past year. In that process, coupled with this forum, we have educated each other and saved a lot of money along the way. Eg: I personally pick up the aluminium and take it to Greg Wood who lives around the corner from me and he does a great job on the all the aluminum parts - at a very reasonable price.

Interior: BM Leather Creations (Richmond - just down from Gary Blackman)
Mechanical : Richmond Motors (Richmond)
Panelwork: Pro Panels (Richmond)
Engine Restoration: I will use Greg Wood for everything this time, not just Aluminium
Cad Plating: SEC Plating in NSW - ( if it works out well with my friend's car. ) - Due to get them back next week.

I will be visiting the USA for work next week and plan on taking my Injection Pump to be restored by Robert Fairchild (Jerry Fairchild Industries) - as recommended by this forum. My colleague can bring it back when he visits the USA next month.

My Interior guy (Bill) is well connected with other people to do things like Timber restoration, Instruments, Vinyl repairs, New Glass, etc.

Buying most parts from the usual suppliers and ebay. Too bad we don't live in the USA - Classic Mercedes there is about half the price of Mercedes in Australia.

Let me know if you need more information or have any handy suggestions for me.

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on November 05, 2014, 04:49:48
Thanks Rob,

I was interested in who else was doing mechanical and restoration work in Melbourne. At the moment I use two, one in South Melbourne(mechanical) and one in Boronia(restoration) both who are very slow and usually take a month or two to do work.   I hate to push so that probably doesn’t help.

As I keep the car at Hanging Rock, it means driving it to Melb and returning to pick it up.  A town house I have in Melb doesnt have any proper garage so it is not an option.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on November 05, 2014, 05:06:44
Yes I see.

I use Classique Motors (Joe), to maintain my blue 280SL. I think I will also take this one to him after restoration as I feel Joe has greater specialist knowledge on these cars. He's a nice guy too. He will take far too long to work on the restoration - seems short on space, and is out of my way.

Rob
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on November 05, 2014, 07:54:00
Yes Joe is good for servicing but is oh so slow.  He has had my car for over two months to fix the Brake booster.  Hope to get it back tomorrow.

Garry
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: batman on November 05, 2014, 10:32:08
Good luck Garry for tomorrow!

I am still waiting for Joe to finish on mine (almost there I am told)

However, I now have another problem regarding getting a roadworthy certificate.

cheers
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on November 05, 2014, 10:38:22
Went through the same early this year when I had my brake booster rebuilt. Reckon he took 2 months then also. As much I would love to see your cars in the flesh I hope they aren't there when I drop off mine next week for a service ;D
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 05, 2014, 20:44:21
Kevin I'm not sure about the Farrow system. I have seen something similar used on boats and it looks pretty aggressive. Trouble with all that sort of thing I think is it is just so messy, at least with regular paint stripper it is easy to keep the car clean and tidy. Sandblasting makes a lot of mess which bothers me, but it is what it is.

I don't want to get the whole car media blasted as I'm nervous of the panels getting deformed, I saw a vw bus once that had been blasted and the shell was ruined. I guess like anything it is only as good as the one doing the job, and I am always nervous of how someone else would treat the car, it is also another reason I was reluctant to go for the dipping process as I have heard some horror stories, it may all be unfounded but I dont want to find out the hard way. Not only that, I haven't found anywhere local and all the big dipping firms are a long way from me, so it is all a bit of a rave. At least if I do the job myself then I can treat it right.

I'm hoping to start on the paint strip tomorrow night. I have refitted the hood and pretty much finished the masking. We have been stripping the paint off a 1959 Corvette in the booth so assuming we can get that finished tomorrow I can put the Mercedes I there and get cracking tomorrow night. Looking forward to seeing the car in bare metal.


Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: KevinC on November 05, 2014, 22:37:18
Scott,

Great feedback (and photos). On these blasting systems, I understand that because they utilize water in the blast, there is not near as much (if any) dust like with a sandblaster. Plus the water brings the surface temp down as opposed to raising it with the dry blaster. I have seen this one demonstrated in the US and you can actually "dial down" the percentage of abrasive (crushed glass) vs water and air volume. Any way, I thought if it worked on fiberglass boats, it could work on cars.

None the less. Your progress photos are great....keep them coming!

Kevin
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 09, 2014, 08:34:03
I sent a couple of small parts to the sandblasters with some Corvette parts the other day, amongst which were the exhaust manifolds. When they came back I gave them a good blow out and spent a relaxing hour in my garage treating them with calyx manifold dressing. I was going to get them treated by Zircotek but I have read a few reports of the coating coming off. This is what we use on Corvette manifolds and whilst it will need freshening up every couple of years it looks really good.

In the photos it looks black for some reason, but it is actually only slightly darker than the sandblasted finish, a real nice dull grey, just like raw cast iron. The first picture is of the raw sandblasted finish.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 09, 2014, 08:39:39
Had a very busy day yesterday. I have been trying to get the Mercedes in to the paint booth for a couple of days now but the corvette in there has taken forever to strip. I cleared it out of there yesterday morning and got to work, I wanted to get as much done as possible knowing it would have to come out Monday morning as I have a couple of engines to paint. I had done all the masking already so all that had to be done was cover the wheels and lay some card on the floor to catch all the muck.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 09, 2014, 08:47:19
And 10 very hard hours later it was all gone....

I have never had a car so easy to strip. within a few minutes of the stripper going on the paint was bubbling up and ready to scrape off. All in all each panel took around 3 separate treatments, the doors and trunk lid took 6 or 7 coats as there was some filler in them. I guess that is to be expected on aluminium panels, there are a couple of car parking dents in the doors and I think maybe someone opened the trunk against something or sat on it. Other than that it was all pretty straight forward. I have a pretty efficient method when it comes to this sort of work though, I am constantly putting stripper on different areas whilst I am scraping so there is no lost time waiting for stripper to go off.

These pictures are after the whole car has been scrubbed down with scothbrite pads soaked in thinners. The first wash gets rid of all the traces of primer, and neutralizes the stripper, then another one to make sure, and then a third quick washover to get all the panels clean. It's a pretty heady experience!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 09, 2014, 08:55:16
I'm really pleased with the condition of the body, rust free would have been better of course, but there were no more nasties found so that is a good thing. The only unexpected was a previous repair under the RH headlight where the bumper goes. So it is all good news. It is pretty much what I suspected when I bought the car, but there is always the fear of what lies beneath.

This was going to be the decider as to whether I carry on with the project or move it on to someone with deeper pockets than mine, so this is good news.

Next stage is to remove the bonnet, boot, and doors, remove the front and rear suspension and get the sandblasters out here. I will get them to do the dash and inside the car, in the engine compartment and the trunk floor. I will keep the blasting underneath localised to the areas that need repair or that have no undercoating on them. I would like to keep as much of the original undercoating intact.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 09, 2014, 09:03:00
And so that is it. I'll put some masking tape over the rusty areas on the body where I want the sandblasters to spot, and then I'll paint the whole car with Kurust so it doesn't go brown whilst I am working on it.

As an aside, when I have had some kurust on the go in the workshop I have been painting it on some of the rusty spots on the car, there was an are on top of the right hand fender that had been dented and had gone brown. When I thinner washed the car and scrubbed the kurust off the rust on the fender had pretty much gone, so it does work!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 09, 2014, 09:11:13
Scott amazing effort in a 10 hour period.  Fantastic!  Why did you strip it in the booth rather than out in the car park as a matter of interest. 

The car looks really really good.  I think you have dodged a big bullet.  As you say if it was much worse you would be into some serious time and money. 

I also like your philosophy of keeping all the factory under seal intact.  I took the same approach and had a few little patch ups that are a bit of extra time and effort are now almost indistinguishable from the factory material. 

Have you removed all the factory sound deadening material from inside the car?   I found most of my rust sign from the inside of the car under the tar mat.

Awesome progress!!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 09, 2014, 09:31:40
Thanks Andy. It was a long day, my hands were like claws when I got in last night and all I can smell is thinners...

We always strip indoors, it is too cold/damp/dark here most of the time to do much outdoors, this is where I am fortunate to have the workshop facility so I can do all this indoors, although 8 hours in to this job I was wishing I had worked harder at school and was able to pay someone else to do this...

All of the sound deadener has been removed and the metal is all excellent there, same as in the cowl under the fresh air vent. I expected there to be some rust as there was some sort of nest in there, but it is all like brand new, same behind the kick panels, rockers etc.

My wife has a 71 Karmann Ghia and when we bought that I had a local sheet metal guy replace the outer sills, what he didn't mention id that the heater channels were rotten and put the new sills straight over. I spent most of this summer redoing his work, and also replacing the heater channels, the time this all takes is massive so I am pretty lucky to have gotten away with just this on the Mercedes I think.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 09, 2014, 16:17:33
Curious as to why you want to keep the undercoating intact? This was not the best feature for these cars, and could trap moisture. Is this the undercoating (schutz) in the wheel wells and under and around the tank?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 09, 2014, 18:08:22
I don't really know why. I just thought it might be nice to keep as much of the original as possible. It also seemed to be important to marque experts that as many original features as possible are retained. Almost every buyers guide I read, albeit after the event, made much of a car having the original front fenders, spot welds etc, and that all body numbers match. I don't see it as any different with something like this. That being said I am thinking of a colour change, but I think if it is done right that shouldn't really affect the cars integrity or value.

I guess a lot of it depends on what I find after the suspension is removed and the underside is cleaned and inspected. If I wind up replacing all the floor pans then there won't be much of the original left, in which case I will scrape it all off so that it all matches, if there looks to be any issues there then again I'll remove it all and start again, but if it all looks perfect then I don't really see the point in disturbing it and making extra work for myself.

I think really I need to play it by ear on this one, the intention at the moment is to leave it be, but that can change in a heartbeat, it was never my intention to replace the fuel tank but it turns out I'm going to have to, nature of the beast with old cars I guess.

I don't know, maybe I am being a bit silly about it and the right thing to do is to get it all off and see what is there. Watch this space!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 09, 2014, 19:05:43
Scott, did you check in the box section in the left and right hand foot well directly in front of the A pillars.  They are a nasty hidden rust trap that deteriorate quickly if the rubber seals around the two removable front wheel arch panels are shot.  If the are rusty the only access is by taking off the front guard, or part off it.

Jonny,  all the underseal that I have ground off where there was a) either no sign of the underseal peeling or b) no sign of rust from the other side of the metal, typically the metal underneath has seemed to be in perfect condition.  If its lasted 50 years in this state why would you upset it risking introducing an inferior finish.  Opening steel to the atmosphere is a very risky thing if you don't know exactly what your doing.   Not only that you are removing an original factory feature.

The underseal is no longer available I believe.  I had to improvise and used dozens of layers of paintable hard chip coat.  

One of my favorites is seeing people blast the entire shell.  From the factory all the bare steel was treated with some sort of bare steel rust inhibitor that left a layer of protective zinc.  If you hand strip you will see it clearly.  The steel looks quite dark and dull.  If it isn't replaced its just another missing barrier.  Arguably the most important one?

Also agree with Scott that getting your car acid stripped could cause all sort of heinous issues in years to come with rust in crucial areas you cant get too.  Seams and box sections spring to mind.






Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: GGR on November 09, 2014, 22:15:08
Hello Scott,

the original undercoating tends to dry out and not stick completely to the metal anymore. Add cracks or porousness with age and moisture gets in between the undercoating and the metal, starting a rusting process that stays hidden. So it is very important to check very closely. My experience is the same as Andy's: where the undercoating was holding well, the metal under it was looking brand new. But I found surface rust where it was coming loose (this is a Texas car, considered "rust-free"). So I ended up leaving the undercoating in place where it was still OK (most of it) only addressing areas where it had come loose. Oil leaks can also make it come loose. I then coated all of it with POR 15 to seal it as a 40 year old undercoating has most chances to have become porous and let moisture through. Not fully original, but safe.

I also share Andy's point of view when it comes to stripping the car to bare metal. There are different opinions on this, but I am among the ones who believe that steel shouldn't be exposed unnecessarily for the reasons described by Andy (and because once exposed, the rust process starts immediately and no matter what some of it will be trapped under the primer and paint). On mine I only sanded to bare metal the areas in need of repair.

Nice job you're doing there, in any case!       
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 10, 2014, 17:01:23
Thanks for the clarification on the undercoating. Yes, being careful and watchful is the key. Tim Kidder from KK Mfg did a demo some years back at PUB in Ohio, and showed a number of the places in the chassis where rust can show up (Joe had a car tilted on its side for Tim to use for Show and Tell!).

As far as color change and such, there has been much written on the site about that. The market for these cars is not quite as finicky as the American muscle car crowd. If you do the color change, be sure to do all the places, i.e.,the dash etc. The search function can provide you with the various opinions voiced.

At the end of the day, it is your car, and only you can decide how you want to proceed, or what the goal is for the car. The posting will give you insights on all sides of the question.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 13, 2014, 07:10:14
I painted the bare steel body section with kurust to protect the metal whilst the car is being worked on. I need to try and find if there is a suitable product to paint on the aluminium to protect it from oxidisation and that is easy to remove when the car is ready for paint. I suppose it will be around 8-10 months before the car goes to the painter so I guess it will need something. Maybe the bodywork will go a bit faster but that is the timescale I have in mind.

I also took the valve cover off and cleaned the cam and oiled it all, I don't know if was remnant of steam cleaning or if it was rusty before as I couldn't get the valve cover off with the engine in the car. I suspect it is a bit of both as I had only had the engine running for short periods so there would have been a bit of condensation, but I would have expected the cam to be cleaner than this. There is a little bit of pitting on it but I cleaned it pretty well and will assess it further when the engine gets stripped. I sprayed everything with wd40, cleaned it all then poured engine oil over it all. My engine builder can't take it til March next year so it will have to sit a while. I have plenty to do anyway.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 13, 2014, 07:12:11
I removed the convertible top frame last night and will have a clean and a scrape in the storage bin ready for blasting. The lip of the drain channel around the storage bin looks messy, I can't imagine how it would have got bent out of shape like this but do they all look like this in there?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 13, 2014, 07:56:38
Scott,

I wouldn't stress too much about trying to temporarily treat the alloy components.  Just let them oxidize and then just before painting them hit them with the scotch pads and knock off the top layer of oxide.  The important thing with alloy is to ensure that just prior to applying the paint you have removed the oxide.  The advice I took was that you should try and paint within a couple of hours of this process.  I think it only took me 2 or so hours to scotch it off inside and out.  Important thing is to not paint on top of a heavy layer of oxide or it will likely separate in years to come. 

I think if you painted it with a temporary cover you would have even a bigger job trying to remove it for final paint.  Alloy is pretty good at protecting itself short term.

I painted mine with a special epoxy 2k primer formulated for alloy.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 13, 2014, 17:13:33
Can only guess that the soft top storage seal that fits in that channel has been changed several times over the life of the car, and that it was removed with less than optimal care. I changed the one in my 280 SL about a year ago, and it was a pain in the butt to get it out, but I tried to do it with minimal denting of the channel.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 13, 2014, 18:52:10
Ok that explains it. I didn't realise a seal pushed in there, I thought it was just a gutter.

Thanks for that, I'll tap it back into shape then.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 13, 2014, 19:41:47
Scott,  Have a good hard look at the gutter as its really prone to rusting out.  Get a little mirror and look at the underside of it.   Also a good thing to do is a trial fit up of a new OEM seal to make sure everything is ok.  Eventually you will definitely need one so may as well have it now.  If the gutter needs work then its better to do it now than after the fresh paint has gone on.   I made this mistake and its cost me.

I am wondering if the the out of shape gutter on your car is where fresh metal has been welded in and then bent because the seal didn't fit too well. 
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Paul & Dolly on November 13, 2014, 21:39:23
Scott,

Best to buy the OEM seal, and also read up in the Technical Manual here, about protecting it with plastic/laminate ect when lowering and raising folding the soft top.

Paul
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 14, 2014, 03:41:19
I will absolutely concur on getting the proper OEM seal for the soft top case seal. It may be a bit more cost, but the fit, and all the little channels and grooves are what you want to have in place.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 14, 2014, 08:03:06
I don't think the channel has been replaced/repaired although I will look a bit harder. I haven't seen any evidence of any previous welding at all on the car, save for one door hinge mounting on the door, and that looks to have been done very nicely, the only other repairs I have seen are a couple of bits of brazing on the bottom of the headlight bowl, and a little on the front valence which you will see on earlier pictures after I stripped the paint, so as far as I can see the car is untouched in that respect.

I too have read about using OEM seals, and this is something I plan to do. I am a bit unsure at the moment where to buy parts from, I spoke to the local MB agent and they can get me quite a bit, it's just knowing what to get, for example I will need a new tail light panel, do I get this from MB or aftermarket, I suspect that the part supplied by MB may well be the same part as the aftermarket suppliers? Or do Mercedes actually make these panels?

Certainly in the Corvette world there is a huge disparity in quality from one manufacturer to the other, we wont touch Ecklers parts for example. I'm hoping that these very expensive parts will fit a lot better than the repro stuff I am used to. The Mustang parts were even worse, I had to replace the doors on my fastback and they were completely different sid eto side. I spent weeks adding metal to the door edges to make the gaps come right. That's one blessing with the Mercedes, the gaps are all very nice to start with and none of those panels need replacing.

I will have the sandblaster go over all of the areas I haven't stripped so he will do that channel, the soft top bin, floors inside and out, windscreen frame etc etc so if there is any rust lurking in those areas it will show itself.

It is also good advice to prefit everything before the car goes to the painter, I do that as a matter of course on all the cars we work on to save any heartache after the car is painted.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on November 14, 2014, 09:35:29
Scott
For bits, try the MB dealership (Jacskons) in Poole
Best classic merc parts in the dealer network - Shaun is yer man
http://www.mercedes-benzofpoole.co.uk/content/united-kingdom/retail-sandown/mercedes-benz-of-poole/en/desktop/passenger-cars/service-repair/mercedes-benz-classic-parts.html

Stickandrudderman on here also has some parts in stock. Worth a call for unusual items.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: KevinC on November 14, 2014, 21:32:58
Scott,

If the fenders currently do not have the headlight bezel alignment notches, this may be a good time to work them in.

Kevin
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 17, 2014, 07:27:03
Yes that is certainly my intention. There is a trace of them but certainly not very pronounced. I take it these were on cars right from the start of production and not something that developed? I had a look at the motoring investment website, and when I was at the NEC classic car show last year I tried to look at a few, the fender notches I saw on cars there varied quite dramatically.

I took a closer look at my soft top channel, and it has never had work done, so I guess someone was a little heavy handed as suggested. I tried carefully to remove to decal on the side of the soft top bin but a corner broke, I still have it all so am hoping it will clean and look ok when reinstalled.

I also looked at the chromeshraub website and it looked on there like all the soft top bin latch hardware should be gold cad plate? Mine was black so I guess someone has been in there with a rattle can, the decal had overspray on it so wouldn't be surprised. I'd like to make the car correct, but I don't want to turn it into something unusable.

The chrome on my soft top frame will need to be redone too, this looks to me like it was only a dull chrome finish, not bright chrome?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Larry & Norma on November 17, 2014, 08:35:11
A rub over with very fine wire wool can work wonders with the soft top chrome.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on November 17, 2014, 08:49:32
Quote from: Scottcorvette
.../.. it looked on there like all the soft top bin latch hardware should be gold cad plate? Mine was black .../...
Black is okay and original. The repro parts offered today come in a yellow plated finish - to be sprayed black if you or the restorer chooses to "go original"
/Hans in Sweden
.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 17, 2014, 17:34:53
So the black is correct then?

The chrome on the bulk of the soft top frame would clean, unfortunately there are a few spots all over it that wont so it will need to be redone. I will talk to my plater about it and get his input. It looks to me like it was never bright chrome like on all the rest of the trim, but a matt finish, more of a flashover.

When I bought the car, as well as doing 'man maths' to make it all come right in my head, and rationalize the purchase, I also told myself that all the chrome on the car 'just needed a bit of wire wool', that's also what I told Ronni (in my head it was true!) and when the car arrived it was clearly a very different story.......Fortunately she is a very experienced restorer so knows what it is all about, having served her apprenticeship with her father restoring Spitfire aircraft, and then having worked with me the last 10 years or so, so I didn't get in trouble.

The fact of the matter is though that the more I do to the car, the nicer everything else has to be, you can't put less than perfect trim back on a freshly painted car etc etc, so everything has to be right.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 20, 2014, 08:26:45
A little bit more progress, I have a young guy work part time for me and I set him to work on stripping the inside of the doors. Seeing as it is likely that I will be changing the colour of this car I want to eliminate all traces of maroon. I hate when you take a door panel off and the door is a different colour inside to the rest of the car.

We also removed the rear deck and stripped the rest of that and the inside. I'll take the doors off the car today and strip the front edges by the hinges, then steam clean the doors and deck inside to make sure that all traces of stripper is gone.

We have also scraped the sound deadener material from the inside of the soft top bin as it was in pretty poor shape. The metal underneath is good though.

Next stage is to remove the bonnet and boot lid and strip the inside of those. I will need to make sure I can get a replacement for the original tyre pressure decal as I don't think I will be able to save it. It has already been masked round once. Same goes for the diamond pattern sound deadener on the trunk floor. If I can't get a replacement then I'll leave it in situ and paint round it. I'd prefer to replace it though. I'm assuming the trunk floor would have been painted then the sound deadener applied?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 20, 2014, 08:28:05
There is also the latest video update here for anyone interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoGW3HzrYDI&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 20, 2014, 08:49:41
Scott,

Awesome progress.  I think you have a very sound shell.  Probably quite a few envious members pawing over your photos and vids.  Really very little to do body wise by the looks.  Not many pagodas around with that little rust on original panel work.  You may have well stuck it very very lucky.

A few areas that you might want to look at.  My doors had several hairline cracks around key stress areas like the door pulls.  Easy to fix with the tig but a real pain if you find them after you paint.  I thought I could see one on the rear of your passengers door.  

Also a word of caution.  I noticed you still havn't stripped the paint off the B pillars.  The B pillars of your car are more than likely full of lead from the factory.  Whatever you do dont be tempted to pull it out.  Absolute nightmare to reinstate.  This was the factory adjustment to get the door gaps correct.

Love seeing your vids in particular please keep them coming.  Cant wait for the next installment.  I think you will have caught up with me within no time looking at your progress.



Also
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on November 20, 2014, 08:51:53
Wow!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on November 20, 2014, 11:34:50
Great photo of the inside of the door.  Never seen one clean like that.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: KevinC on November 21, 2014, 02:22:12
I hate when you take a door panel off and the door is a different colour inside to the rest of the car.


Scott...kudos to you for this statement.

Now to the group...is the inside of the soft top compartment black or Tief Dunkengrau (very dark grey) like the inside of the trunk?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 21, 2014, 07:29:50
Thanks fellas.

Andy, I was going to sandblast the rear door shuts originally but figured there may be lead in there so will hand strip those, I'll hand strip the bulk of the paint off the front door shuts too, same with the dash, so as not to warp any of it. Also I think the crack that you can see on the door is actually a piece of wire that is wrapped round the door that held a spring to return the door handle. I need to cut that off, the doors themselves are near perfect.

I finished stripping the paint off the doors yesterday so that's done. There are a couple of broken screws in the aluminium that I'll get Ronni to drill out for me, she is better at that sort of work than I am. Those doors are a lovely thing though eh! and so light!!

I must admit I really am getting a lot of pleasure from working on this car so far. When I was doing the Mustang every single thing I did uncovered more grief which is pretty soul destroying, and that is something I am not getting on this car - so far....

With regard stripping the inside of the doors, there was a lot of silicone sealer on the frame work where the door panels had been stuck on (really!) and the inside skin was covered in sticky residue from the sound deadener so there wasn't really much option but to strip them. The paint is coming off the car pretty easy so it's not an unpleasant task and will make the end result so much nicer.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 21, 2014, 07:55:22
With regard the colour of the decklid underneath. Mine sure looked like satin black to me, There was a lot of the original paint showing underneath. Same with the trunk, someone has repainted in there but I took the latch off yesterday and it really looks like black, I'll give it a clean and have another look in day light.

The paint is something that is really bothering me. I'm worrying about how to finish the floorpan, the interior metalwork, the engine bay, trunk lid etc etc.

For example on the picture below it is pretty clear that the car was originally maroon, then I think was painted silver, then red. But on the hinge the red goes straight over the maroon, but there is silver under the head of the bolts...The silver showing on the hinge is the plating. I found no silver paint on the hinges, doors, anywhere. The only place i have found silver is on the windscreen frame and on the inside of the body where there are chrome cappings, everywhere else has red straight on top of maroon.

So my question is did the factory paint silver the areas where the chrome was, eg tops of b pillars, windscreen frame etc?? Also should the door check strap be body colour or bare?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 21, 2014, 08:01:30
My VIN plate was riveted onto the B post upside down, that can't be right can it? I did a quick search but couldn't find it. It is also pretty scruffy.

I read that the classic centre will send a replacement. I'll drop them an email.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on November 21, 2014, 08:26:59
Vin Plate in RHD is on the firewall on LH side. you probably have the holes still there in the firewall.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 21, 2014, 08:38:47
Hi Garry

Mine is a left hand drive USA car originally.

Your engine bay looks lovely.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 21, 2014, 14:31:30
The door check strap should be bare, not body color.

I would guess that the dark inside the top case would be the very dark gray. I don't have access to that right now,but I am sure other will be chiming in.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: KevinC on November 21, 2014, 14:58:23
With regard the colour of the decklid underneath. Mine sure looked like satin black to me, There was a lot of the original paint showing underneath. Same with the trunk, someone has repainted in there but I took the latch off yesterday and it really looks like black, I'll give it a clean and have another look in day light.


Scott, when the body shop painted my 280SL "project car" last year, they ordered flat black paint for the trunk. After some discussion on that I sent them this excerpt from the Tech Manual and they ordered the correct color accordingly...

"The trunk of M-B´s in the 60's (like W113) is actually not black, but a very dark gray. It can be ordered via Mercedes dealerships. Ordering code is 000 986 67 33 - 7164. The "000 986 67 33" is the part number of a one component (not catalyzed) paint sold by MBAG, and the "7164" is the color code for this deep dark gray. It is semi-gloss."

When you see one painted flat black next to one like this, you can tell the difference. I would guess that the soft top compartment would be the same color.

Kevin
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 22, 2014, 08:15:05
Dark grey it is then...I'll order a litre from the MB dealer.

I stripped the door shuts last night which was a pretty unpleasant task, and I'm glad I followed Andy's advice on that one, there is a lot of lead in the shut which the sandblaster would have damaged, I'll tape over it all with a couple of layers of duct tape when they come to do the floor.

As I was stripping I could see what looked like a darker colour to the steel which I guess is the rustproofing Andy was talking about, made me wonder if blasting was such a good idea, and maybe I should hand strip everything to try and preserve this treatment as much as possible.

There was also a lot of factory undercoating on the seam where the upper and lower rocker joins, there were some little rust spots under the paint on the sill, although only surface but I think it has reinforced my feelings that blasting the remainder of the car is the way to go. I'll get them to go over the front door shuts very lightly to de-rust them.

It is pretty unlikely that this car will ever see rain again unless by accident and I will protect the steel pretty well by injecting rust preventer into all the box sections after it is painted. It is also making me think that maybe stripping all the undercoating off is the way to go, but I'll reserve judgement on that one. I also don't think I could cope emotionally with hand stripping the whole shell inside and out.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 22, 2014, 09:12:09
Scott,

If you take the bead blaster to the door jam make sure you securely cover over the hole that takes the door open switch.  The box section behind it is impossible to gain access to unless you get your tin opener into action.  Sand and cavity wax dont mix too well.  It looks as if you have done a beautiful job of stripping it chemically.  Exactly what I did.  Why dont you just take some scotch pads soaked with thinners to it.  The only area I blasted was the seam welds right at the bottom of the pillars which were a bit rusted and impossible to get to with sand paper or scotch.  

Also why do you want to strip the dash.  If its sound why don't you just give it a good scotch and sand and over paint.   I had the same dilemma but in the end decided against it as I wasn't really gaining anything as its all hidden and also the steel was all in beautiful condition.  Again if you blast you risk putting it back in a condition inferior to what you started with.  If its solid and you overcoat it with more paint arnt you further protecting it with an even better/thicker barrier.    99% of the interior is covered up so protection must surely take precedence over cosmetics in here.

I blew about three good coats of zinc rich 2k epoxy all up under the dash and all over the floor pans and firmly believe that I have something now that was far better than when it left the factory.

I am the same as you in that i can not stand to work on a car where you look under the dash or inside the door and its a completely different color.  I am also a believer in that if a coating has been on for almost 50 years and shows no sign of deterioration that its better left alone.  Am interested to here your thoughts on it.  My judgment is based on speculation and logic where your is on practice which is often far more valuable and accurate.

I am also interested in the coating your putting on your external panels.  I have been using POR15 metal ready to replace or enhance the factory zinc coating.  I actually was amazed how well it protects bare steel with no other coatings.  I left test pieces exposed for weeks with no sign of rust.  Guess your using something similar.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on November 22, 2014, 09:36:40
Another mistake I made when doing this part of the car was to not pay attention to all the small screw holes that hold on the chrome and ali garnish.  Quite a few of them over the years have been butchered and over sized especially around the doors and windscreen.  Some of the screws were rusted in when I took stuff apart and I had to drill them out.

It was pretty gutting when I came to put everything back together to find this sort of stuff which is so easily welded up and re-drilled.   Luckily it only caught me on two or three screws but enough to make me swear.   Its really difficult to find screws with slightly larger thread with the same smaller head to match everything else. I thought I would just point it out in case your screw extraction went worse than mine.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on November 22, 2014, 20:18:26
A tip:
When you are dis=assembling a car and you come across a seized or broken screw or bolt or stud or a misalignment of some kind, attend to that problem NOW and re-assemble the part to your satisfaction. It's much better to do this stuff in the early stages so that when you come to re-assemble with your new interior, new chrome and new paint everything goes smoothly.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 23, 2014, 13:16:50
Yes that's all good advice. I always build up a car with all its trim once the body work is done before it goes to paint. That way any oversize or misaligned holes can be rectified, also any poor trim fit can be dealt with. This is a photo of the mustang part way through its paint preparation getting the trim pre fitted.

The only grief I had with screws were the chrome strips along the bottom of the car, everything else came off real easy.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 23, 2014, 13:48:10
Andy the coating I am using Is Hammerite kurust, it just protects the metal whilst it is bare, it can be painted over but the bulk of it gets sanded off.

There are quite a few areas on this car that are starting to get a it rusty so I would feel happier getting the floor and structure blasted. I'm with you on keeping existing protection if it is good, but it isn't good enough on this car to leave it.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on November 23, 2014, 17:39:33
The 4th image is a really common sight. I drill a drain hole in that corner to prevent water accumulating there.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 23, 2014, 17:46:24
Thank you, yes that's a good idea. I'll do that.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: GGR on November 23, 2014, 20:07:03
The 4th image is a really common sight. I drill a drain hole in that corner to prevent water accumulating there.

It is indeed a common sight, but I fail to understand where the water is coming from. Same thing in the trunk: I always find the trunk floor wet under the carpet after it rained. I can't figure out where the water is entering.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: jameshoward on November 23, 2014, 23:09:53
Have you checked the drainage from the soft top box? Pour water down the drain holes and it should come out at the sills. If not, that could be part of the problem.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: GGR on November 23, 2014, 23:21:52
Have you checked the drainage from the soft top box? Pour water down the drain holes and it should come out at the sills. If not, that could be part of the problem.

Even with the hard top on? I end up with water in trunk even with the hard top on. Trunk seal is new, properly positioned and glued.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on November 24, 2014, 01:27:19
You can get water in from around the B pillar caps, even with the hard top on that goes into the soft top box and then leaking out bad drain pipes into the trunk.

I also suspect perished front rubber hose of the drains from the air intake and the soft top box drains at the rear are the two biggest areas where water will access either trunk or front floor.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: jameshoward on November 24, 2014, 07:36:42
You can get water in from around the B pillar caps, even with the hard top on that goes into the soft top box and then leaking out bad drain pipes into the trunk.

I also suspect perished front rubber hose of the drains from the air intake and the soft top box drains at the rear are the two biggest areas where water will access either trunk or front floor.

My experience supports Garry's comments completely. Hard top or no hard top. Don't forget the way that negative pressure changes water flow on a car moving quickly in the rain.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: GGR on November 24, 2014, 08:53:07
OK, I will check. Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 24, 2014, 16:54:40
Another place for entry to the trunk is from a bad/poor seal on the tail lights. My mechanic mentioned this to me after he finished all the re-assembly work on my 250 SL this summer.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 27, 2014, 07:51:08
Stripped the underside of the hood and trunk lid yesterday. I have ordered a new body cart for the shell to sit on that will mount to our rotisserie, that won't be here for a few weeks but I may strip the suspension off this weekend. Depends on weather as I have a few jobs to do at home and it's rained every Sunday for ages here so I may have to sacrifice a Saturday at work.

What's the best way here. Am I better to remove the subframes as a whole and then strip them or is it easier to dismantle the suspension piece by piece on the car? I have a four post lift and jacks so access isn't really a problem. What I don't have though is anything that will hold a subframe solidly to work on. Don't really need anything like that with Corvettes. The only thing I can think of is to strap the crossmember to one of the ramp runners.

On another note, my left hand inside door handle is broken, anyone have one? I just need the chrome part.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: GGR on November 27, 2014, 11:47:26
I usually take the suspension springs out by fitting a jack under the control arm, undoing the bolts and lowering gently the jack. This works when the car is complete by using all its weight. In your case, you may want to strap the body down.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 28, 2014, 08:28:42
That's the method I would normally use on a Corvette so that's what I went with, just as well I did, those lower A arm bolts are tight!!

Got the body on jack stands and lowered the jack to get to the A arms and the subframe came down with the jack, the subframe mounts were completely shot, a quick tour round the technical manual shows this to be a common problem. I will replace/rebuild all of the suspension components anyway.

Up to now the car has come apart pretty easy but she's starting to bite me now. I started on the rear but can't get the shocks off so will need heat on those, same with the muffler heat shield, so I have to wait until there is someone else at the shop to give me a hand. I do this in the evenings after work and I don't use heat/sparks/weld if no one is going to be there for at least an hour.

Also to revisit an earlier topic, now pretty much everything is off the car and it is all clean, I think I will remove all the original undercoating. It isn't in as good a shape as I first thought. There are too many patches where it needs to come off that I think I will. Dipping is starting to look more attractive now!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 28, 2014, 08:32:53
Couple of the wheel wells.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on November 28, 2014, 16:30:08
Looks like great progress. Curious, was the front cross member (red bar under the grill opening) replaced? That is a spot prone to rusting, and in the photo looks to be in very good condition.

Wheel wells also look pretty clean.

Remember, whatever color you ultimately choose, the wheel wells are painted in body color.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 28, 2014, 21:22:06
No that's the original crossmember. I can't see any part of this car that has been replaced. Mechanically it seems very unmessed about with. It's quite nice. You can tell when you are working on an original car and something where someone has been there before, and on this one, for the most part, no one has.

I carried on with the front suspension strip a bit tonight, got the upper and lower a arms off, callipers and brake lines and one disc. I'll get the rest of it off in the morning as it is Saturday so playday, although I have a customer coming to collect a car and another one collecting a transmission, I have jobs to do at home, and dog sitting for my mum on Sunday......Not much time left to pagode this weekend....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on November 28, 2014, 22:43:35
An interesting new word! "Pagode" [verb] the act of repairing a pagoda.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on November 28, 2014, 23:49:01
I still own the registration “Pagode", only trouble is I drive my Pagoda on historic plates at $110 a year.  Put the Pagoda plate on and I have to add $600 for the privilege per year >:( >:(

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 03, 2014, 08:17:32
So did you have to pay for the licence plate as well? Seems a bit harsh having to pay extra annually. At least in the uk car tax is free for pre 74 cars.

I got the rest of the suspension off on Saturday morning and last night. Ronni and I man(and woman)handled the diff and rear axle out this morning and got the car on a dolly, that was no mean feat I can tell you. All I have to do now is get the stuck rear shocks out and the stuck heat shield but I can do that at my leisure. I wanted to get the car back in the booth for tomorrow as I have my young lad in who can paint strip the dash and a few other bits.

It's all gone reasonably well, I made up a spring compressor to get the compensator spring out, my knuckles are a bit raw but I'm sure it will all be worthwhile! I showed ronni my home made tool and she rolled her eyes and marvelled at my blatant disregard for health and safety....I thought it looked ok! It was all pretty straightforward though, the rear axle looks a pretty complicated bit of kit compared to what I'm used to, although I think that is just a lack of familiarity, but once again 113.org has been an invaluable source.

Everything will get steam cleaned now in readiness for bushing removal and then sandblasting. The a arm bushes and track rod ends all look like new, but  will reserve judgement until all is cleaned. I would rather do it all now than have to do more work once the car is complete.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on December 03, 2014, 08:46:20
Garry,

You must have ordered that plate in the past few years as when i was trying to come up with a cool looking personalised plate I noticed that "PAGODE" was available. In the end I bought "ASL 280" for a mere $300 from a guy who was a MB club member and had planned on buying a 280SL but realised his dream was too far away with the onset of children (thankfully didn't stop me ;D). Looks so much nicer with black and white plates (wish the heritage plates were B&W)....or better still with the UK plate that was on the car when I bought it. Further footnote - I immediately sold the UK plate (COX 976) for GBP1800 to a broker who presumably sold it for a lot more. I still cant work out why anyone would pay so much for a plate that didn't appear to be special in any way?

Scott - you are making great progress on the car. I'm too embarrassed to post photo's of my current resto - I'm afraid you and Andy put me to shame. Have you decided on a colour yet?

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 24, 2015, 08:09:01
I've been too busy at work to really do much with this lately but got back into it last weekend.

Rob i haven't decidsed on a colour yet, I keep hovering between silver, grey, or blue, at the moment favourite is 387H blue but that could change yet.....

I have stripped the front and rear suspension fully now. Everything seemed in not bad shape, the main bush on the diff pivot had had it but that was about it. The trailing arm bushes were all in pretty good shape but I will renew them as a matter of course, same with all the rubbers on the suspension. Even the diff bellows seemed reasonably supple surprisingly but that will all get renewed. I'll drop the diff into my guys next weekend for them to look at. The oil was pretty manky that came out so a freshen up wouldn't go amiss. It also was caked in muck so has obviously been leaking in the past.

I guess it would be prudent to replace the rear wheel bearings at this stage too even though they feel ok, past experience tells me that even if it seems ok now the chances are when you start using the car it will fail....

On the front suspension it was a similar case, the front wheel bearings will need replacement, the track rod ends feel nice but the boots are split so they will need replacing. The steering idler seems good, the steering box feels nice but leaks badly so that will need an overhaul. I'll do kingpins and bushes too whilst it's all apart.

I stripped the propshaft too, the U/J's felt a bit graunchy and you'll see why....I won't rebuild this yet as I still have an idea I'd like to put a 5 speed in the car if funds allow and if I can find all the parts necessary.

So that's all the suspension parts pretty much ready for sandblasting.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 24, 2015, 08:19:33
So today's task is to get the body bolted to it's cradle. I brought a new body cart in from the states that will bolt to our rotisserie and I need to make up some mount brackets for it.

I am planning on using the front and rear bumper brackets, the rear shock absorber mounts in the tower, and the front subframe mounts. I haven't got the rear shocks out yet so will need to have a look at that area and see if it seems strong enough. Failing that I'll have to use the jacking points. Only problem is I have repairs to do around that area so the supports will be in the way.

It is a nice piece of kit though, I can drop individual mounts out the way so I can always do my repairs and then move the supports to the jacking pints. I am planning on having the car painted on this cart as well, so once the floor pan is painted I can move the supports around so that the painter can get everywhere.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: GGR on January 24, 2015, 09:28:53
Nice progress!

When it comes to replacing rubber parts, be careful with some aftermarket ones. They are not as durable as they should, and they also can be softer which creates handling problems (rear axle, trail arms and front axle).
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 03, 2015, 07:46:25
I'm planning on using genuine parts as much as possible where finances allow. I have just had my first shipment of parts arrive from MB and it all seems very nice quality, I got new floor pans and a tail light panel, a couple of new emblems, all genuine MB. I also bought a repro door mirror from them and the difference in quality is marked. Some parts just seem wildly expensive though, I ordered a new main pivot for the diff and it was over £200 - and is it really that much better than the SLS one at 97 euros? It was the only part I didn't ask the price on so lesson learnt there.

I have sent my steering wheel away to have a new rim moulded on and had stripped the horn pad. I ordered a new one from MB and it is very lovely but is missing the chrome ring from around the emblem, I may try and fit mine but don't want to screw up the new one so I'll sleep on it. Compared to the diff pivot I thought it was good value so I guess these things even themselves out.

My chrome plater called and said he didn't think I'd be happy with the bumpers so am debating whether to buy repro or proceed with the chroming, new MB bumpers are out the question as the cost is prohibitive. I have the same problem with the grille shell. I guess I should go new MB with that but I need to pace myself here.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 03, 2015, 07:56:02
So the current state of play is that the shell is mounted to the cradle but could do with lining up on it a bit better. I'll need to get it under the hoist and get it aligned on there better before I start doing any metalwork. At the moment I am into scraping underseal off.

My original plan was to leave the original undercoating on but the more I looked at it I could see this wasn't a viable option so it is all coming off. I have found a couple of extra holes so I guess is the right thing to do, I keep thinking to myself I should have just had it dipped but I don't think there is any point now. My fears about dipping still stand though.

I am probably going to have the underside sandblasted but keep thinking about the original rustproofing by MB, the blasting will take that off but there are quite a few areas under there that need attention so I think may be the best way forward. I will protect the metal pretty well and the car wont see the rain on purpose so I'm sure it will be fine.

It's looking pretty crappy under there though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 03, 2015, 07:59:09
Few more of underneath.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on February 03, 2015, 08:39:28
Scott. Hate to agree but yes, it's a bit crappy under there...

There's been many far worse but you weren't putting the time and cash into fixing those. I promised you I'd bring mine up to say hello but the salt under the snow argues against it this weekend.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 03, 2015, 19:53:31
Yes the weather here is lousy. I must admit I get very jealous when I read about all the balmy winter drives that everyone seems to be taking in their Pagodas......

The trouble is when I saw this car a lot of this rot had been covered up, it was described as a 'largely rust free straightforward restoration project' I really did have rose tinted spectacles on and didn't look hard enough or do enough research, but it was a spur of the moment thing and as they say, buy in haste, repent at leisure.....but, I am in it now and will make it lovely.

I went back to the same auction this weekend, will I never learn? and came away a very nice 1972 Fiat 130 coupe, 41,000 miles from new and apart from an older respray, very original and very nice indeed. I filled it up with gas only for it to leak out again so now is in the workshop with the tank removed. It is lovely to drive though and I think will give me an enjoyable summer. I want to take my wife and mum away for a weekend to France shortly and I can't think of a better way to travel.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on February 04, 2015, 18:43:06
That's a proper 1970s velour interior! Sweet.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: AGT on February 06, 2015, 14:46:40
Scott

That is a lovely car. Let me know when you are done with it. I can think of a very good home.

Best regards
Andrew

1966 230SL
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 22, 2015, 04:59:30
Well if it is something you are interested in let me know and we'll see if we can get something together. It was never bought as a long term thing for me, just one I wanted to get off my bucket list, and the more I looked round the car the more I liked it. I guess I could always look for something else for the French trip.

I would very much like another Citroen SM but don't know if I am really brave enough to go that route again, they are very maintenance heavy and not a lot of room in the back.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 22, 2015, 05:07:29
So it has been a productive week on the Mercedes. My Saturday boy had a week off college so I put him to work on scraping the rest of the undercoating off and cleaning the underside of the car. It is all bare now and ready for the sandblaster to do his thing. I was going to have him just blast spots but there are lots of little bits that need doing so I will just have him hit the whole thing.

I was sold some sort of zinc based primer/coating a while back so I may look into using that if it is still any good. I'd like to protect this as best I can. There has been no more nasties found, there was a few small spots of light rust in places but nothing to crazy. I think this was the right way to go though. It has been very labour intensive and if I hadn't already stripped the paint may have revisited the dipping thing but I still have my reservations on that one.

As soon as I have figured out what primer I'll use I'll organise the blasters to come and do the floors and engine bay. All the suspension components are stripped ready to blast so there is quite a bit for them to do.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 22, 2015, 05:24:09
I spent yesterday getting the engine dismantled enough to go to my machinist. I am scheduled in with him for March and he'll have it 2-3 months I guess so it will be ready long before I need it but it won't come to any harm in storage and it spreads the cost out a bit.

My engine experience is pretty much Chevy V8's, I have done bits and pieces to various other classics I have had but I was a little bit apprehensive about getting into this. It all came apart very easily though so I feel a bit more relaxed about the reassembly. Maybe that statement will bite me.

The car is showing 80,000 odd miles and the pistons are marked 81.99 mm so I guess are the originals. It didn't look like it had been apart before. I doubt I will get away with a hone and new rings but fingers crossed, the bores did look in nice condition. If it were a small block and pistons were a couple of hundred dollars a set I'd just go 1st over size as a matter of course but having done a bit of research - yikes.....still, if it needs them then it needs them. I am pretty philosophical about this sort of thing, it just means the project might take a little longer.

I am having a bit of trouble getting the water pump apart and I can't see how to get the pulley off - help!

I only took photos as memory joggers so they are a bit random but heres a couple
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 22, 2015, 05:39:43
The other concern I have is the camshaft, it was a bit pitted so may need to be replaced or re-profiled. Again I would normally replace this as a matter of course but a Chevy cam is $160....

The engine ran quite well though with no unseemly knocks or rattles so hopefully will be reasonably straightforward. This is the state of play now and this is as far as I go. The short block will go to my machinist and he will strip and do his measurements, he'll re-bore if necessary and grind the crank etc. I'll get him the parts and he will reassemble back to this point and rebuild the head. I'll take over from there.

I would normally pull the harmonic balancer too but I left it on there for him, and I have no means of pulling the distributor drive gear off so hopefully he can handle that also.

Aren't the pistons tiny!!!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 22, 2015, 05:49:35
I will shortly be sending all my calliper and power steering cores back to the USA and I was going to get in touch with Jerry Fairchild industries to get my injection pump rebuilt. I had it in mind to send the cold start valve and throttle body too.

No.6 injector was dry when I took them out. I haven't blown through the lines yet to see if they are blocked but it didn't look like it had had gas near it for many years, all the others were very wet so I will ask him about those. I don't know if they can be stripped and cleaned or if they have to be replaced.

I think the problem must be a blocked line or something wrong with the pump not getting fuel to no.6 - I only had the engine running a couple of times but it sounded fine so knowing now it was only running on 5 then it should be a very lovely thing when all rebuilt and everything working as it should

And so it goes on.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: jameshoward on February 22, 2015, 10:51:36
Just out of interest, why send these to the US? The shipping alone would surely pay for a chunk of the cost were you to send it to some experts in Europe, of which there are several. I think some of the German firms would be impossible to beat for quality work, and shipping costs would be lower. Not sure about labour costs.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Naj ✝︎ on February 22, 2015, 11:10:04

I was going to get in touch with Jerry Fairchild industries to get my injection pump rebuilt. I had it in mind to send the cold start valve and throttle body too.

No.6 injector was dry when I took them out. I haven't blown through the lines yet to see if they are blocked but it didn't look like it had had gas near it for many years, all the others were very wet so I will ask him about those. I don't know if they can be stripped and cleaned or if they have to be replaced.


Talk to Fred Pentecost about the fuel injection items. He used to own tower Bridge diesels but now has all the machines in his back garden.
He is in East London (0208 524 2973). He has repaired a couple of pumps for me.

There are several caliper reconditioners in the UK

I would look for the 230 pistons and bearings before doing any machining.

Naj
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 22, 2015, 12:46:31
When I buy corvette callipers, power steering pumps, rams and valves they all have a core charge on them, once every 18 months or so I send them all back and get my core charges refunded so ill just put my mercedes stuff in the crate with them and have my guys in Michigan ship them wherever. I probably have 150 callipers to send back! I would also like them restoring cosmetically and generally that sort of thing is more prevalent in the us than in the uk.

Also because I am so used to dealing with America and I get a shipment every month it is automatic for me to use that as my first port of call. I guess it is habit more than anything. Sending the parts to the usa with my shipment and having them sent back to the uk in my monthly shipment won't cost me any extra whereas sending it all to Germany would, I also speak American really well and my German is not great.....

That being said I will call the guy you mention and have a talk with him. I will need to find a place in the uk to rebuild the brake booster and master cylinder, maybe the callipers too.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 11, 2015, 20:18:19
Pretty exciting stuff, I took the engine to my machinist today for him to start work on. Initial thoughts are that a new cam will be needed or re-profile this one. new rockers and mount studs, maybe there is a better replacement camshaft for a bit more performance?

The diff has had a clean bill of health which is good news, I am just waiting for new gaskets to arrive for that so it can be reassembled, I have ordered trailing arm bushes etc from MB, then I can reassemble the rear end and put it into storage until needed.

I haven't had the floor pan etc sandblasted yet as the blasters are busy with other things and I still haven't decided on what paint to use. I am still trying to decide on what to finish the underside with. The underside of my transmission mount is a sort of mushroom colour, this was the same colour as under the undercoating, should the undercoating be painted this colour too, or is it cream/white?

I want to use the same brand/product throughout and at the moment it is between PPG or Cromax/Dupont, or maybe Glasurit. Trouble is I am too busy during the day to really spend much time talking to paint reps, my Corvette workaday really does interfere with my Pagoding....

There isn't that much getting done at the moment, I am busy in the evenings putting Ronni's Karmann Ghia back together after the repaint, so I only have Saturdays on the Mercedes, I think once the sandblasting is done and the sealer applied things will start to move on.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: paults1 on March 12, 2015, 02:40:50
Under body must be the same as the body. Same for engine compartment.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 12, 2015, 07:59:17
My car was originally maroon and the only part that definitely had been painted body colour was the transmission mount, and that only on the outside, and clearly not whilst on the car. These are pictures of the underbody before the undercoating was stripped, it shows a creamy beige colour, with some body colour overspray and some blackout, although even after steam cleaning it was pretty dirty.

Inside the car is a different matter, the bulk of it is a mid grey like the back of the wheels with maroon overspray everywhere, and some cream cover over. Underneath seems more of a creamy colour, and that seems to be what I have seen on various photos and on the motoring investments website. I'd like to get a definitive answer on what it actually is though.

I'll have to do some more research, it can take as long to find out how it should look as to do the job sometimes!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on March 12, 2015, 16:13:10
The transmission mount plate should be body color, it should also have the body number stamped, as on the trailing edge of the hood (and the top cover case). The underside of the car is usually the cream/gray  (not exactly sure on that). It would not have come from the factory fully painted in body color. There would have been some overspray from the body color, I think that is what you can see on the Motoring Investment cars. The wheel wells should be body color, as should the engine bay.

Go to the search function, use "underside" as the search criteria and limit the search to topic only, and you should get three hits, the information is spelled out in a bit more detail than I have listed above, but in the same vein.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 15, 2015, 19:20:35
As part of the preparations for the sandblasting I wanted to remove the centre section of floorpan so we can blast the inside of the seat mount crossmember, I also wanted to remove the rear light panel, or at least most of it so the inner panel can get blasted. It looked a bit rusty so I didn't want to have the whole car blasted then have to clean that section by hand once I had removed the rear panel.

It all came relatively easily although I had had a bucket full of drilling spot welds out by the end of it. Again I was impressed by the build quality of the car with the rubber between the outer and inner panel, and around the exhaust aperture.

This is the first time I have really used our new rotisserie in anger, I had only really used it for cleaning and painting under a corvette upto now but I have been using it fairly consistently on the mercedes, it is such a brilliant piece of kit and I would recommend anyone doing this kind of work to buy or build something like this.

Ours was pretty expensive as it is designed to work safely on Corvettes so is a pretty heavy duty piece of kit to keep the fiberglass body held rigid but I think something could be made to support a monocoque steel body for a sensible amount of money, I tell you though, the thing is worth its weight in gold. I was spinning that thing around like I don't know what. A far cry from the mattress and lump of timber I used to support the Sunbeam Alpine I had when I was in my teens!

I have uploaded the latest video to Youtube here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t9ytqfj3v_k
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 08, 2015, 04:22:57
Been a while since I last posted about this. I have been busy putting my wifes Karmann Ghia together and have also been doing bits and pieces to the Mustang. I am in the process of converting from auto to 5 speed manual, so they have been taking pretty much all of my spare time, I've been doing a lot of cycling too so have been busy.

That being said, there has been a little bit of Pagoding when the time and mood allows. I had the diff inspected by our local specialists and was given a clean bill of health, so new gaskets and seals were fitted. I have resprayed the rear end but have yet to reassemble. I have to sort all the fasteners out for everything and find someone to yellow cad them over here.

I also have to reapply the various yellow and green paint markers that were over it. Looks nice though and was a bit of a boost to see something looking a bit fresher.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 08, 2015, 04:36:32
I've also had all the suspension components blasted that I could, obviously nothing that the sandblasting could hurt. Everything was in pretty nice condition overall. I will replace the front coils, it looked to me like they had sagged a bit, I had them blasted and painted them all the same. I've ordered new front discs also as it looked like too much meat would have to come off them as they were pretty badly pitted.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 08, 2015, 04:46:14
I had already had a couple of the wheels blasted when I had sent some other bits away and primed them with an etch primer. I did a bit more research on this though and had a change of plan, I had them blasted again with the rest of the wheels and have painted everything with an epoxy primer/sealer as it is better if it is going to be left in primer for a while.

Before I had the wheels blasted I sent the best one away to get the grey colour on the back of it matched so that I can topcoat the rim and the back in the same colour, then paint and overspray the front of the wheels body colour, which at the moment is looking like 387H blue, but that could change...

There's a picture too of the suspension bits getting their first black primer, this is a very good matt black primer we use on Corvette frames and components. Everything has had 2 coats of this and then 3 of satin black cellulose with a light flat and de-nib before the last coat. It is all looking very nice.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 08, 2015, 05:02:03
There are bigger developments with the body though, I finally managed to pin my sandblasters to a day and they came out and gently blasted the underside and inside of the shell for me. As one would expect it is slightly worse than I had hoped, but as I've said before, I'm in it now.....

Once we had blown and hoovered out as much of the sand as possible, and there was surprisingly little in all the nooks and crannies, I gave everything another couple of coats of primer.

Just a few interesting points for you guys though when complaining about body repair costs. Not including the actual disassembly I have spent probably £200 on paint stripper and materials, around £300 on primer, activator, and thinners, £500 on sandblasting, my young assistant and I spent probably 30-40 hours scraping underseal off, and it took around 5 hours to apply 2 coats of primer inside the body and underneath. And that's just primer without any real prep work. Our normal labour rate is £48 per hour, so there's over £3000 worth of work and materials there. No wonder repaints are so expensive!

That's a sobering thought, that's the last time I add anything up.

The overall costs have far exceeded what getting the body dipped would have been and has certainly been a lot harder work but I still think this was the right way to go for the car.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 08, 2015, 05:04:58
But I'm doing it for the love of it....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 08, 2015, 05:07:06
And a few in primer, it's nice to see almost everything in one colour at last, now the real hard work begins though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 08, 2015, 05:14:42
A few more.

I have also had the motor stripped now and all is pretty much as expected, the bores are generally good, and we are going first oversize on pistons so 82.5mm, they are the early four ring type. I have ordered a new set of Mahle pistons and rings from Shaun at Mercedes Poole, which was a bit eye watering, I'm used to bargain basement Chevy pistons, I could have got a set of JP pistons for around half the cost but think that the difference in quality will be well worth it.


The crank is in good shape with only some scoring on the front main bearing so that will get reground and my guy will fit new main and rod bearings, the cam is very lightly worn, the jury is still out on whether to get a new cam or get that one re-profiled. I have ordered new rocker arms from MB, along with new timing chain and guides.

So far everything I have got for the car has been genuine Mercedes with the exception of some sheet metal parts which were not available, a set of bumpers, and an exhaust. I have gone for a stainless steel Timevalve system. I wrestled with myself on this one as I have never had real good experiences with stainless steel exhausts and much prefer mild steel, but the MB system is a weld together system, and is untreated, had it been a clamp together aluminized system I would have gone that route. Mike at Timevalve has been very helpful and is painting the system flat black for me so it looks as close to stock as possible. It is also cheaper which is a bonus, I just couldn't see myself spending close on a thousand pounds for an exhaust only to have to replace it not many years after.

Ronni summed it up when I was deliberating on this...'get over it' she said 'I bet if that stainless steel set was available in 1966 when the first one had to be replaced it would still be on there now' She's a wise woman my wife...

It's all pretty exciting stuff.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Larry & Norma on August 08, 2015, 08:09:25
Great stuff :)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: johnk on August 13, 2015, 17:05:03
Scott,

Thank you! This is all extremely helpful as I am a few weeks away from starting the same do-it-yourself project and I am not as experienced as you. You mentioned that dipping would have been cheaper to remove the undercoating. Is it your experience that a good media-blasting will not remove the undercoat? I assumed that could be removed when the rest of the chasis is media blasted.

Also I have not purchased a rotisserie yet. Any recommendations what to look for? I am not in the business so it will only be used for my 280, a mustang Mach 1 of my brothers and whatever other cars I acquire over the next twenty years (if this resto does not kill me!)

Thanks!
John
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Bonnyboy on August 13, 2015, 21:25:51
I cannot stress how important it is to take undercoating off an unknown car. Know what you have before you go deep.   I didn't go full restoration but rather I just fixed what is needed and left the patina where I could.

The undercoating on my car mostly came off with an electric scraper / multi tool and hand scrapers of varying thickness and flexibility.  The electric tool left a fairly clean surface where I could wipe the metal with mineral spirits to get to clean metal.   For me it was more to get to clean metal so I could cut out and replace metal.   I was amazed at how much of the undercoat was either wet or came off with a layer of rust attached.  Scary at the time. 

Then I took my brass wire wheel on an angle grinder (use full face mask and leather jacket / neck) to get the stubborn areas.

For me - the undercoating just laughed at my inadequate sandblaster.  You need an industrial model.   

I had 1 coat of original undercoat, 1 layer of a ziebart type product and several areas with multiple coatings from a can as previous owners tried to hide the rust. 

There was even a nicely shaped piece of a Kellogs Corn Flakes box that was glued to the underside of the floor (where it covered a patch of bondo) and coated with undercoating to look like a metal panel.  It wenk clunk when you hit it with a screwdriver but didn't hold a magnet.   
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: johnk on August 14, 2015, 02:27:02
thanks. I have been all over my car and the body and underside look very solid, but I am thinking I don't want to take a chance in what I can't see under the undercoat. I will just make sure guarantees he can remove the undercoat before he starts. I don't plan on doing that part myself.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 14, 2015, 06:01:32
We took my undercoating off with a hot air gun and a scraper, helps to have a 17 year old college kid who wants to earn a few quid too.

I tried a couple of different methods, blow torch, stripper, scraper, and the hot air gun seemed to work best. No sandblaster will really do much against undercoating of any kind, it just bounces off, I guess if your man had a very big industrial model and just stayed in one area hard then it may do it but it would also deform the panel to hell. My guy had a very large model mounted on a 14 tonne truck with a hose I could have crawled in, and he said his wouldn't do much against undercoating.

We stripped all the undercoating we could get to by hand and then paint stripped the insides of the fenders, ie the back of any exterior panel as I didn't want the sandblaster to go near those, I only had him do the inside /outside of the floor pan, chassis rails, engine bay and boot, but not the back of any exterior panels. I also had him do the windshield frame and then turn the pressure right down and do a couple of spots outside the car where there were a few surface rust spots.

I had also already stripped the paint off the dash but I hadn't treated it with kurust as there were a couple of areas that I couldn't get with stripper so I had him very gently go over the dash too.

It didn't take long to blow the sand out, there will be a bit leach out as body work is done so by the end of it 99% of it will be gone. It is the method I used on the Mustang and it worked well for me on that.

I thought hard about dipping but read a mixture of reports, some good, some bad. I was concerned about them denting the shell moving it around their yard and during the dipping process, and concerned about some acid being left in box sections, may be unfounded but it worried me. It was also a pain for me to transport the shell there and back. I was quoted around £12-1400 to dip the shell and aluminium panels, I guess if it was going to need to be dipped again after the repairs then e-coated maybe it would have been 3 times that, in which case my way has been a bit cheaper.

I think if I were doing it again, I would still do it this way, the dipping is less labour intensive for me personally but I think this is a bit kinder to the car.

I would definitely remove the undercoating again too, I was reluctant at the start and it didn't uncover much more but it did uncover a bit so in my mind it was worthwhile. I know at the end of the day this car will be absolutely as good as I can make it.

The rotisserie came from autotwirler.us  Ours is the pro model because we will use it a lot, and have been. It has become so useful to us as a tool that If I had a bit more room to store and use them, and could justify the expense, I would probably get another. My advice would be get or build one, it makes the job so much more pleasant when you aren't laying on your back. The autotwirler stuff is very well made and they are easy to deal with, it may not seem cheap on the face of it but when you figure the cost of the steel etc and then how long it would take to make to the same standards the price is ok.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: johnk on August 17, 2015, 02:40:16
Thanks very much Scott. I need to rethink how much I am going to do now. My son is now 26 so I can't get him to do all the grunt work that I used too!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 18, 2015, 05:18:31
So I did a little bit of Pagoding at the weekend, I got all my fuel injection pieces ready to go to the USA for refurbishment, I removed the cold start valve and guess the previous owner had a problem with it as the jets had been blocked with some sort of plastic cap, I can't figure why this would be on there unless it was dribbling a bit.

I'm sending that with the injection pump, I'm sending the injectors too but suspect I will be fitting new ones.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 18, 2015, 05:27:35
I've been getting my final batch of chrome plating ready to go as well, and stripped the door handles and the fiendish dash vents, the worst part was getting the solid chrome vent out of the dash piece, took a while to figure out there was a c clip holding it all together, I'm just not used to this German efficiency.

I also started looking at tail light housings, I figured I would send the housings along with the chrome to be zinc plated. I can't figure out how to remove the clear plastic lens from them , anyone done this without damaging them? The only way I can think is to carefully trim the edge until they come out and then glue them back in after.

I was going to grind off the rivets holding the bulb holders in and then rivet them back in after, anyone got any  other tips for that?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 18, 2015, 05:30:46
When I was looking for bits I cam across some of my old interior trim. The instrument binnacle is a bit damaged so I could do with finding another one of those, the A poillar trims are ok and will recover, but what is correct for the top of the windshield frame? Mine just had foam stuck to it and some vinyl glued to it, is that right?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: 66andBlue on August 18, 2015, 06:08:14
I've been getting my final batch of chrome plating ready to go as well, and stripped the door handles and the fiendish dash vents, the worst part was getting the solid chrome vent out of the dash piece, took a while to figure out there was a c clip holding it all together, I'm just not used to this German efficiency.
I was going to grind off the rivets holding the bulb holders in and then rivet them back in after, anyone got any  other tips for that?
Scott,
when you get these louvre plates back from the chrome shop the diameter of the hinge pins on both ends (marked with red arrows in your photo) will have increased after plating and you'll have to file each of them down by hand to get the tilting mechanism to work again. That is no fun as I found out!
Thus after discussion with the chromer for the second batch he returned the stripped and copper plated plates back to me and I covered the pins with the insulation tubing that I had pulled off from a wire with the same diameter. He still could knot a thin wire around the pin in front of the tubing next to the plate to provide current and hang the parts in the chrome plating tank.
Fortunately, the insulation withstood the tank conditions and it worked - no diameter change of the pins!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 18, 2015, 06:22:54
And that's worth the joining fee on it's own!

I'll do that today, thanks for that one!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 19, 2015, 05:38:42
I stripped the seats last night so I could get the frames sandblasted while I am having some other bits done, and send the last few bits of chrome plate away.

The horse hair pads are in fair condition, not sure if they will go again with some extra padding on them or if I should go with this sort of thing:

http://www.cabrio.de/khm/en/padding-panels-backseat/panels-and-seat-paddings/mercedes/113sl/Seat-back-cushion-113-rubberized-hairfoam-compound-detail

The seat frames are in good condition though with only one spring broken, one of the adjusting knobs is cracked which is a shame. I'm also missing the chrome vents out the back of the seats.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on August 19, 2015, 06:31:28
Scott

Have a search on here for "swimming pool noodles" - a very effective way of making your seat feel less squishy, soft and like it is about to collapse.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on August 19, 2015, 15:42:10
The rear light lens can be chromed with the lens in place; the process doesn't affect the plastic.
Vacuum deposition is the required process for the reflectors.
Why are you sending stuff to the states when it can be done here?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 20, 2015, 05:22:32
It's the housing I want to get zinc plated. Can I do that with the plastic lens in place?

Who could I get to redo the injector pump etc over here? I tried calling Fred Pentecost as mentioned by Naj earlier in this thread but got no reply, I'll give him another try.

Can you recommend anyone else? I would like it cosmetically restored as well as mechanically overhauled and tested.

You might also be able to recommend somewhere to get my nuts, bolts , fuel lines etc yellow cad plated?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 20, 2015, 05:41:58
Much excitement here yesterday. The first batch of parts arrived from the MB dealer, new camshaft, new fuel tank and a few other bits. The new grille surround has turned up and is very lovely, couldn't resist putting it in the hole....

Really gave me a boost, long long way to go before this gets fitted properly though....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on August 20, 2015, 16:54:33
Be sure to keep checking the fit on the grill surround as you complete the body work for that area. The pieces don't always exactly fit. BUT - LOOKS GREAT!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 27, 2015, 06:15:29
Took my last big batch of chrome to the platers the other day and picked up the second lot that had been done. All looks very nice except for one hubcap that didn't come out too well that I am going to have them do again, and a couple of the trim rings, which were in a pretty poor state to start with have got a couple of small holes in, you have to wonder why they continued with the chroming process.....

They also condemned my rear view mirror housing as being too far gone to do anything with, that's a pain although not really surprising as that was also pretty grotty, so now I have to try and find another mirror.

The new bumpers arrived from K&K too, the fronts look very good, the rears not so much, which to be fair they did tell me, I haven't checked the fit as the body is nowhere near that stage yet, but I am stock piling bits as and when I can.

The chrome on the fronts is fine but the chrome on the rears is lousy and will need to be redone, the rears also seem thinner than the fronts, but my original rears also seem thinner than the fronts, so I guess they were either like that or my rears have had a load of polishing done previously. I sent mine to be redone and had one good front and one good rear, they also all needed a bit of work and think would have only looked so so. I figured this may have been an easier option than trying to find a decent used half bumper, then sending it for chrome, and finding it's no good. K&K also told me that the rears may sit a bit close to the body so I guess if they have to be redone I can maybe tweak the bumper a little bit, I've got some very big hammers I'm itching to use...

It's nice to see a big batch of fresh chrome though.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 27, 2015, 06:24:03
On this shipment I also got the new exhaust from Timevalve, It's not quite what I was hoping for but in fairness I'm pretty fussy on exhausts. Stainless steel is not my first choice anyway but the fact that the standard system is a weld together one and untreated mild steel I thought this was a better way to go. I'm not too sure if I will run with this system or not, I may wind up selling it and going the OE route.

So a week of mixed emotions, some highs, some lows....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 27, 2015, 06:35:02
The rest of the sheet metal arrived from K&K too, In theory I should have pretty much everything I need to get started on the structural repairs now, I had already got floor pans from Mercedes. I still need a couple of oddball repair patches, I am still looking for a donor piece to repair my front grille opening and I also need to get a piece made to fill the speaker holes that the Texas chainsaw guy cut in the rear bulkhead.

I have a couple of small holes in the rear wheel arches and am reserving judgement on those until I start to get into the rear wheel wells. I'll deal with the frame and floors first.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 28, 2015, 06:11:02
An exciting day yesterday.

My 'new' 5 speed transmission turned up on the back of a truck...I have been looking on and off for a Getrag 265 for a while, and have seen some come and go on ebay but never done anything. I had a couple of feelers out but to no avail and then this BMW 628CSi came up for auction so I thought I'd give it a whirl. I hadn't seen the car but I got a friend to check it wasn't the dogleg version and then bid on it for me.

couple of hours later the transmission is out, and the rest of this magnificent cruiser will go on ebay, could backfire on me and I wind up with the worlds most expensive gearbox or it could go  in my favour and wind up owing me not too much, I fear it may be the former having had a look at the rest of the car.

So there it is, the elusive Getrag 265 complete with speedo drive and propshaft, all very happy making.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 28, 2015, 06:21:01
But the excitement wasn't over yet....

I had a very busy afternoon with customers arriving and phone calls and barely noticed the arrival of a surprise parcel, I was blown away when I opened it up and saw a pair of euro headlights given to me by a fellow forum member.

Very occasionally something happens that really reinforces you faith in human nature, and this has definitely been one of those moments, certainly shows the camaraderie of the collector car hobby, and also of this forum. So my sincere thanks go to Andrew for this one and in the interests of good karma I will make a donation to the Pagoda SL group.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 30, 2015, 05:59:02
I had a few parts sandblasted with a load of Corvette bits the other day. I had the colour matched on the underside of the transmission mount so I sent that for blasting, along with the seat frames and hinges. I gave them a coat of primer in between trying to finish up the Mustang rear disc conversion, now that's a simple job that has turned in to a massive headache....

I had to weld one of the seat springs back together and that was it. I'll give these a couple of coats of the mushroom colour that I had mixed and box them up for later. The Mustang should be done next Saturday so then we can start Pagoding in earnest....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 02, 2015, 05:22:31
Got a couple of coats of the mushroom colour on the seat frames and hinges yesterday, will paint the other side today. It is a fraction darker than what was on there but was the closest I could get without getting a custom colour made up and when the two colours are side by side there is barely anything in it.

The 'S' shaped springs were originally black on mine, and the slats were bare metal but masking up and painting the springs a different colour is a bit over the top and a bit pointless really, although I did briefly consider it....I think this is OK.

I also painted the transmission mount underneath, and when the car is painted I will have this piece done body colour on the other side. I will be fitting the Getrag 5 speed so this will not get used but I figured it may as well get painted along with everything else as it doesn't take any extra time and if I have a change of plan further down the line it is ready to go.

I know this is all a bit out of sequence in the game order, but I had them stripped down and some stuff going for blasting so thought I'd take advantage of it. One thing less to do later on too.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 02, 2015, 05:44:14
I am having a lot of trouble deciding on a colour. I know I am still a ways off that but would like to have it resolved in my mind. These are the ones I've narrowed it down to;

387H blue with either red or parchment interior, black or blue soft top, I wondered about a bamboo interior with this colour?

172G anthracite grey with red interior, maybe the 173G non metallic, black or grey soft top

Or, I like the pale green that I have seen on what I think is a press shot but don't know what the colour is.

I am leaning toward the blue with parchment, the red interior might be a little easier for me to live with and keep clean but may be harder to sell should I decide to move the car on. I have always shied away from pale interiors as they just show every little mark and I want to able to use this car but I do think it looks very striking. Centre caps and hardtop would be in body colour I think.

Any thoughts??
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: batman on September 02, 2015, 06:01:02
Of them - I prefer 172G anthracite grey with red interior.

I think this colour combination gives the car a real an air of extra class/chicness/expensiveness.

However, I would go a dark red not bright red, maybe burgundy to reduce the blingness.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on September 02, 2015, 06:02:14
Quote from: Scottcorvette
.../...Or, I like the pale green that I have seen on what I think is a press shot but don't know what the colour is../...
See this posting, reply 1281 and thereabouts
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18284.msg153137#msg153137 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18284.msg153137#msg153137)
/Hans in Sweden
.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 02, 2015, 19:21:40
Seems my mind is playing tricks on me. I was sure that the seat belt reinforcements were that mushroom colour, but checking back through my pictures tonight seems they were just rusty. I'm sure someone knows what finish these should be, any ideas?

I'm guessing they were maybe yellow zinc/cad?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 14, 2015, 21:45:47
It's been very busy at work and I have been working late quite a bit recently so haven't had chance to do anything much. I have spent a day or so photographing and cataloging nuts and bolts etc so I can send everything away to be plated and know where everything goes when they come back.

This is where marque expertise comes into its own, if this were a corvette I would be able to look at a bolt and tell you on the car where it goes, most of the time anyway, but on this car for me it is all alien so I am having to note everything as we go on. I struggle a bit with metric sizes too, unf and unc are no problem....but I don't know about these modern millimetres!

I have also been stripping the headlights to assess those and get the rebuild parts ordered. It's all good fun....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: waqas on September 16, 2015, 18:35:12
Seems my mind is playing tricks on me. I was sure that the seat belt reinforcements were that mushroom colour, but checking back through my pictures tonight seems they were just rusty. I'm sure someone knows what finish these should be, any ideas?

I'm guessing they were maybe yellow zinc/cad?

I don't believe these reinforcement plates are original. The factory actually created reinforced 3-point mounts on the inside of the car, even though belts were not always supplied at the factory. One lap belt mount hole should be on the inner side of the rocker (facing the side of the seat); the other should be located in a similar position on the tunnel. The shoulder mount is located near the top of the B pillar, just below the chrome cover and facing the seat back. Let us know if you can't locate them. You might want to consider removing these plates from the floorpans and using the factory points. These mount points get overlooked because they are usually hidden by the carpets.

By the way, I've been enjoying reading through your restoration thread. Wish I was as far along with mine!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 17, 2015, 07:07:21
Thanks for that, I'm not as far on as I'd like to be, these pesky Corvettes keep getting in the way!

I'll take a look today for the mounts, I don't recall seeing any other fixings in there.

This is a photo of the mounts from the inside, they had a grey plastic screw in there a s a hole filler, that's what made me think they were factory. They also looked a bit more professional looking than the average seat belt add on, that's not to say someone hasn't put them in there in the last 50 years!

I think I would like to fit 3 point belts in the car, there was nothing in there previously but it feels alien to me to not wear a seat belt now. My only worry about the 3 point belts is it rubbing into your neck because the mount is pretty low down. What are they like?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 17, 2015, 07:16:05
I was trawling the web a couple of weeks back and I came across a photo of my car in the USA on a dealers website. I made contact with him to see if I could get any background info on my car. I got a nice reply telling me the car belonged to the father of a friend and had been laid up in a mechanics shop since 1995 for unknown reasons. He sent me a load of photos of the car as found and then cleaned up.

I bought the car in Late 2013, and I figure it hadn't long been out of storage and ran through the hands of various dealers, all taking a slice of the pie, until it wound up in the auction in the UK, I would really like to find out a little bit more about the car so I think I will write to the last name on the title and see if I can't find out anything more.

The photos show the car in a pretty sorry state. I paid too much for the car and am now into it for more than the asking price again just in parts, with a long way to go. I'm enjoying the ride though so I guess it must be good for my soul...

Could this be the luckiest Pagoda out there......
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 17, 2015, 07:21:23
A few more.

It is pretty easy for this to happen though. I have a few cars in my shop that have been there for years, usually because of a problem with payment, then when it get's resolved we are busy with other things so it's hard to schedule them back in, then you get worried that you will do a load more work and not get paid so you do something else, and so it goes on.

It's a nice feeling knowing that this old girl is getting another chance though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on September 17, 2015, 07:41:53
You're doing good work there Scott!
Would you have bought it in the original state?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on September 17, 2015, 12:12:07
Those seat belt anchor points are not original but are the more common method of retro-fitting.
You should take the opportunity to get rid of them and install proper ones in the correct places.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 17, 2015, 19:56:05
Stick, I forgot to look at seat belt mounts today but I found these pictures and I definitely don't have the seat belt mounts that I think you are talking about, maybe mine is a rare prototype for seat belt mounts....
 
If I wanted to fit the factory mounts what is on the backside of the hole, is it just a captive nut welded to the body or is there a backing plate/spreader?

James, I would have still bought the car in that state. it wouldn't have bothered me one iota that it was covered in crap and not running. In fact I would have much preferred it if I had bought it then as it was significantly less money...I guess I am a bit of an oddbod here really as I wasn't looking for one of these cars at the time, I rode in one when I was in my teens on the way to a Corvette meet, and it was very nice but it wasn't something I yearned after, I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...I really liked the look of the car and it just kind of got me.

Knowing what I know now though I might not have bought it, the condition is worse than I had imagined. Restoration costs are what they are, and it is as expensive as you want it to be I guess, I baulk a bit at some of the parts prices but I am spoilt by American sports and muscle cars, where parts are readily available and sensibly priced for the most part, once I get over the initial shock though I'm okay with it....

One thing I do like though is that almost everything is available, and most from Mercedes Benz so far, that really turns me on, I am trying to do this with as much OE as possible, and I know it will cost me more and that I am probably being a sucker but I really like it. I got pretty tired of poor quality repro parts with my Mustang project, so this is a breath of fresh air.

Anyway I really like this car, and up to now I have no regrets. I couldn't afford to just go out and buy a car restored the way I would want it done, and to be honest I don't know that I would want to, the pleasure for me really is in the doing, I love the planning, the parts sourcing, and the rebuild itself. Once it is done I don't really know what to do with it and I kind of lose interest. I am hoping though that the Pagoda may well be the answer to all my motoring dreams.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 18, 2015, 06:14:11
Well I'm limbering up to kick this rebuild into second gear. It has been almost 2 years now since I bought this car and it has played second fiddle to a Mustang and VW Karmann Ghia, both need a couple of small jobs doing to finish but nothing of any real consequence. So now the Mercedes moves up into number 1 slot!

I'm pretty well on with the parts, there is still a lot more I need but I have made a dent in things. The first job will be to tackle the welding. I am trying to find a reasonably priced spot welder to do some of the body repairs with, I will probably wind up getting a new one, trouble is once this car is done it won't get a lot of use at our place, or at least I don't think it will. I got a plasma cutter last year when I was doing the VW and that has been invaluable at times, I'm sure a spot welder will be too, that's what I keep telling my mother/accountant...

We do a lot of chassis and windscreen frame repairs at our place, so I am fortunate that a lot of these toys are available for my own projects. this is a 1967 Corvette frame that we have just put a new front frame rail in, and replaced the rear body mounts. Ronni did this, her welding is superb.

Anyway I'm pretty excited about it getting it going on now, once I have finished sorting out and listing the nuts and bolts I can get stuck into some sheet metal repair....no doubt 6 months down the line some of this gung ho enthusiasm will have waned...

Oh my plan with the BMW failed miserably by the way, it made a bit over half what I was hoping for on ebay, so I am now the proud owner of the worlds most expensive Getrag....ah well!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on September 18, 2015, 07:35:56
Hey Scott.  Thought I would just poke my head in and say i think your doing an awesome awesome job.  Really hope your love affair with your mistress never wears off.  Lol.  Shes a keeper.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Liquid silver on September 18, 2015, 10:04:57
Hi Scott
Great restoration post. I have just bought a 65 Pagoda 230SL and admire what you are doing. If you are interested the guys on the Official MB club and MB Club.co.uk would find your write ups very interesting. If you are not a member of the official club I would recommend you join as you will get discounts on parts and access to the EPC which would be very useful to you at this stage of your restoration. It will be the best £37 that you will spend.
I am also a member of the CCCUK have had 4 Corvettes, surprised we haven't met at a meet some time.
Good luck with your restoration,  you have my utmost respect for what you are doing, keep the pics coming.

Paul
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 19, 2015, 05:20:02
Thanks fellas. Nice to get a bit of feedback on this. Good to see you back on the scene Andy, I miss your resto posts, think you need another project...

Paul I only really used to go to the corvette nationals, I didn't make it this year but the focus seems to be more on later cars and I just don't get involved in anything post 1982, be interesting to hear what your thoughts on the Mercedes are compared to the Corvettes you have had. I have a 1962 Corvette and my wife and I drove it to Lemans and back a couple of years ago, it was a bit of a journey with heavy steering, heavy clutch, heavy drum brakes, and a leaky soft top, I love the car though but it is better for shorter journeys and blowing out cobwebs. I am hoping the Mercedes will be a much more relaxing car to do a couple of long trips in. I looked at the planned euro event with a great deal of interest but I am pretty certain mine will be done by then.

I did join the MB club when I went to the NEC, I go the renewal and it kept getting pushed to one side and eventually forgotten, I really ought to rejoin. The value I get from this site far exceeds the joining fee.

so I took a look at my lack of seat belt mounts yesterday, this is what I have. I think the first picture may be the attaching point for a shoulder harness? The second and third show I have nothing in the spots I have seen in other posts on this forum, and the last one shows clearly nothing on the trans tunnel.

The only mounts I have that I think may have been for seat belts is a captive nut on the big crossmember behind the seats which may have been for a lap strap, I didn't look on the inside of the sill to see if there is a captive nut there.

I guess original style retractable 3 point seat belts are going to be made of unobtanium?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 19, 2015, 05:35:13
So it looks like the painting mask for the wheel centres may well be on it's way to me shortly. I suppose I will have to get off the fence and pick a colour. I have shown a few friends the photos and the general feeling is that anthracite grey is the way to go, with a red or dark red interior. I have asked a painter for a colour sample but as yet haven't seen it. I know it isn't correct for my car but I think it would have been available in 1964?

I will need to get some interior and soft top colour samples, I gather GAHH is going to be my best bet for interior parts? I will also need the early style soft top too as my frame has the wooden bows and I don't want to have the same problems Andy had with his, I also don't want a top that is so tight it is a paint to erect, I had that on a Sunbeam Alpine when I was a kid and it really spoilt the car for me, I want it snug but not so snug you struggle to get it up. I was thinking either grey or black for the top. Any pointers on the best quality kit?

I think I may be missing some trim, my VIN Is 4260, should I have a chrome strip at the back of my soft top above the window? I think I may also be missing some trim from above the windscreen on the inside of the car, mine had foam stuck to the windshield frame then covered in vinyl, but I wonder if I ought to have a trimmed wood capping or something like the A pillar interior trims. If anyone could point me in the right direction on these I'd be grateful.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 19, 2015, 18:05:19
So I spent a bit more time yesterday stripping various components, getting some more aluminium parts ready for media blasting, and continuing with my ever increasing nut and bolt catalogue. This is starting to feel a bit old already but if I don't do this I fear I have no hope of remembering where all these little fasteners go once they are plated. Personally I think taking a car apart properly and carefully is of vital importance in a good quality rebuild. I'm sure I'll still forget half of it though.

My car is buried in one corner of the workshop at the moment and I am unable to get it into a position where I can work on it successfully for a little while, so my plan is to strip the few remaining sub assemblies and send all the nuts and bolts away to be plated. By the time I'm done with that I should be able to get the body shell out so I can work on it, then when the car is away being painted I can reassemble all of the smaller bits, rebuild the steering box and column etc, so I am ready for everything to be bolted back on after paint.

I also want to send my floor repair panels etc away to get a light sandblasting so that I have a real good key for the primer to go onto.

I removed the bell housing from the old 4 speed and stripped the pedal box out too so I can get all of that sandblasted and resprayed. I am sending my Getrag 5 speed away tomorrow to be checked and overhauled, so if that get's a clean bill of health I can then order the rest of the 5 speed kit and carry on with that part of the conversion also.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 20, 2015, 09:40:44
One of my handbrake cable ends had a crack in it and I had a hell of a job getting it all apart so it hasn't helped it. I also need the shouldered bolt that goes through the roller. It is a shame that the handbrake cable itself is OK and nice and free, but the plastic housing is a bit cracked so I won't want to put it back on with everything else looking minty. This is the problem with this kind of rebuild, where just about everything winds up getting replaced.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Liquid silver on September 20, 2015, 20:12:09
Hi Scott
I am aware that you only deal in older vets, mine have all been of the modern variety, 2000 C5, 2005 C6, 20006 C6 Paddle shift and 2010 Grand Sport.
If you are going to the NEC this year I will be on the MB Club stand on  Friday and Sunday as they asked me if I would show my 107. If you are come say hallo and have a coffee, maybe we can sign you up again.

Paul
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 27, 2015, 08:34:08
i might go to the NEC this year, depends if my mate wants to go or not.

I loaded up the mustang with bits and took a trip out to the sandblaster yesterday, it was the first trip I'd done with the new 5 speed and it has made a big difference, I still have a couple of teething problems to sort out with it but I'll get round to it. I'm glad I bit the bullet with the 5 speed for the Mercedes. I know the 4 speed trans would have spoilt the car for me.

I took the rest of the aluminium parts over to be vapour blasted, along with a few of the steel parts I had stripped, and also the new floor pans etc, The new parts came painted and I wasn't sure how well they would take my primer so I stripped them back to bare metal and they were a bit brown underneath so I figured better to get them blasted, the new parts that came from K&K were bare but I am having those done to give a better key for the primer.

They reckon the vapour blast is so gentle they can do my door latches and plug wire ends without hurting anything, lets hope he's right!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 27, 2015, 08:42:25
I have nearly finished getting all the bits ready to go to the plater. I am a bit unsure about the finish on a couple of things though:

The soft top cover catches and latches, one of my catches looks like it may have been yellow cad, the other looks like it may have been black phosphate, I am not sure if it is yellow cad that has been discoloured by black paint over time though. On the soft top catches, some parts look yellow, some black.

The two hinges that the cowl/heater flaps hinge on, these have been painted red, the car was originally maroon. These also look like they may have been black phosphate

The bonnet/hood catch, should this be painted or plated?

Anyone know what is right for these parts? I have been able to see on most of the bits what the original finish was but am unsure on these ones.

Also should the door latch bolts be silver zinc, or yellow zinc?

I think the door hinges and bolts were painted over body colour. If that is the case I would be better not having the bolts plated so they take the paint better.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on September 27, 2015, 13:21:19
Scott

Not saying mine's right but do these help...?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on September 27, 2015, 14:45:18
The bonnet/hood latch should be black

The door latch bolts on my 280 SL are the same as what James L has posted, not yellow.

The door hinges are painted body color as are the bolts.

Curious about the item you list as cowl/heater flaps. Those look like the hood/bonnet hinges?? If they indeed are, then they should be body color.

Don't have access to the top lid catches (hardtop is on the car)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 27, 2015, 16:58:10
Thanks both.. I forgot about the chrome covers over the door latches. I'll get them silver zinc plated so they are the same colour as the latch, I'll see if they will just clean up first.

I thought the bonnet catch looked like it may have been black phosphate plated, same as the deck lid and soft top catches, or at least that is how it looks to me but hard to tell.

Those are not hood hinges, I have had those sandblasted and primed them, these are the brackets that the heater flaps pivot on under the cowl vent, they look like they may have been black phosphate too. I think I'll get those done at the same time. I doubt they will ever get seen again but I'd like to try and get it right.

My door latches are different. I need to try and separate them so I can get one part zinc plated and one part chrome plated. I can buy one side new from MB but not the other, they are very expensive too. I think I can take the heads of the rivet off as long as there is enough room to drill and tap to get a countersunk sets crew in from the back, I may have to leave them pitted and just accept it is what it is.

I must admit this project has gone totally overboard and the car has become something of an obsession with me. It was never intended to be as in depth a restoration as this, trouble is once you start......
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on September 28, 2015, 14:33:26
After thinking about those hinges last night, I figured I might have had a bit of fog on the brain. So I looked again. Yup, I was in the fog. The cowl hinges on my 280 SL are plain metal, they are not painted, neither are the bolts. I can't tell from the angle whether they is any trace of black. I would believe not, the black treatment was used on the early cars, and would not have made it this far into the series (mine is 12730).
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 28, 2015, 19:06:16
Mine is VIN 4260, I am pretty sure these hinges were black phosphate or similar. I have always believed black phosphate to be a pretty flat black though, my decklid catches particularly look a slightly shiny black, and has variations in colour and depth, almost like a black cadmium plate, if there is such a thing.

I'm still no further on with a decision on seat belts, I would like to get original style belts for this, but would prefer a retractable 3 point harness. If there is anyone out there with a bare shell that can photograph the location of the mount points I'd appreciate it.

I'm also trying to decide what to do regarding a radio, or lack of. Options are:

1. fit a radio blank plate and use a bluetooth speaker
2. fit a radio blank plate and fit an amp with a direct feed from my iphone to four speakers, probably two in the dash top and two in the footwell. I would probably want to use the stock looking footwell speakers, and would fit an active sub under the rear parcel shelf
3. fit a becker europa of correct vintage and stick with the mono speaker in the dash
4. as option 2 but using a later becker europa stereo set

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on September 28, 2015, 22:19:51
That is a fairly early 230 SL so the black may be the case. I am traveling for a couple of days, but will check the "Mercedes Collector" magazines I have, which list all the changes for the 230 SL and see if there is anything in there.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on October 01, 2015, 15:32:14
I just read through the list of changes for the 230 SL, and did find any reference to the cowl hinge brackets. I have run across several other comments about black versus plate, and did not see any concrete references to other parts or pieces. The only comment was about the tools - at chassis 1700 the tools are listed as having the change to rust protected surfaces. The listing is pretty detailed and I thought there would be a note for this kind of change (or some of the other color/plate changes) but I did not see them.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 02, 2015, 07:01:36
I've managed to find traces of original finish on most parts, a couple of them are a bit hazy, I thought originally the cowl vent hinges were body colour but having cleaned and had a better look I am pretty sure they are black phosphate or black zinc. I cleaned the hood strap mounting parts last night and I expected them to be zinc plated, the upper retainer plate was just rusty, but looked bright silver in a couple of spots so think this was either zinc plated or bare steel, the lower retainer was black, I am not sure if plated or painted, but definitely black, and clearly untouched so that is what I will go with but will have it plated black along with some other components.

There were a couple of fasteners that were left bare, some of the pedal box fixtures for example but I am going to have them black phosphate just to give them a little protection and also to make them look smarter, it is either that or just wire wheel them and leave them bare, but they would soon go rusty, or paint them flat black. I'm getting black plating done so may as well chuck them in.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 02, 2015, 07:07:12
My replacement Bosch starter arrived yesterday, I went for the smaller more modern equivalent on Naj's recommendation. I am deliberating now on whether to upgrade the alternator to a 55A one, and if so which one, I have been advised to uprate the alternator mount bracket too. It was my intention to keep this car bone stock but I guess that has gone for a ball of chalk now with the 5 speed, although i will try and keep the bulk of the car as close to original as I can.

Things to improve the drive and reliability can't be a bad thing I guess and I am keeping all the original parts....unless someone offers me a fortune for a 4 speed transmission.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on October 02, 2015, 16:22:35
I did take a closer look at the cowl hinges on my 250 SL (restored in 2000) I can see that these have traces or yellow plating. Both the top and bottom hood strap mounts are yellow plated (what is still there).

Very cool to get the detail on the early cars, and to note the differences. I wonder when the change was made??
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 03, 2015, 06:59:38
I looked at them pretty closely and couldn't see any trace of yellow on these parts, for the most part the only indication I'm getting is the trace of original finish left under washers and bolt heads, but it is pretty conclusive on most parts, I'll check them all again before I do anything final, no doubt if I do my hood strap brackets black/silver everyone that sees them will tell me it's wrong anyway....

I bunked off work yesterday afternoon and got my lovely Fiat 130 coupe out as I had some errands to run, I drove the hour to the blasters to collect all the parts I'd just had blasted and vapour blasted, loaded up the car without looking at the parts as they were all boxed up, then drove the hour back. When I unloaded them last night all the aluminium parts had clearly been put in the box still wet, and everything is stained and needs doing again. I had left some of the bolts in as plugs and these have all rusted and streaked over the clean aluminium.

Time is something I am always short of it seems, and having to do another 3 hour round trip to get these done again is frustrating to say the least. I am nervous about sending parts like this by carrier in case they go missing so I'll see if they will meet me half way. I also don't know that I like the finish. I expected it to come out looking like fresh aluminium and really it just looks like it has been lightly sandblasted. I think maybe glass bead would give me a better finish with a slightly satin sheen to it.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 03, 2015, 07:08:22
The bell housing looks OK, I shouldn't have had the plug wire ends done as it has pretty much wrecked those, I just wish they had stopped after the first one and not buggered up all 6. They haven't come out very nice anyway so in reality I haven't lost much there as they were too scruffy to refit and I would have had to replace them anyhow.

I have enquired about new plug leads and am waiting for a response. I've seen a set on authentic classics at over $400 and a set for a 280SL at $70 so I'll call them and see what the difference is.

I am planning on fitting 123 ignition, I guess the factory plug wires should work ok with that? Might be worth looking in to before I go spending $$$

That's old cars for you.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 03, 2015, 16:08:19
Had a very nice surprise at work today when JamesL popped in for a visit with his Pagoda, lovely to meet you James, and nice to have a ride in his lovely 280SL, has given me a bit of a boost on mine.

Not that I need it, I'm still very enthusiastic about this car , not much done today, too busy chewing the fat, I got the freshly blasted panels primed ready for replacement. I have also just bought a spot welder off ebay, need to figure out how to get it from Yorkshire to Norfolk, but that shouldn't be too much trouble. So there's nothing to stop me getting the floors in now!

I also primed the inside of the rear light panel ready for a topcoat to protect inside a bit. I was going to strip the brake calipers today. Mine have been replaced at some point and have a bright yellow zinc finish, is this correct or should they be a raw casting?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on October 03, 2015, 16:16:40
Quote from: Scottcorvette
.../... the brake calipers today. Mine have been replaced at some point and have a bright yellow zinc finish, is this correct
Yes, certainly, at least for ATE type calipers. Maybe pale yellow describes them, not a real bright yellow. See pic attached.
The earlier 230SL with Girlings am I not so familiar with.
/Hans in Sweden
.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 03, 2015, 16:28:31
I guess mine are similar to that, not really bright, kind of a gren/yellow. I think I'll leave the finish as is but have the bolts black phosphate so they don't rust.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on October 03, 2015, 17:09:55
Great day, thanks Scott. Great to meet you and your enthusiasm is infectious

Downside of the day: I mentioned your collection to the wife and got as far as the Mustang and her first reaction was "oooh, does he want to sell it?" Like you.... Out of space


Oh, and you do realise we will all want a vote on colour. You have to like it but I quite fancy it's maroon with silver hard top and cognac leather.

(http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/cars-for-sale/car-images/e7nwz5e8jy.jpg)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 05, 2015, 20:41:47
Well the jury is still out on colour....

I managed to sneak in a bit of painting this morning to get some top coat on the parts I primed Saturday. a bit enforced really as there is a 3 day re-coat window on the primer I am using. This is no more than a protection coat, the inside of the original rear light panel was painted in the same colour as the seat frames, as I had had that paint mixed I redid the inside of that panel the same while I redid the seat hinges, it was a bit too glossy before so I had the painters matt it down a little, looks much better now. I even managed to get a few runs in for authenticity....

I also did the inside of the repair panels I have, I know this will get beaten around a bit as they are trimmed and fitted but at least it affords them some protection.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 05, 2015, 20:50:00
I had to paint a Corvette engine bay this afternoon so I snuck my pedal box and a few other bits in there too, works all very well but it does rather get in the way of ones Pagoding.....

Anyway it was getting late in the day and had been raining a fair bit, I guess it was a bit too damp and everything has bloomed so will have to do it all again tomorrow.....

FYI the front hubs have only had top coat on the back side, I only gave the front side just a very light black primer after the sandblasting so there is no thickness of paint between the wheel and the hub to cause problems. I will install new bearings so left the races in there to protect those surfaces during blasting and painting.

The ebay spot welder will be here this week so there should be no stopping me now. I'll spend Saturday learning how to spot weld then watch this space!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 07, 2015, 19:49:27
I was waiting around at work last night for a car to arrive from Lithuania that I had taken in part exchange...I decided to take a look at my calipers to see if they were worth doing anything with. It had lain in a mechanics shop for 18 or so years and I think this is probably why it was in there in the first place as the calipers look newer than anything else in on the car. I took one apart and everything looks pretty good with the exception of some heavy staining and a bit gummed up.

Now I seldom rekit Corvette calipers as once they are leaking it is kid of 50/50 that they will be ok and that isn't a good enough ratio when you are being paid to do it. Corvette brakes have kind of a poor reputation that is only partially deserved, when they are good they are very good, but they don't like to sit. I'm erring a bit whether to rekit these or replace them, they seem pretty good to me but I wonder whether by the time I have bought a couple of kits, and then had the castings plated I might be near the cost of new ones. New calipers here are £220 each, kits £45 and I guess plating is going to be £40-50 each??

What is the groups opinion on these? The bore feels ok with no noticeable ridges or anything, it looks to me like the bore doesn't really matter too much as the seal is in the bore. The piston was stained and I cleaned it with some 600 grade wet and dry, used wet with brake fluid. The piston cleaned up very nicely. There is a slight shadow where it has sat against the seal foir years but nothing I could feel with my fingernail....speaking of which I really must book a manicure....

So what is the opinion of the group, buy new or go again.....?

I don't want to skimp but I don't want to waste money either, are these brakes troublesome and leaky or normally ok when rebuilt?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 08, 2015, 06:57:33
More excitement here yesterday, the 'new' spot welder arrived ready to tackle the body repairs on my car, It's a hell of a thing and I'm well pleased with it, looks in nice order and a good result for me as I was getting a bit tired of trawling through ebay looking for one and they either were too expensive, too far way or looked like they had lived in a paint booth for 20 years so I hit the buy it now button straight away when this one came up for £450, especially when I was getting close to going for a very basic new one with hardly any attachments for over £3000...

Came out of a main dealer that had to upgrade their machine at a whopping £11500, yikes.

We call it.... 'The Chief'
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 08, 2015, 07:06:50
Had a spanner thrown in the works though when this turned up. This is the trade in on a 69 big block roadster I sold to Lithuania of all places, turned up on a truck late the other night and they took the 69 away. I was pretty disappointed when I first looked round it as it needs some body repair but I am getting a bit keen on it myself, trouble is I don't really need another project right now and I would need to sell either the Fiat or the Mustang to fund it.

A nice problem to have really! Car is a 1966 small block 4 speed car, was originally a 327/300 in Nassau blue with black interior, but now has a 65 Corvette 327/365hp motor. I always fancied a 65-67 coupe with a 5 speed and a hi-po 327 as a long distance cruiser, and Nassau blue is just lovely.....

Anyone want a Fiat 130 Coupe?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 11, 2015, 07:31:39
Had a busy day on the Mercedes yesterday. I stripped the door internals, lock rods, window regulators etc so I could get the last batch of nuts and bolts for the platers, I will also take the regulators to him and see if he can do anything with them, if he can't then they will just get a clean and wire brush, maybe a light coat of something but I don't know what. I'd like to get them back to their original brown colour if possible.

Everything was pretty gunked up with old hard grease but has cleaned up quite well, especially the aluminium runners. I may get the main runners re-plated if the cost isn't too high. I am having some other stuff done so I'm sure they can just go in with that batch.

I took the lock knobs out to get re-chromed, I am still looking for a LH door handle but am having no luck there.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 11, 2015, 07:47:13
Whilst I was sorting out all the door internals, I came across the metal plates that go over the access holes in the door, these were painted the same mushroom colour that i had try to get matched for the seats and other bits, I was pleased to find that once I had had the colour matted down some more it was very close to what was on there originally.

A lot of the underneath of my car was painted this colour, particularly the areas where there wasn't much undercoating.

I got some used hardtop handles and seat vents, there were a couple of broken tabs on the seat vents so I welded some new ones on ready to send those to the platers, in hindsight I wish I had followed Sticks advice and got new ones from SLS as I think these will cause me grief, but I just couldn't face 700 euros for a set, also having seen the originals v the repro, the originals are much nicer.

The hardtop handles came apart OK though, the hardtop for mine is not original to the car and has the later style handles, I was missing the handle part so I figured if I have to buy something I might as well buy the right thing so it at least looks like it is right and proper.

On a previous post I was talking about starter and alternator upgrades. Naj has been extremely helpful with advice on what to get, I got a new Bosch starter the other day and have ordered a 55A alternator, he very kindly supplied me with a later cast alternator bracket to replace the original steel one. The steel one I have is fine, this is more a preventative measure as I understand the original piece is a bit weak. I will still get the old one plated so it could go back on should anyone desire, so thanks Naj!



Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 11, 2015, 08:00:10
So I got home from work around 6 last night and Ronni was just about to go out shopping so I had an hour or so in the garage. I have pretty much finished the great nut and bolt extravaganza that has been going on the last couple of weeks. I need to get her Karmann Ghia out so I can get the boxes down from the rafters and go through them, make sure there is nothing I missed, but I was at a bit of a loss what to do.

I have a new steering wheel coming for mine as I was not happy with the restoration job done on my original one. I bought a new horn pad early on in this job but the emblem in the centre is different to mine so figured I might as well try and put mine in. I got a rattle can of Ford ivory which looks very close to the colour of the horn button so I started to clean mine down last night.

I carefully scraped the paint off the inside, then flatted that down wet with some 2000 grade wet'n'dry, did the same on the outside and polished that. I only had T cut but I'll call in at work and pick up some finesse to do it again. It has come up pretty well though. I noticed a tiny bit of the chrome has come away from the star but |I am hoping some chrome spray will hide that.

There is a tiny craze just to the right of the star, but it is what it is, I quite like a bit of age to these things as long as it isn't too shabby looking.

On another note, I have a little TV on the wall in there with a DVD player built in, I have been mainly watching 'The Professionals' in there lately and lo and behold, a dark blue Pagoda popped up on there, quite nice to see!


Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 12, 2015, 19:01:09
Had a disaster tonight. I went through all the parts I have stored in the roof of my garage to look for any other parts I need to send to the platers and dug my heater assembly out and thought I would get the casing sandblasted and the fasteners plated. I was really struggling to get the fan wheels off the spindles as the long allen wrench I have has a wobble end and I couldn't get enough grip on the allen screw. I got one off eventually and then tried to get the other but couldn't get the wrench to bite.

I figured I would go out and get another wrench tomorrow but being the impatient boy I am I thought I would try a shorter one on a pair of pliers, They were super tight and I didn't realize I must have been levering against the fan blade as well and next thing I snapped one off, I'm so angry with myself.

I don't know that I want to glue it risk the fan being out of balance or it breaking off in use and having to take the whole assembly out again so I would like to try and find another.

Anyone got a heater fan??
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 17, 2015, 06:31:56
Got the horn pad emblem finished up, looks very nice. Shame the chrome outline around the star isn't just a little bit nicer but it is what it is. I had the chrome surround redone and that looks very nice. I never really compared the colour of the emblem to the colour of the new emblem and although they look quite similar in the pictures the new one looks more green. I know the colour of mine is pretty much identical to what was there as before I stripped it I sprayed the back of the emblem with the new paint where some of the original colour was missing, and the colour was indistinguishable from what was there already.

For what it's worth the colour of the new emblem is actually quite blotchy when you look closely.

I have a new steering wheel coming from Authentic classics which should arrive with me next week, as soon as I get that I can strip the new horn pad out and swap the emblems over, the back of the new pad has shorter sockets for the connecting pins, as a result of that it won't fit my original wheel with it's connectors so I was going to swap the back for the one from the original horn pad, I'll wait and see what the new wheel has and then build up the pad to suit.

That's the plan anyhow...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 17, 2015, 06:48:16
We emptied the shop out the other day to move some cars around and pulled the 230 out of the never get done corner and moved it into a position where it can be worked on. The new 3 phase wiring for 'The Chief' has been installed and so work can begin in earnest.

I have a customer coming to look at a car today, I hope they buy it as I am on short rations until it is sold and am not allowed to order any more Mercedes parts....as soon as they are done with me I can get into some metalwork on this car. I'll have a bit of a practice with the Chief and see if I can master the art of spot welding then I'll cut out some of the toe board to get access into the sills and assess the extent of the rust.

I've been having a closer look at all the sheet metal after work the last couple of nights, and I'm pretty disappointed with the quality of the replacement panels, don't get me wrong I am glad they are available but just wish they were a bit better. The floor pans I got from Mercedes look pretty good although the teller will be when they go in the hole of course, but the seat mounts I got from K and K really aren't up to much, the RH one is about a half inch wider than the original one and the shape isn't all that either. I think I will probably wind up leaving mine in and just replacing the bottom half using a piece of the new panel.

Also the part of the floor that goes under the rear seat is totally different, maybe that's an early/late car thing but mine isn't like the replacement at all, it's a shame because that is the part on mine that is rotten, although I will probably have to use it as I will have to remove that piece to get to the frame rail that needs replacing. I was hoping that with the parts for these cars being so expensive then the quality would be A1, looks like I'm in for a fairly major reality check in the not too distant.

I have a couple of fairly expensive packages on their way from the USA and I am starting to get a little nervous about whether the parts are going to be right. I ordered a new heater control from MB and it has turned up but has the later style levers in it, well I can't fit that so I am back to square one there. Still, we will prevail.

Should have some pictures of a hacked up Mercedes Benz to post later....

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 17, 2015, 17:14:37
Well I sold the car so I can get some more parts now....

Had a go with 'The Chief' which was a great success, I thought there might have been a bit of practice needed but it really is as simple as squeezing the trigger. I got a prefect spot weld my first time out. I'm very happy with this machine and will spot weld anything I can....I tried to do a destructive test on the piece and I couldn't get it to tear apart. It is hard to believe that such a tiny weld is as strong as it is. I just wish I had had it when I was doing the Mustang and the VW.

I didn't get chance to do much else today, I cut some of the rotten metal out from the wheel wells at the front and rear section of the rockers so I could have a look in there and try and make a plan. It was all pretty flaky inside, so I scraped what I could out and need to decide if I just rust treat it all and replace smaller sections each end or if I bite the bullet and cut the whole section out and use one of the repair sections in there. It is a bit borderline, not sure it's good enough to leave but not sure it's bad enough to warrant replacement, I certainly won't need to fit full rockers.

The jacking points are all solid except for just the bottom part of the plate, so they could be left with some local repair, fortunately all the rust is in the same areas so I think my cutting out can be kept to a minimum.

Picture 2 is the LH rear wheel well looking forward

Picture 3 is inside the RH rocker, looking back from the front wheel well

Picture 4 is The RH front wheel well looking back
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 17, 2015, 17:16:21
A few more of inside the rockers

Picture 1 is the LH rocker looking forward from the rear wheel well

Picture 2 is the RH rocker looking back from the front wheel well

Picture 3 is from the LH rear wheel well - I think!

Picture 4 is the RH rear wheel well looking forward
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Cees Klumper on October 17, 2015, 17:57:05
Impressive progress, thanks for taking the time to post all the updates and pictures.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 17, 2015, 22:22:01
If you want to sell that spot welder when you're done I'd be interested. Mine is about 40 years old!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mnahon on October 18, 2015, 03:50:13
Scott,

Those are great shots of the rockers. I'm especially interested in them because I've been trying to sort out drainage coming from the soft top box, through the rear quarter panels and then through the rockers to the front of the car. It would be really great if you could label each shot in your post, like 'left rocker, from the rear, looking forward'. Some of the pictures are hard to locate.

Have you figured out why the rockers ended up rusting in those places? i.e. how the water got there?

The rockers look mostly sound apart from the ends.

Meyer
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 19, 2015, 07:09:56
I dunno Stick, The Chief and I have formed a pretty special bond already....

Meyer, I tried labelling the pictures but I couldn't. I'll list where they are in the text. It is only really the ends that are bad, but the bottom part of the sill is pretty pitted inside, I guess it will become more apparent what I have to do as I delve further in to it.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mnahon on October 19, 2015, 12:14:36
Thanks very much Scott. Those pictures can be very useful to understand the inside construction and the potential rust areas.

I think this is a rust area/path that is not well understood because it's hidden. My own hypothesis is that the water originates from the soft-top box and, due to improper drainage, ends up inside the rockers. Once inside there, it ends up pooling at one of the ends, depending on whether the car is tilted nose up or down. As far as I know, there are no drain holes from the inside of the rocker; so once there, the water has a long dwell time. (The drain holes visible from outside are to drain the water that is between the rocker and rocker cover).

Meyer
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: PMO956F on October 19, 2015, 19:30:29
Hi Scott

I was reading your post re Fred Pentecost , i dont suppose you have a valid number for him , (did he redo your pump at reasonable cost?)

thanks

Darren
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 20, 2015, 20:03:38
Fred Pentecosts contact details:
 
towerbridgediesels.co.uk 07944 977711
 
I haven't had mine done yet, he advised me to wait until nearer the time that the car is going to be run so the pump doesn't sit around. We did talk about costs but it is pretty hard for him to give an idea until he has seen the pump, fair enough as it could need just a clean or need everything.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 20, 2015, 20:07:21
Meyer I think you are right, there are some pretty bad water traps on these cars by the looks of things, but I think if they have lasted this long they haven't done too bad, and it is pretty unlikely that they will really get properly wet again...Mine has some pitting in the soft top well, and if you follow the path down it ties in with the rust round the sill and frame rails. Most of the problems on my car are toward the rear, so it makes me think the soft top well is responsible for an awful lot, incidentally mine had no seal at all in there when I got it.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 20, 2015, 20:11:49
it has been another very exciting day, my shipment from the USA arrived and there was a fair bit of Mercedes on there to keep my interest...Corvette parts just don't seem to do it for me any more.

Here's a sneak preview....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 21, 2015, 05:49:51
With the arrival of the new steering wheel I set about swapping the horn pad emblems. Not as straightforward as one might think. The new steering wheel has short plugs for the horn pad to push on to so I either need to replace those with longer ones or swap the base over. I figured I'd swap the bases so I didn't have to get new plugs.

Getting the new emblem apart was easy enough, I just used a small pick to ease the tabs in and get the outer chrome ring off. The the rest of it just fell apart, the new emblem is just stuck on with some double sided tape, I never thought it felt as sturdy as the original.

The problem is there seems to be just a little more bulk to the new horn pad than the old. I was having trouble getting the outer chrome ring to snap over the cushion and the original plastic base so may need to go back to using the new base and getting longer plugs, the screw threads start further down in the new base hence the original plugs are no good.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 21, 2015, 05:56:42
The other snafu is that the new emblem is just a snap smaller than the original with the chrome bezel so I cant get it to push in. I carefully cut the slots with an exacto knife but I still can't get it to push in. The original has a complete covering for the emblem to sit on but the replacement has nothing there so it is just catching on the edge of the hole.

I'll have another go at it tonight but I think I'll need to nick Ronni's hairdryer and warm it up a little bit to get the emblem to push all the way in. In hindsight I think I would have had a go at recovering the original pad but figured the genuine replacement might make life a little easier....

I bet all the little tabs break off the emblem bezel when I try to bend them back over too.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on October 21, 2015, 06:31:09
Ivory wheel would look awesome with maroon!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 22, 2015, 07:29:34
The ivory wheel is going to look awesome with any colour.....

The horn pad has really given me some jive, I took it in to work yesterday and warmed it with the hot air gun, the emblem slipped in nicely and looked really good in it's proper place. Struggled like hell to get the chrome outer ring to snap back in to place, the pad itself needed a fair bit of pressure to press down where the emblem goes in, and of course the first couple of tabs on the ring broke.....

I then changed back to the later base, that whilst they look the same other than 3 nuggets on the original that locate into the emblem, and although I can't see it the curve must be slightly different to match the pad as it needs less pressure to push down, so that is the one I'm going with.

The broken tab must have hit the back of the badge as I noticed a dot in the paint, so that had to come out and be repainted. I'm now going to give that a couple of days to fully harden and have put a couple of layers of 3M padded licence plate tape on the horn pad to hold the emblem in place, just like the MB replacement was and I'll forget about the tabs on the chrome ring. I'll warm the pad up a bit too to really make it easy to push the emblem home. Trouble is I'll really only get one shot to get it in straight so I'll mount the pad to the wheel and go for it.

For anyone else going to do this, the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing, I could have just pushed the old badge out from the back and pushed the new one in from the front. Instead I've had a load of stress and grief to achieve the same result....

My new fuel injectors arrived too, so that was good.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 24, 2015, 05:48:01
I think I am missing some windshield trim. When JamesL came to visit with his 280SL I noticed he had additional chrome/aluminium trim on the inside of his windshield frame between the outer chrome trim and the inner leather covered piece, picture 1. Pictures 2,3, and 4 are mine.

I do not have this and at the time didn't realize anything was missing, mine is VIN 04260 and is mid 1964, maybe this was a later addition or maybe it was on all cars from the word go. I don't know and am hoping that someone can shed some light on this and if it should be there point me in the right direction for getting some.

I found a few more pictures of the inner windshield trim on this site.

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7310.0

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=8234.0

I ma also missing the inner leather covered trim. I assume this is a wood piece that is covered like the upright windshield trim pieces.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on October 24, 2015, 06:51:39
Scott,

Here is a photo of my top right hand side for the “65 230SL

Quite different ??? There is a second inner piece you are missing.

Garry
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on October 24, 2015, 17:05:55
Garry, sure do like your car's pajamas! Classy
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on October 24, 2015, 20:55:49
Jon,

Pagodas in Pajamas. Its amazing how much crap the jammys collect on them. ::)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 25, 2015, 07:28:54
So it looks like I'm missing quite a lot then, more good news!

Garry what are they made of? Do you think they are chromed brass/steel or do you think they are aluminium.

I have emailed Shaun at MB to see if they are available so might have some luck there, if not I'll have to see what I can find.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on October 25, 2015, 07:35:56
Scott,

I think they are chromed steel.  Also what do you have on the A pillar, there is some chrome there that is not on the late 250 and 280’s as well.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 25, 2015, 13:04:07
All I have is what you see in the picture. There is the chrome wrap around piece on the upright and the weatherstrip channel.

What else should there be? I wouldn't mind seeing a few close up shots of what the inside leather covered trim should look like.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: 66andBlue on October 25, 2015, 17:08:58
Scott,
do NOT look at the 280SL, you'll just get confused.
Garry's photo shows exactly what you are missing, a wide trim piece that slips over the one you do have. I have marked it with red arrows.
Notice that your holders for the visors and the lock for the top are sitting on the trim whereas in Garry's photo they are kind of incorporated with the missing piece.
There is also a piece missing under the lock - can see it?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 25, 2015, 17:51:11
Yes I can see what Garry is referring to. It is listed on the sls website but not available. I will see what MB come up with. I was interested to see what Garry was referring to on the A-pillar, I didn't think I was missing anything from there, mind you I didn't know I was missing anything from the windshield so that doesn't count for much.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on October 25, 2015, 21:28:04
Scott,

Here is another photo of the top and also one of the A Pillar to ensure you have the pieces for that as well.

When SLS indicate that they don’t have the item it often means that MB is selling it. Those small end pieces come up on eBay sometimes.

Hope that helps

Garry

Jon, Bella will start complaining I keep pulling her Pajamas off!!!!!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: 66andBlue on October 25, 2015, 22:43:55
Here is one third of what you want: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221717184111
plus another quarter: http://www.ebay.com/itm/351343826897
Shoot Sam at EUROCARS an email and ask him for a package deal!   ;)

And here is a bidding alternative: http://www.ebay.de/itm/272027010741
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 26, 2015, 05:16:49
Thanks Alfred. I had seen the corner trim on there but not the piece that goes behind the latch. I already have the latches and they are away being plated.

Garry I am missing those upright pieces too......

Will see what Shaun from MB comes up with, then Tom at the classic centre, then ebay and here....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Benz Dr. on October 26, 2015, 14:04:43
Thanks very much Scott. Those pictures can be very useful to understand the inside construction and the potential rust areas.

I think this is a rust area/path that is not well understood because it's hidden. My own hypothesis is that the water originates from the soft-top box and, due to improper drainage, ends up inside the rockers. Once inside there, it ends up pooling at one of the ends, depending on whether the car is tilted nose up or down. As far as I know, there are no drain holes from the inside of the rocker; so once there, the water has a long dwell time. (The drain holes visible from outside are to drain the water that is between the rocker and rocker cover).

Meyer

The rockers do have drain holes front and rear. They're about 5 mm so they can plug plug up easily. Repro rockers don't have these holes so they should be added during replacement. 
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: cabrioletturbo on October 26, 2015, 15:48:53
Dr. Benz, could you provide a picture or description where those holes are supposed to be?
Thanks.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 26, 2015, 18:42:57
Yes it would be useful to see a picture of where the drain holes should be.

I haven't heard back from Shaun about the missing windshield trim but the classic centre say it isn't available so I am not too confident that he will be able to help. I have sent an email to euro car parts to see if he has any more to go with the ones listed on ebay, and I have put a wanted ad in the classifieds, Garry I used your pictures, I hope that's OK.

Still can't decide on colour, I have samples of all 3 contenders now and have shown them to a few friends and the general consensus is to go with the original burgundy red, much to JamesL's delight...I have been trawling the web for pictures of cars in this colour and have found a few, I must admit I'm starting to lean a little this way myself. I don't know really how much it may or may not affect the resale value of the car by not being in it's original colour.

Whilst I am not doing this to sell I guess it has to be a consideration, I am changing a few things on the car from factory spec anyway, ie USA to euro headlights, euro rear number plate trim, and probably leather trim over MBTex, and of course the 5 speed transmission, so I guess the whole originality thing has gone for a ball of chalk to a certain extent, although it would be relatively easy to change all that back with the exception of the interior material, but I wonder would anybody bother?

Anyway I can't make up my mind and the way it's going I don't need to decide any time soon.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mnahon on October 26, 2015, 18:53:21
Hi Dan, I would also be extremely interested to figure out where these drain holes are supposed to be. If you give me a text description (e.g. distance from rear of front wheelwell; distance from front of rear wheelwell; and distance from the bottom of the rocker), I can try to get a picture from Stick's archive and sketch in the holes to see if you agree with the placement.

Thanks,

Meyer
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 02, 2015, 20:46:15
I got the horn pad finished up tonight. I tell you nothing went easy on that job, you would think swapping an emblem would be the simplest thing but it was a bear from start to finish. Looks nice now though.

I'm hoping to start on the bodywork proper this weekend.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: star63 on November 02, 2015, 21:54:38
I don't know how many tabs you broke of the emblem bezel (I broke one of mine). But your steering wheel looks absolutely perfect!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 03, 2015, 07:55:30
Thanks Petri

I broke a couple of tabs but in the end wound up cutting them all off anyway. I was really struggling to get the emblem and ring into the new horn pad as the hole is slightly too small for it and needed heat, when I pushed the emblem in to place the chrome ring came off and by then the emblem was stuck in and not going anywhere. I cut the tabs off and filed them smooth, heated up the pad again and managed to get the chrome ring on but it was really tight and very hard to get in, it's not going anywhere now though.

I got these a while back, my rear floor pieces are in pretty sorry shape and I was going to make new ones then saw these on ebay, they were removed from a new car in 1971 and stored since then, they are absolutely like new!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 05, 2015, 20:01:49
So this is the culmination of several weeks in my garage in the evenings having catalogued all the various fasteners and wotnot ready for plating. I have everything pretty much ready to go now, there's a lot of stuff there!

I'm past the point of no return now with regard to nuts and bolts, I had each set neatly labelled in bags with their location written on and then separated into sections, engine bay, suspension, etc etc, now they are all in one big box ready to go to the platers. I should imagine the bill for plating will be fairly stiff but I'm immune to it now.

What I do have though is a 40 page document listing where they all go, the sizes, and what each component uses, along with around 800 photos.....I tell you digital cameras have changed my life!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 05, 2015, 20:03:38
Here's a few more of various bits ready to be plated.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 05, 2015, 20:19:50
My Getrag got a clean bill of health from Neil at All-gears so they are going to press on with the rebuild of the transmission, it really only needs a freshen up, new bearings and synchros etc. So with that news I ordered the conversion kit from Mark Turnbull which arrived today. I have ordered the new mounts and coupler from BMW too so should have those next week. All-gears are going to have the casing vapour blasted for me too, and have the fasteners yellow plated so they tie in with everything else on the car.

I'll have the cross member powder coated satin black and I think I'll get the adapter plate yellow plated so it all looks a bit more like it should be there. I'll have a look at it when the transmission is in but I have half an idea to try and get hold of another factory transmission cross member and cut it down so it can be fitted along with the new 5 speed cross member, just a thought at the moment.

My clever scheme of buying the car and removing the gearbox then selling the car on wasn't so clever after all and blew up in my face a little bit....So I reckon that extra gear will have cost me about £2500 at the end of it, that was around the same as the kit to put the 5 speed in the mustang, but that was with a brand new T5 transmission, and the clutch, pedal box etc, I did look at the 6 speed option that I've seen advertised which I think was around $7000, so I guess I'm still on the right side of things..

We put a 6 speed into an early Corvette several years back and I didn't like it, the ratios were so short you were constantly changing gear and couldn't get in to 6th unless you were doing around 100mph, by which time you were too terrified to remove your hands from the steering wheel to change gear anyway. We have fitted lots of 5 speeds to Vettes and I think they are about perfect given the rear end ratios which seem similar to the Mercedes ratios of the day.

I sure hope I like this car at the end of it....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 05, 2015, 20:50:48
I just got a message from my chrome plater, one of my dash vents tried to kill the polisher so I need another, anyone got a spare???
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 06, 2015, 20:30:35
We got some sandblasted parts back today and amongst them were my heater box, the new battery tray, the replacement alternator mount, courtesy of Naj, and all the aluminium parts that weren't up to par the last time. They have come out really nicely now so that is all very pleasing, another task that can be ticked off the list.

It's all a pretty slow process really, if only everything was like it was on TV, I'd have had this done in 7 days....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 10, 2015, 06:10:13
I made a proper start on the sheet metal repairs on Saturday. First job was to get the body levelled up on the cradle which took a while. That may prove to be unnecessary but nice to have a good level datum to work from. I was unsure if I would have to get new toe boards or not so the first job was to remove the foremost part of the front floorpans to see if they were rotten where the two pieces joined. I had already cut a section out that was rusty to have a look inside the rockers. I may wind up replacing the bottom portion of the RH front but the drivers side seems ok and is just a little bent out of shape where I guess someone tried to jack the car up.

I also drilled the spot welds from the drivers side front floor to the rocker to see what that portion of the rocker was like and it seemed good. I wasn't sure how high up I would need to go on the repair of the rocker but I think I can keep it all pretty low and just replace the very bottom section all the way along rather than the whole thing.

I was going to get these:

http://www.sls-hh-shop.de/230-280SL-R113/62-Rohbau-Karosserie/61-Blechteile-Bodengruppe-230SL-250SL-280SL/Rep-Unterteil-Laengstraeger-li-Rep-Unterteil-Laengstraeger-li.html

Anyone got any experience of these? My only concern id that the profile is different to original and may cause me problems, it is either that or I make a former and get a piece bent to pattern, that would take longer and cost more but at least I know it would fit straight up.

I then started to look at the area under the rear parcel shelf. This is where quite a lot of the problems are on my car, in that floor area and the part of the frame rail that connects to the rocker, so it took me a while to figure the best way to tackle it. I had some Corvette parts to paint as well so I had to keep stopping to do that...

The replacement floor parts I got for that area are really not great so I am hoping to avoid using them. I think I can keep the area that needs replacing fairly small and make a new piece for that. The part that is cut out for the cover plate is not as pronounced on the new part and the shape is nowhere near as crisp on the repro, also the part that is rotten on mine is in the outboard corner where it drops right down to a point and that is missing on the repro panel so I'd have to make it anyway, all a bit disappointing really.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 10, 2015, 06:26:15
Once all that was out the way I started to look at the frame rail kick up by the back of the rocker, this is all very manky on mine. Once again I want to start small and keep the repair to a minimum. I started to cut the bad metal out the way. The inner fender had a few holes in the lower forward edge. Initially I was going to cut small areas out and replace them but after looking at it for a while I decided to remove a fair chunk of the inner fender to give me access to the area that I need to repair, and also decided it would be better to replace that entire section.

I cut away a fair chunk of the frame rail probably as far back as I need to go now. I left the part of the parcel shelf floor in there to spot weld to. I still have the piece at the front to cut out but by this time I was running out of day. We have a policy at work of no heat, cutting, welding, sparks of any kind in the last hour of business which I am strict about so I spent the last hour or so tidying up and priming the bits I had sandblasted.

I have the front part of that frame rail to remove where it attaches to the rocker, I think that will be a bit of a rave but I want to try and disturb as little as possible around it. My lack of familiarity with these cars means it will take me a little longer as I have to figure out each stage but I think it will come out ok. I am not really a naturally gifted sheet metal guy either so I have to work a bit harder at it than I'd like!

Just for reference the bottom picture shows the material removed laid over the replacement panel, I will need to replace all the metal forward of these pieces but I think I am about as far back as I need to go, I have all good steel from there backward. I am still deciding whether to weld along the length of the frame rail or cut it right back to the inner fender and spot weld it. I want to do a series of single sided welds with The Chief and see how they look and feel. I want to make sure they are going to be strong enough as I can't get the pincers in there to do a double sided weld.

I will have to replace a small area of the main rear cross member on both sides too, just where it joins the floor.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 10, 2015, 20:13:07
The gearbox parts I had ordered from BMW arrived today so once the transmission comes back from all gears, hopefully looking and feeling brand new, I'll be all set, I have both parts of prop shaft and the new BMW end bush so I can send that away to get altered.

I also top coated the satin black parts for the heater, gas tank and battery tray, and top coated the rest of the brown bits for the doors, floor, and glove box. I'm hoping to try and bunk off work for a couple of days or so next week to get a bit more into the body repairs.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 19, 2015, 06:59:46
I was kindly sent the barrels and caps from a later heater control assembly courtesy of CTaylor and Naj, thanks for that. With those I managed to cobble together my heater control. It is not strictly correct but is functional.

The left hand plastic mount for the bulb holder was broken and I guess worst case I could have glued it back together but there were a couple of bits of plastic housing missing so it would have always been a bit of a bodge. Fortunately the RH side seems to be exactly the same part so I used that on the LH sde and replaced the RH one with the one off the later control which doesn't need the wire holder piece. If I find the correct bulb holder before the dash goes back together then I'll replace it with the correct one.

Seems to be OK although I haven't fully assembled it all as I need to clean everything first. I need to clean and polish the plastic levers to see how they come out. I would like to use them again if I can clean them up sufficiently. I had ordered a new assembly from MB but when it arrived it had the later style levers so I returned that. Seems that there are a few different types aftermarket, some have one clear heater lever, some are tinted, mine is either tinted or old....

I suspect like most things if I can stick with original items I'll be better off. They are pretty scruffy though so we'll see.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 19, 2015, 07:15:44
I carried on with cutting out bits of my car last Saturday. It is all getting a bit more involved than I had planned. I was hoping to be able to nibble away at the bit of frame rail that had to come out between the rocker and the rear seat cross member, and then slip the new piece in to place, but there was just no access to it. I had already cut out the rotten metal at the bottom of the cross member to replace it so figured I may as well take the end of the cross member out to give me better access for the repair.

I was worried that this might unsettle the body a bit but was pleased that when I made the last cut nothing had moved. I also took the bottom of the B-post off so I could get in there to take out the last piece of frame rail. It all seems very well supported on my cradle so I think I was worrying unnecessarily.

I did think about getting a new end piece of cross member made rather than repairing the original so it didn't have any welds in it but it is such a complex shape with the curved ends that sit on the frame rail and it seems to fit the repair panel really well so I will just make new bottom sections for it and weld them on then refit that piece of cross member after it all goes back together.

The inside of the panel that holds the trailing arm mount is a bit pitted on the inside but I am very reluctant to change it as the replacement panel looks like it might not be very good, I will order one and see what it is like but I think I may give mine a good clean and rust treat it all. I'm sure it has a few years in it yet...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 19, 2015, 07:32:29
My rocker dilemma continues...

I cut a couple of bigger access holes in the bottom of the LH rocker to have a better look at them inside. I really don't want to replace the whole thing as it looks like a nightmare of a job. I priced up the replacements from SLS, Poland, and Mercedes. The MB ones are significantly more but I think if I wind up doing the whole thing then that is the route I would go as they are genuine and one would hope the fit is correct. Also I'm still sticking to my original MO in that I want to use genuine parts wherever it is not prohibitive to do so. Thus far the only thing I have not had the stomach for are the bumpers.

It looks a pretty invasive repair though, and mine just aren't bad enough to warrant all that upheaval. I know too that no matter what they just aren't going to go back in as well as the original ones that come out. At the moment I am going to stick with the original plan of replacing just the bottom section where the pitting is. I cut out a pattern for my sheet metal man but his folder isn't long enough to handle the full length so I need to find someone with a bigger machine.

It's pretty annoying as that is one of the few areas of the car that looked pretty good as it was all coming apart but the sandblasting just showed up a couple of small holes in the bottom of the rocker, it would be like a patchwork quilt by the time I'd repaired each one, and the metal in the bottom is quite pitted so I'd rather deal with it all. It is what it is I guess.

I stuck my phone in through the holes and took some pictures of the lunar landscape inside my sills.....

These are all the LH rocker looking forwards.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 19, 2015, 07:33:52
The first one is also looking forwards and the next two are the LH rocker looking back.

Crazy huh!

The plus side of doing it this way is once the bottom is cut out I can give everything in there a really good clean and if it doesn't come out well I can go the whole hog. I think it will rust treat absolutely fine though. We repair Corvette chassis in a worse state than this without too much trouble.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: RobSirg on November 19, 2015, 11:56:12
Doesn't look too bad Scott - I'd be treating and patching as you suggest........as for my project car......... I bought new sills from K&K but mine were in much worse condition.

I get what you say about buying original MB. I bought many panels from Poland and Germany and most had some minor fit issues (some major) which ran into huge labour costs to correct. Some were so badly out of dimension we didn't bother installing - we simply cut parts off the replacement panels and patched.

If/when I do another - it will be MB Original all the way (within reason). Hopefully the K&K sills don't give us trouble when they get around to that part.

Rob
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mnahon on November 19, 2015, 13:42:20
Hi Scott,

I agree with Rob that they don't look that bad.

I'm really enjoying your pictures of the rockers. I'm pretty convinced that most of our cars look similar or worse in that area, though most of us never look. It's pretty clear from your pictures that water was sitting in the bottom of the rockers for extended periods. I think this was one area of the car where the design could have been better to give that water a better chance of getting out; or not getting in, in the first place.

Meyer
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 19, 2015, 21:10:57
No they aren't too bad, I think replacing the bottom section along it's length will be a good repair that is strong and invisible. I don't think there is a real need to get into the massive task of replacing the rocker in it's entirety, but I don't want to do numerous patch repairs either.

I think on the whole I have gotten away fairly lightly with body repairs compared to what some of you guys are having to deal with. I paid quite a bit for this car at auction though, being led to believe it was rust free and it clearly wasn't....Still, ultimate responsibility lies with me, I should know better!

Meyer I think all cars have water traps and weak spots somewhere, Corvettes suffer in pretty much the same areas all the time. I can't imagine they were ever built to last 50 years or more so I guess they aren't doing too badly. I'll paint inside the rockers before I close them up, and after as best I can. I'll also inject all the box sections with a rust preventative to protect what I can as best I can.

Rob so far I have gotten most of the repair panels from Mercedes even though some have been repro as they weren't available OE, the only parts I have been very unhappy with are the floors under the rear parcel shelf, they are pretty bad but everything else looks like it is well made. I got the rear frame rails and seat members from K and K, the rear frame rails look nice although not perfect, the seat members are quite different and I will only use sections of them.

Better that than not being able to get anything though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 30, 2015, 07:54:06
Fairly slow progress I'm afraid. I don't seem to have an awful lot of spare time for this car at the moment.

I spent last Saturday trimming the chassis repair section to fit, which seemed to take an eternity. It fits not too badly on the whole though. I started out by measuring a couple of points to get a rough dimension, then I double checked that with some cardboard templates and gradually whittled it down until it fits.

In the pictures there is a gap between the two pieces but I was having trouble holding it all in place and doing up the clamps on my own. When you push the piece in it seems to but up nice and tight so I think will go in pretty well.

I think I will need to put a split along it's length a little ways though so I can get both corners to tie up with the original piece as the profile seems just a little off.

The Saturday before I repaired one of the splash guards but we had a power cut at work so I had to go home and have a nap instead.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 30, 2015, 08:07:08
I spent the afternoon starting on the repair pieces for the rear cross member. This took longer than you would imagine. We aren't that geared up for metal fabrication because we have never had to do that much. We have always had lots of chassis sections for Corvettes and I have a good metal fab guy near us. We are gradually running out of these parts though and the last two frames that Ronni has had to repair we have wound up having to make a lot of the parts so I am in the process of trying to get a decent metal folder and whatnot to set up a little metal shop at our place.

I think I need to get my finger out on that one....Anyway it's getting there slowly. These aren't finished yet as they need a couple of tweaks here and there, I also don't want to go to far with them until I have got the rocker in and decided if I am going to replace the trailing arm mounts or not. I was hoping to avoid that but I think they are too pitted. I am concerned about the quality of the repro parts though

I talked with my fabricator about the repair sections for the rockers and his folder isn't big enough. I found another place that can do them but think I am going to get the ones from SLS. I really need to get myself organized with this and get them ordered as the next stage to cut the rocker out, but I don't want to do that until I have the part here and am ready to go, but I seem to be dilly dallying a bit.

Maybe subconsciously I'm too scared....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 03, 2015, 07:16:29
The new alternator arrived a couple of days back. It is an AL74X 55amp alternator and is externally regulated. My original pulley doesn't fit, the fins on the back of the fan catch on the alternator housing. I think it needs a 2mm spacer on the main shaft. I have a 3.8mm one off a Corvette that fits so I'll wait until I have the engine back and can mount it before I go getting anything machined. It may be that the spacer I have doesn't throw out the belt alignment and will do the job.

For anyone looking I got it from Summit Racing of all places and it was significantly less there than anywhere else with only a $10 core charge, in fact I expected to get an email saying the order couldn't be fulfilled but it turned up no problem.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 03, 2015, 07:27:06
On the same shipment was the chrome windshield trim pieces that I was missing, along with the replacement inside door handle and parking brake cable housing. The windshield trim pieces are in good shape, one of the bits that goes under the catch had flattened out a little but I got that back into shape with my favourite hammer and have sent them off to be rechromed.

I also had my sheet metal guy make me a repair section for the rear panel that had been cut for speakers which I'm very happy with, so when I get the car down off the jack stands I'll make inroads into getting those let in.

I have ordered the rocker repair sections from SLS so hopefully they will turn up soon. This is the first time I have ordered from them so be interesting to see how that goes. It is probably going to be in the new year before I really get chance to get into this in a big way, Our rotisserie is in use on a Corvette at present and I really want to use it on this job, also I'm just too busy to take any time out for this project at the moment, and I really want to be able to set aside a couple of days to get the old rocker out and the new one in rather than it drag out over a series of Saturdays.

That's the trouble with working, it really does eat into ones day....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 03, 2015, 08:08:10
I've also uploaded the two most recent videos to youtube, nothing particularly interesting in either, and they are mostly for my records/history file but for anyone interested....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA_IKRB0DMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMtP4caLza4
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 06, 2015, 08:32:50
I spent Saturday buggering about with odds and ends and decided to repair the hole that was in the front part of the rear inner fenders and the B-post. Thought it might be easier to get into it with that part of the chassis rail out the way. I could also do my weld from the inside of the B-post there as it is cut out at the moment.

Not much to say about it really, cut the rot out, made a new piece and welded it in.....it was pretty awkward to get to and a bit fiddly. The repair for the inner fender has two curves to it so that took a little while. Can you believe this took most of the day to do both sides.

Pretty significant though as it is the first bit I've put back in the car rather than cutting bits out..
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on December 06, 2015, 22:20:32
I thought my rocker panels were solid until I thumped them with a rubber mallet.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 09, 2015, 21:02:13
Yeah I thought mine were too until the sandblaster proved me wrong. Still I'd rather find out and deal with it now. That happened with Ronni's VW, I had all new sills fitted around 7 years ago and the guy I had do it fitted them over rotten heater channels, so I had to do it all again last year and have the whole car repainted....but that's a whole 'nother story!

I had to stay at work tonight to paint some rockers for a 63 Vette that Ronni is working on so they are ready for tomorrow. Rather than watch the paint dry I sandblasted and cleaned the horns and gave them a coat of primer, so at least I used my time wisely....

I know it's a bit random to be doing the horns now but if I start grinding or whatever then I have to hang around for another hour on spark watch. It all makes sense really!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on December 10, 2015, 17:35:41
Did you re-test the horns after re-assembly? I understand these can be sort of finicky.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 11, 2015, 08:51:41
I haven't reassembled yet, I tested one after I had taken it apart and it worked OK.

There was some pitting on the grilles so I filled that last night and will sand them down today, then I'll need to prime again and top coat them. It looked to me like the horns were gloss black rather than satin black, would you agree with that?

I have also ordered some gasket paper to make new gaskets from and I don't think I'll get that for a couple of days so I doubt the horns will go back together until next week.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 15, 2015, 06:08:45
I started on the repair of the rear bulkhead where the holes for the speakers had been fitted. A friend of mine had made me a repair section.

Ronni's dad gave me a spot weld drill he'd had for a while and not used much, and it is absolutely superb:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BERGEN-AIR-SPOT-WELD-DRILL-B8212-/131671320747?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

I hadn't seen one of these before and was a bit sceptical but it is a mega thing. I would recommend one if you have more than a couple to drill out, once the depth is set you just drill away without worrying about going through the second skin. I normally use a spot weld drill in a normal battery drill and you have to watch it a bit on the depth, this made it a piece of cake. Yopu definitely need goggles though, it spits out shrapnel like I don't know what!

Anyway they are sort of there, I just need to put a kink on the outside bottom edge and then trim the bottom flush, weld them in, and hey ho silver!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 19, 2015, 07:58:26
Have been carrying on with the rear seat panel and have got both pieces welded in. I need to grind the welds smooth now and then spot weld the bottom of the panel in, I left the gap on the right of the panel a bit too wide so that part didn't come out too well. Nice to see it without the holes that were chewed out of it though.

I'll finish them up today and then press 'The Chief' into action, I've used it a couple of times on some Corvette work and it certainly seems an awesome piece of kit.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 19, 2015, 08:09:15
I spent last Saturday trying to repair the LH inner fender below the battery tray. Had a real waste of a day on the car and must admit wish I hadn't bothered. I was trying to keep the repair small but the metal around it is quite pitted and thin and I wound up just blowing holes in the original panel. My repair piece kept getting bigger and bigger and I was still struggling so decided to abandon that repair and hide it in my 'Bag O Shame'.

I can't show you the end result because I was so hacked off with it I didn't take a picture and can't now because I won't look at it....

I will have to order a new inner fender and cut out the piece that I need, making that bit is beyond my metal working skills, if only these cars were GRP!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 19, 2015, 08:15:57
The new rocker repair sections arrived from SLS, They look pretty good. The profile at the top of the rocker has a sharper bend than the factory one so if you wanted to use it to repair a short length it would pose problems trying to match it up, but replacing the whole length shouldn't be too bad.

I had a measure best I could and it looks like it may be slightly wider overall so that might prove a challenge although hard to say until you start offering it up. I have got a pair of original ones coming on my next USA shipment thanks to the eagle eyes of Shvegel so will see what they are like and then decide which ones to use.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 20, 2015, 06:26:43
I ground the welds on the rear panel yesterday but didn't do the spot welding, I'll wait until there is more to do.

I would have preferred it if it had come out looking perfectly smooth and needing no filler but I was a bit nervous of the metal getting too thin as it had to be ground on both sides not just on the top of the weld. I guess once it has had a light skim then painted and carpeted over it will look great.

I'm pleased with the overall effect though, nice to see it without the speaker holes, they really did bug me. At least when you look inside the boot it will all look proper now.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 20, 2015, 06:46:38
I started to look at the soft top storage bin yesterday afternoon and as usual the job got a bit bigger. There were a few pin holes in the inner fender, not very many and certainly not enough to replace the panel but figured I'd need to deal with those before going any further.

For the most part I was able to drill them out and let in a 5/16" disc that I punched out of an offcut or just spot them in, there were two areas that were pitted and a bit thin so I cut those out and will make two new bits to go in.

I have been curious about these drain holes as I have read on this forum about the rubber tube that directs water into the rocker. I don't have this and after a bit of research it seems that the drain holes I have are typical of an early 230SL, there is just a round hole drilled into the side of the storage bin, and there was a right angled steel guide spot welded to the inner fender to direct water down into the rocker. This is where all the rust is on my inner fenders.

I am wondering if I ought to modify my storage bin and put in the later style drain tube or just leave as is and re drill the hole on the new piece that I will let in to the storage bin. At least then that keeps the car a bit more proper like an early car, or should I take this opportunity to improve the drainage....

There was a bit of pitting in the corner of the bin where I think this tube would go so water has clearly laid there for a while. It is worse on the other side. I wonder if the later cars just had the hole in the corner and did away with the drain hole in the side that I have.

Don't know if I'll get much chance to do any more for a while now as we shut down for Christmas next Wednesday and I'm not sure if I'll get the opportunity to do anything over the holidays. My rockers will be here in the new year so will need to finish this bit off and then they will become priority then. I'm just fiddling about with these smaller bits until they come.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: jameshoward on December 20, 2015, 09:29:36
I think improving the drainage is a no brainer. MB did the mod because Plan A wasn't up to the job. I had to sort out this issue with my car also.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 22, 2015, 07:33:08
I'll go for the later style of drains. I am wondering if it might be a further improvement to extend the hoses so that the drain exits the rocker rather than emptying into the rocker itself.

I made a start on the repair pieces for my rear inner fender last night, they still need a bit of fettling but the basic shape is there.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 22, 2015, 07:41:55
Got the most recent batch of chrome back from the platers at the end of last week and I'm really not happy with it at all. I guess around two thirds of it is usable but there are quite a few parts that just aren't up to the mark.

Haven't had a lot of luck with the chrome on this car. I am having them do the hubcaps again as the chrome looked bad on the stars, the wheel trims came back with rust holes in them, and now this lot. They have bent one of the trims that goes under the dash, bust one of my vents, and the other one has come out terrible. There is a blister on the tail light frames, all the seat frame side plates are shocking, and so it goes on.

One of the worst items are the door and trunk lock push buttons, they have been polished away to a sharp edge where the lock barrel goes in and now have a 'sharp' edge rather than a real squared off edge. maybe that is all that could be done but I would have rather they had called me before it was chromed so I haven't wasted money on plating them. Looks like I'll need to buy new door handles and trunk lock now...

I must admit when stuff like this happens it really puts a whole downer on the job.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on December 22, 2015, 15:06:09
Which plater did you use?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 22, 2015, 20:44:03
JD Wyatt in Thetford, have used them for years and years, normally fine with the odd problem piece, but this Mercedes seems to be nothing but trouble in the chrome department! Who do you use?

I stayed a bit tonight and welded one side of the inner fender repair in. I am not a natural sheet metal guy although it is a skill I would like to possess, so I it is a bit of a learning curve for me. Generally if it is anything like a wind shield frame repair or something at our place then Ronni does it as she is more sheet metal oriented than I am, in fact she is one of these gifted (annoying...?) people that can do just about anything well! I love her for it though.

Anyway I'm reasonably pleased with the way it is going, few ups and downs, but OK on the whole. I'm doing all the hidden bits first so I have a bit more leeway, seems to take me a little while to find my feet with this kind of thing, by the time I got to the end of the Mustang and VW I felt pretty good about the welding side of things but having had a break from it all and then starting again I've kind of lost my flow.

At least I've got plenty to practice on.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on December 22, 2015, 23:00:06
I use Collonade in Wembley. Slow and expensive but thorough.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: jameshoward on December 23, 2015, 10:42:09
http://www.cromagevoorspoels.be/

He's outstanding. Doesn't do much car stuff, as he normally does 30s-50s US duke boxes and pinball stuff, etc. Hence his attention to detail is off the scale. I used him for to reweld my chrome star and fix my surround, and rechrome the front and rear bumpers. A friend is having a £15K+ paint and bodywork job done by a well-known guy on the A303 and sent his chrome off with mine to save him some money. The sprayer was blown away by the quality and has switched to using the guy even though he's in Belgium, so I'd say that's a pretty good endorsement.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 22, 2016, 06:09:00
Making a little progress since coming back to work in the new year but have been busy with the paying jobs. Got the speaker repair sections spot welded in and finished up the inner fender/soft top box repair. Just waiting for the water guide piece to come from my sheet metal man, then can call the right hand side done, need to start on the left now....

Very pleased with the spot welder, has really made a good job of those panels, looks very proper.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 22, 2016, 06:13:24
The genuine rockers arrived on my last US shipment also, and are a much nicer piece of kit, as one would hope, so have decided that is the way to go and have started to drill out the spot welds holding the complete rocker in place with a view to removing it in the next couple of days.

I also got some very thin gasket paper and cut out new gaskets for the horns, so they are back together although untested at this point. They look very nice though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 23, 2016, 07:26:41
Destruction mode went up to 11 last night when I cut the bulk of the LH rocker out. I have been a little concerned about such an invasive procedure but so far it has all been a piece of cake. I bought a plasma cutter last year when I was heavily into Ronni's VW and it has certainly made short work of this job, It had all been cut out within an hour, a whole bunch easier than the  myriad of grinders, cutting wheels, and grazed knuckles that I had when I was doing the Mustang, I would wholeheartedly recommend one to anyone contemplating this kind of work.

I took measurements of the door aperture before I started, and I also braced the seat crossmember so that stayed where it was. I kept checking my measurements as I went along and nothing seems to have moved, I think maybe the top part of the rocker that is still in the car has bowed out slightly but only by a gnats knacker and I think will straighten out once I pull it in against the new panel, assuming that fits OK, but there doesn't seem to have been any movement at all.

The first picture shows a piece that I cut out and illustrates the full extent of the rust that was inside the rocker, I could have gotten away with just the repair section although there still would have been some pitting and corrosion in there that would have needed cleaning/treating, I would have also had to have made local repairs to the jacking points so this is definitely the nicer repair I think, and of course it keeps it all genuine Mercedes - which is nice.

Once the rest of it is cut out which I will do today I'll clean the remaining metal and then prime and topcoat it all inside with the mushroom colour I had mixed, same with the inside of the new rocker channels. I also got some weld thru primer which I am planning to spray on the inside of the joints before I weld but I'll try a test piece first to make sure it doesn't interfere with the weld.

Am hoping to have the rocker clamped in place by the end of the day so I can weld it in Monday......
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 24, 2016, 20:42:39
Didn't get a full day on the Mercedes on Saturday as I had a customer call in around lunchtime. I got the rest of the rocker cut out and all the metal cleaned up. I had one of my guys clean the black paint of the outside off the rockers and I got a couple of coats of primer on everything.

That was about as far as I got. I went in today and top coated the inside of the rockers and will offer the new part up tomorrow. I'd normally wait until next Saturday but I really want to get the new piece in and solid again.

The painting has really slowed things down but I really want to protect everything in there as best I can, don't want to be doing this again in 10 years time.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Pinder on January 25, 2016, 00:46:04
Looking great. I cant wait to get to the paint stage on mine. Planning on painting the car myself. once the weather warms up.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 27, 2016, 19:19:39
I'm a long way off painting the car yet. Way things are going I'll be lucky for it to be in paint by the end of the year.

Finally got the new rocker welded in though and I am very pleased with the way it has all gone. I think it looks good and my dimensions are all exactly the same, I took a number of measurements fore and aft and top to bottom, I also checked the relationship of the inner sill to the outer where it sits under the door with a profile gauge and it all checked out fine.

Assuming the door fits OK then it is all good....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 27, 2016, 19:25:10
The spot welder has certainly made the job a lot quicker, and much more correct looking than plug welding and grinding. All in all, a great success.

I have a few small welds to finish off, but they will have to wait until I have sorted out the problems with the inner fenders/wheel wells. I also had to bend back a bit of the kick panel to get the rocker out. I have tapped it back down but will need to plug weld that back to the rocker. Once that's done I'll grind it back and then use the spot welder to make it look factory.

Nice to look in the end of the rocker and see it looking all brand new though!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 27, 2016, 19:30:04
I cut the front floor pan out while I had all my gear out still. Whilst I have good access I'll repair the hole in the kick panel that has been cut out for a speaker, once that's done I'll fit the front floor pan. At first try it seems to fit not too badly. It is a repro one that I got from Mercedes so I don't know who the original supplier is.

You can see the big speaker hole in the 2nd picture. Getting the rocker in has given me a bit of a boost. I was starting to get a bit negative about this project but seeing a major part completed is quite pleasing, even though there is still a long way to go.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Pinder on January 28, 2016, 02:46:43
Metalic grey is a great colour choice.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on January 28, 2016, 23:46:55
Looks like you are having fun!

You might want to mount the hardtop before you weld it up.  A fraction of error down low could add up to big problems by the time you get to the top of the windshield post.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: star63 on January 29, 2016, 11:08:49
Great work!

I may have to invest in spot welder...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Benz Dr. on February 01, 2016, 23:02:53
I cut the front floor pan out while I had all my gear out still. Whilst I have good access I'll repair the hole in the kick panel that has been cut out for a speaker, once that's done I'll fit the front floor pan. At first try it seems to fit not too badly. It is a repro one that I got from Mercedes so I don't know who the original supplier is.

You can see the big speaker hole in the 2nd picture. Getting the rocker in has given me a bit of a boost. I was starting to get a bit negative about this project but seeing a major part completed is quite pleasing, even though there is still a long way to go.

I believe that MB never offered floors as a repair part and my dealer's book doesn't show a part number for it. Odd they wouldn't do that.

I think the floors they sell are made in the USA.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 02, 2016, 06:18:37
I have one floor pan prepped and ready to weld in and the fit seems pretty good, they came from Mercedes in Poole but as I say I don't know who made them. They had a sort of mottled grey paint on them when they arrived.

Things are starting to move on quite nicely on this now. I spent a bit of time Friday night and Saturday morning filling the hole in that someone had cut out for a speaker. If I wind up fitting a radio to this car I will stick with just the dash speaker. If I want to listen to music I will use a bluetooth speaker.

I got quite a lot of shrinkage round the weld on the speaker repair that I couldn't dolly out from the back due to lack of access, and I thought I had taken the welding pretty slow but I guess it is what it is, so I gave it a skim of body filler and a coat of primer and it looks great, be even better when it is covered by a kick panel.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 02, 2016, 06:27:49
While all that was going on I carried on with getting the seat belt mounts sorted out. On Naj's recommendation I got in touch with Sue from FDTS http://www.fdts-seatbelts.co.uk/index.html who has been very helpful. I really would have liked a set of original Kangol belts but haven't seen any for sale and don't want static belts, they are always getting caught in door shuts and what have you. Since then I have a set of NOS Kangol buckles coming thanks to Scoot so I can have the retractor belts made up with Kangol buckles and have the best of both worlds.

Sue sent me some spreader plates to weld in and a seat belt retractor to use as a mock up part, I set everything up where I want it. Having done research on this site I decided that under the rear floor boards was the best place for the retractor, and as I am about to weld in that piece of chassis figured I could put the spreader plate in behind there before it was welded on.

Once it was all marked out I spot welded the spreader on and also put a couple of welds on each end in case the spots didn't hold given the massive difference in metal thickness, last thing I want is the retainer plate starting to turn as I tighten the bolt up....I thought I'd then give them a coat of paint on the inside and while that was drying I got on with.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 02, 2016, 06:41:19
...the seat crossmember repairs. I had got a replacement from K&K and I don't know if they are different on a later car but these were a mile off, the drivers side was taller and slightly deeper and didn't appear to have a slope to it, the passengers side one is maybe a half inch deeper than the drivers side one, so much so that the bridging piece of floorpan was not wide enough to reach past it to weld to the floor properly. Also the seat retainers aren't as nice.

As a result of this I am only using the upright portion of it, so I trimmed the front floorpan to the right size and marked out the section I wanted to use. I originally planned to use a joggle to weld the two together but the new piece was thicker than the original so that wasn't going to work. I don't like joggling as a rule as I don't like to see that on the inside of a panel but I figured it was completely enclosed so wouldn't get seen and would be a bit stronger, however was not to be.

In the end I but welded it. I'm pleased with how it has come out, The flange on the crossmember is just about a perfect match to the floorpan, the bridging piece doesn't fit too well, which is disappointing as it came from the same supplier as the floors.

The weld thru primer is good, I have been using it on all the joints, I did a test piece and it didn't seem to affect the weld one iota, I figure it has to give better protection than leaving it in bare steel so will stick with it. I had one of my guys start seam sealing the repairs I had done up to now so I could get a coat of primer on the welds round the rockers etc and he has made a nice job of that so we are starting to get somewhere now.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 02, 2016, 06:54:29
And that's where were at right now. I have the chassis repair section and the front floor pan trimmed and ready to go on that side, all I need to do first is weld on the bracket for the accelerator pedal. I have sandblasted/sanded the paint of the areas to weld and sprayed the weld thru on. Once they are in I will start on refitting the bits of B-post and rear crossmember I cut out for access, then the rear floorpan, and I have the same repair to do on the rear of the seat crossmember. It certainly is a fairly long process.

I then have the Trailing arm floor section to repair. It is not rotten through but is quite pitted inside so I wanted to do something with it. I got a replacement but it really is garbage and only any good if the original is beyond repair. I can't bring myself to cut the original out to replace it with that so unless I can find good originals I will have to make sections and repair what I have. It is only the outer third that really needs replacing so I think I can do something with it.

I'm really enjoying myself on it at the moment though and have renewed enthusiasm. Question is for how long, got the same again on the other side yet....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 02, 2016, 08:38:46
Looks like you are having fun!

You might want to mount the hardtop before you weld it up.  A fraction of error down low could add up to big problems by the time you get to the top of the windshield post.

That's easier said than done at the moment. I have no mount points anywhere and the car is 6 feet up, but it wouldn't be a bad idea. Also the hardtop is in a different location.

I was pretty careful with my measurements, also the cradle the car is bolted to supports the front and rear pretty well so in theory there is nowhere for it to go, and certainly the measurements didn't alter all the way through so I think it is being held pretty rigidly. The rotisserie bolts onto 8 mount points round the body and there is a pretty substantial brace in the door aperture.

Corvettes suffer very badly with this, in fact once the body is removed from the chassis it is a big no no to open both doors and on a roadster even with both doors closed the rear door gaps will open out massively. The rotisserie framework we got from the same people to hold a Corvette body holds it so rigidly that both doors can be opened and gaps aren't affected at all. It really is a well thought out piece of kit.

Of course it may well bite me yet.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 11, 2016, 07:38:26
I had to work all Saturday on a Corvette I was getting ready for the painter so my weekly Pagode had to get delayed until Tuesday. I had a fairly busy day with only a little bit of Corvetting to disturb me...

I had got the chassis repair piece in place and had tacked and welded that in over the previous evenings, I just had to tidy the welds up a bit and then spot weld the panel in. What you would imagine not taking long took ages, everything needed little tweaks to get it in the right place. the profile of the new piece was very slightly different to the original so I had to split the new bit along it's length a couple of inches to be able to push it to meet the original and then zip it back up.

In hindsight I may have been better trying to replace the entire length, although I'm sure that would have brought it's own issues. I'll maybe go that route when it comes to replacing the other side.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 11, 2016, 08:07:35
Once everything was in position I started to spot weld it in. I have coated all the joints with weld thru primer to give it a bit of protection which seems to be working well for me. The spot welder makes short work of the weld but is still time consuming as I have to G cramp the work in place then spot weld either side, then move the clamp, spot weld and so on. Still makes life a lot easier and looks more correct, even though the spot welds differ very slightly from the original Mercedes ones, once they are painted over you would need to look pretty hard to tell.

Once that was in I started on the drivers front floor pan. I had got this pretty much where I wanted but needed another pair of hands to help me push everything into place. Again that was a pretty slow process but by the end of the day the floor was in a fits well. I had a bit of a job where the floor has a curve by the gas pedal as the profile didn't match so I had to use sheet metal screws to pull the two panels together then spot weld. once that was done I removed the screws and welded the holes...

I had originally planned to spot weld the gas pedal mount to the floor before the floor pan went in but the bracket would have been right over the area I had to weld so I'll put that in after. I also had a few little repairs to do on the bottom of the toeboard. I was going to replace it but it just wasn't bad enough so I dollied it back into shape and plug welded a couple of small holes once the floor pan was in.

It's all going OK, taking forever though.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: vegimite on February 11, 2016, 12:06:14
Hi Scott,
I also own a 64 230SL RHD which I bought in California. the car originally came from Blackburn UK. I have just completed a total restoration...........and your right about expensive parts.
Further to that I have a nice 65 Corvette I bought from Texas 5 yrs ago...it was already restored but I have added a few personal touches.
I live in Australia on the Gold Coast
good luck with the W113 project.
Paul Nelson
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on February 11, 2016, 14:34:47
You are aware that the right inner sill is different for RHD cars?
It has a relief in it for the throttle (driver's foot).
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on February 11, 2016, 21:17:43
Is that an oops I heard :P

Vegimite, nice cars.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: vegimite on February 11, 2016, 22:47:03
Yes....... Stick you are correct.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 12, 2016, 08:48:22
No oops here.....Mines LHD

I had read somewhere that the rocker was different on RHD cars but had forgotten that so could have been an issue. The other difference between my original one and the replacement is that the flange that welds to the toe board on the original faced in so couldn't be seen from inside the car, whereas the replacement faces out so can be seen.

Yes nice cars Vegemite. I just sold a 66 coupe almost identical to yours. i did fancy keeping it but got too many projects things on the go as it is. Those mid year coupes are great cars though but my heart lies with the solid axle cars, this is my 62 327/340hp 4 speed.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 23, 2016, 06:47:25
I've been working on the part of the floor under the rear floorboards. The repair section I got doesn't have the right shape where it meets the rear crossmember so I left as much of that floor piece in as possible and made up a new bit to go in the bottom corner.

My first attempt didn't work out too well. I made the bend on our stretcher but that put the curve at 90 degrees to the flange and it needed to be more like 130 degrees so I made a second one, had to bend it and then put a slot in the flange to fold it round and make a fillet to go in. It was a bugger to get all the folds and angles in the right place but it came out OK in the end.

Having not seen any others I don't know if the dipping down in the corner is only for early cars or what.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 23, 2016, 06:53:47
Once that was done I had a go at the rear crossmember. I had had to cut this out to get access to the chassis section that needed repair, also it was rotten along both bottom edges. I had already made a repair piece for this but wasn't happy with it so made another template and had another go.

I think I must have been paying for a sin or two that day because nothing I did went right, the second one failed miserably and got hurled in the scrap, the third went OK but by that time I was planning the advert to sell the car as a project.....

So several hours later and much frustration I managed to get all the folds right and the panel sat where it should with only a little persuasion.....I got it welded to the crossmember and then tacked the whole assembly in place.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 23, 2016, 07:01:55
I then set to welding it all in. Once the welds were ground down it was looking pretty good. I had to plug weld the end back onto the chassis rails as I had had to drill this piece off. I have ground the plug welds down and next time I get the spot welder out I'll put some spots were the plug welds are to make it look a bit more proper, I'll then stitch weld on the seams where the original was.

Would be nice to be able to replicate the factory welds where it is stitch welded. I guess they were stick welding at the time which I have never done. I'm putting stitch welds where they were but with a mig welder. My welding is OK but nowhere near as neat as I would like it to be.

I think the end result is starting to look nice though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 25, 2016, 06:32:30
Got a few more bits to add to my stock pile the other day, I have replaced the door handles and boot lock that I was having problems with. I also bit the bullet on a new indicator switch and other bits and pieces. I also got new rocker arm studs to go with the new rocker arms.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 25, 2016, 06:44:28
I have been deliberating a bit on exhausts too. A while back I got a new stainless steel one from Timevalve, and I wasn't really happy with it. I didn't much care for the look of it but by the same token didn't really want a welded, untreated mild steel system either. On Corvettes we use a very nice aluminized steel exhaust and they last well. I generally prefer the mellower sound from a mild steel exhaust anyway.

So I finally gave in and ordered the correct system from MB, on the whole it looks very nice and I think will give more the look I want than the stainless one would once it is fitted and painted. Time will tell when it comes to fit it but it looks like it may well go on easier than the stainless version.

Anyway now I have two exhausts so if anyone in the UK needs a stainless system for an early 230SL let me know....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 25, 2016, 06:46:51
In the interests of comparison here's the two systems side by side.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Peter van Es on February 25, 2016, 20:47:32
Did you get the indicator switch from MB, and, if you won't mind me asking, how much is it these days?

Peter
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on February 26, 2016, 11:10:23
Be aware that your surplus exhaust will only fit LHD cars, just in case a RHD buyer gets excited!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Naj ✝︎ on February 26, 2016, 11:18:55

Did you get the indicator switch from MB, and, if you won't mind me asking, how much is it these days?

Peter

Peter,

The column switch in Scott's picture 001 545 5524 is for a 230/early 250. Current Euro price 455.00

The Switch for the Late 250/280 is 002 545 2924. Current Price Euro 445.00 + Local VAT

UK price is similar but in £Stg !

naj
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Peter van Es on February 26, 2016, 21:44:10
Wow... A €10 saving, Naj... I'll try some Sugru because only a small part of the black plastic of the handle has broken off... Over £445.... Whoa...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 27, 2016, 06:53:07
The switch was £412 list less 10% discount so £370 plus vat. I'm immune to it now....

Made some progress with the front part of the rear crossmember. I had been deliberating over seat belt mounts for a while and have wound up putting a couple in the crossmember, not sure if these will work out OK but I'll try a seat in before it all gets signed off. I have trial fitted a test seatbelt and it all goes in OK, I am just worried about the belt rubbing on the seat and causing problems. I may wind up putting mounts in the rockers as well so I have both options available.

I also need to put a mount somewhere under the rear seat floor for a seat belt for Charlie, the family Spaniel....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 27, 2016, 07:10:12
I got the various batches of zinc back from the plater after 3 months, who has lived up to his expected standards now and got a load of it wrong. I had batches of yellow, silver, and black zinc done, everything that should be silver is yellow, and half of what should be yellow is either silver or black....Of course none of this is their fault even though it was all separated out and labelled.

They've lost some of it too...Obviously.

The black zinc is very nice. Everything that was either raw steel or black phosphate I have had done in black zinc. It has more sheen than black phosphate but will afford greater protection to the component without looking too far from original. One thing I really don't like which I am seeing more and more in restored cars is to wire brush the hell out of something then clearcoat it to make it look like raw steel, I just think it looks crap. I reckon this black zinc is a good compromise.

My original intention was to try and get as close to factory spec as possible but I think that ship has sailed what with the 5 speed conversion, headlight swap, alternator and starter upgrades, colour change and going from MBTex to leather.....I'll still try and get the rest of it pretty close though.

The yellow zinc is a bit wishy washy, the yellow is not as strong on the larger pieces as I would like but CAD plate is next to impossible to get done over here. I'm told this is the best it can be although I may seek a second opinion on this. The bits that are right all look very nice though.

Anyway I now have a battle on my hands with this stuff, I don't feel I should have to pay for it but may have to as they also have a load more of my parts which I would like to get back so all in all not very happy making. I have sent a Corvette front bumper to Stick's plater and am hoping that these guys will come up trumps for us.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 27, 2016, 07:16:20
I had the 5 speed mount plate and studs done as well which I am pleased with, hopefully this will all look like it is meant to be there.

This is the black zinc. I really like this.

Interestingly enough though I bought a new expansion tank cap from MB which is yellow zinc, and the colour looks just as weak as on some of my stuff so it may be that that is just the way it its now. Some of the smaller parts have a very strong colour, it is the larger bits that aren't as good. Another problem I have now is that nothing fits either. For example none of the arms for the accelerator linkage will fit on the main shaft so I guess I'll need to ream them out a little.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 27, 2016, 07:24:54
I got the handbrake lever back from them which I have had rechromed, we painted the bottom half satin black with the end loosely masked so there was a real soft line between the black and the chrome. I also had the ratchet pawl black zinc coated at the same time. I can't reassemble it though as the main pivot bolt which should be silver zinc has come back yellow.

I think it's all going to look awesome when it is done though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: vegimite on February 27, 2016, 09:24:00
Hi Scottcorvette,
I had a lot of my engine parts ceramic coated...........they will stay like that as they are baked in an oven ....unlike the polished alloy which will return to a dirty alloy look  as the clear coating deteriorates.
The fuel lines I had yellow zinc plated as cad plating is not so environmentally friendly and so a lot of electro platers have ceased using this method. All the engine bolts are black.  I had similar problems with my electro plater......seems to be a trait of the trade.
The interior I used German square weave and I two packed the console tray white.......which hi lights the upholstery.   
keep up the hard work.
Vegimite

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 27, 2016, 08:00:31
Been a while since I have had a chance to do anything with the SL. Have been too busy at work and I am training for a couple of cycling events coming up so the Mercedes has had to take a back seat.

I did get a chance to play with it yesterday and finished a couple of small bits around previous repairs. I started on the repair of the floor where the rear axle mounts. It isn't going easy though, the repair piece is needing quite a bit of fiddling to get in, nearly there now though. It is all pre-fitted. I'll take it out Monday and get some paint on the back and in the crossmember and then it can be welded in.

I don't know when that will be though as I have a busy few weeks ahead of me.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 10, 2016, 07:02:23
Been a busy month or two for me but we seem to be getting back on an even keel again so I have managed to find a bit of time for the SL project.

The fall out with my chrome plater left a pretty sour taste in my mouth and really turned me off doing any work to the car also. Had I not been able to get the parts back it would have left me missing so much, in the end I paid up and swallowed the parts he had lost/damaged/messed up. Has left me with a bit of a mess to sort out but at least I have the majority of it back.

Still, onward and upward. I have started having Wednesdays on the project as well as Saturday, and that has been helping to make some big progress. Last time I posted I had just started getting the trailing arm mount in. Next stage was to replace the rearmost part of the seat crossmember which was pretty straightforward. Then the rear floorpan could go in. This took a little bit of persuasion to go in, the fit was not as good as the front pan but it fiddled into place and I spot welded it all in.

As I was using a single sided spot weld I decided to double up the welds on the flange that welds to the rocker, not quite correct I know but it made me feel a bit more confident in the job, and there's only you and me that knows.....

I also welded the accelerator mount bracket in place, I wasn't sure the spot welds would do the trick on this, also the bracket didn't fit the floor ever so well so I drilled the bracket and plug welded it, then ground those flat and made a couple of dummy spot welds. I did the same with the seat mount bracket.

Next was the piece I cut out of the B post to get access to the rockers, that went back in ok, I struggle a bit to make neat looking fillet welds where it joins the rocker but after a couple of goes they are acceptable..
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 10, 2016, 07:13:46
Next was the panel that connects the two floor pans, thought this was going to be easy....

May sound dumb but this was a fairly big thing for me. I had been looking forward to putting this on, it was the very first thing I cut off the car and refitting it meant I was pretty much at the end of the floor repairs, at least on this side anyway.

But it was a pig of course. I thought spot welds would be sufficient but karma had other ideas and they kept pinging. I think I was going to fast and getting too much heat in, also it really took a bit of force to get the panel to meet with the rear floor pan too as it got near the rocker. In the end I drilled out every fourth spot weld and plug welded for a bit of added security, ground those flat and spot welded again. I had visions of panels popping off the car on a hard corner...

I used the same method to attach the front floorpan stringer, I drilled and plug welded every other weld and then spot welded every inch or so. As I am having to use single sided spots on everything I am going at it from both sides, one for looks and one for my own piece of mind.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 10, 2016, 07:22:10
And here we are, the drivers floor is done, I have a small repair and a stitch weld to do on the seat crossmember and that's it I think. I need to seam seal all the panels, I'll squeegee some tigerseal into the gaps/joins and then prime it all.

Just got the other side to do now. On the whole I'm quite pleased with it. The only thing that really bugs me is my weld on the bottom of the b post, and the nut that is on the floorpan that the trailing arm mount bolts too. On the original floor it was a weldnut that was spot welded to the pan. I couldn't do that so mig welded on three of the flats. It looks pretty neat but is very obvious it has been redone.

There's no getting away from the fact that this is a car that is having extensive rust repair and it will never be anything else so it is what it is.

I'm enjoying being back on the old thing though, I find it weirdly therapeutic and it certainly beats working....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 13, 2016, 07:09:06
Didn't get much done on Saturday as I had a few bits to do to the Mustang, I made a new piece for the inner fender to close off the front of the rocker, just need to spot weld round the outer portion next time i get 'The Chief' out...I also drilled two holes on the inner side of the rocker so that after the car is painted I can inject the rocker with some wax to help protect against future corrosion.

I am going to use bilt hamber S50 which comes in a spray can with a very thin lance so there are two 5/8" holes with rubber grommets to block them off. Before I blocked the end off I blew out and vacuumed the rocker clean inside, everything is pretty well painted in there but I think some wax can't hurt, and the bilt hamber stuff dries only slightly waxy so shouldn't get too much muck sticking to it.

So I think that is this side floor officially finished with, got to do the other side now.I won't block the rear of the rocker until I decide what to do with the rear fenders/wheel house area.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 26, 2016, 06:45:30
And so it begins again...

I made a start last weekend on cutting out some of the rotten metal off the RH side. I can't go too far with this at this stage as I want to be able to get the old rocker out and the new one in fairly promptly,and at the moment I don't have the time to do that so I am just getting it as close as I can.

I think this side will be a bit more straight forward now I have the other one under my belt, I am worrying less about how far I need to go to gain access to the rocker panel, and there is less figuring out/head scratching time also.I also have learn't from my mistakes on the other side, for example, I welded a brace to the door brace to support the seat crossmember, but didn't think about drilling out the spot welds that were now under the brace....this time I cut out that small section and welded the brace in.....I ain't no dummy.......
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 26, 2016, 06:52:09
The first picture illustrates nicely what is going on that you can't see, this is inside the main centre crossmember behind the seats where it joins the side chassis rail. The crossmember section on this side is slightly worse on the flanges where it meets the chassis rail so will need those replacing.

I was hoping the trailing arm mount would be in better condition this side as well but it is still pretty pitted inside so I will replace the outer section like I did on the drivers side, I was very reluctant to use that repair panel at first but it actually turned out OK in the end.

I only got a few hours on the Mercedes yesterday so I wire wheeled the repairs on the drivers side and spent a few hours seam sealing the joints so I can get some primer on the repairs. All quite satisfying. Not much will happen for a while now, off to see a couple of stages of the Tour de France this weekend!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 26, 2016, 12:17:38
Some of the seams sealed with TigerSeal, I need to check but I am pretty sure the brushable seam sealer I have has to go over a primed surface so I wanted to really seal all the joints first and then get a coat of primer on. I'll brush seam sealer on later but I need to do some research first. I read somewhere on here that the seam sealer went on after topcoat?

Certainly when I stripped it all off from underneath it seemed that their undercoating acted as a seam sealer also as it looked like it had been sprayed on with a schutz gun and then a brush run across all the seams.

At this stage I just want to get some primer on to stop the new metal going brown.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on June 27, 2016, 12:48:52
The underseal was applied over primer but before topcoat.  The wheelwells etc are then painted after the underseal is applied.  I went a little crazy here trying to get an acceptable application of underseal.  I bought several products and several application guns(Schutz guns).  What I figured out was that the the hardest thing to get right was the sloppiness of application.  Most schutz guns are vacuum pickup guns which don't seem to get enough material on the car.  I tried a few then moved on to a Lord Fusor gun which sprayed a caulking gun tube style seam sealer fairly well but the underseal was too rubbery like a silicone more or less.  Another drawback of the Lord Fusor system was that the sealer essentially cured and was only paintable for a week.
I finally settled on a product from U-Pol called Gravitex which is available in black and white and is tintable as well. My car had very light underseal so I left it white.  I tried using a schutz gun but really had a hard time getting the  texture I wanted.  In order to get enough material on you had to go really slow and the air from the gun would end up blowing the underseal everywhere.  I ended up using a Sata SRS rustproofing gun with a round wand on a tube.  I sprayed it at fairly high pressure and at about a 45 degree angle so the air from the gun would sort of blow the underseal into peaks as you went along.  I cut a paintbrush bristles down to about 3/4"(19mm) and used that to brush the seams. Since  my car was a dark color I used black for the wheel wells so and chips would be less noticeable. 

As a guide motoringinvestments.com has a number of original cars that show the proper application style.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 30, 2016, 06:44:35
I used Gravitex on my Mustang, only problem I had was my gun sprays too fine so I was going to try another gun for this job to get a coarser finish. I have already got the white gravitex in stock as our paint factors had it on special offer....It seems a shame to cover all the hard work under the car with a heavy coat of stonechip, it's the same when we body off a Corvette, the chassis' look so good that it almost seems a shame to put the body back on!

I read somewhere there is a Wurth gun that will spray quite coarse, I guess this is the gun you used?

http://www.lord.com/products-and-solutions/fusor-312-sprayable-seam-sealer-gun

I took quite a few photos of the original undercoating so that I can at least make an attempt at it looking correct. I can imagine it being very difficult to get it looking right though. You can see in these pictures some seams were brushed heavily and some left well alone, I'm pretty paranoid about rust coming back though.

You can see on the attached pictures that there was a lot of brushed out seams by the rear under seat area, but none on the main floor pan itself, and brushed round the rear shock tower but not around the main chassis legs. The other point of note is the different colours under the car, there is grey under the fuel tank and mushroom everywhere else, the floor inside the car was the same colour grey with maroon on the rockers and overspray inside the car. I guess I'll just tell the painters not to mask it inside and see what happens.

We've just had a Corvette body shell delivered to us from a London bodyshop that has painted the windscreen frame bright red the same as the car and painted the whole inside flat black with perfectly masked edges and wotnot and it just looks all wrong, whilst the whole originality thing has gone out the window on mine because of colours, transmission, and lights, I'd still like to keep to the original finishes.

Not sure if I'll hand paint the grille blackout though....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on July 01, 2016, 06:26:27
All your work looks great!

The Lord gun was good but the coatings I used in it were too rubbery.  If you do a lot of seam sealing it would work great for that as it comes with several nozzles the dispense seam sealer in ribbons etc.
The Sata HRS is a pressure pot gun so you get a pretty good volume. I practiced a bunch and remember having to do multiple passes to get it on thick enough. Hit it. Let dry. Hit it again.  Not sure if you have anyone over there who sprays urethane sealer? We have companies that spray truck beds with a catalysed thick coating that might just be the ticket.  Luckily for me I got the HRS gun as part of an old BMW tool we were throwing away. 
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 07, 2016, 04:46:37
That's very kind of you to say.

I got a couple of coats of primer on before I left work for our weekend away at the Tour de France, which was awesome by the way...I had a quick look around it when I got back. On the whole I am quite pleased with the result, now that it is painted there are a few bits I can see that I am not happy with nut nothing that will take too much to sort.

I'll have to clean the paint back on a couple of the spot welds that haven't taken too well, I guess there was a slight gap between the two sheets of metal so I'll need to plug weld them and then fake spot weld over the top, there was also one area that I forgot to stitch, hence the bare patch on the seat crossmember, I saw that just as I was about to prime...

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 07, 2016, 04:52:32
And this is from the other side, all the seams have had sealer fingered into them and the excess cleaned off, both inside and outside, then primed over. I'll use a brushable seam sealer over this I think then prime again when I'm ready to stonechip.

So all in all I'm happy with the way it has turned out. I would like to be getting through it a bit quicker but I always seem to be under pressure at work so fit it in when I can, trouble is my other hobby is cycling and that is very time consuming.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: kampala on July 07, 2016, 14:09:42
Really nice work.

When folks on this forum ask for advice on what it takes to restore a pagoda with a "little" rust (and your car had little), we should point them to your thread. 

Very informative with clear photos and descriptions.  Just wanted you to know that we look forward to your follow-ups and read them with interest.   

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 08, 2016, 06:43:49
That's very kind.

You're right about it only being a little rust, trouble is it is/was a little rust in lots of different areas so it is still an awful lot of work. I could also have gotten away with some localised repairs and/or patching over but I don't like that and it isn't what I want for this car. I dread to think what the bill would be if you were paying by the hour for what has been done to this car so far, and there's still a long way to go.

We have just finished a restoration on a 69 Corvette roadster and the car really is stunning, the owner has been very easy and has just let us get on with the job, never quibbling about money, but there is always the underlying factor that we have to remain commercial to a certain extent, with my own projects really the only limiting factor is my ability so it really is all on me, if it costs more it just has to take longer!

I'll bet there's a lot of cars out there that look good on the surface and don't make the cut once you start getting into it, and I hate that. There's a few firms over here now that are restoring/customising Corvettes and it seems to end at the paint job, it really is garbage.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on July 08, 2016, 08:45:45
Scott, it is indeed unfortunate that our industry is completely unregulated and we have to compete with the charlatans, some of whom have excellent marketing skills and have been quite successful in convincing the public that they arte experts when they are not.
It's a real thorn in my side and I'm sure it's the same for you.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on July 08, 2016, 08:56:29
Quote from: Scottcorvette
.../... whilst the whole originality thing has gone out the window on mine because of colours, transmission, and lights, I'd still like to keep to the original finishes. Not sure if I'll hand paint the grille blackout though....
Of course you should :-)
I'll post some pictures of an original car, how the grille area looked from factory, with black paint runs and all...

I admire the thorough work you are doing on the body of the W113, and nice indeed that you document and post on this Forum.
Do you have an original car to look at, otherwise it must be hard to reproduce the little details.
/Hans S
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on July 08, 2016, 16:20:03
Take a look at Pagoda Notes, Volume 4 No 1, there are several photos of the black out area from an original owner 250 SL.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 09, 2016, 05:59:02
Jonny I don't think I have that one. I have seen photos of that area. I don't know if I'll go to that extreme or not. I have never been that much of a fan of the reproduced paint daubs on suspension and wotnot on Corvettes but I will probably go that route on the Mercedes, it just seems a bit more acceptable to me for some reason. I think there is always the risk of getting a bit carried away with them.

Hans I don't have any other cars to look at, I took lots of photos during the strip down and I photograph each part of the body before I start cutting anything out. I also keep all the bits as they come out as memory joggers. Other than that it is just what I see on the internet, the majority of which have come from this site. For example the information about seat belts has been very useful in planning where to mount mine, also Sticks superb set of photos of an original stripped bodyshell has been invaluable, so thanks for that one!

It would have been a much more difficult journey up to now without this forum that's for sure.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on July 09, 2016, 17:32:49
Quote from: Scottcorvette
.../... I have seen photos of that area.../..
Ok, so here is another one...
/Hans S
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on July 10, 2016, 01:43:25
Scott, all you need to do is go to the technical manual. As a full member you have access, and all the copies of Pagoda Notes are available to download.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: swood1 on August 30, 2016, 14:50:23
And this is from the other side, all the seams have had sealer fingered into them and the excess cleaned off, both inside and outside, then primed over. I'll use a brushable seam sealer over this I think then prime again when I'm ready to stonechip.

So all in all I'm happy with the way it has turned out. I would like to be getting through it a bit quicker but I always seem to be under pressure at work so fit it in when I can, trouble is my other hobby is cycling and that is very time consuming.

Hi Scott,

Can I ask what primer do you recommend for using when spraying the car?   Will you be using the same primer for both underneath and the main panels?  With some panels being aluminium is there a more prefered primer for these?  Also, will you be using a 2k top coat?


Regards

Steven

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 31, 2016, 19:41:41
Hi

I am using Cromax P7, which I believe is part of Dupont.

http://www.cromax.com/gb/en_GB/products/commercial-vehicle-system/primer-surfacers/P7W-P7-P7B.print.pdf

I took advice from my painter and he recommended this as an epoxy primer that could be coated again after a period of time with minimal prep, it also has good anti corrosion properties so I'm told. I did a fair bit of asking around about the best primer, epoxy vs etch, that kind of thing, and this generally came out quite well. It is a 2K paint, I am not sure if it is what they will use on the topsides or not, I imagine it may well be.

The car will get painted with a 2k paint, it will be solvent based as opposed to water based, if it is still available when it comes time to paint that is....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: swood1 on September 01, 2016, 07:34:50
Hi Scott,

Thanks for this, I guess the best approach is to cover a panel after stripping it and/or welding it.  I need to remember this when I get into the nuts and bolts of my own project.  As it's 2k dont you need all the respirator kit? 

I have experience of cellulose painting only.

Steve
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 03, 2016, 06:26:02
It's very different to cellulose, much harder to get a good finish than with cellulose and is far more toxic so you will definitely need an air fed mask, you'll want full overalls on too. I painted the first lot in shirt sleeves and I could feel it sticking to my arms, horrible horrible stuff.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 12, 2016, 07:41:19
I got back on to the Mercedes on Saturday and cut the rest of the right hand rocker out. You can see the extent of the corrosion on the back of the rocker and on the jacking point, not too bad but bad enough to warrant the replacement.

I had had enough of drilling out spot welds by the end of the day.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 12, 2016, 07:44:02
Once the remains of the old rocker was out the way I gave the inside of the upper portion of the rocker that is staying a clean with the wire wheel and a coat of kurust to kill off anything that is left. I'll get a coat of primer and topcoat on the inside of that piece today in between jobs and then I'm planning on bunking off work tomorrow and getting the new rocker in...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 13, 2016, 07:12:24
I took the opportunity to drill the wax access holes in the rocker yesterday so it would be easier to clean the inside of the hole before it was fitted...then gave everything a coat of paint, the flanges were masked up and given a coat of weld through primer.

There's a couple of spot welds that I went too far with my drill so will need to fill those up before I do anything else and can then start offering the new rocker up. I doubt I'll get chance to do that today so will be a job for tomorrow.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 14, 2016, 20:23:45
Had a lousy day on the Mercedes today, to the point where I abandoned and decided to sell the car....I had set aside today to fit the RH rocker and get it welded in, but try as I might I can't get it to fit right, if I clamp one flange then the other is an inch away and if I clamp them both then the part of the sill that should be vertical leans in so nothing else will fit it

We measured all over the new rocker and it seems to have a slightly different profile to the one we fitted on the other side, and that one went in with no problem. I must admit I am always sceptical when ever I hear anyone blame the part, I hear it all the time and it is usually the guy doing the job that is the problem. I'll have another go in a couple of days when things have calmed down, ronni and spent hours on it today though and we are convinced it is the wrong shape.

Anyway I'm thoroughly cheesed off with it, wasted a day and no further on. I spoke with Shaun at Mercedes and he will have one in a couple of days so I may get that and see if it is any better than the one I have. If not then I guess I need to put my big boy pants on and make this one fit.

Sometimes I hate old cars.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on September 19, 2016, 18:59:35
Hi Scott.  Hope like hell you persevere.  I  went through the same frustration on a least couple of occasions.  Strangely i lost it on really small things like stripped bolts.  Looking back now it was a build up over many months of toil solving many frustrating niggly issues compounded by dealing with the daily frustrations of my regular job.  You are doing an absolutely sublime job on this old girl.  She is very very lucky to have found herself in the hands of someone with your talent.  Dont give up or it will haunt you.  What doesnt kill you will make you stronger.  Cant wait to see more progress. 
 
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 20, 2016, 07:31:27
Thanks Andy. I will press on, at the very least I have too much money invested in this car anyway to be able to bail out now without taking a big hit, and that is something I can't afford to do. I am getting frustrated though. I have had this car almost 3 years and am nowhere near seeing any kind of completion.

I have only ever bailed on two cars, one was an Austin A40 sports when I was 15 and the other was a 1937 Hudson Terraplane. I was hoping to have this one in paint this year but just don't seem to get the time. I have ordered another sill from MB to see if it is better. I think it may well be, the welded tabs that hold the jacking points on mine look stretched out as though they have had to be spread out to make contact with the sill, whereas on the photo of the rocker from Shaun they look at right angles to the sill, as do the ones on the other side. Anyway I guess we'll see....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 22, 2016, 19:37:06
The new rocker arrived from MB yesterday and Ronni and I had a few hours on it this afternoon. The fit is much better and a much better start point so that is heartening. I was starting to feel very depressed about the whole thing....

You can see the difference in fit of the two in these pictures, they are both clamped in the same position, I had already fettled the original rocker a bit before I took these pictures, the first time I clamped it up the gap below the door was over an inch!

Anyway it didn't take much to get the new one to slot in nicely so I then stayed on and drilled some holes for plug welds where I won't be able to get 'The Chief' into position to do a pinch type spot weld. I'll grind them down after and use the single sided spot to do some dummy welds.

I am stripping the paint off a Corvette at the moment and I was planning to strip the black off the new rocker, what does everyone think? Good idea or not? I'm not sure what the black is, whether it is better to key it up and prime/topcoat over it or take it off and prime directly on to bare steel.

Anyway I feel a lot happier about things, back to where I should have been a week and another £400 ago...I'm putting this one down to experience, what I should have done was buy two new ones from MB so at least I would have had some comeback but I was too cheap and went the ebay route, now it's wound up costing me slightly more, learn from my experience boys and girls!

Having looked at the two side by side I think the original replacement rocker could be made to fit by squeezing the two parts together and re welding the jacking points in, I am too stressed/busy/lazy/not skilled enough to deal with it but if anyone wants it they can have it. It would be good for repair sections at the very least.

Andy was right, this is making me stronger.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 05, 2016, 19:21:36
Managed to get a day on the Mercedes today and carried on with the right hand rocker. It all went pretty well, bit of jiggling around to get it all looking good. I had taken plenty of measurements before I cut the old one out and everything seemed to be checking out nicely.

I offered up the outer sill trim just to make sure everything lined up with that and it was all a-ok. In the second picture it looks out but when it is on the car it all looks perfect, the rearmost jack hole seemed to be shaped to suit the jacking point and the it sits nicely in the bottom of it.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 05, 2016, 19:23:02
And this is it pretty much welded in, all the spot welds are done and just need the rough edges taking off, I have some more plug welds to finish and then they will need to be ground down and dummy spot welds made.

So all in all I'm very pleased with the way it has all gone, especially with all the grief from the last attempt, and nice to see another major hurdle crossed.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on October 13, 2016, 03:27:31
Hi Scott,

I had the same experience fitting the side rails, it appears that you can never get all the places to line up at the same time.  However, I just stayed at it and finally got to what I wanted. I did us a variety of clamps and straps to get it lined up.  It did help that I had the body on a rotisserie, I could not imagine doing it with out.

I have a 1971 280SL that needed nearly every floor panel replaced and both side rails.  I now have both side rails installed and the floor is complete on the drivers side.  Some of my problems was that previous bad work on the floor made it impossible to know what is was supposed to be.  I understand your frustration as I have quit several times but I keep going back.  You may want to know that I am now over 2 years into this project.  Here are a couple of photos.

Howard
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on October 13, 2016, 08:38:19
Keep at it chaps
Inspirational work for others and you'll really enjoy the end product
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 15, 2016, 07:39:07
Howard it seems you and I are about level pegging with our projects, I've had mine 3 years next month but the first year was spasmodic on the car as I had other projects on the go, I've been busy with work this year so have had less time on the Mercedes.

The right side is not going as easy as the left for some reason....

James, the ride in your lovely car is still a great inspiration, I fear my completion date gets further and further away!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on October 17, 2016, 02:43:48
Dear Scott,

It is nice to talk to someone in about the same stage.  I did the right side rail first and learned a lot to things that better prepared me for the left side. In my car the left side was a little better in that the bottom half of the left rear fender had been replaced at some time prior and the bottom of the left rear fender panel between the wheel well and the door was in pretty good shape with little rust.  Also the the lower rear of the left front fender was in better shape to meet with the side rail.  I did purchase the lower fender patch panel and used it replace the bottom 8 inches of the left fender but the rest of that area was mostly intact.

On the right side there was much rust in both of these locations with a lot of metal so rusted that it was really hard to reconstruct exactly how it was when it came from the factory.  With what I learned from installation of the right side rail and rail cover, I found it a little easier to get the rail installed on the left side.  I then finished all the floor panels for the left side.  I tried several techniques to remove metal that was held with spot welds.  I have found that using an angle grinder with a flap grinder wheel worked best for me.  It takes more time but I end up with less damage to the material that I need to attach the new panels to.

I have the lower fender patch panel for the Right front fender yet to install.  That is complicated because I have to create the small panel that supports the lower part of the front fender just in front of the door where the patch panel goes. 

I wish that they made a similar patch panel for the right rear fender but all I found was the full rear fender or the lower half of the rear fender, both rather pricey  I have decided that I will have to make the lower rear fender Patch.  That plus a couple other pieces that I need to manufacture meant that I just "had" to purchase a Shrinker and a Stretcher.  I will let you know how it comes out. That is my next task.

I have attached  a 3 photos of where I am with the problems on the right side and one of the finished panels on the left side.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 17, 2016, 06:19:18
The part I am fighting with now is the part of the chassis rail that meets up with the rocker at the rear, the repair piece doesn't seem to fit as well on this side as the other side, maybe I have cut it wrong, also the rear crossmember doesn't seem to want to go back the same, all my measurements check out around my door aperture for height and width, and I didn't disturb the upper part of the rocker so am pretty confident that all is as it should be there, but....

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and knowing what I know now I would not have bought this car.  I think I'm just at the 'wish I'd never started' phase, I seem to go through that with all these projects, even the ones I'm getting paid for. I keep telling myself once the welding is done things will get better.

Bloody old cars.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on October 17, 2016, 06:41:17
Lol.  Seems your into the teenage daughter phase.  Give it a few years and you will be proud as hell.  I love your work.  Keep it up.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on October 17, 2016, 12:25:31
Scott,

I meant to tell you one trick that worked.  I found at some point on the rails where I did not have big enough clamps and Vice-Grips could not help, I had to resort to cargo straps with ratchet tighteners like you would use to hold cargo down on a trailer.  With 2 or 3 straps at various angles I could get the rail to do the right thing.  Then the rocker panel that screws on was a type of truth indicator that everything was ok.

Good Luck

Howard
71 280SL 4 speed
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 24, 2016, 19:40:29
Thanks Fellas. Howard I had already tried the ratchet strap trick on first rocker that I tried to fit, the second one went on much easier. I've been struggling with the rear chassis rail repair section that goes from there under the rear seat area but not getting very far.

For my sanity I decided to take a break from that and on Saturday cut out the RH toe board where the metal was quite pitted, I cut the replacement to shape and tacked it in. I finished welding it in after work tonight. It looks alright, not as flawless as I would have liked. In my head I always imagine that these repairs are going to be absolutely invisible, sadly my imagination seems to exceed my ability.

Still it will all be OK, I will have to give the repair a light skim of filler and a coat of primer. I will need to re-bend the part that the floor sits against but I'll do that once the floor is laid in and then make a former to shape it against, at least that's the plan. Once again the spot welder has been a great asset and is certainly making the job easier. I got some new spot weld chisels the other day too and they are also a vast improvement over the ones I was using:

http://www.gunson.co.uk/product/77095

They were on sale too!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on October 25, 2016, 02:40:38
Dear Scott,

I think you are taking about the part that K & K labels as Patch Panel, Rear Rail.  I found in doing the first one that I have removed too much of the old panel. which meant that I had removed some of the inner fender that going into that rear seat area.  That really made it a big job to restore and I really did not need to remove that section, I only had rust in the lower part of that patch panel.  for the second one, I only removed the lower half of the patch area where the rust was and it made it a lot easier.  Sometimes less is more.  I still have not gotten back to replacing the inner fender well on the first side, one of these days..

Hang in there, I am sure there are still rough things ahead.  I just found additional rust in the area of the Reinforcement Strut, Top of the front wheelhouse on both sides. I could not see it but there was rust thru on the top of each strut.  That certainly will be fun but I think that it can be done without removing the front fenders if I replace only the front 80 to 85% of each strut.

I am still working the lower 4 inches of the rear fender behind the right door, in front of the rear wheel well. I getting there but it sure is slow.

Good Luck

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 29, 2016, 19:32:16
Normal service has been resumed and once again Saturday is play day. I had a few other bits to do at work so didn't get a full day in, but had a nice time none the less.

I'm carrying on with the passenger side front floor pan, I used a piece of box section to  straighten up the part of the new toe board that meets the floor, once I'd got that dealt with I measured the front part of the seat cross member and then cut that out. I'd got a repair piece from K&K but it is 1/2" deeper than the original, also the radius on the fold is a lot sharper than the original one, had mine been completely knackered then I'd have gone with it but it is only the lower section that is rusted so I'm using only what I need.

So everything is trimmed and ready to go in. 'The Chief' took care of spot weld duties, I gave all the flanges a couple of coats of weld thru primer so we are good to go. I ran out of time to weld the cross member and floor in otherwise it would have been a late one at work and I just didn't feel like it today, I had a Corona with my name on it and the Mexican GP qualifying to watch.....

I'll weld it in next week. On the plus side I'm falling back in love with this old girl, she's gotta treat me right though!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: tom.hanson on November 02, 2016, 22:03:09
Hi Scott,

I haven't heard from you for a long time. Did you finish the project?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 03, 2016, 21:12:53
Hi Tom

I haven't finished the project, I'm a long way off that. Been busy with work though and haven't gotten myself organised to stockpile any more parts. I wanted to get the sheet metal a bit more sorted before I went any further with parts.

You'll hear from me again!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 14, 2016, 08:31:28
The RH floor is now in, along with the new piece of seat crossmember. It was all pretty straightforward, the only area that took a bit of persuasion was the are in the front corner where the toe board meets the floor, it was a mile off to start with.

On this side I decided to plug weld the floor all the way round, the drivers side gave me a bit of grief with the spot welder so figured this was a more sure fire way to get it in, Ion the corner I would make a weld and then dolly the toe board to meet the floor pan, it all came out pretty nicely in the end.

I have ground the welds down and will need to make dummy spot welds all the way round next time 'The Chief' is in action.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 14, 2016, 08:45:50
I then started on the RH chassis rail, this has been giving me a lot of grief, I had spent some time messing around with it and trying to make it do what I wanted, in the end I decided to just attack the thing and see what happened.

First job was to offer it all up and then mark out where I wanted the seat belt fixing to go and get the reinforcement welded in, that suckers going nowhere....

The main problem that I had is that the repair panel isn't deep enough or wide enough so I couldn't get all sides to meet up. I had the bright idea that if I made a slit along it's length I'd be able to open it up a little to meet the existing chassis rail, I'd already cut the piece off that meets the inner fender, easy right?

So I plug welded the bottom section in, after checking that my new seat belt mount allowed the reel to fit OK. For the life of me I couldn't get the upper section to move so I had to make another cut vertically to allow me to bend the top section up and then added a couple of little fillets to fill the newly appeared gap between the two repair panels, my perfect plan not so perfect after all.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on November 14, 2016, 18:28:08
Scott,

I agree that this is one of the harder places to get things to line up.  On the first side that I did I cut out the inner fender well a little more that you have done, about up to where your black line is.  That only set the stage for a lot of additional work later.  on the second side I cut the old  rail patch panel only from the bottom and did not cut into the area of the back seat.  Then I trimmed the new rail patch panel to fit, that worked better and makes for a lot less work when you finish the area.

For the nut to attach the seat beat retractor, I welded the nut to a 1inch by 2 inch plate, installed it inside, and then plug welded this plate from the other side after I had completed the rail and rail patch installation.  It might have been easier to do it during the installation but I forgot.

I just finished getting the wheel well area welded in on the first side and I will send photos soon.

Howard
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 14, 2016, 21:16:09
Yes it was a long way off, you can see here the original piece I cut out of the top is still a long way off fitting the wheel well and is a good 3/8" away from the chassis rail.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 14, 2016, 21:21:57
Its getting there though, this corner is the part on the other side that gave me the most aggro and it went easier than this side has done so far. Most of the chassis rail is in, I just need to clean up the welds, sort the top piece out and then spot weld it all...

I also welded the seat belt retainer into the rear crossmember, it's nice to check these little jobs off!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 14, 2016, 21:29:11
I've had the Mercedes 3 years now, it was at the November 2013 local classic car auction that I succumbed.....Seems I make all my emotional purchases in November

I went with a friend of mine who was selling a Triumph Vitesse there, I had been missing the bright green 911 that I had a while back and wound up buying this, it is a 1976 911S and is generally very nice, has a few running issues that need dealing with though, and the worst thing is that the heat exchangers have been removed and tube headers fitted in their place so it is very cold to drive right now. It's good fun though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on November 15, 2016, 00:17:47
On the first side that I opened up the inner fender into the area behind the seats, it was very difficult to get the flange of the rail patch panel to line up.  To make it happen I had to segment the flange and then reform each of the tabs meet the inner fender.  I could not get good photos of that side due to light problems.

I have included photos from the second side where cut out the rusted area of the old rail patch, the bottom and the lower side, but I did not have to open the inner fender and where the patch panel goes into the area area behind the seats.  Hopefully in these 3 photos you can see where I trimmed the new patch panel to fit just inside of the old patch panel which does the same thing and is many times easier.  in the 3rd photo you maybe can see the nut plate for the seal belt retractor.

Howard

Howard
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 20, 2016, 09:15:44
I carried on with the chassis rail yesterday. You can see in the first picture how far out this repair section was. I had to make up little fillets to bridge the gap but of course this has spoilt the natural curve of the panel. I tried to dolly it into as smooth a curve as I could.

The other problem is that all the pulling and bashing around there has changed the radius of the panel somewhat so there is a noticeable difference there. I suppose in hindsight it may have been better to have cut the top section out in it's entirety and make a new piece out of one strip of steel. It is particularly noticeable in the 3rd and fourth picture.

I will have another look at it on Monday and if I think I can do better I may cut the top of the panel out and have another go, trouble is I'm not sure how to make that piece with the curve and a fold in it.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 20, 2016, 09:22:32
The underside of the same panel is OK, once again the join isn't as flawless as I would like but with a light skim will look fine, problem there was I had too big a gap to make up with weld, what I should have done is let in a thin strip of metal to make up the gap.

Once all the welding and grinding was done I got to work on the spot welds, some are dummy some are functional.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 20, 2016, 09:34:02
I carried on with spot welding the floor pan in too, these are all dummy welds, there for show only.

I guess doing this under the car is probably a bit pointless as it will all get undercoated at the end anyway, but it makes me feel better about it all.

I will start seam sealing these areas now so I can get a coat of primer on the parts done so far. It is starting to get a lot colder and more damp here now, very British, and some of the bare metal was starting to go a little bit brown, I wire wheeled it all clean but I need to get some protection on it pronto.

I'll look at the chassis rail again once I've primed it and then decide if it needs another go, once that is all sorted I'll make a start on the rear axle/floor piece.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Cees Klumper on November 20, 2016, 14:54:23
Nice going, thanks for posting the updates.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 24, 2016, 08:28:07
Thanks Cees, it feels like slow progress though..

I've been working on the trailing arm floor section the last couple of evenings and am making some headway. It has all gone relatively straightforward, the new panel is not particularly good but it is better than I can make so will have to do. I am using as little of it as possible so as not to have to redo the trailing arm mount, and because the shape is not brilliant.

I got each end to line up ok, I had to sharpen up all the fold lines and redo the fold that makes the drain but in the end it started to look not too bad.

Once it was welded at each end I then trimmed the sides, I put a piece of thin steel between that and the rocker so the cutting disc didn't mark the rocker, then welded the bottom section.

After that I heated up the centre part of the join and gently tapped it down to meet, there is a slight dip there which I will fill with a bit of weld, and after I'm done I will dummy spot weld the outside edge. I also need to heat up and just flatten the area a little that the captive nut goes on to and then drill for that, I think I need to extend slightly the drain channel too.

After it was done I realised I'd left the outer part of it too long so it looked different to the other side, I very carefully cut 3/8" off the outside edge which looks better, I need to sharpen up my game though, I was so busy concentrating on all of this I didn't think to check and make sure it was the same as the other side.

Slow old business this...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on November 24, 2016, 17:30:43
I am in the middle of the trailing arm floor section also.  I have completed the driver's side and have the passenger side nearly prepared for the new plate.  I replaced the entire panel but I am learning that that is not always the best way, slow learner. 

I agree that the reproduction parts do not fit very well but with the help of a hydraulic press and a few clamps and vice-grips I have been able to get them to fit.  The main problem with this parts from K & K seems to be that it was warped during manufacturing and there was no effort to straighten it out at the factory.  I also agree that each part is larger than the original and needs to be trimmed to fit properly.  I guess I wonder like you, if the Mercedes part would fit better or if we would have the same problems.

Here are a few photos.

Howard
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 24, 2016, 18:45:07
It's funny that we are doing exactly the same jobs at the same time! Well maybe a few hours apart...

Are you doing just bodywork or is going to be the full works? I wonder who will get finished first!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on November 24, 2016, 20:16:33
I just planning to do the metal repair work that I know about and then send it to the media blaster to see about other problem areas.  I do not plan to do the finish body work.  I plan to have the body shop do a couple coats of expoy primer, seal the seams, apply body schulz and then finish the inside and underneath of the body.  Then I plan to bring it back home to reassemble and get it running.  Finally it will go back to the body shop for prepping of the hardtop and the aluminum parts and then the final body work and finish paint of everything.  Then back home for windshield and trim.  Finally it will go out again for the interior.

I think that you will beat me to the finish line but at age 75 I cannot take too many more years getting this done.

Howard
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: PIP1947 on November 26, 2016, 12:39:13
Hi Scott
For many years I had an April 1965 230SL (RHD) 4 speed manual in burgundy red. Being an English car, it had a bit of rust in the floors, but nothing too serious My mechanic couldn't work out if the car had 160,000 or 260,000 miles on it, as it blew a little smoke under hard acceleration. Some time between your car and April 1965, MB changed the location of the spare wheel, moving it to a flat position on the right side of the boot. They also increased the size of the inner front guards, to accomodate slightly wider wheels and tyres. The best feature of the 2.3 litre car is the way it revs. The 4 bearing motor is a screamer, making the 230SL great fun to drive hard. The burgundy red looks wonderful when it is clean, but shows every speck of dust. I like your idea of mid blue, especially if it is metallic. I also recommend that you purchase the complete 230SL parts manual from the classic centre. It contains drawings of every single part you will need. I really enjoy seeing your photos me videos, so please keep posting.

Regards

Pip1947

1968 280SL auto (RHD) Tunis Beige Metallic
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on November 30, 2016, 20:57:54
Thanks Pip1947, I really am struggling to decide on a colour at the moment.

I didn't get a full day on the Mercedes on Saturday so progress was limited. I got the rest of the trailing arm floor pan welded in and made the spot welds. I made a start on getting the original piece of the rear seat crossmember ready to go back in too, I had to add around 3/16" to it's edge to meet up with the crossmember. The sides off this piece were quite pitted inside so I cut those off and started to make templates for the new bits.

I did get to seam sealing around the new panels in the front of the car, I'll do the rest once the welding is done at the rear. I also redid a few of the spot welds I wasn't happy with, so it was a day of fettling rather than any major milestones, still, it moves ever forward.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 01, 2016, 08:01:33
Thanks to cold weather and nights drawing in I've got quite a bit done in the evenings. This week I've been mainly making repair pieces and cutting out floors...

I was curious about the RH rear floor pan, it always looked a bit of a mess on the inside rear corner nest to the transmission tunnel, and when I drilled that panel off last night all was revealed, seems there is a whole bunch of everything overlapping in that corner and also the original pan overlapped the flange of the rear seat crossmember.

I'll see how the new one fits but I think I may trim the floor to sit against it so it looks a bit neater, or maybe I'll just hammer it in over the top of everything else, in the interests of originality of course!

There was a hole in the floor pan which looks original, just below the seat mount and right nest to the exhaust hanger, anyone know what that is for?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 01, 2016, 08:26:10
I also cut out the back of the seat crossmember and trimmed the repair piece ready to go in then cut the drain hole in it. I have to weld in the seat belt mount on the rear crossmember repair piece and then weld the cuts I made to bend the flanges. Once that is all done I can give all the mating surfaces a coat of weld thru primer and whack em in.

The plan is to get all of this done and then I can paint inside all the box sections with the correct mushroom colour before I close them all up for good.

Nice that I'm getting towards the end of this part of the restoration though. I should think you'll all be glad to pictures of something other than floorpans....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: neelyrc on December 01, 2016, 12:23:20
Scott, the pics are great as is your overall project.  Keep them coming!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on December 03, 2016, 15:18:58
Scott,
Is the hole you are trying to figure out a sheet metal screw hole?  I am thinking it might be the rearmost screw hole for the aluminum exhaust heat shield.  There isn't much else on the starboard side.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on December 03, 2016, 15:31:34
Scott,

I agree with Shvegel, that hole is the aft hole for mounting the heat shield.  I put my heat shield in storage and I was looking for it as I am about ready to start on that side to put in the floor.  It is around here somewhere.

Howard
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 03, 2016, 19:14:28
You guys are awesome, thanks!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on December 04, 2016, 02:52:19
Scott,
Someone told me once that in the UK the right side of the car was the right side when looking at it from the front where in the US the right side is the right when seated in the driver's seat.  Is this true?  I have avoided using right and left when dealing with anyone in the UK for that reason and I just wondered if maybe he was wrong?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 04, 2016, 08:39:08
I've always used left and right as if I'm sat in the car looking forwards, but sometimes over here people do use it as if you are looking at the front of the car. I have no idea why anyone would do that as any time anything is referred to as left or right hand drive it is always from the viewpoint of the driver. It can get a bit confusing so I always spell it out very clearly.

If it is someone I don't know then I always tell them 'as if you are sat in the car looking forwards' when I specify left or right side. I am somewhat Americanised in my ways and terminology though as I am constantly dealing with the USA because of my job.

Over here the majority of garages use nearside for left and offside for right, left being the nearest side to the kerb, I've never gotten on with that and always use left or right, it's the way I was brought up see!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on December 04, 2016, 11:53:29
When I taught for BMW I always told our students if they couldn't find the leak the customer complained about in the left front tire check the "other left" front tire.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on December 04, 2016, 19:20:47
Scott,

In the US, I find that I have always used Driver's side and Passenger's side for things like that but for you and I and left hand drive and right hand drive, that would raise another problem, so maybe I need to revisit that way of thinking.

I am with you that Left and right always is based on looking forward in the car.

Howard

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: star63 on December 04, 2016, 19:55:39
Hmm...how about the crankshaft, then - is it turning clockwise or counterclockwise?  ::) (and when looking from which direction)  :)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Rolf-Dieter ✝︎ on December 05, 2016, 00:37:18
I would guess it be CCW looking from the front toward the driver.

No matter if it be a LH or RH drive ~grin~

Dieter
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: waqas on December 05, 2016, 00:41:01
Wouldn't that be anticlockwise?  ;)

Personally, I think we should bring back Dexter/Sinister. Problem is, which one's the shield-bearer? Pagoda driver or mechanic?  ;D
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Rolf-Dieter ✝︎ on December 05, 2016, 01:04:59
As you know Waqas, CCW means "Counterclockwise" or "Carrying a Concealed Weapon"

We always used CW or CCW in Engineering and Large Rotating Equipment maintenance work and describing it in "View of or Looking in Direction of" was also important to avoid confusion. Mind you we were never allowed to carry a Concealed Weapon :) no one in an Atomic Power Plant especially. Mind you I once installed a Gas Turbine in Iran and the plant manager put his revolver on the desk during a scheduling meeting (after the meeting I made my way to the airport, never ever to return). That's another story :) I guess they got her running eventually, only not with my help.

Dieter
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 08, 2016, 07:01:57
It's always looking at the crank pulley, at least that's how I've always done it, I have never concealed a weapon though.

Not that much happened to the Mercedes this week, I had to fit a new exhaust system to the Porsche so that got in the way of any serious Pagoding. I did get the seat crossmember finished up. I need Ronni to help me modify the drain channel in my trailing arm floor piece and then I can paint inside all the box sections and finish welding the rear crossmember back together. Once that is done I'll be on with the rear floor.

I also filled in the old seat belt holes, so each week passes and a little more is accomplished. I am taking this Saturday off to go Christmas shopping so whether I'll get all this done before we break up for the holidays is uncertain. I'd really like to so I can get primer on everything, it would also be nice to think that once I start again in the new year I can work on something different.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 18, 2016, 06:58:44
Got the rear seat crossmember finished up yesterday. This side definitely went easier than the other side. On that one I had made the repair pieces for the sides and then welded them to the top section before installing it into the car, this made it easier to weld and then clean up after but installing it was a real bear.

It has been a bit of a wait to get this in because I wanted to get some paint inside the box section so I waited until I had a few areas to paint before I mixed it up.

On this side I made the repair sections, welded the original top piece back in and then let the side sections in, getting the welding torch in was more difficult, and I find welding on the side more difficult anyway so I won't be winning any welding awards for it but it cleaned up OK and actually looks better in real life than in the pictures, I've got a very unkind camera...

I'm pleased this is on and done now, I really feel like I'm getting near the end of a very long journey!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 20, 2016, 06:57:27
There's been a massive change of tack now. I have a lot of chrome plating to get done for work and rather than entrust it to a carrier I'm going to deliver it to the platers myself early in January, in which case I want to make the trip as worthwhile as possible so I'll take all the Mercedes stuff at the same time. The stuff that Waytts polishing in Thetford did wrong or to a poor standard....

With that in mind the massive task of stripping the soft top frame was waiting for me, I expected this to be a world of hurt and I was planning to deal with it when the car was at the paint shop, but i started on the strip down last night.

I imagine when this thing was new the convertible top frame was a real pleasure to work on, now of course it is a collection of rusted screws and broken captive nuts. I had a bit of a struggle to get the rear bow off as a few of the captives were turning, I managed to get most out by holding a screwdriver between the bow and it's mounting and keeping pressure against the captive nut but I had to drill one out.

The problem here is that all the captive nuts are inside the rear bow and all need repair, or at least the cages tweaking, trouble si I can't seem to get into them without cutting the rear bow open, maybe there is an easier way but I can't see it yet.

Also one of the cable retainers has been broken in the past and that was held in by a screw so I need to deal with that too.

More of a problem though is that after a bit of research on this forum it seems I am missing all the rear bow cables and cylinder. I haven't been able to turn up a good picture of the cylinder arrangement yet so if anyone has one I wouldn't mind a look. Even better if anyone has the cylinders and cables available that would help greatly. I'm a bit concerned that these may be very difficult to obtain.

Last but not least all the pivots that hold the frame together appear to have been staked over at the factory so getting those out is obviously going to be a bugger....

On the plus side, other than poor cosmetics and the missing/broken parts, the frame itself is in very good condition. It snaps shut nicely over the side windows with no sag, and the header bow appears to be in good shape, as does the wood rear bow, so it's not all doom and gloom.....or is it!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on December 20, 2016, 18:28:40
I just bought cylinders/plungers. One I got from MB and the other from Niemuller.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on December 20, 2016, 19:13:50
Quote from: Scottcorvette
.../.... all the pivots that hold the frame together appear to have been staked over at the factory.../...
The special bolts in the soft top frame are secured from factory with a pointed punch.
To disassemble the frame, drill or Dremel the ends of the special screws out, to enable unscrewing them.
Best to replace the screws with new ones; in some cases the screws you removed may be re-usable. I suggest you secure the new screws with lowest grade Loctite.
See also this previous thread:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21308.msg151624#msg151624 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21308.msg151624#msg151624)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on December 20, 2016, 19:21:38
Quote from: Scottcorvette
.../...I haven't been able to turn up a good picture of the cylinder arrangement yet.../...
If this is what you refer to, here is a picture of the snap lock för the rear bow (photo courtesy of Alfred E)
The wires left and right serve to avoid that the soft top fabric gets caught in mechanism (and fabric thereby marred)
See also this previous thread:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21178.msg150804#msg150804 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21178.msg150804#msg150804)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 21, 2016, 08:13:13
Thanks Stick, I saw they were available from Niemoller, I've emailed Shaun at MB to see what he can supply.

Hans that has saved me another question, I wasn't sure what I was missing off the boltin the first picture but I can see the spring attached to it, or is that some sort of tensioner wire?

I appreciate your input chaps, it really is a great help.

I managed to get most of the screws out of one side but I 'm going to have to drill the rest out, I'm reluctant to drill out the rivets but I think I might have to. I spoke to the plater last night to see if I could leave the rivets in and he said not really, so unless I can find a source for these I'll have to get some made. Ronnis dad restores spitfire airplanes and is a bit good with a rivet gun so he may be able to help me there.

This is where I left it last night, and this dear friends, is the definition of chaos. I got a bit soft top blind and know I was working on the right hand side, but I got the front and rear of the frame separated and then, wait, did I just turn this bit over or not??? Time to stop and go home!

It is doubtful I'll be able to get the rear bow repaired in time to go to the platers unless I can talk my lovely wife into letting me go to work over the Christmas holidays....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on December 21, 2016, 20:52:05
Ok so I'm pretty committed now!

I drilled out the brass rivets that were holding the frame together, after a closer look at the rivet holding the frame rail that sits above the side window it seems there is no need to remove that one, the frame folds back on itself so there should be no blow in the chrome, and the rivet is chromed on that one so can only assume that it was assembled before chroming at the factory.

The others drilled out OK, I also drilled out the rest of the stuck fasteners. So that really is one dismantled soft top frame, I dread to think what the chrome cost is going to be.

I've got a plan of attack for the rear bow, and I've a few little repairs to do on various parts but hopefully I'll be able to get to that soon. For now I'm going to concentrate on getting some seam sealer and primer on the resat of the bare metal bits round the body before we break for the holidays.

I ordered the plungers and wires etc from Mercedes, along with an inner fender and boot floor, and a few other odds and ends

These pagodas sure are an expensive car to rebuild.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 15, 2017, 08:43:24
The welcome back to Pagoda restoration in the new year wasn't particularly smooth.  I dropped all my chrome plate off to be done in the new year with the exception of the soft top rear bow as the captive nuts that hold it to the main frame needed repair.

I made an attempt at this yesterday so I can get it shipped to them asap. My plan was to grind out the end of the bow in picture 1, drill out the spot welds holding the captives, fish them out, repair them and then weld them back in. It was all going well up until the 3rd captive which I drilled out and it wouldn't budge, turns out there is a tube in the frame that the soft top wire feeds in to. I didn't want the captive to move so I welded the hole back up and had a think. I tried to get all manner of things in the frame to squeeze the captive cage closed again so the nut wouldn't turn but to no avail.

I figured I could cut out a small section of the outer frame, squeeze the captive cage and then weld it back in. Of course in doing this I cut through the tube....I tried the wire in and out of the tube with a section missing just in case it might work but it kept jamming up so I didn't think I had any other option but to cut out the section that had the pipe brazed to it and replace the pipe in it's entirety. The full extent of my nightmare can be seen in pictures 2 and 3.

Fortunately I had some steel tube the right size and I cut the slash in the end that fits against the underside of the bow and gave it a gentle curve. I had originally planned to weld the pipe to the outer skin and then fit it back in but I think it would have been impossible to have gotten the position absolutely right. I got the pipe into position and drilled a hole in the outer skin and welded the pipe through that. My only concern is that it is going to be strong enough. I have done this in 3 spots and I'll give it a fairly thorough testing before I send it to the platers.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 15, 2017, 08:57:36
Anyway after a whole bunch of grief and sulking I got it all back together and cleaned the welds up. Fortunately it is a pretty rough/dull chromed surface, and this section will be covered by the fabric of the soft top, but I'm pretty annoyed with myself for not researching this a bit more before diving in and causing more problems. Had I known the bit of tube was there I would have cut the piece out of the other side of the frame with the captive still attached to it, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing....

After a fair chunk of the day dealing with this I am back where I started, all the captives are out and repaired and ready to weld back in. Fortunately the third one in the other side was OK and didn't need any repair. There was also an extra captive nut that dropped out the rear bow, no idea where that came from...

The only other issue that I have, and it may or may not be a problem, but I'd appreciate it if someone could check their car and let me know. I can't push the rod in as far on the side I have repaired as the other side. There is 4 5/8" of rod sticking out one side and only 4" on the other. I don't know how much rod sticks out of the rear bow when it is folded up. Maybe one of you guys could take a look for me.

Here's to a trouble free 2017!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on January 15, 2017, 14:29:38
The only saving grace of having my car under restoration for over 10 years now is that I bought 90 percent of the parts 10 years ago.  Euro headlights were $450 each then and $1400 each now.  Sheet metal had doubled at least and fuel pumps have tripled.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 15, 2017, 15:34:15
I could have bought a half decent driver for what I have in this car now!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on January 16, 2017, 06:58:15
But it wouldn't be your car.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 28, 2017, 17:45:59
That's true Andy, I had originally planned to just give this car a quick tidy up, use it for a bit and then sell it on, hopefully for a small profit. But, the old thing got under my skin and you guys know the rest.

I got the soft top frame repairs finished last Saturday so the rest of the frame could go off to be chromed. First up was to weld the captive nut cages back in, then make new end plates and weld those in and give it all a clean up. I'm quite happy with the results and they function as they should so all is well.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 28, 2017, 17:58:16
Once the rear bow was finished I turned my attention to the vertical rails that the cables attach to, one of these had a broken stud and the cable had been attached to the rail with a self tapper. The rail is double skinned with I guess the head of the stud between the two skins, I had been freaking out about how to do this a little bit and couldn't come up with a plan so figured I may as well wing it. I drilled the old stud out and cut a thread in the rail. I then cut a metric bolt down and drilled a hole in it for the cable to pass through.

Once that was done I wound the stud half way into the rail and filled it with weld from the other side and ground it smooth. It seems to hold up pretty well and as long as I don't have the jolly green giant fit the soft top I think it will be fine.

Thought I'd show you my almost clinical working conditions, eat your heart out McLaren......
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 28, 2017, 18:06:10
And today normal service was resumed and I was back on with the floorpans...

I've finally got the last floor in so I no longer have a Flintstone car. it all went pretty smoothly after a bit of jiggling round. On the other side I had had some trouble using just the spot welder, so on this side I plug welded it in then ground the welds smooth and went around it with the spot welder just for cosmetics sake, it went a lot easier this way round although did take longer.

I also made a start on fitting the centre floor section, this has taken a bit of persuasion to get into place but is pulling in nicely using sheet metal screws. I will use the spot welder to hold it all in place then remove the screws one at a time and plug weld those holes. I was hoping to have gotten this all in today but as usual it all takes longer than one would expect. I'm pretty happy with the way it is all coming though, I think next week should see the floors finished.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 07, 2017, 06:44:09
Getting the floor centre section in took longer than expected, I seem to recall that was the case on the other side. It was all I managed to do last Saturday as I had to go into town in the afternoon. it was one of those days where everything seemed to be just a bit harder work than it should have been.

I used the spot welder in between each of the sheet metal screws and then plug welded those holes up and then used the spot welder to make dummy welds, its all pretty laborious. I also stitch welded the couple of areas where the floors meet in the curved sections as they were before. I need to seam seal those areas which I'll maybe do tonight and at the weekend I'll get the main floor reinforcement in and the seat runner and trailing arm mounts.

I was hoping to get the floor completed last weekend but it was not to be.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 28, 2017, 05:44:38
Been a while since I have posted anything to this thread....We have been extremely busy at work and so I haven't had time to do anything to the Mercedes.
The last thing I did was to install the seat runner brackets, nut for the trailing arm retainer bolt, and the front floor pan reinforcement, that was all done around March this year, since then I haven't been able to do anything.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 28, 2017, 05:50:16
....Until now that is!

Last Saturday was a gentle reintroduction to Pagoding. I had a customer calling in in the morning but was able to have the afternoon and carry on with the last couple of bits in the floor.

The last thing to do in the main floorpan was the area underneath the rear seat area. The replacement pieces I bought are completely the wrong shape so I am having to make the repair section. I had already made the template but getting all the curves and angles in the right place was proving too much for my limited abilities so I decided to make the repair section in 2 pieces. Something I was trying to avoid, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on June 28, 2017, 05:53:02
Whilst the weld through primer was drying on that I decided to start removing the boot floor. Nothing like a bit of destruction to prepare oneself for the weekend...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 08, 2017, 18:51:07
I collected the chrome from Colonnade last weekend, along with a lot of Corvette parts. They have done a much nicer job than JD Wyatts had ever done for us so it is all very positive.

I am very pleased with the convertible top frame. I had asked for it to be left in a dull finish to match the original finish and I think they have got it just about perfect. Im also very pleased that my repairs are not visible after the chrome plate.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 08, 2017, 19:08:35
I was also very pleased that they had managed to rechrome the ends of my wiper arms successfully. I had to get a lot of the parts redone that Wyatts had screwed up. It is frustrating to have to pay twice to get the parts done but all I can really do is suck it up, I just don't have the energy to take Waytts to court and I want this car to be as nice as I can make it so it is what it is.

I had them plate the window regulators which were looking scruffy, They did them in silver zinc first but apparently they didn't look good so they redid them in nickel. Not original I know but they were looking pretty scruffy and I couldn't think of a satisfactory alternative  for  them.

I am very happy with everything Colonnade has dozen so thanks to Colin for the tip. It has rekindled my enthusiasm for the project a little.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 08, 2017, 19:20:25
They also redid the nuts and bolts that Wyatts got wrong so I have spent the evenings this week going through my lists and trying to get the fasteners back into some semblance of order. Not an easy task. but one I enjoy none the less. Theres a lot of bolts in these cars.....

The downside is that the yellow zinc is a lot more like cad plate than the stuff Wyatts did, which is what I wanted at the outset but it does mean that I will have to get all the engine bay components done again so that they all match.....

Its a good job I like the old thing eh!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 08, 2017, 19:36:44
I carried on with the rear seat floor area today. I had started on this a couple of weeks back but was struggling to get the shape right on the replacement part. I had got the bottom part where I wanted it but the top section didn't want to play ball. Rather than remake the entire section I used the lower piece and made a new piece for the top. Not ideal but I figured it would be ok.

I was feeling a bit lazy so had a route through my box of scrap steel to see if there was anything suitable to make this piece from rather than cutting it out of a new piece of sheet. There was a piece left over from a new panel from Ronni's Karmann Ghia that had the perfect curve so I made use of that!

The second picture is of the old and new parts together, and the third is the new piece in position ready to weld in. The gap between the repair and the car is more than I would have liked so I put a piece of aluminium behind to act as a heat sink and try and prevent it blowing through so easily.

I faffed around a bit here but couldn't delay it any longer....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on July 08, 2017, 19:46:21
It was pretty awkward to weld in but it all went ok. I would have liked it to have looked a bit neater but there you go. It has done the job and is a good strong repair.

Whats most important though is that I had an enjoyable day, and thats almost an end to floorpans....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on July 09, 2017, 19:21:50
Dear Scott,

It had been a while since I followed your project.  We seem to do some things at about the same time.

I find that I have had to deal with the same thorny problem in the floor behind the seats.  I agree that these little pieces are a real challenge but they can be done.  I have competed my work on the passenger side (LHD) and I have 2 photos of that in primer.  On the Drivers Side(LHD), I have completed the welding but I still have a bunch of grinding to do.  2 photos of work in progress on that side.  Like you said a little difficult to weld and hard to be proud of the job as you go along.  However after a little work with the grinders it looks ok and will do the job.  If I had to pay for my time, it would make sense to buy the replacement sheetmetal part for that section for less than $100 per side but that would take part of the fun out of it. 

I have been the last few months on the front wheelhouses and the reinforcement struts.  I will be glad to get it done up there and back to the finish the left floor..

Howard
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: PeterW113 on July 15, 2017, 06:05:35
I can only marvel at the skill and resources you guys have,  I am six years into my Elan +2 light recommissioning and only just getting there.

Keep up the excellent reports and updates, it helps keep me going.

Peter
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 05, 2017, 17:31:38
You're very kind Peter. Hard to believe it is almost 4 years ago that I got this car!

I spent the last couple of Saturdays going over old ground which was a bit frustrating. When I put the LH floor pan in I had intended to replace the LH toe board but once I got the floor out it didn't seem bad enough to warrant replacement, and the replacement part looked like not a particularly good part so I opted to stick with original. Obviously that was a mistake as I had seen an orange spot showing through the primer.....

Anyway I started to grind it out to have a closer look. Fortunately it was only a small spot. I had visions of having to remove that front floorpan again. Instead I cut that piece out and cut the matching piece off the new toe board.

Such a little thing but it took me all day to get it to fit.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 05, 2017, 17:40:43
And today I have been finalising the floor repairs. There were a couple of spot welds that I wasn't happy with so I cleaned those out and plug welded them and then made the dummy spots again. I then finished up seam sealing the repairs so far and will spot prime the repairs early next week. That my friends will see the floorpans finished....

Hurrah!

Just got boot floor, inner wings, rear wings, one inner front wing, and nose panel to do, then the trial fitting can start. Im glad this part of it is about over though, its been a real struggle.

Ive also been going through all my nuts and bolts and trying to get them back into some sort of order. I am pretty much there. Theres a few that I need to replace that have either gotten lost by my original platers or aren't good enough to go again. I am going to have to have some of it redone so the colour matches the second batch of yellow zinc.....Will it ever end????
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: kampala on August 06, 2017, 01:14:41
Scott,

Your attention to detail is very interesting to follow.  Amazing work.   

Here's a "loaded" question for you - do you go to these lengths of extreme detail on the corvettes you restore?

Some of us really enjoy your updates and look forward to the next episodes.   

Best,

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 07, 2017, 07:43:55
Well that is a loaded question....Yes and no!

I think we have pretty high standards but I also have to keep the majority of work we do to a reasonably commercial level. I think we are perceived as being a bit more expensive than some of the other Corvette places out there but Ive seen what they do and it really is shocking. We had a car in from one of my competitors that had had a transmission swap and they used a couple of bits of desk leg as spacers, they had used a Dremel to make the holes and they look appalling, on another car they made a brake line too long and put an 'S' shaped bend in it to take the length away - nice!

I would be horrified if someone had done that sort of thing at my place.

Heres a couple of pictures of some of our recent jobs, en engine and chassis overhaul in a 66 roadster and a carpet set and  instrument cluster refurb in a 64, just the main gauges though, not the clock or radio, and the dash top has a crack in it, theres your compromise...

My standard rule is that if the car we are working on went straight to another garage I wouldn't want anybody to be able to pick fault with what we had done. I have gone deeper into this one than normal though, partly because I want to make this car as nice as I possibly can and I don't have to justify the bill to anyone, and partly because it needed it. I get a kick out of it too.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on August 07, 2017, 10:52:10
What's with the HEI distributor?  That didn't come out until 75?  Just kidding.   Really a great system until a plug wire went bad and the spark would find a new way home.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: neelyrc on August 07, 2017, 12:16:57
My standard rule is that if the car we are working on went straight to another garage I wouldn't want anybody to be able to pick fault with what we had done.
Scott-
Great policy and very nice work.  You will be in business for a very long time with this combination.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Howard Long on August 07, 2017, 14:44:44
Great work Scott,  A little different than the sheet metal problems that we have been dealing with on our Pagodas.

As an old hot rodder, I have fantasies of a nice Chevy engine in my Pagoda but my classic side says "No".  I realize all the suspension changes that would be required and no matter how good a job I did on the mod, it would probably decrease the total value of the Pagoda at the market place.

I was running Dragsters with SEMA Hall of Fame member, Nile Cornelison, from 1958 up to about 1963 and he held the top speed record in the quarter mile of about 212 mph for a time in 63or 64, only lasted a few weeks.

Howard
280SL 4 Speed
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: kampala on August 08, 2017, 04:02:29
scott,

I really should have realized how "loaded" the question was.  My apologies.   

Thanks for the detailed response. Very nice work.  I have always loved the '63-'67 vettes, but don't have the space, spare cash nor time, so will just keep admiring them.

Best,
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 11, 2017, 18:48:43
No apology necessary, its a fair question. To be honest I hadn't really given it a lot of thought up until now but since you asked Ive been looking at what we do throughout the week and I'm pretty impressed!!!

Shvegel, that engine in the 66 had been hopped up a bit with a set of Edelbrock aluminium heads and inlet, performer cam and a Holley carb, the standard points distributor doesn't handle that combination very well and the GM HEI distributor is about one of the finest out there for our application. The one in that car is a cheap knockoff of an HEI but it has a tach drive modification which we need for the early cars. In that one we upgraded the internals with a Pertronix kit. That car also got a Tremec 5 speed and was an absolute blast to drive.

Howard as a hot rodder you might like this, my Dad and I started this project before he died, and my wife Ronni and I carried on with it after. We did everything from scratch and it was a tough build but the car was stunning at the end, not mine, was built for a customer, one of the very few no holds barred ones!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 11, 2017, 19:05:08
But back to the business in hand. I do believe the floor/rocker/sill area is complete.....Maybe something will rear its head over the next few months/years but Im signing this one off for the moment. Tomorrow I start on the trunk floor, I think I have a plan.....

It is very nice to bring this part of the rebuild to a close though, don't know about you, but I'm sick of floorpans.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 13, 2017, 06:13:45
I have spent a bit of time pondering the best way to deal with the rust in the boot area. As is typical of this car the rust is only marginal, but enough to be a problem. Of course being an early car with the vertical tyre well, a replacement panel is not available. I did get a later replacement floor from Mercedes but there are quite a few differences between the early and late versions.

I briefly decreed that life was too short to worry about this and thought about replacing the lot with the later floor and have a horizontal spare, but that was only a fleeting thought. I then thought about trying to make the later floor look like an early one but that is also easier said than done. However both of those options are still on the table if plan A doesn't work out....

As you can see from these pictures my problems are solely in the ribbed channels. I had a Pontiac GTO that had a little bit of rust in the boot floor and used an epoxy product on that with some success, but that was more pitted than rusted so it suited the application better.

Anyway I decided a more time consuming and laborious method was required here.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 13, 2017, 06:25:22
So after a bit of head scratching we decided the best plan was to leave in as much of the existing floor as possible and use just enough of the new panel to fix the rust. Fortunately there are only a few minor differences between the old na new where the rust is, and I can deal with all but one of them so to all but the absolute expert eye it should be indistinguishable from the real thing, in theory of course.

The plan is to join the L shaped repair piece along the top of the front crossmember just ahead of the original spot welds but using the crossmember flange to hide the join from underneath, the sound deadener will also hide the join along its length for the most part.

I spent most of yesterday drilling out spot welds and cleaning up what was left. Two of the flanges on the spare tire carrier were badly pitted so I have cut those off and will make new ones. There is a bit of pitting in the bottom of the tire well that will need repair but I will cross that bridge when it comes, I may use the epoxy on that as it is only very minor. I am thinking about trying my hand at lead loading and that may work well there, although I suspect modern body filler is actually as good now.

I got home last night wondering if I am tackling this in the right way but I can't think of another option that will give me the result I want. I guess it looks a bit clunky but it seems a shame to cut out a perfectly good and original floor and then replace it with something that isn't right.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 13, 2017, 06:36:08
I had planned on fitting the smaller RH section before I tackled the centre section but realised that would trap the tail light inner panel which I am probably going to replace so I figured Id leave that out. It did need some modifying though.

The Mercedes replacement piece is for the later car also that has the spare tyre mounting point, I had already cut these off, but the replacement only had two little tabs for the trunk side board instead of three, so I cut one off the original floor and pressed 'The Chief' into action to spot weld it to the panel, what a pleasure it is to clamp and weld in one movement!

I also marked and drilled the three holes for the exhaust heat shield. On my original these have a pressed counterbore for the screws to sit in. I don't have a die for this so I drilled a countersink into a piece of wood and pressed a countersunk bolt through and into it. This worked pretty well but it has made the hole slightly larger than I would have liked although not large enough to be a problem.

Ronni brought me a sandwich yesterday and asked me what I was doing, she then said 'oh Ive got a countersink die.......' Fortunately it was too small anyway but it proves that you should always tell your wife what you're up to....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 21, 2017, 06:11:16
I don't want to jinx anything but so far the trunk floor repair seems to be going remarkably well. The first job was to try and make the new floor look like the old one. There were several differences, the two round dimples with the square holes needed to go. I thought I would need to cut the entire piece out and weld a disc in but I was able to dolly them flat and just weld in a small square to fill the hole. There was also an additional hole in the drain channel that needed filling in.

In the main drain channel there was an additional pressed out dimple with a hole in it that isn't there on my original. I thought I was going to leave this and just live with it but figured I may as well try and get it out. I cut of a section of nylon bar the same sort of diameter as the channel and started to tap it out, then welded and oval into the bottom to fill up the hole. It has come out pretty well and I think once in and given a final tidy will be invisible.

There were a couple of slots on the outside edge I had to fill in too, once they were done I set about marking out the shape of the replacement piece.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on August 21, 2017, 06:23:07
I made a cardboard template of the area in front of the spare wheel well and then transferred this on to the floor panel. As I suspected the cut line went straight across two of the reinforcement channels in the floor so they had to be cut out and a piece welded in. Once this was all done it was starting to look pretty good.

The last photo is the panel laid in place. It is a genuine Mercedes panel and the fit is superb, it pretty much dropped straight in. I was worried that the profiles where I want to join the old and new parts may be slightly different but as far as I can tell they are absolutely identical.

Could things be starting to go well for me on this car.......

I'm a bit concerned about the amount of welding there is to get this piece in but it is what it is, I'll take it slow. I am pretty hell bent on keeping this looking as factory as I can and until someone reproduces the trunk floor for an early 230SL I can't think of any way around it. Can you imagine how long it would take to make an accurate replacement, even if you had the skills and the machinery to do it.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 03, 2017, 19:21:12
I spent most of last Saturday cleaning and prepping the new panel to go in the trunk. I had a few guys in at work last Saturday so didn't get a full day at it. I sold my Mustang too which was unexpected. Ive had the car 5 years now and don't really use it so have been thinking about it for a while and the opportunity arose so what the hell...

This Saturday I started welding the trunk floor in, it has all gone pretty well so far but I ran out of gas so had to ditch half way through. I carried on tidying the welds and am quite pleased with how it is all going. I had already spot welded the brackets onto the underside of the floor before its final fit and am quite pleased with the way it is looking.

I finally got single sided spot welds figured out, I'd got some replacement electrodes for some of the pincer ends and they had a rounded end, I ground the single sided electrodes to a rounded end and got a better ground and the single sided spot welds worked perfectly. There were maybe half a dozen that I am going to have to plug weld and do again but I think that is because I had a bad earth, so that made the job go a bit easier and looks a lot more correct.

Would have been better if I could have gotten a complete replacement floor but I think it is going according to plan so far and is going to look pretty neat once it is all in.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on September 03, 2017, 20:58:28
Funny
Was going to call you about the Mustang. Wife has suddenly taken quite a fancy for one and yours (Ronni's) was stunning. Am sure the 230 will be even better

How's the Fiat coming?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 04, 2017, 07:10:38
Ive got the Fiat advertised at the moment.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1972-Fiat-130-Coupe-Stunning-Original-Car-/142479946214?hash=item212c7771e6:g:a70AAOSwredZlKR3

The Mustang hasn't gone yet so as soon as it does it will ease my storage issues and the Fiat can come home, it is currently at work. Trouble is Im already thinking about a Mustang replacement.....

Its a sickness I tell you!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 07, 2017, 18:39:53
Excitement levels went up to 11 today as two batches of Mercedes parts arrived, first was one of the rear fenders , inner wing, and rear panel from Mercedes in Poole, along with a couple of rubber bushes and the clips for the door felts. The other side rear wing is on back order here and may be for some time so rather than hold up the project I am getting the other one from Tom at the classic centre, I was able to get the missing soft top plunger from him last month so he once again comes to the rescue...

I have been having trouble finding the correct conical washers for some of the fasteners and managed to get these from Mercedes also, at great expense....They are in are steel so will need to get them plated also. The new panels look very nice so I am pleased about that. I am not looking forward to changing the rear wings but I am sure we will prevail.

Second was a batch of miscellaneous bits and pieces from SLS, I haven't got that much from there but their service seems very good. I have been trying to get as much as possible from Mercedes to keep the car as genuine as I can and only getting the bits I can't get from them from other suppliers. I took Sticks advice from another post though and got aftermarket front coils....

Along with tail light housings, handbrake cables, soft top frame fasteners and lots of other odds and ends.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 08, 2017, 06:32:48
The other breaking news is that I have finally decided on a colour scheme.....Its only taken 3 years and 10 months and after all the back and forth I have decided to put it back to its original colours of 573G dark red and 114 natural interior and natural convertible top. Wheels and hardtop will match the body colour. Mine also had whitewall tyres originally so it is most likely that I will go that route again.

The only departure from stock is that I still think I am going to go with leather rather than MBTex. I got some samples some time ago and the MBTex has a very coarse grain which I don't like. There were two leather samples, one was 1068 Roser tan, and the other 249 bamboo. I am given to understand that the 1068 is the closest to the original 114 Natural colour, any thoughts? It has a finer grain than the bamboo which I think I prefer.

The MBTex sample I was sent is 704 bamboo which is quite a coarse grain. I think I read here somewhere that the early MBTex had a finer grain than the later? I don't know if and when I come to sell the car converting to leather would have any impact on the cars value or not but I think it might make the cockpit a nicer place to be. I am still going with the euro headlights and 5 speed conversion but they are both easily reversed.

so what do you think gang? Leather or vinyl???
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: hkollan on September 08, 2017, 09:00:45
Hi Scott,

Good decision to go with the original colors. In my opinion it's a
great combo and looks stunning.
 During full restorations I've changed from Tex to leather when the Tex was worn out. Never regretted it. To get the best result it is important with leather to skive it when doing the dash pieces etc.

Love your work and reports.

Cheers,

Hans
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: neelyrc on September 08, 2017, 12:20:59
Hi Scott, congrats on your selections. Great scheme! I think the darker body colours are more attractve and keeping to original is a plus for me.  I am also partial to leather but I have no experience with recent purchase and can't comment on which is closest to original.  I prefer the finer grain.

On the whitewalls I recommend the narrow stripe as in your posted pics as they are closest to the Phoenix originals supplied. The contrast with the dark body makes a striking look! 

I look forward to your progress reports and congratulate you on your quality work.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 10, 2017, 06:01:02
Thanks both. Ralph I think that dark olive colour of yours is really lovely and was one of the colours on my short list.

I think if I go for whitewalls I would most likely get a set of the Phoenix repros by Coker as that is what the car had originally:

https://www.cokertire.com/media/catalog/product/p/h/phoenix-185r14_2.png

Failing that a set of the correct Michelins MXV-P, these probably would be my preference but I think Id like to keep it on whitewall tyres, I think though if the ride and handling would be significantly better on the Michelins then I would forgo the whitewalls..

One of the deciding factors on colour was that I have seen a few cars lately on BAT or auction sites that have appealed, only fantasy shopping of course, but have then read that they have been repainted a different colour than original and it has really put me off them, I don't know why as it is something that never use to really bother me but now it does.

I kind of feel the same about the interior but I think the leather will look and feel so much nicer than the vinyl.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 10, 2017, 06:20:04
I carried on with the boot floor yesterday, it all went reasonably well and is almost finished. I have a couple of spot welds to do and I have to weld the side of the floor to the LH wheel well and weld the tabs back onto the spare wheel well but then it is done. It has taken a while to do though and much longer than I expected.

As I suspected though the long weld down the side was a bore, I took it very slow and just used little tacks all the way along. When I had the two pieces clamped together there was a natural dip in the metal so I used a piece of tube and a strip of aluminium to hold the panel flat whilst I welded it, seemed to work pretty well.

Even though I took it slow there was still a bit of a doowop along its length, I managed to dolly most of it out but have had to use a skim of filler to tidy it up after. One of the reasons I made the join in that dip was so that the join would be hidden thick underseal and the gas tank, and by the sound deadener strips glued on the trunk floor. I'd still like it not to be visible though!

On the whole Im pretty happy with the way it is going and am very pleased that I still have an original looking trunk floor.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: star63 on September 10, 2017, 10:23:04
It has taken a while to do though and much longer than I expected.

This frase I have used quite often...  ::);D ;D


Excellent work and very interesting to follow!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: neelyrc on September 10, 2017, 15:20:02
I think if I go for whitewalls I would most likely get a set of the Phoenix repros by Coker as that is what the car had originally:

Yes, the Cokers are about as close as you can get to the original white walls.  As my car is not for show, I went with the Maxxis whitewalls in 195 x 75 which are much easier on the pocketbook. 

I compared the dimensions with my original Firestone Phoenix spare here:

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15847.msg184433#msg184433

With only a couple of hundred miles on them so far, I am well pleased.  In the next few days, to and from PUB (1300 miles), they will get a  good workout and I will have a lot better feel for them.


Your boot space is looking great!  Looking forward to your future reports.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 18, 2017, 19:20:06
Ive been reading about the Phoenix whitewalls and the reviews seem to be pretty mixed so I think I may go for the Michelins after all, still a long way off that though so Im not going to worry about it too much at this stage....

Busy day Saturday. My guy collected the Mustang. It's a bit strange watching another guy drive your car away, made a bit more stressful due to the fact it had been pouring down all day and the car has never seen the rain during my ownership, it is also painted white underneath which doesn't help....

But, I didn't use it and the few times I did I never really got the buzz that I get when I drive the Corvette so it is the right thing at the right time as far as Im concerned, I think...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 18, 2017, 19:40:42
But on to more important matters....

I've finally got the boot floor finished and I think it has turned out pretty well. I spent Saturday finishing up a few spot welds and making the flanges for the spare wheel well. I also carried on filling and fairing the join and then seam sealing all the new metal.

I had planned on priming the floor tonight but I had forgotten to make the two weld blobs on the bottom of the trunk floor near the shock towers so I did that tonight instead and redid the seam sealer in that area, thats the last picture.

I'll prime it all tomorrow night. So thats been a hell of a job, can you believe thats 4 days work there!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 19, 2017, 17:24:58
I went in early this morning and got a coat of primer on before everyone else turned up otherwise I would have had to hang around tonight waiting for it to dry so I could get the second coat on. That 2K paint really is the most obnoxious stuff!

I'm really pleased with the way it has turned out. There is a little bit of remedial work needed in a couple of areas that the primer has highlighted. The new spotwelds look a lot more pronounced than the originals, I think if I carefully finger a tiny amount of body filler in the weld I can lose some of its definition and try and make them look a bit less defined like the originals do. Had I replaced the whole panel it wouldn't have been an issue.

I am not happy with the spot welds to the left of the wiring channel and in front of the spare tire well so will plug weld those and redo the spots. I didn't like the look of them right from the off but thought I'd wait and see how they looked once they were painted, I was hoping they would look ok but they really don't. There are also a couple of spot welds that have not gone right and have fractured around the edge, I'll plug weld these and redo the spots on them also.

On the whole though I think it looks really good. The bits I'm not happy with will be easy to resolve and once they are done I think it will look A1
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 19, 2017, 17:29:47
In other news the left rear fender arrived from Mercedes USA so we are ready to rock. I have a couple more problem areas to deal with and then we can make a start on the rear end bodywork.

Thats one well travelled wing!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 23, 2017, 18:51:35
More adventuring today. There were a couple of small pinholes in the LH rear chassis leg. I had planned on replacing the whole section but the replacement part from K&K had a much sharper radius than the original part so trying to join it would have caused problems. It also looked like a pig to do and the section that needed replacing was also only a couple of inches long so it seemed a bit of overkill. There were a couple of dents further back so I figured my best bet was to replace a 12" section of the flat and deal with all of the problems in one go.

Once I cut the bad piece out I gave it a wire brush inside and brushed some Kurust in there to try and keep any corrosion inside the box section at bay, these buggers are always rusting eh!

Anyway it all went Pretty smoothly and looks nice, 'The Chief' made short work of the spot welds and its another job ticked off.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 23, 2017, 19:00:33
I also spotted a hidden problem that I was surprised I hadn't noticed before. A part toward the rear of the transmission tunnel had been cut and then hammered out the way. I checked that it wasn't a factory adjustment using Stickandruddermans excellent body pictures, thanks Stickandrudderman!

It took a little while using heat to get it cherry red and then tapping it back into shape and welding. It all looks alright in the end though.

All in all a productive day!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 07, 2017, 07:12:36
I didn't get a full day Pagoding last Saturday as a friend came over and we went out for lunch instead. I have pretty much finished with floors now so I did a bit of housekeeping elsewhere. Every time I roll the car over I could hear a whole bunch of rattling as whatever is inside the crossmembers falls from one side of the car to the other...

I have tried shoving an airline into every hole I can already and gotten the bulk of it out but there were a couple of areas where access was poor so I figured I had to cut an access hole to get in there. I cut four holes in total and blew and vacuumed it all out with the car in several positions, the second photo shows all the muck that came out, mostly sand but with a bit of rust shale in there too, there was a lot in there eh!

The box sections all seemed in good shape inside from what I could see so no further action was deemed necessary. I welded the discs I had cut out back in and hey presto, you'd never know...All the noise has gone and once more I can rest easy.

I am going to leave the small hole in the trunk side member so I can squirt some wax in there once the car is painted.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 07, 2017, 07:14:50
And heres one of it upside down!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 09, 2017, 07:08:33
Things didn't go that smoothly for me last Saturday. I had to tackle the lower front inner fender. I guess the battery had leaked in the past and corroded just the area underneath it. I had already tried to let a patch in before but it really went badly so I gave up on that idea and got a complete inner fender for the repair. I didn't fancy trying to replace the whole panel and it seemed over the top for the amount of rust there was. I am also quite keen to retain as many of the original spot welds as possible in the engine bay area, particularly where the fenders join to the inner wing.

Even though I was using a genuine Mercedes panel there are several differences between the new inner fender and what I have in the car so I figured I'd keep the repair small and just use what I need. What could possibly go wrong?

Once I had measured how much I'd need I cut the piece off and set to dollying the flat part into a round shape again to meet up with the original on the car, that went quite well and it all looked pretty close. There was also an extra hole and dimple in the new part that needed knocking out and filling in. Once that was done I then sandblasted the new piece and cleaned it up ready to go in. I was quite pleased with the way it was all looking, I should have quit while I was ahead.

It took forever to cut out the original piece and trim the new part to fit, I had originally planned to replace the whole front corner but was concerned that I wouldn't be able to get access to the front part of the panel to weld or clean it up after, also the front part was in perfect condition so I made the join on the radiator support. I also had to replace more of the panel than I had originally planned as there was a bit of pitting further up the panel and I figured it would make welding the new piece in difficult if the metal was thinner there. I had hoped to keep the repair underneath the battery tray so it wouldn't have been obvious there had been a repair there.

I guess by that time I had just run out of talent as the welding really didn't go well.I kept blowing through so turned the welder down a bit, it was all a bit of a struggle and didn't look very nice, to be honest I'd kind of had enough by then so I should have called it a day but I was keen to get as much done as I could, besides that couple of weeks back Ronni said if I got home too early on a Saturday I could help her with the housework, she might have been joking but I just can't take that risk.

Anyway it is what it is, I would have liked it to look a bit neater. I haven't finished cleaning it up yet and I still have to spot weld the flange to the chassis rail so it may look a bit better by the time that is all done. I really had had enough by then so I called it a day, the highs and lows of car restoration eh!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 10, 2017, 20:10:45
More excitement! My Getrag arrived back from Allgears yesterday and I think it looks awesome.  I wanted this to be about as close to a new Getrag as I can get so I had them get the casing bead blasted while it was stripped and the fasteners plated. I have to confess I don't know exactly what was done as part of the rebuild, They had a free hand to do whatever was necessary so I would assume new bearings, synchros etc.

Theres still a few bits to do for the 5 speed conversion, I have the shifter rods and bell housing to modify. I'd also like to have a trial fit of it all before the body goes to the painter. Would like to see if I can modify an original transmission underpin to fit with the 5 speed.

Looks nice eh fellas!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 16, 2017, 05:25:04
I carried on with the inner fender job on Saturday and got the spot welds done on the underside. I also made the replacement battery tray support bracket and got that spot welded into place, I was pleased that the spot welder I bought came with several sets of electrodes and could reach the bracket so it could be clamped and welded in one go.

Im quite pleased with the bracket, it took a while to press the dimple in it where the nut goes, so what sounds like a fairly simple task took most of the day, glad Im not paying for my time here....

There was another area on the inner fender underneath the clutch reservoir that had a little bit of rust in it so I cut that piece out and have used my donor inner wing for a repair section. It is pretty much ready to go in but I ran out of day so I'll save that for next week. I think once this is done and I redo a couple of the spot welds in the trunk that I am about there with all the underneath work and can let the car down of the rotisserie and start on the rear wings and tail light panel.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 16, 2017, 06:27:25
I assembled the dash vents this weekend. It was a bit fiddly to start with but I got the hang of it and they went together relatively quickly, not without problems though. The first set of flaps I had chromed didn't come out that well, the chrome is not the best quality. The first platers broke one of the surrounds too so I already had a second set, I had these rechromed and they look nicer but the platers ground the end pivots flat so that when they are in the fully open position there is a chance that the flap could slide out of the adjuster bar and flop around.

I didn't want to take that chance so I wound up using the original flaps which don't look as good but function better. They look great when they are open but not so good closed. I see they are available as a repro item now so I may get a set of those and sell mine, I may just leave mine open all the time.... It sucks though that Ive had to buy a second set of vents, paid for two lots of chroming and I still don't have vents that Im happy with.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on October 22, 2017, 01:45:40
Did not remember where the thread was on the ratchet jack
Here is one I saw on Ebay US
322823897894
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 22, 2017, 08:10:47
Thanks JohnnyB I got one off eBay this morning for $55
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 22, 2017, 08:34:55
I think I'm about done with floors and inner wings now. I finished the repair to the front inner fender yesterday, I also filled in a couple of holes that had been drilled in the right inner fender for an aftermarket cruise control kit, and redid a few of the spot welds in the boot floor.



Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 22, 2017, 08:48:57
I had a bit of timer left over yesterday so I had a look at the wiper motor. I have some more parts to send to the platers so I figured Id get the wiper motor casing redone.

when I got the car the wipers weren't working but I didn't go any further in diagnosing them, my suspicion was the switch as it felt pretty iffy. I tested the motor yesterday and everything functioned as it should, slow speed was very slow though.

It all came apart pretty easy and seemed in good condition so Im hoping it was just gunky old grease that was causing the slow speed. Ive given everything a clean, one set of brushes was a bit stuck in the holder but they freed off ok and look in good shape. The pole pieces are riveted into the main casing so I'll have to paint that. I can send the mount bracket and motor cover though.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 23, 2017, 19:57:56
I ordered a couple of dash vents from SLS which look better than what I have but the flap with the lever on it is a different shape, seems there are a couple of different types. The original one has a much larger adjuster part. Ive been deliberating the last couple of days if I either send them back or use them. I figured my best bet was to swap my lever flap from my original vents into the new ones and have the best of both worlds, fortunately the lever flaps in my originals are the best ones of all so it has all worked out OK in the end.

And at last I have one complete dash vent. Whilst the new flaps look fine and function fine they are not as solid as the originals and rattle a little if I shake them. I'll leave one on the dash of my car for a bit and see if I can hear it whilst driving, if I can I'll try and quieten it down with some dumdum or something.

why is this all so hard???
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on October 27, 2017, 20:24:34
Scott, you may want to give Buds Benz a try for the lug wrench with the pry tip. They show a regular style (no pry tip) as a for sale item, miscellaneous section. But if you scroll down, they also show a bunch of old tools. Granted the picture is probably an old one, but these are also the kinds of items that are very difficult to keep up on with inventory. A phone call may help you out.

Toll Free Phone: 800.942.8444
Local Service Phone: 770.942.8444
Fax: 770.942.8400
Email: info@budsbenz.com

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 07, 2018, 11:55:23
Thanks JonnyB, I will keep a look out for one, for ease I had already ordered a standard replacement from SLS to try. It fitted the existing clamps perfectly so I used that as a template/guide.

Ive been gearing up for rep[lacing the rear fenders and tail light panel. I wanted too strip the black coating off the panels first. It was pretty tough to get off and in hindsight I wouldn't have bothered, I had tried a small spot on one wing and came off easy so I figured it wasn't a good idea to leave it, that one stripped easy but the other ones were very difficult.

Once that was done I hung the doors and trunklid back on and lined them up with the existing panels so I knew I had a good datum to go to.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 07, 2018, 12:22:42
I had already cut out the old tail lamp inner panel before we shut for the holidays. Yesterday I carried on with fitting the new panel. There were 3 holes in the new panel that weren't in my original one so I filled those in, I also had to cut a T shaped hole in the new one for a plastic bracket, I don't know what it is for, some sort of tool I guess. Once that was all done I fitted the gas tank filler neck cover to hold everything in place, I also fitted the latch so I could lock the trunklid down and pre-fitted the tail lamp outer panel to make sure everything was lined up, then spot welded it in to place.

It all fitted very well and looked good. I then used the new lug nut wrench to line up the original mount brackets and got those welded into place. All in all a successful day!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 19, 2018, 17:55:17
I didn't get a massive amount don't to the MB last Saturday, I had already seam sealed and painted the outside of my inner tail lamp panel pricer to that so I could get the outer rear light panel fitted loosely.

I had to clean up the bottom of the rear chassis crossmember where the tail light panel welds to, and there were a couple of spots where I had gone too far with my spot weld drill and were a bit thin so I plug welded those and then sprayed a bit of weld thru primer on. I also cut the new rubber pads and foam strip that goes between the two panels. The tail light panel fits pretty nicely and looks good.

Im cutting the rear wing off tomorrow....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 19, 2018, 18:01:16
I ordered the rear license plate so I could drill the mount holes for it but the plate is slightly too big and the top touches the trunk lock housing and the bottom two corners touch the tail lamp panel. Should there be some sort of standoff? I have looked to see if I can find any info but can't find anything.

I don't really want to have a smaller plate made because then it will lose the polished border and I don't want to use USA size plates on it as I have the euro style trim for under the plate which I like.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on January 19, 2018, 18:10:29
The only way around it is to mount the plate on bobbins and attach cushions to the corners to stop it vibrating.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 19, 2018, 18:19:30
OK thanks for the heads up on that, thats what I'll do.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: 114015 on January 20, 2018, 02:30:58
Scott,


Shorten the number plates on the edges,
 ;)
or choose another (shorter) licence plate... :D ;D

Best,

Achim
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: neelyrc on January 20, 2018, 03:06:50
Scott, I used fairly hard rubber washers about 1" in diameter and about a quarter inch thick to provide stand off for my USA size plate.  Granted, I did not have the panel interference problem you have with the longer plate.  I just did not want metal contact with the finish.  You may need a little thicker rubber washers for added standoff, say 3/8th inch thick.  I don't think this will be unsightly at all.

It is interesting to note that the factory were not so concerned about esthetics.  See the "as delivered" picture of the rear Zolle plate on my car attached.  Since the oval plate was not a good fit, they simply notched it out around the trunk lock housing!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 20, 2018, 18:30:02
I think the notch cut out the top of the plate is kind of cool. Maybe I should do that.... I will have a junk license plate at work off something, I might try notching it to clear the boot lock and see how it looks.

I remember my wifes Karmann Ghia has a number plate bracket that makes the plate stand off the body that might work.

Who would have thunk mounting a license plate could cause such headaches!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Rolf-Dieter ✝︎ on January 20, 2018, 18:56:57
Hi Scott,

I once saw licence plate mounting brackets at Buds Benz, then I think the SL Shop might also have them.

Here —-> https://www.budsbenz.com/catalog/230-250-280-sl

Looks like the one you posted in the picture above also works were well.

PS. Love the work you did so far on your car. Good luck with the rest of it, i’m Sure when it is all done and you and your wife will take a spin again you will love every minute of it (I can only imagine it must be a difference like night and day from the spin you both took shortly after you took tat first drive in her). :)

Dieter
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 22, 2018, 20:05:56
Thanks Dieter, I certainly hope so!

I have ordered the VW license plate bracket, it wasn't very expensive so I'll take a flyer on it. Im not very keen on the number I have been allocated so I have been casually looking for a nicer registration number for it. 64 SLL was auctioned a little while back but I was outbid on that one. I would still keep a standard sized plate though, even with a shorter number. Ive never thought shortened plates looked that good.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 22, 2018, 20:35:40
Ive been a bit nervous about replacing the rear wings. I have replaced plenty of Corvette panels and although it is a fairly major procedure on anything they don't really phase me. I guess in theory this isn't any different but it just feels like a big step.

There wasn't a massive amount of rust in the rear fenders but enough to make them more than a simple repair, for me anyway. I have been deliberating a bit whether to replace them or repair them. There were several small areas that needed repair and I didn't want IT to wind up like a patchwork quilt. I also didn't want to use a partial fender as I didn't want to weld all the way along its length and risk warping the panel.

The other thing that was putting me off replacing the whole panel was that the replacement had a different bolt configuration for the door latch so it would have meant removing the original captive plate off the original wing and then fitting it to the new one. It's all doable but it all goes to make the job a lot more complex.

In the end I decided to replace the whole outer panel but leave the original door jamb in place. First job was to remove the lead along the door jamb spot welds so they could be drilled and ground out.

This is my first time doing anything with lead. I don't have much use for a blowtorch and the only one I had was from years ago when I was messing around with boats which was pretty old and grotty. I didn't want to use that so I got a nifty new blowtorch that turns on the gas and ignites itself at the touch of a button and went for it...

The auto torch was a useful bit of kit so I didn't have to keep shutting it off manually as there was a lot of stop starting to wire brush and cool the panel. It all came off real easy and clean though. I was surprised how thick it was on the top of the fender.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 22, 2018, 20:54:40
Once the lead was out it was time to get serious. It's a very liberating feeling to take a plasma cutter torch to the body of your classic car!

I cut around the perimeter of the panel first to get the bulk of it out the way and make it easier to trim and clean all the mating surfaces where the new panel will join. It was a bit of a a mess in there, where the foam strip goes between the inner and outer fender it had rusted reasonably badly. Corvettes have a foam strip that attaches to the frame behind the front wheel to stop muck going up the side of the frame rail and they often rust there. I guess it is one of those things that seemed a good idea at the time, I think maybe this foam strip falls into that same bracket. There is a 3M weld thru seam sealer that looks like it might be a good product for this job, I was thinking about maybe using that to replace the foam strip. I have a replacement inner fender so will cut this one off.

More of an issue is the rust around the soft top storage box that will need repair. I will have to make the pieces for this as I don't believe they are available to buy.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 22, 2018, 21:08:49
Then it was a case of drilling and grinding out spot welds and removing the last of the panel. It was all pretty straight forward. The door still shuts and latches nicely and no more nasties found. Once all the old metal was gone I wire wheeled and cleaned everything then gave it all a coat of kurust to protect the bare metal and treat any pitting.

I need to cut the door jamb off the new wing and can then start trial fitting the new panel. I hope it fits OK. Unfortunately I only ordered a wheel house for this side and the other side has now being discontinued. The other side seemed better which is why I never ordered one but I'm now concerned that the inner fender is going to look the same as this one when the wing comes off. I can get a repro part but would rather have had the real deal.

Exciting stuff eh!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 29, 2018, 21:06:07
The VW license plate bracket arrived but is not wide enough and I think the plate will vibrate a bit so Im going to go back to Sticks method of the rubber spacers.

I cut out the bad metal of the left side of the soft top box on Saturday. I knew there was going to be some rust in there but once the wing was removed it was quite badly pitted and it seems daft not to deal with it. I did some small repairs on the other side ages ago but I think I might have to go a bit further once the wing is removed from that side.

It should be a pretty straightforward repair hopefully.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on January 29, 2018, 21:33:52
Scott,
Fit the rear wing before you weld up the outer wheelhouse.  From memory in my car the rear outer wheelhouse will not be in exactly the same position when you get it all fit together.  There are some slight variations in the rear wings so in order to get it to all line up at the door jamb and rear panel you have to slightly shift the wheelhouse a bit. 
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 30, 2018, 07:20:04
I will do, I think I remember reading something about this on here. The other difference is that on my original wheelhouse the mating flange went all the way around, whereas on the new one the flange stops around 2/3rds of the way. I'll get my sheetmetal guy to make up an extra piece of flange that I can weld to the new wheelhouse.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 12, 2018, 20:40:17
The soft top box is about at an end, I just have to give the inside a skim of filler and we are done. As usual it has taken longer than I imagined but has all gone OK.

I noticed the later cars have a different drain guide on the inside without any sharp edges so I wonder if tearing the soft top was a problem on these earlier cars. I think I will put a strip of something over the top of these to protect the convertible top when this is all done.

I spent last Saturday trimming and trial fitting the rear fender and inner fender. Im having a bit of trouble getting the area between the deck lid and trunk lid to line up but I think Im just being over cautious with the trimming. I'll get Ronni to give me a hand with it this week.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 12, 2018, 20:48:25
The last batch of plating arrived back recently too and I've been spending the evenings sorting through them, theres a couple of bits I want to get done again but I almost have a full set of fasteners now. I also had them polish the wiper caps and nuts.

Pretty cool huh!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on February 13, 2018, 12:57:14
Your project and mine remind me of an article I read in BMW Excellence Magazine tears ago written by a man who had just restored a BMW 2002Tii. He said that everyone knows the common places these cars rust like near the turn signals and around the rear stut mounts but not everyone knows the more obscure places like eveywhere there is a seam and everywhere there is a bend in the metal.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 14, 2018, 06:13:45
Yes its all the hidden bits that really eat up the time, I mean look how long it has taken to do the soft top box, and I don't think I'm all that slow at this, I guess an experienced Mercedes metal man would have knocked it out a bit quicker, but I cant imagine it would have made that much difference. I wish I had bought a metal folder early on in the job but I kept making do and it is probably a bit late in the day for me to get any real value out of one now.

True to form the Mercedes has thrown me another curveball. I was struggling a bit on Saturday with the rear fender. I was getting the hump with it and felt I needed another pair of eyes and hands, Ronni is very good at this sort of thing so she and I had a couple of hours on it this afternoon. It is amazing what fresh perspective and a skilled wife can do....

It was all going so well, I was just about to put a tack on the inner fender when I thought I ought to try the rocker moulding on before I do anything final, seems that either at some point in the mid 60's Mercedes decided to shorten the distance between the door and the wheel well by 5mm, or I somehow made this car a bit smaller.

My original fender was 195mm between the door and the wheelarch, the new one is 190mm. Seems a small amount but it really screws things up and now the rocker moulding is that bit too long. I must be getting all zen with this car because rather than throwing a tantrum I just kind of smiled and carried on....I'll have to cut the rocker moulding down and weld the return back on I guess.

I looked on the SLS website and the replacement rocker moulding is listed for 1965 on, I wonder if some alteration was made to the shape of the wheel arch then to give a little more clearance at the front of the tire.

Anyway showing true grit as normal I pressed on, once the inner fender was aligned I got a couple of tacks into place on the front and a couple of spot welds on the rear, removed the rear wing again and pressed 'The Chief' into action.....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 14, 2018, 06:26:17
The spot welder has really sped things up when it comes to this kind of work, it wasn't going ever so smoothly when I first got it, I was having a lot of trouble with welds blowing through and would have to redo them, but as I have got more experienced with it things have improved no end. I spend more time now ensuring I have a real good clean earth, and keep the end of the electrode very clean and rounded off, and its really working well for me.

I have a bit of a gap where the two inner fenders meet and think I will have to increase the size of the overlap from the inner wheel house to the outer wheelhouse to cover the slight discrepancy between the two panels.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 14, 2018, 06:39:35
The other snafu that I came across was that the inner wing doesn't have a flange that extends all the way like my original, had I noticed this at the time I could have left mine attached at that point and but welded it, but hindsight is a wonderful thing right....

I was hoping to have got all this painted this week so that I could have pressed on with getting the fender on this weekend but I have quite a few bits to sort out on the inner fender before I am that stage, I'll do that on Saturday and then do my seam sealing and painting next week, hopefully I'll be able to get the fender on toward the end of next week. I hung it back on once the wheelhouse was welded on just to make sure it was OK and it fits pretty well.

I'll take the chrome strip that goes between the door and the wheel arch in today and make sure that fits the new panel.

Of course the downside to all this, other than the extra work needed on my already painted and finished rocker moulding is that I will now have to replace the outer wheelhouse on the other side regardless. I didn't buy one at the time as I didn't think Id need it, and since then they are no longer available at Mercedes, so I either need to try and find an original or go repro. My experience so far has been that the original panels fit much better than the aftermarket stuff so wold have liked to be able to stick with the genuine part.

Anyone got a RH outer wheelhouse they don't want???
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 15, 2018, 19:58:14
Seems the outer wheelhouse is available again. When I enquired to Sandown Mercedes and the classic centre a couple of weeks back they were listed as discontinued. I emailed Tom Hanson again yesterday and all of a sudden they are available again and I have one coming from Sandown.

Good news!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on February 19, 2018, 13:18:41
You are almost to the part where you get to spray a heavy coat of “rubber” over all the work you spent months agonizing over.  I ended up having to reapply my undercar gravel guard after my painter decided to paint it all body color.  I decided to research products again as I wasn’t happy with how it turned out before.  This is U-Pol Raptor tintable truck bed liner (8 liters to do the wheelhouses and floorpans)sprayed with a Sata HRS rustproof gun at about 10 bar line pressure and as little air flow as possible.  This was sprayed without a nozzle on the gun.  Just the quick disconnect. Messy operation.  Mask garage floor at least 3 meters around the car. 

The Sata gun is expensive but there are knockoffs available on your side of the pond.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on February 19, 2018, 16:02:37
Still awesome!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on February 19, 2018, 17:38:44
Scott,

I just read your comments regarding the rocker molding being too long. I was just about to chipguard and paint mine when I read you comments.  Maybe I will make sure they fit the car first.  The car is currently on a frame that pins it through the jack points so I am off it for now.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on February 20, 2018, 05:16:24
Yes I guess it seems a bit odd to go to great lengths to have spot welds visible and then hit it all with a heavy coat of undercoating... I had a young guy working with me a while back and he thought it was crazy to spend a lot of time and effort on something that no one would see, needless to say he didn't last long.

I was planning to use UPOL Gravitex on the floors, I have an undercoating gun that I think will do it but I'll run a test piece first, I think if I apply it pretty heavily I should be able to get something like the original finish. I'm not sure what the finished colour underneath would be, mine was really dirty and patchy so it was hard to get an idea. The mushroom colour I had mixed looks very close to what was on the inside of the panels I have cut off but Im not convinced thats correct for under the car.

Regarding the rocker mouldings, I was  looking through Pagoda Notes last night and saw a note in there that in January 1965 quite a few panels were altered, including rear quarters and trim, to allow for bigger tyres, hence the difference in rocker moulding length. I must admit it seems a shame to alter mine as they are in perfect condition but needs must I guess

I finished up the LH wheelhouse last Saturday, I had to make and fit the missing piece of flange for the rear part of the fender and also make a new water diverter for the front, the original one was right where the hole needed to be. I'm putting all this down to the variation in panels because I had the outer fender on holding the inner fender in position, the front and rears lined up so it must be right, right???

I was going to get ready for fitting the wing this week but I will make the piece for the inner wing and fit that so I can paint the back of everything before the wing goes on. I ordered a litre of the dark grey and thought I'd coat all the hard to get to parts before I fitted the wing to make sure everything had some protection.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 02, 2018, 18:22:38
I spent last Saturday finishing up the inner fender and welding in the left trunk floor. The replacement panel had a couple of extra holes for wiring harnesses that mine didn't have so I filled those in, there were a couple of tabs for the trunk liner that weren't on mine so I took those off also. I had originally planned to fit this after the new fender went on but access looked very poor, not only that, I'm nervous about getting this wrong and I kept trial fitting the fender over and over.

I thought it might be a good idea to try my tail light frames and Im glad I did, the outside curve of the tail lamp panel was different to the curve on the tail light housing and by bringing the floorpan out it pushed the tail light panel out to meet the curve of the tail lamp frame. The outer part of the fender is pretty much flush with the outer parts of the tail light frame and I'm pretty sure it should be slightly proud of the fender but I cant figure out any way to alter that.

Anyway I kept going back and forth and figured I may as well just go for it. So I did. As usual 'The Chief' was boss of the job. After it was in place I used my newly acquired jack to position the mounting bracket and spot welded that into place.

Another job ticked off was the little piece I had to add to the inner fender to bridge the gap between the old and new. We move inexorably toward our goal!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 02, 2018, 18:27:43
After that I squeezed some seam sealer into the joints and gave everything a coat of primer. It was good to see it all in one colour!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 02, 2018, 18:57:39
Its been a funny week here, we have had a bit of snow here and it screws everything up completely, we aren't geared up for any kind of bad weather and everything grinds to a halt. This was more than we normally get though, and combined with some big winds it has drifted across the roads and has been pretty cold.

We were low on gas for the workshop heater and had some on order which was supposed to be delivered this week but hasn't arrived due to the road conditions, as a result it is freezing in the workshop and we've had a couple of 'snow days'

The first picture is the road that leads to our shop, the banks either side of the road are around 3 feet high and the snow had drifted across the road to the same depth, the second is driving through the plowed road with the snow blowing across the road, even the mighty Touareg slipped around a bit in that, and the third is my shop shrouded in virgin snow and looking majestic....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 02, 2018, 19:30:43
Despite the bad weather I have struggled on...after the primer I gave the seams a coat of brush on seam sealer and then a spot prime on top. I also flatted the inside of the fender and re-primed that, then gave both a couple of coats of topcoat. I wanted to get as much protection on there as I can before the new panel is fitted.

It was also a good opportunity to get some paint on the bits that would be difficult to get to once the new wing is on. I had some dunkelgrau mixed up and will shoot a little of that on the inner wing and floor before the wing is fitted to help to seal everything. Its all about protecting against future corrosion, once the car is painted I'll go around everything that isn't seen with a coat of wax.

The original inner fender had a 3"x2" strip of sound deadener on there so I cut a new pice of sound deadener and stuck that on, I gave it a spot of topcoat there before it was stuck on to make sure everything was sealed.

Looking forward to getting the wing on!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on March 02, 2018, 19:48:20
Nice work Scott.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 02, 2018, 20:08:48
Thanks Stick, thats nice of you to say. Feels like a long old slog!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on March 02, 2018, 21:44:18
I second stick.  Makes my efforts seem very very amatueur.  Amazing work which I am very much enjoying watching unfold.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 03, 2018, 08:43:14
Thanks Andy. Nothing amateur about your rebuild though.

Im in a bit of a dilemma. When I got my car it had an aftermarket radio and a pair of speakers in the rear bulkhead. According to the data card it came from the factory with no radio and I kept switching between radio/no radio. I assumed that even radio delete cars would have had an antenna and speaker fitted at the factory because of the difficulty of retro fitting these items.

There was no old speaker in the dash, no old wiring, but there was the correct small additional fusebox in the engine compartment which I believe is for radio supply and the antenna hole looks to be drilled nicely and in the correct place according to the tech manual.

I'm not that bothered about listening to the radio as I only ever listen to my iPod in the car and am going to use a bluetooth speaker, I had pretty much decided on a radio delete plate because I like the look and I wouldn't have the hassle of fitting a radio that probably isn't going to work that well or sound that great anyway as I would stick with a single mono speaker in the dash.

However now I find that radio delete cars didn't have an antenna and mine does, so a delete plate would look odd with an aerial and would bug me, I then figured I'd go the radio route. I can get a restored Becker Europa TR which is correct for my year or a delete plate so Im able to go either way.

Welding the antenna hole looks like one of those jobs that is easier said than done and Im not relishing the idea of it, but if Im going to go radio delete then I'll have to and obviously now is the time.

What do you think? weld the hole and fit the plate, or fit a radio and antenna even though the data card says it shouldn't have one. Ive got to make my mind up this weekend so get those votes in....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: mbzse on March 03, 2018, 08:58:32
Quote from: Scottcorvette
I can get a restored Becker Europa TR which is correct for my year or a delete plate so Im able to go either way.
.../...What do you think?

IMHO, the radio front plate with "Nadelstreifen" pin stripes is a well fitting and nice touch there on the dash...
For me, the sound from the single speaker also fits in with the retro 60´s feel that I do enjoy in my SL
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: DaveB on March 03, 2018, 22:20:42
I would also vote for a restored Becker small-face radio. Though it would need to be a really nice one to match the other aspects of your restoration.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: neelyrc on March 04, 2018, 01:44:36
...... or fit a radio and antenna even though the data card says it shouldn't have one....

I vote for the radio and antenna,Scott.  I think it just looks better.  Will this be the only deviation from your data card?  ..tires, colors, key numbers, trim??

Just my tuppence worth! :)

Beautiful work, thanks for keeping us in the picture.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on March 04, 2018, 16:28:57
Radio adds another level of sophistication.  Was an incredible option in its day.  Becker had a string of firsts in terms of technology advancment and was a superb cosmetic compliment to the 113 in particular.  I walked over hot coals to get my small face and have never regretted it.  It wasnt that hard to install.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on March 04, 2018, 19:10:26
Original small face radio with an MP3 jack and mono speaker is the way most of my customers go.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 04, 2018, 20:08:14
Thats pretty conclusive then....

It is the way I was leaning purely because I didn't want to fill in the existing antenna hole. I try and avoiding doing things like that if I can. I really like the clean look of the delete plate, but I also like the radio so it really could have gone either way. The delete plate would have been cheaper but I got over that one long ago...

So radio it is then. From an earlier conversation with Scott Allen he advised me that the correct radio would be a Europa TG but they can be trouble and a TR would be a better bet, or a Blaupunkt, I prefer the look of the Becker. I can get one either from Becker Autosound or Koenigs Klassik , they both seem like good companies. Anyone have any advice on which one to go with?

I have the original antenna from the car that had a light blue plastic top section. Is it worth trying to get this restored or am I better going with a repro Hirschmann antenna?

There will be a few deviations from the data card but nothing really irreversible, I am going for euro lights and leather over vinyl, key numbers will be different as I have new locks, I am also fitting a 5 speed. Colours and tires will all be as original.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 04, 2018, 20:20:48
We still haven't had any gas delivered so it was too cold at work to do anything on Saturday. I wanted to get a coat of dunkelgrau on the bits that are going to be hard to get to when the wing is on. When I opened the time it looked jet black but you can see the difference from the drops on the lid after it was mixed.

When it was sprayed it looked jet black again, I hung around long enough for it to tack off so I could give it a second coat so maybe it dries more grey but it looked very black to me. When I paint the trunk completely I will flat this down and go over the whole lot but I thought some of it might be tricky to get to so I'd give it a quick blast now.

I have been toying with the idea of adding the later style drains to the soft top box and then changed my mind but I think Ive changed my mind again and will put them in before I fit the wing, I figure it can't hurt and the more drainage the better right?
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Garry on March 05, 2018, 01:22:47
Scott,


In my trunk which is original with all the dribbles, the finish of the dunkelgrau is what I would call Satin rather than matt.

I agree more drainage cannot harm.  The only rust areas on my 230Sl were around drain points that had blocked up at some point on the fire wall.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 06, 2018, 07:32:12
Its dried to a very nice satin finish, Im still convinced its black but my lovely wife says it isn't and thats good enough for me.

I stayed for a bit at work last night and cut the holes for the extra soft top box drains. I had been looking at some photos of these and seen on the factory fitted ones there was a depression around the hose so that it sits flush. I made a tool out of a couple of Corvette sway bar link kit bushing cups so that once a hole was drilled I could use them to make a depression in the metal and then enlarge the hole to the correct size. I had a couple of trial runs in a piece of steel to make sure it worked OK and it seemed to work well.

Access was tight to get the drills in but just doable. Im quite pleased with the way it went, it doesn't look exactly the same as an original car but it is close enough and better than just cutting a hole and having the lip of the drain hose sticking up.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 06, 2018, 07:36:54
I was a bit cautious about cutting the hole in the B pillar for the hose to poke through and could have gone about a 1/4" lower in hindsight, I didn't want to cut it too fine but it meant I had a sharper curve than I would have liked on the hose. I used a Corvette gas tank drain hose spring to go inside the hose and that enabled it to curve without kinking so alls well that ends well although I might shorten the hose a little.

I'll do the other side when the wing is off as I suspect I will have the same issues with the soft top box as I had on this side.

I really don't like drilling extra holes in old cars but I think this is probably a good thing to do. Once I had cleaned up the raw edges I touched them in with a bit of primer and will touch in the brown paint today, then I do believe it is time to fit the new fender...watch this space!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 15, 2018, 08:23:54
The new rocker mouldings arrived from MB along with the soft top chrome strip. For once the chrome strip seemed excellent value, or maybe I'm just a seasoned Mercedes parts buyer now...

The mystery of the rocker mouldings is solved once and for all and the new ones are indeed around 1/4" shorter, they fit the car perfectly so all's well that ends well. Quite a nice reassurance that Ive got everything back in the right place too....

The last picture shows the new ones laid over the top of the original and the difference is significant, so if anyone out there has a 63-64 car with original rear quarters bear it in mind that if you need replacement rocker mouldings, they will be too short!

Once again the value of this forum is proven hands down.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: swood1 on March 22, 2018, 07:49:13
soft top chrome strip.

Hi Scott,

Is this soft top chrome strip the one that goes around the hatch for the soft top? 

Regards

Steve
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: swood1 on March 22, 2018, 07:56:04
coat of dunkelgrau

Hi Scott, can I ask did you manage to obtain this paint from a UK supplier? 


Regards

Steven
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 30, 2018, 07:30:59
The soft top strip is the one that goes on the top of the soft top itself. I got the paint mixed up by Morelli, but any paint factor should be able to mix it on the code DB164, I had mine done in Glasurit 68 line.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 30, 2018, 07:42:41
There hasn't been much progress in the last couple of weeks. I was pretty crook with a bad cold and had a couple of days off work, I didn't feel like going in over a couple of Saturdays so nothing got done. Normal service is resumed now and I finally got the left rear quarter welded on.

It has been a fairly stressful experience overall. I don't know if I made life harder for myself or not by removing the replacement door shut. I wanted to retain the original 3 bolt door latch receiver and the replacement uses the 4 bolt type. Not sure if having the door shut in a fixed position would be good or not. I was able to tweak the shut to get the curve of the wing to match the door just about perfectly, and the door gap is pretty good, it widens by about 1mm toward the top but the original had some lead in there so I figure it is what it is.

Overall Im quite pleased with the fit, all the swage lines are nice and that was my main concern. Try as I might I couldn't get the trunk lid shut line exactly the same all the way along so I figure the boot lid will need to be filed down a little to make the gap. 'The Chief' made short work of the spot welds as usual, I put a few extra in on the door shut where it starts to curve round the top of the fender, I had to get a bit persuasive there...
 
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 30, 2018, 07:49:25
I'm very pleased with the fit of the new rocker mouldings, in fact all the panels have been very good, the replacement fender is a very good fit and is a nice sturdy panel.

I stayed the other night and finished up the welds on the underside of the arch. My spot welder has an adapter to weld inside wheel arches, I spent forever trying to get it to work for me but gave up in the end and resorted to the single sided gun which worked perfectly.

I have a few little detail bits to finish off tomorrow and then we can declare that one done and do it all over again on the other side...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: johnk on March 30, 2018, 20:29:35
I'm so jealous of your abilities Scott!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: star63 on March 31, 2018, 17:20:05
me too!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on April 07, 2018, 18:28:12
Thats very nice of you to say. It does feel like an uphill struggle but I'm quite enjoying the challenge. Its also quite different at the moment to my day to day work owing to the amount of metalwork involved.

I have finished the left rear fender now as far as I can at this stage. I had the corner near the top of the door to do which is now finished. I have to fill the door gap as it was before and I think Im going to try my hand at lead loading for that. I've kept the old fenders to practice on...

Once that was out the way I started cutting the wing off the other side, it has all gone a lot quicker now I've done one already and I'm a lot more gung-ho about it all, to the point where Ive had to reign myself in a bit so I don't cut too much off. Once the fender was off and the inner fender could be seen a lot more clearly it illustrates that this was definitely the right way to go. If you look at the back of the inner fender still attached around the wheel arch you can see how rotten it all is. I wouldn't wanted to have patched all that up.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on April 07, 2018, 18:45:06
Today I've been cleaning up the flanges on the door shut and inner fender ready for the new panels.I also cut the door shut off the new fender so we are getting there. You can see a patch in the side of the soft top box that I put in from the other side probably a couple of years ago near the start of the project.That will get removed and redone from this side to make a better job of it now the access has improved.

I hung the new fender on to have a quick look and the fit seems good which is a relief. I'm starting to get a bit excited that the metalwork is drawing to a close and we aren't far from moving on to the next stage....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on April 18, 2018, 04:37:17
I was poking around the CB's Autoteile website a couple of weeks back and noticed they supply a trunk mat for the cars with vertical spare tires. I had been under the impression that this had been NLA for some time and no one reproduced it so I emailed the owner and he said he could make me one and it arrived a couple of days ago.

I have never seen an original one, just a few photographs online but to my untrained eye it is just perfect. The fit is superb, it is very nicely moulded and finished and wasn't crazy money either.

This was something that has been bothering me that I didn't have one and it was looking unlikely that I'd be able to get one either so I'm very happy with this part. I guess I'll need to get a trunk mat to protect my trunk mat.

http://www.cbs-autoteile.de
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on April 18, 2018, 04:45:10
I also ordered the under dash panels that I was missing at the same time. These are also very nice, again I have nothing to compare it too but I am assuming these are made out of the same material as the trunk boards and they look very nice to me.

I know a lot of you guys like to make this sort of thing yourselves but I could never have made these panels as nicely as this by hand. They look stamped or die cut or something, and where there is a fold the bead is nicely stamped in. They were €30-40 a piece.

Th guy is a pleasure to deal with too.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on April 18, 2018, 04:51:08
I spent last Saturday cutting out the bad metal out of the soft top box. I also removed a bit of the inner fender where the flange wasn't looking too hot. I started to make a repair piece for it but it wasn't going well so filed that in the skip and will have another go next time...

I have an operation on my eye later on today so probably won't be doing much for a week or so, my overly protective wife says that grinding and welding is not allowed until I am fully healed...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 01, 2018, 17:22:11
Its been a while since I have done anything to this one. I had a bit of restoration work myself... An eye test revealed the pressure in my eyes was too great so after unsuccessful laser treatment I wound up having cataract surgery in both eyes. Then I got a cancellation for a heart surgery I had been waiting for and that happened the same week... Anyway Im brand new now. Ive been catching up at work the last couple of months and today was the first chance Ive had to get back on the Mercedes. I must admit it was good for my soul to see some progress on this one again so I think I'll make a bit more effort to make more time for it.

I carried on with the soft top box repairs today. I used a bit of left over seat mount repair panel to make the repair piece out of. Once I had gotten the shape right I pressed the tried and tested dimple tool into action to make the dimple for the drain pipe, then it was time for the big weld up... Was a lot easier to put the dimple in before it was welded into the car.

It was quite a relaxing day after a few months of non stop catch up. We have also been working on a new website for the last 18 months or so and that has taken up a huge amount of my time, and still is. See what you think... www.corvettekingdom.co.uk

Anyway its good to be back!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Rolf-Dieter ✝︎ on September 01, 2018, 17:48:00
Hi Colin.

The link to the 280 SL looks like my 903 H blue. I’ve recieved many compliments and nice comments about this colour.

Best,

Dieter
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on September 02, 2018, 06:12:52
Look after yourself, Scott. Delighted they have you patched up with some new welds but your health and family are more important than an old car...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on September 04, 2018, 17:38:51
Hey
This looks vaguely familiar...
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2018-09-22/cars/ref-89-1973-fiat-130b-coup%C3%A9-by-pininfarina/
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 05, 2018, 06:28:54
Not mine, I just sold mine at the local classic car auction:

https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/classic/saturday-25th-august-2018/1972-fiat-130-coupe-automatic/

A pretty disappointing result but they aren't a particularly well known car, hard to get parts for, and not that desirable it seems... Shame because it really was a lovely thing. I hope they do better than I did!

So I'm down to the Corvette and half a Mercedes now.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 06, 2018, 06:49:35
The new floor mats from, the classic centre arrived yesterday, they look very nice and I ma pleased to have all the rubber mats now for the footwells and for the trunk floor with vertical spare.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on September 06, 2018, 07:45:16
Almost finished! ;)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 14, 2018, 18:35:42
I wish it was....Once again life is getting in the way of some serious Pagoding. We are having an extension built so a lot of my attention and finances are focused there at the moment.

A little bit more progress was made last weekend though and I now have an almost complete soft top box. Im out for a boozy lunch with a friend tomorrow so no Pagoding this weekend either...

In other news new wheel trims arrived today. These are crazy money and I did think about going repro on these but they are such a focal part of the car that I figured either go big or go home....

I had a couple of oak beams turn up too, these suckers are 23 feet long... Been an exciting day!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on September 15, 2018, 09:07:50
"Go big or go home."   So many of those moments over the years.  I think the one that hurt the most was deciding to buy brand new brake calipers and just be done with it.  It wasn't the most expensive but considering it is about $4 worth of cast steel it was a tough one.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on September 30, 2018, 18:04:39
The further I get into this project the easier it is to 'Go Big'... The most recent 'going big' was the ashtray assembly. I had dismantled mine and had a few parts re-chromed but it was never going to look anything. I saw a post on here from someone who had bought a repro one and the price wasn't significantly different to the genuine item so I figured I'd order one whilst availability was good.

The other thing I have learned since starting this project is 'Grab it while you can'... When I started this the Mercedes grille star was available but eye watering, now they are unobtainable I had to pay similar money for a rechromed item which was always a bit of a gamble.

We are fortunate though that a lot of these parts are available as genuine items, and my findings up to this point is that is a significant difference in quality between genuine and reproduction.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 01, 2018, 23:35:15
I carried on with trimming and trial fitting the right hand inner and outer fenders on Saturday, still a few little tweaks to make here and there but they are fitting pretty well so far. I left a piece of the old inner fender attached at the rear this time so I don't have to make a new section to compensate for the early/late inner fender differences that caught me out last time - Catch me once Mercedes....

Thought I'd triple check my fitment by trying the new rocker moulding on, imagine my surprise when it was 1/4" too long just like the other side was with my original rocker moulding. I measured the wing and they were both 7 1/2" door to wheel well. I measured the rocker moulding and the left side is 63", the right side 63 1/4"

I packed up and went home at this point, I tried calling Mercedes but my guy is on vacation so I'll call next week. Im wondering if there are two part numbers available for the right side rocker moulding (early/late) and only one for the left side. Anyway looks like I might be back to square one and having to trim the rocker moulding to fit.

I must have been bad in a previous life to deserve this...

I also melted a chunk of lead out of the panel between the decklid and trunk lid, it must have been over 1/8" thick, I thought it was a factory lead seam where the panels are joined but it revealed some previous damage between the two panels, just goes to show what lurks under the paint on some of these cars.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: lowpad on October 03, 2018, 22:20:59
Scott,

It's been following your restoration.  I had my '66 230SL restored about a decade ago and it's fun to see how you have dealt with various challenges and problems.  I didn't read the entire thread -- did you go Tex or leather on the seats?  I could never find good Tex seatcovers that came anything close to my originals, so I just replaced the springs and horsehair and had my upholsterer put the old covers back on.  They look nearly new now. 

Also, how did you trim the rubber floor mats?  I'm kind of amazed that the Classic Center (nor any of the private vendors) sell these pretrimmed for the dimmer, accelerator etc.  Seems like a bit of pain. 

Regards,

Lowell
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 27, 2018, 04:25:19
Lowell Im a long way off both those stages at the moment. I am planning on leather for the interior even though it was originally MBTex.

Have been making a little more progress, the inner fender is now fully welded on and went quite smoothly. I have been regularly offering up the outer fender to make sure everything is aligned, I also trial fitted the tail light surround to make sure it was all good. Once that alignment was checked I welded in the outer section of the boot floor. It has all fitted together very nicely and I am pleased with the way it is turning out.

Check out the monster I found living in the manky old swamp that is the area underneath our compressor. I like to think he's been there forever...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 27, 2018, 04:33:51
Since that portion of the welding was over I seam sealed everything with polyurethane and then re-primed it all, once that had dried I went over the hidden seams with a brushable seam sealer and primed again, then 2 coats of topcoat over the inner fender and the backsides of the outer fender in the mushroom and Mercedes black/grey colours.

The area inside the trunk will get flatted down and repainted again when I do the inside of the trunk proper, the idea here was to get protection on the backside of all the sheetmetal before it gets welded in. The mating surfaces have all been coated with a weld thru primer so I figure the protection is about as good as I can get it.

I think it all looks very nice. I did the same on the other side and if you shine a torch up inside the wing it's pretty cool seeing its all the proper colour in there..
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: neelyrc on October 27, 2018, 05:49:55
Looking very, very nice Scott.  Beautiful workmanship!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on October 27, 2018, 17:08:46
Indeed, Pagoda restoration as art! Awesome stuff.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 28, 2018, 04:25:35
Thank you both, you're very kind.

I was hoping to get the fender welded in place yesterday but I wanted to get all the rear panels trims etc pre-fitted before the rear panel was welded on so I could take it off again to clean out any swarf left over from drilling, and clean up and paint the backs of the holes. I didn't think Id be able to get the rear panel off with the other fender in place so I figured I'd better get on that now.

It took a while to get the licence plate straight and centred and mark out the holes for the rear panel trim. I deliberated a bit between UK plates with trim or USA size plates with no trim, UK number plates are a bit big really but I quite like the look of the euro trim and I am fitting euro style headlights so figured it made sense. I wasn't too impressed with the fit of the trim. I figured it would follow the curve of the rear light panel but it doesn't really. It is a genuine MB item so I guess it is what it is.

It was nice to see the rear end with a bit of ornamentation on there. I also marked out and drilled the holes for the fuel vapour canister line clips whilst I was in there and had good access with the fender off.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on October 28, 2018, 04:42:22
By the time I was through with all that it was getting a bit late in the day to start welding so I  knocked it on the head and finished up some Corvette trailing arms I had been building up for stock. Ive just built 6 of these up from scratch and am now officially sick of Corvette trailing arms....

In other news the mystery of the oversize rocker moulding has finally been resolved once and for all. Seems there are two Mercedes part numbers for the RH rocker mouldings, the one I was sent was 113 883 02 01 which is suitable for cars up to some point in 1965 whenever the fender design was changed, and this would have been correct for mine had it still had its original fender, then there is 113 883 04 01 for cars after 1965, which is also the one needed for a car that has had replacement rear fenders. Sandown Mercedes took the original one back and sent me the replacement and it fits perfectly. So keep that in mind if you are replacing your wing!

In other other news I have just bought myself a 66 Corvette coupe. We did a body off and respray on this 12 years ago for a customer and this is the first time we have had it back since, it still looks very nice. He decided he didn't use it enough and wanted to sell. I have fancied one of these for a while and nearly kept the last one we had but it needed too much work. This needs a little bit of fettling now but nothing too dramatic. I really like the look of these mid year coupes so am looking forward to getting it on the road.

Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: James on October 28, 2018, 04:50:47
Hi Scott,
i have read your posts with interest.
Did you fix the brake booster?
If so, how?
My car is a 1965 RHD 230 SL and the internal bakelite componentry has failed and it is no longer made.
Any pointers?
James
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Jonny B on October 28, 2018, 15:42:57
Okay, off topic - but love the mid-year Vettes. And the turbine wheels are the icing on the cake - gorgeous.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: andyburns on October 28, 2020, 05:42:44
Whats happened to this link?  Loved reading the updates.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on January 19, 2021, 20:16:50
I'm still here but I haven't touched the Mercedes in over two years! The last thing I did to it was in November 2018, I was spot welding the tail light panel in to place and the spot welder quit working so that went in for repair, by the time it came back I was busy with work and couldn't spare any time, then building work on the house got in the way which took forever, then I started working on the 66 Corvette and that turned in to a bigger project than I had planned, and I am currently getting ready for an engine and transmission swap in that so the poor old Pagoda has taken something of a back seat, although not intentionally.

I'm not really sure what to do with it now, I have got a bit stalled with it and don't know if I really have the chops to get back into it again. I keep blowing hot and cold about selling it but the car is so in pieces I think that would be easier said than done. I figure I'll get my other jobs out the way and then see how I feel.

This is how it was left, the rear fender is on but needs finishing touches, it looks exactly the same two years on but dustier..
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: johnk on January 20, 2021, 00:51:32
I enjoyed your posts as well Scott. Plus they were very helpful in guiding me on how to do some of my own chassis repair.

Good luck and hope to see the posts start up again in the future.

John
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Cees Klumper on January 20, 2021, 02:54:47
You know, as these cars are getting more expensive (partly because of rapid parts price increases), your car will appreciate - the longer it takes you to finish it, the more it will be worth when it's done. So take your time, no stress, just enjoy working on it, and it will pay you back once you finish it. But especially if you finish it!
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on January 20, 2021, 10:18:22
Scott, having bought unfinished projects in the past I know how problematic they can be but if you do want out of it let me know.
Stick
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Shvegel on January 31, 2021, 11:32:20
Stickandrudderman (Colin)does nice work.  If you do decide to sell he won't mess up what you have started.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: JamesL on April 07, 2022, 17:13:18
Any news Scott
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on April 07, 2022, 19:36:14
Im still here but no nearer to getting started on the 230. Earlier on in this thread I mentioned I had bought a 66 Corvette, I spent most of my spare time that year tinkering with that and then building/renovations/decorating at home so that was a lot of my spare time gone.

I then started doing a bit more with the 66, I found a period correct 327 and had that rebuilt and made inroads into fitting a 5 speed transmission, next thing I'm into a full blown body off and thats where I'm at with it now. I really don't know how it happened but it did...

Once the 66 is done I have some work to do to my 62 Corvette and then I can get back on to the Mercedes. I doubt it will be until later this year early next though. I keep thinking I should make inroads into selling it but that in itself would be a fairly laborious task and it would seem a shame after I have put so much into it.

I figure I'll make a start on it again when I get time and see if my enthusiasm gets renewed.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 21, 2023, 05:07:28
So after a long period of not much happening it seems I am thrust headlong into the world of Pagoda renovation once more...

My engine man sent me a surprise email saying he had started ion my engine rebuild. I took this to him way back in around 2015 but every time he was about to start on it I took him a Corvette motor to do instead so mine took a back seat, no problem for me though has I hadn't touched the car myself in years anyway.

Pretty exciting to see some progress on it though, here the block has been cleaned and machined.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 21, 2023, 05:09:27
Crankshaft balanced...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 21, 2023, 05:11:33
Cylinder head with new valve guides installed and new valves ready....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 21, 2023, 05:18:27
And now with the crank and new pistons installed. Its hard to believe I've had this car nearly ten years now and am still so far away from it being completed. I finished the 66 Corvette and that is home now, the 62 is at work and I need to get that done before I can get stuck into this one, but I'm starting to get a bit of enthusiasm back for the Mercedes and have started ordering a couple of bits for it now.

The last thing I found was one of my tail light frames was bent so I have bitten the bullet and ordered a couple of complete tail lamp assemblies, along with new injection lines as mine are blocked, another lasting legacy from my plating nightmare early on in this process...

And to finish here's a picture of me and my engine guy, I'm the one on the left. what is interesting is that neither of us had any grey hair before we started this project. Anyway its nice to be back...
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: DaveB on March 21, 2023, 05:40:19
Hi, looks good! Nice to see such a thorough professional job.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on March 21, 2023, 07:51:10
Scott, it might be too late now but we advised that new lenses (complete with chrome surround) are now all plastic when ordered from Mercedes. Difficult to tell the difference visually but for the money they cost I think it's a bit of a cheek.
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: Scottcorvette on March 21, 2023, 10:20:25
Im getting the tail lamp assemblies from Authentic Classics. I got lenses real early on from K and K and wasn't impressed with them so am hoping these will be better.

when I enquired with Mercedes about tail lamps they weren't available and I never thought to try again. they are the all red lenses I need. maybe if the AC ones are no good I'll try the MB route....
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: lgarret on March 21, 2023, 15:47:02
Keep us posted on the authentic classics ones, could use a set for my 65
Thanks
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: 114015 on March 21, 2023, 18:20:43
No.

Scott, for the taillight lenses you always have to go the aftermarket route,
and you can still keep your old chrome surrounds. MB doesn't supply all-red taillight (A113 802 0164 and 0264) since 1989 anymore...; from the dealer you could only buy the late 280 SL lenses ...., at a price in the meanwhile.

Aftermarket lenses are available with and without chrome surround from several sources. It helps to look around for the most suitable ones for your taste.
There are even (all-red) lenses around that are fitted into the chrome surround from behind - very similar to the 280 SL lenses. You won't see the difference 10 feet away, but you can see this close by.

Good luck with your car!

Best,
Achim
(only original lenses...)
Title: Re: 1964 230SL restoration in UK
Post by: stickandrudderman on March 22, 2023, 08:09:24
Of course you realise that were it a requirement to have an MOT, a fussy tester would fail it on red indicator lenses.:)