Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 624054 times)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1750 on: August 29, 2018, 05:47:22 »
Hi guys, great to here from a few familiar faces.  Stick thanks for that and yes I didn't muck around.  Life is too short... and into the bargain the new wife loves Mercedes.  Just got her a mint little slk 200 R171 which looks lovely along side the 230.

The designer that used my car contacted me to say that I can have all the professional photos that my car featured in.  Are you guys interested or all fashioned showed out?  I can never get enough of sexy woman in and around pagodas :)
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

114015

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1751 on: August 29, 2018, 12:34:43 »
Andy ....?
 :D 8)
Perfect !
 8) :D
Let the photos come!


All best to Auckland,

Achim
Achim
(Germany)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1752 on: February 12, 2019, 03:48:39 »
I never was that great at mind teasers.  That's certainly what has been thrown at me with the removal of the brake booster on my right hand drive pagoda.
 
I am almost certain that this is even more challenging by a country mile than any under dash repair that you might mention

I now remember when I took the car apart hitting the same problem. Even getting the securing nuts off the brake booster to free it from the aluminium spacer block is an absolute nightmare. But then you discover that there is not enough clearance to slip booster off past inlet manifold.
 
So then I decided to strip down the manifold and try and take that off around the booster just to discover exact same problems clearing the inlet manifold studs with the manifold interfering with the booster.
 
I remember when I took the car apart now having the same problems and resolving it by unbolting the engine from the transmission and crane up the engine to a point where I could slip the manifolds off.
 
Surely this can't be the only way to do this. My only other thoughts are to undo the engine mounts, which is a job unto itself, and try and raise the engine high enough to get the clearance I need. Even then I don't think there's going to be enough clearance.
 
I decided last weekend that I'd finally have a huge push to fixing all the issues up with the old girl so I can take it to a car show in a months time.  the brake booster was the biggest issue to me. I'm certain that the diaphragm and it has blown as it's hissing like a snake out the rear of the booster every time the brake pedal is pushed. Also it seems that is absolutely no assistance from the booster which makes driving it a little bit scary.
 
I'm also wondering if I can swap the booster from my w108 into the 113 just to get it going and then sort the 108 out later as it has far more room to work in.
 
The 108 booster looks identical and measures up exactly the same. It's an early booster out of a 67 250 s. I know soon after that Mercedes changed booster in the 108. So I'm wondering if the early booster is identical to what's in the pagoda. The only difference might be if it's got a ball or a fork. If anyone knows I'd be most appreciative. Otherwise I will pull her booster out of the w108 and eyeball them both side by side.
 
What would be great is if someone with access to the epc could do a bit of research and see if they can find any mention of an early right-hand drive booster for the 113. If they find it is it possible to cross reference the part number and see if that is common to any other Mercedes models.
 
I think this is such a tricky little problem that it's worth me documenting it in here just in case anyone else hits the same issues with their right hand drive.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 04:02:20 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1753 on: February 12, 2019, 09:41:20 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../...I'm also wondering if I can swap the booster from my w108 into the 113.../... I'm wondering if the early booster is identical to what's in the pagoda.../...

On a LHD W113 Pagoda or 108, the boosters are the same. In the Pagoda, there is an intermediate bracket with a lever arm. The booster mounts onto this bracket.
See https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28312.msg204580#msg204580

« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 11:30:31 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1754 on: February 12, 2019, 10:07:15 »
Hi. My bracket is much shorter than the one you show.  Specific to RHD to avoid inteterance with the inlet manifold.  And also instead of the fork you can see in your photo the rhd has a ball at the end of the rod that mates onto a cup on the pedal assembly.   Once I get it all apart I will take some detailed pics.  The big question is if my W108 booster also has the ball.  If it doesn't its not going to be able to be used.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1755 on: February 12, 2019, 10:38:43 »
Quote from: andyburns
Hi. My bracket is much shorter than the one you show.  Specific to RHD.../...
Sorry I should have written that the info I provide is for LHD...   I'm not so familiar with RHD.

I do have a NOS T51 brake booster which has a threaded "pin" instead of a fork, see picture. Is this what fits RHD Pagoda cars?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 21:57:59 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1756 on: February 12, 2019, 10:47:23 »
That's OK.  Any help is appreciated and the more info we get will make it much easier for the next poor soul who attempts this removal.

I don't believe that the booster you show us correct either.  It should have quite a pronounced ball on the end of the rod rather than a threaded rod. 

I am really keen to get the part number and see what the epc has to say about compatibility with other models.  Anyone have access to this?
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1757 on: February 12, 2019, 16:50:49 »
I’m currently in Switzerland but from memory I believe the part number starts with “113” which usually means it’s a part specifically for that model. I will check when I get home.
Incidentally, you wouldn’t be the first person to ship their booster to me from Australia to have it overhauled.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1758 on: February 12, 2019, 18:03:28 »
Hi Colin.  I suspect you are on the money and the 108 unit will be identical with exception to not having a ball.

If that's the case I will have no option but to repair.

Before I do that I still have to get the thing out of the car.  Have you got any idea how to do it without removing the engine?

My back is incredibly bad again at the moment and I am not wanting to get under the car to jack things up if I can help it.   I suspect the only way it's possible is to release the gearbox mounts and tilt the engine as far back on its mounts as it will go to get the manifold off.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1759 on: February 13, 2019, 05:44:28 »
Spent this morning just staring wondering what Mercedes were thinking about.

I am now sure that that the only way to either remove the booster or the inlet manifold is to remove the exhaust manifold, release the engine mounts and then jack the engine up.

The space available to get any tools in is absurb.  I think Mercedes only ran with the bellowed extractors for less than a year.  I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the factory workshop when am early right hand drive with a faulty booster came in.  Can anyone fill in the gaps here with suitable German swear words.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1760 on: February 15, 2019, 08:50:59 »
Not sure if my old mundane 113 restoration posts will interest anyone anymore.... there seems to be much better entertainment to be found on other threads.

Brake boosters aren't that interesting but I really want to put this one up in case some other poor bugger has to go through the frustration I have just endured.

So I finally managed to get my booster out today and as suspected I had to not only remove the inlet manifold but also tilt the entire engine forward on the engine mounts to get the required clearance past the booster.  I ended up just dropping the gearbox engine mount center nuts and jacking the back of the gearbox up really gently to avoid damage to the engine mounts and also the exhaust which was still bolted to the block.

This gave me literally about 3mm of clearance to slip off the manifold.  Even then I had to take a few fittings out of the manifold to sneak it past.  I also found that the inlet manifold was binding up on the exhaust manifold which was still bolted firmly to the head with only the very two outmost nuts.  So I had to also remove these and slide the inlet and exhaust manifolds off simultaneously.

The joy.. 

With the booster out I was able to compare it side to side with a T51 booster I picked up second hand.  I am almost certain it came out of a W108. 

Its really interesting to eyeball them together.  Other than the fork of the W108 unit the only difference is the thickness.   The W108 being about 40mm thinner.  All the other dimensions are identical with all the mounting points in exactly the same location.

The reduction of 40mm in thickness means that I wouldn't not have any issues getting this booster in an out with the manifolds in place. Quite an appealing notion after the torment I have been through over the past couple of days.

The reduction of thickness is down to the new booster having a convex outer cover (see photos) rather than concave of the old original booster.

So my first thought was to modify the new W108 booster by either cutting and welding a ball on where the fork is or by making up an oversize sleeve, cutting the fork and slipping the sleeve over.  I took it down to my engineer mate to chew the fat. Long story short either way would work but both approached would require some dis-assembly of the booster to expose the shaft.  I went away to think about it.

Then I decided to ring around again and have managed to find a really old school guy who has worked on these booster before.  He wants me to take both of them in for testing on Monday and is really confident if the new one comes up good then there is a high chance that we can simply swap the 113 rod over into the W108 body and be good to go with a booster that will actually fit the car well. 

He was quite taken back when I asked if I could come and watch him and take photos.  So that's going to be Monday.  I cant find another thread with disassembly photos so this may be of interest to someone in here especially those who have right hand drive cars.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

EeVeeWee

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1761 on: February 15, 2019, 10:49:11 »
This bonnet is not so easy to repair, I guess.

Again something else.

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1762 on: February 15, 2019, 20:23:49 »
Huh? ???

mrfatboy

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1763 on: February 15, 2019, 20:42:46 »
My first suggestion would be to get rid of the dancing bears. They can wreak havoc. 😜😜😜😜🤪🤪🤪🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 20:49:21 by mrfatboy »
1969 280sl (Aug 1968 build)
Signal Red
4 Speed

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1764 on: February 15, 2019, 21:19:40 »
Huh? ???

Double Huh.??? Has this forum gone to the bears?
EeVeeWee did you mean to post in here ?
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1765 on: February 15, 2019, 21:55:42 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../...The reduction of thickness is down to the new booster having a convex outer cover (see photos) rather than concave of the old original booster.../...
Andy you have made a nice comparison illustration showing the difference between the first type T51/200 brake booster (installed from 1963 to Oct 1968) compared to the later type T51 booster (Late 1968 to 1971).
See for instance https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28312.msg204580#msg204580
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 21:50:56 by mbzse »
/Hans S

EeVeeWee

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1766 on: February 15, 2019, 22:38:32 »
Double Huh.??? Has this forum gone to the bears?
EeVeeWee did you mean to post in here ?

May be I didn't understand the purpose of this topic?
"Restoration Difficulty Level" I thought it was about the difficulties you experience during restoration?
If not, just ignore my post.
Again something else.

DaveB

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1767 on: February 16, 2019, 01:20:05 »
Hi EeVeeWee,

This topic is specifically about Andy's (epic) restoration. Completely understand your interpretation though, given the topic title. If you read right through the thread you will pick up some good tips. Just as we are benefiting from your posts!

Your trunk lid looks terrible. I agree that will be extremely difficult to repair - better to look for a good used one, there are plenty out there. If you find a good straight one you will need to do some building and filing around the edges to get the gaps right but I think it would be easier than repairing this one. Did you say the sandblasters gave the front hood the same treatment???
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1768 on: February 16, 2019, 02:16:56 »
EeVeeWee it's OK.  I understand the confusion now.  You restoration is beautiful.  I have been watching it with great pleasure over the past few months.  Please keep the posts coming.  I am sure you will end up with a beauty.

Thanks to you to mbze.  I had read that link before.  I really want to get inside this booster and take a look at what's broken and hopefully document a successful repair.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1769 on: February 16, 2019, 09:36:58 »
T51 Brake booster sectional drawing showing what goes on inside
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1770 on: February 16, 2019, 09:43:16 »
Thanks  you mbze.  I will study that tonight.  Quite exicted to see if I can swap my early T51 RHD ball push rod for  a latter T51 fork equivilent.  I think if its possible then it will certainly help out any RHD owner in the same position.  There are so many parts that are like rocking horse **** for the rhd 113 that any little **** bits that get you back on the road are like absoulte gold.  Happy to share where applicable. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1771 on: February 16, 2019, 15:16:33 »
I had to make a special press for assembly/disassembly. Once you get it apart do not be surprised to find the Bakelite component is broken and your booster rendered scrap.
I am working on having these Bakelite posts (specific to RHD) remanufactured in stainless steel.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1772 on: February 16, 2019, 19:36:54 »
Thanks Stick.  I am hoping that the Baker light in one of the boosters is sound.  If it isn't then I will have to go down the path you mention of manufacturing on.   I have already spoken with my Barry from South Auckland forgings who has access to a 3d scanner and a 3d printer capable of popping out objects in with titanium or stainless steel so always an option I guess.  Will keep you guys posted.  I really only have till the 3rd of March to get this done so the clock is most definitely ticking.  Stick do you have any photo of the baker light to give me an idea of what to expect.  I was imagining the hub of the diaphragm was baker light not sure what you mean about the post specific to RHD.  Have you got one in the workshop cracked open by any chance.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1773 on: February 21, 2019, 03:27:23 »
Bugga.  The second new booster tested up faulty.  Back to the drawing board....
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

PeterW113

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1774 on: February 21, 2019, 08:45:38 »
Andy

Not sure if this helps but this is the part no of the ATE booster fitted to my 280. I know it’s not the original as was fitted +20 years.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 08:50:58 by PeterW113 »
Peter
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