Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: andyburns on April 15, 2013, 02:18:29
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Hi all,
I am a rank amateur in terms of car restoration having refurbished a couple of W108's in my own garage. Last year I took on a 1963 230sl thinking it would be about the same level of difficulty as the previous cars I have attempted.
I cant really put a finger on it but everything with this car seems to be either fiddly or much more difficult to get right resulting in vast sums of time an money being spent.
Little things that I thought would take minutes, like the seized hinges, have taken days to resolve. The only rust I have encountered seems to be in ridiculously hard to work on places. Hairline stress cracks in the door frame. The list goes on and on.
I am interested to here from other home restorers to see if this is a common experience or if I have just hit a 'bad luck' car.
I am sure I will get a really nice little sl out of the process but am starting to wonder if the reward will be worth the effort.
Cheers
Andy
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Also interested to see what you guys thing about restored pristine examples over usable drivable ones. I think I may have made a mistake in that after I purchased my 230 I couldn't resist but take bits off it before I had even driven 20 miles. One part led to 2000.
I really wish I had driven it for a year now. Perhaps I would have enjoyed it so much I may not have contemplated the restoration. The attached pic is the day I purchased it.
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I really wish I had driven it for a year now. Perhaps I would have enjoyed it so much I may not have contemplated the restoration.
That's quite possibly right but obviously too late now :) But it will be better to drive with all the new mechanicals, and you get to address the tricky rust sooner rather than later. I've read many times of people doing high level restorations and subsequently being worried to drive or park the car for fear of damage or theft. But they rarely go as far as saying they regret the restoration. I like Jay Leno's philosophy: "I like to restore a car to 98 or 100 points, then drive it down to 10 or 20 points and, if you really want to, restore it again."
I guess the differences between the SL and the 108 (aluminium panels, frameless windows, hardtop, soft top) will all increase the level of difficulty somewhat. No difference otherwise, except perhaps that SLs tend to get restored to a higher level.
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Dave, I am sure your right and when its finished the memory of the toil will be long forgotten. I think I am just at that point of 'when the hell is this going to be over'. Think when the top coat is applied and bits start going back in I will feel better about it.
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Andy,
Incredible ... you have taken it all the way ... looks amazing. During most exhaustive long-term projects (in life & work in general) many of us hit this wall ... some know they will hit it and actually put together a packet before starting the project and expect to open this packet when they hit the wall ... the packet contains items of inspiration that made one want to take this on in the first place and usually a letter of encouragement to oneself.
You need to find why you took it on ... and this will get you over the hump. A few of us were just at the Essen Classic Car Event in Germany this weekend and seeing pristine cars is incredibly inspiring if one is in the restoration process. It may help to refuel your drive by seeing some really nicely done cars. A real shot in the arm.
At least your findings are surprises in difficulty or complexity and not surprises of the extreme rusty kind ... you are way ahead of many.
Best of luck and continue sharing ... it will help us and yourself ... great photos.
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For what it's worth I estimate that to restore a rotten shell properly (new sills, wings & floors) involves around 300 hours drilling, welding & fabricating plus another 300 hours prepping and painting.
This is for someone who doesn't have to do any head-scratching so you might want to add a head-scratching supplement of say 50% and you'll see that 900 hours is not impossible.
Now, let's say you spend 10 hours per week doing this in your spare time (in which case you are probably single or soon will be), then you can see that it'll take you the best part of two years just to do the shell. If you know this in advance then you stand a better chance of seeing the job through with as much enthusiasm as you had at the start!
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That estimate of 900 hours is probably quite close to the truth. I am almost embarrassed at the disproportionate amounts of time I have already spent. The interior is probably sitting at 200 hours alone. I couldn't afford to sandblast the shell so have been hand sanding back to bare metal. The underside of the dash board almost broke me. There are so many difficult to get to nooks and crannies. I have blown two coats of epoxy primer and still have one more primers coat and then the top coat. Each requiring me to get in and sand the entire surface from scratch.
The engine bay wasn't far behind. I still have to pull the sub frame out and repeat the paint process for the under side surfaces.
I have been working on ali soft top cover in the last two days. I started off thinking it would be a quick distraction from the sanding but ended up taking almost three full days to 'get right'. Ended up using paint stripper as I do want to take sand paper near the ali. It had about four coats of paint which took ages to get off.
Then discovered that there was a couple of dents bogged over where someone had dropped the hard top at some point. The dents wern't bad and had been hidden well with the body filler but because I had used paint stripper which had soaked the filler I had to remove it and start again from scratch. Almost pulled my hair out. I have never been that good at icing cakes. About seven skim coats latter I think I have nailed it. Probably would have taken a skilled panel beater 10 minutes.
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Andy,
Incredible ... you have taken it all the way ... looks amazing. During most exhaustive long-term projects (in life & work in general) many of us hit this wall ... some know they will hit it and actually put together a packet before starting the project and expect to open this packet when they hit the wall ... the packet contains items of inspiration that made one want to take this on in the first place and usually a letter of encouragement to oneself.
You need to find why you took it on ... and this will get you over the hump. A few of us were just at the Essen Classic Car Event in Germany this weekend and seeing pristine cars is incredibly inspiring if one is in the restoration process. It may help to refuel your drive by seeing some really nicely done cars. A real shot in the arm.
At least your findings are surprises in difficulty or complexity and not surprises of the extreme rusty kind ... you are way ahead of many.
Best of luck and continue sharing ... it will help us and yourself ... great photos.
Thanks for the compliments. I envy the hell out of you for being able to attend events in Germany. I can only but imagine. Would love to get over once in my life and check out the factory.
A big part of my feelings about the car at the moment are to do with missing out on the 50th celebrations. I really stuffed up and thought that 5 months would be long enough. I lost my job before xmas so am pretty much working on the car full time for the past 3 months. If I had a solid income I would probably do things differently (like getting the shell blasted rather than finger sanding it). Looking at the progress its really frustrating on progress.
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Never take a car apart unless you have both the time and money to see it through. You're much better off driving it and doing a little bit at a time or one project each winter than never driving it for years.
The further you go back in production the more difficult the restoration. Think 540K, 300Sc, 300SL, 190SL, 113, 107...........
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900 hours? ::)
Try 22 years...I rolled up to my SL in 1991 and had a cool Gin & Tonic with seller & his wife at his posh NYC Beekman Place Penthouse
The two happiest days in a 113 SL owners life are when he buys it and when he runs out of money.
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Never take a car apart unless you have both the time and money to see it through. You're much better off driving it and doing a little bit at a time or one project each winter than never driving it for years.
The further you go back in production the more difficult the restoration. Think 540K, 300Sc, 300SL, 190SL, 113, 107...........
Dr Benz, I am definitely not going to give up. I have given myself another 6 months to get it back together bringing total restoration time to 11 months. I disagree with the money aspect as it depends on your restoration philosophy. I am definitely not a buy it out of the packet sort of restorer. By that I mean before I simply go and order the factory part I will always (within reason) give fixing the old or worn part a go. I suppose this is where the time soak goes.
A good example of this is the indicator stalk on the 230. When I got the car it just wouldn't hold its indent. I stripped the unit apart and found that the leading face was worn. Carefully I welded a bead onto the worn area and used a couple of very fine files to reproduce the original shape. I probably isn't perfect but now functions ok. A new one was 600US which I just couldn't afford
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900 hours? ::)
Try 22 years...I rolled up to my SL in 1991 and had a cool Gin & Tonic with seller & his wife at his posh NYC Beekman Place Penthouse
The two happiest days in a 113 SL owners life are when he buys it and when he runs out of money.
Hi Kayvan,
If I take 22 years my wife will leave me taking half of all my toys including the pagoda. Probably the biggest incentive to get it finished :D
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Based on level of work ur doing.........its going to be immaculate!
That collor is very unique too
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Based on level of work ur doing.........its going to be immaculate!
That collor is very unique too
Just a tidy runner. None of the cars I have done have ever been show cars. Just get them as far back to original as I possibly can within my skill set. There are a few guys here in New Zealand that produce incredible world class restorations that make mine look stupid. Take a look at this guy. He just finished a beautiful early 230sl which won all sorts of awards (see photo) and he is also currently restoring one of only 20 or so aluminum gull wings. Take a look at his site http://www.lloydmarx.co.nz/
All I have done is tried to copy what these guys do. I am sure the work I do seems very amateur to them!
The color of my car is a huge sticking point as well. It was originally MB519G light red. The previous owner has painted it a light non factory gold color. Problem is I really like the color. Sort of suits the car. I had decided to keep it and started buying carpet and interior bits and pieces to suit but have since sort of decided that I want a factory shade. Its a real pity as the gold with the light interior looks really nice.
I am tending on either putting it back to original or painting it 180g silver gray and keeping the light interior. I have only seen this combination once and don't think it would have been on Mercedes 'recommended' list Take a look at the last picture and let me know your thoughts.
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Gold, bronze, coppers
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kayvan007/April9201302?authkey=Gv1sRgCIby3f--7vrNCQ&feat=email#slideshow/5865598664851814066
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kayvan007/April9201302?authkey=Gv1sRgCIby3f--7vrNCQ&feat=email#slideshow/5866356846726310898
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kayvan007/April9201302?authkey=Gv1sRgCIby3f--7vrNCQ&feat=email#slideshow/5866356888095027234
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Gold, bronze, coppers
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kayvan007/April9201302?authkey=Gv1sRgCIby3f--7vrNCQ&feat=email#slideshow/5865598664851814066
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kayvan007/April9201302?authkey=Gv1sRgCIby3f--7vrNCQ&feat=email#slideshow/5866356846726310898
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kayvan007/April9201302?authkey=Gv1sRgCIby3f--7vrNCQ&feat=email#slideshow/5866356888095027234
I love that first shot and have never seen it before. Added to my collection. Thanks. Its quite close to the scheme I wanted. I wonder what the color code is. Could be Sandy Beige???
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Another example of the unexpected issues these cars can throw at the uninitiated restorer. When I took my doors off I noticed a previous repair had been done to the door frame around the lower hinge where the frame had cracked. I didn't think anything more of it until I took the hinges off ready to strip the door jams of paint. All the hinges were stiff with the bottom two being almost seized. On closer inspection the hinge pin in the same door that had been repaired had been sheared in half. Obviously the hinges have never been lubricated since the factory with at least 3 layers of paint in the grease port. The cracked door frame and broken hinge were obviously a result of the hinge seizing and one of the past owners swinging on the door to try and 'free' the problem. The issue here is that the first of the 230's bore a very unique and different lubrication system that was only carried on for a year or so before Mercedes abandoned it. I tried to source a new hinge but tried as I might couldn't track down either a second hand or new item. The only solution was to manufacture a one off pin. Its not just a standard pin but a center drilled rod with a helix grove machined around it diameter to deliver grease down the pin. Also a small cross drilled hole to deliver the grease to the helix had to be machined. Just another example of the additional quirks of these cars.
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Had my 280SL 11 years now. Was in a slow restoration for 9 of those years, whereas I still have a driver to drive each of those years in the spring/summer. All my restoration was during the winter months. Each year, I would select an area in the car to restore, ie. engine, interior, paint, chassis, wheels, tires, etc. The last thing I did was exhaust system. Had to decide if I was to go with the original MB system or the aftermarket SS systems. I now show this car in AACA meets, which look for originality, so you guessed it, I went with MB parts. In fact over the course of the 9 years, all my parts were MB parts. I name my SL "BCW" this stands for Booze and Cheap Women. When people ask me where has ALL my money gone, I say booze and cheap women. Little do they know. You know to this day, I have not counted up my receipts, I'm afraid to.
Anyway, just think of the restoration process as a trip thru life, with many pitfalls. Hey, but think of all the stories you can tell when the restoration is complete. I now never run out of words at a car show when someone comes up to me and asks me how difficult was it to restore.
Bob
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Hey Bob,
I would love to see some pics of your restoration. Sounds as if you have poured you soul into it.
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I actually think the DB180 silver with the beige interior is rather cool, but would probably go for a darker metallic grey if possible - perhaps 178H (medium grey) or 172G (anthracite) :-)
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Spent the last three weeks working on the soft top well and boot/trunk. What a job. Stripped off all the factory tar matting which takes quite a while. Then used chemical strippers to take off the paint. I have used chemicals on the entire body as I have had nasty experiences with sand/media blasting. Definitely the chemicals are the hard way to go but as I am in my own garage its the only option. The stripping alone took 4 solid days. Getting into all the nooks and crannies is a nightmare. The boot was especially arduous as you have to deal with all the fumes in a very enclosed space. Then a quick sand with 320grit and liberal doses of a rust converter/zinc coating agent. Finally 2 good coats of a two pot epoxy primer with a rust inhibitor built in. This was a bit of a nightmare as well. Quite a bit of time spent was curled up in the boot spraying, scraping and sanding Dare say it now has ten fold the rust protection it left the factory with. Stripping the car back to bare metal by hand has given me quite an insight into exactly why these puppies rusted so badly. The factory paint seemed to be quite thin in places with just a top coat over the panel protection coatings.
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Decided that I wanted to put these features back on the car before painting. Man what a nightmare. All in all took over 12 hours to get a decent result. Watched a few you tube videos on leading and decided to give it a go. I didn't know exactly what profile to shoot for but think the it should be the same profile as the matching panel line on the side of the guard. Looked at dozens of photos on the web of different factory notches but none were detailed enough to give 100% certainty. If anyone has original notches I would really appreciate close up's with some accurate measurements to confirm my suspicions. I will post some more photos when I finish up and have sanded back with 800 grit sandpaper and primed. Will hang off painting for a couple of days to see if any of you guys can confirm my assumptions.
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They vary a lot. The main thing is for you to offer up your headlight chrome to get the notch to line up with it and to match the contours.
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I think I have the alignment spot on. I would love any of you with the original notches to post some photos :)
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Looking back at my purchase photos and wondering what the hell I am doing. Attached photo the night I got the car 9 months ago. Car is a few days from finishing the final paint prep. Will post some pics of the prepared shell if anyone is interested. Still not 100 percent sure of my color choice. White, Silver or Gold???????
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Post the pics, there will be a lot of interest here :)
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After agreeing a price with the painter I transported the 230 to his shop only for him to insist that the price didn't include blocking down the car. So have been making the pilgrimage in each day and also doing that job myself. A bit nervous as I am not a painter and dont really have too much experience with blocking. The finish will depend on if I have got it right or not. Time will tell I guess.
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Very nice to see the continuing progress ... always a pain when an agreement with a shop gets a bend it (blocking). Did you decide on the color? Obviously its very personal ... I am clearly partial to silver after seeing one of our member's car in pristine condition at the Euro Event in Belgium last September ... I believe it had recently been repainted.
best
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I have decided on MB180 silver gray with parchment interior. Very unusual and probably would have been frowned on by the boffins at the factory.
I have 6 litres of it sitting in the garage so am now committed. I did a contra deal with the paint supplier and designed him a web site in exchange for all the wet materials required for the car.
Very nice to see the continuing progress ... always a pain when an agreement with a shop gets a bend it (blocking). Did you decide on the color? Obviously its very personal ... I am clearly partial to silver after seeing one of our member's car in pristine condition at the Euro Event in Belgium last September ... I believe it had recently been repainted.
best
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Andy,
About blocking, I wouldn't worry too much about it, if you have done any work on your car and are not the type to rush things you can do it, remember to use long solid flat blocks (specially on the doors) a good squeegee, 2500/3000 grit paper and lots of water, I bet within a couple of days you'll be done, at the end your arms and shoulders will be done too. ;D but when it's completed and polished it's most rewarding.
I've done a few complete projects and I'm about to do my own 250, hopefully it will be done in a few weeks.
Cheers
Shaun
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In the final stages of painting and under the intense lights in the booth a few 'issues' on the bonnet were noticed. Not what I needed. Almost every bonnet I have seen on unrestored car has bubbling paintwork on the bonnet for one reason or another. I was a bit worried that the problem was on the surface of the aluminum rather than an an issue with the paint so I made the call to pull the entire bonnet back to bare metal. I turned out to be a good decision as all the bubbling was corrosion between the factory primer and the base aluminum. Will give the bonnet one last scotch tomorrow morning and hit it with some 2k epoxy etch primer. With Aluminum you need to paint within two hours of removing the oxidization or it will return and cause the same issues. Should sort the issue once and for all! Total prep time for the strip was 4 hours. I used a total of 2 litres of paint stripper, a cup of thinners, half a cup of wax and grease remover and two scotch pads.
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Progress pic. Interior now sporting a fresh coat of MB180. Really happy I went to the trouble of getting the interior right. Absolute nightmare cleaning and sanding up into all the tight corners under the dash.
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You're doing a fantastic job Andy!
Greetings: Ger.
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Cheers. Just hope I get an ok result and do this little car the justice it deserves. Cant afford to give it to the experts so am sure some of it will be sub par.
You're doing a fantastic job Andy!
Greetings: Ger.
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Nice color choice ... this will be immaculate. Thanks for the Play by Play. After this restoration you may be moonlighting in Pagoda Restoration Business ;D
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Cheers Kampala, re the suggestion of going into the restoration business... I think I would be looking for another wife if I did that. I have promised that this is the very last one.
Nice color choice ... this will be immaculate. Thanks for the Play by Play. After this restoration you may be moonlighting in Pagoda Restoration Business ;D
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Starting to come together. Engine Bay, door interior and door jams all now have the final paint applied. Cant wait till I cart the shiny shell home and put it back in the garage. Should be another 3-4 days of work.
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Very impressive, looking good.
Should there be an inspection panel on the right side of the transmission tunnel?
Or is that only on automatic cars? :-\
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I know what your talking about but this early little 230 doesnt have one. Must be a latter modification.
Very impressive, looking good.
Should there be an inspection panel on the right side of the transmission tunnel?
Or is that only on automatic cars? :-\
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Has anyone encountered issues with factory B pillar lead during restoration. I used a 'professional' panel beater to help with some of the structural rust removal. When I was not around he encountered the factory lead on the B pillar which he proceeded to melt out into a pool on the floor without first discussing the ramifications with me. I didn't think much about it until 4 day ago when I went to mount my door in my well detailed, paint finished shell. The striker plate was 5mm from where it should have been in relation to the door catch pin. Additional striker plate shim simply wouldn't cut the mustard. It would seem that the with the front and rear guard being welded in place at the factory the only adjustment to sort out this issue and door to guard gap issues is the use of lead on the B pillar. I spent a great deal of time researching leading and modern bog technologies and finally decided that the ease of application and durability of the modern steel impregnated body fillers like Nu Tech would be a better replacement than lead. I took everything back to bare metal and then put down a coat of epoxy 2k primer and started the very slow task of building up the B pillar. The panel gap issues were quite easy to solve with a thin smear of filler. The issue of the door striker was an absolute nightmare to sort. The angle this plate needs to sit on seems to be critical. It has taken a good two days working on the striker. I have it sorted now. Just wondering if anyone has hit this issues before and how they solved it. Will post some photos if anyone is interested. Last issue now sorted before final exterior blocking and painting can be done.
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Yes would like to see the photos.
Cheers
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I used lead to adjust the door gap. There is no filler or lead under the striker plate. Instead, there is a 1.5 mm shim plate on the right side - the driver's side needed nothing.
- Petri
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How do you know there was no lead under the shim and paint. Looking at the photo I can see where the lead has been loaded at the base of the pillar. On mine it was applied right up the face all the way to the top. With all the lead melted out there was absolutely no chance of the striker plate hitting the mating pin correctly. The tell tale giveaway is to remove the striker plate and carefully look at the holes cut in the pillar for the bolts to go through. I could see the lead piled up at least 2-3mm under the plate. The pillar also bore the original factory paint (and all the coat subsequent owners applied) so I know it must have been applied at the factory.
The photo you have posted looks as if it shows the lead at the base of the pillar where you have taken off the paint. Its not that obvious unless you apply heat!
Has anyone else had to deal with this issue. Perhaps because mine was such an early 230 that the factory hadn't quite got the jigs set up and used more lead to sort out production 'teething' issues. I am picking after several years of production things would have been fine tuned and these type of tweaks would have been minimized.
I used lead to adjust the door gap. There is no filler or lead under the striker plate. Instead, there is a 1.5 mm shim plate on the right side - the driver's side needed nothing.
- Petri
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The lead at the lower corner was applied by myself.
I know that there is no lead under the striker plate because you can see (and measure) the thickness of the sheet metal when the striker plate is off.
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Looking at the paint on your pillar the guard has never been off either so must be factory. What was the original color of your car? Thanks for the photo by the way. Really helpful trying to understand my current issues.
[author=star63 link=topic=18284.msg131540#msg131540 date=1373747637]
The lead at the lower corner was applied by myself.
I know that there is no lead under the striker plate because you can see (and measure) the thickness of the sheet metal when the striker plate is off.
[/quote]
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My car has been repainted more than once. The original color was G172. It was recently painted with 396. I'm currently putting it together after a 4-year "restoration".
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Have you been doing all the work yourself? Any idea of how many hours have been tied up to the point where you are putting things back together? I have not been working for the past 6 months and have been doing more than 40 hours a week on average and am sitting at around 1000 hours just about ready for final paint. Its twice what I had anticipated. I am interested in how many hours it will take to reassemble as well. I still have most of the bits going back in the car to restore/refurb. I am thinking another 500 but that might be a bit optimistic.
My car has been repainted more than once. The original color was G172. It was recently painted with 396. I'm currently putting it together after a 4-year "restoration".
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Yes, I've done everything myself except the paint work, chroming and zink plating. When I bought this car in 2009 it was claimed to be "absolutely rust free". It sure looked nice but was actually very rusty when investicated deeper :(.
I ended up repairing or replacing all the floor pieces (including the trunk), sills, most of the cross beams, front fenders, inner front fenders with stiffeners, rear quarter panels, front piece etc.
At the moment, I'm upholstering the dash.
I don't have any log of my hours spent. 1500 hours might be close. I thought that the reassembly would be done in a couple of weeks but it really seems to take time to fit all the pieces properly.
I still have a few weeks left before the European anniversary event... 8)
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Sounds as if you have been through the mill. Would love to see some photos of your journey. Can certainly appreciate the effort you have no doubt been too, especially if you have been doing this on top of your day job. Certainly have a healthy respect for anyone who is capable of doing this. Am interested to know if you would have ever started if you knew how much effort it would be. I have been constantly pondering this over the past couple of months. Am sure when the car is complete all the pain will be forgotten... kind of like child birth :D
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Hi Andy,
amazing story and thanks for telling it in detail. It's inspiring to see all your hard work.
I have a quick question that I should have asked months ago. You did most of the work in your garage and you used a lot of chemicals. So what did you do with all the nasty stuff that didn't stick to the car? Did you let it go down the drain? Everyone's so worried about "being green" these days. I hesitate even to try and wash the greasy icky stuff away from underneath my 230SL because I don't want the dirty water running down my driveway and into the street and down the sewer.
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I live out in a pristine rural setting and do care a lot about the environment. In fact we drink the water from underneath our house via a drilled bore so letting toxins seep into the soil isn't an option. I have kitted the garage with two tellus gs80 industrial vacuums. Any dust is swept up into a pile and then sucked into this system. Also I go through mountains of rags which are used to mop up any thing that is wet like degreaser, solvents, etc. I bag up all the waste and take it down to a recycle centre who have a collection for toxic or non environmentally friendly waste. I am averaging one large waste sack every week bare minimum. It has actually blown me away how much this little car generates.
Hi Andy,
amazing story and thanks for telling it in detail. It's inspiring to see all your hard work.
I have a quick question that I should have asked months ago. You did most of the work in your garage and you used a lot of chemicals. So what did you do with all the nasty stuff that didn't stick to the car? Did you let it go down the drain? Everyone's so worried about "being green" these days. I hesitate even to try and wash the greasy icky stuff away from underneath my 230SL because I don't want the dirty water running down my driveway and into the street and down the sewer.
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After running out of cash to finish the 230sl I tried to sell my 280se. I have 3 W108's so I figured this one would hurt the least. The market in NZ just didn't supply me a buyer for the price I was prepared to let it go for. I very reluctantly put my 2002tii up for sale with a very high reserve. The response was phenomenal and as a result the new owner is picking it up tonight. As they say the less doors a car has the more its worth.
Very mixed emotions as I know I will have a very hard time finding another should I realize I have made a terrible mistake. This little car is soooooo fun to drive and puts a huge smile on my face where ever I take it. As a kid all I ever wanted was a 2002tii. Took me till I was 40 to realize the dream.
Its taken me several years to 'sort out' and has taught me a lot about mechanical fuel injection a long time before I started working on the mercedes equivalent. For that I am eternally grateful to the little fella. I am just hoping when the 230sl is back together that I will experience the same attachment and not look back with regret for the sacrifice I have just made. Almost like a death in the family! Have any of you guys ever been in a similar situation. Would love to here you stories.
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You cannot replace the 2002 with a 280sl.
They are so different in terms of fun factor but are both fun. In my 2002 I would slalomn the car, drift it sideways and just be a hooligan sometimes. In my 280sl I feel the urge to be a hooligan but I just have not been able to bring myself to that level for fear of seriously hurting my pocket book. Is the 280sl more fun than the 2002? - not really more fun but it is a convertable and is just a more grown up car. it is a whole lot more satisfying though. Instead of going for a wild ride and giggling the whole way I just have this sense of "confident calm" with a big grin on my face when driving the 280sl.
I never had a Tii but had two round tail light models - 1970 and 71 that I drove until my wife demanded that I get a car with airconditioning and was baby seat appropriate.
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The deal has been done. I now might be able to afford some new sunvisors for the 230..... just
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Hi Andy,
I'd like to give a brief answer to your question about the car being a "member of the family." Before I bought my 230SL, my father-in-law had a 1960 190D "Ponton" in his garage. He bought it new, drove it through 2 tours of duty in Germany and across Canada a couple times, and then parked it in his garage around 1974. I came on the scene in 1975 and had only ever seen it myself under a pile of garage junk. So when I prevailed upon him to sell it in 2010, it was like losing a member of the family for him. The good news is that I think he realized he had to let the old heap go some time, and I didn't hear him or any of the other members of the family complain. Happy ending, I guess.
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Difference is that my tii is fully restored, rare rhd, highly desirable and very hard to replace should I decide I have made a poor decision. A bit like RHD pagodas in New Zealand, bmw 2002's only very rarely come up for sale. Perhaps one a year if your lucky. Not like in the states where you could choose amongst any of 10 good examples on ebay on any day of the year.
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Spent a good 2 days over the weekend getting the door gaps as good as I possibly can. Takes dozens of small adjustments on the hinges to get it just right.
Sitting around today waiting for the paint booth to become available so decided to work on all the smaller bits and pieces that needed texture coating and final 2k high build primer before final top colour coat.
Even this small stuff soaks the time. Took everything back to bare metal and then the usual epoxy primer. These bits have taken 8 hours to this stage. Will put the final paint on tomorrow. Hopefully have pictures of final painted shell for you guys in a few days. Hopefully I have done some justice to the old girl.
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After running out of cash to finish the 230sl I tried to sell my 280se. I have 3 W108's so I figured this one would hurt the least. The market in NZ just didn't supply me a buyer for the price I was prepared to let it go for. I very reluctantly put my 2002tii up for sale with a very high reserve. The response was phenomenal and as a result the new owner is picking it up tonight. As they say the less doors a car has the more its worth.
Very mixed emotions as I know I will have a very hard time finding another should I realize I have made a terrible mistake. This little car is soooooo fun to drive and puts a huge smile on my face where ever I take it. As a kid all I ever wanted was a 2002tii. Took me till I was 40 to realize the dream.
Its taken me several years to 'sort out' and has taught me a lot about mechanical fuel injection a long time before I started working on the mercedes equivalent. For that I am eternally grateful to the little fella. I am just hoping when the 230sl is back together that I will experience the same attachment and not look back with regret for the sacrifice I have just made. Almost like a death in the family! Have any of you guys ever been in a similar situation. Would love to here you stories.
I've had many cars. The only one I really regret selling is my '72 Inca Orange 2002 with Cromodora wheels. The second one I sometimes regret having sold is my pristine 6.3. But way less than the 2002.
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Three very long days and the shell has now received the last of the silver. I am fairly happy with the result. Still a few imperfections that only surfaced after the paint went down. Annoying that they could have been addressed quite easily in the blocking stage. I ended up doing all the preparation, blocking, final rubbing, masking and final tack off and left the outside top coats to the painter. In total 220 hours at the painters work place. To be perfectly honest I felt way out of my comfort zone for most of the process and kind of regret being too tight to pay the money for a professional job. I really did learn a lot along the way but wish I had all the newly acquired knowledge before I started!
Finally get the shell back in the garage after the final polish tomorrow. Still have to blow the final coats on the bonnet and boot lid which might take another week or so but at least I can get to work on stripping out the front and rear sub frames for restoration. Compared to the body work this should be a piece of cake.
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Great work, looking good. :)
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Car now home in my garage and I can get on with finishing it off. Started with fitting up the door rubbers. I ordered genuine mercedes parts but when I went to pick them up to my disgust they were very horrible aftermarket knock offs. Even from 10 feet I clocked them. Picking them up made me feel even worse. They had the consistency of those snake lolly confectionery you give to your kids. Almost a gooey consistency. I ran with them but further to my disgust when I got home they just didn't fit. Along the bottom of the door the length was about an inch to long and the notches to allow access to the lower trim moulding nuts were hand cut and in the wrong place all together. Take a look at the photos. I think they had been made in some horrible sweat shop in the guts of a third world country. I quickly sent them back. Has anyone had the same issues or was I just incredibly unlucky.
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Started the final repaint of satin black in the boot and soft top hatch today. Difficult area to get in and get a nice consistent coat going. Going quite well but having issues with over spray puffing back from in the trunk all over the main floor. Had to stop clean and re prep the main floor and continue.
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A bit late now but it's better to do the inside black bits first!
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Couldn't resist. Just had to put a few of the 'critical' parts back on. Probably should have started in the engine bay and worked my way outward but damn it don't those badges shine.
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Out comes the filthy old front sub frame. I dont have a spring compressor at the moment so releasing the springs will be a bit hairy. Tackle that in the morning.
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There has to be a very good reason that I cannot see.
Why did you not undertake all this work before painting ?
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Hi Eric, I didn't take the sub frame out before painting because I don't have a jig to put the frame on. If you were doing this all the time in a restoration shop you could justify the time, expense and space required to have a jig lying about. I did think long and hard about making one before the paint process started. I needed to be able to roll the shell onto a tow truck and around the paint shop so the easiest solution was to leave the rolling chassis in tact. It really wont end up costing that much more extra time. The engine bay only needs a slight puff around the mounting points. Can apply the base and clear at home. I have spent a massive amount of time on my back working the underside of the car as well, cleaning and replacing both texture coat and factory seam lines and over coating with epoxy under coat. Once the rear frame is out (next weeks job) I will be finishing off the entire underside and apply the final paint. So it has been a bit of a pain in the ass having to work around it. Guess at the end of the day my methods are unorthodox and a little more costly in terms of time and money but I am hoping the result will be just as good. This isn't my profession and I also make up a lot of stuff along the way, some of it good and some bad. Hopefully the sub frame will be back in the car in a week. I have done one for my W108 and know the drill.
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Bit of a drama pulling apart the sub frame. There are 8 washers spot welded to the bottom of the sub frame which the main wishbone pivot arms bolt to. I assume that they are there to give additional support to the mount. When I pulled off one side half the washers peeled away with pivot arm. I swore quite a bit thinking of the additional pain I would have to endure to re-engineer. After measuring the washers thickness and inside diameter I took off to try and source some more. It would appear they are totally bespoke to the application and meant that I would be further modifying the new washers to suit before I even tackled the problem of how to weld them up. Went back to the drawing board and did some research in EPG and discovered that the 113 and 108's both share exactly the same sub frame. I breathed a very deep sigh of relief as I have access to an abundance of 108 parts. Off the hook!!
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Batch of parts ready to go off to get powder coated. One stop shop, bead blast and coating. I could get them all bead blasted and paint them with two pot epoxy paint but have decided to give myself a treat and get some of the grunt work outsourced. What a luxury!! Next job, a couple of days on a bead blaster and wire wheel getting parts ready for gold and zinc electroplating. Not looking forward to this job. Long arduous and dusty.
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Does anyone know definitively what color the early 230 exhaust manifolds were. When I first brought the car I thought that manifolds were aftermarket but now I believe the very early 230s had the extractors (see photo above) . They look very amateur and I am still surprised Mercedes ran with them. I am interested to know if they ran for the entire run of 230's or if they were replaced with the more common cast iron versions. If they are indeed factory I am impressed with how long they have lasted. Still quite good condition. I am going to have them coated in High temp ceramic material. Just trying to suss out what color to go with. Any help appreciated.
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Andy,
Here is a photo of mine prior to fitting the inlet manifold. They have been peened.
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My early headers have a fine metallic coating, semi-crystalline like a light galvanizing.
I can post a photo soon.
The factory headers were discontinued late 1965 and replaced with the short cast manifolds.
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Hey Dave, thanks for that. Would appreciate a photo of yours to see if they are identical to mine. Garry what year is your car? I notice the rocker cover has the sand cast finish. I really really want to get my hands on one of these to complete the 'original' look. Cant find one anywhere. Rocking horse ****! Mine has been replaced with a latter model smooth cast cover. I have a friend with one of the sand cast covers and he has had a few issues with it sealing well. The mating surfaces didn't seem quite as well designed as the smooth version. Perhaps this issue prompted owners of early 230's to replace.
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I have been using a period Mercedes factory spring compressor to decompose the sub frame. This tool is, in my humble opinion, as much a piece of art as the car is in its own right. Superbly designed by a master tool maker. You really have to hold it in your hands to get a full appreciation of the quality. I think it would last a life time even if it were used ever day. Most things Mercedes made were totally over engineered! Would be interested to see photos of any other factory tools anyone else has lying about.
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Andy,
I only know enough to be dangerous on this point, but...
I am currently restoring a MK2 Jaguar. I powder coated the front suspension coil springs. A number of people told me that doing so was a big mistake. It seems that taking springs to 400 degrees or over negatively affects the spring. I am just suggesting some caution and perhaps checking this out some more before proceeding.
Lin
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Mine is September '65
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Bob, I like the way you think when you tell people "BCW" :) I have to remember that :)
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Hi Lin, the powder coating process only heats the springs to around 70 degrees so will not effect the spring tempering or spring rate. The first time I coated springs I went to a great deal of trouble to research this process and actually stood by and watched while they coated my parts. Depending on the type of powder coating the temp will vary. Some high performance coating such as what I am just about to put on my manifolds will be heated to a higher temp of around 200 but all the cosmetic coatings should be applied at much lower temps. The coater I use has an infrared booth which further reduces the temps.
The ovens at my coater were all computer controlled reached exactly the designated temp. Coincidentally this is a topic I know well and find really interesting. By trade I am a software engineer and have worked for a heat treatment company here in NZ writing software to control a dozen or so large industrial furnaces. Over the years I have worked closely with some of the top metallurgists in NZ and have picked up quite a bit of knowledge on the topic. It come in really handy when I have needed it. Mainly done it for strengthening and stress relief of welds to stop fatigue cracking. Check the web site out if your interested, from an engineering perspective a really interesting place. They have helped me immensely over the years with various bits and pieces. http://www.safegroup.co.nz/
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Andy,
Thanks for your response and for my continued education. I have to pick up some Jag parts at my powder coater soon, so I will ask about his maximum temperature. I am certainly relieved to learn what you had to share. I am now on my third, and probably getting into a fourth hobbyist restoration. It is amazing what I have learned through this hobby over the years. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and the web site. I really appreciate your restoration thread and all the work that you have done yourself. I try to do as much myself as possible, although, I am not a painter.
Thanks again and best regards.
Lin
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Hi Lin, I love to share stuff I know about and soak up other people experience as well. I was chatting with Barry the owner of South Auckland Forgings this morning and discussing with him what I had said on the forum just to be sure I was sending you in the right direction. He has been in the heat treatment industry all his life and what he doesn't know isn't worth worrying about. I asked him again about springs and what tempreature would start to have and impact. He is adamant that until you get steel to at least 400 your not touching any of its performance characteristics. He was saying that the material the spring is made from is by far the most determanant factor of how the spring will perform. I am going to run with his recomendation and get the springs powdercoated.
I was talking to him this morning as I am just about to cut down my steering column in order to fit power steering to the car. I dropped off a column to him previously for one of my other cars and asked him to cut and weld it. Without even discussing he did all this deep analysis on the shaft to determine the best and safest way to weld it up. They have a mass spectrometer which can analyse any carbon based steel as well as stainless. Check out his OTT fix. ->
Hi Burnsy. Please see my report below re the modifications to your steering column.
The existing hollow column of 18mm diameter was analysed as 0.07%C, 0.3%Mn. This indicates a soft deep-drawing mild steel. Prelininary hardness tests indicated an approximate Ultimate Tensile Strength (UTS) of 550 MPa. This result (high for this chemistry), together the low ductility exhibited during analysis, indicates extensive cold working during original manufacture.
The column was cut to required length, and an AISI 4140 high tensile Cr-Mo insert pushed into the column to join it together again. The insert had a flange in the middle of 18mm diameter, and it was around each side of this flange that the joining welds were made. The assembly was preheated to 200degC and welded using high tensile low hydrogen electrodes. Porosity was evident in some areas around this weld, and these areas were ground out then preheated and repaired using TIG process. The insert extends 100mm+ into each half of the column, and approx 80mm along each of these inserts legs and longitudinal slot was ground in the column, then welded up per the above procedure. The purpose of these welds was to assist in torque transfer through the insert rather than just the joining weld.
After all welds were finished the welded area was post-weld heat treated at 500degC. This was to relieve welding stresses, lower any hard areas in the weld, and change structure to tempered martensite.
During fairing-out the diameter of the welded joint was reduced from 18mm to a minimum (spot measurement) of 17.25mm. This is deemed not to have any detrimental affect on the strength of the assembly, as it occurs within a region fully supported by the high tensile core. It should be noted that the smallest diameter of the column at the point where the drive spline commences is 16.6mm.
Yours faithfully,
Barry Robinson
S.A.F.E Engineering
Ph ++64 9 2948437
Fax ++64 9 2948431
Cell 027 2864722
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Started ripping apart the donor car this afternoon. Dear old girl. In one way it seems a real pity picking its bones! The 113 seems to have lots of parts in common with the 108. Primarily brought the car for the power steering gear but it will no doubt have hundreds of bits and pieces that might come in handy. Got as far as draining the oil in the dark and pulling out the radiator. Need to get all the power steering bit and pieces off to the powder coaters. Not looking forward to getting out the steering box and hard lines on the bottom of the engine. If anyone needs any bits and pieces let me know.
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I found it hard to get adequate photos:
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There are a few of these early exhausts on ebay USA with photos showing some detail of the finish.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171088497641
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380687456350
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220950632654
Do you really think they look amateur?? Pretty nice welding. It seems they used cast pieces coming off the head, welded to the tubular steel pipes, welded to the flanges. Quite a complicated exercise.
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I have been using a period Mercedes factory spring compressor to decompose the sub frame. This tool is, in my humble opinion, as much a piece of art as the car is in its own right. Superbly designed by a master tool maker.
You do have a very nice tool sir.
But, err, how does it work? I'm only familiar with those that come in pairs and grip the springs externally with claws.
And the steering column job! Yeah, OTT and brilliant.
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But, err, how does it work? I'm only familiar with those that come in pairs and grip the springs externally with claws.
Holy carp! Do not use those spring compressors with the external claws, they are lethal.
The tool shown is a threaded telescope with keys at each end. Two plates have key-ways in them and these plates are inserted between coils in the spring and then the telescopic tool is inserted through the plates (through the middle of the spring) and then rotated 90° to lock the keys in place. The bottom of the telescopic tool has a hex machined in it with which you rotate the threaded inner section and thereby reduce the overall length of the tool and hence the length of the spring.
Simples!
Much, much safer than the external claw tool and Klann do a very nice version which I've been using for about 20 years without failure.
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It does sound safer with everything contained within the spring if there's a mishap.
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Dave, when you see it in action you would melt, especially if you have ever used external clamps. It makes the DIY clamps look stupid. The overall construction of the tool is phenomenal. Quite a strange fascination I know.
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Where do you find one? :)
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Think you either get lucky on ebay or know a retired mercedes trained mechanic. I took the former route.
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Dave, thanks for the photos of the extractors. The look very similar in construction to mine except obviously dont loop forward like the rhd version. Am picking I would have horrendous trouble replacing the ones on my car.
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Yep the RHD headers differ from the LHD as you say, and would be hard to replace (don't drop them). There are apparently also some accelerator linkages and bits & pieces that are specific to the header version cars.
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The old W108 gave up her power steering components today. She didn't let them go without a fight. Two stripped cap screws that needed to be drilled, and one ball joint so tight it broke the ball joint splitter! All in all not an easy job. Took 4 hours in total. Will purchase some repair kits and get the pump and the box resealed before painting. Also have to finish off shortening the steering shaft.
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I think I read somewhere that the Pagoda steering shaft being collapsible, it doesn't need to be shortened. There may be something to be done where it collapses, but no modification to the shaft itself. I don't remember where I read that, but it was on a forum where someone was also embarked in putting a power steering in a Pagoda and was to shorten the shaft before he discovered there was no need for it.
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Where do you find one? Smiley
Klann do a very nice version which I've been using for about 20 years without failure.
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I think I read somewhere that the Pagoda steering shaft being collapsible, it doesn't need to be shortened. There may be something to be done where it collapses, but no modification to the shaft itself. I don't remember where I read that, but it was on a forum where someone was also embarked in putting a power steering in a Pagoda and was to shorten the shaft before he discovered there was no need for it.
I just finished doing the conversion on mine, my car did not come with power steering either, after a couple of hours of struggle i was able to make it work, it had to be cut no other way to do it, the steering shaft has two notched lock settings even then i had to extend the notch to make it fit perfect.
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Guys, I am not certain about the 113 shafts but the W108's started life with a solid shaft in 1967. There were a couple of terrible frontal accidents where the solid shaft was forced into the cabin and speared the driver. I have read they even called it the 'spear effect'. Within one year they had redesigned it to a two piece collapsible shaft. At the steering wheel the shaft started off round but was extruded down to a box section 3/4 down the shaft toward the pedals. The second half of the shaft slipped into the box section with quite a tight tolerance. In an accident the two pieces simply slide over each other. If you are lucky enough to be doing a conversion on a car with this system and need to shorten it to take power steer, you simply give the short piece of square tube that fits up to the steering box a bit of a thump with a heavy hammer and it slides into the other section by an inch or two. I suppose you are shortening the travel on a safety item which isn't too flash but unless you have a critical frontal it probably will be just dandy and save you a whole swag of time and effort. One thing I am big on is saftey and think that if you ever undertake anything like this and it fails then someone could loose a life. I dont think welding is a good idea on a component like this unless you have a very high level of knowledge on how to produce a 'strong' weld that is equal in strength to what you have just cut. I have heard stories of people with limited abilities cutting and welding these shafts in their back yards. In New Zealand the law is quite clear on this as well. Any modifications to ANY steering or suspension components away from the manufactures design have to be certified by an engineer who understands the physics behind the modifications.
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Guys, would love some help on this one. Before I go head first into shortening my steering shaft I am a bit worried about a few things. The first is if I cock it up in any way how hard would it be to get another shaft. I have a left hand drive shaft available to me in the states but am wondering if its the same as my RHD version or if its an early or late one.
Second concern is that I have done all the measurements this afternoon and it looks as if I need to shave exactly 40mm off the shaft. This would push the coupling right up into the shroud that bolts to the inside of the car. I am really worried that it would make access really difficult. For a start you need to get a spanner onto the coupling clamp that holds it onto the spline. Secondly when in place and the pins are slipped into the mating steering box there are a couple of tiny clips that slide over the pins in order to prevent the coupling from coming apart. Even when they were away from the fire wall by 50mm they were little buggers to get your fingers into. What the hell will it be like now with as little as 5 to 10mm of finger gap? If anyone could shed some light I would be most appreciative. Someone must have done this or have removed a factory 230 system and seen exactly how its done.
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Another pic I wouldn't mind floating is a telescoping W108 shaft. The early 108's had a round shaft much the same as in my early 230sl. The were definitely not telescoping and had to be cut and welded. The latter ones changed to the pictured configuration and were square which made them easy to identify. Are the latter W113 telescoping shafts square/rectangular as well.
Also has anyone had the end of an early shaft re splined rather than having to resort to cutting and welding. I would prefer to go down this track if possible. Seems a cleaner solution.
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Yes, the coupling end up into the shroud. The way I did it was to keep the shroud loose up the steering column and fasten the coupling from inside the foot well. Then lower and fasten the shroud.
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Thanks GGR. Now you have pointed that out I feel stupid for not picking it. I thought the shroud was welded to the shaft and didn't move. The clamp should have been a giveaway. Next piece in the puzzle solved. All I need to figure out now is how to pull the shaft out of the column. The 108's are easy as its a single rod but this one must be in two pieces as its bent in the middle. Can you easily just pull out the low shaft somehow. If anyone can describe this to me I can take photos as I go for anyone else thats keen.
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To re-spline or cut... that is the question. Just come off the phone to my trusted engineer. I asked him which way he would go. He considered for about 3 milliseconds and told me it was my choice but if it were his shaft and was difficult to replace that he would definitely cut and weld. His thoughts were based around thousands of splines he has commissioned over the past 40 years amongst many which have gone wrong effectively destroying the job. So decision made shaft off to be 'properly' cut, insert made and a re weld. Interested in anyone who has gone down the re-spline track.
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Do you realize a 108 & 113 P/S droparms are different,and RH drive 113 P/S droparms are very very rare.
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Hey Lloyd, I didn't realize that. Thanks a million for pointing that out. Am interested to know the difference. Is one longer than the other? Can I not take the one off the old non power steer 113 box and swap it over to the 108 PS box? I wonder how Andru did his. I thought he just swapped an entire 108 box lock stock and barrel including the arm. Have you got any arms if I run into trouble? Cheers Andy
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Back to the books. Doesn't seem there is anything on paper between the 230sl and the 280se the pitman arm came from. The length and angles both seem the same. The only thing I can eyeball between them is the nut which hold the arm on seems to be larger with the Lloyd can you please let me know where I will go wrong if I use the 280se pitman arm. If anyone will know the difference it will be you. Cheers Andy
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Andy,
I have mine out of a 280se for my 67 250sl, the power steering arm is just right, what you should look is a match between the idler arm and the power steering arm , if the angles and the length of the arm are the same then you are good, this way the right and the left turn will result in same distance travel. make sure to set the power steering box in dead center position, lock it in then install it.
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Hey Shaun, I tend to agree with you. Lloyd is an expert on rhd 113's and restores full time so I am still interested to investigate what he is referring too. Perhaps there is some strange right hand drive peculiarity that he knows about through trial and error. The last thing I want to do is go ahead with the conversion and hit some barrier after the car is all back together. Attention to detail might be prudent in this situation. I am going to spend this morning taking some very careful measurements as you suggested and will post the results back latter in the day.
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Andy I have sent you a pm
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More frustration today. Lloyd has kindly pointed out the technical difficulties that I will encounter if I go ahead with the power steer conversion. Very subtle and easy to miss if your not paying a lot of attention.
The early 230's appear to be harder to convert and 'get right' than the latter 250's or 280's. They had a unique pitman steering box arm and matching idler arm. Actually it seems that most mercedes of the day have a matching set. The difference from set to set was the angle that the arms bend toward the ground.
I currently now have the pitman arm from a 280se W108 power steering unit and the original 230sl mechanical steering box matched idler arm. With the drag link connected you can see the obvious problem (thanks for putting me on the right track Lloyd).
Lloyd has indicated that the net result of going ahead with this combination is that you will never get your wheel alignment right as the outer links are traveling different distances due to the height variations in the pickup points.
I still don't have enough knowledge of the problem to understand the effect on the overall suspension setup. Looking at the angle of the drag link I now have an appreciation of how bad the situation is.
If you didn't have the engine out and were doing this conversion you would likely never notice the symptoms and probably plough on with the conversion totally oblivious. What I need to know is how much of an issue would it cause, and what are the long term symptoms and severity should I choose to forget my past 48 hours of learning. Sometimes the oblivious route is in hindsight total bliss!
I think the problem could be improved by either obtaining a different pitman arm with a reduced angle or conversely a different idler arm with a more acute angle. Lloyd has indicated that the correct arms are NLA at the factory so I am left trying to mix and match off other models to get the 'best' possible combination to level out the drag link. If anyone can help or add any more info to puzzle I would love to here. It would be good to get an exact list of factory parts that all work together to overcome this. Even a couple of possibilities ranging from best to worst.
I really dont want to cut my shaft until I sort this issues so its stopped me in my tracks. Chocolate fish to anyone that can suggest a cheap and easy solution ;D
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Did you try to fit your 230 steering box arm on the power steering one to keep the set matched? Size of the nut may be different, but not necessarily the splined area under it. Did you take both arms out of the steering boxes to compare?
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Hi GGR, I have only just today purchased a pitman arm puller. I will give that a crack but Lloyd has advised me that the splines on power steer boxes are different from mechanical boxes and cant be swapped. If you have tried any swaps that turned out to work well please let us know. I am after confirmed working techniques or part combinations. I will continue to plug away and post my results over the next couple of days. I am going to mount back up the original non PS box tomorrow and compare the angles with the PS box. Cheers Andy
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Hi GGR, I have only just today purchased a pitman arm puller. I will give that a crack but Lloyd has advised me that the splines on power steer boxes are different from mechanical boxes and cant be swapped. If you have tried any swaps that turned out to work well please let us know. I am after confirmed working techniques or part combinations. I will continue to plug away and post my results over the next couple of days. I am going to mount back up the original non PS box tomorrow and compare the angles with the PS box. Cheers Andy
Lloyd is right They are different.
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I have looked on EPC and this is what I found:
The pitman arm p/n on 230SLs RHD started as 111 463 22 01, common to chassis 113.042; 113.043 and 113.044, and was then replaced by 111 463 26 01, common to chassis 113.042; 113.043; 113.044 but also to 111.010; 111.012 and 111.014.
The idler arm (intermediate lever as per EPC denomination) p/n on 230 SLs RHD is 111 460 14 19 and is common to chassis 113,042; 113.043; early 113.044 but also to 108.012; 108.014; 108.015; early 108.016; 111.021; 111.023; 112.021 and 112.023.
This may help you find parts you need. However, I don't understand why common chassis are not the same for the pitman arm and the idler arm, unless fixing points on chassis are different relatively right to left compared to the Pagoda? It can also be that EPC in not giving an exhaustive information (I noted that for other parts) and that all these chassis are in fact compatible.
they do not seem to differentiate the pitman arm between manual and power steering. Replacement of part number seems to be chronological rather than linked to the type of steering.
I'm not sure if this helps or if it brings more confusion.
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Thanks GGR. It all is extremely confusing to me. It would be very easy if I could simply buy the right pitman arm but they are NLA. Now the confusion comes in knowing exactly what the next best combination for the car is. I have no doubt I will have to start sourcing new parts but before I do this I want to know exactly what the best combination is. Until the parts are on the car and you can measure everything up you wont know so unless you have done it before its total trial and error. Guys like Lloyd who do it for a living would have the luxury of having all sorts of spare parts lying around to mix and mingle and try all the different combinations to get the 'next best result'. Thanks a million for getting those part numbers for me though. I wish I had access to EPC would be a fantastic resource. The pages of the book I posted earlier are total gold. Factory spec manual that you can slip in your pocket.
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Hi Andy, how about getting South Aucklabd Foundry to look at the problem? As you say they are experts in forging and heat treatment so might be able to heat and change to the correct angle then anneal?
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Hi Rodger, really strange you should mention that as I have had them here this afternoon to look at the problem. You read my mind. I spent last night getting exact measurements on how far the power steering settings are from the factory mechanical box that the car came out of the factory with. I used a 'pinned' chalk line to get a datum on exactly where the factory setup was and then swapped out the box for the W108 280se factory box. Discovered that with the new power steer box from the 280se and the factory 230sl idler arm we are exactly 10mm low on the power steering pitman arm should be. I then used my new pitman arm puller and swapped over the 20sl mechanical pitman arm to the 280se power steering box. I thought they would have different splines but in the end turned out to be identical. So I gave it a crack. They both appeared to be almost identical when compared side by side once removed. This was confirmed when I bolted the new configuration into the car and got an almost identical 10mm offset. See photos for better visualization of what I am on about. So back to the drawing board. I have exhausted all my options in terms of parts I have available. So I called in the big guns. Barry from South Auckland Forgings has taken the pitman and idler arms away for analysis in the mass spectrometer. He is going to determine if they are cast iron or have been forged. If they are cast iron I am buggered but if they have been forged he can heat and bend them and then re heat treat to ensure they retain their original strength. Will keep you informed how I get on. I am still interested to talk to a suspension specialist to figure out if I leave it with the 10mm offset what problems I will end up with. If it reduces my tread life from 30,0000km to 20,000 I wouldn't give a monkeys. Another interesting observation is that even the factory mechanical setup seemed to have a slightly different height setup from left to right resulting in the drag link not being on the 100% level.
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Hi Andy, i can tell you right now that the part will not be cast iron. Cast iron is strong in static compression but weak in tension and cannot withstand sudden shock loadings, more likely to be a drop forging, heat treated afterwards i would guess. Barry is the right man for this. i had not appreciated how small the error is, also interesting that the origninal setup has the same built in "error". As you say experts in suspension geometry can probably predict what the outcome would be if you leave it.
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Rodger, am still keen to here from anyone who has seen the long term effects of making the change without correcting this problem. Surely someone out there has seen the consequential physical manifestations. Lloyd it would be really good if you could describe what you have seen.
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Barry has come back and the good news is that we can bend the steering arm if done properly. He is coming over tonight to see the component in place to determine how best to make the bend. For those interested this is his analysis and recomendations:
Hi Burnsy.
The steering arm is a forging, with a chemical composition conforming to AISI5130, a 0.3% Carbon, 1% Chrome alloy steel.
Hardness tests show it has been hardened and tempered to 270 BHN (Brinell Hardness). Depending upon the quenchant speed used by the manufacturer, I would estimate the manufacturer used a final temper temperature of approx. 550-590degC to achieve this hardness.
These results confirm what is usual practice for steering componentry of reliable quality.
It is perfectly possible to alter the shape of such components, something we have considerable experience in.
Usual practice is (after doing tests above to establish existing properties and temperature limits), to carefully heat the product in an accurate heat-treatment oven to min 30degC below manufacturers temper temperature (ie, in this case heat to max 520degC which is a barely-visible dull red in a very dark room).
The part can be pressed to desired new shape whilst at this temp and then allowed to cool.
It is most essential that after cooling the part is Stress-Relieved by re-heating to the same temp for minimum 1 hour per 25mm thickness, to relieve the stresses put in the material by 'warm' pressing.
This last step must not be missed out.
Finally we hardness test the part again to ensure minimal loss of hardness (and hence strength).
Barry Robinson
S.A.F.E Ltd
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Interesting research. You can raise or lower the idler arm by adjusting the height on the early example before you turn the nut down.
I seem to remember something about adding or removing a washer under the late idler arm depending on power steering or not.
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Dr Benz, to be honest I hadn't even considered that or looked closely a the idler setup. I had thought about altering that side by bending the idler but figured the height it was in relation to the outer link height would have been set perfectly at the factory and therefore I should leave as is and use as my datum.
I hadn't even pulled it apart as a result so didn't fully appreciate how it hung together. Got quite a shock when I went out and looked at my spare one. Quite an unusual setup with the rotation of the arm taken up on the internal thread of the pin. I can see why they moved the latter version as it makes more sense to have increased turning surface area of the entire bolt shank on a bush for increased wear resistance. In saying that the 40 year old example of the early setup I took from a W108 isn't showing to much sign of wear.
I understand what your getting at about the adjustment. It makes me a bit squeamish as you would be reducing the amount of thread the arms turns in. Two things about this probably need to be considered 1) will decrease the amount of material the pin is turning in which would increase wear and 2) would decrease the amount of thread actually holding the pin in.
In my case I need 10mm adjustment so I would need to reduce the amount of thread available on the pin from 20mm down to 10mm. I can understand if the factory intended a 1 or 2mm washers for 'fine tuning' but 10mm might be a different matter altogether. I am really interested in your thoughts on this one Dr Benz. Have you ever used the idler for adjustment and how far did you take it.
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All good questions but it may not matter that much. The heim joints in the steering linkage should allow for some misalignment and I wonder how critical this really is. I know it's best to have everything on an even plane as bump steer issues may result but I usually adjust everything so that the arm will allow full movement to the right without coming anywhere close to locking up. That would not be a very good thing if that were to happen!
I can't recall there being any washers on the early version and all they had was a grease seal above the arm. Looking through my dealers parts book confirms this. It appears that there was only one arm used on 230SL's. This arm with the pin attached can't fall out under normal running conditions. That small amount of height adjustment may not present any adverse driving symptoms at all - or maybe it does but most of it can be adjusted out during a front end alignment.
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My '62 W111 Coupe has the same relay arm system. The top nut has gotten loose by a few turns and the consequence was that alignment "opened" on the right wheel (my car is LHD) by quite a bit and the car was wandering on the road. I didn't realize immediately that nut had gotten loose so I readjusted alignment on the right. The car was still wandering and I traced it as being some play in the linkages. At first I thought it was the drag link but it was in fact the nut which was loose. I tightened it, play was gone, but I had to adjust alignment again.
By looking at the system, I don't see how the nut being loose by a little did induce play, as the shaft is turning inside some bushings that I had replaced.
The arm being lower did open the alignment by quite a bit (or was it as a result of the play?).
I also thought you could lower the relay arm a bit, but like you, I was wondering if thread was enough to allow for 10mm. In any case, if you go that route, you will have to make sure there is no play.
Like Dan I think that 10mm difference wouldn't affect the steering geometry very much. It will, but it may well stay within tolerances. The crooked drag link won't look that good though.
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Cheers fior looking up the parts book for me Dr Benz. Neither of the early setups I have here have anything but the grease seal and the crinkle washer. If I added a spacer I will then have two surfaces to seal as well. The only way the pin could fall out is if the internal thread stripped. I know this is extremely unliley but in therory by reducing the contacting thread surfaces by a half would double the possibility of failure.
I see exactly what you mean about ensuring you have 100% travel on the pin when you set it up. In essence as the arm is turned clockwise its essentially climbing itself upwards as it turn on the thread. If it got to the end of its travel it wouldn't be good. Another interesting thought is around the seal at the bottom. Does that mean that its sealing tolerance is constantly changing as well? Wouldn't it be interesting to a fly on the wall at the factory tech meeting where they decided to move away from this design.
In any event I think I will just keep on plugging away at my original idea of bending the arm. I had Barry up last night and he doesnt think it will be a dramma. He has taken the W108 arm with him to bend. I will preserve the original setup just in case I have to put it all back. I am also going to hold off cutting the shaft until I have the bent arm to fit up and compare.
Thanks again for your help Dr Benz :)
All good questions but it may not matter that much. The heim joints in the steering linkage should allow for some misalignment and I wonder how critical this really is. I know it's best to have everything on an even plane as bump steer issues may result but I usually adjust everything so that the arm will allow full movement to the right without coming anywhere close to locking up. That would not be a very good thing if that were to happen!
was a grease seal above the arm.I can't recall there being any washers on the early version and all they had Looking through my dealers parts book confirms this. It appears that there was only one arm used on 230SL's. This arm with the pin attached can't fall out under normal running conditions. That small amount of height adjustment may not present any adverse driving symptoms at all - or maybe it does but most of it can be adjusted out during a front end alignment.
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Thanks for your reply to GGR. I can understand with your scenario where the to top bolt came loose that the pin would no longer be tightly contained in the tube and could effectivley bounce up and down introducing the play that your referring to. That wouldn't be good. As Dr Benz suggested as long as I contained the slop with a spaces I might achieve what I am after but its just the saftey aspects I am worried about.
The drag link arm that can be seen in my photos is off the W108. I am using this one for the time being as Lloyd suggested they might not be interchangable. They seem identical but I havn't paid that much attention. I dont know how that one got that kink in it. Any length variation in the drag link can be compensated for in the adjustable ball joint in the outter suspension set up I am guessing.
Once again thanks for your input as well. It all is helping to add to the big picture.
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Thanks for your reply to GGR. I can understand with your scenario where the to top bolt came loose that the pin would no longer be tightly contained in the tube and could effectivley bounce up and down introducing the play that your referring to. That wouldn't be good. As Dr Benz suggested as long as I contained the slop with a spaces I might achieve what I am after but its just the saftey aspects I am worried about.
The drag link arm that can be seen in my photos is off the W108. I am using this one for the time being as Lloyd suggested they might not be interchangable. They seem identical but I havn't paid that much attention. I dont know how that one got that kink in it. Any length variation in the drag link can be compensated for in the adjustable ball joint in the outter suspension set up I am guessing.
Once again thanks for your input as well. It all is helping to add to the big picture.
Well, the nut did not come completely loose, just two turns or so.
Drags links are the same, p/n 110 460 02 05, common to many chassis of the w108, 109, 110, 111 and 112 families.
I think link length variations will affect the steering. The connection between the arms and the tie rods is following an arc, and depending on the position, angle is not the same. Therefore transmitted movement won't be the same, depending on angle. I think travel along these arcs are very much coordinated between left and right and the length of the drag link must have been quite precisely calculated. It may not affect much if we are talking of very small length differences.
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GGR, intersted to know how the nut came loose. Both the early version that I have came with a lock tab where the the top nut screws down hard on the lock tab which is then bent on two sides of the nut to prevent it from moving. I am interested to know if your setup had that tab or if it failed.
I aggree with you on the length of the drag link now that I think about. The difference in mine is probably because the 108 link is bent through some sort of damage. The only reason I am running with this is that I was told that the drag link was different from the W108 to the 113 and that the ball joint would not fit correctly into theW108 pitman arm. I now believe this is not the case after trying both arms on both drag links. I believe you are correct that the drag link part number is the same accross all models. Did you look that up in EPC?
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Yes. I looked on EPC. I first looked at the p/n on the 230SL and then used the search tool with that p/n which gave me all the chassis on which the same drag link is being used.
My nut does not have that locking system. I should look into fitting one.
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GGR, If you want the factory lock tab I can send it over to you. I have two of them. No problems at all.
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Thanks. This can't be an expensive item from the classic center. Won't be worth postage from NZ. I will follow up with you in case it is no longer available.
Thanks again
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Hi Andy, I am with you, bending the part and normalising will take you back to spot on suspension geometry according to your measurements. i would not shorten the design thread takeup from 20mm to 10mm to correct in any circumstance.
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Rodger, its being bent as we speak. Have done all the calcs today and the only downside is that it will effectively shorten the arm by around 1.4mm which shouldn't effect things too much. Will post photos of the process. Barry is going to take photos as it comes out of the oven and in the hydraulic press.
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You may consider bending both the arms of 5 mm each so that length difference will be less, and most importantly, they will still both be of the same length compared to each other.
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GGR, we did talk about that. I think its a good idea but would be twice the effort and cost. Given the distance we are shortening the rod is so small I am hoping we will get away with it.. I also want to keep everything at the factory height above the ground if possible. I will run this past Barry again on Monday and see if he would do both arms for the same price as a favor. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Lowest point is the front of the oil pan and the bottom of the axle carrier. The drag link is behind and higher, so you won't have any ground clearance issue if it is 10 mm lower.
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Not worried about ground clearance more the clearance with the bracket that protrudes out into the wheel arch which the steering damper bolts up to. I want to keep the drag link as high above this as possible to avoid any issues. I am probably worrying about nothing. Half my problem is the without the sub frame in the car its hard to visualize or predict problem. I am picking up the powder coated parts for the sub frame this week so may wait until thats in before going any further. Problem being is I am incredibly impatient and desperately want to move the project along so I can use it this summer. Doesn't look as if I will make it. So much stuff to sort out.
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Found this photo on the internet of a correct 113 pitman arm. You can see the additional angle cranking the arm further up in the air. This is what I will try and reproduce by bending the 108 arm. Fingers crossed it works out.
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Guys, am wondering if someone can assist. I am trying to break down the steering shaft so I can get the lower shaft out for shortening. I have hit a bit of a brick wall trying to withdraw the entire shaft complete with center bearings. This bearing seems to have caught up on the lip of the small side tube which accommodates the steering locking barrel. I am sure the solution is simple. I did a bit of a search in here and also on the internet but dew a blank. If anyone has done this before or knows where to get some instructions on the breakdown sequence I would be most appreciative.
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Andy I haven't caught up with this thread for about a week and I am alarmed that you are going to have the pitman arm heated and bent,also the steering shaft cut and welded.
Do you know in the New Zealand warrant of fitness regulations regulation 9.1 says that no part of the steering system is to be heated or welded after original manufacture.
If you go ahead with this and in years to come there is a problem who's head goes on the block ?
Lloyd.
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Hi Lloyd, thanks for the warning. I have looked into this and discussed it with Barry from South Auckland Forgings. As long as the modification are done by an expert and certified it is ok. The only guidance the LTSA give is that all steering modifications require low volume certification and should only be undertaken by an expert. http://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicle/warrants-certifications/modifying.html or http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents.html#code
Given Barry is an industry leader and one of the lead metallurgists in New Zealand I am certain I am in SAFE hands (excuse the punn Barry). I think I am certainly a million times better off than your backyard boffin armed with a hacksaw and limited welding capabilities which I am totally against. As you have kindly pointed out it could be someone close to any off us that is killed by a totally shonky shaft cut and weld job when this sort of modification fails.
Quite coincidentally one of my other good friends is also an independent low volume certifier up here in Auckland ;D If anything he is harder on me that his other clients.
Will continue to post my progress in here hopefully as an example of how to do this job properly. If you have any arms I don't have to bend that your willing to sell let me know.
Andy
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Andy,
Perhaps you could ask Barry a question for me. I will take his opinion as authoritative on this matter. The question is: may coil springs be powder coated without adversely effecting the tempering of the springs? Lots of folks do it, but others have warned against it. Powder coating takes the spring to 400 degrees Fahrenheit. I am motivated to know as I recently had my front springs from my Jaguar powder coated, but now I fear that I should not use them.
Thanks.
Lin
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Eaton Detroit Springs claims that powder coat oven temp must be held to 350F otherwise you'll lose the spring annealing. Best to read up on the spring steel process.
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Guys I asked Barry this about two weeks ago. He categorically states that powder coating temp will have no effect. 400 degrees is very hot and the powder coating process wont come near this. This was also backed up by the guy who is currently doing my springs. His ovens go to a max of 270. Perhaps it depends on the product they are applying. Yes if you heat your springs to over 400 you will get into trouble. If you are really worried you could find a powder coating outfit that uses UV ovens which is the latest technology in that industry. Tim from Procoat, Www.procoat.co.nz. he has done thousands for both road going and competition car. You would assume if it were having adverse effects that he would quickly be receiving negative feedback from his customers and cease the practise.
Have a read of this article which is exactly what Barry is also saying. As long as you dont EXCEED 400 your fine. http://www.techlinecoatings.com/articles/Coating_Valve_Springs_Article.htm
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Lin, I had my 280se springs powder coated two years ago and they are perfectly fine. The only thing I did notice when my subframe went back in was that the car sat to high. After a bit of use it sank back to its normal ride height. I put this down to the brand new bilstiens in combination with everything needing to bed down. In any event this is the exact opposite of what all the scaremongering is suggesting. If you weakened your springs you would expect it to sag. I wouldn't hesitate to put your springs in. Worst case you take them out again which is only a couple of hours of your time. You have spent the money on having them done so I would bang them in and see how you get on. Another option is to take them to a spring shop and get them tested against the manufactures specs. This should be definitive. Might cost you 10 dollars for a bit of piece of mind.
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Just got my first major load back from the powder coaters today. Really happy with the result. Dropped off a mother load of stuff to the electroplaters as well after spending 4 hours on my feet in front of a bead blasting cabinet.
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Hi Andy, i did look at both of my workshop manuals, with regard to pulling the steering column apart but unfortunately neither of them goes into any more details than you have at present.
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Thanks, Andy. I guess I will give them a try, but it is more than a couple of hours to change out the springs on the Jag. Hopefully, the nice and shiny originals will work satisfactorily.
Lin
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Love the part of the project where everything gets 'shiny'. These are just the nuts and bolts in the sub frame. Quite incredible how much hardware hold just this together.
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Carpet sample arrived from Germany. Big thanks KHM. Massive difference between the blacks which surprised me. The blacks with heavy patterns tend to have quite a shiny look to them where the finer grain leather tend to have a more subdued matt appearance. Agains the silver the matt looks beautiful. These little swatches are awesome! I really love the finer square loop carpet as well. Has a more antique look to it if that makes sense.
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Spent the last hour giving all the rubber off the front sub frame a 'tickle up'. I think I may need to replace some pieces as they have cracked and are a bit brittle. May as well slam all these issues while the thing is apart.
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Picked up the chrome grill after it had some panel work done and then chromed. Quite dissapointed with the quality. Backing chrome is peeling and a few nicks and pitting on the front top lip which is highly visible. Think this one will be going back. What do you guys think. I am mainly concearned about the peeling chrome reaching the front lip and peeling onto a surface that is highly visible.
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That is really bad chroming and I would not accept that at all. They needed to clean the item before plating, something that they appear to have not done properly in the first place. They need to start the whole process again. It looks like something I would have be taking to my chromer in the first place to have done.
Garry
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Hi Andy, have to agree with Garry, surprised the chromer let it out of his shop like that.
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Grill frames are very hard to sort out. Anything you do to fix one area usually results in another area not fitting properly. Not the best job I've seen, but then I've seen worse. :(
This may not apply to your situation but I've learned that the better the part that's sent out for restoration, the better the results when it comes to chrome plating.
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Dr Benz, totally agree with your sentiments. Given the money that has now been spent on that grill I am off the opinion that I would have been better have purchased a brand new one. 9 time out of 10 short cuts on these old girls are disastrous! I am learning quickly ;)
I ended up taking the parts back. Initially they did not want to fix the faults but after a bit of gentle persuasion they relented and all three pieces are now being rectified. I will keep you informed of how I get on. Incidentally I still believe that at almost 700 dollars for the grill the plating should have come back bang on the money.
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Yesterday I spent all day sanding again. After a weeks break from it I forgot how terrible it actually is! After 8 hours of it even though I had a face mask on I came home coughing up horrible black muck. Blocked the inside of the bonnet and painted the base and clear. Also scuffed up my newly powder coated rims and blew some 2k etch followed by a liberal dosage of MB180 and finally 2 coats of clear. They look really beautiful and is almost seems a shame to hide all that detail up with hub caps and garnish rings. Now debating on what type of white walls I am going to shoe them with. I kinda like the really fat line 1950's look but cant really afford the dosh to pay for them. I have four brand new kumo's with the thin white wall sitting out the back. They were given to me as matter of fact. I put the same rubber on my 280se. Kinda struggled with them as they arn't exactly what Mercedes would have gone for.
Also picked up my newly ceramic coated original right hand drive factory headers. I am particularly chuffed with them. The coater even took photos for his web site. I was packing myself that something would go wrong with the process or he might loose one. I can even begin to imagine how difficult it would be to replace these with the correct RHD version.
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Andy,
Those headers do look sweet!
Lin
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Have been having a week off the car trying to earn a bit of money... ah to pour right back into my little money pit. Back into it today though. Spent all day in the bead blaster again today. Concentrated on all the pipework in preparation for the electroplaters tomorrow. Very tiring work standing on one foot and operating the air pedal with the other. If you plate a bead blasted surface you end up with a very matt finish so when I got home I used a scotch pad and polished all the pipes to get a better finish with the gold pacifate Also stripped and scrubbed two white wall tyres given to me. Just need another matching set and I will be off and running. White walls in NZ are a ridiculous price, often twice as much as an equivalent black wall. I will just keep an eye out and see if I can make up a matching set.
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Moved back to getting the sub frame back in the car today. Spent most of the day pulling down the steering knuckle, checking the king pins, reassembling and then wire brushing the cast iron ready for a thorough lashing of 2k epoxy primer... old chap. Today I am going to combine this paint job with the final block down and top coat of the bonnet. Getting closer to being able to put my paint gun and mask away by the day. Light at the end of the tunnel!
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Blew the first two coats of epoxy on all my suspension bit a pieces. Also did the final blocking, masking and painting of the bonnet. Forgot my respirator so feel a bit queezy after sniffing the fumes. Not good for you. Hopefully all going well will be putting my sub frame back in during the next couple of days. The epoxy takes a minimum of 24 hours to cure before recoating with etch and top coat so a couple of days before the big reassemble.
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Back in the bead blast cabinet today. Did all my engine bay nuts and bolts and all the aluminium engine components. Have now spent almost 30 hours in the blaster now with probably another 5-10 to go. Well worth the effort though. The inlet manifold was submersed in solvent for 24 hours to pickle out all the grease and oil. Still didn't manage to get absolutely everything out but good enough. Having problems getting the hex plugs out that you can see in the photo. Think I will leave them in an paint them with anticorossive paint instead of getting them electroplated. Has anyone had any experience getting these out?
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Look what turned up in the post today. Put a smile on my dial. Quite an amazing little model 1:72 scale about 2/3 the size of a matchbox but much more detail.
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Have been working on other things this week so the pagoda has taken a back seat. But back onto it today. Made good traction on the sub frame. Got the worst of it done. Compressing the springs is always a time consuming job if your being safe. I use two high tensile 12mm threaded rods to pull the lower arm back into place. Each side takes about 30 minutes of winding. I think doing this job with the sub frame in the car would be much easier. I am interested to see how other member here tackle this job. Probably a much easier way to do it.
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Also picked up some of my chrome plating as well. Second time around they have got it right. Also got them to do several other trim items including my rear vision mirror which would have looked quite manky had I put it back in with all the pitted chrome. They are still working on the grill, its now been about a month they have had it. They are paying much better attention to it this time around. It still in the copper stage and will be another week. Will post some pics when it comes back. Also got back another load of stuff from the electroplaters. They made a few mistakes as well and tried to gold pacifate my zinc fuel lines that run under the car. Zinc and gold pacifate don't mix. Got a terrible reaction so the lot will have to be stripped and done again.
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The gold pacifate on the engine bay gear looks pretty good. The grills cost about as much as a non OEM replacement to get done here if they need any work at all.
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Spent this afternoon finishing off the sub frame. Took quite a while to get all the torque settings right and grease everything. Pretty happy with the result. Still need to concentrate on the sub fame mountings and engine mounts. Dont quite know how to determine if the sub frame mounts should be replaced. Any one got some advice on this. The ones that came out of the car look a bit hard and brittle but dont appear to be collapsed. The engine mounts are easy to pick when they start to perish. The centers collapse in quite an obvious manner. I dont want to blow money unnecessarily but on the other hand know how hard the sub frame mounts will be to change if I make the wrong call. Any advice appreciated.
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Rubber parts are affected by age. So it is a good idea to replace them all while doing a full restoration like yours. Otherwise you may have to go back and replace them as they may wear rapidly when you start using the car. Additional work won't be worth the savings, especially for the ones which are hard to replace once it is all back in place like the rear end center boot for example. Old subframe mounts, even if they look good, may separate if you leave the car on a lift or stands with the front wheels hanging without supporting the subframe. For the easily accessible ones, I guess you can take a chance if they look good.
Try to replace with quality parts. Some aftermarket rubber parts are absolute crap. I had some bad experience with URO and I'm not the only one.
The w113 subframe mounts are quite expensive. The mount itself is the same as on the 108/109/111 chassis, so you can save quite a lot by reusing your stop plates and bolts.
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Have been fitting up all the chrome this week working out what I need to have re-chromed. Decided to pull apart both the door handles and have them done. Quite a fiddly job that I know will take quite a while to put back together. All in all most of my chrome is very good. The bits I am having redone are actually quite good but have a few scratches here and there. Funny the further through these restorations the fussier you get. Sort of a snow ball effect! Going to pick up my grill this afternoon. They have now had it for over a month. Will be very interesting to see how it turned out. Will post some pics tonight for you all.
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Went to the chrome platers this afternoon to pick up the grill, checked it before I walked out the door this time. Strange marks on the the top lip that they cant explain. They asked me to leave it with them to 'investigate'. Frustrating!!!!! Spent this morning in the bead blaster with my new rocker cover. Showed up a couple of cracks which needed to be welded. Back into the bead blaster tomorrow after the welds have been completed. The rough cast rocker cover is worth the effort and will give the car the 'early' look. Am interested to know if the smooth cover that came with the car is original or not. Does anyone know when the rough cast covers were phased out?
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Have been busy this week working on the brakes and power steering. I have decided to just ignore the potential issues with the W108 power steering arm and just sort any consequences out if they ever occur. I spent ages with a wire brush on the end of a drill taking all the power steer and brake components back to nice shiny steel. The power components have been painted in the good old epoxy 2k primer while I got the brake components ceramic coated to handle the heat. I don't know where it all goes but I have once again run out of epoxy primer and have had to acquire another 4 liters today meaning I have now sunk 12 liters into the car. Probably quite a bit of waste due to the small batches I have been mixing up. Quite often there is a little bit left over which just gets biffed. Also picked up brand new engine mounts. The one under the manifold in my opinion is very hard to get at and its simply not worth the risk of putting old rubber back in.
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Has anyone encountered the part I have highlighted in the parts breakdown below. When I stripped the sub frame two strange bolts were floating loose with the frame. I have only just pieced it together and realized they are obviously some sort of engine mount fail safe. The plate seems to sit inside the sub frame and is bolted to the underside of the engine mount? Strange! Would appreciate if someone could confirm. I am deciding on if I should try and refit them. They dont feature on the W108 which has identical mounts. Any advice much appreciated.
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Finally got my grill back yesterday after 3 attempts the platers have finally got it right. I really like the look of chrome against the cool shade of MB180. The rear vision mirror came up really nicely as well. Was quite tricky getting it back together. The two clam shells had quite tight tolerances to begin with. I think the plater put on quite a bit of material which made it really tight going back together. Need two more hub caps and I also have a full set.
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Glad to see they finally got it right for you.
Garry
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Has anyone encountered the part I have highlighted in the parts breakdown below. When I stripped the sub frame two strange bolts were floating loose with the frame. I have only just pieced it together and realized they are obviously some sort of engine mount fail safe. The plate seems to sit inside the sub frame and is bolted to the underside of the engine mount? Strange! Would appreciate if someone could confirm. I am deciding on if I should try and refit them. They dont feature on the W108 which has identical mounts. Any advice much appreciated.
Yes, their role is to restrain movement of the engine. People often do without them but some end up with a dent in the hood after going through a pothole. This happened to someone right during the Williamsburg P-50 gathering.
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Thanks GGR, that makes sense. I think based on that I will persevere and make an effort to put them back in. Have you fitted them yourself. The only way that I can see to do it is with the springs out of the car. Its seems the only access is through a gap behind the spring. I can get my hand in there but not a spanner. I only have the complete parts for one of them so will need to do a bit of work to either reproduce the bits I am short on. I wonder if they are still available through the factory?
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Cheers Garry, I am really relieved. Its not 100% perfect but only 2-3% off. Compared to where it has come from its really a fantastic result. I really cant afford a new one at this point of proceedings. Just been chocking on the cost of a total interior refit. May not be able to stretch for the top of the line 'original' grain leather I had set my heart on.
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Andy, you fit the plate and screw in the stud with the double nuts to the engine mount before the mount is fitted into the front suspension beam.
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Cheers Lloyd. Whats thrown me a bit is the plate shown in the parts breakdown appears to have exactly the same foot print as the engine mount. I can understand the mechanics with this setup where the plate is sandwiched between the sub frame and the mount and the central bolt then has something to work against. But with mine the plate is perfectly round and the only way it could work would be if it were bolted up from the inside of the frame. Its a perfect size for doing this and is where I found it to begin with. Will take another look first thing in the morning. Its frustrating me as I have all my final painting of the chassis rails done now and really want the sub frame back in the car. Dont think I will get to it until lunch tomorrow as the America's cup will be taking center stage.
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Starting to prep up the next batch of parts for sandblasting and paint. Made sure my hubs were in this batch so I can put the car back on its feet as soon as the sub frame goes back in. First stage the parts with the wire brush on the angle grinder. Step two tomorrow morning back into the bead blast cabinet.
Also dropped off my power steer box at the hydraulic specialist to have the new seal kit fitted. I thought about doing it myself but really just want to get it done as quickly as possible and back in the car. Pick it up Thursday.
Also had a really pleasant surprise when my friend Roger came around in his mint 280sl and took me for a drive. I have completely forgot what a great experience it is to be in motion in these old girls. Given me another breath of enthusiasm to press on with mine. Thanks Roger!
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Finally got my bonnet back today. A few very small cosmetic issues on the inside but otherwise really pleased. Cant wait to refit it. I thought I would remount the bonnet badge but now it looks decidedly shabby up against the nice crisp paint work. I would love another one but will probably have to sell my remaining kidney to be able to afford it.
Also picked up my steering box after it had been fitted with the new repair kit so ready to rock with the power steering conversion now. I will do the pumps seal myself next week and paint all the remaining components at some point after the sub frame makes its way back into the car.
Masked up all the components waiting for paint which took an eternity. Lots of fiddly nooks and crannies to mask. I had painted the power steering box prior to taking it to the hydraulic specialist with black high gloss 2k epoxy but they had done a fair bit of scuffing all over the surface so I have decided to repaint in 2k satin. I think they felt quite guilty and commented on the nice finish when I picked it up. The shiny look doesn't look quite right along side the satin of the sub frame.
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This is going to be an incredibly pristine machine ... we keep tuning in ... thanks for the play by play.
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Cheers kampala. I am hoping for a tidy little runner that will give 5 to 10 years of trouble free motoring. If I achieve this I will be tickled pink.
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Nice progress!. If you are to keep the hood in that position for a while, you'de better attach it to something. It is light compared to its surface and draught or wind can easily have it fall when you open the garage door, with all the consequences on your nice paint! Don't ask me how I know, it happened to me twice, though I was lucky enough it was before it was painted.
I will soon renew my brakes and like you, I will be painting the hubs and the part of the rotors that are not exposed to the pads. However these parts can go very hot, including the hub. What paint have you been using? Which one would you recommend for my application? Would caliper paint be good?
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GGR, good point about securing the bonnet. I will be moving it to a safer place first thing tomorrow morning! Regarding the paint on the hubs, I have tried caliper paint from a rattle can directly on bare metal on several occasions over the past 20 years. My experience is that they all start rusting out relatively quickly. I have migrated to using industry strength paints out of the tin that have to be sprayed on using a compressor and spray gun. The results are much better and the cost is often much cheaper. I used a 2k ceramic based paint on the calipers and hubs. It handles the heat as well as resisting oil and other chemicals and is incredibly hard and chip resistant. It honestly makes a mockery of anything you can buy in a can. I am sure it is 100 times better than what the factory put on. The only issue is the cyanide content which you have to be aware off. I feel quite safe after buying a really good respirator and painters overalls. I also go through heaps of disposable latex gloves to ensure I dont come into contact with this stuff. I have about three paint guns now, they are cheap as chips and have saved me quite a bit of money across the restoration. In fact the one skill I have really enjoyed learning is the painting. If you want I can take some close ups of the finished hubs. Let me know. I hope I am not boring you guys with all this stuff!
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Andy, in the photograph of your steering parts of reply #177, particularly the two tie rods, I notice that the tubular parts of the tie rods are not the same length. One is about 6 -10 mm longer than the other. I'm not talking about the tie rod ends screwed into the tubes. The actual tubes are different lengths. The EPC, at least for my 1967 230SL shows the tie rod tubes to be identical.
When I removed mine a couple of days ago, I noticed the same thing. My body restorer removed the suspension and put it back hand tight to ship the car back to me. I just looked at the notes my body restorer left me. They say the short one is on the left but they don't give a length for either. They also don't say if they are talking about the tube or the overall length. Did you measure yours when your removed them. If so, I would appreciate knowing your measurements of the tie rod lengths (including the ends) as a "starting point" until I can complete my build and get the suspension aligned.
I can't find in the Technical Manual, or any of the repair books including the BBB, an initial build length for the steering parts. It seems that it would be a nice starting point for those of us who work on our own cars, but who don't do alignments.
Thanks for your dimensions if you have them.
Tom Kizer
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Hi Tom, no problems at all. Give me a few hours as I am in the middle of some other work and I will go out and take the measurements for you. Will take some photos and overlay the results. Cheers Andy
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Tom, I measured up the rods and my tubes are only a few mm different but very close measuring 245 and 241mm. The measurement which I think is more critical is the center to center measurment of the ball joints on each rod. Mine are both 380mm. Sort of makes sense the steering is symmetrical. There is at least 15-20mm adjustment on either end of the ball joints so even if you have some funky manufacturing differences in the tubes they delta could definitely be made up with this adjustment. I would set them up to the 380mm measurment and wait till it gets on the alignment machine. Hope this helps.
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Thanks enormously, Andy. That helps a lot. I still wonder why the tubes are different when the EPC says they should be the same part number - oh well!
I`ll set them up at 380 mm, center to center and wait for the alignment. I wouldn`t even try to align the steering without the car completely assembled. The engine isn`t even installed yet. I just don`t want to wait to at least put in an adjustment that will be safe if I forget to finalize it.
Thanks again.
Tom Kizer
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Spent this morning ensuring all the nut and bolts in the sub frame were torqued up correctly. A bit precarious trying to put it in own your own but I managed. First time was a bit of a disaster after discovering I had put the sway bar in upside down. An hour latter (and a fair bit of 'colorful' language) I finally bolted the last fasteners. Big relief. Can now get on with my engine. One of the things I constantly have battled with is space. Its fantastic to have back again the small area in front of the car that the sub frame had been hogging for the past month. Also finished off the wheel hubs. Am carefully now going to look at the inner and outer wheel bearings to see if replacements need to be sought. I brought new inner grease seals as the old ones seemed quite hard and brittle. Hopefully my little girl will be back on her feet before the end of the weekend!
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One nasty consequence of putting the sub frame back in is that I have discovered that the power steering idler arm issue has come back to bite me again. I thought that I was out of the woods after discovering a friend of mine who has a 230sl also has a W108 power steer setup in it. I was right on the point on having my arm bent the 10mm to bring it in line with the factory arm but after talking to my friend, who has had no major alignment or tire wear issues, I decided to go ahead without bending the arm. After I bolted up all the parts today I have discovered that the drag link ball joint attached to the arm now interferes with the stay attached to main chassis rail (see photo). I could just grind a bit out of this but really want to do it properly so I will probably strip the box back out and go back to my initial plan of bending the arm. Very very very frustrating.
Also picked up my next load of chrome plating today. At least I can spend a bit of time putting some 'bling' back on the car. It might temporarily take my mind away from the dreaded power steer problem.
Perhaps I should admit defeat and go back to the manual non power steer box. What do you guys think?
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Thanks enormously, Andy. That helps a lot. I still wonder why the tubes are different when the EPC says they should be the same part number - oh well!
I`ll set them up at 380 mm, center to center and wait for the alignment. I wouldn`t even try to align the steering without the car completely assembled. The engine isn`t even installed yet. I just don`t want to wait to at least put in an adjustment that will be safe if I forget to finalize it.
Thanks again.
Tom Kizer
They are the same. Why would they be different? I've seen different tie rod ends so maybe that explains some of it.
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Tie rods are so interesting. The EPC says the tubes are both the same part number. Andy`s tubes are 241 and 245 mm long (without the ends). Mine are 240 and 246 mm long (without the ends). I`ve concluded that this precision part must have a blueprint length dimension of 243 mm +/- 3 mm, or more. That way they are all correct. Either that or someone used a tie rod from a different car at some time in the past.
I also found that all of my shock absorber washers were upside down when I took the car apart. And the steering relay arm pin radial lip seal was upside down, what was left of it. That's probably why it was mostly gone, ruptured and split by the hydraulic lock of the relay arm moving in and out of the trunnion bearing as it rotates (See the note on BBB page 46-11/2). A significant percentage of what I removed at the beginning of my restoration was improperly installed sometime before I bought the car. The left and right engine mounts were different, the left one being some kind of sedan mount. The one correct engine mount was missing its rebound stop plate, buffer and bolt. A lot of little parts, that the EPC says should be there, were missing.
My advice when dealing with a 50 year old car is: "Trust nothing you find to be correct - find out what it should be." I just wish that MB was not so stingy with their information (and I used to work for them when they were DaimlerChrysler).
Oh well, live and learn.
Tom Kizer
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Tom, I agree without some level of factory documentation that it would be a much tougher job putting these old girls back together. It would be great if the factory supported this with better access to EPC and the like. I have never had access to EPC and have relied on the following site during my resto for reference on how reassembly should take place. http://mb.ilcats.ru/group/class/1/ccode/1/cat/249/type/113/subtype/042 It certainly has been a life saver for me on several occasions.
I think it would be in the factories best 'long term' interests to open up access to this type of information. I am sure a good case could be made that it would help increase the probability that more old mercedes live on for future generations to enjoy... and that in years to come the factory have an increased chance of selling very very expensive parts to the punters.
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Andy,
I am a newcomer.
What is the source of your reference link? What exactly is it? :-) I mean other than the obvious parts catalog or inventory.
Lin
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Hi Lin, the parts breakdown is really handy for me as many hundreds of my parts from all sorts of system were taken off the car and mixed up in a bucket in order to have them re-plated. Its been over 9 months now since I took everything apart and even though while taking them apart the mind tells you that 'its simple' and will be 'easy to put back' when you finally come to do it even simple stuff trips you up. Questions like 'was a washer suppose to go behind there' or 'which was up is that part suppose go' come up all the time. If you the last couple of post I admitted to a dumb mistake of putting the torsion bar in upside down. I went back to the parts break down to confirm. The parts breakdown is also awesome for ordering parts as well. Some of the parts are difficult to explain so if you have the part number you dont have to go through that pain with the supplier. Just look it up at home in the comfort of your own living room.
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Went around this afternoon to the friend who had his car converted to a W108 power steer box to see how he got away with the interference issue I described in my previous post. Before I went I bet him 10 dollars that he had the same issue and that the mechanic who installed his system simply ground down the gusset to give the required clearance. Guess what... I won that bet. Quite an ugly solution in my opinion. Its tempting to copy just to get me going but I really want to get it right and not have to grind off a structural component that was engineered for a reason. In my mind I think I would rather correctly bend the pitman arm than hack off the gusset. Any thought from you guys?
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Well, it's a bit of a dilemma.
Bending the steering arm by 10 mm will slightly affect the movement radius which is determined by the perpendicular to the rotation axis and the current position of the ball joint on the arm. Right now the arm is at a certain angle compared to rotation axis so there is a given relation with the perpendicular of the rotation axis. In theory, if you change the angle, you should also change the length as to recover the relation with the perpendicular of the rotation axis. In practice, I don't think it will affect much the way the steering works by much, especially that the relay arm is also crooked and therefore shortens the distance between the two arms. By altering one, you may help correct the second one.
Regarding the bracket, if I remember my physics lessons well, strength won't be really altered if you cut that lip following a diagonal from the lower point of where the lip connects to the bracket in the front, and the highest point where the lip connects with the chassis rail in the back. But I'm no engineer.
The ideal solution of course would be for you to find the correct arm.
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Hi Andy,
I'm new to this group and have only just looked at your posts regarding your restoration project.
I must say very impressive, you are doing a great job.
I'm doing a ground up restoration of a 1966 230sl as well, so it's very interesting to see encounters that you have met and so forth.
I bought my car form the US sight unseen, so I put a lot of trust in the seller, they were partially honest, but I've found on dismantling that a lot of parts really need replacing.
Obviously from US it's LHD, but in Oz we can have full registration if the car is over 30 years old. I would have preferred to get a RHD but found it easier to get on from o/s.
I've set myself a time of about 2 years, but will probably finish sooner as I'm semi retired (at present) and spend on average about 40 a week on it.
I intend to make a rotisserie for it, probably start on that next week.
I've been getting a few parts from some very obliging blokes in the US and on this forum.
Happy to share any info with you.
Cheers,
Jack
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GGR, I agree with logic in regard to bending the arm. The guys who are going to do it for me have already done all the calcs. The only measurment that looks like it will suffer is the over relative length of the arm, relative from the center of the box shaft to the center of the ball joints, which will decrease by about 2 to 3 mm. This will have the effect of reducing my turn to turn steering lock slightly (I believe insignificantly). I also agree that grinding the gusset probably wont reduce its strength. I also know it hasn't caused any problems for my friend in the ten years he has has been running with this setup. Still after all the effort I have gone to keeping it original an after getting all the paint work absolutely mint I cannot bear to take a grinder near it. Will sleep on it again for a few days I think.
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Well, its not only the lock to lock that will be affected, but right and left won't by synchro anymore Right radius will be shorter than left one). But I doubt you will feel the difference in driving it. The good thing about bending the arm is that you can replace it the day when you find the right one, without having altered anything else permanently.
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GGR, again you are correct on the radius. One last alternative I have is that for 2700 NZD the company who are doing the work have offered to manufacture an arm from scratch. They specialize in forging so can produce the dies, press the new component out in huge presses, trim the product up in a cnc mill and then send it off to another crowd to have the spine and tapered ball joint holes machined. Even then 2700 is total mates rates. I write software for them so we are constantly doing little contra deals. Just cant justify the expense and am sure if I embark on a world wide search I would find the correct arm for a lot less money. It would be a damned cool project to work on. They also specialize in titanium forging which would be even better.
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Still after all the effort I have gone to keeping it original..
So why not retain the manual steering? - it doesn't seem overly heavy to me
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Dave, I may end up doing that. I really want my wife to be able to easily drive the car. I also have a friend who drove his manual non ps car for 3 years before converting it. Around town he hated it when doing low speed manouvers and now that he has converted it will never go back again. I am very very interested to here from other people who have had both options and can give me a better perspective.
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Fair enough - sounds like you are 90% there.
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I've just joined this forum after restoring a 230SL earlier this year for a client and totally appreciate what you've been going through!! I've been painting cars professionally for over 30 years but nothing frustrates more than restoration projects, however, the sense of achievement when you've 'cracked it' is worth all the efforts.
Things you would expect to take a couple of hours turn into marathons, (it took me 6 hours just to re-fit the door window regulator for example!) and everything seems to be fitted, checked, removed and re-fitted to ensure it's right, patience is a virtue!
When we were doing the restoration we used http://www.motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm as an invaluable reference for originality, there's also a few pics on my website of the car in progress and completed:
http://www.matchboxrestorations.co.uk/
I've got loads more if anyones interested?
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Hi Spraydav. The motoring investments site is indeed a very valuable source of information. I have spent days and days looking over the photos. I took a look at your site, very nice work indeed. I would dearly love to kick my day job (software engineer) to the curb and restore these old beauties. Don't think it would be economical though as things that take a professional restorer hours to do would take me days! Nothing beats experience in any industry!
I spent four hour yesterday trying to reassbemble my door handle. I had all the bits chromed and pulled it right down. You need about four hands to put the thing back together! Will post some pics latter in the day. Still didn't work with something now wrong with the tumbler which no longer accepts the key! Apart it all comes again and I will take the barrel down to the locksmith. I could try and pull it all apart but think at this point I will bit my pride and take just that part to an expert for a further look.
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Can anyone help. I took my tumbler to the locksmith this morning due to the key not fitting. They think the tumbler has had it and I need another. I have checked with a MB parts stockist here in Auckland and MB only seem to list the entire door handle. All I need is a barrel that accepts a key and I can swap over my pins to get it going with my key. If anyone has an old door handle floating around I would be happy to buy it off you. To rub salt into the would I have discovered that I have almost spent the same amount re chroming what I have as a new handle is brand new. Any help appreciated.
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Just had a huge clean up getting reading for the next big push. I came across all the bits and pieces I cut out of the car. I dont know why I had kept them. At the time when I cut all the bits and pieces out I thought I had one really terrible car. My W108 had absolutely no rust in it at all. Looking back now knowing what I do now I think comparatively had very little rust. The first photo below is of every bit I cut out. Most of the repairs were where previous owner plated over rust to 'keep it going' or pass fitness tests. It took me a good 4 months to put back these bits of metal back to the point you cant really notice the repair. Sometimes I wonder if I would have been better to sacrifice some of the original spotwelds and have simply welded in new panels. To late to worry about it now! Have decided to throw all the bits in the bin and move on.
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That's all you cut out of the car? That would be considered a rust free car in many parts of the world ;)
I love following your threads and admire your attention to detail. Remind me to buy my next vintage car off you instead of the typical hack who thinks a restoration can be done with a wire wheel, yard of chicken wire, couple newspapers and a bucket of bondo.
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Cheers Bonnyboy. I still don't consider I am restoring rather than refurbishing. I just hope what I have done will preserve the car for some time to come. I think a proper restorer would not be patching like I have done but would strip entire panels out and replace them. I really only started documenting the restoration on this thread well after I had done all the rust repairs. I might put some up now to show the type of repair I employed. Before I started the restoration I purchased a really tricked out little mig welder that you dial in the thickness of the steel and it sorts out all the wire feed speed and current. This purchase paid for itself many times over and meant the welds were all nice and clean with minimal blow through. My welding usually sucks really really badly but with these new welders alot of the guess work is taken away and the result is very clean and professional looking result. Highly recommend for anyone wanting to take on repairs at home. Including the gas bottle the entire set up cost about 2000 dollars. When I have finished I will sell it and recover at least half of the investment.
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A few more pics of the final floor panel under the gas pedal. Also another area I found rust tucked away in was inside the front guard above the rail. I had a nasty decision to either take of the front guard to get at it or saw off the lower portion of the guard. I choose the latter to preserve the spot welds. The removal of the front guard would be a nightmare in any event with it being welded in dozens of locations to the body. Dont think mercedes wanted this panel to come off... ever. So off came the lower portion of the guard. Gave good access to the rusty area. Once the new steel was welded in I decided to go overboard and put about 5 coats of POR15 on the bare steel. I never never never want to have to go back in here again. Even after the guard section was welded back on I managed to get my hand in from the tyre well and paint another couple of coats over the burnt weld sites. After this I then blew two or three coats of wirth stone chip to reproduce what the factory put in there. On top of that I ended up also painting over the silver body color and also a coat of clear. So fingers crossed it wont rust again.
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Some other photos I thought you guys might be interested in as well. Fuel tank was actually quite good when I got it but as with all my other cars I got it acid pickled to take out all rust and scale inside out. It showed up some pretty wacky repairs from previous owners. A few dents from the car backing into things. Not too deep but someone has decided to bog it up. I pulled all this out and got a friend of mine to pull out the dents with an awesome little tool which welds small sections of wire to the surface which enable you to get a puller on. After you have finished you simply carefully grind off the stems. Sealed the tank really really well on the inside. I think quite a few fuel issue with the engine can be traced back to rust scale getting sucked through. I hopefully have set this tank up for another 50 years of use.
The other photos show the rest of the floor pan which was really in outstanding condition for its age. Only sections worked on were the gas pedal and the section under the passenger seat. All the rest was mint. Seam sealed everything three or four times and then top coated the whole lot one last time with the epoxy primer. I was actually stunned at the lack of protection the factory put on the floor panels. In some places there was only a dusting of primer and then they slammed over the bitumen matting.
I have been searching for a long time for the 'correct' bitumen mat to put back down. Recently found something very close to the original which I will detail in the next couple of weeks. I know a lot of people don't put this back and use modern equivalents but I am shooting for as close to factory as possible.
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Very nice work!
I also, would call that a really well preserved car with only minimal rust...
- Petri
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Andy your inbox is full
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Big push to get all the sound dead material in the cabin ready for the interior refit. Took about 8 hours to get 80% of it down. Lots of templates. I used a German product from Wurth which was as close to what came off as possible. Its about .6mm thinner than the original but will probably be ok. I may even put down some fat mat to really cut the cabin noise down. The first photo is the car with the remnants of the original material.
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Also worked on the cars dog tags today. The firewall plates are always hard to get looking good. I really put a lot of effort into getting it half decent as I am loathed to put in some tacky recreation. I have seen some shockers!
The photo below shows a 1971 W108 tag which was in about the same condition as the fresher looking 1964 sl tag. I used 2000 grit wet sandpaper to linish off all the oxidization and then polished with a very fine cutting compound to try and bring back some of the lettering. It did take a little of the black background off but at least you can now read most of the tag. Then sealed it all in with a good quality 2k clear coat.
I can now tick this off and move on my new diamond firewall pad. Good to start putting stuff back on.
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Hi Andy been watching your thread with keen interest. Great job !!! My car is 113.042-20-002726. Only 8 difference !!!! Thats puts our cars in around March 1964 build !
Here's my progress but I've gone slow in the past 6 months, waiting for that 2nd wind !
www.getsmartpagoda.tumblr.com
Regards, Joe
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Joes, thats really neat. It even looks as if your car is the same color as mine (originally I mean). I am interested to see if this is the case. Light Red was a very rare and unpopular color. The factory discontinued it after two years. I struggled with not going back to that color and even had some mixed up and sprayed onto quite a large test card. I quite liked it but have always lusted after a silver pagoda. Was quite an epic mind bend trying to decide on which way to go. Are you going to leave the car red? Would love some photos of it before you started pulling it apart.
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Andy, you are doing a fine job! Cannot wait to see the end results :)
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Cheer Rolf, It might be a while till you get to see it finished but hopefully I have entertained you with my babbling commentary along the way.
This morning I have been fitting up the diamond firewall pad. Not perfect but its quite presentable me thinks. Threw in a couple of pics for everyone and also included one of the front suspension wishbones... just cause I thought it looked cool!
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Hi Andy, mine was signal red 568, with interior trim of white-grey mb-tex...
I don't have any before pictures as I purchased mine when it had already been stripped (unfinished project). It was owned by a panel beater who had a bad accident and wasn't able to complete the project.
What colour code was yours ?
I'm undecided what colour to paint it in. i'm leaning to silver (like yours :) ) but was thinking black initially. THe color choice does not hit me between the eyes yet !
Regards, Joe
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Andy, pictures look cool, keep them coming ... You know what they say one picture is worth 1000 words and you know what it's true ;)
BTW ... I also had a 2002 ///m3 e46 sold her in 2010 ... Still kicking myself that I did that, more now then last year since the 280 SL is giving me more fun then my now DD a e92 ///m3
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Nice! It's coming together!
Is that a BMW M10 motor I see in the background? Out of a 2002 TI?
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Thanks guys. Love getting feedback from you all. The engine in the back is indeed a bmw m10. Have been building it since I was in my early 20s. Strange the way your tastes change. Almost seems offensive to me now. Radical schrict 316 duration cam and weber sidedraft 48s.
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Cloud 9..... that's what I am on!
Thanks to this forum and the fantastic support I have had, I have finally tracked down a fabled 217 rhd pitman arm which is currently winging its way to me from the UK. Think I would have given up this restoration without you guys. Sincerest appreciation! I don't want to jinx anything at this point but am certainly excited about the prospect of this particular package turning up on my door step. Can now go ahead and get the steering shaft cut by 40mm. Huge!
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Andy,
before you get off cloud 9, reward us for all the free advice you got and join us as a full member. ;)
I bet you'll get even more!
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Hi Alfred,
I know where you are coming from with the full membership thing and totally support it.
However I have been unemployed for over a year now and am desperately trying to reduce my outgoings to an absolute minimum.
I understand how restoring/owning a pagoda and pleading poverty can be viewed as quite contradictory. I brought the car in better times and had already started taking it apart before I lost my job.
Up until a couple of weeks ago I had pretty much spent only my own time on the thing, swapping computer advice for paint supplies and the like. I even went as far as totally preparing the car for paint and did 90 percent of the paint job myself to try and keep the costs right down.
If you go back through my post you will find several references to this.
As soon as I have a job the first thing I intend to do is pay up my subs. In the mean time I am trying to pay my way in here with as much advice to other members as I can and also provide a bit of entertainment with tales of my restoration.
If I am viewed as a sponge I will high tail it out of here as quickly as I can. Let me know your thoughts on this.
Cheers
Andy
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Hi Andy,
stick around here as long as you want - it was intended to be a gentle rubbing and not a gun at your head - and we do enjoy entertainment too. :)
Good luck with the restoration and the job search!
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Hi Andy, full marks for tenacity on the search for the steering arm.
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Back into it today after a few days break. Finally managed to get my steering column broken right down and sent the shaft off down to the engineers to be shortened. Will post more pics of that process as it happens.
Huge morning back in the bead blaster sorting out the steering column shrouds, the remaining steering arms and all the pulleys off the front of the engine including the new power steering ones. Pepped them up and went through the ritual of degrease and 2k epoxy primer. Almost do this in my sleep it has become so familiar.
Also started work on my window wiper motor. I am not certain how it was painted at the factory. If anyone can help with this I would be appreciative. I am just going to paint the body satin and the mounting plate zinc. I could pull it all apart and get it zinc plated but think I will mask and paint instead.
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Spent all day with thinners, paint stripper and detergent cleaning the wiring loom. Was a bit of a mess with several layers of over spray in various shades. Going over it with a fine tooth comb also shows up all the faults. I have quite a few repairs mostly in the engine bay. Also quite a few of the rubber grommets are absolutely shot. I have never seen them for sale so think I will start with my spare w108 looms and see if I can loot any compatible rubber bits.
Also blew the final coat of satin on the latest batch of parts. I cant wait till the shortened steering shaft comes back this week and I can get the car back on its feet with all the steering connected back up. I think ones I get the steering and wiring loom in things will go back together quite quickly, or should I say the pace will pick up.
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You may want to consider a kit like this one for the grommets: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Firewall-grommet-kit-W113-113-230SL-250SL-280SL-PAGODE-PAGODA-ROADSTER-/221299597436?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33867be07c&vxp=mtr
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Thanks GGR. I have been looking at a firewall set for a long time. The grommets I am after sadly arn't part of that kit. More down the side of engine bay where smaller arms of the loom pass through brackets and various other openings. Most of the really perished ones are around heat sources or low down where oil gets all over them and over time they just disintegrate. A good example is the main power feed from the battery to the alternator which passes through three of these grommets which are pressed into small brackets which are bolted the bottom of the engine running just below the main pulley right out the front. If your interested I can take some more detailed pictures.
Another similar issue I have is that around the same locations, ie heat and oil, the once flexible insulation on the wires goes hard and brittle. I think I will sacrifice one of my other looms and look for identical guage wire with the same color code to splice back in. The last thing you want with a new restoration is an electrical fire in the engine bay.
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The rubbers shown in the first picture have been used on many models including more recent ones. So you may be lucky to find some newer ones in junkyards, though they are often blue.
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GGR will try my local parts man in the next couple of days. I pulled out three W108 looms looking for the rubber bits I need. None of them had any the same which was quite frustrating.
So I gave up and moved on this afternoon breaking down the gear shift mechanism. I am not quite sure why but the rubber seal underneath the main base plate had turned to absolute glug. When I pulled it out of the car half of it stayed on the inside of the tunnel and the rest pulled away with the lever. Quite a mess to clean up. Even thinners didn't really budge it. Smearing with a rag was the most effective technique.
Also another strange thing was that it seems half of the bushing have been done and the two minor arms bushes were stuffed. I would have thought that they all come as a set. Guess I will have to buy an entire set to get the ones I need.
Does anyone know what the factory finish on the arms is suppose to be. ie gold electroplating or paint? All I have is a rusted mess with no sign of what my friends at the factory intended.
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Another couple of decisions I need to sleep on. The pedal set is in pretty good condition with only slight patina visible. Is it enough to justify pulling the whole unit apart and strip it to bare metal. I think I might just leave it and touch up the localized areas that need a little bit of attention. May also pull out the spring and get it re-plated again as its a bit rusty.
Also I am a tad worried about the clutch master leaking onto my brand new carpet set. That would really rip my undies. For those of you that have never been to New Zealand http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wouldn%27t%20that%20just%20rip%20ya%20undies! .
Last push with all the power steering components also. Again I am resistant to remove the factory lettering on the power steer canister. I think I will leave it and just paint the cap and bracket. Will have a crack at getting the pulley off the pump tomorrow. Last one I did I had to use heat.
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Hi Andy,
Re your gear leaver "stabiliser" rod parts. I have found them at SLS in Germany, very helpful people, you will be able to buy the whole kit or individual parts.
Re rods, I painted my rods black as it looked like thats how they were.
Re you power steering reservoir, I did what you are considering, taped over the yellow writing and sprayed the rest, in any event the strap/clamp covers the writing I think.
I guess you know, but in case you don't, when masking up something like that, to avoid having a hard edge when de-masking, apply the masking tape with a rolled edge, sticky side out so the paint can be "feathered".
Cheers, jack
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Cheers Jack, I will give SLS a try. I am also probably going to do a big shipment from Buds at some time soon for all the interior so I might try them to see if I can keep the shipping down. If they dont have then SLS it is.
Thanks for info on the rods. I am interested to figure out why they were so badly rusted. Guess a combination of a lot of road spray, heat and oil.
Thanks for the advice on the soft edge, if I do paint the reservoir I will probably employ that tactic as well. It hadn't occurred to me. During my journey painting the car I picked up a lot of new knowledge around painting including the soft edge trick your talking about. I used it extensively as by and large I painted the car section by section and used this tactic to avoid hard lines.
Even after all the painting I have done I still am not that good at it. The parts I painted yesterday were sub standard as I didn't thin the paint quite enough resulting in the paint going on a bit dry. I have a variety of guns including a very fine touch up gun that I have been using to control the over spray on the smaller parts I am painting in my garage. I have found with the small gun the paint also has to be thinned out that extra little bit to get it running smoothly. Guess its the smaller apertures?
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Main rear engine seal, or gearbox input shaft seal??? I am picking its engine oil. I will definitely be resealing the gearbox but didn't want to have to drop the crank to so the rear seal. Think I know which way it will have to go...
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Got my steering shaft back today so am on the home stretch with the power steering. The guys did a brilliant job shortening the shaft. Its all been certified as stronger than the original part. They are going to supply me the certification report in the next couple of days complete with the analysis of the material, photos of the construction process and all the computer traces of the post and pre welding heat treatment process. If anyone is interested I can post it up here.
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I'm sure I missed something, why shorten the shaft? the tranny oil is red autotranny fluid. Or, possibly the oil came in from above?
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Hi Garry, I have had to shorten the shaft by 40mm as I have converted the car to a factory power steer box where the input shaft protrudes 40mm further toward the drivers knee than the non power steer box. I hope I haven't missed something as a new shaft will be hard to come by!
When I pulled the engine out there was 40 years of filthy crud everywhere. The dilemma is that the engine was running so beautifully before I took it out I dont want to do a full strip down and reseal the entire engine. At the same time I am uncertain where exactly the engine was leaking or if it was leaking at all. The crud could have been there for 20 years!
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How many miles are on it? The primary leakage areas are the valvecover. But the head gasket gets soggy by 100K mand lots of years. Especially the 280 which has a cut between each cylinder and not much gasket there. I caught mine just in time and the slots were very plugged up. You sjould be able to see the back of the fly wheel and see if the oil came from the rear seal. The rear seal is a bear. The top is pinned in the center top and cannot be pulled out like an old chevy. You have to drop the crank to replace the top rope seal. Its not hard to rr&r the head and you can check the ridge and bores for wear.
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Hi Andy,
Sounds like you have the same dilemma that I had, whether to full the engine down completely or just replace the crank seals, as with you my engine was running sweetly and seemed in quite good condition. As I had no idea really how many times it had "been round the clock" but the speedo was at 17K (miles).
I am very glad that I decided to go the whole way because I'm sure the car has sat around for many years, result cavitation in the cylinder bores, I had also thought the head, camshaft and valves were ok, but alas the head is stuffed, very soft, has been welded at some stage and had a curve from one end to the other of 3.5mm !!
The camshaft bearings had "picked up" obviously because the thing had been forced into trying to follow the curvature of the earth plus a lot more.
Also when I took off the valve cover, a tappet collet fell out on the floor, it didn't come from any of the valves, so I can only assume that whoever worked on it last dropped one, lost it and just used a spare one. Very lucky the previous owner, dealer and myself that it didn't find it's way into the timing chain.
I'm now looking for another head.
It's having a rebore and new OS pistons, bearings and all.
If anyone reading this knows how and where is the best way to attach a W113 to a rotisserie please let me know. I was thinking that the bumper mounting points would be ok, but I don't want to stress anything.
Any help would be great.
Jack
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Provided your car is solid (see my WYSIWYG post in bodywork section) then you'll be fine mounting it on the bumper mounting points. If there's any doubt about the structural integrity then don't do it.
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Having a weekend away on holiday. Quite nice to on ocassion not think about these wonderful little cars. Sitting on the balcony of our hotel in rotorua watching the geothetmal steam rise from the lake.
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Who gave you permission to take five? :D
Enjoy the break!
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First night since I can remember I didnt go to bed thinking about bead blasting 113 parts. I think I may be having withdrawl symptoms.
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Hi Stick,
Thanks for that, the body is in very reasonable condition, so will most likely use the rear bumper mountings, but on the front I intend to use the sway bar mounting bolts in conjunction with the front bumper mounts.
Jack
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Andy,
The rubber grommets, without the metal bracket part, in the top photo of your reply #231 (along the flange of the oil pan) are part number 1109970481 and are used on many, many models in various places. The actual originals were bonded onto the little brackets but can be replaced in the bracket holes by the ones I identified above. At ECS Tuning, for example, they are $3.00 US each but shipping to you would be probably prohibitive. There are four on the oil pan flange and one more that attaches with a different style bracket on the battery tray. I had to make my battery tray bracket (it was missing) out of sheet metal using the attached photo. Note: one of the grommets is missing from the photo.
Good luck.
Tom Kizer
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Thanks tom. I will get onto the loom as soon as I get home in a couple of days. I want to get that sorted quick pront and move back onto the brake lines and booster. In the mean time I will continue to soak up the holiday. Just a pity the car couldnt feature in the foreground...
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... using the attached photo. Note: one of the grommets is missing from the photo. ...
Andy
here is more useful stuff about these grommets and why they should be painted black after plating:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=13803.msg93746#msg93746
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Thanks Alfred. The rubber on mine is actually not to bad. I may just doctor tem up and reuse. One of the members pointed out that I only have four in total. Three attaching to the engine and one to the battery tray. I ended up bead blasting all mine and coated with 2k epoxy primer and then 2k satin. Ie didnt go down the electroplating route. Guess as long as they dont rust I have done the right thing.
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Back home and back onto the refit. Plenty of time on drive back to think up a plan of attack for this week. First job completed tonight reassembling the steering shaft. Everything went well. Only time consuming activity was repacking the two bearings with fresh grease. I am happy I took the time as 50 year old grease tends to go a bit crusty. Took quite a bit of coaxing to 'thumb' fresh grease through the bearing until the majority of the old crust was pushed out. The bearing at the steering wheel was quite fiddly with a couple of springs needing to be removed to gain access.
After it was all put back together I did my first trial fit up to see if the length was going to be ok. Quite a nervous moment. I had visions of the shaft having to be pulled out and lengthened again due to mistakes in my shaft shortening calcs. But all looks pretty much well mm perfect and I am certain that it will work out well. Just need to wait for the electroplating of the bolts and shroud clamp to come back and I will have a complete steering system again.
I am interested if I am doing the right thing installing the steering shaft at this point. I am wondering if there is anything that should be installed under the dash before I put this in. If anyone has been down this route before I would appreciate your insight.
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Andy,
have you looked closely at the rubber donut in the switch under the brake pedal?
It can be replaced with the steering shaft in place but it is less pain when you have more room.
See: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12083.0
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Thanks Alfred. Good arrows! I checked mine and its non existent. Would have never know it was even there. I will order up the part. Does it make a huge difference? Seems to me it looks almost like a dust cap over the switch rather than a solid stopper.
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Andy,
if your car is a rattler, then no, it would not make much difference, but if it is a quiet car as you would expect it to be after all the work you are doing, then YES! Without it you will hear a loud clunk when you release the brake pedal as George describes in the first post in the link.
It is not a dust cap but quite solid and quite stubborn to get on. Heat up the rubber in hot water and use some lubrication.
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Thanks Alfred. The only downside is I now will have to wait another two or three weeks while I arrives. Even the smallest of details can hold up the works :'(
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I am a Buds Benz convert. I have decided to spend my hard earned money on a complete Buds interior set after David, the owner of Buds, spent a considerable amount of time and helped me out with some really good advice on exactly what I should and shouldn't replace. He has saved me a couple of thousand NZ over the other suppliers I was looking at.
Dealing with the other suppliers was like pulling your own teeth with a rusty pair of pliers. None of them seemed that interested in taking my money off me. When I asked seemingly sensible question it was met with very blunt non informative answers or no answers at all. I would have thought that they would have been experts all the in's and out's of 113 interior and easily and quickly been able to sort me out. Nup!
David tried to talk me into getting new squabs. I really didn't want to spend the extra 1000USD and pushed back on him asking to justify the expense given my existing seats looked pretty damn good. He put up with my antics and worked through the problem with me, happily reviewed all the photos I sent him and made an excellent suggestion that I actually cut my seats apart to get a definitive diagnosis.
It took quite a bit of resolve to take the Stanley knife to the seats but I am really glad he talked me into it. Showed up the full extent of the degradation of the original horse hair pads and shonky repairs previous owners had had commissioned. Davids instincts/experience was right from the beginning and he put up with my naive ranting in a very patient and professional manner. Hats off.
I ordered and paid for a complete carpet kit, early horse hair squabs, leather seat covers, new door panels, leather door panel covers, 110 feet of leather to cover the dash, additional side panels, soft top hatch cover and kinder seat, and also a new German soft top. All my money from my 2002 sale went into paying for this so fingers crossed it all comes up a bunch of roses.
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Todays mission
1) Back in the bead blaster to redo some of the gold plated bits and pieces I wasn't happy with. I have discovered that if you don't disassemble components and then get them gold plated then the chemicals used in the first pickling part of the process dont get washed off properly and 'wash off' the gold coating in the latter stages of the process. The accelerator transfer bar that goes over the top of the engine is an example of me getting lazy. Its a pain to take apart with little cotter pins and circlips holding ball joints together. Its quite prominent in the engine bay so its not one of those things you can afford to screw up. Also for some reason the cast arms need special attention and if you take them right off the arm and do them separate you get a much better finish.
2) Every W108 I have stripped as well as the pagoda has had badly deteriorated heater pipes. These run under the exhaust manifold out of sight and are very hard to get to. Most of them have been so bad that holes either have already started or are just about to. If they let go then the consequences might not be to great. All the cars I have refurbished I redo these in stainless to totally eliminate the issue ever coming back again. I hand bend some stainless pipes last night and now need to fabricate and weld the short tee you see in the photo today. The stainless I have used is 2mm wall thickness so quite hard to crux. Will probably weld a stainless bead in its place to hold the rubber pipes on. Will post some better pictures when I have finished.
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Yep, you're absolutely right about that top pipe in the second pic. Had mine out to rub down and respray last weekend when replacing my exhaust manifolds. The pipe was pretty bad, but cleaned up well. I also found the much-vaunted vin no stamped on the inside of the fender on the primer, neat as can be.
It's easy to see how these pipes get in a bad state and are missed.
JH
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Hi James, I would love to see a pic of your vin. Mine is not on the fender but on the inside right chassis rail. I really tried hard when doing the paint job to somehow expose these the best I could. Because the chassis rail metal is so thick it looks as if they had problems stamping the numbers clearly on the rail. I am wondering if this is why they choose to move it to the inner guard on yours. Even with a lick of paint on mine they are not legible.
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For quite some time I have been dreading even contemplating refitting the window winding gear. They are the only parts that when I took them out I remember thinking to myself 'should I be taking more photos.... I don't think I will remember how this goes back. Today I faced my fears and dragged all the bits and pieces out of the shed and gave them a really good degrease. Don't know quite what to do with them in terms of a cosmetic restoration.
I think only a few of the bits were electroplated and the majority were just zinc coated panel steel. I may be wrong and am interested to know what all the rest of you think. Most of my bits have a light layer of red oxide all over them. I am thinking I may just use steel wool and then apply a product like POR15 metal ready to put a thin layer of protection back on them.
I am also interested to here from any of you who have refitted the regulators and how easy or difficult you found the job.
I decided to also finish off all the smaller bits and pieces that require bead blasting and painting or electroplating. I think I may have bitten off more than I can chew as I have a fairly substantial bucket of dozens of items. Probably more hours than I can tolerate standing on one leg operating the bead blaster foot pedal.
To cheer myself up I decided to do a trial fit of all the instruments. This absolutely made my day. The pictures don't really do them justice. I don't know why but silver is a really hard color to photograph and always looks quite dull and gray. The gear looks beautiful against the fresh paint and has given me a good sense of what the interior will look like when complete. I can't wait!
I threw the strange blurry pic in just for fun :o
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TOTAL DISTRACTION. For the past couple of days my focus has been pulled totally off the 113. Mercedes B New Zealand have a press release for the new S class and asked me to supply my two cars to be displayed at the function along side several other period cars. I didn't anticipate the effort required to get them into presentable condition. The black 250s in particular was stored under a cover in the same garage as I do all my painting in. When I pulled off the cover I discovered that several holes had allowed over spray to drift in and attach to the black paint work. Not good when your dealing with epoxy based paint. Spent quite a few hours 'teasing' it all off again.
Back onto the 113 tomorrow morning. In my radar 1) Window winding mech 2) brake lines.
I did drop another mother load of parts into the electroplater today.
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Finished off my painting of the latest lot of satin black parts today. Was really pleasant with the additional room. No ducking and diving around hanging parts in close proximity. I spread right out. Its really emphasized how important it is to have the right working environment. I wish I had a larger shed!!! I think if I ever do this again I wont start until I have a lot more storage and work space.
I also picked up my stainless heater pipes from the welder. I was contemplating welding them myself and have the right rods for the tig welder but don't have any argon and definitely wouldn't have made as nice a job as the guys down the road did. Cost 80 dollars for the welding bringing the total replacement cost to 110nzd (30 for the stainless pipe). Well worth the extra bother. I am not sure but am picking that the original pipes from MB would have far exceeded this with shipping added on. Will add these to the next shipment of parts getting the satin black treatment to give them the factory look. I replaced a few pipes on the 280se with stainless and didn't paint them. They stand out if left unpainted.
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Just had all the certification finalized on the shortening of my steering shaft. Quite an involved process but I am happy that I have taken the extra effort and have a totally legal and safe conversion.
For any of you that are interested see the attached report SAFE produced for the foundation of the certification request/report.
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Had a big day in the bead blaster again. Finished off all my brake lines and also half of the window winder assembly. Dropped the latest load at the electroplaters this time for zinc coating. Unpacked all the bits I did last week to discover that they have lost the saw toothed ratchet arm for the handbrake. Even though its small the only replacement I can find on the internet is 180 Euro. Ouch. I have the the guys at the electroplaters looking for it and will turn the garage upside down tomorrow.
Spent the rest of the afternoon fitting up the hubs and brake calipers. Even though its slow going at least stuff is going back on the car. Even though I have done all this before on the 108 you forget all the torque setting so I have ended up spending quite a bit of time in the books and looking at photos to figure out the correct assembly order.
Another really exciting bit of news this week is that it is looking as if my car was the very first 230sl imported new into New Zealand. The dealer records indicate that only 3 230's were ever imported and only an handful more 250's and 280's. At the recent 40th about 15 cars turned up so I guess over the years quite a few more have been imported second hand from other countries and also a few tourist delivery cars were probably thrown into the mix.
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After a couple of weeks staring at the pedal set on the bench and wondering if I should refurb it, or take the easy road and slam it back in as is, I made my mind up. It only took 15 minutes to pull apart and in hindsight I talked myself into thinking it was more complicated that it actually was.
Took all the factory paint off with paint stripper ready for the bead blaster tomorrow. I will probably also do the window winder lifters while I am at it.
Will get all the bushes redone while its apart and also sort out the rubber brake stop thats completely missing. Have also ordered from buds a brand new master clutch cylinder to prevent the new carpets from getting soiled.
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The dreaded air box/blower. Unlike the pedal set this was a hard as I thought it would be. Pretty much every nut and bolt were seized and both of the fans were rusted onto the motor shaft. I used most of a can of penetrating oil on the thing over a two day period. Had to use a bit of heat on the fan shafts to move them. I guess its more rusted than all the other components under the dash due to all the moist air its sucked in over its 50 years of use.
The only reason to pull this apart is cosmetic and removing all the surface rust. It was probably good enough to put back in. I tested the motor before I started the dis assembly and it all sounded ok on both speeds.
After pulling it all to pieces and stripping all the factory paint I am much more happy about the decision as under the paint was quite a bit of rust.
Due to its awkward shape it was a pain to paint strip. Lots of nooks and crannies. I will bead blast tomorrow and give it two or three coats of epoxy. Am picking it will be a bit of a handful to paint.
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The blower motor seems ok but is a little noisy. If anyone in here is an expert with electric motors I would appreciate if you could download the attached vid and take a quick listen and tell me if you think it sounds ok. If it is tired now seems like a really good time to fix the problem.
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Air blower and pedal set have now been blasted and painted ready for the final coat. The blower case was really tricky to paint without getting too many runs. Good practice for the final coat. Blasted all the nuts, bolts and fixtures for these and delivered them to the electroplater.
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I took the electric motor down to a specialist who gave it the thumbs up. Looks as if someone has replaced it prior to my ownership as it seems quite fresh. Mounted it back into the case and gave the fans a really good clean and reinstalled. Just waiting for all the clips to turn up from the electroplater for final assembly.
Turned my attention to the defrost ducts both which have damage where previous owners have not understood the mounting system and used excessive force trying to remove them without first undoing all the fasteners. Result ripped and torn cardboard.
Have to figure out if its more economical to repair or replace. I am thinking of using epoxy resin on the inside and outside. It should get fairly good adhesion to the cardboard so probably would work quite well. Will price up repro unit over the next couple of days.
Ouuuuch. Buds have the vents for 176 each. 352US + shipping. Anyone know if there are cheaper alternatives available.
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I'm in awe here!
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Have to figure out if its more economical to repair or replace. I am thinking of using epoxy resin on the inside and outside. It should get fairly good adhesion to the cardboard so probably would work quite well. Will price up repro unit over the next couple of days.
Use fibreglass bridging paste, it works a treat! Apply it to the damaged area and the apply masking tape to the still wet paste to smooth out the surface. Leave to set, remove the masking tape and voila, you have a neat repair that can simply be painted over and is almost un-noticeable!
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Thanks Stick. I have never heard of bridging paste. Where do you get it. I have been looking at fiberglass repair kits which are only about 40 dollars over here. Put some mesh down to reinforce the area. You know the drill. I thought that where its actually broken through, being and anchor point, will require a reasonable amount of strength. I dont really care too much about what it look like given it can be seen once installed. I was thinking of doing the majority of the repair from inside and using something like your technique on the outer surface to tidy it up cosmetically. Did you notice on my left hand one the window wiper motor arms have been sawing into it as well due to its position being dropped down because of the lack of fixing. Will sleep on it and do a bit more research. If you have done this before stick have you got any pictures of your repairs you can post to give me an idea of which way to go.
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Andy, Miller's do reproduction vents at $95 US per side if you can't repair your set.
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Thanks Greg, I will probably do that if my repairs fail. At half price that's a good option. Have you used these and if so how good are they?
Another thing I am going to struggle with is the order in which to put back the under dash components. I am thinking
1) Wiring Loom
2) Window wiper gear
3) Defrost Vents
4) Fresh Air Vents top, central and side including fixing off 3 control cables
5) Defrost ducting (round pipes )
5) Pedal Set
6) Steering Column including ignition barrel
7) Instruments including all cables required to drive them
8) heater radiator core
9) Fan box
10) Air control sliders and cosmetic front plate. Connect the three cables.
11) Radio and Clock
12) Glove Compartment
13) Front Lower air ducting that bolts and clamps onto airbox. Connect up the control cable to this with the air control slider
14) All the rest of the outward dash garnish, ie chrome side air grills dash chrome etc
Just a working list. If anyone else wants to add to this I would be appreciative. I will be refining this as I go through trial and error. Also I have probably left stuff off.
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I`m going to sit back and pretend that I`ve got other stuff to do first. Really, I`m going to wait for you to finish your assembly sequence and test it out before I begin the same project.
Tom Kizer
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The book I was reading talked about the photo and cited the chrome soft top bow which can just be made out on the higher def photo. They apparently where no longer fitted after April. I cant remember what the other feature they talked about but dated it no earlier than Jan 64. I will borrow the book and take some scans I think. It would be great to go back to the factory and lift all the data cards from Jan to March for right hand drive 113's. On average given only 10% of the production run were RHD that narrows it down to about 30 cars per month or about 100 for the duration of Jan to April. If I could nail this car down to 519 then I might be cooking with gas!
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Andy, sorry I don't know more about the ducts. I was looking at getting a set awhile back but ended up tracking down a good used set in the US. Good luck with the repair option.
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The repair paste I was referring to is Isopon P40.
You never finished the tale of the Pitman arm!
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Cheers for that stick I will look into getting some. Trick is to find a supplier here in NZ.
The pitman arm tale was finished on the bottom of page 9. I ended up finding a 217 arm (rhd 113) in the UK. It took quite a lot of effort but worked out cheaper than bending. The installed arm sorted out all the issues with perfect alignment of the drag link arm and also misses by mm's the bracket that supports the gas steering shock and the subframe lateral support stay.
Just ticked it off the to do list and moved on with the next challenge.... and with these little puppies there are certainly quite a few challenges.
On the horizon I have:
1) Fix or replace the passengers door lock (anyone have a spare old unit I can buy. Just need the lock barrel)
2) Fix the wiring loom and reinstall
3) Put back together the Pedal Set
4) Install the brake and clutch lines (electroplaters has lost one of the lines)
5) Install the brake booster/master setup. (need to hand cut a rubber gasket for alloy to firewall spacer)
6) Repair and install the defrost vents
7) Put back together the rest of the air blower box
Will stop there as I will scare myself otherwise. As Dory from finding Nemo famously said 'Just keep swimming, just keep swimming'
(http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ellen-dory-finding-nemo-2__oPt.jpg)
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Chipped away today at the air vents. Brought a fiberglass repair kit and got to work. I figured that I would need to put a repair on both the inside and outside to get enough strength.
First I sanded the surface with 80 grit around where the repair was needed. This took off all the existing paint back and prepped the surface back to bare cardboard. I figured that the epoxy gel would soak into porous cardboard and form a much better bond. I think this gamble paid off and I ended up with really solid result. In fact I probably only needed to conduct the repair from one side.
Used at least 3 layers of fiberglass mat on each surface. Perhaps a bit of overkill. I have never done this before so quite a bit of guess work.
I also took the opportunity to sort out all the edges of the vent where damage had occurred and the surfaces were starting to delaminate. Just pushed the gel into the cardboard and will wait till its rock solid and sand the edges back.
I think I did cock up a bit in that I should have sanded it while it was almost dry. Like the high tech body fillers its much easier to shape when its in this state. Get in with some 80 grit and it almost crumbles off. Leave it till its rock hard and your sanding for much longer. Will see.
After I finish reshaping it I will blow some etch primer on and then pain the whole unit matte black. I think it will come up trumps.
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A few more pics of the initial glass repair.
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I ended up finding a 217 arm (rhd 113) in the UK.
It was this bit that confused me. What is a "217" arm? Those numbers don't feature in the correct part number and there's no prior reference to it that I could find in your posts.
I ask so that anyone referring back to this thread in the future will not be left asking the same question.
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Stick, I am sorry I didn't explain it well enough. You had to go to an early post on page 4 or 5 to get the mercedes spec sheet I posted. It gives the part numbers and more importantly what mercedes call the ident number. This is a short three digit number which is stamped onto the bottom of the arm so a mechanic can clearly see it from underneath when on a hoist.
If you look at the following image I have included both the spec sheet and the arm I have just put on my car. You can see I now have a very very rare rhd pitman arm specifically designed for power steer.
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Stick, Just realized how they come up with the identification number. Please see the following image.
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Ah, OK got it thanks. I only ever work to part numbers but at least now all future viewers of this thread will understand.
Those guys in Amersham have some rare stuff!
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Started back today on the air ducts. Wish I had sanded while the gel was semi dry. Ended up rasping away for over an hour with 80 grit to get the shape right. A bit of a trade off to get the best profile and keep the repair nice and strong. Even though I did remove quite a bit of material the repair is probably about 50 times as strong as the cardboard. I could have spent quite a bit more time making the repair undetectable but decided given its out of sight under the dash just to get it 'tidy'. Hopefully I have done it justice. Finished off the repair with 400 grit and gray scotch pad. Sanded out the entire unit with the scotch. 5 coats of mat black vinyl/plastic paint. End result acceptable!
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After a morning spent sanding and painting I picked up the latest lot from the electroplater. This batch had all the bits for the reassembly of the window wiper mechanism and the foot pedal set. Had to go back to all my photos to figure out how the pedal set was suppose to hang together. All went back smoothly. Will start on the window wiper tomorrow. The main beam was painted satin black when I pulled it out. I suppose I should make the effort and duplicate this.
I do need to source some new felt and sticky back rubber to replicate all the gaskets and padding on the air vent system. Not quite sure where I will get it from.
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That pedal set (and air ducts) look really great. I love it when someone takes great care of the cosmetics (and function) when retoring parts that will never be visible after installation. Keep up the great work!
Hans
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Thanks for your kind words Hans. I think I may be a bit anal retentive but do like to give everything a crack to look and function correctly. I would at this point of the restoration love to have enough money to just go and buy that just isn't an option which is why I contemplate repairing most of this stuff. The satisfaction level is definitely higher and I have saved myself about 400 dollars with the air vents alone. Total cost of the fiberglass repair kit and paint 35USD. Total cost of brand new air vents from Buds + postage 420US. Time to complete repair about 3 hours end to end. Quite a good hourly rate!
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Shall I send you a bill? ;D ;D ;D
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Very funny Stick! Tell you what if you can make it to my house by Friday night the beers are on me!!!
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Andy I totally concur in that doing as much as possible as yourself. I gain enormous satisfaction from this approach. I wish I was as far down the track as you are but I love your thread and all the priceless information you're giving me or my own restoration ! I asked my girlfriend if we can make it to Auckland on our visit in February and she was all for it !!! So don't be surprised if this Aussie lobs on you one afternoon !!!
Cheers, Joe
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Joe would be lovely to see you. Give me a bit of notice and I will make sure I am home with cold beer in hand (NZ variety of course :P)
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Have spent today concentrating on seals on the air blower, felt on the air vents and other rubber gaskets on the firewall which disintegrated when I pulled stuff apart. Quite amazing when you pull stuff apart how you underestimate the small stuff. Just cutting the new brake booster gasket took half the day by the time I had driven half way across town to find the right material. It took ages to source .8mm sheet rubberized material. You would also think cutting felt would be easy but even with very good scissors I had problems. Ended up using a guillotine to get nice straight edges. Will post some pictures of the finished air vents after I glue up all the felt tomorrow.
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I couldn't resist this one when I saw it on ebay a few weeks back. Same color scheme. "Mini me". Just had to have it. Will look good sitting on the bonnet of the real maccoy when I finally finish up.
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Putting back the pedal set today and revising the diagrams I have noticed that I may be missing a rubber boot. I am hoping someone can advise me if I need it or not. The brake pedal pin that passes through the firewall and actuates the brake booster is shown in EPC as having a boot. Strange thing is when I google the part number, A 1132920097, it is shown on a few sites as being a boot for the clutch master cylinder.
Anyway it kind of makes sense to have a boot here as with out one the pin kind of flops down with gravity out of the cup in the pivot arm located in the aluminum block bolted up on the engine bay side of the firewall. If there is indeed a boot then I am picking its purpose is primarily to center the pin against this arm.
The pedal set is now back in the car so I am a bit be-loathed to haul it out again. If anyone has had experience here I would be most appreciative for any tips.
Have had two huge days on the car with the wiring loom back in and the rest of the sound dead material installed up under the dash. That was a total prick of a job that I am happy to have behind me now. Will try and post some photos in the next couple of days. Not that interesting so I didn't take to many pics.
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Some pictures of the template work for the new firewall insulation pads. I am still undecided if I will put another layer of a product called fat mat over top again. This is a new modern sound deaden material which would far out preform any of the old tar based products. I don't really like the idea of it as it has a very non original look but at the same time want a quiet car. Am interested to here from anyone who can give me some comparisons.
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Some more pics of the progress. The window wiper mech back in. Replaced the felt gasket that goes between the bar and the back of the firewall.
Also spent quite a bit of time polishing up the baker lite fuse box cover. This was really tatty when I started with layers of over spray from two or three paints jobs ago. It was also quite discolored and faded compared to the inside which had never seen the sun. So I sanded it back with 2000 grit sand paper and then used a fine paint cutting compound which brought it back to quite a new appearance. Pretty happy with the result.
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Hello Andy,
A nice model you have there … I tryed to get the same size, however, they did not have it in my colour so I settled for the smaller one with the Pagoda roof.
I see your project is moving right along … great stuff. I know you have many followers … I'm just one of them.
Nice work! I can only imagine how it will feel once you are done and take your first spin :)
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Have been searching all afternoon for two small metal brackets that secure the air blower vents. I think they have gone missing at the electroplaters. Very simple part stopping me from putting back the dash in my tracks. I have been on the version of EPC I have and cant find the part. Does anyone know what the part number is so I can see if I can order some more. If anyone has some second hand ones I would love to here as well. Otherwise I will have to manufacture some which will be fiddly getting all the length correct and welding the captive nut to the thin plate.
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Installed the heater core today. Finished off the refurbishment of the core with the final gluing of the sealing foam and also the installation of the valve. Used lots of plumbers grease to ease the valve body in. It was initially very tight so I gently sat and operated it for 20 minutes or so which made a big difference. Last thing I want is broken levers. Also managed to find another set of the lost brackets so bead blasted those and delivered to the platers. Fingers crossed the majority of it will go back this week. Have landed a new job (yes I will be paying my subs as soon as I get my first pay packet) so not as much time this week to work on the old girl. Will have to work during the evening to gain any traction for the next couple of months.
Will post some more close ups of the refit if anyone is interested.
Have also been working on my under dash refit sequence. Am fairly certain I have it correct so far. I have already made a few mistakes and had to take things out due to be sequence so hope I can help anyone else tackling this job.
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Congratulations on the new job!
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Yes, Andy, that's great news on the job; apart from the fact that progress on the car will be slower now.
I have a question on an item that you posted on a while back: the bitumen mats on the floor. You had mentioned you planning on installing those, for the sake of sticking close to original.
On my car, I've just stripped down the driver side floor and removed the old bitumen and cleaned up what rust there was (it was in remarkably good shape, apart from the very front edge where it had rusted moderately due to years of leakage. I'm now trying to figure out how best to recover it. I ordered a bitumen mat from SLS and it's turning out harder than I thought to install it; I'm using a propane torch.
Can you give me some pointers on how you did yours? Also, I think the key to these things is a good bond between the metal and the mat, so that water will never reach the metal even if it manages to get into the floor compartment. Any thoughts you have on this would be helpful.
Thanks,
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Hi Meyer,
The stuff is a real pain to put in. The most important aspect is to make sure the mating surfaces are absolutley clean. If they are not the matt will just pull away and not do its job. I would recommend that you use a solvent to get off every trace of the old bitumen and leave a smooth even surface. I would also recommend that while your at it you take the opportunity to further protect the floor pan. The factory protection was inadequate with in my cars case only a very thin coat of body color over the sheet metal protection. In my view not enough and probably the reason these cars all rusted so badly in this area if any moisture gets in. It will take you a couple of hours to sand the area back with 150 grit and paint on some really good rust prohibitor. Make sure if you do this you pay extra attention to the joints.
In regards to the matting the key is to get a good template going. Dont get impatient or you will end up with either a mess or wasted mat. Once you stick it down if you have to pull it back up, for any reason, it looses quite a bit of its stick. So careful placment is the key. I also didn't pull off all the backing but only a small section. Then when you have it lined up and the first piece in place pull the backing from behind and stick it lightly as you go.
Once its in the correct location and your happy with it I used a heat gun and a small wooden roller. The latter is crucial for it sticking long term. I spent quite a while on each sheet going over and over with the roller. I didn't find the heat gun that usefull to be honest. I really only made use of it over the transmission tunnel where the shape got really funky. On the flat floor pan the roller and your fingers should be fine.
Be carful with the heat gun if you do decide to use it as it doesn't take much to turn the bitumen to mush and you end up with a mess.
Another trick I used on the floor pan was to give it a quick spray with Ados xtra strong F2. Especially if your floor pan isn't perfect. Let it tack off and then put down the matt. It really gives the bond a much better chance.
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Hi Andy
I'm on a train heading up to Edinburgh and to pass the time I have just read all
13 pages of your thread.
Fantastic work equal to anything produced by motoring Investments and shows what's achievable ....
I bet your glad to see the back of that blast cabinet...I also spent a week in front
Of one of them breathing powdered glass dust for hours on end....horrid horrid work !!
The air vent repairs are fantastic... Keep the pictures and the commentary comeing.
Dave
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Cheers Dave, thanks for your kinds words. I would never however claim that my resto is up to the same standard as the pros. Just a back yard tinkerer really. I will be over the moon if nothing major falls off when I take it for its first test ride. ;)
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Thanks for your quick response Andy. After reading it, I realized that the bitumen mat you used was quite different from what I have. There's no backing on mine and no sticky surface to it. The bitumen is also mixed with some kind of fibers and is quite resistant to heat. With a propane torch, it gets gets soft but does not melt into a near-liquid (like the original stuff did when I removed it with a torch). It's not clear whether this new mat was intended to be glued on or stuck on by heat. I think it's the latter, but I've written to SLS to find out for sure, and I'll figure out what to do then.
I did spend quite a bit of time cleaning up whatever rust was there and putting on some rust-inhibiting paint, so I think it's well protected. I also expect that the next 50 years will also be much easier on the car than the past 50. No more wet carpets, at least while I have it.
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Hi Meyer,
I am interested to know if what you have taken off the floor is the same material that SLS provided you. I took samples and did quite a bit of research to replace with very similar products. The floor pan was a solid bitumen mat around 3mm thick with a very thin plastic skin. It has a pattern pressed into it. Up the firewall mine had a different product which I believe was identical to the material used to produce the firewall pad. This material was around 8mm thick and as you describe has an almost padding or wadding structure. It had the same diamond pattern pressed into it as the firewall pad. I am wondering if it all changed over time as the factory chopped and changed the materials used to improve various aspects of the car. I took several closeups of my floor pan before I pulled all the material off. Am happy to post pics if it will help.
If you dont care about originality I wouldn't use any of this material at all and go for a modern high performance lightweight product like fatmat or dynamat. Much easier to put in and much better heat and sound inhibiting properties than any factory type product. I have thought about this quite a bit and think I will glue the fatmat to the back of the carpet so I dont trash all the nice tidy work I have done on the floor pan. At the end of the day its easier to replace the carpet than the floor pan material. This seem to be a tactic that Mercedes adopted in the W108 cars I have pulled apart. The carpet have a moudled sound deadining material glued to the carpet. Its incredibly thick at around 15-20mm. I guess the S class had to be much quieter given its luxury status. Can post some pics of this if its of interest to you as well.
Cheers
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Your description of the original materials is exactly what I removed from my car; both the bitumen on the floorboard and the pad on the footwell firewall area. Both were damaged by water infiltration over the years. There was some rust, but it was not terrible, compared to other pictures I've seen in this forum.
The SLS replacement pads are not the same. For the floorboard bitumen, the replacement is about half the original thickness. As I mentioned, it's not pure bitumen; it has some fibers mixed in. It's also more heat resistant. It doesn't liquify like the original did. Rather, if you put too much heat to it, the fibers ignite. I received a response from SLS. Their intent is that you mold it into shape by heating it, and then you glue it on, I guess with your own glue.
Based on all this, and what you've said, my present plan is to apply the SLS pad as they suggest, but then use Dynamax on top of that. I think the SLS pad with glue will do a better job of keeping water off the floorboard, if water ever does get in there.
On a separate issue, I was thinking about your car. I am curious: when you're done, are you planning to drive it or sell it? I ask because in your shoes, after having spent so much time getting everything just right, I'd have a hard time driving it. I think if I wanted to drive one, I'd sell it and then use half the money to get a good driver.
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Hi Meyer, another tip I forgot to mention to you is that you should put down the floor board material first and then apply the firewall pads so they overlap the floor mat. Reason being that if water does run down the firewall, and really this is the only place it does come from, then instead of dribbling down and running into the seam and under the floor mat, it will be directed onto the top of the floor mat. The matting really works against you in terms of rust protection if water can get under the mat. It has a waterproof top membrane so will retain the water further causing you issues with rust. Likewise with the fiber type mats you could run into issues if the material acts like a sponge. In the latter 108's they used closed cell foam to overcome the problem. I think it is inevitable that you will get further leaks in the cabin. Before I pulled mine apart I was getting water in even when washing the car. Its so hard to know where the water comes from sometimes that this type of rust prevention is actually much more cost effective that trying to track down the leaks. I think a major contributor to the leaking problem is often worn or deteriorated rubber which is often a nightmare to replace. Things like the rubber seals under the window wiper spindle nuts or all the rest of the firewall grommets. Its not until you pull them out that your realize how poked they are!
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Thanks Andy, I had already come to this strategy for configuration of the mats; and I agree completely with it. In the original arrangement, this is exactly how the water ended up getting under the floor mat and causing damage. And yes, I typically got water in during car washes, not so much from driving in the rain. Luckily, the new firewall pad is a bit longer and will direct water onto the top of the floor mat. I'm pretty sure that between the new arrangement and being more careful when the car gets wet, that I can pretty much ensure that the floor boards will never see water.
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Hi Meyer, I have been pondering you question all day regarding the use of the car after I finish it. I think I will keep it but at the end of the day everything has a price tag. I don't think the car would ever command a high price as it wasn't professionally restored. I think reputation is king. Prospective buyers would likely be put off by a back yard restoration but I am picking if I keep it long enough they may well increase in price so significantly that a new buyer may well have it restored to a higher level and pay a decent amount for a good base. I have a few car so hopefully I will get to keep it and take it out on special occasions. I did the same level of restoration to one of my W108's a few years back ( www.flickr.com/andyburnsnz ) and have only driven it about 200km in the past three years. Quite ridiculous really. I tried selling this but couldn't even get 18kUS for it so just decided to keep it as a piece of art in my driveway. This gave rise to my theory about amateur restoration. Quite a few tire kickers all trying to drive the price down with the fact it wasn't done professionally. Perhaps my kids will thank me for my efforts in 30 years time when they are worth a small fortune.
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Andy, I find what you say surprising, but plausible. I'll let others who are more knowledgeable than I am comment on your theory of reputation being king. I would have thought that there are knowledgeable potential buyers would be able to judge the quality of restoration for themselves. Also, I think anyone on this newsgroup who has followed your progress would say that what you don't have in name, you well make up for in time, effort and meticulous attention to detail.
If what you say is correct, you could consider trying to get the car sold on consignment by a high-end Mercedes dealer to whom you could give a percentage. Possibly their name would allow you to sell the car for a much higher price, making the commission acceptable.
One of the reasons I mention this is that, when I was looking for my Pagoda, 20 years ago, I initially came across it at a Mercedes dealer. I quite liked it and was considering buying it, but felt they were asking a bit much. So I kept looking. A few weeks later I saw a private ad and, when I went to see the car, it turned out to be the same car, for about 20% lower asking price. I did not let on I had previously seen it, and on talking to the seller, I eventually understood that he had had the car with the dealer on consignment. Of course, I was very happy to have the opportunity to buy the car for a more reasonable price.
I could see the psychology of getting the car sold by a reputable dealer could make an important difference if the pool of buyers is less knowledgeable, and the item in question is a car in pristine condition.
Anyhow, my suggestion is that, when the time comes, you try to sell it; see what you might get; and then decide whether it's worth it.
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Meyer, I did try selling my 108 on the international market. I advertised it on Ebay UK and also a couple of classic car magazines. I had quite a bit of interest, including several phone call at 2am in the morning, but no takers. I also considered putting it to auction here in Auckland but ended up selling the bmw2002. To tell the truth I would dearly love to build a really big barn and keep them all. I got pretty close to that dream a couple of years back but found myself without work which very quickly threw a bucket of ice cold water over that good idea. It is very very hard seeing these beauties roll off down the drive with another owner after spending thousands of hours on them.... especially galling when you average out your time and your working for less than the minimum wage! The gold W108 in the photos I believe is very special. It has absolutely no rust and has 99% original fitments down to the carpet it came out of the factory with which still smells new. In comparison my 113 is an old pig that has been cut and stitched in about every nook and cranny you choose to look. It has been a very hard and long road to get it to this point and unless I got a lot of money I cant see the point in relinquishing it. At the same time I just don't think a discerning buyer who does due diligence on it will be fooled into thinking anything other than it is a good home restoration. I have parked my W108 up against top level restoration and until you have that type of benchmark it is easy to over estimate what you have achieved. I do very much appreciate your kind words though. Its guys like you that keep my spirits up! Restoration at home can be a very lonely and demoralizing activity.
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Geez Andy, I hope you are restoring your car cause you want to drive it. Selling is just an ending so don't expect much. The restoration shops generally experience "economies of scale" with proper tools, experience and absolutley amazing know how.
Having restorected a couple MGBs, a couple BMW 2002s and several hondas I quickly realized that restoring a car as a business and restoring it to have fun in is miles apart. I decided not to restore my 280sl and instead took the position to resurect it - stitching metal here and there, cleaning, fixing, pondering, measuring over and over, and replacing. Its all fun becasue I realize that my car was bought by my father 25 yeras ago as a fully restored California car. The price paid was for a restored car but there was chicken wire and newspaper holding bondo in shape, there were wood screws drilled into the sheet metal because the proper bolts were busted off, there was clumps of bondo made to replicate sheetmetal - and that was from a professional restoration????
All of the issues have been fixed by myself using countless drills, taps, easy outs, couple bare sheets of galvanized sheet metal and 2 small rolls of welding wire. The floors and sills are water tight, the doors don't pop open in corners anymore, the gaps are as good as I can get, the wiring harnesses in the dash are back to stock and the various holes around the car are covered up with new metal stitched in place.
I did a calculation and for purely entertainment purposes as compared to say going to see a movie, I am farther ahead with 200 hours playing with my car rather than sitting and watching 100 movies with buttered popcorn (say $25.00 each time) at $2500. My time is free so as long as my car doesn't go down in value I am at least $2,500 and several inches around my waistline ahead.
...And driving in the early morning with the top down with a warm breeze coming in off the ocean - Thats priceless.
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Hi Ian,
The reasons for restoring it started off wanting to drive it. I honestly did not expect that it would consume so much time and money. As a result some of the 'gloss' has been taken off the project. I may well feel completly different after the car is finished but while your in the middle of dozens of mucky problems you often cant see the light through the woods. I am only just beginning to enjoy the project.
Turning that corner where you start to put parts back on the car is a breath of fresh air but I still have quite a few challenges to get it back on the road. The interior is terrifying me at the moment. The boxes of raw leather hides have just turned up in the last couple of days and I havn't even started on the engine yet. The hours now are hovering at around 1700 and I am certain that even the interior refit will push to around 2k to the point where I am happy.
I am certain that I will drive her when all is done and dusted.
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Andy, I have to echo Bonnyboy's sentiment. I didn't want to impose too much my own views, but I agree that the driving is the part that makes all the fixing worthwhile. In my own case, I've studiously avoided getting too carried away with perfection, because I thought I would then be reluctant to drive. I really enjoy working on the car; but I also really enjoy driving it. I don't think I'd be able to really enjoy one without the other.
As for my earlier suggestion that you sell this one, pocket half the money, and get yourself a driver that you wouldn't be afraid to drive, it was motivated by the sense that you might end up being afraid to drive this one. If you're brave enough, as Bonnyboy advocates, then by all means, drive this one. But one way or the other, it would be a shame to have done all this work and not end up driving.
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Andy,
I have seen many cars that were done "professionally" that I would not touch. I think the car at the end of the restoration speaks for its self. Does not have to be perfect. Now I am doing my second one, with the first Pagoda (which came from Scotland via NZ) was not done to sell but I made a decision that the second one I had was the keeper and the first one went about two years ago to help pay for the fix of the second after working on it for about 6 years.. I learnt a lot of lessons from that first car.
I also totally agree that the joy will be in the end driving it. I am sure it will not disappoint you. You have got the heater core back, that is the start of getting it all back together and from what I have seen on your posts so far you are way past half way and i actually think the interior is the easier part. ;)
Garry
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Time will tell.
I aggree with you both about having a car that your not scared to drive. My BMW2002tii was by far my most loved vehicle ever. Took it out in any condition, picked the kids up with it, did the shopping in it and then drove it to occassional track days. It was however a different type of car. More one that was meant for the common man. It was somehow meant to be race rallied and rolled. The pagoda on the other hand was a expensive, high end, luxury cruiser from day one. As such the 2002 in my mind lends itself to having more patina than the pagoda. People who in general seem more forgiving if you know what I mean.
Come back and check out this thread in a years time and see where the journey take me. I guarnatee you all that I will be driving it. After this restoration I have promisied my wife that I am going to take a break for at least 5 years. I have been continually restoring for the past 8 years. This is the third car. I dont honestly know why I do it. The motivation is more like the challenge of a giant gigsaw puzzle than actually using the cars when they are finished.
I also view these as works of art more than a functional object. I get probably more enjoyment wandering into the garage and just looking and appreciating them. I often go and just admire the curves or even things as mundane as the door catches which give rise to the trade mark mercedes thunk. I compare like for like designs with my modern cars and still marvel at how well they were put together. The meaterial they used and how well they have aged. MB tex is my favorite example of this. Clean it up and it could have just been driven out of the factory. Genius. The devil is in the detail as they say.
The OCD side of me has also come out. Snow ball effect after you start tarting stuff up. Its hard to draw the line on where to stop. If you have a prepensity for perfection its a very difficult thing to start bolting old tatty looking gear back onto another pristine surface.
I have in hidsight really enjoyed studing how the designers put these cars together. Effectively reverse engineering the car has been by far the most enlightening part of the journey. I guess the attraction is just a persuit of knowledge type of scenario. What good the knowledge is to me and what I might use it for in the future is a different matter.
Human motivation is a complicated topic. ... we are all different.
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Have been very lazy lately with my updates sorry guys. I have actually almost finished the under dash assembly, radiator element, heater box, side vents, central vent flaps, cables, loom clamps, all new firewall seals. Been working after I get home from work. To shattered at the end of the day to take photos.
I did take a video of it all and actually put it to some xmas music but havn't found a way of putting it up yet. Limited to 4Mb download and my movie is about 100. Might upload it to youtube if I get time.
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Hi Andy geeze I enjoy reading your thread ! That alone is priceless for me !
If you want you can pm me and I'll get you to upload your video to my dropbox and then I'll try it reduce it for you for loading up here....
alternatively using windows movie maker save it for a portable device whereby it will shrink it right down....
Rgds, joe
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Cheers Joe, really appreciate it.
On a more amusing topic we have just replaced our beautiful old golden retriever who died of old age some months back. When selecting the new puppy of course the pagoda had to be factored into things. I never told my wife of this intention rather guided her toward the same end goal. 1) Had to be German of course 2) Had to be small enough to fit nicely on the kinder seat 3) Most importantly had to match the color scheme of the car.
I deliberated for quite a few weeks on these very important points and after many nights of research settled on what we picked up on the weekend! I found perfection in our new miniature schnauzer. Salt and pepper color and once clipped will lighten to a wonderful silvery gray hue. I shouldn't really use the word perfection. If the breeder had described the color as MB180 then I might have been able to make that claim.
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My Pagoda xmas video update in now uploaded. To view just click this link http://youtu.be/h_n6ta0GFGY (http://youtu.be/h_n6ta0GFGY)
Hope you guys enjoy it. A bit embarrassed about my other project vids. Very geeky but worth a laugh!
Happy Xmas 113 Org !
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Fantastic vid Andy, The car looks really really good.
Garry
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Great video :) :)
Maybe I will get to see the car next time we are over to visit our daughter?
Merry Christmas!!
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Thanks Larry and Gary, am happy you guys enjoyed it! Larry would be great to meet you and your all welcome to come and catch up if your ever down this way.
Cheers
Andy
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Nice video… also watched your other video's… what mesh RF solution are you using with a 1km range?
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Andy,
Those of us who cannot take our cars to such levels for any number of reasons are living our pagoda restoration vicariously. Looking fantastic. Enjoy the holidays!
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Hey Peter, the mesh moudles I am using are Synaps RF100. They also offer a RF200 with external antenna which has up to a 7km line of sight range while only consuming 80mw. Quite incredible little devices. They have derived thier own flavour of Python for programming.
Kampla thank you and I am happy I bring you some sort of joy. Love sharing. It a big part of the journey for me.
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Very nice indeed. Very festive with all the shiny silver and gold and black bits.
And to do all of this work on a tile floor - you must be good.
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Ian, I feel quite bad about the tile floor. Its taken a bit of a pounding this year. Most of it is recoverable but when your welding if you dont cover them the ceramic actually melts when welding shrapnel hits it. I ended up buying a fireproof board to try and save it. Think when all is done and dusted I will pull up the effected area and replace with some reaplacments I held back when I laid them. All in all tiled floors are fantastic. Much more durable than painting. It actually cost me less than painting as well. Sourced them on sale at my local tile depot and laid them myself. Killer on the back!
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Nice work Andy.
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Andy, that video has me almost in tears. The car is beautiful and this thread will continue to provide me incentive and inspiration to continue my restoration. You are a few weeks or months ahead of me.
The music you chose for the video is some of the most incredible I`ve heard. It reminds me of the folk music from Atlantic Canada or from the Scotish Highlands.
Is that traditional music from Aukland?
Anyway, I love your video and your background music.
Tom Kizer
Québec City, Québec Province, Canada
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Hi Tom, the music is a very famous song called Fairytale of New York. Its sung by the Pogues and Kirsty MacColl and is widely know the world over. Its the lead singer is well know for having no teeth through falling over after drinking too much Guiness! I would love to see some pics of your car. Perhaps you could start up another thread with yours for us all to see. I kinda get sick of seeing my own one. All the hours of staring at it you start failing to see the beauty that lies beneath.
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Another great story for you guys. Have just had a wonderful visit from my friend Ken this afternoon who decided to buy a 230sl. He found one all right, a 64 left hooker. But the sale came with some conditions. He had to take it along with 57 220 cabriolet as a package deal. What a deal.
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Just love those 220 Cabs, isn't the wood dash glorious!
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I also admire the dashboard of the 220 cab.
How would the 220 cab drive comparing to the pagode? Slower, but more quite and comfort? Anyone knows?
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Andy, thanks for the RF module info. I do similar messing around projects with RF and Arduino's, hooked into little SBC Linux computers. Wish I had your skills on cars though…
Have great holidays….
Peter
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My xmas has come early. All my interior and other bits and pieces are continuing to arrive in big boxes from the good ol USA. Its great getting the nick knacks that you need to finally finish things off with. I have been waiting for the rubber handbrake boot for what seems like an eternity. Will spend tomorrow unpacking and checking everything.
Some of the genuine Mercedes bits have been a bit disappointing and have surprised. A handbrake cable that I pulled out this morning had no metal protection in places and will undobultey rust very quickly when it comes into contact with water. I will probably send it out for re coating. Not to worried as I really dont need it for quite some time and I have more batches from the engine to do. May as well.
Also finally finished up my air vent with the felt being cut and glued. Can bolt these up today as well. Its so hot over here at the moment I had problems yesterday with the contact adhesive going off within what seemed like seconds. At least summer is finally here!
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Andy,
Looking at your photo and comments on the rubber boot on the hand brake made me think that I don’t have it on my car nor did I on my 280. Just had a look and no not there. Always thought it looked a bit unfinished. Just learnt something new. :o
Do you have a part number and where did you source it from.
Garry
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Hi Garry, I think the part number is shown in the photo. I got it from David at Buds. From memory I had to request it as it wasn't shown on their website. I think it cost around 20 dollars US. Quite a lot for a small piece of rubber but after so much effort went into the rest of the brake lever I had to have it. I have seen quite a few 113's in the flesh and in photos and the brake lever seems to be one part that never seems to get restored. Surprising given its prominence in the cabin. It will look really sharp up against the square weave carpet.
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I noticed on another thread this morning that it had been picked up from my xmas video that my shock cups have installed the wrong way up.. or down in my case :-\
I have been relying on my huge collection of photos pre assembly and EPC to help me with the rebuild. In this case I used a photo of the car the day I got it to determine the orientation of the cup. It seemed sensible and natural to me to install them like this. The lip of the cup 'retains' the rubber stopping it from bulging keeping its shape in check. The suggested reason for installing the other way up is increasing metal to metal clearance.
I measure up yesterday and have about 5mm of clearance. Given the rubber is compressed I cant see this being an issue but I am interested to know if anyone has seen issues with them faced down like I have done. More than willing to swap it 'that was how Mercedes did it'.
If you guys see me cock things up, which happens frequently, I would really appreciate if you could post up here rather than on other threads where I might miss your very valuable suggestions.
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Just sayiing that the concave surface of the shock washer should be up is perhaps an oversimplification. I don`t know what all the history of the shock mount changes has been but there are four different sketches of the upper shock mount in the BBB. Two have the washer concave surfaces up and two have the washer concave surfaces down. My '67 230SL has 10 mm shafts with Bilstein shocks, so they are concave surfaces up. Check out the BBB sketch below.
The following is a quote from page 32-3/2 of the BBB. "Shock absorbers with a piston rod thread M 10X1 have no spacer tube. The dish of the upper cup must point upward."
Tom Kizer
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Awesome info thanks Tom. I will be looking into it further and will probably turn mine up. I know its a 10mm thread and it hasn't got a spacer so going by your chart was installed wrong to begin with. I still would love to know the technical reason they did this. I guess its still an interference issue. Interesting to note the right hand most option they mention bad road conditions. I guess if you start hammering the shocks over an extended period the rubber might start to go off and then you may run into interference issues. To be honest mine aren't even bilstein at the moment. They are monroe.
Another quite interesting story which may spark a bit of debate in here. I have a very good friend by the name of Wim Le Roy. He is a retired Belgium gentlemen I meet some years ago here in New Zealand. He came over here from Europe 15 years ago to retire. With him he brought his collection of several Lancias and Alfa Romeo's that he has restored over the years. He was obviously a very talented engineer having rebuilt all his cars himself. From the outset we sparked up a great relationship based on the mutual love of restoring these lovely old girls.
Anyway I never really delved too much into his past other than knowing that his retirement was payed for with a life long career as a top level executive for a large corporate in Europe.
While I was in the throws of pulling apart the 113 Wim made regular almost daily visits for a cup of coffee and his daily progress update. One particular morning he turned up and I was lying on my back removing the rear shocks. Just as I stood up with it in my hand Wim asked me my intention for it. He had clearly identified it as a Monroe. I had grown up putting Monroes in as an extreme cost cutting measure that had to be taken when you were 16 with no money. In my mind they were not well regarded for either performance or reliability.
Anyway my response to Wim was along those line. I also casually hurled the shock into a bucket of parts that I intended to bin right in front of him. We carried on our discussion and I was non the wiser to what he was actually thinking.
I didn't here from Wim for quite some weeks after that. I also know his son Robin very well. Robin also picked up the bug from his father and has a beautiful lotus elan 2+2 and a 1950's fully restored Alfa Julietta? After asking Robin why I hadn't heard from his dad for so long there was a long uncomfortable pause where upon Robin spilled the proverbial beans.
In fact Wim served over 20 years for Monroe initially as one of it senior designers and then in upper level management. Sinking gut wrenching hole in the stomach moment ensued. Foot in mouth I plucked up the courage the next day and phoned Wim and apologized so effusively that my tongue had worn the skin clear off my lips. Wim was very humble and accepted my apology. Within a day or two our normal catch ups resumed.
Herein lies the bit you guys may find a bit controversial. Wim did however take the time to sit down and explain that in his opinion that even though bilsteinare a great shock absorber that in the shock absorber world there rock star reputation may in some instances be somewhat over blown. He then started gushing a ton of technical detail about the shocks I had just discarded and started contrasting them with the technical aspects of the equivalent . bilstein. I twas painfully obvious that I was not going to win any argument when a real macoy shock absorber engineer was sitting at my dinner table.
We talked about it some more in terms of what I was going to use the car for. His down to earth common sense logic cutting me down at every point of debate. The car is not high performance, handled well before it came off the road, shocks dont leak or show no signs of wear. Why go out and spend 700USD for no good reason. The only answer I could come up with was 'cause I want it to look right'. I reflected and very quickly came to the conclusion that I was starting to look and sound like Paris Hilton on a bad day. Perhaps I should go out and buy a matching handbag dog to match the car as wel :P
We went and hooked out the Monroes from the rubbish bin and with a very skilled eye he established that they were almost brand new and assured me that the performance of them would at least if not match better the performance of the bilstein. The price difference he put down to corporate mentality and mass production. His knowledge and conviction were very very persuading and as a result I pulled the other three shocks out of the bin, cleaned them up and gave them a fresh coat of satin paint...... to look like a bilstein.
So for the time being the Monroes are back in the car. I have stopped short at trying to manufacture some fake Bilstein stickers and hope that no one gets to close up and persona to notice. Will leave my stealthy little secret here with you guys.
I am interested in what you all think about this. In relation to the cups I wonder if the turned up cup is a bilstein thing? Will be asking my friend Wim when I see him again this week.
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Thanks Andy for the great story !!
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I wonder if the turned up cup is a bilstein thing?
Well, if you look at the illustration 32-2/6 and 7 in Tom's reply #344; there is a clue there for the reason behind the inverted (upturned) cup.
If cup was the other direction, there is a real chance of metal to metal contact, when rubber is being compressed (e.g. going over bumps).
/Hans in Sweden
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../.. there are four different sketches of the upper shock mount in the BBB. Two have the washer concave surfaces up and two have the washer concave surfaces down
Well, the illustration 32-2/4 and 5 in Tom's reply #344 show the upper shock mounts for (early) Fintail cars 220b, 220Sb and 220SEb. These cars later on had 10mm dia rods, and upturned cups, just as our W113's.
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Andy,
Continued great story in this thread of all your hard work! Hope you take some time out for the Holidays …
Happy Holidays from up here to down under :)
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Cheers Rolf. As they say 'no rest for the wicked'. I will be working through the holiday to try and make a bit of money. Will be trying to fit in some restoration in the gaps. A little bit every couple of days is what the doctor ordered. Just keep it ticking along. Today I clear coated all my hard lines. Ie the brake fuel and oil lines. Will post some pics latter. Enjoying a few beers in the sun with good friends at present.
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Guys thanks for all your help today. i will be looking closely at the upturned shock washer issue this week. In the meantime I am hoping one you guys can help. This might be a right hand drive specific question but I will throw it open to all of you to see if anyone can help. Here we go...
I have pouring through my photos today trying to determine where all the pipes and wiring penetrate the firewall. I think I have everything sussed other than the temp sender wire through to the instrument cluster.
Check out my attached photo which shows where I think everything goes. Frustrating as I want to close up the chapter on the dash install and currently this is the only thing standing in my way of nailing it. Any of you right hand drivers I would really really appreciate if you could trace the wire back from the engine block and tell me where it goes through the firewall.
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Andy,
Here are the photos of my firewall and where each of the items goes through.
The first photo is the driver side entry for top being main loom then oil then temp
Second following to the RH side upper
Third to engine,
Forth the lower accesses on RH side for Tac, Speedo Washer and bonnet release
Hope that helps
Garry
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Thank Garry. Great photos! Will run with your scheme.
I am interested to know if your car is fully restored and if so did you pull the loom and all the control cables completley out of the car when the work was done. I am picking looking at the quality of the paint that you did this.
I am almost ceartain that mine was never touched given the red and then gold overspray over everything. Will post some pics tonight of the way mine was when I took it apart. A few differences from yours. I guess it doesn't matter too much as long as everything fits and works ok.
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Andy
Have not fully restored the car, it was in reasonable original condition so I had just about everything out of the engine bay and all the front end before respraying it, including all the cables, had some rust hole repair under and near the drain holes and then repaired/replaced/repainted or recad the whole shebang including a complete engine rebuild but not transmission. (it won the MBC Concourse for best engine bay this year) I am still working my way through the interior and awaiting some more leather samples from GAHH to get a good match before going ahead with the interior that is not that bad but I have decided I will do the seats and replace the soft top, already put in new carpets.
Garry
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Gary it does look beautifully finished. I wish I was a bit closer. Would be great to come and see it in person.
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Garry:
I know you got the carpet from KHM.
Any reason not to use them for the leather, or are you just comparing samples?
Thanks
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Interesting question,
I got samples from them and they are a good match but the cost is about 40% above what GAHH are offering for both the Soft Top and leather and the shipping is nearly double. so I am seeing if there is a decent match with GAHH. if not then its KHM if so then its GAHH. Really just a dollars thing as I have been very happy with KHM in the past but I note that many of our members also find GAHH to be good and I have seen some of their interiors and they apperar good as well.
Garry
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Guys, another option which I choose was to order through Buds. It all seems to be a bit secret squirrel but buds then farms the order back to GAHH. They then ship it directly from the GAHH factory. The really strange thing is that Buds can supply GAHH carpets about 20% cheaper than GAHH. Go figure. Bulk buying power I guess. I also did the same with my softtop, raw leather, seat covers, new door skins, door skin covers. All cheaper through Buds. I have received half the order and so far all is ok. When the next boxes arrive with the carpet I can take some pictures showing you the GAHH packing slip. Worth a mention. I think all up it saved me 1200 off what GAHH were will to sell it to me. Better than a kick up the jaxy!
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Here is a prime example of how the restoration process can snowball. I have been fitting up the firewall cables this afternoon after work. I cleaned up the tach and speedometer cables and put them in place with the new firewall rubber. All good!!! Then I went to install the bonnet release cable. Started looking at the grubby ends with tatty gold plating. Fitted it up and bolted it. Then took a step back and looked at it against the new paint. Normally I would just slam it in but somehow the prospect made my guts turn. One thing leads to another.
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Here is a prime example of how the restoration process can snowball. One thing leads to another.
Yes, Andy you're driving total renovation, which does not allow for shortcuts.
This is my first input into your thread. First of all I would like to express my congratulations and respect for the work you are doing. To be quite honest, I find in your descriptions my own feelings that were with me during my 2.5 years long restoration of my Pagoda . Later may be a better opportunity to enter once again and share them with you to support you a little.
I also enjoed your Christmas video - is great. I noticed on it, however, that the "famous" metal plate behind the grill has not been covered in satin black paint. There are a few such places to cover in black. Is this an intentional action at this point, or is it just an oversight? I'm sure you know that this is an important element to mask appearance of the body paint in this place.
Dariusz
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Hi Daria, thanks for your kind words. Would love to see some of your restoration photos. Start up a new thread or post them in the photos section. I never get sick of pawing over pictures.
I do know all about the blacking out of various parts of the car. I am deliberately leaving it till late in the piece to avoid damaging it during the install. I believe its hand brushed on at the factory and as you pointed out is applied to body paint the can be seen through the front grill, all around the air vent on the top of the dash and on the transmission tunnel behind the seats. Any other locations you think I have missed just sing out.
I also understand that it is suppose to be hand brushed as well. This sort of goes against the grain a little bit with me. I think I might ignore this bit of originality in favor of getting some paint to key hard to the existing paint. I am interested in how you applied yours. Some photos on this would be good. I have pawed over the motoring investments site many times looking at this .
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Andy, I knew from the beginning that you have this knowledge. I just wanted to make sure you have not forgotten about it, starting to install first parts to the engine compartment. Mistakes happen, but now I know that everything is going according to plan.
My black inserts are made "originally", that is hand brushed as well.
(https://picasaweb.google.com/dkdariodarek/MercedesW113Pagode1967250SLAssembling#5953802604098785474)
(https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zryA8BFxtHSYluDA88moDNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink)
(https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zryA8BFxtHSYluDA88moDNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink)
Already joined pictures from my restoration in thread "New member introductions" but there is no problem to be repeated here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/dkdariodarek (https://picasaweb.google.com/dkdariodarek)
In the "restoration" album in the section about suspension, you can see one picture with Monroe shock absorbers prepared to mount on the front axle ... ;) - in reference to the previous posts of the selection of shock absorbers.
Dariusz
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Dario, beautiful workmanship on your. Hats off. I hope I get a result approaching what you have done. Certainly will give it my best shot. Did you restore this car for yourself or is this your job?
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I just made a big mistake. I went on the site that Dario provided for his restoration photos. Now Ì am completely depressed. To restore my car to that level (all the tiny detail) would take me an extra year and another $50,000 US.
Congratulations, Dario, on your magnificent restoration.
Tom Kizer
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Thank you both for your kind words about my work. Tom, I'm sure that you bring your work to a happy end sooner than you think. Andy, to avoid clutter up your thread I will answer briefly the question. This car I made for myself, my job is something else. Everything as a hobby and love to the beautiful old design and engineering. The second project I would do now cheaper, faster and more accurately. Of the approximately 50 people who I met on the project, I would like to continue to work with five, maybe seven. The rest is a market rubbish.
Analyzing your pictures, the quality of which you restore your car is absolutely top. Additionally you mount everything personally. In my opinion there's not half of the work left, but less than a one third. And the most pleasant, when you start to see results.
Dariusz
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DIFFICULTY LEVELS
Having finally plucked up the courage to " Cost " my 230 SL Automatic project, its been disheartining to read this thread. As a rank amateur, and a hopeless novice ...I will recount the history of this project I bought whilst, on a trip to Ohio, from England. It was way back in 1988, that I noticed an Ad for this 230sl ( RHD), placed by the widow of an Airman serving with the US Airforce, stationed near Ipswich England. He had taken his car back to Ohio, and his family had attempted an awful restoration ....resulting iin a fire that damaged the vehicle. To cut a long story short, i did buy the car, which had suffered damage to the hood ...but was drivable. I drove the car ,and after a 3 day trip, with intermittant and constant problems with the fuel injection .... finally made it to New Jersey .... My mistake, was becoming more apparent by the day ..and i proceeded to have the car shipped back to the UK, as i just could not find a buyer. I have had it sat in my garage, since that time! Each decade, my reluctance to commence the project, was on account of this cost deficit. The restoration cost far exceeded its market worth, and more importantly the possible damage to my finances!!
As i read the 900 man hours it would take to restore the body of the car .... at £ 20 to £25 an hour ...that equates to £22,500 .... Parts, and further work to the engine, gearbox would be about the same? Not that i have ever had the desire to sell .... I need to have these guesstimates confirmed. The Car has history with the Merc dealer in England upto 60,000 miles ...and I now have a car that had a confirmed 75,000 miles on the clock. The soft top is like new ...the BecKer Radio and all the instruments are insitu .... Corrosion is extensive around the sills ..and the damaged hood, and front end needs a complete new set of parts.
My landed cost was $6500 ..... a sum that has long been written off. Many dealers have made demands to break her up, and cannibalise the Car ... Not me .....I am about to retire ...and sinking funds for a deserved cause, motivates me .... Or is it a foolhardy venture?
Lg ( North England )
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Hi Lg,
The reason my restoration has taken so long is due to my lack of professionalism. I am sure it would have taken half the time if its was done by a skilled tradesman. In saying that these cars are now very expensive to restore.
The parts are not cheap which is why the only way I could ever dream to get this back on the road was to have a crack at restoring everything possible. If I had gone off an replaced all the part with new ones the labor costs would have reduced significantly. If I had paid someone else to restore all my parts it wouldn't have been economical as well. I have leveraged off my free labor. If you have a lot of time on your hands and are keen to learn then I would say that its achievable. You have to be committed. If you start pulling these apart and then loose interest you are in a bit of trouble.
I think also looking at the soaring prices of 113's that even if you spent 50k on yours it would probably still be a good investment. Another very important aspect is how good is the body. Its where all the time and money is in my opinion. If you have a largely rust free body your probably in a good position. Mine was fairly good but still required quite a bit of time and effort to sort out.
Why dont you post some photos of your car in the photo gallery and ask all the members here what they think. There are people in here with a life time of knowledge about these cars. My experience only goes back 12 months so I am still on a very steep learning curve with these and may not be the best person to direct your questions to. I am more than happy to help if I can but would hate to steer you in the wrong direction with bad advice.
At the end of the day if you love your car and want to restore it to keep for the rest of your life then I would say go for it.
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Nightmare with New Zealand Customs
For the past couple of days I have spent hours battling my latest issues. This time its not with the car but New Zealand Customs department. My shipment of interior parts, well over 7k into total, have now been delayed for week due to a slip up that Bud made on the packing slips. Initially they boxed everything into two cartons, the smaller of which made its way to me with no problems as all. The second just vanished into the ether.
Finally I went back to David at Buds and discovered it was sent back to him from the US postal service with a note explaining it was too big. He split the box in two and sent the on their way.
When they finally turned up in New Zealand a week or so they were for some reason held by Customs. Being xmas customs is totally inundated with incoming xmas boxes as you would expect. As such I spent a good 45 minutes on the phone just trying to get through to find out what was up with the shipment. Don't you love those corny jingles they play on answer phone systems. After about the 15'th loop I was almost ready to slit my wrists.
When I finally got to speak to someone it all became clear. Buds in had inadvertently messed up the manifest on each box and instead of itemizing what was in each box and working out an appropriate value had just slapped the entire order manifest duplicated on each of the two boxes. So from customs perspective the boxes instead of being 1500US each were now 7000US each. That pushed the shipment from their perspective into a commercial classification and now required me to get a customs broker involved to clear the shipment.
I explained the situation to a very unsympathetic Customs officer who promptly explained that I would need to pay the tax on the indicated 14k and seek a refund when I could prove that a mistake had been made. Great, just what I needed. I got off the phone and explained to my 9 year old daughter, who had been sitting and watching the pained expressions on my forrid, that santa might not be so generous this year.
I decided not to give in an spent a couple of hours yesterday on the phone with customs. After speaking very politely to a couple of their team I hit the jackpot and got through to a very nice lady who seemed open to a bit of sweet talk. Within 10 minutes we had agreed on a sensible amount of tax to pay and a new invoice was issued and paid. Instead of 14k I now only had to shell out 1500 which made my daughter, and Santa, very happy campers.
So fingers crossed I will have my full interior all sitting ready for the fit out safely in my garage.
Just another example of the degree to which these restorations can test your patience. The order process through to getting all this gear safe and sound has been quite a major exercise in its own right and not one to underestimated.
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Phew!! :-\
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To answer LG,s question on the cost of a restoration the answer is you
Get what you pay for .... When you decide on a full 18 month restoration
As opposed to a running refurbishment it's a whole new ball game.
You will go to bed and wake up thinking About the car ... Ask Andy !
It will either make you or break you but you won't get much change out
Of £50.000 UK .... That's if you have the skills to do the work yourself
To the required level. if you have Rust stick a other £20.000 on top.
You get what you pay for with these cars...
I am the tightest man I know with money but these are the sums I
Will eventually have spent restoring mine to levels approaching
Darios,s car. This is on top of a £25,000 purchase price.
I'm not going to break even but I am loving every minute of the journey.
If I had farmed out a lot of the work I would have been looking at figures
Even higher .To restore these cars in the UK to anything like the standards
Motoring investments or Brabus knock out you would need very deep
Pockets.... The € 200000 price tags are there for a reason and it allows these
Profesional Restorers to go the extra mile.
Just my 2 pence worth .hope you enjoy the journey as much as I am.
Dave
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It finally feels like Xmas. This morning I slept in and was awoken by my wife offering me a nice cuppa coffee. Half way through the coffee she announced that 'Santa had something for me under the tree'. The mailman had come and finally delivered my 'Missing in Action' interior boxes. Needless to say I didn't finish my coffee. Still sitting here cold and half finished on the bedroom side table.
I did contemplate waiting to xmas morning to open the boxes but my excitement got the better of me.
All in all I am absolutely over the moon with the product. GAHH gear is awesome. Will go into the reasons in my next post.
I do have one problem I need some advice with. They were told I had an early 230sl and I instructed David at Buds to ensure I got the correct bottom seat pad to suit. What I have been sent I am not so sure.
Looking at the seats I took out of the car they match up with the supplied seat covers but the seat pads have a asymmetric scollop cut out of the side of them. I have done some searching on the site but cant find a definitive answer.
Using my common sense I think the seat pad is going to need building up to remedy the situation. I will ask David to see if I actually got the correct pad but thought I would throw it up here and see if any of you guys can shed some light.
Other than this problem the seat covers look amazing with quite lovely precise craftsmanship in the sewing and construction. I guess the proof is in the fitting. I think looking at the construction I will give fitting these a go as well. It really looks as if you cant go wrong with no additional sewing required.
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Andy,
There were two types of seats for the 230SL that GAHH sell. First was the straight sided base and the second was the one with the scollop out of the outer side.
I believe they are known in the GAHH catalogue as A Type for Straight and B Type for the scolloped one. You may have only got the straight type and need the scolloped type.
I have just ordered a set and specified Type B
Garry
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Hi Garry, thanks for the reply. Did you mean to say that I got the scollop sided base but needed the straight? I am assuming that the seat covers are also come in version A and B and are different to reflect the scallop as well. If so I cant quite cant work out why they would ship me incompatible seat cover and squab combination. I am just clinging on to some sort of hope that I don't have to get into returning parts.
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They have had a bet each way by sending you straight sided seat leather and the scolloped cushion.
Here is a photo of the seat in mine with the scollop for the tilt lever and knob. Mine is a ’65. I am not sure when they changed them either to straight or from straight. These are the leathers I am changing out after Xmas.
Maybe someone can chime in here or hunt through the photos and see if there are any straight sided seats that will give you at least an earlier or later date for the change.
Garry
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Thanks Garry, That has confirmed it in concrete for me. Looks nothing like my early one. Why oh why oh why wouldn't the vendors chime in and say 'you might have problems with this'.
Not so much thinking about buds but more GAHH. Its their industry and I would like to think that even if a customer inadvertently ordered the wrong gear they would be quick to point out the implications.
The upshot to me is that I might now be at least a month backwards on the seats and probably a couple of hundy to send back the pads. Arrrrggggghhhhhhhhhfhhhhhhhhh. Might go and have a few shots of whiskey.
Its so nice when everything fits out of the box.
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All in all I am so happy with the stuff from GAHH. The carpet set fitted like a glove. I had a trial fit up done in about 10 minutes. The crap I got off ebay took hours and hours to even resemble fitting.
I don't know how to describe the relief that comes after paying a small ransom for this stuff to when it turns up and just melts into place. I am certain I will have no problems fitting these myself with minimal nipping and tucking required. Am blown away at the fit. Perfect GAHH. Hats off! Anyone else thinking of a carpet set, I can now rubber stamp Buds option as being right up there for price and quality.
The set I got of ebay was a disasters in comparison and would have required a very skilled auto trim guys hand for at least a day or so to get right. I have almost absolute confidence that, given I sort out the seat pad, I can fit the entire interior if I take my time. I will probably temper that and say I will take advice on the tricky bits like the instrument console where the curves are difficult and if you screw it up the job look like rubbish.
In any event I am a 95% happy camper. Just got to keep pouring acid on the seat squab problem and I should get the result.
As a parting gesture I have left you with an example of what I got from my trade me purchase for your careful scrutiny and viewing pleasure. See last pic
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A good lesson for others that we have a “eBay and Vendor Experiences” section in the Forum and within lies both some good experiences and some bad experiences.
Those that don’t heed the advice, do so at their peril. I think we have all been caught at some point. The big ones like engine rebuilds and interiors are almost critical to a good outcome and a penny saved is so often a pound lost
Garry
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Thank you Dave and Andy. I am in process of assimilating all the information posted on this site. Reading and researching helps in better appreciating how one tackles, this enormous task. Its a credit to everyone contributing, that such a resource has evolved. I shall now continue reading, working out the sequence, of scheduling work, and listing reliable suppiers, of parts etc etc. Being an accountant by trade, I need to get a handle on projected costs. The work that has gone into some of the completed projects, is an inspiration. I shall post photos of the Car, in its present state. At times its difficult to appreciate the task at hand, without seeking an opinion ...from people who have actually seen their projects through!
Has anyone out there prepared and documented a " Schedule of Works " ? I appreciate that each project is unique. Its clear, that for this Car to receive a sympathetic and quality restoration, will need as near a complete restoration as one can imagine. Reading for many hours the assesment of many of the posts ....I rank this Car at 3 to 3.5 out of 10, in terms of condition. My saving grace, is that it is RHD (for driving in England) ...its complete ...has every original part on it. Corrosion is evident behind the sills ..... and for not having been driven for 22 years, is a worry too, especially as to the work, the mechanical parts will require.
I am sure I am going to be a nuisance in checking with members as i proceed, for reassurance, and constructive criticism/support.
Lg
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Hi Lg,
I tried to put together something resembling a schedule of work when I first started. Its quite humorous looking back it now realizing how naive I was. With these cars in particular I have found it not the things that you can obviously see that need attention that cost the money, but things that lurk deeper that aren't so visible that end up catching your budget by surprise.
Take for example what you may think is rust in the sill. It could just be the easily removable over sill which is cheap as chips to replace. But if you have to start pulling the structural sill panels apart its a whole different ball game. Personally I wouldn't touch a car with structural rust as the complexity and cost levels would go bazerk. I
Even the small things during the reassemble have caught me by surprise. Small clips and fresh bits of rubber here and there all add up to quite a sum. Also the ever rising price of parts has caught me out as well. If I had know I could have saved a whole bunch by buying up a year ago.
I think your better off just getting the car appraised to ensure its a good solid restoration base and then mentally put aside 30-50k and go for it.
Why dont you organize to get your car on a hoist and take a couple of hundred pictures of the underside. Usually this aspect of the car is like the proverbial canary down the mine shaft and will give a good indication to the condition of the rest of the car. It usually overlooked when crappy restorations are done. The rest of the car might have a nice shiny coat of paint hiding a multitude of sins where the underside tells the real tale.
If you put up some decent photos here there are dozen of folk who can offer some very good advice.
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After a nice relaxing week off I managed to drag my lazy ass back into the garage today to get going again on the engine bay.
Spent all afternoon fitting up the hard brake lines that run along the firewall and under the booster. A job that needed to be done before putting the booster back in. Took quite a while to get all the pipes back into the same position as per the break down photos. I am so glad I took pictures. It would be impossible to commit to memory all the small details.
I knew the final fit up of the booster was going to be tricky. It took a long time to pull it apart. I ended up installing and pulling it out three times until I got the sequence right. I would hate to have to work on this if the engine was in the car.
Think I might put the steering column back in tomorrow. I am not sure if it will get in the way with the interior refit but will risk having to haul it back out again if the gamble doesn't pay off.
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Get yourself a copy of January's "Mercedes enthusiast"!
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Hey Stick, whats in it. An article on how frustrating 230sl brake boosters are? To be honest I haven't bought a car magazine for years. I have hundred in boxes I have kept from when I was a teenager back in the 80's. Hope you had a great xmas. Have you been working on any of your own projects in the break?
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I went to put my steering column in this morning and after a bit of reflection decided that it was a bad idea and way to early. I also discovered another stupid cock up. I had only put felt on one of the two air vents. The one I hadn't finished, but installed in the dash, was now caught up behind the pedal set. I didn't fancy pulling out everything I had done yesterday to gain access so decided to glue up the new felt in situ. I sweet talked the wife who sat for 20 minutes upside down in the cabin pushing the vent as far through the dash as possible and quickly glued on the strips that I had cut a few weeks back which had been sitting in plain sight for me as reminder to finish the job. I felt like a right plonker! All in all it came up well though and sure was a better solution that pulling out the booster again. Getting the dash sequence correct is critical. If your not ready with all the bits and pieces either you will be delayed or, if your a little OCD like me, have to pull it all apart again when you start to loose sleep over the 'parts you didn't get right under the dash'.
The cat found the whole process quite humorous and at one stage took off with one of the strips of glued felt. I dont know why but he has recently taken more than a passing interest in the resto and every time I open the garage door he makes his way in and sits by the bonnet. Quite nice to have some company while you work.
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Another stuff up I made 6 months back was not covering all the factory earth points before I painted. There were a couple under the dash and also in the engine bay. Now with five coats of paint over them I had a fairly difficult job to keep it tidy and looking factory. I decided that it was a smart move to practice under the dash first before moving on to the more visible engine bay equivalent.
It was also going to prevent me from getting the dash back together so made perfect sense to tackle before the steering column went back in further restricting access. I decided to try to mask a round area and treat with paint stripper. I knew I would have apply stripper several times to get through the paint layers. Was a bit worried the stripper would get under the tape and not give a nice crisp edge.
Was also terrified I would get the stripper on the dash or touch the outside of the car with it on my hands. I decided not to wear gloves as a type of canary down the mineshaft approach. I would much sooner get a chemical burn than not realize stripper was on my hand and touch an outer panel as I clambered out of the car.
All in all I got a good result and didn't have any nasty accidents. Better safe than sorry.
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Now for the exciting part of the day....
Managed to get two of my instruments mounted up and finalized. Starting to feel like I am making some progress. To get the speedo in I think I first need to get the column back in as you need the access to get the ignition barrel back. Realized that to do this I probably need a new chrome barrel surround and rubber as they have small tabs which seem to fold around the back of the dash sheet metal. Can anyone let me know if these can be put in latter?
I also need two new bulbs. As I have been installing I have been testing bits and pieces out including these. I am contemplating going to LED light. Has anyone had any experience with these. I am a bit hesitant to move away from factory but know how hard these are to change when they blow. I am also not certain how LED go in terms of the dimming mechanism.
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There was a recent thread where 66andBlue mentioned he redid his instrument lights in LEDs:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19084.0
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Anyone fitted up the Mexican seat pads to an early 230sl?????
I was hoping to do them my self but now realize with the modification to my seat pads its probably best left to the experts. I took the lower pad and my old seat down to an auto trim guy and they pointed out that the problem I will run into is that underneath the pads they have 'pockets' which slip over the frame. He is a bit afraid the frame on the 280 is the same shape as the scolloped pad and the entire pocket will have to be cut off and reconstructed to make it work. If there is an easy and tried and tested way of doing it I would appreciate the advice to avoid any monumental cock ups.
If any of you have had any experience with it I would love to here. I am more than happy to take heaps of detailed photos as I go along for anyone else contemplating this.
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Andy!
A Happy New Year to you. :) :)
The last hours I have been reading your great story and I feel ashame of my own little skills in comparison to the really great work you have done so far to your car.
Your '64 will be turning out terrific.
As to your seat problem, yes you are right that the seat pad (rubberized hose hair) and narrow early style seat covers (used up to serial no. 002926) do not match. To my knowledge the early type seat pads 113 914 0014 are nowhere available; neither by the factory, nor from any aftermarket supplier (like GAHH).
As such we early-seat-owners have to live with compromises.
You have got several choices:
1) Go and convert to the "late style" (from VIN no. 002927 on), later pads & later covers. In this case the problems remains that the large spring frame of the seat cusion frame needs to be replaced as well because for the later seats it follows the scolloped area. >:(
Me personally I don't like that choice. :P
2) Keep your old seat pads or get them repaired (if possible). Probably the best choice.
3) Try to rework the new pads with the scolloped area that it matches the old seat frame and old & new seat covers. This might be a hard job.
If you decide to follow 3) compare very well with each other the old and new pad. This will indicate to you where to go. The new pad is wider than the old one.
Therefore, not the area needs to be reworked and widened which you have indicated on your last picture but the area which is scolloped. This needs to be made narrower. Talk to your trim guy which about his thoughts on this.
(At least for one of my seat sets it appears as if I may keep the old pads ...)
Good luck & keep us informed,
Achim
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Hi Achim, Merry xmas and new years to you to mate.
I pretty much had come up with the same three options as you pointed out. Number 1 is out of the question in my mind as I really really want to keep it original and early. I have also already purchased the early leather seat covers.
I am tending toward repairing mine, your option 2. I am sure they can be padded out to rejuvenate them.
I think the minute you have to lop off the pockets that actually hold the seat covers to the frame you will be subjecting yourself to all sorts of hurt! I can imagine they supply all the lateral support and if are not present your pad would potentially move much more on the frame than it should.
The frustrating thing is that GAHH are more than happy to sell you these pads with but supply no general instruction on how to modify them to suit. I have now sent two emails before xmas which have both gone unanswered. I will give it a couple more weeks in case they are all on holiday still and follow up with them. If they cant give me a reasonable description of how to do the job I will be sending them back. Otherwise I am 500US down the gurgler.
Will let you guys know how I get on. Yet another example of how nothing on these cars is straight forward!
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Spent this morning prepping for the steering column install. Quite a bit more to this than I had anticipated. I went back through all my photos and discovered quite a bit of felt was required between mating surfaces presumably to prevent creaking and rattles.
Once I got this out the way I started reading up on how to get the shafts all centered correctly so the indicator cancellation cam will be in the correct place. Still researching this. Looks as if i will have to make up a tool to center the power steering box. Also still need to research if I can install the chrome bezel that goes around the ignition barrel after the install.
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More frustration tonight as I went to fit up my new manual gear shift repair kit. All of the bushes were fine with the exception of the two front stays. The other 10 were mint but I decided to order the entire kit to just get the two I needed. All the bushes were a fantastic fit other than the two I actually needed. I have no idea why they are much wider, see photo, but can only assume it may be yet another example of early 230 vs latter 250/280. Anyone recognize what bush has been supplied and why its different to mine?
Moved onto the fresh air vent. The new rubber was very loose and needed to be glued in place. The rubber was genuine mercedes so I guess this is how its suppose to be. Waiting for the next batch of gold plating for the brackets to bolt this up.
Before I get here I need to to sort out the cables properly as well. The have all been re greased and are in place but I discovered I have lost one of the cir-clips which secures the heater vent cables. Need to figure out where I can get some more. Am hoping they are quite standard. Anyone had any experience with these. I tried to loot my donor W108 but it has different clips with a larger ID.
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.../.. it may be yet another example of early 230 vs latter 250/280. Anyone recognize what bush has been supplied and why its different to mine?
Andy, The literature seems a bit cloudy, but in the early 230SL parts book 10 097 the end piece has No A111 260 0253 and the bushing No A111 992 0210 . The change over to those PartNumbers is at chassis no 4926.
The 250/280SL parts book 10 202 give end piece No as A111 260 0453 and bushing is A111 992 0410. I enclose a [borrowed] picture of the latter type end piece with bushing, you can see it is wider and the bushing type you acquired will fit there.
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans, that makes sense. This bush looks as if it gets most of the use of all the shift bushes, and given the early ones are about 1/2 of the thickness would wear pretty quick.
Will go back to buds and see if they can help with either the early bushes or latter rod end. Thanks for the info.
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Hi Andy, Rodger here. The 'tool" you want to centre the poer steering unit is a bolt 8mm diameter x 1mm pitch sharpened on the end. If you wait until Monday or Tuesday I can bring one over because i am at the stage of setting my own one up now.
Turning to the gearbox, assuming the gearstick it the same as the 280SL, If you haven't already replaced the two shaped plastic"washers" the secure the top and bottom of the ball on the gear stick I strongly suggest you do it now. Mine had disintegrated when I bought my car and were fairly hard to replace with gearbox in car.
Finally I am painting all my power steering parts, assuming these are finshed in matt black too?
regards
Rodger
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Hi Rodger, indeed I replaced those bushes. The ones I took out were almost new but I decided to replace them all the same. I am interested in if you lubricated the nylon/teflon before you installed. I smeared some teflon grease over the ball before I put mine back together. Not sure if its the right thing to do.
I also made one of those power steer centering tools when I put my W108 280se back together but have lost it in the abyss that is my garage. I must confess I am a total pig and my garage is often in a pretty terrible state of affairs. I am often totally embarrassed when showing friends through. I sure makes it hard to find things!
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Am having terrible troubles clamping down the clips located in compartment just below and in front of the windscreen which hold the two vent cables. I even went and purchased a set of pliers with a 90 degree bend to see if I could get some good force to get the clip secured.
I am wondering if the additional paint I have applied to tab has caused too much interference with the cable. Perhaps I should try sanding off some of the paint?
Another peculiarity I observed when I pulled these cables out 8 months ago was that over top of the clip it appeared someone had smeared a really thick tar type product. I am wondering if anyone else knows if this is factory or perhaps its the last owners attempts to resolve the issue I am experiencing getting the clip to home on the tab.
I am expecting if you guys haven't pulled these clips off that you will be rubbing your head with confusion over my explanation, but if you have pulled the cables you will more than likely have experienced the same niggly problem.
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Yes, Andy,
That's correct.
I found that same tar-type material on my clamps as well during disassembly. Especially around the rubber grommet but less on top of the clamp.
Maybe the factory applied that for better protection against incoming water into the clutter box or to better fix the cable, so that the outer part is tightly fixed and cannot move.
Just my guess ...
Achim
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STEERING SHAFT REFIT
Finally have managed to get this sorted after quite a bit of research. A few little quirks for right hand drive confused the hell out of me. My big blue book I have must be specifically for the LHD marked and discusses various reference marks being 180 degrees out for the RHD locations that I actually needed to know about.
Specifically the LHD has the indicator stalk on the left side of the steering column and RHD's on the right. The centering cam on a LHD sits centered at 270 degrees while RHD it should be 90. There is a mark on very end of the steering column used to get this spot on. The steering column shaft must be the same part for both LHD and RHD subsequently the LHD mark should point directly up to get the cancelling cam in the right position where the RHD vehicle I believe should point straight down.
I havn't actually read this anywhere. It not in the blue book and I did a quick search on the forum this morning and couldn't find any reference so I am going off observation and common sense when making this statement. If I have stuffed this up or got it right I would appreciate some feedback. Rodger is doing a power steer conversion on his car so will also need to be aware of all this stuff. At the bare minimum this should give you a good idea of what to photograph during the removal of your shaft/steering column. I wasn't aware and subsequently have taken a disproportionate time feeding the column back into the car.
Other than this issue the rest of the installation was quite simple. The ignition barrel slipped back in with no problem. I think attention to detail with cleaning all surfaces and a small smear of grease helped a lot.
Hopefully I have it right and the thing doesn't need to come out..... if I have cocked it up feel more than welcome to poke fun at me :P
Decided not to put the new indicator stalk back in to prevent any damage during the interior refurb. It was tempting to have it in place for 'look' but cost so much I think its wise to play it safe and install last.
Really want to put my speedo back in now but I think I need access to get chrome bezel around the ignition barrel. Anyone replaced this before.
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Andy,
I know that I and many others have benefitted from your daily journal of restoration activities! I wonder, do you have a photo album (Flickr, Shutterfly or something similar) containing all of your images that can be accessed by others?
Thanks so much for sharing your progress and setbacks.
Lin
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Hi Lin,
I do have a flicr account www.flickr.com/andyburnsnz but I have reserved this for the finished products. I also have litterally thousands of high res photos of the 230 taking up a massive amount of disk space. I dont think their are any free services that would accomodate the entire collection. I could be wrong. Also time is my enemy at the moment. Working my normal job 8 hours a day and then trying to do 3-4 on the car I am quite spent and am struggling to even get the time to put up the pics on this site. If you or anyone else request specific photos I am happy to go the extra mile though. Just let me know.
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Andy I'd love all the pics. I bought my pagoda as an unfinished already in a 1000 pieces project. I'll need all the references that I can get to get mine back together since I have no before pics. There's quite a few ways to share them but all take time so I recognize this. No easy answer unless you could find some time to purchase a usb memory stick (and I pay you for it or I buy one and send it to you) and dump them on that (pretty easy, cheap n quick) and send it to me and I'll work out where or how to share them. I'd need to know the size of memory stick needed though.... just a suggestion to make it easier for you...
Rgds, Joe
PS. there are also quite a few programs around that can quickly and easily reduce the size/resolution of pics...
http://www.snapfiles.com/freeware/gmm/fwgcomp.html
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Hi Andy
Your right about the small unseen detail and refurbishment that soaks up the time.
I've spent the past week refurbishing the under dash heater core, blower
And vent assembly's in readiness for the start of the rebuild.
The fibreglass bridging paste smoothed out with masking tape
Idea was fantastic for tidying up the tops of the papier mâché vents.
Also the tiny sneaky hidden grub screws that hold the rotary fans to the shaft
Took some finding ( think I need new specs ).
While its all still fresh in your mind it would be helpfull to write down
The rebuild sequence from a bare shell. ... It's been 18 month since
I stripped the car... I was gonna put loom in first then wiper assembly,
Heater core etc...etc...
When you finish under the dash cold you write down the sequence please.
Love your posts ... Keep it comeing .
Dave
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Hi Dave,
The rebuild sequence from a bare shell definitley isn't a fixed checked list. I have been working on all sorts of systems all over the car. Its really good if you get frustrated with one part of the car to have another area to work on as a 'cool off' strategy. I am the type of person that if I cant see progress, after spending the time, I start to get really angry at the world!.
To be honest I am now just using gut feeling and common sense to figure stuff out. ie stuff that is furtherest back under the dash first. I have had to take some stuff out a couple of times but nothing major.
Even under the dash you can probably put things back in dozens of different sequences. Some are probably easier than others but in the big scheme it probably will only add a couple of hours on even if you pick a less preferred sequence.
Just last night I installed the speedo, which I thought would be the easiest of the guages but as it turned out was actually the hardest with the least hand room. After I had finished I stepped back and started asking myself 'what next'. I looked at the top of the dash and noticed the two large holes that take the studs that come out of the wooden trim. Playing the devils advocate I went over installing these in my head and then went and investigated the hand room left over after all the other stuff I had installed.
Initially I freaked out a bit as looking up from the floor panel you could no longer even see the holes and certainly from that angle no get a hand in to tighten anything up. I freaked out a bit as the thought of pulling all the guages out again wasn't a pleasing one. Went away had a good cup of joe and came back with a cool head. Looked at the problem again and discovered you can reach in through the radio cavity and get your hand up diagonally behind the guages just enough to touch the holes.
I am sure it will be hard, everything is on this car, but still possible with a bit of patience. I am not sure if the dash and wood needs to go on before the guages are installed to meet the 'optimum' install sequence. I may never know if my hand contorsionist trick works to get the dash wood securing nuts back in place. So even though I can give you the benifit of my experience it may not necessarily be an optimum solution.
Another tactic that I have employed to good effect is to categorize all my photos into sections each in thier own folder. Then I copied them all to my smart phone. While I am actually under the dash I can pull it from my pocket and locate the related pictures really quickly. I found that prior to employing this tactic no matter how much I studied the pictures the night before I missed heaps of small queues. Worth its weight in gold.
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TAIL LIGHT REFURB - PART 1
Decided to have a break from the interior to day and concentrate on a job I knew would take all day. The tail lights had been in my thoughts, in a bad way, for quite some months. When I took them off there were only two thumb screws on one side and a couple of nuts on the other holding the the metal bulb holder cans in place. The previous owner had replaced both the left and right lens with brand new late model 280 amber units. These must be somewhat different in profile as the studs that protrude through the body were not long enough to reach through the bulb holder cans.
Previous owner had bent two of the bulb holders tabs just enough to take a couple of nuts. The only solution was to replace the studs. I sourced some stainless rods and went to work getting the lengths correct. Quite a bit of trial and error went into this and I must admit I had to remake quite a few studs out of error. Total time for this little chore ran to about 2-3 hours.
Next task was the one I was dreading. The metal bulb holder can on both sides had a fair amount of rust. I am guessing but am fairly sure that both are original with just the lens replaced.
The original unit was bright zinc electroplated. I took the units into my plater and he threw up his hands and didn't want to touch them as they had pressed plastic and quite a bit of solder. He gave me the option of desoldering both units but still was a bit dubious of the clear plastic window. I decided that as a replacement would cost me drug money to just not risk it and come up with an alternative solution.
I mulled on this solution until this morning when I took the bull by the horns.
To make matters worse when I was doing the initial inspection I discovered that one of the bulb holders was broken. The entire leg that was rivitted to the case had broken off. I saw the tills a ringing. The Scottish side of me came out and I set about a cunning plan to save myself another 800US
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TAIL LIGHT REFURB - PART 2
I tossed up if I should try and mig weld the arm back on but from experience knew that with old thin sheet metal welded to pot metal used to cast the bulb holder, I would probably end up with an atrocious mess.
I decided to use an awesome product called Q Bond, which I may have mentioned previously. Its got me out of so many holes. Its a two part product where you sprinkle/shape a granular substance onto the surfaces you want to secure. You then apply a bonding agent quite similar in smell and texture to superglue. Instantly you get some kind of chemical reaction, complete with puffs of smoke, and the bond is made.
Its incredibly strong. The amount I used would probably hold 50kg's and more than likely is much stronger than the original two rivits holding it in place. The only gotcha with this product is that the surfaces have to be absolutely clean or you may not get a strong result. This meant I had to remove all the rust. I did this with my mini bead blaster. Really handy for this sort of work. At the same time I masked all the bakerlite and clear perspex and gave the rest of the unit a quick once over to prep it for paint.
Before I painted I gave all the bare metal a couple of coats of metal ready to give it just a bit more protection against rust. Hopefully its enough!
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TAIL LIGHT REFURB - PART 3
Cleaned up all the rubber seals with a light wax and grease remover. I am a bit scared of using heavy solvent on rubber in case it melts. They came up ok and cosmetically look much brighter/newer than when I took them off. Just a word of caution, the rubber around the metal bulb holder can is very delicate and is also glued on. I needed to take my time and very carefully coax this off so it didnt break.
I used ados F2 to re glue the rubber. Without it the cleaned up rubber just fell off and would have been a nightmare when it came time to screw the units up.
I gave the bulb holder cans three coats of a ceramic paint designed to coat brake calipers. The color and sheen is quite close to the factory bright zinc. I also figured that it going to be fairly durable if its designed to stand up to heat and the harsh elements associated with the braking system.
Once that had cured I also blew on a light coat of 2k clear for good measure.
Result... well its not as good as the original but still fairly happy to put it back on the car. Also given the ridiculous costs of the tail light assemblies I feel all that more comfortable about my decisions.
I think I will start on the head lights in the next couple of days. Fingers crossed I dont find any nasty surprises.
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Hi Andy,
Great project keep it coming.
With reference to your rear lights, your lens and bulb holder are incompatible, the
later lens has plastic bulb holder with the bulbs in slightly different positions to
align with the lens.
I guess if you can make it work it will save a heap of cash! ;D
Cheers
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Hi Larry, you are spot on about the incompatible lens. The last owner took a dremel to it and carved out larger apertures to get the bulbs through. Once the unit is fitted into the car you cant tell the difference. I would love to see a close up photo of what it should look like. It the early 230 reflector metal rather than plastic?
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Hi Andy,
There is a good write up in the 'Technical Manual' with pictures.
I think all reflectors were plastic.
My 280 had the earlier tail lights fitted by a PO, a bit odd but with over 40years of history
many things happen!! I have now fitted the correct lights.
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Hey Andy,
I think your tailight work looks great and PRACTICAL. Nice job, and as always, thanks for sharing!
Lin
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Andy,
What you have are the early 230SL rear bulb holders and the 280SL lenses that are flat and don’t have the 1” centre strip through them.
Here is a photo of the two different rear bulb holders. The earlier ones are the metal larger ones.
The second pair of photos are of the lenses from the 230SL that are different to the latter lenses.
I believe you can still just buy the correct lenses that are not too expensive like the whole surround.
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Thanks Garry, Larry and Lin. Appreciate the master class from you guys. I have certainly been educated on the intricacies of 113 tail lights over the past 48 hours. The journey continues.
I think I will just stick with what I have for the time being. I can always swap these out latter on. I think the cost of replacing the lens is one I can do without at the moment as I have the expensive engine tart up coming down on me hard at the moment.
I have come to a bit of a cross road and to progress the project have to decide on if the engine should come apart or not. Even if I choose not to pull it down the cost will certainly still start to mount.
Pulled the engine out of storage last night and got as far to mount it back on the engine stand. Stood and stared at it for almost an hour contemplating what is to come. Hopefully whatever it is the stress gods will take pity and take it easy on me.
Couldn't resist it today and did a bit more work. Was suppose to have the day off but had to wait for the wife to put on her makeup which was only suppose to take 10 minutes. I knew better and got a good 90 minutes in on the car.
I fixed the boot lock which the previous customer had butchered after one of the stud snapped off. Managed to coax out the remnants of the stud and put a new stainless model in. Also fitted up all the stuff I did yesterday and the chrome strips strips which connect the boot lock to the lights.
Had an issue right from day one with some of the beading on one side missing. See photos. I am now wondering if the beading came with the late model tail lights. Any ideas?
Also anyone know where you can source the plastic thumb screw used secure the tail lights. I only have four of them and need another four.
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Hi Andy, if all else fails I can machine you up some thumbscrews fairly easily if you supply the plastic rod. Also have you got a 32mm socket x i/2" drive I can borrow to check the pitman arm preload on my power steering box?
cheers
Rodger
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I am sure I have Rodger. Good as gold. Drop around one day this week after 3 and pick them up.
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Andy,
a German member here ("Memmo") sells the thumb screws as a set of eight for 24 Euro but most likely sell you less.
http://www.pagode-markt.de/nachfertigungen/raendelmutter.html
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I bought the new lenses that Garry mentions for around $230 AUD a year or so ago...perfect one for one replacement
Check mine on www.getsmartpagoda.tumblr.com..
I can post the supplier link if needed, he might be in the list on this forum...
Rgds, Joe
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ANdy,
No beading is used between the chrome from Tail Light to Boot lock.
Garry
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.../... Had an issue right from day one with some of the beading on one side missing. See photos. I am now wondering if the beading came with the late model tail lights. Any ideas?
Beading was introduced on late 280SL's. See reply #4 in this thread:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18452.msg128711#msg128711 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18452.msg128711#msg128711)
/Hans in Sweden
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Just to clarify the tail light issue,
All tail lights had the same chrome surround and the linking chrome between the light surround and the boot lock. There was only a change in the lens and the rear bulb holder. As yours is a 230SL there should be no beading behind the horizontal chrome strips.
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Garry
I am a little confused...........your lower photo of the rear 230 lights has amber for the turn signal. I was under the impression that the change to amber came later...........early 1969? Our 230 has the serial #17617 has the amber lights for turn signal, which I thought the previous owner had installed. Can you clairify this for me?
Essell
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Go to the Technical Manual & you will see that certain countries had different tail light styles. My early '63 230SL came from Italy & has that country's correct tail lights with the amber on the outside corners.
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Thanks for all the advice guys. I will eventually get the correct lens. Looks like the lens that I need are NLA and aftermarket is the only way forward. I do have an almost brand new set of late model 280 lens if anyone has the old type and want to swap.
Thanks for all the advice on the beading as well. That was all very useful. Garry the only comment I would make is that I am almost certain that my boot lock is original as it matches the keys. Could have rekeyed or the barrel changed I suppose but given the patinia on it it seem very old. It came with a mercedes OEM gasget that sits behind it. Who knows? At the end of the day if it all bolts up and looks great I dont really care too much.
Just warms the cockles of my heart seeing the thing slowly going back together. I have set a goal for myself to install at least one part per day until its all back together. In the warm New Zealand summer its easy to come home from work and elect to open a cold can of beer instead!
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It would be unusual if the boot lock were not original, usually only the barrel is changed over. For interest, it is quite easy to change over the lenses. There is a bit of a write up in the Tech Manual on how to do it. Getting the original early tail lights complete is like winning the lottery, I got one and had to put together the second, both mine had breaks in them.
Welcome to full membership, you will be able to go through the “Linkage Tour” to get that engine properly set up, an absolutely invaluable tool and without it most never get their cars running set up correctly.
Will send you a welcomes letter and a window stickers for fitting when you finally get there.
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Cheers Garry, as promised ;D
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 1
Decided to take the plunge and get all the bumpers restoration in motion. Think my new rule of one part per day can be averaged out. I can count 8 parts on the front and rear bumpers when they are decomposed so I have round it down and given myself one week to get both refurbed and back on the car. Feel free to berate me if I don't achieve it!
Thought it would bit be too bad, perhaps a quick touch up on the insides. They had been re-chromed by the 'best' chrome shop in NZ in the early 90's and had only seen 2000 km's since whilst been shed stored. What possibly could be wrong with them... you know where this is going.
After a good clean to get an inch of dust and crud off them I discovered pretty much well 60% of the interior chrome was blistering or peeling badly. The remainder of the surface was rusted.
The exterior is perfect and had obviously had a fair amount of attention lavished on it. Why oh why oh why would a professional chrome shop with a reputation to uphold do a fantastic job on the outside and make an absolute dogs dinner out of the inside. Isn't part of chrome plating about preserving the item as well???? If I dont do something about this now it wont be with the car in 15 years time thats for sure.
So what should I do. Option 1 - Take it back and get it stripped and re-chromed again at a cost of 1200 dollars (this time giving them a jolly good bollocking if they dot do it properly) or option 2 - Try and carefully get rid of all the chrome plating and rust back to bare metal while leaving the exterior chrome undamaged.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART2
I choose option 2. Dont have the dosh to get the ultimate solution so will take the pain and do it the hard way.
Stripped out the bumper irons and gave them lashings and lashings of paint stripper to almost back to metal status. So they are sitting waiting for an appointment at the bead blasters.
Moved onto the first of the bumpers, the front left unit. Took to it with the 60 grit. Much worse than expected. Mostly all the chrome just fell off in my hands. Took a good hour of sanding to get 99% of the internal surface back to a rusty substrate.
Quickly masked up the edges ready for a final masking tomorrow with thick PVC plastic. Cant afford to breach this protective layer in the blaster as you would destroy your nice shiny surface is mililseconds if you made a mistake.
Think I will be repeating this over the next 3-4 days with the other bumper halves and aim to get into the booth on the weekend. Hopefully the masking will stay in tack and I can take them strait out and into the paint booth. Will use the rust inhibited epoxy primer and then try and source some correct top coat for it. Anyone know the paint code. I think it was a light tan/gray colour?
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Andy:
It was DB158 White Grey or "weissgrau"
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Rick is correct. I was always dubious that paint colour was DB158 because it looked more tan/olive to me but here is a new genuine bumper and a factory DB158 hubcap and the colour is identical (as is the backside of the hubcap). So now convinced.
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Thanks guys, I hope I can get my bumpers looking like yours Dave. Wish I could afford new units. Mine are showing signs that they have been repaired before. The car was involved in a minor front end fender bender at some point. The radiator support panel was a bit dented. I decided to leave it as its hidden by the bumper. If you look carefully at the bumper photos I posted you can see where a skilled trademan has used some sort of panel beating tool to knock and file the dents out. From the exterior the repair isn't detectable so they have done a very good job. Just a pity they didn't pay as much attention to the inside. Will let you know how I get on sourcing the paint from that code.
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Guys, am I posting stuff in too much detail. A bit worried I am boring the sox off you all with blow by blow. Can tame back to weekly summary updates if you want. Let me know and I can adjust my style as required.
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Andy you've got to be kidding mate !!!!
I'll vouch for everyone here...KEEP the detail coming !!! Its invaluable and what makes this such a great community !!!
Best wishes from Joe !
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Cheers Joe, didn't think things like bumpers were that interesting to everyone. Could come accross like paint drying!
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Andy,
I agree with Joe. Keep the detail coming.
Lin
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One of my bumpers has rusted right through from the inside out, I'll have to repair that before rechroming. For those that like to try and do most things themselves its invaluable, truly !
Joe :)
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Second that! Your posts are very helpful to those doing or planning a restoration. We appreciate how much time it takes to photograph and document the process so many thanks.
Even the new genuine bumpers are not as well finished on the underside as the top. They often have tooling marks like those in your photo.
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Guys, am I posting stuff in too much detail. A bit worried I am boring the sox off you all with blow by blow. Can tame back to weekly summary updates if you want. Let me know and I can adjust my style as required.
Andy, Your style is perfect. For me it's a daily portion of good material to read over morning coffee.
Just keep it posted as so far.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 3
Thanks guys I will try and keep on top of the updates then. I had a bit of a shocker today. Quite a hot day here and the garage got really warm inside. Almost sauna proportions. Hooked into masking up the bumpers with really thick pvc industrial plastic. This should prevent any scratches on the chrome and also allow me to sandblast and paint in quick succession.
The masking was a really hard job as the plastic was so thick. Took well over an hour struggling away in the heat.
After I had protected the exterior chrome I was able to really start agitating the loose rust and chrome. Took to it with a really stiff steel brush and then 60 grit paper. Really hard work. Fingers on one hand no longer have prints.
The really frustrating thing with these bumpers is that some of the internal chrome is still sticking like **** to a blanket while the rest peels off leaving a patchwork quilt of bare metal and slithers of sound chrome. To get a really good internal finish I have to take all the internal chrome off or bare minimum feather the hard edges of the remaining chrome slithers. Chrome by nature is a fairly hard substance and is resistant to all attempts to remove it.
I sanded away for two hours hard out in the heat with my dust mask on until all of a sudden I felt quite sick and got really dizzy. When things started to get black and white I decided to retreat... quickly. I have spent the rest of the night feeling quite ill. Obviously some sort of heat stroke. Sorry but I only managed to get the one photo.
Perhaps I should have sold my left kidney and brought new bumpers :-[
Hopefully I will be back to full enthusiasm by tomorrow afternoon and make some more progress. Off to drink some more water.
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Andy…. we love the story… perhaps one day either JonB or myself will work it into a coherent series for Pagoda Notes with photos and all…. So please don't stop. It's almost like a real life soap followed by many members around the world. All of us are awaiting the next installment each day.
Peter
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Hope you are feeling better today!
Lin
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Cheers Joe, didn't think things like bumpers were that interesting to everyone. Could come accross like paint drying!
That reminds me, Andy.
If you have anything to say about paint drying, put that in too.
Tom Kizer
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Thanks guys for your kind words.
Woke up this morning feeling very ill. Splitting headache and dizzy as hell. A bit of goggle work and figured out I probably suffered heat stroke. Reminder to self... stupid stupid idea to put overalls on and go into a stinking hot tin roof garage in the hottest part of a summers day and do heavy physical activity for hours on end. Lesson learnt!
Taken the day off work which guts me as I am a contractor and loose the income. Actually drove all the way to work and sat down at my computer and starting to see the screen spin. Made it kinda hard to concentrate so half an hour latter I pulled the pin and came back home to sleep it off. Just hope now I can resist going back into the garage for a cheeky tinker.
Peter, I think you would have a massive job on your hands if you decided to use any of my material. It would take months to correct all my atrocious spelling mistakes. You should know full well IT guys suck at spelling. You should see my code!
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Andy if its any consolation it was 43 here yesterday in Melbourne and only dropped to 30 overnight and I'm seeing quadruple screens this morning (since I have 2 monitors). Today is 41, tomorrow 41 and Friday 42....for you Americans who go by Farenheit 43c = 110f.
One consolation is that in Melbourne the weather changes quickly and 3 or 4 days is about the longest streak of above average hot weather we'd get and when it changes it will drop rapidly. I've seen in drop 20 degrees in half an hour ! Which has its own set of problems !
I'm glad to be at work for a change and there's no way I can work on my pagoda in this weather. Heatstroke has an insidious way of creeping up on us too...a la Andys symptons !
Get well soon maestro ! and don't dare go out in that garage...instead put the vice on the kitchen table and do some work inside...just make sure your wife is out ! :):):) and be careful to cover your tracks well !
Joe :)
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Andy,
Sorry you weren't well, but hope you are now feeling better. I live in Virginia and we have our own southern (U.S.) colloquialisms, but what the hell is a "cheeky tinker?"
:-)
Lin
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Hey Joe, I think we are getting the huge high that has sat over you guys for the past couple of weeks. I dont know how you put up with that sort of heat let alone the fire risk that looms over you ever summer.
Lin, a 'cheeky tinker' can be used in a number of different situations. Some of them I wont go into ;) The one I was referring to is more geared around getting my ass kicked by the wife when she discovers me tinkering with my car in the garage when I shouldn't. Normally this happens when she knows I should be mowing the lawn or cleaning the windows, or other such meaningless chores, where you be much happier in yourself in the garage than than slaving away. You must know what I mean. Isn't every man most happy in his garage or man cave?
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PRECIOUS
I couldn't help myself. A day in bed and a few bottles of electrolyte latter my thoughts turned to the inevitable. I truly feel some affiliation with Gollum. Bare minimum my rapid hair loss during this restoration has me resembling him more closely.
Dragged my sorry ass out of bed and went down to the hardware supplied and sourced some brake pipe to replace some of the damaged pipes. Quite a few of the fittings had been stripped over 20 years by owners using the wrong tools to tighten and loosen them. Never use a standard open ended 11mm spanner on these or you will inevitably end up with something resembling photo 3.
Bent up the pipe and took it back to the brake specialist to put the fittings on. Cost me the princely sum of 5 dollars. All the new brake pipe is anodized this weird green color so I took it home and painted it. Will repeat with all the other damaged stock.
While I was in the garage I decided to check out the temp to see what I had been in the day before. Took it at around 4pm in the arvo about the same time as I started working yesterday. It didn't -really feel that hot to me but when I got two separate thermometers in there I got quite a shock to find it about 42 c or 110 f. No wonder I felt crook.
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Take it easy in the shed. We are sending you some more hot weather. Was another 40c+ today and expecting the same for another two days. Got to 55c in my shed on Monday that is why I gave it a miss!!!!
I can see why your helper isn't wearing any cloths :o
Garry
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FYI Andy I think the green colour for brake pipes is the correct colour as supplied by Mercedes. :-\
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Am amazed, you also seem to be running a server in a 19"er out there… that won't be cooling you down either...
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Andy, your postings and photos are priceless, so much info must be helping so many on the forum, me included.
I don't usually put many postings up, but read yours every few days.
The temp. in Tasmania has been a little less than in Melbourne but still a worry especially regarding bush fire risk.
My shed has only reached 33c yesterday and today.
Jack
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Andy,
FYI Andy I think the green colour for brake pipes is the correct colour as supplied by Mercedes.
I think the brake lines look pretty good, the green color from Mercedes came years later on replacement lines.
Originally I think they where zinc or cad plated.
Hans
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Andy,
Gong to be hot there tomorrow. Stay out of the shed.
Temp today driving back to home at lunchtime, 44.5 or 112f and expecting hotter tomorrow 8)
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That's ridiculous Garry. You could literally fry an egg on the bonnet of the pagoda in those temps. Much cooler here today. Am enjoying a nice glass of red or three after returning to work. Haven't even given my 'precious' even a moments thought.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 4
Back onto the Bead Blaster this afternoon. A bit of a marathon effort. 3 hours in total. Arms are burning a bit tonight.
Quite bizarre as the minute I started blasting the last of the chrome on the inside it started bubbling almost with the same appearance as paint with paint stripper on it. This allowed me to easily peel off the remaining chrome bringing the entire surface back to bare metal. As a result I should end up with a much better and more durable finish.
Need to pick up some more paint supplies tomorrow morning. Will hit it all with three coats of epoxy etch ready to finish off early next week with the right MB bumper shade. Before I get into the paint I will spend some more time on the sand paper dressing back any sharp edges and bit that I missed in the blaster. Am hopeful of a good result.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 5
Climbed back into the job this morning. Spent 2 hours De-burring the edges of the bumpers with a die grinder. Just had to be careful I didn't go through all the existing layers of copper and nickel into the steel. A lot of the existing chrome didn't stand up to the die grinder and came flying off. I saw this as a good thing as it probably would have been a weak point and started to rust in years to come. Was aiming for the best possible substrate to put the new epoxy paint on. If I found rust under anything that came flying off I just kept on grinding until I hit solid material that was anchored well. Then took to the bumper iron with POR metal ready. Neutralizes any rust that I have missed and also coats the rest of the metal in with a coating of zinc. Just gotta make sure you wash off the residue after 10 minutes or you will end up with reactions with the primer.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 6
Hit all the bumpers with POR metal ready as well. Then cleaned off with lashing of wax and grease remover before laying down three very thick coats of epoxy 2k primer. The primer filled quite a few of the rust divots and imperfections so once sanded back I should end up with a good final surface.
The same heat that caused my little 'black out' two days prior is now working in my favor as the garage has been turned into a mini bake oven. Its was to hot to paint in so I painted outside on a drop sheet. No wind so minimal chances of stuff blowing on the job. Once each part had received its dose it was moved back into the garage to cure. Normally I have to wait two days before you can sand. Even after 24 hours it feels quite soft to the touch but I am picking in this heat it will be good to good by tomorrow morning. Kinda academic as I dont have the paint for the final coat yet but will still be able to sand it out ready for the final push.
I also need to get all the bolts back in the bead blaster and off to the platers. I am tossing up to replace them all with stainless. It the lazy and easy was in my mind. I love putting back all the KMax original fasteners that came with the car. Every bolt you replace takes a little bit of history away from the car in my mind. Probably quite a crazy notion but one I have always lived by with all the refurbs I have undertaken in the past.
Hopefully I have preserved all this equipment long enough that the next generation will get to enjoy it. That the aim at the end of the day. What I have done with the bumpers isn't exactly what I would deem as beautiful work but should provide some long term protection.
If money wasn't an object I would get all the chrome chemically stripped and then bead blast and then re-chrome. Sort of made a rod for my own back with the way I have gone about these but at the end of the day I am certain I have saved more money which can be put toward other bits and pieces. I do feel a bit better about it all when I priced up a new set of OEM front and rear bumpers and new bumper irons at around 6k US. I would hate to write that cheque.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 7
Spent this arvo sanding back the bumper irons and applying three coats of satin black. I dont think these are going to rust in a hurry again. Enough product to paint the Eiffel tower!
I am now worried that my average part count goal is going to slip. I dont think I will get time this week to get the bolts for the bumper blasted and plated, also I need to sort out the paint. Everything soaks the time.
I started on plan B to keep myself on target. The headlight I thought should be an easy candidate to go back in quickly. Carefully unwrapped my headlight units and to my total surprise found one of them to be almost brand spanking new. The other is in great condition as well with good shiny reflectors and no signs of the rust on the rear of the units which seems to be common place.
Just had to work on the earth points. More paint to carefully take off.
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More photos of the headlight earth point paint strip.
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Managed to get one of the head lamp assemblies back on tonight. Before the refit I bench tested all the bulbs and replaced a couple that were not working. Always worth the effort. Really starts to look nice when you put this stuff back on. Am really happy with all the headlamp notches. They all line up perfectly with the chrome.
One thing I did find is that the seal between the lamp and the headlight bucket didn't sit too well when screwed hard in. Not to bad, just a couple of mm in one place but enough to let water in and potentially start a rust problem at the bottom of the headlight bowl. Quite obviously Mercedes expected this as there are two drain holes at the base of the bowl. I would just prefer to keep it as dry as possible in any event. Its going to get wet at some point! More than likely in the foreseeable future only during grooming.
In any event I spent quite a while gluing an extra piece of 2mm closed cell foam onto the existing seal to give it a bit more of a weather tight teal. I have also replaced all the cheese head screws which hold the unit in with M8 318 Stainless equivalents. These little suckers all seem to rust so i think this is prudent. I also have had a rethink on the bumper bolts. The original K Max are so pitted on close inspection that I dont think they will have a new appearance when coated again. I went to pillage the ones from my part w108 and they have the same level of deterioration. I suppose they get more of a hammering than most other fasteners on the car. Perhaps the stainless option is the best solution for the bumpers. What do you guys think.
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Perhaps the stainless option is the best solution for the bumpers. What do you guys think.
Hello Andy,
Yes, I think so too.
When I got my car many years ago I thought I'd 'replace all fasteners by stainless steel ones and you are fine' circumventing this stupid rust problem with many of the old ones.
Nevertheless it became quickly clear that most of the screws, bolts, nuts, fasteners on our cars (and on cars in general) must not be stainless steel but must keep their original property class (8.8, 10.9 or 12.9 in our cases) and cannot be substituted by A2-70 or so !! :o
With the bumper screws and (I think) all types of sheet-metals screws this is certainly different. Most of those can be replaced by A2-70 for better durability on our cars.
On most of these non-important non-torqued screws I use wax, grease or oil during reassembly as well.
The bolts for the (especially front) bumpers are always heavily rusty. I got them yellow zink plated again, but of course those still look odd and old.
New ones from the hardware shop are an alternative, especially after yellow zink (or cad) plating. But those are often no longer made by Kamax or NSF or Verbus or whatever the old ones were.
You can also buy new ones from MB ....
... but I really think the non-visible non-important torque, non-property class-important fasteners (like bumper screws) can be replaced by stainless steel ones...
Just my 2 cents...
Achim
(M8 wrench size 14 screws collector)
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 8
Achim, have taken your advice and gone stainless. In hindsight it was absolutely the right thing for the bumpers. From a cost, time and durability aspect I am a winner on this one. Total cost for all the mounting hardware in stainless a poultry 16 dollars US. The cost to have them replated alone, let alone the labor cost to have them bead blasted, would have exceeded this by 40 dollars. Its sooooo nice to just walk in to a shop and buy some of this stuff.... occasionally.
Also stopped at the painters to get some DB158 mixed up to finish off the bumpers and hub caps. While I was there he gave me a good tip. The paint he mixed was a 1k solid base coat tinted to suit. Normally you just mix it with a bit of thinners and blow it on. He suggested that I mix it with normal harder to give it much better durability and resistance to solvents. Also takes a little bit of gloss off and looks a bit more factory. He took one look at the finish on the back of my factory hub cap and insisted I use it replicate the factory look and feel. Mix ratio was 5 to 1. Apparently its a really common trick with painters. Trusted him and went ahead with it. No strange reaction and the result looks really good.
Spent another 2 hours sanding out the epoxy primer. I deliberately heaved it on really thick to fill some of the rust pit imperfections. Not the easiest way to do it as expoxy primer is really hard to sand. I could have used a high build primer but wanted a really solid protection barrier to stop the rust coming back. I managed to sand out at least 80-90% of all the imperfections. Quite happy with the result and well worth the effort.
Just have to wait for the bits to dry and get into the assembly. Hopefully I will be able to get on the right side of my goal to install one piece per day. That was about a week ago and I have only managed to fix up one headlight. I am counting the bumpers as 8 pieces.
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Also managed to mount up the remaining headlamp. Brought all new stainless cheese block head screws to keep it in place. Awesome to have both of these off the floor and better protected back in place on the car. The RHD headlight lens in particular are simply not available.. anywhere! Again I am really happy with the alignment of the notches. Great to have her eyes back on again!.
With all the paint that I had applied the threads for the bumpers had got fairly clogged up again. I ran a tap through them all and got the new stainless bolts gliding in the threads. Everything in place to refit the bumpers tomorrow after work.
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Andy,
The bolts (and washers) for the front Bumper irons should be cad plated. If they are zinc plated now, which they appear to be, you could just dip them in a chromate to colour them up.
Garry
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Hey Garry, I think you have just been looking at the pictures and not reading my posts :'( Perhaps I should have listened to my instincts and not put so too much mundane babbel about the bumpers! Reading back over what I have post I actaully dont blame ya. It made me yawn a bit reading it. But the guts of what I have been going on about over the past couple of days is debating using stainless bolts or getting my old kmax redone. Went with the stainless option after having a good chin wag with Achim.
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Your right, I missed the bit about walking in and buying off the shelf. Was so taken by the repainting of the rear of the bumpers that i was thinking of taking mine off and doing them properly.
Garry
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Garry... your far too kind. ;)
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Hallo Andy,
one more little hint ...
Put the brackets on the bumpers first and then mount the whole assembly onto the car, not the other way around.
It's too hard to access the screws for the bumper halves once you have the bracket already mounted on the car.... especially for the rear ones. :P
The bolts (and washers) for the front Bumper irons should be cad plated. If they are zinc plated now, which they appear to be, you could just dip them in a chromate to colour them up.
Garry,
That would definitely be a great thing, yellow cad plating of stainless steel bolts... ;) :D ;D
(Yes, I know that was not your suggestion here).
I was once told that is not possible but I don't know for sure.
Probably gold plating (different process, not electro-plating) could be an alternative here :D ;D :o
Certainly a bit expensive but at least it looks somehow right ... from a little distance at least. :D ;D
All best, and please keep on reporting, Andy!
I love it!
Achim
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Hi Achim,
Thanks for your tip. I had already discovered that when I bolted the brackets up to the bumpers just to test fit them but as of last night. They were taken off and bolted firmly to the bumper ready for the fit up tonight.
I have a small issue with some of the stainless bolts being every so slightly to long and either I grind them down or go back and get some 5mm shorter. The good thing about stainless is there is no coating and if you grind into the material you dont destroy the rust proofing.
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CAD plating stainless is possible. It's simply necessary to separate them out from the non-stainless parts and identify them to the CAD plater (I used a magnet). The plater gives them some sort of pre-treatment before CAD plating - I don't remember which. I think it's an acid dip. It didn't even cost me extra at Detray Plating in Missouri. I had several pounds of stainless parts CAD plated for appearance purposes along with all the other parts (60 pounds total for about $475 plus shipping). Although under severe use, the CAD will wear off someday, at least the bolts won't rust when it does As previously mentioned, just watch out for the strength requirements in the applications where you plan to use stainless.
Tom Kizer
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Cheers Tom, Given these bolts are hidden in the bowels of the bumpers and not visible without an inspection mirror and torch when the bumpers are back on the car I have elected to go stainless. I dont think the strenght aspect will come into it with the bumpers. If I have a high speed accident the bumpers wont provide much protection and I am perfectly happy if the bolts shears and the bumpers fall off. ;)
I do here what you say. I wouldn't use these for fasteners for the subframe or any other structural components without a whole bunch of research.
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I am not proposing that the stainless fasteners should be CAD plated. I bought mostly stainless fasteners to replace those too far gone to replate with CAD. I figured that if the fastener is in a place where it's going to rust even with CAD plating, I might as well buy stainless. I only decided to CAD plate the stainless fasteners when I found out from Detray Plating that there is no extra charge to CAD plate stainless. It's as inexpensive as all the other fasteners, so why not?
I had planned to do what you did before I found that out, and still would have if it had been extra cost. I've still got some stainless fasteners in the car that are supposed to be chromed or CAD plated. Maybe it will give the experts something to argue about. If they notice that, maybe they won't notice something else that's wrong that's more important. In most cases, because I'm chasing you in my restoration, I come here to see what I'm supposed to do tomorrow or next week Rarely will I have already done something when you get around to doing it. Keep up the excellent work and documentation.
Tom Kizer
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 9
Mounted up all my irons to the rear bumpers this afternoon and then mounted them onto the car. Quite exciting to see another major chrome body up against the fresh silver paint. I think its a great combination. Quite happy with the result and even though its not perfect it looks good when you crawl under the car and look back up. It would have done my head in to have just mounted the rusty old versions up. Sure I would have lost sleep in years to come.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 10
I was going to give up for the night and leave the front bumper till tomorrow. Figure I am on the good side of the ledger now in regard to my 'one part per day' policy.
Wife got a little grumpy at me so I decided to stay in the garage and assemble the front bumper. I had purchased new stainless coach bolts which hold the bumper together. I discovered that the dome head on them sat to high and interfered with thin chromed cover that hides up the join of the two halves and the fixing coach bolts.
Only solution was to take to them with the grinder. Stainless is an absolute mongrel to grind or cut. Very very hard. Took a good 10 minutes to carefully whittle down each one on the bench grinder. If they were steel it would be done in 15 seconds.
With a bit of trial and error I managed to get everything to bolt up and look right. A bit of patience here is the order of the day.
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BUMPER RESTO - PART 11 THE FINAL FRONTIER
Not that I am suggesting that I have been where no man has been before... just that it feels like it as its been such a drawn out arduous, dirty, back breaking job that no sensible man would follow in my foot steps. Probably the worst job of the resto so far to be honest. My advice for anyone else attempting this would be to have the bumpers stripped properly and start again from scorched earth. Even though I am happy with the result I have made a whip for my own back... and then used it on myself.
All this said I just couldn't wait till tomorrow to see the front bumper back on the car. The job probably should be undertaken with at least two people, perhaps even three to ensure no paint parts company with the car. Probably quite stupid to attempt it on your own.
I am quite glad I still have at least 10kg of clean rags as these came in essential to doing this job on your own. I pretty much wrapped the entire bumper and used masking tape to hold it all in place. Then very carefully used the trolley jack to edge up one side while lying flat on my back holding and guiding the other end. The adhoc technique worked and I managed, one by one, to do up the four bolts that hold the bumper to the iron. With the front bumper I mounted the irons to the car and then the bumper to the irons. The rear was done by mounting the iron to the bumper and then the iron to the car.
Any way I am now clear of the bumper project and am looking for my next target. Will sleep on that one.
Again I hope you guys haven't been bored to tears with this section. I know you all say you haven't but I am putting that down to the fact that most pagoda drivers are true gentlemen.
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They look fantastic Andy.
Please keep the story going, it is great to read and gives me things to check as you go through the items.
Garry
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Nice work on the bumpers Andy! That front bumper installation does look great.
Lin
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Andy, there are specialty wheels/abrasives suited for SS/Inox…if you don't use them it's a tough go. It's never an easy chore but the right wheel makes it a bit better.
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Cheers Michael, I used sandpaper! Pretty dumb ass dont you think?
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LICENSE PLATE LENS
My new rear license plate lens turned up this morning. The old ones were probably the original ones that it left the factory with and were totally disintegrated. Given the outcome of the sale at auction of the two black 300sl's highlighted on this web site I wondered if I am actually devaluing the car by replacing them. ;)
The new lens had one of the corners beveled off so the first mind teaser was which way around they were suppose to be oriented in the rubber gasket. The only clue I found was a small hole cut through the rubber which would avoid being obstructed by the lens if the beveled edge was positioned in the same corner. The hole didn't appear to be used for anything.
The next issue was that I was sure there was a chrome external cover which mated up to the lens to give a nice aesthetic. The 108's have this but the plate lens face upwards and can be seen. I searched for a couple of hours turning my parts stash upside down but couldn't find anything. I am still confused if I have missed something.
I forged ahead and mounted up what I have. The lens just seem to poke out of a rectangular sheet metal cutout and doesn't look quite right. There is also a flap on the rubber seal which seem to come down and obscure almost half the lens. I am not sure if I have this oriented correctly as well and also not sure what its purpose is. Is it suppose to seal the chrome cover I am missing?
Replaced all the screws with stainless. All screws under this ledge were absolutely rotten.
If anyone can check and see if I have stuffed up anything around these components I would be appreciative.
While I was fitting all this stuff up I was having a close think about what rots the rear double section panel directly below the bumper. I am picking that water leaking through all the fixing holes on the rear panel pooling in between the inner and outer skins is the culprit. After contemplating this I unmounted quite a few pieces from the rear section and dabbed in some clear silicon around the holes to ensure they are reasonably water tight.
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Hi Andy,
No chrome cover, you are right.
Garry
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Cheers Garry, appreciate it. Every other aspect of the car has beautiful level of detail. This one surprises me. Just doesn't seem up to Mercedes quality. Guess its because its o an unseen surface. Suppose after all it is a SL and unnecessary weight is the enemy.
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I agree. It does seem a little cheap. I replaced mine a few years ago. The original glass was broken. One needs to go carefully screwing up the new one. The replacement plastic parts are easily cracked. A dab of silicone is a good idea.
I recall that on my first attempt at re-assembly I managed to get the rubber mount entirely outside of the chrome rather than correctly inserted. It stayed like that for about 4 years before I realised what I'd done.
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James, I had quite a few difficulties getting them to sit in place correctly to. There is bugger all clearance and after about 10 attempts to get it to slot in correctly I resorted to using swathes of dish washing liquid to lubricate its path. This made it a doddle and it slipped right on in. Without it the rubber kept on jumping out of the housing which is what it sounds like you encountered. I think if you screwed up the plate with the plastic not seated you would definitely be at risk of cracking it.
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Had another morning in the bead blaster cleaning up the aluminum exhaust heat shields. One of them shields the fuel tank. The other bolts up under the passenger seat. Not sure exactly what this ones primary purpose is. They both came up trumps after a lick or of the high speed silica. I have a problem with one of the standoffs for the rear shield. The mounting bolt rusted up and the head snapped off so I had to drill off the head to get it off the car some 8 months ago. Now trying to repair it. Managed to drill out the majority of the old fixture and have given it to my good mate Rodger to run a tap through. Should be good as new after he has finished. Also had some interesting guests to come and look at the car this weekend. One turned up in a late model yellow Lambo. Very different type of car from the one they came to view! Quite strange how your ideas change over your life time. Once upon a time I used to have posters stacked up on my wall of the Lamborgini Contach. Don't get me wrong I still love them and admire the engineering and build quality but they just aren't my cup of tea any longer.
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Another load of stuff turned up from Buds this morning. Quite frustrating as the one part I really wanted was the seals for the window wiper spindles. It didn't turn up in the last shipment so David sent them again. All in all I have been waiting over three months for these parts. Now they are here I cant make heads nor tails of how they relate to the car. They didn't turn up in a mercedes packet so I am thinking they are decidedly aftermarket. To be honest they look like plumbing washers you could source at any local hardware store.
I would really appreciate if any of you who have replaced these could let me know whats going on. I hope one of you can make a fool of me as I really really dont want to wait another month!
Two of these rubber washers turned up. They were solid rubber where what I scraped from the car seemed to be a double edged molded unit. The inside diameter seems to be exactly the same as the inner wiper shaft. I was expecting that it would be the same as the outer hollow tube which protrudes through the firewall so it could be slipped over and seal up against the paint work and the large washer which is clamped against it with the large nut.
Any idea appreciated. Should I go to the classics center?
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Horn Button Repair - Part 1
I started the refurb of the horn button the other day by pulling it apart and sending the inner and outer ring off to the chrome platers. They quoted me 80 NZ dollars for both pieces. New early buttons are running at 500US plus now so any saving is good. Also get to choose the quality and texture leather exactly matching the rest of the car.
I have done a couple of these buttons before and have learnt from my mistakes. Each one has got better and better so hopefully this one will be the best yet.
First thing I learnt from the W108 buttons, which I think are identical, is that you have to get rid of the old cracked outer plastic shell of the old button. If you dont two detrimental things may occur. The first is that if there are any cracks in the plastic the leather will sink in and look terrible. If the inner pad is also cracked you will run into the same problem unless you fill it. I would personally keep on searching for a better uncracked second hand pad.
The second and more frustrating problem is that if you add to the plastic shell you end up with tolerance issues and the outer and inner chrome rings may not fit properly or at all.
It only takes a few minutes to slice off the outer shell with a knife.
The next important trick is to then glue the pad onto the plastic backing plate. This allows much better control when stretching the leather on. Even if you leave the outer shell on and glue over it the pad is still quite flexible and is difficult to get just right as its constantly flexing as you pull and stretch the leather.
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Horn Button Repair - Part 2
Now ready to mount the leather. I have elected not to use a tool to clamp the leather into the center cavity. I have found from trial and error it tends to pinch the leather (see photo) which makes your job much harder for the surfaces that face the driver. I think its much better to glue the major surfaces and then concentrate on the tight corners latter.
The Ados goes off very quickly so you need to have all the required steps in your head to work through before you start or you end up with a paintbrush lifting and re-gluing bits and pieces. Very messy and fiddly. Best to get it right first time!
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Horn Button Repair - Part 3
Once the leather is basically in place worked quickly to pat down all the main surfaces. Important to do this as it makes working and stretching the leather into the center recess much easier. Another important point is that you don't have to get the edges perfectly cut. It pays to cut as little as possible until the glue has dried. Trim up the edges last and make sure before you begin that you have the right overlap and don't come up short. The stretching process eats up a surprising amount of the overlap.
I allowed for a couple of cm extra on the outside edge. Also when you cut the initial relief cut in the center that you are careful not to go to far. If you do the edge of the cut will be pulled up the pad during stretching and possible be visible once the inner ring is pressed in. Remember that when this chrome ring is put in further stretching takes place. I got caught out with this one on my first pad attempt.
Until the chrome turns up the only other thing I can do now is sort out the center lapel. Scrape off the paint and respray in black gloss. Will document this when I get around to it.
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Great documentation on the horn pad fix, Andy! Thanks for your effort.
Lin
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No worries Lin, hopefully its of use to someone. There is already another description of how to do this in the technical section but it requires a special tool. I thought I would just chuck and alternative method into the mix that is hopefully a bit quicker and easier. The whole thing only took about 30 minutes so not exactly rocket science.
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Had a great day out with my son at a local annual car show held here in Auckland NZ called the galaxy of cars. Typically get over 1000 cars in the show with the Mercedes club putting up a good show with around 40-50 cars including 6 pagodas and a beautiful 300sl roadster. I didn't take my camera so cant share with you guys unfortunately.
Got home after seeing 'working' pagodas and roused up some motivation to go and try and get some more work done. Decided to try to get the heater control cables in again. I have been struggling with the little clips that hold the cables down for days now. I just couldn't get enough force to clip them home on the tabs as they just bent went I applied force. Tried all sort of things including buying special bent long nose pliers etc.
I had an epiphany moment and solution came to me in a few microseconds. Bizarre that I hadn't thought of it before. Really feel quite stupid but may as well share all the same. I am sure you will have a laugh. See photo for the simple workaround.
I used the marks on the cables where the clips had been previously clamped as a datum for re-clamping. The biggest risk here is not getting enough length on the sheath for the lever end to home into the square lugs. If you were putting in new cables I would start at the lugs and work backwards toward the motor.
Anyway its all bolted back up and working now. Quite a good feeling as the levers were the first thing I restored just over a year ago. Was a bit of a time for reflection, looking back quite a lot of water has gone under the pagoda.
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Trying to get back on track with goal of one part refit per day average. Though I had an easy target today with the clutch master but proved a bit tricky with the pipework. Everything went back in very smoothly until I tried to fit the high pressure pipe up. Originally there was a cut out in the firewall mat so it sat flush with the carpet. I replicated this but then still had issues getting the fitting to thread. Quite a few swear words latter I manage to tweak the pipe to get it to an acceptable fitment. I have no idea why it didn't just drop in until I compared the old cylinder when had slightly different dimensions and relative fitting locations. The high pressure outlet pipe is quite thick and needed quite a bit of force to tweak. No big drama and another job done and dusted.
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Moved on to looking at the gear shift rubber seals. This one mystified me. David from Buds insisted that there were two seals underneath the plate. I could work it out until it arrived and I sized things up. Take a look at the photos and tell me if I have this one correct. Seems both of them fit up into the plastic cover than bolts up from inside the cockpit. The last photo is what I scraped off several months ago.
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Hi Andy, just thought that I would mention but you are probably aware that dishwashing liquid contains
an awful lot of salt. Be sure to wash it all off after use. Bought a car once that turned out to be washed with dishwasher liquid
regularly, when the windscreen had to be replaced there was very little metal left to hang it on >:( :-\
Moved that one on pretty quick
I use a product called 'Hellerine' which is mainly used for threading cables through tight places, works well.
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Cheers Larry. That is sound advice indeed. I didn't know that it had salt in it but I have been very conscientious to wipe it off. Think I will get away with it but always worth thinking about. I used to use lanolin but ran out.
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Andy
Two door handle barrels in the mail today for you.
Garry
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Thanks Garry. Really appreciate your help. I will be sure to document the process of swapping over the pins and the reassembly in the coming weeks. Hope i get to repay your kindness by at least shouting you a beer at some stage. In the mean time if i can help you out in any way just shout out.
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Air Filter Refurb
Picked on something which I knew would get my daily part refit tally up very quickly. Rodger who is also a member in here and drives a beautiful 280, dropped off some pre cut filter material from a commercial air con unit. His industry so he knew his stuff when it came to this sort of material. Its been sitting around for months waiting me to catch up on the refit. Today was its day!
I think this is nice simple way to save a few dollars. Guess there is all sorts of material you could use effectively. Even open cell foam would do the job. Anything that breaths I guess. Just lucky that Rodger has supplied me the Rolls Royce of filter materials for free!
Drill the rivets and pushed through the new ones with a close fitting washer on the opposing side for the rivet to bit down on and clamp the material to hold everything together in the same way the old flat heat rivet did.
All in all a five minute job that save 50 or 60 US. Good hourly rate as they say!
Fitted it all up now as I am pretty much well done with all the vent control cables. Finished them all off with a smear or 5 of sealer all over the firewall seals. This was how I found it when it came apart and I am sure it was all factory. A few others in here have supported that notion which is good enough for me to run with.
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Started looking at the air scoop. Fitted up the window washer squirter. When I pulled it off it didn't have any form of rubber gasket under it between it and the paint job. It had formed quite an impression in the paint after being clamped so hard with the factory steel spring clip. I figured there was suppose to be some sort of gasket there and went and looked at all my W108 which all had pretty much the same setup with and identical squirter and all having a rubber seal. I stole the one off my parts car and fitted it all up. Can anyone tell me if this is correct for the 113.
Cleaned up the chrome 'mouth' in anticipation of the final fit. I really really take great pleasure in seeing these sorts of bits back up on the car even though its only a trial. I got really carried away, and like a drug addict to a big pile of free cocaine just couldn't resist the urge of digging a correct clock out of the 'ready to go in' parts pile and trail fitted that as well. Must say it made me happy.. pointless but really happy. Seeing familiar features that classically define the car one by one reappear really has given me a huge boost.
Cant wait to start glueing up the leather!
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Mine doesn't have a seal nor did my 280
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Neither does mine
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No seal on my 280 SL or 250 SL.
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Thanks guys I shall take your advice and rip the seal out today. I think it looks heaps better without it!
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Clock and Radio
When I first purchased the car one of the first 'faults' I noticed were a very very very terrible clarion radio from the 80 in the dash and almost as sickening a non correct clock wedged in.
In hindsight I laugh at myself as the first things I did in the preceding days after the purchase were to set about correcting these two problems. I just doesn't seem sane with all the water thats flowed under the bridge that I would have been in such a rush to get these things sorted first.
I made impulse buys off ebay germany and ebay us that have come back and bitten me hard in the last 24 hours.
From USA I purchased a clock. I watched a few going for well over 300US. I waited until one came up where the seller gave assurances that the unit was in good working order until I pulled the trigger. From memory I paid over the odds for this privilege to the tune of 400US. Why it took me over a year to check it I cannot explain but after connecting it up to my bench supply last night I have discovered that it is very sick indeed. They should wind every couple of minutes I think but this little sucker is winding every 10 seconds. Not a good thing. I may pull it apart to see if I can see any obvious causes but I am on the brink of sending it off for repair or even a quartz movement upgrade.
I was joking with another pagoda friend of mine last night that by the time I have it back working in the car I could have purchased for myself with the same sort of funds a very nice rolex!
After this let down I hauled my second historic purchase out of its hiding hole. This time we are talking about a very beautiful becker mexico. I absolutely love these units and marvel over the wunderbars intricate clockwork mechanism. Just a piece of high art in my humble opinion.
I got this unit from a seller in Switzerland who advertised it on ebay Germany as a fully working beautiful condition unit. Right. Same **** different day! Powered it up and discovered that the only thing that worked were the light and the wunderbar. Pulled the top of the remote amp and was met but the unmistakable smell of stale burnt destroyed electrolytic capacitor.
I tested the head unit with a becker Europa external amp and discovered that the unit was ok which was a big relief. I cant use the europa amp as it doesn't have the correct power feeds for the Mexico wunderbar.
So this morning I have been frantically emailing off clock repair places all over the world to get prices and have also sent a friendly email to Becker US to see if they will send me the required components to fix the amp.
Kind of have to laugh though. Just everything associated with this car needs this type of attention. The few parts I manage to just have to clean and put back on the car are savored and coveted like a fine red wine. After a year of problem after problem you sort of start to develop a thick skin. I would have been a nervous wreck a year ago so in that sense the car has taught me a lot.
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Those are frustrating experiences but at least you're 'investing' your money - I mean the car should always be worth more than your outlay (unless you price in your time of course :)). When it comes to ebay purchases most people describe things honestly or even conservatively. It's just so disappointing when you encounter the person who does not.
I agree the '64/'65 Mexico TR are wonderful radios. No doubt you've seen the operating version at www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTe252zaSVU. That mechanical stationseeker is marvellous in action. Only 'problem' is the Mexico has no preset buttons. But the 'Q' is a cool feature. The '63/'64 Grand Prix TG are also lovely radios, with presets (but no shortwave). I think shortwave broadcasts are being discontinued now anyway, what with internet radio. Bit of a shame.
My advice with the clock is repair of the original mechanism - primarily for the sound not the timekeeping!
p.s. My windshield squirter is also seal-less
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When it comes to ebay purchases most people describe things honestly or even conservatively. It's just so disappointing when you encounter the person who does not.
In recent years, I buy less and less on ebay. I can remember when almost everyone was honest on ebay. Recently, I've even been "taken to the cleaners" several times by what "appear" to be legitimate import parts dealers. A recent one advertised a Pagoda flex joint kit with the Mercedes "kit" part number in the title and a photo of the "kit", including the flex joint, three short bolts, three long bolts, six washers, six nyloc nuts and the two appropriate rubber seals, and even at a reasonable, but not cheap price.
What I got was an aftermarket flex disc, with nothing else.
I finally got full refund from PayPal, but it still cost me four weeks and the cost to ship it back.
Bottom Line: Don't trust anyone. From now on, I'll buy from those I've dealt with before, even if it is more expensive.
Tom Kizer
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Sent of a few queries for the clock and radio yesterday. Got back the following responses for the clock issue. Clockworks seems very very cheap. Has anyone else used them before. Almost to good to be true?
Have now had my clock running for over 24 hours and the problem has improved somewhat. Its winding every 20 second up from 5 when I started it. Nowhere the 4 minutes it should be though.
Also got a response back from Becker US. I asked if they would help out by identifying the component burnt out and just send me a replacement. That went down like a cup of cold vomit and I was quickly told that my only option was a complete replacement at 250US. Got my heckles up a bit as I do have a lot of experience with electronic and know actually how simple this old amplifier is. I am sure that they would have seen this identical problem dozens and dozens of times and been able, with a reasonable degree of certainty, to suggest a sensible component replacement schedule.
Just seems crazy to send the unit around the world to have a 5cent component replaced. Guess at the end of the day they are a business after all.
Only other option is to buy the circuit diagram myself. They are available online for 20 euro.
Clockworks Info (info@clockwks.com)
5/02/2014
To: Andrew Burns
Picture of Clockworks Info
Andrew,
Your original clock movement can be serviced for the flat rate of $89.95 plus return shipping. This includes disassembly of the movement, replacement of any worn or distorted parts, oiling and calibration. We only ask that the clock be complete, fully assembled and the movement serviceable. Turnaround time is usually 24 hours and the warranty is 1 year.
We do not offer a quartz conversion on VDO clocks.
Wisconsin residents must add 5.5% sales tax to the price of parts and service.
Return shipping within the US is $13.
You can pack your clock up and ship it by UPS, Fed-X, US mail, or any means convenient to you. You can enclose a check or money order, bill the service to MC/Visa/Discover, or we can email a Paypal invoice once the work is done. For the quickest service possible, please include a copy of this e-mail with your clock.
Kind regards,
Jerry
P.S. If you would like the opportunity to see your car featured on our "Clock Works Car of The Month" web page we would like to see it! Send along a photo or two and a short description of your car. Let us know if you would like your photo(s) returned. Or you can e-mail them to info@clockwks.com
Clock Works
1745 Meta Lakes Rd.
Eagle River, WI 54521
Phone: 715-479-5759
WWW.CLOCKWKS.COM
Hartmut Mees (hartmut@paspeedo.com)
5/02/2014
To: 'Andrew Burns'
Picture of Hartmut Mees
We have two options for you. We can repair the original electro-mechanical mechanism, or we can rebuild the clock to quartz with a new VDO mechanism. The cost for the original repair is approximately $289.00, and rebuild to quartz is $245.00 + shipping. If you want the chrome bezel replaced, this will cost $21.00, and a new plastic lens will cost 18.00. As a part of the service we will clean/polish the old bezel/lens. All of our work comes with a 2 year warranty, however the original mechanisms are very susceptible to low voltage. The turn around time for a repair such as this is abut 2 to 3 weeks. If you decide to send us your clock, please be sure to attach a short note or a copy of this email.
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Andy,
Let me look in my box of tricks re radio. I may have something that may help. Will come back to you tonight when I get back to our property.
Garry
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Garry you are too good to me. If you do have an amp I will buy it off you for market rates. I need to start contributing something back to you. If there is anything you need just make sure you sing out!
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Only other option is to buy the circuit diagram myself. They are available online for 20 euro.
Andy--keep asking around here, maybe someone has the schematic and that might save you 20 euro, or part of it. You can then find out what the part is and hopefully somewhere it won't be too difficult to source. Come back here when you have a part number…
Might find something here but I don't read German… http://www.astralsilber.de/becker/becker.htm
Wow have prices gone up on the clock! I paid about $100 about 12 years ago for the quartz upgrade. The bad news is, those quartz movements are really quite inexpensive. The good news is, for 12 years the clock has kept stunningly perfect time; so, not complaining, just observing...
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Must have been the same supplier, I got the same, disc only and not the kit. Also the flex disc was the round type, not the original one (advertised) with the flat sides.
I did finally get a replacement albeit another round one ! I gave up with them after that, won't mention the name here, but "container" might mean something.
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Seat Refurbishment Nightmare - Part One
Last night I couldn't sleep. I tossed and turned for hours in bed thinking about the next part of the journey. When the seat covers and squabs turned up they just all looked wrong against the dainty little 230 seat base. Even holding them up against the seats at xmas time revealed some quite considerable and noticeable differences.
I had requested instructions on how to fit them from both GAHH and Buds but didn't really get any more than a passing comment about quote 'you just have to make them work'. What that meant I wasn't quite sure. Fuzzy and me just dont mix!
So I got out of bed at 2am. I have had a few health issues lately and have been put on some quite strong drugs which have me a little wired. Usually I am able to sleep to at least 4am which leaves me an hour or so to think about the car and the day ahead.
Anyway I dragged my sorry ass out of bed and went and started taking more measurement. Confirmation after about an hour of work that my gut was correct. I then drafted up a couple of email to both GAHH and Buds to see if I could get some traction.
David responded quickly ringing me in the person and putting me on to Brad who is presumably the upholstery guy. This proved pretty fruitless with claims that they very very infrequently worked on the early 230sl and didn't have any record or photos of how it was done. All that could be offered was a suggestion that I had to turn the pad into a total Frankenstein to have any sort of chance.
GAHH quickly followed with Jack phoning Brad to talk the matter over. Jack then phone me to discuss and basically told me the same story about early cars being very rare and that they were also not able to provide me with and 'cutting and gluing' guidelines.
It became apparent quickly that I am the only party of all three of us that had possession of an original 230sl seat pad and the GAHH equivilent to be able to do any sort of comparison. The offer was made and for the past 8 hours I have been decomposing my seat down to all the constituent parts and taking detailed measurment.
I have summarized the findings and have sent the following email back to Buds and GAHH to see if they can help. Jack from GAHH seemed very keen to see the measurements and use these to the benefit of his customers if possible.
Some of my findings I think are very interesting. If any of you guys have been through this and have encountered any of the problems I have raised in the email I think it would be great to share.
I have shared all the photos I have taken from the investigation and a pdf with sketches of the summary measurement differences. Can be found here if your interested https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=9C6D25994A012D12%21325
I am really happy this morning with the response from both Buds and GAHH and look forward to see what suggestions they come up with. I think getting this sorted would be of massive benefit to anyone else in here with an early car where your contemplating this refurb.
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dlatham@budsbenz.com, jack@gahh.com, info@gahh.com, bshore@budsbenz.com
Hi all,
I have spent the morning decomposing my driver seat so we have a really solid base to make some comparisons on.
First up the seat I have taken apart is factory bearing the original 113 part number sticker correct for an early 230sl. The only non standard feature is a non standard external cover that has been put on it at some stage in its life.
I have the original pad out off the seat frame and have been measuring and comparing it along side the one GAHH has supplied out of Mexico.
I have taken detailed measurements of the early 230sl seat frame, the original early 230sl seat pad and the new GAHH 280sl pad.
I have also taken over 70 hi res photos as I have progressed to ensure we have enough information to proceed.
I have also taken detailed measurements of the matching leather seat cover supplied by GAHH.
My main findings which will more than likely cause issues are as follows (the ones in red concern me the most):
1) The GAHH pad is 35-40mm longer than the factory 230sl pad
2) The GAHH paid is ~30mm wider at the front of the pad
3) The GAHH pad is ~30mm narrower at the rear of the pad
4) The GAHH pad is ~10mm narrower than the factory 230sl frame at the rear of the seat
5) The GAHH pad is ~10mm wider than the factory 230sl frame at the front of the seat
6) The GAHH pad is 10 to 30mm thicker than the factory 230sl pad looking at the side profile
7) The GAHH pad has a different profile than the factory 230sl pad looking at the front edge of the seat and varies from 0mm in the center to 30mm on the outer edges from the factory pad.
8) The GAHH pad is around 5mm thicker than the factory 230sl pad looking from the rear of the pads
9) The GAHH leather seat cover matches the profile of the 280sl GAHH supplied seat pad with the exception of the cut out notch.
10) The GAHH leather seat cover is to large to fit snugly over the factory 230sl pad. The difference is basically the difference in the dimensions measure above.
Guys off all these findings the one that worries me the most are now 9 and 10. David mentioned to me that if I didn't get new seat pad that I would have fitment issues. David have you ever had a customer who tried to fit GAHH covers to early seat pads. I would be interested to see the results. Without padding to hell the fitment would be very very baggy and look pretty bad I would imagine.
If you can tell me where to from here I would be most appreciative. In order to continue the following nasty shortcuts would have to be made
1) Cant reduce the length of the pad as it matches the seat cover length so the front lip of the pad would be overhanging the front of the frame by more than 35-40mm.
2) The rear of the seat would have to have the slot opened up at least 5mm on each side to allow it to go over the frame. This would decrease the strength of the lip.
3) The rear of the seat will cuse issues with the GAHH pad having one of its sides straight where the 230sl the pockets both taper toward the center of the seat. I am not sure how we are going to get around this. I need guidance from someone and a good solid solution proposed.
I have uploaded all the photos and the dimension sketches I did. They can be accessed from this link
My gut feeling is that this pad cannot be made to fit 'properly' without turning it into an absolute Frankenstein. I will research it again tonight but I have read somewhere on the 113.org site that the only way to do this is to get two sets of bottom pads and cut and tuck to suit.
Jack can you please confirm from your patterns that the 230 and 280 seat covers have identical measurement other than the cutout. If they do then I would suggest that a mistake has been made in creating the patterns and that they were all made off the 280 pad as a base.
Brad suggested this morning that I butcher my original 230sl pad but my felling here is that these should be preserved no matter what as a last bastion fall back if all else goes to ****. After all the pads are NLA. For love or money I probably would even be able to get another shitty second had set.
Brad and Jack can you also confirm if you have ever had issues with saggy fitting seat cover where the customer has elected to not replace the pads. You may have put this down to tired old pads where the real problem is the differences highlighted in this email.
Back to you gentlemen for comment.
Please feel free to take a close look at all the comparison photos and measurement sketches on the following link in blue below. Just click on it and it will take you to the pics.
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=9C6D25994A012D12%21325
Regards
Andy Burns
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Andy,
This is what i have that may be of some help. I believe it is an old Becker Europa, someone may be able to recognise if that is so but I am fairly certain it is.
Would this be of any help. I purchased it from another member then carried it back from UK a few years ago with the intent of using parts for repairing my other cars radio but never used it. If it is of use you can have it for what I paid plus postage.
Let me now if you can use it.
Garry
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Hi Garry, thanks so much for your efforts. Unfortunately that unit isn't going to work. The Europa did not carry the wunderbar which was powered through a separate circuit controlled through the amp. I have a Europa amp here which is what I tested the unit with. Everything works other than the wunderbar. This one feature is non negotiable with the restoration and has been the subject of my fascination since I was a little nipper. Thank you so much for pulling that out of your spare parts and giving it a go. Wonderful of you!
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Never mind, Just thought it may have the spares, I am not quite sure what the wunderbar is? I am assuming it is the search bar that can move the tuning to the next station. My current Becker has it along with a cassette player (which is not working) and the small knobs but I have a horrible feeling that my radio may be a later 70’s one. (Photo attached)
On the seats, I have only a week ago got my new leather seats from GAHH via Buds and they appear to be correct for my seat. I was planning to reuse my seat pads, maybe not a good idea.
How early is your car. Do the seats not have the indentation on the left and right hand side for the seat lever?
Garry
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Hi Garry, if you radio is operation dont part it out. Almost the same level of sacrilege as parting a pagoda. They are also soaring in value. I think you would get a surprise if you chucked it back on ebay. The parts are not an issue. I am not adverse to putting in a modern electrolytic cap. No one will ever see it and it will operate identically if not better than its predecessor. Just need the identification.
Bigger fish to fry today with the seats. Mine are early correct 230 pads. If you have purchased early 230 covers without the cutout, with straight edges, then you will almost certainly have the same problem as I do. The original seat pads are not as large and unless you buffer out the new covers I would almost certainly expect you will not get a taught professional looking job. Take a look at all the pictures I posted. They should give you a very good idea of the issue.
I have GAHH working on a solution so will definitely be reporting back over the next couple of days with their response. I could be stressing over nothing but I have physically had my early seat pad in the GAHH cover and its a very loose fit.
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Andy
As a '65, mine are with the cut-ins and what GAHH have sent appear to be their “B” type and correct for me.
Not so sure about my existing Becker Mexico with tape player!
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Garry just saw the pic of your radio. Beautiful. I have the slim line version without the tape deck. How did you get the early knobs to fit. Very well done. My car is an early 64 and at this time becker were in the process of converting from valves to transistors thus the TR insignia. The mexico tape deck didn't come out until quite late in the pieces. I would pick almost 70-71. Does your all work. Becker had a string of firsts and patents including auto reverse, and the auto tuning (wunderbar as some people call it). Just looks so beautiful on the dash. I cant wait till mine is in and working. Slowly getting there.
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Am sure you will be ok then Garry, guess its just another example of how the early stuff is so much harder to source parts for. I really like the look of the early seats. The are much thinner looking to my eye. Just compliments all the other more dainty unique features of the early cars. Only downside is it just comes at a price. I didn't know that the 230s changed to the later type of seats. Thought all of them had the early ones. Do you know when Mercedes made the change?
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Thought mine were the narrow seats, certainly narrower than the 280 I had. There must be an earlier one again, Dont know the dates on the changes. What yearis your car.
The knobs just have the very fine Phillips screw that holds them in place. Hated the larger ones and they looked out of place but I do like the radio and will not change it to the earlier one as it works well other than the tape at this point.
Garry
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Hi Garry, I am almost 100% certain that there were every only two lower seat pads. I have the original part numbers here for them somewhere. You can still buy the latter ones from mercedes but the early ones are unobtainable. Neither do any of the aftermarket manufacturers make direct equivalent replacements for the early style.
My car is an early 64 but I dont think that is a determinant here. If the seat lower seat pad is symmetrical then its early. If its not symmetrical and has the recess cut out then its late.
Both David from Buds and Jack from GAHH have both suggested to me as solution is to find and old late model seat and take the base off it and use the frame to take the late model cushion. ie Frankenstein seat with late model base and early model back. Or just make the late model pad 'work' with the early model frame. No thanks! Frankenstein and me have just never seen eye to eye and dont much enjoy one another s company.
I would suspect that plenty of owners have gone down this track. In fact I have seen quite a few early 230's on ebay and also the Beverly Hill Car Hatchery (http://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com) where it obvious the covers have been replaces and done very very badly with the base pad been replaced with the late 280 style while the back rest has been left early. Take a look at the photo below. It make me feel quite queezy just looking at it. Was off a early 230.
See how the upper pads covers are both loose, it will be because they have fitted a late model cover set over a replacement late model lower pad but left the upper pads in place. The late model upper pads are much thicker so the covers have more depth. GAHH 'shave' the upper pads for early 230's before sending them if you want to fit an early cover or else you would get the reverse of this problem with the covers being to small to clear the larger pad.
So just a word of caution when you go to fit your up as well, make sure you upholstery guy is well informed and knows what to look out for or you may end up with a set of seats that look like the photo.
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Totally agree Andy that those seat backs look terrible.
My base is the same as the photo and I believe what i have received will fit up ok. Again I agree that GAHH who had both straight sided “A” covers and indented “B” covers available should have provided their “A” base seat covers to suit your seats otherwise they would not be correct and a ‘frankenstien’ as you suggest. I gather they have sent you the “B” seat set in error.
The backs in the photo look the same thickness as mine but having had a look at my seat and how the new leather is to be fitted, I would suggest that the red one pictured has just been badly fitted. With the seat back removed, it appears the leathers should be able to be tautly fitted. As an early 230, are your seats thinner again?
Garry
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Garry I was sent an early A set of covers, a late 280 base pad and a 'shaved' 280 back pad. The covers are fitted with a stitched in thick cardboard rib which hooks over the seat frame into a channel. There is really very little adjustment the fitter has available to him or her when fitting these up. So to that extent I don't know if you can really fit them badly. I guess I will find more about it as I go through the journey. Cant afford to get any of the upholstery done professionally so its now a matter of having no choice but to give it a go myself.
If you got into a situation where the cover was very loose on the frame your only recourse would be to unpick the ribbing off the seat cover and trim it back to suit then stitch back on the ribbing. Not something I wish to entertain.
This is really the crux of the point I have been trying to make is that if you want the covers to fit first time and with little angst then pay very very particular attention to what set up you have. Of course anything can be made to 'work' but personally I would rather steer clear of the associated stress of bespoke modification. It is a killer. As I said in an earlier post fitting parts out of the box is now stuff wet dreams are made out of.... for me anyway :o
Has anyone in here fitted up seats themselves. It would be fantastic to here a first hand account.
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Horn Button Refurb - Final Chapter
Got my chrome horn button bits and pieces back from the electroplaters yesterday. Set about polishing the original horn button ring before I painted it. Really got it sparkling with very find polishing compound and paper before I painted it with a good quality modelling enamel.
Once it dried I reassembled. If your going to try this the key to getting the thing back together is getting all the small lock tabs on the inner central ring dead straight without snapping them off. I used a very fine pair of broad needle nose pliers. Also ensure that all leather is kept well clear of the openings for the lock tab or you will run into tolerance problems.
It still took me a good half an hour to get it in cleanly. I used a bit of lanolin to lubricate its path.
The outer ring is easy to snap over the rim provided the edges of the leather are cut cleanly. All in all just a bit of patience will see you right.
The last photo here is my refurbeb button up along side a brand new factory item. I think the feel and smell of the leather are much nicer than the imitation plastic factory versions. Cant wait to fit it to the car!
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Put down the last of the sound dead material in the cockpit last night. I ran out while I was doing the job a month or so ago and havn't got around finishing it. I needed to get it done to get the final dash components back and move on so I bit the bullet and purchased enough new material to finish this job and also do the soft top well and boot.
The final part of the cock pit was the hardest place to access. I ended up very sore after 2 hours of jumping in and out of the car. I kind of rushed it a bit so the result wasn't perfect but its good enough and isn't seen so you can afford to get a little sloppy.
Again the templates are a must. You cant just stick this stuff down and trim latter. Its to thick and unpliable. Also in these tricky areas it also pays once your template is cut to do a trial fit up with all the backing paper still intact. You can mold the material to the basic shape and figure out how once the back is off you can manoeuvre the material into place without touching anything else. This sounds simple enough but if you cock it up you will be throwing that part away.
Good to have this chapter finished now. Can really move on and finish the dash.
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Andy
Another thing I did on my floors, not quite original but makes a huge difference in sound is fix an under-felt to the carpet then tape off the edges and spray it with an underbody deadener. Additionally I have a second piece of felt that is rubber covered under the final carpet as well and on top of that I have the coco mats! That way your carpet doesn’t ever get wet and manky and the second backing piece is easily replaced it water does get in there
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Garry, Andy,
I've often wondered why people go to such lengths to apply sound deadening to a convertible. With he roof down its always going to noisy. With regards hood up the wind noise will always be considerable. The only benefit I can imagine is when driving with the hard top on. Am I missing something?
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Hi James, I don't think I have gone over board.... at this point. Just replicated what was put on at the factory. Am guessing it was for a good reason, probably anti drumming. I think it would certainly be 10 times as noisy in the cabin if you didn't apply anything. I suppose at the end of the day you either trust in what others are telling you or try the suck and see approach yourself. I have read in the pages of this forum at least 5 other people who have reported significant 'comfort level improvements' by adding sound dead material.
I am not honestly personally not that fussed. I come from a rip snorting little four cylinder background. More so if I ever want my wife beside me (she hated the noise, smell and ambiance of the bmw 2002tii) I will have to start to think about how to make the car a bit more civilized if any protests are forthcoming. Happy wife, happy life as they say. :D
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I've often wondered why people go to such lengths to apply sound deadening to a convertible. With he roof down its always going to noisy. With regards hood up the wind noise will always be considerable. The only benefit I can imagine is when driving with the hard top on. Am I missing something?
Yes, but I cannot tell you :o ;)
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Hi: Looks like it coming along nicely.
When you do the sub frame, be sure to replace the sub frame mounts no matter how good they may look.
From experience, if the sub frame mounts are bad you will ruin the drive shaft coupler in short order and then it will be a murderous job to replace it when your baby is all together. You will also want to replace ALL the rubber bushing. It will ride like new automobile.
Keep us posted on you progress.
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Cheers Ron, thanks for the tip. At the time I put back the sub frame I inspected the mounts very very carefully and they were fine. All the rubber was selected from best bits from four or five sub frames I have hoarded over the years. I am sure it will be up to the task. I didn't pay as much attention to my 280se sub frame and it now drives like a new car. You are right in that a lot of perceivable driving slop comes from what hangs off the frame!
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Garry, Andy, I've often wondered why people go to such lengths to apply sound deadening to a convertible. With he roof down its always going to noisy. With regards hood up the wind noise will always be considerable. The only benefit I can imagine is when driving with the hard top on. Am I missing something?
James,
it is about cancelling some type of noise to better hear the other type of noises. Such as the conversation your SO is having with you ;)
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Dash Resto Part 1
Had a great day today at the main New Zealand classic car show for the year. Lots of beautiful cars including the normal mercedes offerings. Really got my enthusiasm going. I have been a bit down in the dumps recently with a really sore foot that has got a nasty case of arthritis that I cant seem to get a handle on. Really slowed me down a bit recently but after seeing the sights today I came home with a new found resolve.
Decided to plunge into the upholstery. I was going to get it done professionally but have struggled to get someone to commit to it unless I move the entire car to their workshops. Dont really want to let it out of my sight at the moment as I cant do other stuff on it. I was hoping for a mobile service, perhaps working at my house for a couple of days to get it all done. I had one guy who has done one before and quoted around 3-4k to fit the leather and carpet. He didn't want to touch the soft top.
Anyway, have decided to give it all a crack myself and start with the hardest piece first. Figure if I crack this the rest will be easy. So start with the curves of the instrument cowl.
Started with stripping all the old material of the delicate wood cowl. Just had to be 100% sure at all times not to damage the delicate tabs on the back and front of the unit. Wouldn't take much to snap them off.
Carefully peeled off the old crappy plastic cover. Not sure if this was original. Seemed to be quite a lot of messy application of glue to hold it in place but perhaps thats how mercedes rolled back in the day. Anyone care to shed some light on this and if you think this is original.
After all the plastic came off I had to carefully clean off all traces of the old glue. Important as if you left it in place you would almost definitely end up with lumps under your leather. Not a good look.
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Dash Resto Part 2
Once the cowl was sparkling clean I set about trimming some suitable leather out of the spanking new hide sent to me by Buds. Its quite intimidating making that first cut. When the hides are worth so much you dont want to muck up and waste any of it.
I spent quite a bit of time finding the right area on the perimeter of the hide to cut the leather from. Because the dash top is so visible I don't want any imperfections. The grain can be quite variable in places so careful selection was a prudent measure.
Made my cut and tucked the rest of the hide away so the dog doesn't chew it up or have and accident on it. He was taking quite a bit of interest in it while all the action was going on. This made me a bit nervous.
Before I sprayed any glue anywhere I came up with a plan of attack. Spent quite a while doing this which I think paid off in the finish of the job. Very easy for things to go wrong and end up with pulling or bunching. I have seen quite a few speedo cowls where things seemed to have gone a bit pear shaped especially around the front lip.
Keeping to my rule of doing the largest areas first I sprayed up the top of the cowl and most of the leather. Worked off the two high spots lowering the cowl onto the leather and then worked with a flat hand into the valley and down the sides. A few panicked moment when a bit of bunching started to go on down the back side of it but this was fixed pretty quickly with a bit of stretching.
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Dash Resto Part 3
Once all the main top surface was well sorted I started to work the back edge. It makes it much easier to stretch the leather over these acute angles when the majority of it is already well glued in places. The areas are going to be where the job looks like crap if you dont get a really good handle on even stretching.
At this point you have the opportunity to sit and play with the leather pulling it in all direction to get a feel for how to stretch it to get the best result. Really pays off.
Once I was confident I sprayed up the back edge and went to work. All good so moved on to the front. Its advisable to only work small sections at a time. You would end up in a mess if you tried to do the front and rear at the same time. Perhaps a guy who did this all day long may be able to cope but for me taking my time was key.
The front lip is much more critical. This is the one you stare at all the time so making a dogs dinner out of this was not an option. This is also by far the hardest edge to get right. There is an excess of material so getting it stretched correctly was paramount. Again I had a few nervous moments but it all panned out and I am thrilled with the result.
I finished up in the dark so havn't really got any good pics to show the result. I had to take some under flash which look quite washed out. The actual result looks much better and I am tickled pink.
Will try for one piece per day this week which will almost get the interior bits dusted before long. Dont know if I will detail all these as its just more of the same. Let me know if anyone is keen for it and I will try and oblige.
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Great job as usual Andy, looking forward to seeing the completed dash :)
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Come on, Andy. Don't deprive of us of any of the action now!
Lin
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.../... It makes it much easier to stretch the leather over these acute angles when the majority of it is already well glued in places. The areas are going to be where the job looks like crap if you dont get a really good handle on even stretching
An important step in order to obtain the delicate finish that can be seen on leather interiors made in Sindelfingen (M-B factory) is to shave the thickness of the leather down overall and/or at the edges, so that it is quite thin and malleable.
As I understand it, this is performed in special roller (rotary) cutting machines.
/Hans in Sweden
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Andy,
I finally dove into your thread and spent over an hour reading the pages. Wow! You are amazing for taking this project on with such Verve!
I am mid re-paint and am hiring the leather work out on my 70 280SL. The seats and soft top are done, but now have to do the soft-top cover leather which leads me to have to do the rest of the interior due to die lot concerns with the Cognac.
I had an idea that may be obvious for your Mexico Power amp. There are a couple of old stereo repair shops here in Columbus that love the challenge of fixing old transistor circuits. Tubes and capacitors are even better. I laugh when I walk in those places because the store is stacked with old WWII era radio consoles, Macintosh amps and Thorens turntables.
I'm sure there will be one or more of these shops by you in NZ. The guys who work there are mostly 60+ years old with gray ponytails, and usually have the Grateful Dead on in the shop. You may want to see if they can replace your burnt capacitor. I brought in an old 1950's Wollensak reel to reel machine to get working again and convert some of my dad's old "family" recordings to digital. They were excited to take on the task, and did a nice job. It did take a month though.
Can't wait to see the final product!
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH, USA
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Here's the Mexico TR amplifier circuit.
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Hi guys, thanks for all your replies. Dave thanks for the circuit diagram that is exacactly what I need. Absolute doddle now to repair it myself. All the components clearly labelled. If you could send me a higher res version I would be appreciative. The old eyes are squinting a bit to try and see things. Mike, if my repair doesn't work I will probably hunt around for a repair shop in NZ. Just a matter of finding one. They are more a word of mouth thing these days and dont usually advertise heavily. So might be a tall ask. In this day and age electronics are so throw away that these old shops struggle to survive. I know of one guy in Levin that may be able to help. A six hour drive mind you.
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Hi Andy, I have opened the Schematic that Dave B sent, in Adobe and save at 175%, even my tired old eyes can read this now. You can size it up and down as you wish. Would still give the amplifier to Pukekohe Hifi to look at if it was me, you have got enough to go on with elsewhere.
cheers
Rutger K
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I can send the larger version, it is easier to read. It's 2.4MB though, so can you PM me your email address?
Dave
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What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
Had a shocker today. Woke up with a very sore back. Drove 30km to work only to discover I couldn't even sit in my seat. Turned around and drove home. Tried going to bed but got bored after a couple of hours of surfing the internet so decided to utilize my time by driving 40km back into town to an upholstery supplier to buy some foam for the the dash topper and the rest of the interior bits and pieces.
I have used this crowd before and knew they had exactly what I wanted. When I got there I was greeted with an empty abandoned building. Went for my smart phone to check on the internet to discover I had left it at home. Drove the 40km's home with the proverbial tail between legs. Went to bed and slept for 3 hours!
Determined to recover some of the day I sorted through the rest of the panels that don't appear to have any foam. Decided to start on the A pillar covers. Does anyone know if they are supposed to have foam under them. I couldn't tell from the mess that was present. I think they probably don't have any.
Annoyed with lack of progress. Still have a very large pile to get through. Wouldn't it be great if you could replicate yourself.
Also a big thanks to Dave and Rodger. I have clearly identified the two components I need to fix my amp and have started trying to find on the new sources for authentic replacement components. Have decided to do it properly even if it costs a couple of bucks extra.
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Dash Resto - Part 4
Started on the main dashboard pad today. Its anatomy is a 1mm thin aluminum shell with a 6mm sheet of open cell foam glued to it and then the final sheet of leather or vinyl pulled over the top and glued off on the back surface. Mine also has a 10mm closed cell dense foam lip glued all the way along the front edge. I dont know if this is standard and would very much appreciate anyone who is in the 'know' to comment on how it should have been.
I do know that the 230 had a much more pronounced sharp leading edge in comparison to the 280. I would like to get mine back to looking as it should. I feel that from the factory they would have simply pulled the open cell foam right the way around the leading edge and then just upholstered over it. I have seen a few original dash pads where the leading lip has gone all loose due to the foam collapsing. I am guessing the last guy to do the upholstery probably saw this and tried to mitigate the problem by using the lip of much more durable closed cell foam.
It took quite some doing to pluck off all the old foam. I am almost certain now that the foam I took off is not original. Absolutely sucked up my solvent N. Am wondering if I should have used paint stripper on it now. Would have cost less and probably have taken half the time.
Anyway one step closer.
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One thing I forgot to add is that I had done a bit more research on glue. Have decided to change from Ados Ultra High strength to Ados F38. The F38 is heat rated to 180c and the Ultra High only around 90. Still probably ok but dont want to take any more risks. Probably should have used F38 on the instrument cowl but too late now. As a test I left the Cowl out all day in the baking sun today and it didn't show any sign of letting go.
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I have clearly identified the two components I need to fix my amp and have started trying to find on the new sources for authentic replacement components. Have decided to do it properly even if it costs a couple of bucks extra.
Andy, be careful here: you might want to rethink "authentic" replacements, if any of those parts are capacitors or other electronic components that fit into the "organic" category. Finding someone with NOS, authentic components might sound like a windfall of success until you realize that a 40+ year old capacitor is, well, OLD. Any kind of electronic component that involves plastic (caps are a big one here) should be replaced with something brand spanking new. So, when you find authentic, just be careful.
Plastic breaks down; and plastic film dielectric is an essential part of a capacitor. If the part is a polarized, electrolytic capacitor, don't ever think of using an old one. I don't know what parts you need, but go for newly manufactured.
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Dash Resto Part 1
Had a great day today at the main New Zealand classic car show for the year. Lots of beautiful cars including the normal mercedes offerings. Really got my enthusiasm going. (...) Decided to plunge into the upholstery. I was going to get it done professionally but have struggled to get someone to commit to it unless I move the entire car to their workshops. (...) Anyway, have decided to give it all a crack myself and start with the hardest piece first. Figure if I crack this the rest will be easy.
I did a bit of cut and paste, but I think this summarizes the spirit of this restoration quite well. Scared of nothing. Just diving into it! Way to go Andy, it will pay off, the result is going to be outstanding and you will have the unique satisfaction of having done everything by yourself!
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Hi GGR, just kind words like yours that keep me going. Very soothing indeed! To be honest at the moment I am struggling through the pain of arthritis which has this week got the better of me. Michael, the only issue is that sometime you struggle to get modern components with the same ratings as the old stuff. I have chatted to a couple of guys in New Zealand from the antique radio society who are helping me out with advice. Either way, old or new, once I have the new components its a 10 minute job to fix. I am looking forward to getting the radio mounted up in the dash, in my humble opinion kind of the crown jewel. Need to start thinking about aerial selection next. Have always loved the little red tipped ones but know they arn't period.
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Hi Andy,
Sorry to hear you're under the weather (is it literally weather-related?), hope things improve soon.
Like Gael, I'm sure many of us enjoyed the "start with the hardest piece first" approach!
Other upholstery problems I see on many restored cars are the compound curves on each end of the dash, the 90 degree bend on each end of the soft top cover and the front edges of the door panels. Your techniques really seem to work though, the horn pad and instrument pod certainly look good.
I believe that 10mm strip of dense foam on your car is probably original and it looks good enough to stay there. I don't think the thin foam sheet continues over that dense foam strip (or the A-pillar covers) but I'm not sure because, as you know, the thin foam degrades to almost nothing even in places where it originally was installed, like the dash top. Alfred or Achim may know.
IMO the ultimate period-correct antenna for your car is the Hirschmann automatic 6000D58 - see photos. This is one solid piece of work weighing around 3kg. Seeing as the antenna is completely hidden in the front fender though, I guess you would be fine installing later model. Or a manual version but I can't help thinking that sooner or later someone would bend it!
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As I will require some high temp adhesive at some stage in the future I tried UK Ebay, for the ADOS F38 the results were interesting, I feel sure Stan can use some in his picture album.
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Dash Resto Part 5
Got to work covering the ali with foam. Quite easy, just make sure everything is dead even. Got a bit of advice from an upholsterer on how to tackle the job. He suggested stretching leather from one end to the other first and then glue up the edge that is visible from the seating position first and stretch the leather back to the windscreen edge. Reason being that you have got better control and can get more even pressure over the front lip.
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Dash Resto - Part 6
Selected the leather from the shank section of the cow as the leather is suppose to be the most subtle here and able to stretch further which is what you need for the hard corner pieces.
Got to work and made pretty quick work of putting the leather on. Took all the professional advice which made things much easier.
Got to the tricky part and spent a couple of hours shaving the leather with 60 grit sand paper by hand. Certainly makes thing much easier when the leather is down to half its original thickness.
And then .........................................
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Dash Resto - Part 7
To much heat or pressure, or both, and the dreaded sound of leather ripping. This was 3am in the garage. Am sure the neighbors were woken with strange profanities rolling in out of the darkness.
Will strip the leather off today. Hopefully I will not need to do the foam again abut am guessing that around the edges some of the glue may have got on the foam in which case it will come away with the leather and I will be starting again from scratch.
Next time I think I will shave the leather before I start. Will be much easier. If anyone else can give me any further pointers I would be appreciative.
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Waste Not Want Not
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Dash Resto - Part 8
Worked tonight on the A Pillar moldings. I reused the leather from the stuffed up dash pad. Just enough. Had to clean off a bit of glue or I would have had irregularities but other than that all good.
Unlike the instrument pod I decided not to glue the outward facing surface rather just the leather that hooked behind the molding. Even though I sprayed the instrument pod with a very even coat of glue you can just start to see the irregularities showing through. Unless you looked really really hard you wouldn't see but all the less if you know what to look for its an imperfection.
So used the same technique as I described for the dash. First glued one end off and then stretched the leather end to end and secured the other end. Then simply worked from the center out. The front surface is convex so work in well with the technique. Having no glue under the leading surface has paid off with a really beautiful perfectly uniform look to it.
Really beat myself up over the dash pad failure so can go to bed tonight with a bit of peace of mind.
Tomorrow I think I will do the leather that runs along the top of the wind screen. After that I can theoretically put back the screen itself. On that matter am wondering what you guys think about the blue/green sun strike strips that run along the top of the screens. I am not sure I like it and am thinking of replacing with a screen without this if its cost effective. I am wondering if it will look a bit strange against the silver paint work. Food for thought and definitely something to consider another day.
Night All. sweet pagoda dreams.
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Dash Resto - Part 9
Valentines day today so figured I better pay a bit of attention to the better half for the majority of the day. I did manage to sneak away this afternoon to start the windscreen frame. Quite easy after all the dash malarkey.
One thing I really do want to do is put the screen in. I am interested in listening to anyone who thinks this a bad idea at this point. I cant see any difficulties in getting the rest of the dash components in after the screen goes in.
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Andy,
It is normal to put the wood in before the windscreen goes in otherwise it is such a tight fit that often the leather is scratched and it is just much easier working on the dash and down through the speaker hole for the heater items to put in window last.
Garry
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Andy,
Keep up the great work. I think the clocks must run different down under ... based on how much you get done, I think you have more hours in the day and more days in the week than the rest of us ... keep it up.
Everything is looking so perfect ... I hope you're gonna drive it and not want to place it in a glass box.
beautiful work ... would love to see it one day.
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Garry, am interested in your experience and want to drill down on a few concerns I still have. When I trial fit my wood it only leaves a very small 4-5mm gap between the front face of the wood and the windscreen steel lip. Just looking at it my initial thoughts would be that it would make getting the screen in much more difficult. I will be more than likely using the old rope technique to get the screen back in and the more clearance around the screen the better to work the rope.
The main dash pad components seem to slip in from the front so I dont think these are an issue at all. Just how tight the wood is to get in being the big question. The W108 wood is a complete nightmare with only one piece of wood reaching the whole way across the dash. To get it in you have to put a hideous amount of bow to clear the A pillar. Almost stops my heart each time I have done it. Especially so after you spend so much time restoring the wood.
The 113 wood in two pieces seems like a piece of cake in comparison. I may however be missing something and would love a better detailed explanation of exactly what the clearance difficulties are.
Kampala, I love your compliments. I think if you were here in person and could see the work up close you wouldn't be so complimentary! Some of it is very DIY. I am struggling with time after getting back to work again. Last thing you feel like doing after 8 hours in front of a computer is another 3-4 hours of grind on the car. Being crook this week has however given me a bit of a cheeky opportunity to 'catch up'. Hopefully the arthristis will abate and let me put some more acid on the project. I am actually getting quite frustrated with the lack of progress. I was reading back through some of my early posts and noted a goal of having the car back on the road in 6 months. That was over 12 months ago!
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Having heard all the terrible stories of trying to get the wood in after fitting the windscreen, it was just about the last item that I fitted. I actually drove it to a windscreen replacement workshop with out the windscreen in and paid $600 for a new screen supplied and fitted. I supplied the rubber seal that was an OEM item after they refused to use the non OEM seal I had.
I have used the same repair facility to fit a new screen in my 230SL for a little bit more last year.
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Garry you have my attention. I also have a OEM rubber. The one that came with the car was terrible. I dont actually have good enough wood to put back in the car at present. Have to figure out if mine is repairable or I should get another entire set. I would dearly love to keep as much stuff original but one of the previous owners sanded the **** out of them and painted them a very dark color to hide up the atrocity.
Just want to keep the resto rolling and would be great to get the screen off the back wall! Best listen to you advice and practice a bit of patience.
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On the wood, mine was in a similar state and very warped so I took the plunge and purchased just the dash wood from SLS and had it fitted whilst the screen was out.
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Garry, how much for new wood. I am picking it would be north of 1k? I am wondering if mine is repairable. Its just gone through the veneer in a couple of place otherwise is mint. Frustrating. I have restored quite a few W108 dash wood pieces with awesome results. But when it comes to damage to the veneer I am right out of my depths. Contacted a few fine furniture makers in Auckland and none are interested. The curves to bend new veneer around make the eyes waters. I think it would make the dash recover look like a walk in the park!
Another point of interest to me is also the thinning of the leather before fitting. After fitting up the screen leather today I am wondering if the thickness of the leather curled over the same surface the screen rubber seats on would effect things at all. I am picking not. The material I removed would be around .6 to .8mm where the leather is around 2mm. So only 2mm the difference. I agree the leather needs to be thinned to stretch it around the dash but am wondering exactly where else on the car this 'thinning' process is required.
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Hi Andy, I don't want to cause confusion here but like you suggested it is much easier to
put the windscreen in without the wood in place. Fitting the wood after is a bit fiddly but
not too difficult especially when your dash is completely stripped. I agree that it is easier to fit
some of the heater controls etc without the screen in place.
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Hi Larry, I have totally sorted all the heater control they all move as if 'buttered'. Also spent ages adjusting the cables so all the levers home perfectly on the left and right stops in conjunction to one another. Dont think I will have to pull them out for quite some time. Have you put the screen in yourself. I intend to give it a crack myself. I do have an experienced installer available but he wants 200 for the job which will take no more than an hour. I am in the wrong profession!
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Andy,
I see the wood for dash excluding speaker is 351Euro or all pieces (4) for 529Euro. (plus shipping) from SLS. I just purchased the front two items and then reworked the speaker wood to their colour.
As Larry has had experience with fitting his own wood and windscreen and you are planning to do the same then his comments are more appropriate than mine as I just gave it to the Windscreen replacement shop for the windscreen after I had done the dash and had a price quoted that they stuck with. I suspect they probably cursed but then again, it was the second one they had done for me so has some experience.
Another area where shaving/thinning works is the steering hub which you have already done and also around the edges to the door cards so that they fit back into the chrome edge trims. If too thick then the cards will not fit back into the chrome.
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Hi Andy, I helped a more experienced guy put my windscreen in, he got me to remove the wood,
not much fun with an intact dash! He used the rope method, all over in minutes.
Most time was spent fitting the rubber to the screen before hand. The aluminium insert is fitted
before fitting screen to the car.
I think if not experienced then two pairs of hands might be the best.
You don't want to damage that new paint :'(
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Also he used plenty of lube, not sure what it was, definitely NOT washing up liquid :-[
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Hi,
I concur completely with Larry, having been through this excersize the last months myself.
Did the windshield myself after installing the leather covered dash paddings first.
Used the rope method with lots of glycerine soap to lube and no wood in the way.
Biggest hassle was to get the rubber sel and aluminium trim pieces properly in place before the installation of the WS.
Installing the WS with the wood in the car is possible, but you risk damaging the wood and you have no visual control that the seal
Is properly seated at the bottom when pulling the seal-lip over the edge.
I opted to have all the dash padding professionally done by my German upholstry guy, and it turned out very well.
As some have said, it is very important to have all leather that is used for these parts professionally shaved down, I think the shaved leather was less than half the thickness of the original unshaved hide.
Installed the wood with some protective towels on the dash, and some isolation tape on the screw threads to avoid damage to the leather parts, all went in with no big problems.
Hans
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Dash Resto Part 9
Been working on the top of the screen again. Turned out to be much harder than I thought. After everything was glued up I discovered that all the chrome trim was a very very tight fit over the new leather. Again another place where the leather had to be shaved to get things right. Off it all came again and out with the sand paper. This time I was a bit better prepared in terms of knowledge. It paid off and it all went back on with not much fuss as all. Good to have everything ready for the screen to go back in which i will do this week. The brand new oem rubber will pull the leather tight further after installation. I have hopefully left just enough slack in the leather for it to pull up nice and even. Fingers crossed.
In regards to the dash pad I have decided after careful examination to leave this off as well while the screen is going in. I can be slid in from the front of the car and leaving it in place will just risk damaging it. Also give me a bit of wriggle room on when I have to actually do the leather work on it.
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I have the screen guy booked to help put the glass back in. Sixty dollars cash which given the cost of all the materials involved I figure is very cheap insurance. The risk that I might damage something is much higher and the guy I have got coming is a specialist in old school rubber installs. As much as I would love to do it myself pride does come before a fall as they say.
Does anyone out there think that I wont be able to fit my dash pads after the glass is in? Its quite major to me at the moment. From the looks of it the pad should slide in from the front but I would still love confirmation from someone who has removed and reinstalled the pad with the screen in.
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Hi Andy, yes it is possible but like most things on this car, a bit of a challenge!
Mostly it is a case of getting the angles right when manoeuvring the parts so
nothing should be forced. Stripped mine when I re sprayed the dash.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks Larry, that is all I need and confirms what I thought. Having just one person ratifying your thoughts is sometimes very soothing to the soul :D
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Have the windscreen guy coming in the morning. Frantically cleaned up the screen this afternoon when I got home from work. I promised him everything would be ready to go and all components nice and clean. He didn't sound to enthralled about the job. We live a little bit off the beaten track and its outside his normal area.
While cleaning the screen I found some quite old neat window stickers that by law people had to display in the early 80's to indicate which day of the week you couldn't drive your car. Called 'car less days' they were something to do with saving the economy are the oil crisis of the 70's. I was to young to really remember well. I have left them on for the time being until I decide if they should stay or not.
Once I got the screen cleaned up I had to apply the paint around the air vents. Mixed up 250ml of 2k satin black and applied it with a paint brush to the metal surfaces surround the dash and around the speaker grill. I am almost certain that this is how it was applied at the factory after reviewing some of the dismantling photos and finding very rough brush strokes. Dare say my paint was applied with a bit more care than at the factory.
While I had the paint mixed I gave the front nose cone bits a first coat as well. These were also brushed on as well. Looks quite perculiar up against the pristine silver paint but that's how they rolled at the big MB HQ
All screen parts all laid out and waiting for my new best friend.
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Windscreen back in the car after a 3 hour vigil. I am soooooo glad I made to call to get the professionals in. Stood over and watched and definitely could not have got the same result.
So many tricks and techniques when things start to go South. I would have stumbled at the first hurdle and more than likely screwed the very expensive brand new polished ali inserts.
In any event I am tickled pink with the result. Absolutely superb! Really brought the car to life and given me a huge injection of enthusiasm to push ahead.
One parting piece of advice.... never never never try this at home when for 100 dollars you can get the pros on board. To many things to go wrong. Absolutely the right decision to put my pride on the back burner on this one!
One parting piece of advice (part 2)... if you have the option take off all the upper dash panels and instrument cowl cover as well as all the wood. It makes it much much easier to fit the screen properly and all the pieces can be put back in easily (with a bit of care) after the screen is back in. No risk, better job. Already trial fitted all pieces this afternoon to confirm this.
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Andy, looks great… fresh rubbers and chrome surrounds..
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Thanks Peter. Fresh rubbers and chrome surrounds are indeed the flavor of the day. Highly recommend if you ever have your screen out to take a dose of the same medicine.
.
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Andy,
What was the cost of the surround and where did you source it from? Mine is a bit ratty and I wouldn’t mind changing it depending on cost.
Garry
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Garry, I purchased the inserts about a year ago and from memory they were around 320NZ each. Not cheap. The factory rubber was around 220NZD. You cant replace the inserts without taking the screen out so I would count on 1k to 1.5k to do that job. The biggest problem I had with my car when I first got it was the screen. The previous owner had used a very poor aftermarket window rubber and slammed in very tatty looking inserts. Result was terrible and let the car down big time. All this has contributed to my excitement of getting it right this time around. Highly recommend!
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Cracked into all the under dash panels this weekend. These arn't that critical with only the leading edge being seen from the driver and passenger seated positions. The flat surface can only really be seen if you get your head down into the footwell and look skyward. Still I am going to try and get the best possible result.
Started by stripping the old ivory material off. Again I probably took to much care hoping the foam would be reusable. I takes quite a bit of effort to put new foam on and anything I dont have to restore is a really good thing.
Again the foam ripped off with the vinyl. Spent ages cleaning all the foam off and then stripping away the layers of glue to give the new leather the best chance of adhering. All along I was very careful the factory crayon marks. If you take cleaning solvent anywhere near crayon it vanishes in milliseconds. Probably added an extra hour to the job trying to preserve.
Cut and glued up new foam ready for final gluing.
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Choose the leather from the hide with a few imperfections. I am trying to save the best leather for dash tops and will probably use the piece right down the spine for this. Not as flexible but is quite consistent in grain and texture. Just have to carefully shave the hide back.
Cracked into the first piece and carefully worked the leather around the prominent face which is seen from the drivers position. It still quite challenging to stretch the leather around the outside curve without getting wrinkles or creases. Just carefully glue bit by bit and often have to undo bits if they have been stretched in the wrong direction. All very trial and error with a lot of patience thrown in for good measure. I would hate to think what a professional upholsterer would think if he watched me work. I am sure there would be a good deal of cringing going on. But as long as the result is right I don't care how many hours I am burning at this stage. The one piece I have finished today took me over an hour to get right. More than likely a pro would have nailed it in five minutes.
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Excellent work, Andy. Again!
I'm anxiously waiting for pictures of the top side panels.
I found the corner curves of the top panels by far the most difficult to get right. And I used vinyl which I believe is easier than leather...
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More of the same tonight after work. Quite tricky around the edge but a little patience and I think I have it better than what it was before. One more under dash panel to go and I will attempt the dash pad again.
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Did you buy yourself a skiving tool, and did you become familiar with its use? Or did you just jump right in?
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=skiving+tool&tag=mh0b-20&index=aps&hvadid=3527166367&ref=pd_sl_1gbv0b73jm_b
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Hi Michael, Nope just jumped right in the deep end. Probably should have started on the under dash panels first rather than the dash pads but didn't realize how tricky the angled ends are before I started.
I did know about the skiving tools. I think unless you have a machine which cuts the leather to a perfectly consistent thickness you may run into trouble with irregularities using the hand tool which may show through the leather. Even not putting the foam down perfectly consistently seems to show through. Also the leather I am using seems very thin to start off with. I was thinking using the hand tool could result in quite a few mistakes where you ended up going through the leather. Even holding thin leather while you skive it would probably be challenging. I am really interested in your experience using one though. If you can change my mind I will go out and buy one before I attempt my dash again.
For the under dash bits and pieces and the A pillar covers I personally don't think any leather needs to be thinned. I also think for keeping the leather durable its probably best to keep it at its original thickness as well. Again interested in everyone thoughts.
I liked the idea of others on the 113 forum who suggested using a belt sander to evenly reduce the thickness. You can easily control how much material you are taking out by graduating the belt grid. I started at 200 grit and found it to slow so changed up to 80 grit which worked much better. I finished up by hand with 150 when I got close.
Still quite nervous about trying the dash again but quietly confident I will get it right this time around. Even if I fail miserably I promise I will lay it all bare in here for everyone to have a good giggle at :)
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Worked today on the final under dash panel. Hardest out of the lot with the same basic shape, and problems, as the main dash top. Took quite a few hours to get this one right and almost lost my temper on several occasions. Managed to do this piece without any leather shaving as well.
Finished this and then discovered that there is one more piece of the under dash set, the pad that clips onto the glove compartment. Started looking at this and to my dismay discovered quite a mess that the last guy has left me.
I kind of have been relying on the bit of old upholstery for templates and to give me a cutting/trimming guide around the edges. Figured the last guy was more than likely a pro so after a life in the industry his way of trimming up would be optimal. I dont believe this to be the case with the glove box pad. Take a look! I am damned interested to get some photos of your cars to see exactly how this was done at the factory or by a top trim guy/girl.
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Dont know why but the glove compartment panel was absolutely smothered in contact adhesive. Took quite a while to get it all off. Lots of nooks and crannies. Like the other two under dash panels this one also bears the recess ends to tuck the leather into. The only difference this has three recesses rather than the two on the other panels. I have no idea how to work this and would love a side on view photo of a couple of other glove compartments to compare. I think the previous guy had it totally wrong.
The panel clean up quite well and like the other had one or two dents which I carefully tapped out to the best of my ability. Should just make the job that much crisper with nice straight edges.
Will sleep on this one and see if I can come up with a plan of attack. If anyone can assist with a few pics I would be most appreciative. Just open your glove compartment and snap this from a 45.
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Andy, quite happy to bring my 280SL over if it helps to see how the panel is covered. Give me a ring.
cheers
Rutger
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Had a bit of a crappy day today. On step forward and 5 back. Several months ago while I was in the guts of panel work I stepped back on this particular occasion and stepped lightly on the glove compartment door. Heard a horrible crack and realized that I had broken off the spring arm. On close inspection it had been broken before and had a pretty shoddy braze job which hadn't taken very well. Anyway just got around to attending to it today and did a pretty tidy job blasting the arm and hole before wrapping the site in wet rags to stop any heat soak and then mig welding it.
Quite proud of the result until after dressing it back going for a trial fit up and then realizing that I had welding it in 180 degrees in the wrong orientation. No swear words this time just a lot of deep sighing and wondering how the hell I am going to recover it.
My first thought are to take my dremel to it and try and break the weld. Now I am wondering if I should simply cut the arm 2cm up and weld it back on in the right orientation. Any thoughts other than how stupid this mistake is.
Start again tomorrow,
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Wow that's a bugger. We have all done stuff like this, difficult to keep ones cool!
Suggest you do what you are most comfortable with and allows most accurate alignment.
Again that was neat welding :-\
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Cheers for your kind words Larry. I still feel like a plonker though ;) Haven't made too many gaffs along the way and I guess it inevitable that one or two blinders like this come into the mix. The only positive to come out of them is to give you guys a bit a of chuckle. As the great saying goes 'if you cant laugh at yourself...'
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Personally I would cut the arm lower than 2cm and reweld. You could always put a pin in the center of the rod (drill 2 holes and pin it and then weld. Cut into the material a bit so you get a good weld even after grinding down to make smooth. who knows what kind of issues you will have if you start getting into the sheetmetal of the door.
I just did a similar thing welding my neighbour's rusty wheelbarrow together last week. I welded the handle upside down. We had a great chuckle.
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Its not the mistakes you make that define you, its how you deal with them.
Here endeth today's lesson ;D
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I like it Stick! Sounds as if you have a bit of poet/philosopher blood in you. Also agree with Bonnyboy after a nights reflection. Everything RHD is so hard to come by. I went to massive lengths to protect the thin sheet metal during the weld process and just don't want to risk distorting the front panel again. I can always get another arm off a LHD door and modify it to suit.
Problem I have now is that yesterday I used every last ounce of my argon shield. Turn up the gas to full bore to try and keep the weld cool. Now have to turn around and go and refill all the way back in town. Wish I had a bigger bottle!
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Went and picked up some more argon shield this morning. Then set about cutting and dressing the arm for the repair. Once I managed to get going the entire job only took 40 minutes.
Used the mig welder on almost it minimum setting of around 17v to ensure I didn't overwhelm the joint with infill material. One lesson I have learn t the hard way it that it takes an awful amount of time and effort to remove excess melted rod if your feed is up too high. And give the lack of access to the site and the 'delicate' nature of the arm I really didn't want to have to take a large quick grinder anywhere near it.
Lots of wet rags again draped around the base of the weld to ensure I didn't get too much heat into the sheet metal.
This tactics paid off and it only took 15 minute with the dremel and a fine grind stone to clean back the site. Not perfect but once I paint it up it shouldn't be too noticeable. Unlike Brabus I am not going to claim this is as good as when it left the factory ;)
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Proof of concept
Have had a minor breakthrough today with the upholstery. Discovered that our old 40 year old Elna sewing machine is quite capable of sewing the leather bits and pieces I thought were out of my reach and in the realms of an expensive auto trim guy. I wont be doing any of the critical stuff but things like the lining of the glove compartment and suddenly back on the table.
I pulled the old lining out of the glove box and deconstructed the stitch lines to see how the last guy had sewn it. Don't know if this is how it was done at the factory but it looks really professional and tidy so have decided to copy it.
Only had white thread in the machine a present which sort of worked in my favor as you can clearly see exactly how the stitching will look in its final form. Sewed up a couple of test pieces which look really good. Once all the leather is glued in place the joints wont be taking any load so pretty much there for cosmetic reasons only. So whats been done here is well good enough.
Also had a parcel arrive in the post this morning from Garry in Australia. He has kindly sent me a door lock barrel to see if it will overcome my current problems. Actually he has sent me three now but the first two went missing in the post. The kids have been racing each other every morning for the last two week to get to the mailbox to see if the package had arrived.
Unfortunately the one remaing barrel is the wrong type for my key. Stinking bad luck as I think there are only two types so had a 50 50 chance of nailing it.
Massive shout out to Garry for his generosity and help. Simply fantastic! Really appreciate it Garry. Let me know if I can ever return the favor.
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Andy,
A chalk line on the leather helps heaps to keep a straight line whilst sewing.
Really shame about the lock barrel. well we tried. One day just after you finally get the right one, the first two will turn up ::)
Hang on to the barrel, someone else may use it in future.
Garry
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Garry, thanks a million again. If anyone else needs a barrel let me know and I will happily keep the 113 parts merry go round in action.
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Andy, thanks for taking time out of your already frantic schedule to bead blast my rocker cover, and all the other many bits for my car today.
cheers
Rutger K
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Had a lazy day today. To keep up my one part per day target I mounted up my brand new indicator stalk. I had spent heaps of time repairing my old one. Managed to fix the indent problem but the crumbling baker-lite got the better or me and no amount of high strength epoxy glue seemed to hold it together. I contemplated trying to rob one off a 108 but in the end bit the bullet and paid a seemingly ridiculous price for a brand spanking new one. It is nice to know its back to factory new and good for another 50 years.
Not much problem installing it. Just had to feed a draw cable through the steering shroud and decompose the plug to just wires to get it through. For a while I have been wondering which female plug the indicator went into under the dash. Two side by side with identical configurations. The new indicator had a red tag on the cable which my old one didn't. This corresponded to the same on the loom under the dash. If I hadn't purchased the new indicator I probably would have plugged things in around the wrong way and fried my wiring so am quite happy to have that sorted.
Also finished up the repairs on the glove compartment door and then sanded it back with 400 dry and then 1000 wet ready for final top coats.
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Andy, I haven't read this entire post... just bits and pieces. What a job you are doing and the photos are awesome. Perhaps you've covered this but are you going to change the black steering wheel pad to ivory?
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Thanks Kevin, I want to leave a couple of small personalisations on the car and really want to a point of difference with the steering wheel button. I know its suppose to match the steering wheel but I am going to paint the hardtop and hub caps 050 black which will tie in with the button. I have thought about it on numerous occassions and think it will look ok. I also have an ivory gear shift ball which was given to me as a present by a good friend over a year ago. Want to pay him the respect and incorporate it into the 'scheme'. Should still look good without being garish! What do you all think?
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I'm an "all in" ivory guy but that's just me. The black pad/button with the black HT and horn button should look cool .
BTW, my original horn pad button was cracked so I bought a black one on eBay. I stripped the black paint off the back-side and painted it ivory with a $2.00 can of Krylon.
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Kevin, your car looks lovely. I really like your scheme as well. I totally restored the button from scratch as well. It was originally a ivory pad with ivory center. Converted everything to as you see it now.
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Sometime the F word doesn't even cover it!
I managed to find some finny handles a few days ago which were good enough to use for the rebuild on my door handle. I had a first quick go at re-cutting the pins to suit my key and to do a quick reassemble to ensure it was all going to work. Some of the parts are slightly different from the 113 so interchanging parts causes quite a few little headaches.
Anyway I managed to get it all back together again and it all operated nicely other than when I went to try my second key it was catching a little. I deliberated for a day or so and then my anal retentive nature kicked in and I just couldn't bear only having one key working perfectly.
Stripped it all down again and went to work on getting both keys working perfectly with the barrel. Used my dremel with a 80 grit sand paper paddle to slowly work the pins. All good a this point.
The only difficult part about putting these little suckers back together is the retaining clip that hold the main plunger spring in place. To put it mildly its a bit of a prick. I now know through blind experience how to do this without damaging things (will document this soon) but even then you have to be very careful not to damage things.
Guess what. Back to drawing board... mark 3.
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Here are some pictures showing the differences between the finny handle components and the early 113.
Some parts are readily interchangeable. The chrome handle and the arm that screw into the barrel are examples.
Some parts are not. The barrel and barrel holder are matched and must stay together.
The finny barrel also has this funky key way with a moon shaped key locking the barrel into the barrel holder. See photo. This caught me out the first time as when you disassemble it cant be seen through all the grime. I ended up trying to knock the barrel out of the hold with considerable force and completely stuffed it. To get it out is a bit of a mission. One of the three came out cleanly but the other two had rusted in place and needed to be jimmied out with a screw driver which did a little damage to the housing. It still fitted back in ok.
Also I have thrown in a photo showing how to get that dreaded retaining clip back on as easily as possible.
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Some more differences that you should also look out for are the rubber gaskets that sit under the handle. I got everything mixed up and tried to fit up some of the finny ones that came with the spare handles. Not a good idea. Then discovered that the 113 rubber is different from left to right. Dont mix this up either or you will be swearing.
After I fitted up the handles I have discovered that one of them has a very loose barrel with a lot of slop in it. When you rotate it to lock or unlock it the shaft is moving laterally to much and jamming the mechanism. So probably will have to haul it out again and sort this out somehow. Hoping it wont be too painful.
Big thanks to Kevin from Startech enterprises http://www.4mercs.co.nz/ for his help with the handles. Kev has a massive collection of 60's and 70's parts and is hugely knowledgable about all things Mercedes.
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Was wondering if there is someone out there with a car with leather interior who would be prepared to help me out with a few photos. Converting my car from mbtex to leather has caused a few headaches with the finishing of the leather. I believe that the fit up of leather is probably considerably different to vinyl which can be stretched and manipulated much more readily. I really want to get on with my dash components and believe that I can get a reasonable result, but am worried that the way I want to do it might not be the way a professional will approach. Mainly around how the edges are turned up around tight corners. Need a few photos of the main dash pad, glove compartment area and the soft top hatch.
Any help appreciated.
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Andy, I have a LHD 280 SL with the original leather interior and dash fitments. Here are some snaps. If you want anything further, or more detail just let me know.
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Two more
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Jonny, those are brilliant thank you so much. Wow, I really didn't expect to find someone with original leather. Sort of a holy grail in that respect. I would imagine that your car is very very rare in this respect. Given the number of leather conversions, or replacements I think the information that can be gathered from you car could prove invaluable to anyone contemplating this job.
I know from my car now that at some point an upholsterer has removed original material and did not pay attention to how it was put on by the factory resulting in the confusion I am now having to endure.
If you ever have your interior out you can glean so much more information from the back of these panels as to how the material was applied. If this is ever the case I suggest you take as many photos as you can and post them in here for future generations. As time goes by you leather in particular will become all the more unique. Just look at the sale of the black 300sl at Scottsdale auction this year. I think it reflects exactly what I elude to
I would really appreciate a couple more if you have the time. The upholstered bolster on the front of the glove compartment is of particular interest. The photo you posted showed the next panel along which I have already completed. It has one 'slot' in the side of it which has leather tucked into it.
The last guy who did mine did not make use of it and simply pulled the covering right over the top of the panel. I used it but until now didn't know if it was the right thing to do. I have seen other posts in here where people have asked the same question but until now I havn't found any answers.
It might seem like a pedantic detail to you guys but wait till you have put a couple of g's on the table for materials. Its a good incentive to get it right! I certainly don't want to be looking at it in another 12 months wanting to redo it again.
I had another shocker yesterday. Took the entire day of work to get some traction on my becker and also tackle the curved upper dash pads again. I decided that I would try and outsource the repair of the very simple push pull amp for the becker. Its one job I probably should be doing myself considering my background. But after a five day marathon with the locks I decided it would be prudent to get this done by someone who deals with this type of equipment on a daily basis. So I set about trying to find someone who was able and competent.
After a good couple of hours searching the internet I hit a guy who proclaimed to be a 35 year old radio tech. And all the better he lived only a 20 minute drive from my house. Fantastic... so I thought. I email him with photos of the unit interior and the schematic circuit diagram I got from in here. The guy responded back letting me know it was a simple amp and he could fix it for no more than 60nzd. Over the moon at this point. I couldn't have done it for any less than 5-10 hours of my time I guess.
After a drive through rush hour traffic I was still really optimistic that another 'pagoda problem' was going to get solved with minimal money and effort. This feeling has rapidly become a rarity for me since starting this project.
It took all of about 2 minutes for me to scope the guy had wasted my time. He struggled to even get the two screws securing the top lid off with his greasy oversized screwdriver. A good electronics tech would use the right tool.
I then watched in horror as he 'accidentally' snapped in half the baker light voltage key as is fossicked around int he internals at which point he proclaimed 'this unit is a bit delicate for my liking. Dont think I want attempt the repair'
I was kind of left speechless but quickly gathered my thoughts and decided it was for the best. In the mean time he had wrenched the baker lite key out and without my consent was gluing it back together with what looked like super glue. He then produced a 15 dollar multimeter to test if the tracks were broken. Again I would have expected a competent tech to at least have a decent fluke meter or the like.
Tail between legs I got in the car and drove another 20 minutes back home.
Decided on my arrival to tackle the small dash tip pieces. This time I would thin the leather down to almost paper like proportions to get it to stretch. I started the job with the up-most confidence the result would be positive.
I wont bother you with all the details but long story short after three hours of effort I now have two pieces of abused leather and a naked aluminum panel sitting on my desk.
I tried every tactic know to man, heat, steam, slow pressure. I even let the dog chew on it for a good 20 minutes to see if tenderisation by mouth would get me a result. Nada. I officially suck at leather work specifically where forming around tight complex corners are concerned.
Sleep didn't come easily to me after a day like this. I sat up till 3am this morning stewing about the money lost and the time wasted. I got back on the internet looking for solutions. Spent a good hour in here and read just about every post with the word 'leather' in it. Nothing I hadn't already tried sprang out.
Went further a field and started watching youtube videos on leather forming. My very last port of call today is going to be soaking the leather in near boiling water and forming it. Will try on some off cuts first to determine how pliable it makes the leather. Also the reading I have done suggests that shrinkage will occur when this method is used so I will have to stretch the leather further to compensate. It wont be able to be glued until its dried so this end to end method, if it works, will be a labor of love.
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Andy,
Here are a few more. Let me know if there are some other angles you would like to see. Don't know if I would call this a holy grail or not, but I am now the third steward of the car. For those that have been to PUB in the past, the car was there each time. Bob decided to sell in 2011, after almost 40 years of ownership! I stepped to the plate, and it now resides in Southern California.
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Thanks Jonny,
Really appreciate the extra pics. Gleaming heaps of info off them. Have you got any pics of the outside of the car on the forum anywhere? They have confirmed my suspicions that the channels are used with leather but not mbtex.
The one area I am really interested in is just out of sight. Can you take a look at the picture below and let me know if there is a second fold on the side of the bolster. Picture shows exactly where I am referring to.
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They have confirmed my suspicions that the channels are used with leather but not mbtex.
Those channels were used on mine with mbtex.
- Petri
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Since you're at it...
Can I ask if there is supposed to be a layer of thin foam under the soft top hatch leather?
Thanks!!
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Andy,
I just went to look and there is a second fold in that tucked away spot. If you would like some more detailed photos, send a PM with an email and I can take a couple of hi res shots.
I also looked at the soft top leather, and it does not feel like there is anything underneath the material.
Picture of 280 SL with this post
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Jonny, it looks superb. I envy you having a runner. I have really longed to be out driving this summer. We have had some fantastic blue sky days where I have looked at the car up on block in the garage and got quite angry the restoration has taken me so long.
An extra picture of that second fold would be awesome. Also a couple more of the folding of the leather on the rally hard concave curve under the dash on the extreme left and right near the A pillars would be great as well.
I am interested in your comment about the hatch leather having no foam under it. I am wondering if it is because it has disintegrated. It is one piece that certainly would get a lot of heat. I am a bit worried about converting my interior to black which is just going to accentuate premature deterioration. I am just about to do my hatch and all the research I have done indicates it should have a 6mm piece of foam from edge to edge. Mine certainly had some very deteriorated foam under it when I pulled it up. I almost certain it was original as well given quite a few tell tale signs I observed during it removal.
I am honestly quite stunned that your leather seems to be in such good shape still. The only other examples around the same ago of original leather I have ever seen have always been in sedans or coupes where there is a bit of shade. UV would be the biggest enemy of leather for sure and the nature of the pagoda, and any other convertible to that extent, means that if your intact set is quite the rarity.
I would love to see some general photos of the entire interior if you have time. Would be great to gauge how the entire set looks, especially things like the seats.
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Petri, are you sure you mbtex was original. I was looking at a confirmed original set a few weeks ago in the flesh and it seemed that the mbtex was injection moulded together around all three edges of the end piece. The whole end was covered perfectly with no wrinkles or folds. I kick myself now that I didn't take a photo. Is there any chance I could persuade you to put a photo up here to show what you have as well.
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Glove compartment got some 'lovin' today. Cleaned all the old glue off and inspected. I cant make up my mind if I should strip it right back to bare metal, bead blast and give it the epoxy treatment? A few spider rust spider veins starting to creep into the top of it but nothing too bad. Will sleep on that one.
In the mean time I got into the leather work for the inside of the glove box. Decomposed my old skin to see exactly how the stitching was done. Also took heaps of measurements and cut out the new pieces of leather to suit. Pulled the old sewing machine out of the closet again. Its seen more sunshine in the past two weeks than it has in the past 20 years!
It really did struggle with the first seam. So much so that I unpicked it and started again. This time I used the belt sander to reduce the thickness of the edges. This made the difference and the next attempt was like chalk and cheese. Much better more consistent lines. Once you start sewing if you have to stop for any reason then the chance of it going pear shape, with bulges and crooked lines, increases.
Not rocket science though and even a good old kiwi 'homer' has come up trumps if I dont say so myself. Quite chuffed! Certainly saved me a bit more money.
Tomorrow I will glue it all up. I think I can straighten up the majority of the slightly wonky edges when its being glued down by stretching the leather. Will post some close ups when its finished.
Now just have to crack that dash!
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I tried to do the folds as they were. I believe that the vinyl I replaced was still original because it had matching numbers hand written on the back side.
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Hey Petri,
That one really helps as well. I can see the very edge of the rear fold as well. Has given me the confidence I need to go ahead with mine now. Will probably tackle it in a couple of days when the glove compartment is finished. Thanks for your photos guys really appreciate it. They have all been a big help to me.
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Andy, requested photos attached. Kind of difficult to get a good shot of the edge of the glove box door.
The only thing I have done to the interior is to get new pads for the seats. As you might suspect, there is some sun fading, most noticeable at the top of the door panels, and the seat bottoms. When the seats were redone, we switched the backs but could not do that for the bottoms as they are contoured and only fit one way.
I supposed that the padding could be gone, but it just does not feel like there is anything under the leather for the soft top case.
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Thanks Jonny, Can clearly see the folds in your glove compartment bolster as well. Done deal! Love the red interior!
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Decided not to be lazy and strip the glove compartment back to bare steel and repaint. As always when I stripped the factory paint off, and there wasn't much of it at all, the rust was much worse than could be seen on the surface. Never ceases to surprise me how far and to what extend rust tracks under paint.
The bulk of the rust was along the top surface of the box. I guess there has been leaks that have dripped down or simply condensation from water evaporating off the floor pans. The lower surface was perfect. Inside the compartment on the horizontal shelf lots of surface rust was present. Am guessing but this is probably previous owners putting wet rags in here or maybe leaking liquid containers? In any event I am glad to be dealing with it in a half decent manner.
I have to wait until tomorrow to get some time in the bead blaster but have been buying up all the paint supplies I need. Amazing how many rubber glove, mixing pots, stirring rod and rags I have been through. They just seem to vanish.
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Thanks to all the help and advice in here I finally got to finish off my glove compartment door this afternoon. It took a couple of hours to get it half decent. Still need to tidy the ends once the glue has all dried. After all the worry the ends were not that challenging. Those recesses really did there job and soaked up quite a bit of slack leather. In fact I didn't even need to cut the leather but simply folded it over and jammed it in with a good dose of Ados F38.
Its probably not quite as tidy as the factory would have done it but its good enough. I have all the chrome garnish strips which sit on top of these bits off at the chrome shop at the moment. I am very nervous as they are very very hard to get pieces in RHD and the chrome guys have had them for three weeks now. If they lost them I would be gutted.
Cant wait to fit it all up!
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Lesson Learnt!
Got into the blaster today and cleaned up the glove box back to fresh metal. Gave it a liberal dose of metal ready and then blew a nice thick coat of epoxy all over it. Drove to the painters and got some more paint matched up to the green gray color of the paint that I took off yesterday. Should come up nicely.
Then decided to take the plunge and paint the final base and clear coat on the last of the dash panels. These are critical as they are right in the driver and passengers direct line of sight. I spent ages last week prepping the pieces and gradually took them all the way back with 2000 grit paper till they were almost shining.
After my car came back from the paint booth I lost my nice clean tiled garage floor to do this sort of painting. All the small bits and pieces were painted on boxes a foot off the floor. I was cleaning the garage and wetting the floor to keep the dust down. Also was closing the garage door to mitigate the wind coming up and blowing crap all over the job. It really only super critical while you actually have the gun in your hand as dust that falls on the job gets 'locked in'. Whilst dust that falls after you have finished tends to sit on top and you have a reasonable job of polishing out the imperfections latter.
Anyway I am now forced to paint in my second garage which has exposed beams and is extremely grubby in comparison. The day here was perfect for painting. No wind and nice blue skys. Decided to take the risk of these last parts. Turned the gun pressure down as far as I could to reduce the amount of air moving around the room so the dust wouldn't be kicked up. It was such a nice still day I had the garage doors up to try and get and get a bit more light in and ventilate the horrible 2k fumes.
Laid the base coat down perfectly. Silver, or most any metalic paint, is hard to paint. You have to apply it very evenly so all the flakes sit the same way or you end up with a striped effect. It looks horrible. Anyway I put down several very light even coats to avoid this and was really pleased.
Then went to blow the clear coat using the same technique. I put down about three coats when a huge freak gust of wind swept through the garage. Nothing too major but enough to send dust down from the rafters. Hundreds of small dots all through the clear.
The 'radio' panel was recoverable as its so flat. Just wait till the clear has hardened and knock it back to the primer with a block and start again. The glove compartment door is a different proposition with heaps of recesses, bumps and curves. It took a long time to prep this part properly and I knew that the only way to get it right again was to start from scratch. Out came the paint stripper and back to bare metal it went. Even stripping this panel took an hour. If I had tried to sand it back evenly I estimate I would be there for at least three times that amount. I would all be finger tip stuff so I am sure I have done the correct thing.
So back to the paint booth for the final coat. Will have to talk nicely to the painter and see if he will let me use his gear again. Just not worth risking given the amount of effort getting it to that stage.
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Have moved on tonight to the soft top hatch. I have been reviewing all my photos and coming up with a plan. This one could be quite tricky but hopefully not as hard as the dash (which I am still avoiding).
I would love to know for sure if foam padding featured under the leather from the factory. There are a couple of posts in here about it but none seem to have a definitive answer. When I took mine off it had 8mm foam but this doesn't mean its original.
Another issue is the thin metal band that runs around the back of the hatch leather is about 1mm thick. Its thick enough that if foam isn't laid over it, it will show up as a ridge. When I took mine off it was like this. I am trying to find a photo that show it up but if yours has been done the same you will know what I am on about.
In any event it would be great to spark off a conversation here about how this is suppose to be. Any help and photos appreciated.
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Andy,
Here's my answer, there was a layer of foam padding under the leather/Tex from the factory.
The original foam has usually turned to dust by now, but the traces of foam I have found when restoring these cars left
me in no doubt about this issue. I can only vouch for 280SL, but I pretty sure all models had the foam.
I think you have explained well why the foam is needed.
Hans
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Thanks Hans,
I am almost certain I will run with foam at this point. I am interested in anyone who has applied the foam. Is it lapped over top of the metal band. The leather is stretched around the band and glued on the underside. So this would this would mean that the installation sequence is as follows:
1) cut leather to shape
2) glue leather to underside of metal band
3) install leather band onto the hatch with leather folded wrong side up toward the back of the car
4) cut and install foam on hatch up and over the band
5) pull the leather over the hatch and glue.
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The Irony
A couple of months ago when I was in the middle of my dilemma's with my door locks a really kind guy by the name of Garry Marks in Australia offered to send me a couple of 113 lock tumblers. I was very humbled by his offer and gratefully accepted.
After several weeks of waiting for the package to arrive I awkwardly asked Garry about the package. He was equally surprised that it hadn't arrived and we carefully set about confirming all the details of the address to ensure we hadn't cocked anything up. Nothing was amiss and we both agreed to put it down to a nasty case of post office MOA.
Garry then kindly sent me his last tumbler which did arrive quick pronto in a few days but was unfortunately not a match to the keys of my car. A 50/50 chance that didn't fall in my favor.
I subsequently found some solace in the warm doorhandles of a fintail 111.
Story over.... until this morning.
In the mail, upon my arrival home from work, I discovered an unassuming bubble-wrap package with some very tatty and well traveled Australian postal stamps. Immediately I knew what it was and had a quiet chuckle to myself. It was only a few weeks ago that Garry and I joked with each other that luck would have it that just after I solved my nasty little problem the lost parcel would turn up.
It bore some interesting new tattoos it had received during its travels including a postal stamp from Toronto. The first thing that sprung to mind was joking with Garry about the proficiency of the Australian postal workers. Normally I would do this as us Aussie and New Zealand folk have this competitive rivalry thing going on and an opportunity of a cheap shot like this never normally goes amiss in this type of situation. But as Garry has been so kind and gracious I wouldn't dream of doing that.
The irony of all of it is that my key slipped into both the barrels that Garry sent and either could have been used right back on day one.
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Being the perfect gentleman that I am :o and not wanting to tell Andy that the NZ Post Office has a fixation on Toronto, well anywhere but NZ actually, , no, I cannot say that. Andy, send me back my 2 original ones, one day i will work out how to key them the same as my boot and fit them instead of using three keys as I do now.
Murphys Law
Garry
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Hi Garry, will send them back to you asap. Get them in the post this week and you might see them by xmas! I would definitley re-key your boot. Trivial exercise compared to the door locks. Open the boot, undo two nuts and it out. A bit easier than pulling the whole door apart! If I can add anything else to your shipment that you might need sing out! Thank again for your help.
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Dash Chrome Returns
Got the chrome back today for the lower dash bolster. Four pieces that run the entire length of the dash. They were ok but pitted in a few places and also the ignition keys had been scratching the hell out of the piece directly under them. So off they went a few weeks ago. 180 dollars well spent as they look fantastic up against the new leather. I would have been dissapointed if I neglected this detail. Cant wait to put all this stuff up against the crisp silver paint work. Chrome, black and silver are a beautiful combination in my humble appointment.
Also blew the final top coat on the glove compartment so will working away at the leather as soon as the paint has cured. The contact adhesive I am using is a solvent based product so I am picking if the paint isn't fully cured I could create one big sloppy problem.
My aim of putting back one piece per day on the car has sort of gone out the window. I am hoping to rectify that in the next week. Still think my pace has been ok this week. A few cockups but all the same some reasonable progress.
We have a big tropical cyclone bearing down on us here in New Zealand this weekend with some pretty severe winds and rain so I am picking you might not see any posts for a few days.
Havn't mentioned it before but my seats are also off at a professional upholsterer. Really long story behind it but the outcome was that it just wasn't a sensible idea for me to attempt the repairs required to make the supplied seat covers to fit properly. Its costing me 1000 dollars NZ for two days labor to strip the seats, cut the new covers to fit and resew and then fit everything up again.
I offered to strip the seats for the trim guy to keep the cost down but he talked me into letting him do it so he could see all the visible line etc when the seats were in one piece. Sort of makes sense. While its all in parts I am going to refurb the recline mechanisms and probably re-chrome all the bits and pieces.
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It is amazing how much a difference those small details can make (and how much they can drive you crazy when they are not right!). I think you certainly have the right approach.
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Cheers Jonny, I just dont know how interesting these small details are to others. I have been guaging interest by how many views the thread has been getting. Whenever I go into to finer detail I watch the numbers tapering off. I get really caught up in them and at the time to me they are incredibly interesting. But when I stand back and size them up often I think it probably like paint drying to others. Just hope in years to come this blog is somehow useful to others who are going through the same journey. As they say 'everything is easy if you know how'.
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.../...Decided on my arrival to tackle the small dash tip pieces. This time I would thin the leather down to almost paper like proportions to get it to stretch. I started the job with the up-most confidence the result would be positive..../... after three hours of effort I now have two pieces of abused leather and a naked aluminum panel sitting on my desk. I tried every tactic know to man, heat, steam, slow pressure. I even let the dog chew on it for a good 20 minutes to see if tenderisation by mouth would get me a result. Nada. I officially suck at leather work specifically where forming around tight complex corners are concerned..../...
Andy, you certainly are productive and achieve fine results with your Pagoda interior in your garage.
I wrote earlier about thinning leather down, and it would be of interest to read some more about your experiences with doing this. I will supply some pics here of my original leather underdash panel, where the factory approach will be illustrated. Of course, they most likely had roller (rotary) cutters for their use.
I have found out that one area where this leather thinning is common practice is within book binding. See for instance http://www.ehow.com/how_8589396_handthin-leather.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_8589396_handthin-leather.html) or this well illustrated instruction: http://www.classicbells.com/verlane/skiving/skiving%20leather.pdf (http://www.classicbells.com/verlane/skiving/skiving%20leather.pdf). So perhaps we in our hobby can learn from bookbinding.
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Hans, I would love to see your photos. I am sure any record of what the factory did will be of huge benifit to all the members both current and future.
I have really just used a trial and error and more importantly a common sense approach to the leather. One thing I was determined not to do was thin out the leather where it wasn't required. I paid so much for the leather I just couldn't stomach tipping half of it down the drain! Also after thinning out some of the leather I can categorically say that the process would reduce the durability of the material which is obvioulsy less than desirable.
With these two rules I just went about identifying the bits that needed thinning. Sometimes this unfortunetly occured after I had glued the leather on. Example the leather on the top of the windscreen. Didn't realise it was too thick until I fitted up the chrome trim which tightly hooks over it.
The only two areas I think you really need to do it, from my experience so far, are the windscreen top and the dash. I am only half way through so this list may increase.
If you take your time on any of the other bits you will be ok. Even my horn button was done without thinning which I have heard others suggest has to be done.
When I picked up my chrome plating yesterday I had a bit of a sick feeling after realising that these had a very fine lip which the underdash pads hook into. I wondered all the way home if I was going to be pulling all the leather off and starting again. But when I got home I found that the leather was an absolutle perfect snug fit into these lips. I reviewed my photos and discovered that the old mbtex was actually undersized and had a few gaps.
In summary I wouldn't get to caught up with thinning. I am however very interested to see how the craftsmen and Mercedes did it in the day.
I also think that the reason it may have been done was to speed up production not necessarily because it had to be done. Simply just made it quicker to fit and therefore increased profit margins. This could have led to and inferior product and premature failure. I think I have seen and heard this a few times on areas where thinning has taken place. I certainly dont want to copy a technique not understanding the motivation if it can be done in a better and more durable way.
I know that the assertion that perhaps Mercedes took some short cuts might be absolute blasphemey to you guys but at the end of the day they were in business to turn a profit and along the line must have taken some shortcuts to help that cause.
Food for thought. Interested on what you think.
In regards the physical activity of thinning the leather I have been using a belt sander. Absolutley perfect for just doing the target areas you want to concentrate on. Its not diffiuclt to hold the leather with one hand upstream of the sander and let rip with the other. Even small pieces can be done like this. The only caviet is to make sure your doing it on a perfectly smooth surface as any imperfections or high points will cause irregularities in the thickness. At the end of the day you want to accuratley control the thickness so this is a very bad thing.
Before I was thinning I was also using a crayon to mark the area. You can easily get lost and go off on different tangents.
I think commercially Mercedes would have thinned the entire piece of leather through a thicknesser machine before they even started. I would be interested in seeing your photos. It would be great to find an original piece of dash board leather and take a few measurements to confirm.
I was intially using a digial micro to get a feel for the thickness but after a while you get a feel for it. As your saning away you sort of also got through a few different layers until you get right down the backing of the skin. I recommend that before you start you take a scrap piece and take it all the way down to get a feel for it. I completly stuffed my first couple of 'good' pieces by not understanding how the material was going to behave when it got really thin.
Another thing to look out for is when it gets really thin its much easier for the belt sander to grab it and pull it into its wheel. If this happens when its paper thin say goodbye to the entire piece. You will be starting again. This also happened to me.
I didn't end up loosing too much leather to these types of blunders but did come the realization that its better not to take the risk if you dont need to.
Hans, hope this answers a few of your questions about my 'experiences' with leather. Its hard sometimes to expose your cockups but if you guys get some benifit I dont mind you all having a good laugh :'(
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After I spent a couple of hours securing our kids trampoline and all the other loose stuff in preparation for the big blow tonight I still got a bit of time for the car. Didn't want to rush things but I did work quite quickly to get the leather glued up to the glove compartment. Quite a tricky shape with all the internal angled surfaces.
Quite happy with the result. Is almost a pity this piece will exist in total black out conditions when finally back in the car.
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Awesome! Work, thread and dedication!
Brilliant
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Andy,
Your glove compartment looks fantastic and your mother would be proud of your sewing machine work. Must be a good feeling to have it installed.
Lin
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Cheers guys, again not exactly perfect but 'I did it myyyyyy way' :-\
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Very nice, Andy ! You really have the patience to go the extra mile and get the details right.
And what a pace - don't you ever sleep?
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Thanks Petri, really though the pace is embarrassing. If anything I sleep too much. Try not to do any resto work at night so the family life doesn't suffer. Usually out of the garage by 6pm at the latest. At the moment I finish work at 3pm so have a bit of time with the kids and then 2 hours on the car. It quite limiting.
A pro interior guy would have the entire interior finished in a couple of weeks! My lack of substantial progress is a reflection of someone 'learning on the job'! To me the restoration is crawling at the moment. It already March and I am now 14 months in with probably another 6-8 to go. My initial estimate was 6 in total so to that extent I am a total failure.
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Stared stripping the two panels that cover the wheel wells. Quite a complex structure so I havn't been looking forward to this one. Was to wet to work outside so we borrowed the kitchen table. Got my son onto the job on pulling the edges of the outer skin. He did really well and lasted until is fingers got sore and slithered off to watch TV.
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Took an absolute eternity to clean these back to clean ali. I initially used petrol to soak into the foam. Much cheaper than solvent. Once all the foam is gone I revert to a combination of paint stripper and solvent.
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Finally stitched up the tabs ready for installation. 6 hours of work to this point.. Am quite exhausted so am going to leave the rest for another day. Have had a huge tree come down in the cyclone so have my day already booked up on non car stuff
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After the big clean up I spent the afternoon working on the thin metal stay that hold the back edge of the leather/mbtex on the soft top hatch. Same story as usual. Lots of glue to get rid of.
It was a bit rusty so I decided to paint it. Water can get down behind the leather under this stay in then soak the foam. I have seen a few hatches where the foam appears to have disintegrated down the back edge. I am picking this is why.
May as well protect it the best I can. I think it was just gold pacifated at the factory.
As soon as this has dried will blow a very thin coat of satin black over it so the tabs which are pushed through the hatch dont look out of place when the hatch is open and in the air.
As soon as I have done this I will be into installing the leather.
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Have been trawling through the forum to see if anyone had posted detailed info on how to redo the foam on the soft top hatch. Search has proved unfruitful so far. I really dont want to get this one wrong so thought I would throw a photo in to show how I intend to do things. If any of you guys have any thoughts I would appreciate them. It would be wonderful if one of us was an experienced upholsterer. There is so much tricky hand applied upholstery in these little beauties that as a group we would benefit greatly with this type of advice and guidance. My experience tells me thus far that most of its achievable with patience and the right advice!
Anyway I think I had previously talked about trying to avoid a ridge line showing through the leather of where the leather meets the steel band its glued to. The only way I can think off is to overlap the foam but this would mean installing the leather on the metal band, then installing the band on the hatch and then overlay and glue the foam. This would mean that if you ever have to take off the band it would stuff the foam but I guess if its installed properly this is going to be a very rare occurrence.
Another worry is the two 45 degree corners the leather has to stretch around. Am interested in anyone experience with these. Am picking they are tricky. I have seen a few hatch covers where they have sewed these up in two parts.
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Andy,
What foam?
I just stripped the boot lid leather off my hatch in january. It was all original from the factory, and the leather was glued directly to the painted aluminum hatch. There was lots of glue that a bead blaster was necessary to remove, but I am unaware that MB put any foam layer in there. If necessary, could someone let me know, as I am a few weeks from putting my new leather on.
Thanks,
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Andy, My early "63 230SL has no foam under the leather on the hatch. It appears to be original from the factory.
Regards, Paul
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Andy, my '69 has no foam under the Tex. I am not the original owner, so I can't guarantee that it is original, but the rest of the interior is.
I can see the indentation of the fastening steel, but after 45 years that is to be expected.
Maybe one of the original owners on here can chime in?
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Hi Hans, I would love to see your photos. I am sure any record of what the factory did will be of huge benifit to all the members both current and future
As I wrote in reply 636, here are some pictures of the leftmost underdash panel, Bambus leather factory fitted, as seen in my LHD 280 SL.
The dark brown stains are from liberal application of glue, I take it they had brushes in the M-B factory upholstery shop to apply this stuff when fitting the leather.
This panel part is aluminium sheet metal, with polyurethane foam moulded onto it, then covered in leather.
Crayon marking is last part of the Production No (this Number is documented on the cardboard data card for the vehicle)
/Hans in Sweden
.
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Thanks for the reply guys. I am not saying anyone is wrong but I just cant see why you wouldn't put foam here. Reasons being
1) If you glue leather over the lip of the metal band you will see it I guarantee that. Its around a 1mm step up by the time its installed.
2) The foam will lift the leather up to the same level as the recess its sits in giving a nice flush fiinish with the rear of the hatch. Otherwise it will sit low.
3) Its an absolute **** to glue leather onto large surfaces without seeing undulations. Even if you apply the glue unevenly it can show through. Especially true on large surfaces.
All the professional advice I have had to date has told me that you get a much better result with foam under leather no matter what the situation. I have found this true so far. It far more forgiving to get a good job if you don't have to fight glue all the way. With the foam you get multiple chance to get it right and can pull and manipulate the leather until your happy and then secure around the back of the job with glue. The even texture of the foam gives a perfect finish.
The only reason I can see that you wouldn't use it is if it disintegrated easily as it is subject to too much heat. If this was the case they wouldn't have done the dash with foam either.
I have studied quite a few factory photos over the past couple of days looking for clues. I couldn't see any indication of the band showing through. Also looked at the motoring investments site. These guys seem to know what they are doing and without a doubt they are using foam.
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... When I took mine off it had 8mm foam but this doesn't mean its original ......
The lid on the 230SL had a thin deteriorated (crumbling) layer of foam between the MBtex and the painted metal. It may have been about 3mm thick but certainly not 8mm. I am not absolutely sure that the foam layer was glued to the painted metal and not the vinyl, however, since I could scrape the remnants of the metal with a plastic spatula I decided to glue the new foam to the metal and i did not overlap it with the metal band but butted to it. Unfortunately I did not take photos. My 280SL already had a complete color change so I did not pay much attention and just glued the new leather on to the lid the same way. The new foam was self-sticking and 1/8" thick (from Grainger: http://www.grainger.com/product/Foam-Sheet-5GDK8?searchQuery=5GDK8).
Whether to overlap or not depends also on the thickness of the leather. Of course, it if is very thin then the metal band would show, but a compressed - from stretching the leather over it - thin foam layer is about even with the raised metal band.
Also I did not glue the layer to the foam on the surface only on the underside and the lower edge in the corners. I had a few wrinkles because I did not want to stretch the leather too much to loose the grain, however, those could be removed heating the leather with a hair dryer. Once the car sits in full sunshine the effect will be the same.
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Alfred, thanks for posting those pics. It looks as if you have done a great job with it. I am a bit terrified of that 45 corner! I have been on the phone this afternoon to a leather smith who has given me some good advice. He offered to do it for me but I really want to give it a go. Will probably start in the next couple of days.
I also talked to him about my dash problems and I am considering farming this off to him. Its so critical and my gut feeling here is to put my pride aside and get an expert in. At the end of the day being Jack of all trades but master of none may not be the best approach to something this rare and valuable. I think I would be doing myself, and the car an injustice to cock up something so prominent.
Might just take a deep breath and work on the car radio problem.
Will sleep on it.
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Picked up all the bits a pieces from the seat frame from the upholsterer today, will go to work on all the chrome bits and pieces. A few need minor panel beating before the chrome process.
Also really want to work on the recline handles. One has the threaded rod snapped off that screw up to the plastic knob. Quite a fine metal rod which may be difficult to weld a new threading rod too. Might seek professional help on this one as well to ensure I dont screw up the entire unit. Has the potential to go wrong. Anyone else ever repaired this. I figure being so delicate to begin with that its prone to breaking.
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Hi Andy, it mmight be possible to cut the damaged thead off square where it goes into the lever, then set the lever up in a drill press and carefully drill down the tapping size for the Metric fine thread say 12mm, then tap out. Get a long threaded bolt and screw into the lever with loctite then cut off so the protruding thread macthes what you have now?
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While I was out talking to the trim guy I decided to take along my upper dash parts for him to look at. Also took out several bits I had completed for him to QA.
He took one look at my dash panel and the bedraggled pieces of leather I had been trying to fit and had a good chuckle. Not because I had made a total hash out of it but because I was missing one important piece of knowledge about the leather. It stretches about 3 times further in one direction than the other. Just the way the leathers grain runs. I had all the grain running along the length of the dash rather than across which would have made that hard to form piece 3 times easier. You have to be mindful of this when cutting the leather.
I felt like a moron! Again!
Really nice guy though. He spent a full hour with me looking at my finished pieces, which he said were fine.
Also picked up in our discussion that I had used the wrong glue and the wrong foam. Minute by minute I realized that if I wanted a professional job I should have ever never attempted this, without help/advice, to begin with.
The glue on the dash has to be rated at 180 degrees or higher and the use of open cell foam far less than ideal as it collapses with heat and is difficult to apply correctly. He has recommended closed cell 4mm foam which after application can be sanded and contoured to suit.
By the end of the conversation he had was trying to convince me to have another crack myself but after he quoted me 100 dollars for him to do it the decision became a no brainier.
We went on to have a look at the progress on my seats. They are looking really good to me but he was unhappy with some pretty minor irregularities that I wouldn't have even spotted. A couple of the pads are going to get stripped back down and 'tweaked' until every crease and lump has been removed. I did ask if this was all for the same price and to my approval he confirmed. A pleasure to deal with a tradesman that actually takes pride in what goes out the door. He was also working on a drop dead gorgeous type 37 Bugatti at the same time as mine which he was half way through. Everything was being fabricated from scratch and the work he had done on that was gorgeous. So I think I am in very safe hands. Quite nice going home and not having to worry about it.
Another piece of good news as well, I took my amp to a qualified audio technician who fixed the unit in less than an hour. Cost me 50 dollars. The damage was one component which cost about 2 dollars. The rest was labor which is fair enough. He was honest enough to tell me he just identified it and replaced and the thing 'just came right'. Was the approach I was going to take but I figure he would have got to the solution far faster than I would have. He also has identified under magnification that four of the capacitors are showing signs of leaking. He offered to replace them for another 80 dollars. I figure that even at 130 total I am onto a winner.
Its been a good Pagoda day.
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Sounds like you found a couple of good tradesmen there.
Others have fixed broken seat levers in a couple of ways discussed here http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19957.0
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Cheers Dave, I checked that thread out and I think I will try with welding a new piece of rod on. If I have to rechrome so be it. I have my mate Rodger coming over at some stage and will get him to look at it from an engineering point of view. Just want to make sure nothing snaps again and the repair is at least as strong as the original.
Today I picked up my radio from the repair guy. Brilliant. Two days and the issue is sorted. He replaced all the capacitors and the burnt out resistor. He claims that the replacement capacitors in particular made a huge difference to the sound quality. Not that a mono amp driving a tiny speaker in an open air convertible will ever be quite 'hifi' or heard clearly over the roar of all the fresh air coursing through the interior. But I will take it none the less. Its a win in my books.
Next problem... where to mount the amp. I though I might get away with right behind the radio head unit but not a chance in hell. The window wiper cross bar put an abrupt stop to that plan.
A few weeks ago Jack from Tazzy sent me over a few pics of his amp. His car is ex USA and is lhd so not directly comparable but none the less an excellent start point. Its tucked up between the window wiper motor bucket and the heater on the right hand side of the car by the looks (see his photo attached). I looked at the equivalent location on my car and there just isn't the space and also the space is used to channel a number of the cables through the firewall into the engine bay.
Damn it these RHD vehicles are a pain in the proverbial!
Another issue is the connecting umbilical cord between the head unit and the amp is to short for this location so if I want to consider it I will need an extension. The speaker cable is no worries but the din type setup for the small signal and power is a different story all together. I could cut it and extend each individual wire but would end up with a Frankenstein. It would be good if becker made an extension cable for this purpose.
If anyone has any knowledge here about the factory setup it would be great to know about it as well.
Tomorrow night I have a date with a paint booth!
Cheers
Andy
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The Becker Mexico came with the ability to run a tape player through an auxiliary port on the rear of the unit. This has been exploited to run modern mp3 and other audio sources in its place. There are a number of aftermarket adapters from either 6 or 7 pin din plugs to modern mini 3.5mm stereo plug than can just plug into your phone or ipod.
Unfortunately it appears that my unit is also odd ball in this respect having what looks like a 5pin din plug. Anyone had any experience with these early plugs and know where to source the correct plugs.
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Andy,
check this. It's easy to make a cable yourself.
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Ipod
Peter
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My Mexico TR has brackets holding the amp to the radio, so I thought it would fit in this configuration.
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Dave, thats exactly the same configuration as mine so I am 98 percent certain that you havn't got a glimmer of hope of fitting that up if your dash configuration is anything like mine. Take a look at the picture of Jacks setup, which is what I believe factory. They have installed it away from the head unit due to lack of space directly behind the dash. I will take some pics tomorrow to highlight the problem. Your lead at least looks much longer than mine so you can probably snake it down to an alternative location.
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Andy,
I had the same problem with my Europa II power amp. Too much stuff on the firewall. The location specified in the MB schematic was unavailable on mine (AC?). In the end, we put a large velcro strip on the bracket, and just mounted it flat behind the glovebox. It is out of the way of the wiper arms, easy to get to, and the velcro makes it quiet as a mouse. I shouldn't say that, as I've removed mouse "mummies" from the car recently.
If you need more specifics, let me know. The cables should be all long enough. Make sure you use the appropriate MB speaker connectors.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Andy,
here is the pic which is on this site for the amp location. This didn't work for my 280SL.
Mike
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Sorry, my last post was the 666th reply to this topic. Need it to be 667. Spooky.
Mike
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Andy,
what is the exact model number of your Becker Mexico? There should be a label on the left side with the information.
It is not difficult to make an extension cable to the amplifier but it would be good to have the wiring plan for your particular model.
Making an iPod/MP3 cable for your 5-pin DIN is easy also but also think about the location of the 3.5mm socket at the end of the cable into which you'll plug the MP3 player.
The brackets for the amplifier came in two sizes depending on the amp. How big is yours?
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My unit is an early Becker Mexico TR. It was set up in exactly the same configuration as DaveB picture below so I believe it was probably out of a finny or even an early 108. The amp above head unit setup just wouldn't work. The umbilical cord is set up for this setup and is really short as well so unless I somehow manage to pull off a Houdini I will be either Frankienstiening the cable or looking to an extention cable of some sort.
I will take some pictures when I get home from work tonight.
This radio is so frustrating. I just really want to get the dash back together quickly and move on! I lay in bed last night on the net trying to source an antenna for it. Still cant decide on two thing: 1) Electric or manual. 2) Period or modern.
I do really like the idea of electric as the radio wont be getting used that often and it will be a big fat hastle to have to raise an lower it for 'demonstration' purposes.
I have found a couple of decent period manual ones for around the 150US mark. Still havn't found a period electric unit. I insist on Hirschmann regardles on if its either modern or period. The modern Hirschmann does appear to be quite cheap and nasty but would still take my chances. Anyone know where I can get a period electric?
What do you guys think?
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Andy,
I a have the same TR in my 230SL. Attached is the pin numbering for the amp cable. You should be able to buy DIN connectors and a shielded 8-conductor cable in NZ to make one, if not let me know I'll fabricate one for you.
Forget about a "period correct" Hirschmann antenna, because (a) they are are very rare and if you find one expect to pay US $700 and more! (b) they are extremely heavy and prone to rusting because of bad drainage at the bottom where the motor is. Buy an AUTA-2040, the only obvious difference is the half-globe on top because it does not come with a fully chromed dome but it can be tilted to be parallel to the windshield post.
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Thanks Alfred. That was exactly the antenna I was looking at on ebay. They are so cheap, 60-80US, I assumed they must be low quality and have steered away. Also didn't know if it would fit up into the cavity. Good to know that you have used it and are happy with its asthetic and performace. I will go an order one today!
I think half the effort in these restorations is actually all the labored thinking. Its so nice to occassionaly be steered in the right direction. Things happen much quicker.
Update Taken Alreds advice and gone with a AUTA-2040. Next issue there doesn't seem to be a 12v takeoff from either the amp or the head unit to control the up/down position of the antenna. Probably will tap into one of the control cables in the ambilical when I lengthen it.
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Andy,
look at the AUTA-2040 instructions it shows a +12V red wire with a 5A fuse and another (white) +12V wire that needs to be switched on/off.
The ignition key on the 230SL does not have a position that allows radio operation while everything is else is shut off, thus you need to decide where to get the power for the radio.
If you never use the radio when the engine is off then then splice into the power wire for your radio. Otherwise run a new wire from position 30 on the light switch, it is always hot and the antenna will be always powered. I am not sure whether your radio has a switched tab/socket for the antenna, that is, it is turned on and off with the radio switch. If you had a power antenna before then you should have such a toggle switch on the radio - but if not you need to install one.
My 230SL is not here at the moment but in a few days I can take a look and let you know how I solved the trigger switch on my Becker TR.
Also didn't know if it would fit up into the cavity.
I know it fits into the cavity on the passenger site of a LHD car. Where was your antenna located before, left or right fender? Also do you have a an extra fuse box on the passenger side inner fender in the engine compartment as shown in the technical manual?
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Hi Alfred, thanks for all the information. Really appreciate it. I will try and digest all the information in the next couple of days and come up with a game plan. Tonight I am going to hit the hay. I have been preparing and painting the glove compartment door and the visible dash plate that the radio mounts up against all afternoon and this evening. Surprising that just those two small part have soaked up soooo much time. The door on its own would owe me close on 10-15 hours with all the repairs and running around. I had to drive 60k tonight just to get a decent environment to make sure the paint turned out. Didn't really even have time to inspect it tonight. Just threw the final coats on and hung it in the back of my 4x4 and came home. Will post some pics of how it turned out after work tomorrow. Have had three consecutive long days on the car now so might have a night off and enjoy a glass of wine or two tomorrow!
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Andy,
I am looking at my amp right now, and there is a plug right above the "rechts" speaker connection for the electric antenna. It is stamped with "+12V" just above and to the right. I think this solves your power problem, instead of splicing. Although mine is a Europa II Stereo. Although, yours may be different, as you would have found the stamping and figured it out already.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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.... Tonight I am going to hit the hay. ....
I hope you did not have to bale it too. :)
While you were sleeping I found the instructions for the antenna up/down trigger switch. You need to find one thin pin connector for the jack (number 7 e, in the attached picture) and exchange it with the spade connector on the white wire of the AUTA-2040.
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Thanks Mike and Alfred. Sounds as if the problem is now sorted!!! I will meter out the pins tonight to confirm and let you guys know my findings. The antenna has now been shipped so should be with me in the next 5 days or so. Just got to extend the ambilical now. I am going to have one last fit up with the painted readio plate tonight and see if I cannot somehow shoe horn the amp under the radio. It definitley wont go above it.
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Start the reassembly of the glove compartment this afternoon. Everything went well. All the chrome pretty good so just a good clean and refit. When I got the car the light never worked and the wires were snipped off and tucked back into the door shell. I have no idea where they attach to the main loom so would appreciate some guidance on this. I refurbed the light fitting and soldered two new wires onto it that are long enough to track a fair distance behind the dash.
Second problem I hit was that the new spring arm kit that buds Benz provided doesn't appear to fit. One of the arms should have an opening that is wider than the other but the ones I have are both the same. The arms fit the mating post on the glove compartment but not the door if that makes sense. Take a look at the photo.
After two 15 hour days I am just to shattered to get the files out and modify it so its back in its packaging for the time being until I have had some decent sleep. If any of you have encountered this one I would be interested to here how you solved it. Am picking 10 minutes with a half round fine file will sort it.
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Have any of you guys who have mounted up a becker made up your own rear mounting bracket. The factory solution is shown in the photo below. It appears to snap onto the tab that is welded to the firewall directly behind the radio.
If anyone has one it would be great to get some dimensions off it. Quite hard to measure up with limited space.
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Hi Andy,
Firstly the glove box light wire should go to a terminal strip on the side of the heater box, this
is connected to the glove box door switch (top left of door) and provides power and the other is ground.
Secondly the radio bracket, I made a simple 'L' shape out of 1/2" steel. The length was determined
by putting a rule through the radio opening to the back of the mounting shelf, subtract the radio depth
(and a little more) and voila. As for height I assumed the top of the radio was the same height as the shelf
and drilled the mounting hole in the bracket accordingly, works fine.
Hope this helps
Larry
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Just like to add that I wrapped some insulation tape around the end of the bracket
which sits on the shelf so as to damp any tendency to rattle.
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Andy,
that spring steel is not cheap and you may end up at the same price :
http://www.koenigs-klassik-radios.de/ersatzteile/blaupunkt/radiohalter-fuer-mercedes-pagode-h11/a-36109/
http://www.authenticclassics.com/Radio-Mounting-Bracket-for-230SL-250SL-280SL-p/auth-003670.htm
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Reduce, reuse, recycle.....
When I made my bracket for the radio, for the spring steel I used a section of metal banding that I found cruising the back alleys looking for scrap steel. I found some spring steel behind a chemical place that was actually the banding that they use to secure stacked drums of chemicals to pallets. (Then I took 2 the pallets home and used the 4X4 sections by 10' long to make a pergola for my grapes. The wood was a fine grain stuff that looks sort of like oak. I used the rest of the wood from the pallets as firewood for camping.)
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Guys thanks for all that info. I think I will have a crack at making something. I cant get one in NZ and to get one out of the US will cost more than 60 dollars with the shipping. It absolutely crazy but for some obscure reason shipping out of the states costs a bomb. I get stuff shipped from china all the time. Mainly small items off aliexpress, and the shipping is peanuts. Order a small bracket from the states and hey presto 41US. This part of the restoration should be where you get really careful. All the small purchases end up on one huge one! I would love an original Becker bracket and will continue to look out for one at a reasonable price. Also need to source a bracket for the amplifier.
Thanks for the heads up on the wiring for the light. That makes sense. I did find two random wires screwed up to the chocolate block on the side of the heater. Remember being confused when I took it apart a year ago. Still a way fitting all this up as I need to sort out the radio and all its wiring. I did find an original Mercedes radio fuse box yesterday in my pile of W108 stuff. Looks to be identical to the 113 version. Will clean it up and mount in the engine bay.
I have been thinking about tapping into the fuse box for power for the radio. Can use the fused side of things so I have double protection on the radio circuit. Easy to get to and I dont have to cut anything. Can just use a crimp fix spade terminal.
Am going around to my fathers house today to help him out so wont be doing much today. Its a bit of a sad day. He has been active in the Mercedes car club for more than 30 years now and has always had a mercedes or two in the garage. He picked his love for them up from his father, my grandfather, who purchased a black W108 up from the factory in Germany in 1967. My fathers health has deteriorated to such an extent in recent years that even driving them is becoming physically difficult. He has a 280sl which doesn't make things easier. Finally he has come to the realization that 'its not working' and has asked me to come around and help him sell up.
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Would be happy to post dimensions of the bracket, will make up a sketch and post by tomorrow
Posted Rough Sketch, Note that the Spring is quite strong and can barely be moved with finger pressure.
George
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Andy,
I can't help your technical issues ... but just wanted to say that it is sad about your dad ... and I feel for him and you. However, I would think it brings him great pleasure to see his son enjoying his passion for these cars and working on them so diligently ... and with so much care for correctness.
best
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Thanks Kampala and George. Appreciate your help and sentiment.
Today I have been concentrating on the radio again. Raided an engineering firms bin down the road looking for spring steel. Found some perfect 38mm wide strapping. Then cut down some L section angle iron which started its life as shelf framing. Was perfect as it already had long adjustment slots cut in it. Carefully bent up all the steel and secured with rivets just like the original. Probably not as tidy but it works perfectly. I cut and bent the steel to an even 80mm L shape. This gives you about 5mm wiggle room at the firewall. Cut it too long and you wont be able to fit up at all.
Then went on to bolt up the radio to the face plate. Had issues with not being able to get the backing clamps to tighten up with the plate. I needed to generate a bit more interference so cut some very thin strips of dense closed cell foam and glued it on. This worked a treat and stopped any potential vibration at the plate junction.
Mounted up the cig lighter after I tested it. Probably never use it but absolutely hate fitting up non functioning equipment. I have waited for a long time for this fit up and was really happy with the result. Think the becker is stunning. Work of art dont you think.
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Turn back the clock
Moved on to another issue which has nagged me for the last 6 months or so. The previous owner decided to replace the absolutely stunning matching clock with some nasty tacky BMW VDO unit. Looked appalling. First thing I noticed when I went for the test drive. Well that's apart from the horrendous 1980's 50 dollar tape deck.
As part of the 'up grade' they sliced apart the factory loom and connector block and soldered on some spade terminals.
Time to roll back the clock and get the loom back to close to what it was when it left the factory. I looted my stash of W108 looms and found a correct electrical block. It didn't come with the correct colored wires so I also chopped out another couple of sections to get what I wanted.
Soldered it all back together and now need to splice it back into the loom. Tomorrow.
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...... Also need to source a bracket for the amplifier. ...
Andy,
your L-shaped radio holder looks perfect, you should have no trouble fabricating the amp bracket also. You can only buy the shorter amp brackets but not the longer for the TR amp.
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10844.msg72111#msg72111
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10844.0;attach=2157;image)
The trick is to bend one side U-shaped to fit into a wide slot on the amp and the other side has a square hole for a tab (not visible in the pic).
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Hi Alfred,
I spent last night sighting up somewhere where I can mount the bracket. Have come up with a blank. I searched hi and low for existing fixing locations that could be used so I dont have to drill any further holes in the firewall. Nada.
I think I will use velcro and jam it up into the general area. A bit nasty but a reasonable compromise. Now all I have to do is lengthen the umbilical cord.
George, your bracket looks much more authentic than mine. Awesome job. Good that my measurement came up to within 5mm of yours. than has put my mind at ease. If mine is too long I can just grind off the 5mm
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Found the standard pin out spec for the 5pin Din plug I appear to have for my Aux in. The only question now is will the unit combine a left and right channel signal from pins 5 and 3 or is it only going to be using one of them in a pure mono configuration. I may have to crack the back of the unit to find out. Instead of a wired 3.5mm jack plug I intend to go high tech stealth and install a bluetooth adapter. Anyone done this before.
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Andy,
since the TR is a 'mono' it never had to deal with a 'stereo' input. If you want to feed a stereo signal from a MP3 player you have to do more than just combine the L+R signal into one (which may create havoc for your tuner transistor).
Here is one solution (that also avoids humming): http://www.antiqueradio.org/iPodAdaptor.htm.
What do you mean with Bluetooth adapter? Feeding the MP3 output signal into your radio at a certain frequency on the dial?
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Bluetooth to Stereo adapter. (http://www.conrad.nl/ce/nl/product/769950?WT.mc_id=gshop&gclid=CO_dmcSHqL0CFWjKtAodQl0AiA&WT.srch=1) or something similar... Disclaimer: I haven't tried it but this Belkin product might do the trick.
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Spent the day on a 'reccy mission' for all the bits and pieces I need to get my mexico up and running and installed.
After heaps of research last night I settled on a Belkin Bluetooth receiver which has a very good output stage suiting high end audio. Only catch is it runs off 5v so I also took the liberty of securing some 5v regulators.
All went really well other than a nasty little ground loop which I am still working on. Nothing major but just a little buzz that I will notice forever if I don't get rid of it now. Nothing that cant be overcome. Am going to pick up a DC to DC convertor tomorrow which will hopefully isolate the loop. If it doesn't work then I can always use the optical output to solve the issue. http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=MP3200&w=dc+to+dc+converter&form=KEYWORD Will let you know if this solves the problem.
Made a quick video off the progress if any of you are interested. When I get it all installed and all the problems ironed out I promise I will make a much more polished version and a better installation guide if anyone wants it. Please don't laugh at my pathetic production skill. Certainly no Peter Jackson!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzFanU3LRco
All the same I have been listening to all my favorite tunes blaring out of the little Mexico all afternoon. I think I have fallen in love again. Even though its just a little mono amp it has quite a warm quality about it. Feeding it the digital clean signal is a huge improvement over the audio quality of the tuning circuits. Really transforms the unit into something quite usable.
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Andy i just love what you are doing, and also taking the time to share it with us, You must have an understanding wife also.
If you dont receive an Oscar for this performance there is something very wrong,
Keep up the good work, ;)
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Hi Reggie,
The work yesterday would have only been a couple of hours had it not been for the ground loop problem. I then messesed around with filtering caps for another 4 to try and rectify it. At that point my wife was steering well clear as my frustration levels were running quite high.
We had a nice day all in all. Took the family to a vintage tractor day up the road where they had all sorts including heaps of classic cars and a old war bird planes doing flyover demos. Tiger moths, dehavaland Harvards etc. Beautiful for parents and kids alike. As you say gotta keep that family to car balance or all hell breaks loose.
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Chipped away at all the electrics. Extended the radio Umbilical and also the speaker cable. Finished off the loom including re-taping it with cloth I pulled off my W108 loom.
Couldn't resist and powered up the radio to see how it would sound and behave. Thrilled to bit. Sounds great in a very 1960's way. The windscreen act as a sort of sound shell and really changes the tone quite a bit from what it sounds like on the bench. Am so glad I went the extra mile with the refurb.
Can now forge ahead with the remainder of the interior. Hopefully I will have some quick wins and see some solid progress. I think I have finished quite a bit of the fiddly difficult stuff. Need to wait now for my latest shipment of bits and pieces. Waiting on the electric antenna and new rhd sun visors.
Next thing I have to think about is the wood. Mine is actually ok looking. The flash photography really makes it look bad. But still the same I think I will end up replacing it.
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Been working on the radio again this week. Am determined to get it right. Its been in and out of the car a couple of times now and is currently back on the bench and in the process of having a few different variations of isolating circuits hooked up to it to try and eliminate the last of the interference from the Bluetooth unit. Thanks to everyone in here who has helped out on this project. Really good advice and help.
I also forged ahead with the final dash refit. I got the two upper dash parts back from the trim guy. To be honest I was a bit disappointed. It looked as if they had been done in a hurry. I made mention of it to the trimmer. He was pretty good and fessed up that they had been busy. He unpeeled some of the more obvious areas where there were flaw and made an attempt to put it right.
When I got home I unpeeled all the edges and spent another couple of hours carefully trying to rectify the situation. It is better but still not 100%. Good enough to put back in though.
So I spent a good 3-4 hours cutting a gluing the final pieces of leather to the dash. Quite time consuming as the leather is wrapped around in some quite complex configurations. Just fiddly. In the end I templated it after wasting a few bit of leather.
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Andy,
That first photo is probably the most difficult area to get right and it looks like you have got it right. Over time the area under the curve tends to lift off and you will often see cars with it bubbled in that area usually through shrinkage of the leather.
Great job.
Garry
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It is better but still not 100%. Good enough to put back in though.
To me the corners look perfect.
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Star, far from perfect, but reasonably presentable. I think she is going to be a good 30 foot car. :P
Garry I think you are right about the shrinkage. I have tried to counter that effect though. When it came back I peeled up this entire area and carefully and repeatedly heated the leather in the curved area and let it cool. Hopefully this has 'pre shrunk' the leather.
I also didn't trust the glue the guy was using. Generic contact adhesive. Also when I pulled back up the leather I noticed that he had not sanded back the aluminum to give the glue a good key. Absolutely critical to keep leather under tension in place. Clean back all the glue and sanded with 80 grit. Applied the F38 in the curve as well as the rest of the leather I had pulled back up. The first place the glue will let go when its heated is also where its under tension so hopefully I have countered the problem from both of these fronts.
Fingers crossed.
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A Small Setback
Had the most fantastic day today up until about half an hour ago. A friend of mine picked me up at 7am in his lotus Elise and we traveled in convoy with a bunch of old 356 porches and Lancia's down to New Zealand's best American car show in a place called Whanagmata. Idyllic location set on one of NZ's best beach with just a mind blowing array of old tin to feast your eyes on. Thousands of American cars as far as the eyes can see. Pig in Mud. http://www.beachhop.co.nz/
Anyway got home at 3pm buzzing from the experience and thought I would just have a quiet afternoon on the 113. Decided to tweak the heater levers to get them coming out the slots cutting in the dash 'just a little bit better' than they were already set up. Dropped the 3 nuts holding the front plates, repositioned to get the levers sliding just a bit better. Started tightening up and then 'swaaackk' the central bolt sheared off.
Why does the dear lord above always seem to take it upon himself to torture me in this way. It always seems to be the case that when I am just about to finish something up something breaks and your back to the drawing board again. I think I dont do myself any favors by not being satisfied and having to constantly fiddle and pull things out to get it just so. Torturous!
I tried to fix it by mig welding another stud to it but as expected the metal is not weldable and dissapears like heated candy floss the instant you take the welder anywhere near it. Very porus cast components.
Anyway if you have a spare plate (see photo of my cockup) I would love to send you some money to make my current problem go away. Alternatively if anyone know of anyone else selling one of these I would be interested. Cant find any on ebay. The real frustration this end is that until I get this piece I cant put my dash back.
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That's another tough one Andy, more common than you would think a friend of mine
has a 280 with a chrome screw fitted right through this part. The head clearly visible
on the front. He hadn't even noticed it until I pointed it out :o
Good luck with finding a replacement.
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A Small Setback
I think I dont do myself any favors by not being satisfied and having to constantly fiddle and pull things out to get it just so. Torturous!
I'm a bit the same way and my father kept on telling me that sometimes, "better" can be the ennemy of "good". So I'm trying to compound myself within the "good enough" approach, given that constantly trying to improve on things may well end up into a much less satisfactory situation, a lot of wasted time and frustration.
As per your bolt, if it's steel, you could try to shape both broken ends in a way that they form a groove when put together. You could then weld in the groove and grind the weld, hoping that heat won't alter the color of the fascia side.
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Decided to move on from my problems yesterday and have a crack at the broken 4mm rod on the end of the seat mechanism. I stripped the assembly right apart as was almost certain I would be chroming again. To get any sort of strength in this very thin shaft I was going to have to try and use as much surface area over both the shaft and the new threaded rod. So I ground both to a point and used some old vice grips to hold everything nice and straight while I got the first few spots in. I was pleasantly surprised as the weld took beautifully on both pieces. Quite a contrast to the crap pot metal of the dash pieces the day before.
It took quite a bit of patience to dress the welds back to look like the original square shaft. Did my best. Not quite perfect but will do. There are a few small holes which I might go back and fill. Under close inspection Mercedes has only polished the front side of the shaft before chroming. The rear side which faces the seat is quite rough.
Also finished up my quarter panels. Quite happy with these. I ended up stripping all the open cell foam off and replaced with a 4mm closed cell foam. Its much more forgiving when you have to pull the leather off it. Closed cell foam just rips so you only really get one shot at it.
I did have another 'just gotta laugh' moment. After I had finished the quarter panels I started prepping for doing the door cards. Pulled out all the leather that came in the kit and discovered that it shipped with perfectly cut and sewn quarter panel leather. I spent so long sewing these all up and cutting to the correct dimensions. Just had to chuckle. Really topped off my weekend. I think all in all with all the stuffs ups in the past couple of days I am probably down two days labor.
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My good mate Rodger helped me out today fixing up my broken dash chrome. He has the most amazing home setup of beautiful old machinery. All of the same vintage as the old pagoda which made me all warm and fuzzy.
Took Rodger only half an hour of milling and tapping and the part was better than new. Its amazing to watch a true engineer in flight. Really glad I didn't try this myself.
We went for a slightly smaller 4mm stud with a higher thread pitch rate to maximize surface area and strength. I dont plan on tightening this sucker up too much in any event.
Thanks Rodger ;D
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Got my one part back on the car for the day. Easy target this time. The Hirschmann HIT AUTO 2050 automatic antenna turned up in the post from the states. I was expecting quite a crap quality unit as it only cost 80 dollars delivered. I was pleasantly surprised by the build quality. No substitute for the old metal case ones but ok for the money. I dare say if we come back in another 50 years its got no chance of still being functional.
Used it to test my radio unit out and test out the auto tuning which all seems to be running perfectly.
Set about installing it. All in all it was only a 30 minute job. Am really pleased with the result. Still look in keeping with the car. Just a pity they dont stamp the H on the tip anymore. Surely it wouldn't cost them significant money to do this and would set it aside from the competition. Without some form of branding it could be any cheap aftermarket unit for a cosmetic perspective.
Can wait to get my radio back in again.
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Radio back in. All under dash panels fitted up and looking fantastic. Moved on to the glove compartment and hit another issue.
This time its with the door spring kit supplied by Buds. First problem I documented a week ago was one end of the spanner type arm did not have a wide enough opening. Fixed that with the dremel. Then when I tried to fit everything up it was obvious it just was far to long.
Spent half an hour reading the tech manual in here about the spring and the first thing that hit me was the arm in the photos in here sits lower than the base of the box when the door is shut. Mine sits at about the same height.
Measured the arms and spring supplied by buds. All seems within reasonable tolerance. A few mm difference but not enough to make a huge difference. Then measured up the relative distances between the center or the arms, compared them with the photos and measurements in here, and the problem is obvious. Much shorter. More than 20mm. See pictures below. Note the inset images are screen shots from the tech section in here.
I am wondering if I have just encountered a little RHD difference... again.
The arm is on the other side of the car, on the opposite side of the glove box. Quite possible that the box is not as deep due to differences in the firewall. Anyone encountered this before and know the answer.
My only recourse is to shorten the spring and arms.
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Started tonight on the rear 'jump seat'. Took an hour or so to pry up hundreds of staples holding the cover on. The construction of the new cover is fairly simple. I only need 3 or 4 straight seams to be sewn and am confident I can do them myself. All the rest of the corners are simply folded. The only corners that are sewn are the ones which are seen.
The pads seem to be in good condition and have a thin 2mm wadding glued on to them. All in good condition and reasonably tidy so I think I will just reuse. I cant imagine the seat has had too much use since the last time it was covered. Probably in the 1980's
Choose some nice leather and cut using the old covers as templates. I am a bit gutted that I have so much leather over. Its 1000 dollars I could have poured into other areas. I dont know why Buds sold me so much given they are doing these refits all the time. Perhaps they thought my wastage would be 50%.
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Finished the dash up today. Good feeling. Only have the wood to sort and I think I will end up having to buy a new set. I cant find anyone in Auckland who is capable of putting back on the veneer. Aside from this what I have is really quite good condition. Frustrating.
Spent this morning cutting down the buds glove compartment spring kit. Had to take almost 20mm off the rods and shorten the free length of the spring about the same amount. With the reduction of length I immediately had an issue with the spring wanting to kink during the compression. I got around this with the trick from the tech section of a tube around the spring. Good trick whoever came up with that.
I confirmed that the wood can be bolted up with the glove compartment in place and made the decision to finish up. Am happy to have it behind me. Other than the wood I am happy with the results.
Also dropped off the next load to the chrome platers yesterday. All the bits on the seats. I got a huge surprise when I was told that it was 500 dollars. Quite small and fiddly. The seats are now worth more than my 3 piece leather lounge suite.
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Hi Andy,
great work, congratulations!
For the wood work see German Pagoda forum: http://www.pagodentreff.de/artikel/holzteileaufarbeiten.html .
...WRe
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Hi Wre,
My German is limited to a few pickup lines I learn't in my teens. If there is a good source of RHD wood on the site I would really appreciate some help with communicating with these guys. I believe all the aftermarket suppliers source from Germany. I would rather deal direct and save some money.
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Hi Andy,
if you read the experiences of restoring or renewing the dash wood you would decide to restore it. Main reason is accuracy of fit of a new one and the price.
I will send you the name of a Pagodentreff.de member who has done it and can help you.
...WRe
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Another source to restore dash wood and other things: http://www.beetle.homepage.t-online.de/holzteile_in_einer_pagode_ueberarbeiten.htm
...WRe
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Wre,
I went and looked at that last site you supplied. That level of workmanship is 100% above what I would ever be capable off. That guy has done a wonderful job and it look as if its a DIY. I translated the page using google Translate. The result was a bit bizarre but I got the general gist of things. Sounds as if he researched how to do it all off the internet and then went to work. I am almost certain that that guy must work in the industry, perhaps a cabinet maker by trade.
In any event I would love to save the original wood if I could. Its part of the original fabric of the car. Every part you take out and replace with an after market knock off means that bit by bit the car is further becoming less 'Mercedes'.
It does however take much more effort or money to get these little details correct and I often wonder if they would make an ounce of difference to a prospective buyer should I ever decide to sell. I think its more to do with getting it right. I would probably be the only person that ever noticed.
It probably sounds stupid but after working on the same car for so long I have think I have developed quite a deep seated attachment to it. Almost one of the family.
With all this said I have a confession to make. I have purchased some aftermarket sun visors. They are only a day or two from arriving now and I am really terrified that they will be awful. They worked out at half the cost of the OEM Mercedes ones but I am rapidly running out of money so had to make the call. The original ones were about 1200 where these ones worked out at about 650 including shipping. Even if they are a total embarrassment I will do a write up on them.
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Also been looking at new feet for my little princess this week... actually I have been on the lookout for the past 12 months. I had really set my heart on white walls. I have given up on the wide band American style as they are soooo expensive in NZ.
Even the thin band 10mm European style are hard to get. Getting them in 195/75/R14 is proving a real challenge. I do however have a set of 205/75/14 available to me now and need to make a decision quickly in order to secure them. Would appreciate everyone's feedback on these.
I have run the calcs and other the width I am happy to take the rest of the differences. Even with this measurement its only 20mm wider that the original 185. If 20mm starts to cause interference issues then I will steer well clear. I would imagine that this would only happen on full lock in the front and can understand how this might touch the exhaust on the rear. The exhaust can however be tweaked to fix this. More the front end I am worried about.
In terms of the speedo the worst outcome is probably 1.4km measured speed difference at 100km/h. So what. Parallax error on the drivers part is probably more significant.
The only consideration is rubbing in my mind. Unless otherwise convinced I don't know if I believe the stories about significant damage to steering and suspension componentry due to excessive loading. We are only talking about a couple of percent variation on all of the dimensions.
I have been using the following site to quickly compare and contrast the different sizes relative to what shipped on the car back in 64.
http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/tirecalc.php?tires=185-80r14-195-75r14
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Cut the leather for the jump seat down to size this afternoon and stitched the 3 edges that can be seen. The rest were all folded when I took the covers off so I am going to copy.
Fitted the jump set up with the new covers just draped over to ensure that I am going to cover everything that needs to be covered. I cant finish off until I get the right staples for my gun. The staples that I pulled out were all made of copper. Must have used this to mitigate rust issues. I am going to source some stainless staples in their place.
Thats next weeks job.
Another nice little surprise was waiting on the front door step when I got home. The postman had been and delivered my sun visors. I made quick work of mounting them up.
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Sun visors have minor differences from the originals. Overall I was impressed. The faults are as follows:
1) Chrome done poorly with pitting and imperfections. I may pull them apart and get them rechromed.
2) The mirror is a different shape and is noticeably smaller than the OEM.
3) The plastic moulding around the mirror has a different pattern than the original
4) The shape is slightly different.
5) The are very stiff to turn. Will have to be very careful not to crease them.
6) Missing Chrome dome covering one of the swivel screws (see photos).
They ended up owing me around 900 dollars delivered. I didn't count on the import tax. I could have had originals for 1200. The replicas did come with the plastic clips as well which saved me another 80USD.
They are in now and I am happy. Another 'expensive' problem in my rear vision mirror.
Tires, ash tray, new wood, engine, gearbox and I am home and hose.
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Sun visors.../... 5) The are very stiff to turn. Will have to be very careful not to crease them
On the factory issue sun visor, the clamp down force is adjusted via the screw, visible in the corner of the visor.
/hans in Sweden
.
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Hi Hans,
I actaully took the screw you have referred to right out and worked the visor back and forth to free things up. No joy. I really didn't want to force it though. I actually have to move the visor closer to the A pillar as the plastic clip and the screen surround isn't matching up with the locator U shaped bar on the visor. Probably 10mm shortening would do the job but I just cant seem to move it.
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Hi Hans, I actaully took the screw you have referred to right out and worked the visor back and forth to free things up. No joy
OK Andy, I get it. I have changed my suggestion about the screw in reply #718.
/Hans in Sweden
.
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Hans, I think your suggestion was right on the mark for the factory visors. The spears on my original units slide right off the visor once the scew is removed. Definitley how they are suppose to work. But for some reason on the replica it seems to do absolutley nothing. Frustrating.
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In the lead up to fitting the leather on my soft top hatch cover I needed to paint the underside. I thought I had done this months back and when I pulled it up a couple of weeks ago I was a bit despondent to see the green hue of the epoxy etch primer.
So last night I hauled it out and started sanded. Finished off the sanding after work today and then masked up and blew 3 coats of stain black. I had almost forgotten what a messy horrible job sanding and painting is.
Its done now and I will get on with the leather over the next couple of days. I was suppose to be doing this with Rodger, so he can get an idea of how to do his, but he has swanned off to Aussie land and will no doubt be enjoying a beer or 10 on the beach with Garry!
I have also been working on the entertainment system again. I really want excellent sounds but dont want them to be seen. Stealth install. When I got the car it had 6.5 inch speakers in the doors and in the factory kick panel location.
It was a no brainer to get rid of the ones in the door and I welded all the 'supplementary' holes the previous owner drilled routing wires through the A pillar and door. Long gone back to factory look.
The new challenge was to research speakers with enough grunt to fill an open cabin and clearly be heard over wind rush etc. Difficult to achieve from a 6.5 inch speaker. One thing going for the factory location is that it has plenty of mounting depth available. I am taking advantage of this and have source some infinity Perfect 6.1 components out of the states.
I am planning on mounting the tweeters inside the main round driver and passenger grills. With this set of speakers I think this is really going to work to my advantage as they have an excessively bright tweeter. The grills can be adjusted in about every plane and can be used to diffuse and direct the high end. I am also considering a parametric equalizer if I can fit one in somewhere where it wont be seen.
Am looking at some high end D type amps with optical inputs that can take the signal from my Bluetooth receiver. Will document this at a latter stage if anyone is interested.
Rodger dropped off some Ali washers for me on his way to the airport. Thanks mate, make sure you come over for a beer when you get back. Finished painting your power steer reservoir.
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Hi Andy, thanks for the reservoir paint looks great, and your welcome to the aluminium washers too. Sorry I won't be there to see you recover the softop hatch but will streak over to your place to get you to help with mine when I get back. Bit of a stretch to see Gary, mucvh as i'd like to but marooned (joke) on Northen Beaches Stdney whereas garry is in melborne. Would be great to meet up with some W113 owners around here.
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Common Rutger, I am only just down the road a bit about 800km away :P ;D ;D There is a number of members there.
Unfortunately I have only just got out of hospital after an operation and will be recovering for some time yet i think.
Enjoy the surf.
Garry
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Decided while my soft top hatch is off the car to finish off the trimming of the hatch. When I pulled it apart I am sure it was original having a 3mm tar sound proofing on the floor of the hatch. This was covered with a very very thin plastic material impregnated with a leather like grain. Up the font wall of the hatch was a strip of vinyl. I am not sure that this was original as it had a different grain and texture to the material on the floor.
In any event I have tried to replicate as closely as possible what I removed several months ago.
I used the same anti drum bitumen based product as I used on the cabin floor. Its a German product and as such is manufactured to a high standard. Other stuff I have used in the past doesn't have the adhesion that this stuff does and often peels off 8 months latter.
When I pulled all the gear out of the car I carefully saved the vinyl material in hope of reusing it. I pulled it out of the shed and spent a couple of hours cleaning it. After an hour of deliberation I made the call that it was too tatty and worn to put back in. It had several small tears and creases in it that I couldn't get out. The decision was made to use the remainder of the leather hide in its place. Even after I cut all the bits out I still have enough to finish off the hard top. If I dont use it it will probably sit in the garage unused for the next 20 years.
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After I finished I stood back and now feel I have done the right thing. It looks really smart.
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I ended up taking a pluck on an online auction for 4 new white walls. Won the auction and picked them up from a small town called Hamilton which was an hours drive each way.
Had them mounted up and balanced on the W108 restored rims. Couldn't resist a trial fit up when I got home to see what they would look like. Tickled pink! To my eye they look right. The 195/70's I pulled off just looked to small under the arches.
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Decided today to attack my kinder seats. I had previously stitched up the covers and just needed to fit them. Still quite a time consuming job to get half decent if your inexperienced. All in all it took me about 3-4 hours for both of them. I am reasonably happy with the result. Again no where near perfect with a few DIY imperfections, but I think that is what is going to make this car a little unique when finished.
I discovered after I started stretching the material up that one of the pieces I had cut had a 'from the cow' imperfection. I think it might have be a snag on a some barb wire of the like. You can actually make out where the wound has healed. I could haul it off and start again with some fresh leather but its just not bad enough to warrant it. If it was a concourse level car then maybe.
Also some of the edges I sewed up sit up a little to proud for my liking. I have seen this on other leather installation and wonder if its just an idiosyncrasy of leather given its considerably thicker and less pliable than vinyl.
Glad I went the extra mile and got the stainless staples. Piece of mind is a wonderful thing. Didn't need any glue on these which made for quite a pain free installation.
At least its a bit of progress for the week. With my latest contract all but over I can now get my head back and really crack on with the interior. Latter this week I will pick up the chrome plating and gold and zinc plating and get on with the seat reassembly. Also just purchased 4 liters of Ados F38 ready for gluing the carpet down.
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Hi Andy, kinder seat looks great. I see you're getting ready to glue your carpet down, I seem to remember quite a bit of discussion on an earlier post which suggested not gluing the bit that fits over the driveshaft hump and goes up to the firewall. I didn't glue mine, nor the ones for the drivers and passengers feet.
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Hi Rodger. Take it your having a great time over in Auz land! Make sure you have a nice cold beer for me. I here what you are saying about the tunnel carpet. Strangely enough I was just pondering the same topic this afternoon. I was thinking to myself that future access to the gearbox inspection hatch and gear shift mechanisms would be a nightmare if everything was glued. Carpet that has been glued down is very hard to pull up without damaging it. The woolen loops get pulled backwards through the weave of the carpet and tend to stay with the car! This happened a lot when I pulled out the old set.
I decided today to finish off all the final satin paint in the interior. Before anyone points out the obvious I know I should have done this ages ago and it doesn't make sense to be doing it now! I paid the price and had to spend ages masking to prevent any over spray on the shiny new dash and leather.
Of course before I started I stripped back out as much as I could to avoid over spray.
Sanded back the shiny clear coated surfaces with a scotch pads to get the satin to adhere. Then prior to bringing the spray gun anywhere near the car I set it up outside to get it working off the least pressure to avoid as much overs spray as possible. Blew three coats over all the required areas and decided at the same time to paint the 3 inches of the sill visible under the over sill. This will allow me to get on and screw the overs sill in place this week and have a clear run at all the internal surfaces that require glue.
I also went and purchased the cheapest, nastiest spray gun from our local super cheap auto. Am going to use this to spray the F38 onto the carpets. I sacrificed a little bit of glue this afternoon to test the gun and it worked beautifully. So ready to rock and roll early next week.
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Yesterday a friend of mine turned up in his 230sl. Pleasant surprise and after a quck cup of coffee he had a look at my progress and then offered to take me for a spin in his car. Was a wonderful distraction and with some fantastic top down weather we set off for a 30 minute jaunt down some beautiful country lanes.
It really gave me a boost and after sitting down for some dinner I put some plans down to have a huge day on the car with the final carpet fit firmly in my cross hairs.
Woke up this morning with a spring in my step and launched into task.
I started by carefully working out which pieces needed trimming. The set was no where near perfect and at least half the parts needed alteration. I marked what I thought needed to be done and decided to wait for cutting as each piece went in to prevent any mistakes. Once you have cut too short there is no going back.
The spray gun is an absolute must as it takes an age to spread the glue across the textured carpet. F38 in 18 degree temp will go off in a matter of minutes so it needs to be applied very quickly to give you wriggle time when fitting it in the car. Some of the larger pieces are difficult to handle and you need to come up with an 'install plan' prior to gluing.
Another good thing to do is get all the correct carpet overlaps clear in your mind. Its easy to get it wrong. I referred to a few pictures on the internet, downloaded them to my phone and reviewed at least four or five times.
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When I got half way through the carpet set I realized that I hadn't yet pumped all the 3M cavity was through the sills. A bit of a downer but I just put down what I was doing and reformulated a plan to get it done as quickly as possible. First pulled my cavity was gun out of storage and measure up the tube wall thickness at 10mm. Decided to drill 13mm holes in the side of the sill to gain access. Chose locations to give me access to as much of the sill as possible. I think I will drill some more holes in the rails underneath the boot to finish off. Can do this latter before I put back in the fuel tank.
I had two one liter wax cartridges and I ended up using both of them. As well as the sills I also did all four cross members sections that run one side of the car to the other. These all had factory holes so no drilling was required. I am interested to know if the factory used these holes to blow an equivalent substance.
Quite a messy job and one I should have also done when the shell was bare. You wouldn't want this stuff all over the carpets as it would be very very difficult to clean. I used three or four drop sheets which was a really good call as the gun was leaking like a sieve soaking through at least two layers of the drop sheets.
Spent a good hour degreasing the mess before progressing with the carpet fit. Wax and glue dont mix.
Found some perfect little rubber low profile plugs to close up the holes I drilled. Gave each hole a good coat of POR15 paint to cover up any exposed metal edges. I think I have covered the rust issues as well as I can. The sills now each have one can off Brunox, an epoxy paint and rust killer/inhibitor, and then 6 months latter 3/4 of a liter of cavity wax. Again good piece of mind even if it is overkill.
After a good 3 hour rust inhibiting stint it was back to carpet.
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Another couple of hours saw the final bit of carpet glued in place. I decided not to glue the main tunnel carpet. None of the floor mats are glued either but just sit loose.
I still need to cut down the drivers carpet and get the edges bound up which will be a job for another day. I don't know if I will try and do the sewing yet. Will try a test piece with one of the off cuts and make my mind up. Might end up being too much for my old 40 year old domestic barnina to cope with. She did bloody well with the leather but carpet may be a bridge too far. Stay tuned.
I am really happy with the result. Very satisfying part of the project to see the cabin come together before your eyes.
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Really looking handsome, Andy. Great work!!
Lin
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Andy,
We know your car better than ours ... really nice to get the details and see the progress.
What are your plans for the motor and tranny? I believe you may have mentioned that the car ran fine when you started your restoration? So maybe you will just be cleaning them up and installing ... but somehow I doubt it.
Keep it up ...
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Thanks guys, its nice to know you get some pleasure out of reading about mundane detail and my efforts aren't in vain. Kampala, I have constantly been contemplating the engine, obsessively over the past 6 months in fact.
The guy I purchased the car from claimed that the engine was extensively rebuilt in the mid 90's at a cost of 7,000. Since then the car has only traveled 2000 miles. I have no reason to doubt it as it ran so beautifully when I got it and the figure of 7000 seemed an accurate number in terms of a full rebuild all those years back.
The dilemma I have is the leaking seals and what to do with them. If it wern't for the rear seal I would definitely not be considering pulling the entire thing down for a recheck.
Another aspect is the whole cosmetic. It really hard to get it looking just right when its all together. I would love to pull the head right down and bead blast. Also thinking about all the nuts and bolts not getting the plating. Can look a bit manky. But on the other hand half this detail is tucked down deep in the engine bay and is never seen.
It just does my head in trying to make a decision.
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Speaker Install 1
My speakers turned up in the post this morning so I decided to take the day and get them installed. I knew that my plans to mount the tweeters stealth style in the main air vents would consume a good deal of time. My gut didn't let me down. I had to pretty well pull apart the entire dash again to get to the vents. Had to be done as unless you want heinous looking modern kit in your classic car you have very few mounting options.
I started by making up a couple of brackets to mount the tweeter on to give me the angles I was after. I looked at gluing the brackets but decided eventually to drill a couple of small holes and use self tapping pk screw to secure everything. I think in hindsight it was a good way to go. A bit more work as the entire vent had to come out of the car to get drill access.
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Speaker Install 2
Will work tomorrow on the main drivers tomorrow. Need to do more leather work on the kick panels which will take an hour or two. I have put most of the dash back but have a few bits and pieces to tidy up. One step forward two backwards. Getting used to it.
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Speaker Install 3
Tackled the main drivers install into the kick panels today. Got out of bed and sorted out stripping the kick panels of the manky old covering. Then made quick work of putting the new leather on.
The install itself was far from easy. Very very sore back tonight after spending quite some hours on my side in the foot well. All sorts of niggles that added up to an entire day. I am sure I will feel much more positive about it when its all hooked up and belting out some of my favorite tunes.
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Speaker Install 4
The drivers side was an absolute nightmare. The pedals and accelerator pedal were right in the way of all the holes that needed to be drilled. A very useful technique is to use the metal surface mount right inside the plastic flush mount ring. Mounting up these first and then bolting the speaker to the metal ring is much easier to get right. The speaker is very heavy and hard to hold in place. Getting the mounting all aligned without the speaker is the way to go.
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Advice needed. Am up to refitting all the threshold rubber mats and ali garnish trim. The all needs to be bolted in before I finalize the carpet. Carpet edges lap into a channel in the inner molding.
I have to make a decision about what to do with the original moldings I took off. My options are as follows:
1) Clean up what I have and put them back in
2) Get new ones at over 1000US by the time I have paid freight, duty and gst.
3) Try and refurbish what I have.
I have only one piece with a slight dent in. The drivers inner piece. Its really not bad and other than this the part is almost new. The passengers inner is almost new and only bears a couple of small scratches. This is the only piece I am happy to put back in untouched.
The two outer pieces are both badly scratched. None of the scratches are that deep so I am thinking as long as I can get a similar finish I will have a crack at refurbishing them.
I spent yesterday talking to a few metal polishers who put me on to a crowd who does anodizing. I can get all four stripped, polished and re-anodized for 250NZD which is less than 1/4 the cost of new ones.
The issue is that nothing is guaranteed and there are risks involved. I was warned that some old ali when processed can pit quite badly. Also the risk of over polishing the thin ali making it very weak is ever present.
I am really interested in if any of you guys have ever faced the same issues and how you solved it. I have listed a whole swag of my W108 parts on our local version of Ebay today so if I get a few sales perhaps I will take the easy path and just buy some new ones. Whenever I do this I feel as if I am cheating if the part can be brought back to life. Its been my restoration ethos since I started the project and I have only let myself down on a few occasions. I really don't want to end up feeling as if I am a cheque book restorer.
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Andy,
It would be interesting to learn have the refurbished alu trim turns out.
I myself have gotten new ones, both originals from MB and repro parts from SLS.
As far as I can tell, The repros look identical to the originals, and even the repros fit was good with the screwholes lining up perfectly etc.
Some say the repros come from the same source as the originals, I think that might be true.
The full set of all four pieces is 390 euros from SLS, deduct 19% vat from that and your net export price will be
about 315 euros.
Originally the carpet that fits into the inner piece is not glued on to it, its just tucked into that part of the alutrim, so you could replace these moldings later without risking damaging the carpet.
Hans
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Thanks Hans, my carpets that I took out were firmly glued to the molding and tore when I took the molding out. I think that you are correct and am not going to make the same mistake. I still need to trim up my carpet as its currently too wide by about 10mm. You guys have it easy with parts. Being so geographically isolated down here in New Zealand we get absolutley hammered when it comes to shipping. With long parts its often not economical. I remember trying to ship a sill for my 2002 from the UK a few years back. The sill was 250 pounds and the shipping was about 450. They offered to cut it in half which would have reduced the price by a half.
My shipment from buds in the states cost around 1000 US which was around 15% the cost of the product. Just the cost of living down under!
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Bonnet Badge Resto 1
While I am at the restoration of the threshold rails I thought I may as well have a crack at the hood badge. New correct ones are ridiculous money. I have seen some sell for over 300US and even second hand ones run at around 200US plus. Just dont see the value myself for such a small item.
Mine came to me in a bit of a beat up condition. Most of the white paint in the star was missing and someone had punched the threaded stud from behind leaving the front pushed out and slightly distorted. Related to this damage some of the blue ceramic has been knocked off around the lettering.
I can put back the white paint with a little effort and know I can get it back to looking very close to factory. But the blue ceramic worries me a little. I dont think I am going to get a matching paint.
The damage to a aluminum is probably not recoverable but isn't that significant so think I might just live with it.
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Is there a local artists gallery/collective with someone that works in this type of stuff? Perhaps they could suggest an approach. Or a type of repair.
Here is a list of links from a post by M Salemi
http://www.emblemagic.com/index.html
http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
http://www.hiberniaautorestorers.com/cloisonne-medallions.html
http://stores.ebay.com/Conway-Collectibles?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 Yes, he claims to do restoration
http://www.classicautoservice.com/emblems.htm
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Hi Jonny, sounds like a cunning plan for the ceramic side of things. I just need a bit of a tip to be able to recreate the almost pearl blue material. The rest of it should be a walk in the park.
Another related topic I was wanting to bring up with you guys is how do you all feel about trusting external companies with your precious car parts. To be honest with you its a bit of a struggle for me after a few bad experiences with damage and complete loss of parts.
We all know how much things cost but when your doing a restore it also mean delays as well while you source new parts.
At the moment I have my seats apart and at three different tradesmen. The chrome platers, the gold and zinc plating crowd and an auto upholsterer who is fixing up the terrible fitment of the early 230 seat debacle. The seats have been apart and away for months and its now starting to make me feel very uneasy. Every day that goes past is just increasing the risk its reassembly wont be so smooth.
If anyone of these guys gets things wrong I am in a world of hurt. Spare parts for seats don't come cheap or easy. I don't actually know what I would do if any were lost of damaged.
I kind of try and 'guard' all my bits an pieces and dont let them leave the property if possible. That way I am the only one to blame if things go wrong.
Also I have found that no one loves your car as much as you do. This also translates into the attention to detail and due care and responsibility taken when stripping parts or making a repair. Obviously sometimes skill, knowledge and capability comes into it and you have to bite your pride to get the result but often with a bit of thought, care and research this can be avoided. This is where the satisfaction in what I am doing with this restoration comes from for me.
Even restoring the most mundane of things back to an 'acceptable level', such as small as this emblem or putting new leather on the steering hood button, are up there with my most satisfying achievements on the build.
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Hi Andy,
I restored a Ferrari hood badge using enamel paint that I mixed to the exact yellow color. It was available in those six or eight little square bottles that come in a model maker's paint kit at the hobby shop for just a few dollars. I bought mine at a dollar store. I just filled in the recesses by dipping the head of a toothpick in the paint and when it was level with the metal surrounding it, I let it dry. I may have sanded it even with fine sandpaper. It's not rocket science but it was satisfying to save $100 with only a couple of hours work.
I nickel plated the badge as well, with a kit that I found on the internet and keep around for when something needs nickel plating. In the states it's sold by Caswell Plating.
Here's a photo of before (left) on a white background and after (right) installed into the hood recess of the Ferrari. After cleaning, the tarnished silver plate really came out OK and the paint color came out perfect. I'm sure that you can, with all the primary colors, mix up the blue perfectly. The white is already pure in the bottle.
For my Pagoda, I bit the bullet and bought a new one.
Good luck.
Tom Kizer
Quebec, Canada
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Cheers for the info Tom. I have used the same technique as you have described to sort out the white paint in the star. I painted it with 2k automotive paint and buffed it back this morning. That part looks great. It now the blue stuff that will cause me grief. It has a certain opaque look about it that will be hard to replicate. I have been experimenting with mixing paint and clear epoxy resin today. Dont think it will work. Will just sleep on it and just keep on plugging away with new ideas. I did gently tease out the indent caused by the last owner cranking on the fixing nut too hard. This is much flatter than it was but did also flatten off the pattern on the face of the badge. Not ideal but less noticeable than the crater it has replaced.
Moved onto the threshold rails this afternoon. Took on board all the advice I have been given in here and decide to run with the suggestion of not gluing the carpet to the rails so I can replace them at a latter stage if I happen to somehow cultivate some sort of miraculous money tree in the back yard. This no glue technique worked out brilliantly and I now also agree it was almost certainly suppose to be like this from the factory. Just doesn't make sense using glue given the result would be just as good without it.
The trick here is to make sure the carpet is exactly the correct length and laps into the recess on the molding as far as possible. I just took my time and trimmed the edge of the carpet a couple of inches at a time making sure it wasn't too short at any point. Cutting to short would certainly bring on a string of expletives and should be avoided at all costs.
I spent a couple of hours cleaning and lightly polishing the moldings. Made a big difference. Decided to run with what I have and replace or repair on the one badly scratched unit. At least now I am confident that I can pull them all off for replacement at a latter stage without too much drama.
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Has anyone had any experience with making the windlace that edges the door opening. GAHH could not supply it to me and instead just sold me the leather to create it myself. I didn't think it was an issue until I started trying to find a source of the round foam insert. I have been to two upholstery suppliers now and both have told me I will be lucky to find it.
I have the original ones which are not in bad condition but are the wrong color. I could repaint them as they are vinyl but I would prefer to get the job right and construct ones in matching black leather. I have though about pulling apart the old ones and reusing the foam but sections of it clearly have deteriorated and the foam has collapsed. I would also like to retain them as templates for the refit.
Any of you guys had experience with manufacturing these from scratch.
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Hi Andy, I had a bumper badge in 3 different colours on it in different panels for a wolseley 4/44 re-enamelled about 10 years ago. I took it in to a local engraver shop (Whangarei) and they sent it away. the badge returned in great shape. NZ Classic Car magazine website might be able to help? Follwing your story with interest.
cheers
Rodger
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Had a go slow day yesterday. Finished up the speaker install and now have the cross overs wired and hidden tucked up under the dash board. The passenger side one fitted nicely along side the glove compartment on the horizontal metal dash shelf. I just used a couple of cable ties to hold it in place. The drivers side one wasn't so easy with all the room taken up by the steering column and pedal cluster. So with this one I used velcro and have positioned the crossover high above the kick panel. Good as gold here as long as your velcro doesn't let go. I took extra precaution and used ados F38 to glue the velcro to the car. I have had issues in the past with the velcro backing adhesive giving up in the heat. Snaked all the speaker wires back to the passenger seat compartment where the new D type amp is going to reside when it finally turns up. Not sure yet how I will secure the amp.
Spent the rest of the day assessing what I am going to do with the diff. I was just going to leave it in an suck up the slight oil leak it has but now I have realized how out of place it looks under the pristine undercarriage. Also last owner in his wisdom has sprayed bitumen under seal everywhere. I have laboriously removed 90% off it with solvent, scrapers and shear determination, but under the and around the diff I cannot get too with all the gear in the way. Also the springs are preventing me from getting to the towers. I really want all the gear out so I can strip everything and start the same process the rest of the underside has been afforded.
I am 90% sure I will end up ripping it all out but at present am mentally just trying to prepare myself for a setback of another month or so on the project duration. At the back of my mind I have always known it was looming but just kept ignoring it hoping it would somehow miraculously go away on its own. Wishful thinking in the extreme.
I would really appreciate some advice from you guys on how to tackle the diff as I don't have much knowledge in this area. I am keen to here if there is anything I need to be careful off during the removal and the best way to ensure it doesn't leak again. ie which seals to replace. I am almost certain its either leaking from the pinion or the main case seal. It looks as if someone has sealed it with cheap silicon with remnant of black silicon dags hanging off in numerous places.
I will probably just buy the best sealant I can get my hand on, say 3bond or the like, and completely do a job on the thing. I would love to get some advice from the top dogs in here on how to do this properly. Really just need a bit of encouragement and guidance to get on with things.
One last query, is it best to take the compensator spring out while the diff is still on the car or just as easy when the unit it out?
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Hi, Andy,
Here's a pretty comprehensive thread on my diff change that may help: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18228.0
I would say pull it, without question. Given the work you've done to date it would seem crazy not to.
Removing it isn't too bad. Stripping it down is pretty comprehensively covered and quite a few have done it. As for the spring, having done this a few times now, I'd remove it with the spring in place (you will need to compress it to take the pressure off the spring; I think I have posted a few pics of a home made tool). Removing the spring in situ I found nearly impossible.
As for anything to look out for, just watch the the swing axle part doesn't get banged as part of the casing could fracture. I think the detail is covered in the above thread; Joe A makes reference to the risk. Going steady, and reading up on the job, you'll be fine. Removal and install is far, far easier with help. The rear axle is bloody heavy.
James
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Hi Andy, if you are going to change the pinion seal, I have made up some tools that make it a lot easier which you can borrow after the 12th of next month.
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Be careful not to break the main casing: when both shocks are off and the center spring is still on, the axle goes to maximum positive camber and the universal joint in the center then comes into contact with the casing. if the axle falls or gets mishandled, it is easy to break the casing.
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Thanks guys, I have all but decided to pull the thing. Damn it! I here what you are saying about cracking the diff housing. Same issue with the 108's. I have pulled out several of these before and the first one I wrecked I destroyed the diff by being too rough. I had the car hoisted on its side supported in a tree and let the entire rear end free. Crashed to the ground from vertical. Am sure you can imagine the damage. Needless to say I learnt from that mistake.
I know I get the unit out by myself in a fairly short period of time, it more what do I do with it when its out. I am almost certain that the last guy refurbished it. All the bushes look fresh and it had a fresh coat of paint on it when I purchased it. Just this damn leaking that I want to fix. I really want to keep the car standard so am not going to contemplate any brake or gear alterations so its really just pull it out try and reseal and check. Will definitely do a chemical strip of all the paint and start again on the cosmetic side of things.
Rodger, I will take you up on the offer of help with the rear pillion seal if you would be so kind. When its out I will take some good pictures and post them up here for all your eagle eyes to point out things that need attention. All your help is greatly appreciated.
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Andy,
When it comes to what to do with it, there are some really good write-ups - ie succinct and detailed - on the site. I think I've referenced a few in the post, below.
When you have it apart it would obviously make sense to examine and if necessary replace the large steel and rubber bush that is so often talked about. It's about 70 euros over here, but will last a lifetime once done. That job also involves replacing a few small copper bushes and the rubber seals when reassembling. The key thing to do as I'm sure you know from having done this with 107s is to index with a metal punch the castillated nut to the axle and thus avoid having to go through the hassle of fitting a new crush sleeve and re-establishing the torque settings, etc.
When I did this last year, I replaced the two wheel bearings and the oil seals, but the remaining bearings looked to be in excellent shape. Most of the hassle I had doing this came from digging out powerder coating which had go to where I hadn't expected it to be, and changing from drums to discs (which involves, basically, a complete re-do of all the brakes, lines, master cylinder change, etc). The axle was the least of my issues.
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Have listened to what you guys have said and decided to compress the compensating spring and remove the diff in the next 24 hours. I am busy trying to find or borrow some compressors.
In the mean time my hub cap paint masks arrived yesterday. Gutted. Beautiful piece of Mercedes engineering but unfortunately for the wrong cap. Is perfect for the one piece unit but no good for the early two piece arrangement as the star is much smaller. Arrrggghhhhhh. Have been waiting for months for the mask to arrive as well.
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Diff Resto Part 1 - Assessment in the car
Posted some pictures here for you guys to have a look at what I am dealing with. As I said I dont think its actually too bad but am interested in your thoughts.
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To give you an idea of where I want to get the back end of the undercarriage to take a gander at the front. It would look just awful on hoist if only half of it was restored. I spent an age getting the front to this point and its still need final paint. I am reading with great interest the other debate going on in here about what the under body should look like. I can blow the final coat when that has been settled. Currently its sitting with 2k epoxy and a top coat of 2k etch primer. So nicely protected. I really want to get into the rear and give it the same treatment.
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The rear axle looks very good. The boot looks good and all the clips appear original, although it looks like the axle has clearly been painted.
Personally, and from experience, I wouldn't waste time trying to secure some normal spring compressors as I doubt you'll get them in. An easier option would be to place the ends of the tubes on stands, put some weight in the boot and run a length of threaded studding through the spring and then put backing nuts on a strong strip of metal and tighten. That should give you sufficient compression such that when you drop the swing axle, the spring will cease to apply pressure to it. It's fiddly, but it was I found the easiest way to compress and decompress the spring for removal and replacement.
If I haven't explained that we'll - and it's early!! - I can probably find a picture.
James
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Hi James, I decided to go commando and build my own compressor. First It tried different purpose spring compressors but none of them either fitted into the spring or were small enough to fit on the outside. Personally I have a very healthy respect for springs after almost having my head taken off in a very close call several years ago so I needed a solution I was comfortable with. I really like compressing springs centrally from down their cores. The clamp on over the edge types give me the screaming s%$ts.
I ended up with quite a cute compromise. See photo.
I was making great progress today and was right on track for pulling the lot when a string of unexpected visitors dashed my cunning plans. Although after several cups of coffee I feel all revved up and ready to go again.
I am convinced the diff has been gone over before which makes my decision making all the more complicated. Do I strip down and replace everything? Guess I just have to get in and look at each pieces of rubber in turn and make a plan.
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That's half a steering coupling you have there on your tool.
Given the level of your restoration, it just makes sense to take the rear axle out to finish the back cosmetically. Once the rear axle is on the floor, It is not that difficult to take it apart and check for wear. Was it noisy? growling (bearings)? or howling (backlash)? If there was none of it, then your backlash and inner bearings are most seemingly good. You can still check all that visually, but don't alter the adjustments. Check the center pin in the diff carrier. On bigger V8 models it ends up having some play. Not likely on yours, but you never know. Also check the sliding sleeve inside the universal joint. It should move freely. If not, it is most likely cracked. This is also quite common on bigger engine models, but it can also happen on smaller engine models. Lots of fun putting it back with all the little rollers! Also check for radial play of the right wheel tube relative to the casing. If you have some, the bronze sleeves will most likely need replacing. This is often due to lack of greasing the two greasing points, and the sleeves can end up with deep scoring. Mileage can also ovalize them. Check for the condition of the center rubber mount. If worn, the center arm will get out of position and throw the angle of the rear end off, mostly upwards. Don't use after market rubber parts. They don't last long, and you don't want to take the axle out again in a few months to replace a cracked center boot or a collapsed center mount.
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Andy, it is well worth replacing the rubbers on both ends of the trailiing arms (back suspension) and the pins on the back of the arms often need replacing too.
cheers
Rodger
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Hey GGR, the car drove really well before I took it apart. No strange noises from the drive train whatsoever. I am well used to listening out for them as well with one of my W108 giving me troubles for years on end with all sorts of funny noises and vibrations. I think I am up to drive shaft no 3 trying to fix the problem.
All the rubber I looked at today seemed to fresh to be factory and I would guess its all under 20 years old with minimal use. The car has only traveled 2000 miles since 1985.
I also paid particular attention to the drive shaft center coupling which seems almost brand new. Also of interest is the sliding drive shaft spline which has caused me so much grief on the 108. If they accidentally slip apart and are put back together in a different orientation it can cause all sorts of balance issues with the entire two piece arrangement being balance as one unit at the factory.
The 108's dont have any marks to show the correct alignment which I always thought to be a terrible oversight. But the 230 shaft I pulled today seems to have very clear marking to show exact orientation of the two half shafts. The shaft on the 230 seems to be in beautiful condition in all respects so I just need to do the cosmetic thing and bang it back in. In saying that the cosmetic thing on this component alone is probably 4-5 hours :-\
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Cheer Rodger, once I have the diff out I am going to take heaps of photos and then give it one huge clean. After which I will take some good close ups of all the rubber components and post them in here for your careful scrutiny. At this point though I am going to put my head on the block as make a prediction that nothing needs to be changed. Well that's probably my wishful thinking talking out loud again. I think its all been done not so long ago. When you get back I would appreciate if you could stop by for a coffee and give me your opinion.
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Hi James, I decided to go commando and build my own compressor. First It tried different purpose spring compressors but none of them either fitted into the spring or were small enough to fit on the outside. Personally I have a very healthy respect for springs after almost having my head taken off in a very close call several years ago so I needed a solution I was comfortable with. I really like compressing springs centrally from down their cores. The clamp on over the edge types give me the screaming s%$ts.
I ended up with quite a cute compromise. See photo.
I was making great progress today and was right on track for pulling the lot when a string of unexpected visitors dashed my cunning plans. Although after several cups of coffee I feel all revved up and ready to go again.
I am convinced the diff has been gone over before which makes my decision making all the more complicated. Do I strip down and replace everything? Guess I just have to get in and look at each pieces of rubber in turn and make a plan.
That's the way I did it. It was fiddly, but safe. Even the compressors you had to canibalise look the same as mine. No wonder they didn't fit.
As others have said, it's pretty easy to strip down and check. I agree with your sentiment that the strip is worth doing to a point; you don't want to get involved with shims and other stuff if there's nothing wrong with the axle. You may want to consider just putting a tube of seal conditioner in the diff and see how that works, although I apprecaite that you won't know until you remount it, so maybe not.
I agree with Rodger on replacing the bushes on the trailing arms. Cheap and easy and as I said it may be worth looking at the bronze (not copper - doh!) bushes and the rubbers that cover them. I think the PNs are in my original post.
Worth checking the breather on the diff and replacing the material inside it whilst your there. Folk here have used the filter material from those vacuum filters (HEPA, is it?) Seems to work. You should replace the oil seals at the end of the axle tubes. Cheap and easy. Obviously you'll check the wheel bearings. The standard bearing is about 10 euros, so may be worth considering; the (considerably) more expensive bearing is less likely to wear as quickly so is probably fine I suppose.
Your photos, below, show very well both drive shaft grease nipples that I think most people miss when greasing the car. Useful for the maint wiki as I don't think those pictures are in there.
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.../...The 108's dont have any marks [on the drive shaft sections] to show the correct alignment.../...
It is advisable to start any workhop activity on the driveshaft by marking the position of the splines, for instance by chiselling a dot onto each driveshaft half
see pic below (modified borrowed picture), or perhaps a dot of paint
/Hans in Sweden
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Mega Diff Day
Got up early this morning and took a couple of hours to extract the rear end. Took all the good advice in here and paid particular attention to handling the diff to avoid any damage to the casing. I also compressed each spring in turn so I didn't do any damage to the bolts holding in the triangular plate. I have had these shear off with cars I have wrecked where I didn't compress the springs and just unbolted the arm with the bolts all loaded up.
I then spent another hour or so degreasing the entire unit with petrol after I ran out of proper degreaser. This revealed that I actually have a mixed bag of replacement rubber scattered throughout. Some brand new, some older and dry looking and some pretty buggered.
I still havn't got a clear game plan in my head. Before I start stripping things I thought I would post good pictures in here and see what the experts think.
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More Diff Pics
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More Diff Pics
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More Diff Pics
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I am going to hang off doing anything with the diff until I have got some good advice and a sound game plan. Until then I will work on the floor pan again. Started off with a sharp knife and peeled off as much of the heinous black tar under seal that the some muppet applied by the inch. This took me a good hour or so to get it back to the factory under seal. I really want to preserve as much of the original fabric as I can and a good amount of the factory under seal actually looks really fresh. Just have to overcome the problem of the non factory muck getting into all the nooks and crannies.
After I had finished with the scraper I then spent a couple of hard hours on my back with a angle grinder with a coarse steel brush attached. First pass at cleaning any sign of rust back to bare metal and also scraping off any black tar underseal that I missed with the knife.
I definitely have a long road ahead of me before I am ready for paint but do feel that I had a really productive day. Good feeling.
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Hi Andy, the trailing arm pivots shown in the top photo of your 9.58 post definitely need pulling apart. There are rubbers and trunnion shafts that will need inspection and probable replacement. These critturs are fiddly to take apart and quite frankly dangerous when you compress them to put them together again. I made some little tools up and pressed them together in my 12 tonne shop press and you are welcome to se this if you need to after I get back home
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Hey Rodger, this stuff is all way above my pay scale so any help to get it right is much appreciated. I am interested to know if you can determine if the rubber is worn without stripping everything. I was thinking that if they were worn then the arms would get quite sloppy. Mine are really tight with no lateral slop detectable at all. I am however thinking that without taking these off I wont be able to paint them properly. I am tossing up if I should get all of it powder coated or not. I may just give it all the epoxy treatment.
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The chrome platers finally finished up with the seat parts so I went and picked them up today. All the nuts and bolts have also been zinc and gold plated so I can get into the final rebuild of the seats. Probably wait till next week and try and continue on the under body.
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Andy,
Great diff pics. Having had a look, I personally wouldn't bother stripping it. I say this because, first, it looks good enough, and second, you'll probably find - as I did - that even old rubber on these is actually fit for purpose. If you strip the diff there's a chance - albeit a small one - that you may not get the proper torque on the bearings when you put it back together. If it all seems sound and the diff carrier arm is tight with no play, I think it’s enough to replace a few easy bushes, etc and put it back in. Of course, if there’s play and it doesn’t feel tight, you’ll want to strip it. So for me, it's a no brainer: don't do it unless you HAVE to, rather than just WANT to.
I would add the following comments based on your pictures:
Diff resto 23: This bush is very hard anyone, but it’s easy and cheap to replace. Replace.
Pic 22 and 19 – this is the only area I’m slightly unsure about, as I can’t really see what the photos are showing. The rubber ‘donuts’ sit over the bronze bushes, presumably to keep the grease in and grime out. You’ll need to get that area a really good clean and put fresh grease in.
Pic 20: These trailing arm bushes look pretty tired and I would replace them. The bolts can be a bugger to undo, and you may need to replace them, also. MB does a kit with all the parts. Read the thread I posted that’s below here some way about how to put these back. Don’t use any lubricant or slip (talc is OK) because they shift a little too easily once the weight it back on. You want them looking like they do now. The circlips aren’t that hard to get back on. I’ve posted a picture showing a method in the thread below which uses a vice and a few bolts. Piece of cake.
You should also replace the large rubber donuts at the front of the trailing arms in Pic 25. Note that the arms are ‘sided’ – ie different for left and right.
James
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Thanks James, that is really good sensible advice which I think I will probably follow to the tee. I am going to start pricing and sourcing all the new rubber this week. Spent most of today under the car again prepping the underside for epoxy sealing. Quite a job. Wish I had bead blasted the entire car right about now.
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You should also replace the large rubber donuts at the front of the trailing arms in Pic 25. Note that the arms are ‘sided’ – ie different for left and right.
James
Andy, you probably know this, but in addition to the arms being "sided", the rubber donuts are to be installed in a "non-obvious" direction. There is a taper on the floor "cone" and a taper in the rubber donuts. Don't be tempted to install them so the taper on the donut matches the taper on the "cone". If you do that, then the donut will be upside down, even though it is easier to install that way. There is a special tapered "donut" GUIDE that screws onto the "cone". It's used for installing the arm and donut on the "cone". The tapered guide flares open the small end of the tapered hole in the donut so it will install over the "cone".
I didn't have a GUIDE, but after installing the donut into the arm with the small end of the tapered hole "up" (in car position), I pressed progressively larger lubricated sockets into the donut, each larger socket pressing the smaller one out the other side, until the donut hole was large enough, with a big socket in it, to be bigger than the "cone" on the body. I then jacked the arm and donut onto the lubricated "cone". The cone pressed the socket back out the bottom as the donut was jacked onto the "cone".
On one side of the donut is the word "UNTEN" which means bottom. It should be facing the ground, which makes the small end of the tapered hole point up toward the "cone" on the body.
There is the following thread that discusses the donut installation: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19385.0
Good luck.
Tom Kizer
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Hi Andy, just like to backup what James is saying particularly about Pic20. Buy the kits as he suggests, including the shafts. If James has an easy way to get them back together go for it. Regards Tommistuff comments, the rubbers on the other end of the trailing arms are a bugger to get back on. I did it but wished I had made the big tapered nose guide afterwards. Could machine one up quite easily if you want to wait until I get back. I have a picture of what the official MB one looks like. If someone can tell me what the largest diameter of the guide should be I will get a pice of aluminium shaft (quite cheap) while I am in Sydney. Really good metal supplier close to where I am staying here.
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Hey Rodger, thanks for the offer. To be honest I feel kind of ill at the moment and am having huge regrets taking the diff apart. The further into it I get the more I realize I am totally under qualified to be doing this. I stripped the brakes and all the external hoses etc this afternoon but am a bit stuck on how to get the brake backing disks off. It looks as if you have to take the entire half shaft out. At this point I should probably spend a good couple of hours reading the BBB. I have a huge mounting pile of parts to restore and feel as if I am now playing some twisted game of snakes and ladders and I have just slipped on the longest snake on the board. I doubt very much if I will have even touched the diff for the next couple of weeks as I am back working on another short term contract for the next month or so. Really wish I could just wake up on Monday morning and dedicate my time to this for the next couple of months but have the family to feed and cloth. Will do my best to push on the diff project each day.
Another question for you all, how do you determine if the main swing arm pin bushes are shot. I can feel a little bit of lateral play. I have been reading James and others posts on getting the central pin out and didn't really like what I was reading. It sounds as if the rear diff assembly is one of the hardest most technical parts of the car to work on requiring all sorts of special tools to accomplish tasks.
In any event I really appreciate all your help and advice. Just need a huge boost of confidence and enthusiasm and I am sure I will be off laughing again.
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Hi Andy, how about leaving the diff and getting on with the seats etc. i will be back Wednesday week if that helps. With regard to telling how much the back trailing arm bushes are worn, I changed mine as a matter of course whilst I was doing the rest of the suspension rubbers etc. The flanges you cuold see on the rubber bushes looked ok but the rest of the bush was another story when i got it out. can you not check back with the last owner?
Just remember I did mine with the diff in place so changing the parts should be a lot easier on yours. Would be amazed and alarmed if you had to take the axles out to remove brake back plates but i cleaned mine up in place and spray pianted them there, was happy with result. As James says don't open any of the pre-loaded bearings up a such as the diff or axles if it is running right.
cheers
Rodger
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.../...how do you determine if the main swing arm pin bushes are shot.../...
You hold the left rear axe half (housing) firm, and then you push hard to wiggle the right axle half (grab it out by the end) in the car's longitudinal direction.
There should of course be no play whatsoever in by the center pivot pin and its bushings. It is useful to have a helper to hold the left axle half firm while wiggling.
Note: if you do this while the axle is still attached to the car, the right trailing arm must be disconnected
As an aside, I change all rubber parts in the chassis by default on the cars that I own or manage. This is because the rubber now is some 45 years old, and comes out deformed and hardened. The results in driving comfort are noticeable. Alignment of chassis and wheels is performed in the same go
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Hans, thanks mate. Pretty much well confirmed what I thought. I can detect and observe the lateral movement of the pin so guess I am in for stripping all this down as well. Have been reading accounts of all the difficulties getting the bushes apart and how people have damaged the pin and had to use dry ice or heat to budge the bushes. Just feel a little overwhelmed as I am not an engineer and when things start to get technical I feel as if I am struggling to keep my chin above the water line. Guess I need to just take a deep breath and take things as they come. Probably not as bad as my mind is currently making it out to be!
Thanks again for advice.
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Rodger, would dearly love your help if I run into problems. I will be going back onto the interior this week as a matter of fact. Also have all the under body prep and painting to do so not as if I cant find anything else to work on. :P
Just make sure you have a nice holiday and dont start thinking about my unfortunate problems ;)
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From memory, the backing plates are held in place by threaded studs with a cut out on the head that allows them to be tapped into the axle tubes from the rear. You need to remove the studs to remove the plates. By the time you get to the point where you tap the studs back to remove them, you'll have everything out. Removing the stub axles is not hard. (It's easier when the axle is on the car and reduces the weight you have to move around, not that this helps, Andy. The stub axles weigh a ton and it'll be easier putting the axle back on the car without them, I think you'll find).
Joe A has demonstrated how easiest to remove the stub axles. There's a ton of info in this post, which you should read: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4487.0
Whilst I know a few have struggled to get the axles out, I think most don't. I've used the piece of metal trick a number of times, and whilst it does occasionally take a good bit of hammering, they've always come out in the end.
Don't sweat pulling the diff apart. I appreciate it's going to be an unwanted additional task, but having done it on my own from scratch using only the info on the site, which is now considerably more detailed given recent efforts, it's not that bad at all. There is talk of dry ice and heating and cooling, but I never had to do any of that. I used a kettle of boiling water to heat a part, and a torch at one point but no need for anything more dramatic. Just make sure you index the crush sleeve unless you're going to be changing bearings, etc in which case you'll need to go through a pretty laboured process that I was spared. You may not be an engineer, but you know a ton more about this sort of thing than I do, and I managed it - eventually. So if I can do it... ;D
I think you'll be fine, plus you have the added advantage of folk who've recently done the job who can perhaps assist.
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Another day another Mission
In reflection one really fun thing about this journey I am on is the constant stream of parcels that turn up from all over the world. Its not just me either. The kids have taken incredible joy in running down to the box to get the next installment. They often argue over 'whose turn it is'. Wonderful.
Track and trace aids this playful pastime and I can usually predict down to a ten minute window when the bit are going to arrive. This morning was no exception with the new D class amp turning up from the state which will provide a bit of omph to my stealth audio system.
I am itching to wire it all up this morning and am going in to buy some really heavy gauge power cable and a 110amp fuse holder.
The unit itself is beautifully made and fits perfectly under the seat between the rails. I took quite a few measurements before I ordered it to make sure all my clearances were ok. Will secure it to the carpet with velcro to stop it sliding around. I think I will get out the industrial needle and thread and gently stitch one half of the velcro to the carpet so that no damage is done and it can be reversed with no trace if need be.
To complete the system all I need now is a dedicated parametric equalizer and some sort of tactile volume control between the bluetooth output and the input of the amp. I plan to mount this up in the center console imitating the factory knob you sometime see in this location. I think its for the rear heated window???
Think I will use a JL audio product for the job. Cheap as chips and quite high quality. http://www.crutchfield.com/S-v6vhBbgZu8y/p_136CLRLC/JL-Audio-CL-RLC.html
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Hi Andy,
Could you post the link for the amp? This could be what I'm after. I'd be interested to know what speakers you're going to use and whether you're going to add a dedicated bass speaker. I put an amp in the same place years ago and it's been fine, but despite having done research, I think the speakers don't work well in a convertible. I think my amp is 2 channel but I think I need to add a dedicated bass speaker. I believe that a 2 channel amp will not allow me to do this, although I know zero about this sort of thing.
This is my little amp and where I put it
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7823.0
James
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Wired up the new audio system this afternoon. Purchased high quality 8 gauge power and earth cable and some good quality interconnects for all the components.
Also wired a cheeky 4p4t switch to channel the output of the bluetooth receiver between the original becker aux input and the new Infinity Amp. I can now flick the switch and here the difference between about 2w rms 50 year old amp driving a single pretty shabby speaker and a modern 250w rms per channel amp running some pretty impressive speakers. The difference is quite astonishing.
I have ordered my active level controller and a new 'reasonable quality' parametric equalizer. I need the latter as to get the best out of the amp and speakers. The kappa perfects are notorious for having very very bright tweeter. These can be totally tamed with the addition of this piece of kit.
The system even without this addition is actually really impressive. The kappa perfects pump out very very impressive bass and are capable of moving a massive amount of air. So much so that I immediately had issues with panel resonance. I got this under control by demounting the speakers, again, and lining the steel cavity they sit in with fat mat. Made a massive difference and cleaned up the bass no end. Much more punch now.
I did buy the kapa amp with a view to using half its capabilities to drive a compact sub under the driver seat. I now no longer think I will need it with the main 6.5 inch kappa drivers pumping out so much low end.
James the speakers I used are as follows. Awesome price for the quality. The cheapest I could get these in New Zealand was 600nzd. I ended up getting a brand new set off ebay delivered for 250. You guys have it really easy over in the states. The amp was about the same price.
http://eu.infinitysystems.com/infinity-product-detail-eu/kappa-four.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Db-Drive-E7Eq7-Okur-Series-7-Band-Parametric-Equalizer-/301162163234?pt=US_Signal_Processors&hash=item461ea9ec22
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Brilliant, Andy, thanks.
Are you just using 2 footwell speakers with tweeters? I may end up taking my car to a specialist to see what they recommend. If there's a way to run a separate bass speaker from a 2 channel amp, which I doubt, I'd like to hear how that sounds. I suspect my little amp hasn't got the guts to do that, however.
And I'm from the UK, not the States!!! ::) (Although we have it pretty easy when it comes to getting bits, also, it's probably cheaper in the US). Just had to make that point. I feel better now.
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James, the kappa 4 is a 4 channel amp. Divided into two. So you can use half the amp to power 2 speakers and the other half to drive your sub or two other speakers. It has a built in high pass or low pass filter so is extremely flexible in how you can configure it. It sounds just what you need. All I am using is the foot well 6.5 inch speakers, a set of cross overs and the associated tweeters which I have hidden in the vents. I selected these as they have a massive magnet and a very rigid cone designed to move as much air as possible at high pressure levels. They are specifically designed to compete with a with a sub woofer in a confined cabin.
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I got the seat pads back from the auto trim guy last night and have set about putting everything back together this morning. Really exciting stuff for me to get these back together.
I had issues with the gold plating on all the large fixing bolt causing interference issue so had a bit of extra time sanding and treating bare metal. But in the end everything slipped back together nicely.
I still haven't bolted on the seat rails and have just propped the seats up to see what its all going to look like. Couldn't resist.
Love them to bits. They look wonderful and have really perked up my restoration spirits after the disappointment of being lumped with the additional headache of the diff.
Just need to find one of the small plastic knobs that go on the end of the chrome arm for reclining and also get my seat rails zinc coated again and the seat will be done. What a journey. I have done a quick sum and think that a set of fully restored seats, after you have paid for the second hand seats and then fitted new pads, leather covers and labor to fit them and the chrome plating, I dont think you would have much change from 5k US. Very very expensive pieces of furniture
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Took this short video of the play in my main diff swing arm bush. I would appreciate if someone with good knowledge can take a look and let me know what I already suspect.
I think it has far too much play! Probably why the rubber seals seam to be shot.
I really need to make a play on this diff and get things moving along. Am feeling itchy all over each time I see it in the drive :-\
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I just checked a 250S rear end I have here and it has no fore and aft play at all so I think you're right, that bushing needs to be replaced.
Could you post a video/audio of your radio operating, when it's all done?
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Thanks Dave, appreciate your efforts. I wasn't what I wanted to here but isn't unexpected!
If I make a video of the audio system what do you want to see the old original one or the new. With the new there is nothing to see as everything is hidden and you wont get a feel for either the quality or volume through a video. I probably will just put one up demonstrating how I can switch the audio source between the factory and modern amps. No doubt when the time comes and all the rest of the gear turns up I will try and document the last bit of the installation. Probably another month off yet.
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The bushing in the video is completely knackered, you will have to replace it and while you are at it remove the long shaft and replace the steel bushes, you will find (with a bit of luck) that the phosphor bronze bushes will be serviceable.
It is not very difficult to do, after the road you have gone down you owe it to the car ! Engine next ! ????
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Thanks Eric. I will have a crack then! Not quite sure how to start this. Is it just a case of following my nose or is there some ridiculous sequence of steps you have to go through to ensure no damage is done. I can imagine that the parts to repair this are going to be expensive and that there is some nasty bronze bush that has to be pressed out. Is there any good threads in here with photos of all the steps?
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Anyone got a parts list and estimated cost for refurbishing the entire rear end?
Am picking I need the following. Let me know what you guys think.
Pinion Seal $14
Differential "Clunk" Bushing $295
Trailing Arm Repair Kit $162 X 2 = $334
Trailing Arm Rubber Donut $15 X 2 = $30
Trailing Arm Rubber Retainer 47 X 2 = $94
Total $767
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Andy,
I do not see the rubber parts for the side support (Panhard rod)
The large, tubular diff bushing is about €90 for instance from dbdepot.de or SLS. But perhaps duty, tax etc makes your price higher.
The large rubber mount, accessible in the trunk, is best bought from Albert Gerold: >albertgerold@hotmail.com<
The M-B part has too soft rubber in it, also much more expensive.
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Hans, I am sure my side support rubber is all ok. Seemed as if they had replaced that. I will give it a good clean and cross my fingers.
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Andy, i have just looked at your video. Bushes knackered alright. If you leave this part till next week I can have a look, might be able to use "dufor" bushes to replace these and you can use my press to get them in and out. Might be able to machine pin out of high tensile steel too.
cheers
Rodger
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Mammoth effort today flat on my back prepping the rear floor pan for paint. Shoulder are on fire tonight. Started off with 4 liters of solvent and cleaned off all the bitumen the last owner sprayed everywhere. This was by far the biggest job. Never never never use bitumous under sealer on your car. Its the most hideous stuff and cant be painted. It would probably come off quite easily if you bead blasted but with a wire brush on an angle grinder it just smears all over the show. Solvent was the only option. I got 99% of it off. Was very difficult where it had been blown all over the factory under seal which has a very coarse texture and catches the bitumen in all the hollows.
After I finished with the solvent the entire surface got a couple of once overs with the wire brush. Mainly concentrated on all the detail I missed the with the first coarse pass a few days back. Then finished up with a sold scotch to get a good key for the primer and then couple of liters wax and grease remover to give the paint the best possible chance of adhering.
Another hour or so and the masking was done. Quite a few internal holes that had to be masked from inside the cabin and also in the trunk.
All that effort for half an hour of painting. Hopefully the prep was well done and the car is now set up for the next 50 years. I can certainly say it has much more paint than applied at the factory. I really plied it on thick in areas that are hard to get too susceptible to rust like the shock towers.
Tomorrow when the paint is cured I am going to blow a couple of coats of wurth paintable under body sealant. Its as close as I can find to the original stuff.
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Some more photos of the underbody in primer
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.../...cleaned off all the bitumen the last owner sprayed everywhere..../... Never never never use bitumous under sealer on your car...
I'll certainly second that opinion! I hate the stuff - and all four old cars I have bought have been thoroughly sprayed.... :(
.../... come off quite easily if you bead blasted but with a wire brush on an angle grinder it just smears all over the show. Solvent was the only option
A viable alternative I am using nowadays is dry ice blasting. If you would like to try it (perhaps only for a small component part), see if you can locate a company performing this process in your vincinity. Described here:
http://www.cryogenesis.co.uk/dry-ice-cleaning.php (http://www.cryogenesis.co.uk/dry-ice-cleaning.php)
http://blog.nitrofreeze.com/2010/01/dry-ice-blasting-for-auto-body-and.html (http://blog.nitrofreeze.com/2010/01/dry-ice-blasting-for-auto-body-and.html)
/Hans in Sweden
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Hans, I have heard of the dry ice cleaning before. I think it would also take off the factory under seal as well. I discovered by accident that common paint stripper is also supper effective at taking off the factory under seal. I think chemical strippers are underrated and have the major advantage of leaving the factory zinc coating in place where abrasive techniques strip the steel of this protective coating.
I am trying to achieve a sympathetic refurbishment leaving as much of the factory fabric as possible. This included the under seal. I know that its far more work and isn't financial as viable as stripping and re-coating but I am a sucker for punishment and am begrudgingly happy to put in the effort.
I have had a lot of people telling me I am mad and that I am asking for problems with rust hidden under the under seal. All the sound under seal I have ever pulled up is always covering pristine sheet metal. If its still providing this protection 50 years on is there any need to pull it all off. Anywhere the seal is cracked or peeling I treat with contempt and grind it out until I hit clean sheet. Treat any exposed steel with zinc rust converter (POR15 metal ready or similar) and then use a modern 2k sealer. Then replace the under seal. That's my job tomorrow. I think I have retained well over 95% of the factory under seal.
I am interested in other peoples opinion on under seal and what you have done with it.
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.../...dry ice cleaning before. I think it would also take off the factory under seal as well
No, not at all. What comes off are loose particles adhering to the surface being cleaned and the tar (bitumen) stuff. Paint that is ok and the underbody coating that still firmly adheres to the body metal is left intact. See example of post-iceblasting treatment, the underbody in image below (picture from wuenscholdtimer.de web). The light grey paint is the original factory primer (the whole car bodies were dipped in this paint, early on at the assembly line in Sindelfingen)
/Hans in Sweden
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Wow, Hans that's and amazing process then. The result looks as if it was rolled out of the factory. It appears there are a couple of outfits in NZ as well. I wish I knew about it before and definitely would have investigated.
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The epoxy 2k takes a couple of days to cure properly so I have had a bit of down time to work on other projects. I did however apply some pretty liberal doses of seam sealer to various locations. This was just brush on stuff that I worked up into various joints and seams. Again before this application I used brunox an epoxy rust inhibitor/converter and sprayed up into all the seams to prevent future problems. The last thing you want to do is seal in rust.
Last night after all this had dried I decided to wack on the first coat of stone chip to try and recreate all the areas where I have taken off the factory underseal. In some places its really thick, like on the wheel well, and I know that I will need at least three applications to build up a factory look. If you try and do it in one go you just end up with a really horrible slumping effect. The stone guard I used is a Wurth product which is paintable and not bitumen based. It dries to a very hard finish similar to the factory stuff but is much more viscous and is only designed to be put on in thin layers.
I used it to do the same repairs to the front floor pans and now you would be really hard pressed to tell the difference. Over time it gets harder and harder and now even a good solid fingernail test cant tell the difference between old and new.
The gun I used to apply it is cheap as chips, I think 20USD. If any of you guys ever have to do repairs on your floor this is a good option. Cheap and readily available.
Will wait another day or so and recoat. Hopefully by Tuesday I will be able to blow the final top color coat on and be done with the body shell. Something to celebrate!
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Spent this afternoon paint stripping all quite a few of the rear end bits and pieces. Concentrated on the drive shaft and have this to a stage where I can mask up and paint. I really want to get the other parts down into the blaster tomorrow so I have a reasonable quantity of bit to paint. Bit of a pain to mix up and clean just for one part.
Does anyone know what the factory color is for the rear hubs shown in the second photo. They are aluminum but came to me painted in black. I think satin black was probably how they left the factory.
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Satin black is probably correct Andy, I think these have the original finish.
Re: your radio, I guess the sound was the main thing. Original looks with enhanced sound and volume is appealing but I guess you had to cut some sheetmetal in the (hidden) footwell right?
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Dave, thanks for the photos. I am going with satin. Will put down some black etch primer followed by satin black 2k top coat first after I bead blast them. Tomorrows job.
The car came to me with 6 inch holes already cut in the passenger footwell. I toyed with welding them back over but decided to keep them and find the best possible speakers to fit. They can barely be seen they are so far down.
I went to huge lengths to get the original radio working well so have best of both worlds now.
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Can anyone tell me if the early 230sl had the option of a heated rear window and if so was the switch located in the center console as shown in the photo below. I want to modify an early switch knob to fit on the new active audio volume controller. I am hoping it was an original option and I am not going to make the install look too out of place. If anyone has photos of an early 230sl with this option I would be most appreciative.
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My understanding is that that option came in around mid 1969 according to the Engelen book but that reference source has been known to be wrong.
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Bugga, do you guys think its too tacky to put it in an early 230? The carpet set from GAHH came with the short and long console insert. I guess it was just a generic 230, 250 and 280 pattern.
I cant think of anywhere else to put the volume control. Any ideas.
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Hi Andy,
attached a MB price list of 1963/64 where a heated rear window is not an option: code 248, "Heckscheibe elektrisch heizbar".
...Wolfgang
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I put down the last two topcoats of paint on my undercarriage this afternoon. I ended up deciding to use the last couple of liters of silver base coat left over from the repaint. I mixed it with a 4 to 1 ratio with standard hardener. Normally you wouldn't do this but I had it on good authority that this is an excellent trick to replicate factory underbody textures. The hardener seals the base coat rock solid and gives it a slightly higher gloss level. Not as much as being clear coated but more of a satin appearance if that makes sense.
I am actually tickled pink with the result. It might not be totally 'factory' but seems like a good compromise.
Something to celebrate for me as it marks the end of the restoration of the shell. This journey has taken the best part of 14 months. Sorry about the poor photos. By the time I had finished up and cleaned my gun it was dark outside and the wife was growling.
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Went back to the audio system this morning after the JL Audio line level mixer arrived from the states. Spent most of the time modifying the spindle of the mixing pot to take a spare early W108 knob I had floating around. Ended up working out well and used a tight interference fit technique to hold it in place.
The bracket took a while as well. Made it out of some old shelving angle iron I found. Welded on two small tabs to allow the unit to be screwed to the tray. I took quite a bit of care to ensure I left enough clearance to take the leather covering. Ended up nailing this one and the unit probably didn't need the additional tabs and screws and could have relied on the snug fit to keep it in place.
Wired everything up this afternoon. Its an active unit so required a power, remote and ground feed.
The big benefit of this device is that it has one input (from my bluetooth receiver) and two outputs. One output is variable and is controlled by the mixing knob. This one goes to my amp and modern equipment. The second output is fixed and I have run this to the input of the original 50 year old becker on the dash.
Quite magic, you can sit in the drivers seat and demonstrate the amazing bluetooth input blaring out of the tiny oval speaker. Time it right and twist the new volume pot at a strategic moment in your favorite song and it an entirely different proposition.
The volume mixing pot is actually positioned in a really great location. Its really easy to reach down and adjust it. As the crow flies it really close to my left hand on the steering wheel.
Another minor victory!
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A few of you guys have asked to see a video of the complete audio system. I tried tonight to put something together. It really hard to record and show the difference in quality between the old and new so the vid really is only any good for showing the functionality. Believe me that the difference is quite phenomenal when your sitting in the drivers seat. I was going to continue to develop the system but have decided to call it a day as it really is now good enough.
I was going to install a parametric equalizer but have been playing with free dsp software on the android device and am really happy with a free ware 8 band software based equalizer. Its really tamed the issues I had with the ear bleeding levels of treble the infinity perfects are renowned for.
I ended up persevering with various DC to DC isolation IC's and have 100% eliminated all the crosstalk issues as well. Another small but fiddly time consuming task behind me.
So for those who want to take a quick look (and imagine the great sound quality) follow this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqFt0jneYR4&feature=youtu.be
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Andy,
Thanks, but sadly we don't seem to be to view it because it contains music. Just looked on YouTube and it's not licensed to play here.
:(
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Good old You Tube. Cant believe the restrictions. Perhaps I should record some of my own arrangement to get around the whole copyright issues. James the irony is that the music I used was picked deliberately for my UK 113 buddies. A bit of Madness belting out.
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I had no troubles viewing it… difference in sound quality could be heard quite well.
Peter
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Andy, it played here in the USA just fine.
I noticed that when you turned on the radio, the screen lit up somewhat brilliantly. On the earlier Europa mono I have, the little "Chiclet" light barely lights up anything at all, so clearly they made some kind of improvement. I thought I had something wrong with mine until Becker Autosound told me no, that's the way it is/was…
Great job!
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In that case, it's Ze Germans.
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Mike, the radio head unit was not refurbished at all. I took the top off and used about a can of contact cleaner to get rid of 50 years of dust etc. But other than that its as I received it from Germany. Perhaps the previous owner at some point replaced the bulbs. It could have been the cheap phone camera that made it look brighter as well.
This afternoon I hooked into the refurb off all the diff parts that have come off the rear end. I started by removing the rear trailing arms and extracting the rubber bushes. It was much simpler that I had expected and ended up only needing a hand clamp to compress the rubber bushes enough to flick off the securing clip.
Paint stripped the various parts and then decided to get aggressive with the angle grinder mounted steel brush to reduce the amount of time I need to spend in the blaster. The though of another day standing in front of it really doesn't make me too happy. I would much prefer to take these parts to the powder coaters and pick them up next week but with funds dwindling I need to revert to the school of hard yaka and some really staunch epoxy paint. Much cheaper and will probably only cost 40 dollars.
I did take all the parts to the powder coaters and he quoted 500. I have got him to do the three springs as they are just too hard to strip and bead blast. He cut me a deal for 100 for all 3. Pick these up latter this week.
I am interested to here what you guys think about painting vs powder coating. I love powder coating but its not how they did it at the factory and I am sceiptical to how long it will last. without flaking off. Which is more durable?
Also interested to see what everyone thinks about reusing half worn rubber. False economy????
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Andy,
I powder coated my rear end, so to speak, because it was not that expensive. It did cause me big problems; I didn't prep it properly and so then had to spend ages removing it from the inside of various parts where bolts were supposed to go, etc. I am pretty sure powder coated will outlast paint, though. But that said, I guess it depends on whether you will use the car in all weathers. I've been so impressed with how you've done the underside; it looks like you could drive the car through the sea on a daily basis and it would never rust! It's got paint, though, not powder, and the bodywork is far, far more susceptible to rust that the axle and associated parts, so in effect you'd be spending more money to coat something that would never really decay and which will almost certainly out survive the rest of the car. It is therefore not logical in my view to coat the rear.
As for the rubber shown in the picture, I'd replace the lot. It's not that expensive, and if you don't powder coated, you'll save money.
James
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Cheers James, I am definitely going with paint. The paint system I am using is also much better than the factory so I am sure it will protect it for the next 40 odd years. You are right about the preparation as well. Powder coating, like any covering is effected by inferior prep. I had some powder coating back a couple of years ago where they hadn't blasted properly and the coating just flaked off in my hands. At least when you do it yourself you are a master of you own destiny and spend as much, or as little time on the job as you want.
I have started stripping down the rest of the diff tonight. I want to drop the main swing arm pin that holds the stuffed bush and also the right hand axel tube. I have been looking at the breakdown and on this side of the car it appears there is a circlip on the diff end of the shaft. I am after some guidance on the best was to pull this main pin out.
At this point I am thinking.
1) Drain the oil (stupid but I havn't done it while in the car)
2) Drop the clamps holding the flexible boot
3) Release and carefully knock out the tapered locking pin in the diff housing that prevents the pin from being withdrawn
4) Undo the main retaining nut on the front end of the diff
5) Use a drift to try and knock the pin out. Try not to damage the end of the pin.
6) Once the pin is out I should be able to slide the half shaft axel from the sliding taper and pull away the entire axel and axel tube. Is there a retaining circlip on the very end of the half shaft that will prevent me from doing this?
I would really appreciate if someone can review this and let me know if I have anything messed up.
If I am correct it might be easier to then work on the half shaft on the bench.
I am wondering if it down to the level of decomposition if I should then keep on going and strip the half shaft right down and check all the bearings and replace the seals. Do I reseal the main left hand diff casing in case its leaking??? Where the hell do you stop???? Joe, Dr Benz, anyone????
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Hi Andy, I have found a photo (attached) of how I got the circlips on the rubbers for the rear of the trailing arms. The photo is sideways sorry, but you can see I used a piece of steel plate with a circle cut out larger than the circlips. The steel plate has a piece of the circle broken away so the the circlip can be inserted. Another steel bar is placed on top of the plate and then pressed down. This depresses the washer far enough to expose the circlip groove and the circlip is then pushed in with a pice of steel (not fingers. The pressure is then slowly let off the press. You are welcome to use my setup if you want.
cheers
Rodger.
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Cheers Rodger, I would appreciate some help getting these back together when everything comes back from the platers and I have finished up with the painting. Easy when you have the gear!
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There's a very easy way to do this using a vice and two bolts if you don't have a press. (looks easier than the press, I have to say). There is a picture in a link in this thread I posted at the start of the rear axle discussion.
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Thanks James, I love it. Your a man after my own heart. I only plan to do these jobs once (that providing I don't stuff anything up) and as such if possible I don't want to create one off tools if there is a 95% solution out there that only takes 5% of the time to create and set up.
I did read your thread regarding the use of a broom stick rather than a machined mandrel for removing and inserting the main swivel pin. I wish you had taken some photos of that one.
I have been busy reading all the threads related to the removal and installation of the pin and to be honest I am a little worried that I am not going to cock something up. We will see. Will detail whatever happens for your enjoyment....
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You should change all the rubbers shown in previous pictures by new ones: they are not that expensive, they will be a big part of your car's ride quality and they will be a lot of work again if you need to replace them at a later stage. If you need to save some money, do it on what does not require dropping the rear axle, like wheel bearings, wheel seals etc.
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Back in the blaster. What an unpleasant job! Just happy I went to the additional effort of getting all the steel as clean as possible beforehand. All up I was on my feet for 3 hours. At the same time I also did all the nuts and bolts. Dropped these off a the platers and on the way home stopped for yet more supplies. Two more liters of cavity wax for the rear rails and the cavity between the back of the boot and the rear sheet metal. Four more liters of grease and wax remover. Another Q bond repair kit for the broken air vent which broke a couple of days ago. Four liters of stain 2k and matching hardener. 1 liter of POR15 metal ready and more mixing cups. I have an contra agreement with the paint guy and got quite a bit of this free for spending an hour or so fixing up his computer. All along I was itching to get home and get on with the paint.
Prepped all the bare steel with POR15 metal ready, masked up and blew three coats of the epoxy etch. Big day.. very tired.
Was going to get into the breakdown of the main diff swivel arm pin but just ran out of time.
Will give the paint two days to cure and hit it with the satin. Feel good to start breaking the back of the 'diff parts pile'. Still alot to do.
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More photos
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The Chosen One
My good mate Rodger came over today just for a look at diff with view to tackle the potentially difficult task of stripping the pivot pin. One thing led to another and we couldn't resist 'starting' the job just to get a feel for if the pin would move or not. ]
The tapered locking pin literally came out with no more than four or five light taps with a hammer. No damage to pin or thread.
Loosened all the clamps holding the main rubber bush.
Screwed the main end bolt in as far as we could leaving about 2-3mm of thread free. Thinking here was to give us as much surface area to prevent the internal thread from being damaged.
Gave the bolt a moderate thunk and watched as the pin moved through the bush and diff casing. Almost couldn't believe after all the horror stories I have been reading about that the pin moved so easily.
Given it was on the move we simply used a 8 inch bar as a drift to push the pin through. Once it cleared the rubber bush it was loose enough to retract by hand.
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Andy,
Check the internal sliding sleeve ( the half shaft slides into it ) in the u/j they do crack.
The bolt that holds the u/j in has a habit of coming loose, now is a good time to check, if you opt to remove it and refit the bolt with Loctite go easy with the amount you use.
Eric.
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The Chosen One 2
After we pulled out the pin everything pretty much well just fell away. I released the two clamps on the rubber boot and the entire half shaft came away quite easily. I needed a light tap to release the half shaft off the spine. Once the half shaft was pulled out the support arm was able to be removed. Once off the diff I knocked out the very tired looking rubber bush which was causing all the slop in my previous video. Definitely needed replacing.
With the main swing arm off the diff we retreated from the driveway to the garage benchtop to further investigate the bronze bushes for wear. After giving everything a rag off we fitted the swing arm pin with the spacers and reinserted it into its natural location in the swing arm in order to get an idea of how much wear and slop is present.
To our delight there was no perceivable movement for end to end of the pin. Everything seemed quite snug indeed. I was feeling very smug at this point.
Rodger cast his trained eye over all the mating surfaces and confirmed that the pin, bronze bushes and spacer tubes were all in very good condition. I might consider replacing the spacer tubes if they are cheap enough.
I have sourced all new rubber here in Auckland and will pick this up over the next couple of days so I can proceed with the rebuild.
I have to now figure out how to test the wheel bearings. Suppose I just strip the axel to do this.
Going to bed tonight with a smile on my face feeling very very lucky. Think I have dodged a bullet.
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Cheers Eric, when I get more time I will pull the boot off completely and check this out as well.
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Worked more on my diff components in the past couple of days. Finished off the first batch of painting and also picked up the springs from the bead blaster.
Also went to work on the remaining diff carcass and pulled apart the entire swing arm ready for stripping and painting.
Will do the same to the other side on the weekend and get stuck into stripping the main diff assembly. Will have to rely on paint stripper and manual means to prep it for paint as I cant fit it in the bead blaster.
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Andy,
You ask about removing the wheel bearing from the drive shaft. I use the device you see in the picture, but the two upright bolts (w hex head) are replaced with two M10 threaded rods in length needed (some 700mm). To conveniently remove (and later re-mount) the ring nut one can use a special spanner with a hook, shown in the other picture.
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Hans, thanks for those pics. The puller looks fantastic and I wish I had one. Certainly would make it easy. I am wondering if I just used the backing plate, which is fairly sturdy, to hammer off the bearing. Think if I held the plate and wacked the end of the shaft on a wooden block that the force might just discharge the bearing. Has anyone else tried this. The last thing I want to do is cause any damage!
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Andy,
I think I posted the link to the rear wheel bearing tour. If you want to minimise on the purchase of new tools and for speed, I'd strongly recommend following Joe A's very (very) simple process of removing the bearing, which requires the use of a decent block of wood.
I've done this about a dozen times on different 113s and it has always worked. Some take a few more bashes on the wood than others, but they always come off in the end.
You can speed up the process through liberal application a day before of something like plus gas.
James
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Hi Andy,
I did the same job and I wanted to save the bearing if salvageable, so I made the tool in the photos. Notice that the horizontal lower strips are notched to clear the outer race. Otherwise, the force would have gone through the balls and maybe damaged the balls or races.
The bearing can be tested by lightly clamping the bearing in a vise with the shaft installed and spinning the shaft. The vise tightens the bearing on the shaft and makes any internal flaws audible when the shaft is spun.
Mine was still good and when cleaned with solvent and repacked was like new.
Good luck.
Tom Kizer
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Hi James and Tom, thank you both so much for your suggestions. I am going out this morning to work on it again. Tom your puller looks magnificent. I am sure you made it yourself as well. A true engineer! I don't think I am even capable of making something from scratch to this standard. Would probably take me days! How long did it take you to create.
I find it fascinating in here how many different opinions and techniques there are on the same topics. I have just spent all night reading up in here on the multitudes of opinions on ride height. My car has far to much negative camber.
Being an engineer of sorts (software) I understand the desire to do things the right way and from a technical perspective. At the same time my impatient side just wants to get on with the job and do it as quickly as possible. I have been caught out by these impulses on a number of occasions with this car and have destroyed parts etc. But when the shortcuts come off their is just something so satisfying about the time and cost savings.
I am thinking I will give JA's wood technique a wirl without putting too much force. If it work all good but if I get to the point where I am uncomfortable with the force involved damaging the bearing I will pull the pin and revert to Toms technique.
Tom if I fail miserably and destroy my expensive bearing I will be the first one to be laughing at myself for ignoring your advice. Feel free to rub it in if it all goes terribly wrong ;)
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Joe's technique will work, but you need to commit to it! ;D
Spray it up 24h beforehand. Good luck.
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Guys, one a piece. The swing arm side was a piece of cake. No problems with the large retaining nut that hold the bearing in place. Joes technique then took about 15 blows and the bearing came clear.
The other side however was a different kettle of fish all together. The retaining nut was incredibly tight. I had to pretty much well destroy it to get it off. I have my suspicions the previous owner had attempted the bearing and seal replacement before as the car came with all new axle seals and suspiciously only one new retaining nut and lock plate. mmmmmmmm
Anyway after using a combination of heat and brute force the nut came free. But as suspected the excessive force used to do this nut up also meant the the bearing was also ridiculously tight. I am wondering if the axle shaft has a slight taper on it to wedge the bearing?
I must have employed Joe's technique 50 times before I gave up. I will soak it overnight but still think its simply too tight and I will eating humble pie and reverting to Tom's technique or just take it down the road to someone with a proper press.
In any event progress has been made. I have started paint stripping all the remaining parts.
One other point I would like to raise in here is the metal to metal seal between the fixed axel tube and the diff itself. I have not seen much written about it in here and yet I know of two guys in New Zealand who have had to reseal it after being diagnosed as the source of driveway puddles.
In my mind I am only 8 bolts away from having this off as well so may as well go the extra distance and reseal it with the best paperless sealant I can lay my hands on. Probably 3bond or Wurth??
Additionally it would also mean I could take the tube into the bead. Cant wait to turn the corner on this one and start to put back together all the painted and fresh components. I would rate the rear diff as one of the most challenging jobs that I have tackled thus far. You guys and 113.org have however helped me immensely. Thanks
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Sneaked out this evening to do a bit more work on the diff. Decided to break the diff right down and take the final axle tube off for painting and resealing. Now glad I did.
All parts other than the remaining backing plate are now ready for the blaster. Will see if I can sneak out.
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You should take the U-joint out so as to be able to get the diff carrier out. Then you want to check if the pins retaining the smaller diff pinions has some play in the carrier. You my also want to take the sliding sleeve out of the U-joint to check if it is not cracked.
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Got to work on the diff casing this morning. Used a steel brush on the angle grinder to bring everything back to fresh steel. Prepped up with metal ready. Interesting exposing the factory markings. Thin this diff is the one this car came out of the family with.
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Took the rest of the bits and pieces into the bead blaster. Showed up a few issues with the tubes. A few cracks that needed welding. The mig made quick work of it and after some good prep blew the base coat. Will leave it all to cure for a couple of days before finishing off with a lashing of satin black. Should look good! Just need to sort out all the mechanical s now.
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Thanks for posting that radio clip.
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Blew the final satin coat on all my diff bits tonight. Will put up some pics if I get some more time. I did also start looking ahead to finishing off the interior as well. I managed to paint strip all the latches that hold down the soft top hatch. They were hand brushed with some terrible satin black when I got the car. Obviously not the work of the guys at the factory. I paint stripped them and discovered the finish on the bits looks like a black anodized finish. I can get this done again but need to know if my observations are correct. I was just going to get them gold pacifated.
Just also been reviewing the 'holy grail' car on the motoring investments site (http://www.motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm) and have noted that its gear bears the same finish. Have been doing some digging and I can have the gear anodized for 60 dollar which seems to be the minimum charge. Given its only these three components I am struggling to see the value. I could almost chuck them back in as is or blow a very fine coat of satin black 2k. mmmm. I wonder if the wife would notice the 60 dollars coming out of the account ::)
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Some more photos of the complete parts. Just need to sort out that last axle shaft and backing plate and I will be putting stuff back together. Off this morning to pick up all the rubber
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Picked up this morning all the parts I need to put my diff back together. A full set of rubber. Some of its OEM and some reproduction.
Also dropped of another load of stuff to the electroplaters today and picked up about 50% of the fasteners required to get going. Another couple of days and I will have everything.
Stopped into Wurth on the way home and asked them what the best possible product they had for sealing diff casings. I certainly dont want to be doing it again so told them that money was no object. Just give me the best!
They recommended DP300 which is a flexible sealant specifically designed for metal to metal diff, gearbox and engine casings. Cost 40NZD for a small tube, which is a small price to pay for a properly sealed diff. I think it will be just the trick.
Also inquired about bearing locking compound to make sure the bearing are seated firmly and dont spin in their housings. Small tube is 80NZD which is much more than I want to pay for two bearings. Tube would probably do 500 bearings. Will ask around and see if anyone has any they can lend me before I open the wallet.
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A good before and after shot.
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I've seen "Megi" on genuine Mercedes rubber so I think that diff carrier mount is genuine or at least OEM (sure does look like Mepi though).
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Dave perhaps Mepi have ripped off Megi!! Wouldn't that be one for the books!
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Hi Andy re bearing locking compounds, Loctite "Bearing Mount 620" looks ok on the Tech Spec or Loctite "Press Fit Repair 660" for wide open spaces (up to 0.020 OD")., Wallace Heron (local engineeering supplies should have in stock. I would have thought price would be $20 - $30. let me know what you want to do re LH axle bearing.
cheers
Rodger
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Cheers Rodger, I think I will take that advice. Wurth is good stuff but probably not that much more superior to Loctite. If that stuff is only 30 then 15 a bearing is much more bearable!
Think I will also try and put in some mechanical interference as well to be sure. Will try and get onto the bearing tomorrow. Thanks for the support and help.
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Dave perhaps Mepi have ripped off Megi!! Wouldn't that be one for the books!
No Andy, Mepi ripped off Mahle... ;D .. Not true!!!
Mepi (Metalurgica y Pistones) is an Uruguayan company that was started by Mahle but is now independent: http://www.bizearch.com/company/Mepi_Pistones_305167.htm
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Alfred, thanks for that. Have you ever used Mepi parts? I would rather just pay the extra if anyone has had bad experience with them. I think its just the big boot rubber mount that Mepi. The main swing arm bush doesn't have any marking on it at all so I just don't know about that one. I thought I genuine merc part always bore a star and part number.
The swing arm bushes are all genuine by the looks so all good to go on that front.
I could be getting obsessed about genuine gear. The car is likely to only do very limited km's for the foreseeable future so probably not a horrendous issue if I put in a aftermarket part that will only last 60% of the OEM equivalent.
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Have had a sick little girl at home for the past couple of day so have been somewhat distracted. Managed to get her to go to sleep this afternoon and slipped out for a bit of 'tool making' to keep my mind active and my sanity intact.
Decided to copy the compression tool I saw in here for doing the job. Was quite simple to construct and made entirely out of discarded suspension parts I have just taken out of the car. So an all Mercedes affair which I think is really neat.
Compressing the rubber was a breeze and the large nut I welded on the back of the tools backing plate made clamping the rod in vice vertically very useful feature.
Using lots of talc helped a lot. Just out of interest I tried the first one with none and early on in the compression you can see the rubber start to bite and balloon. If you want them in nice and easy don't be shy with the stuff. The wife however may kill me when she discovers I used half of her very expensive bottle. The 230's rear end will definitely be smelling good as a result.
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Finished up the arms by fitting the remaining rubber and the spring plates. Just not quite so sure about the big bolts as they have some quite deep gouges where previous owners have attacked them with cold chisels in an attempt to get them off. I used the rattle gun which made very quick work of them. Not sure how much torque is required to refit but will deal with this next week when I finalize the rebuild. Think now I just about have everything to finish up. Waiting on the next lot of nuts and bolts at the platers and I should be good to go.
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That's a great job you've done there, Andy. Looks amazing.
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Cheers James, your posts were a great help to me. Thanks :)
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Andy,
While you are sleeping, I've left you this note. The torques are from the BBB.
Shouldered castle nuts or hexagon nuts for
fastening torque arms to chassis base panel
(front of trailing arms to cone studs welded to
the floor pan)..........................10 meter-kilogram or
72 pounds-feet or
98 newton-meters
Hexagon screws for fastening torque arm to axle tube
(those four monster 36 mm hex fasteners for the rear
of the trailing arms)................20 meter-kilogram or
144 pounds feet or
196 newton-meters
Be careful torquing those big bolts. They have dangerously thin hexes when you are torquing them.
Tom Kizer
Quebec, Canada
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I had to cut down to nearly nothing - literally the thickness of the bolt head - a 36mm socket to torque them up. FT will do, I think. You'll struggle to get a torque wrench in there.
I also have a ground down 36mm ring spanner from the same task, none of which are any good to you, I'm afraid, but it may be useful info before you dive into the task and find you need to 'amend' some tools.
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James, my 230SL LHD is about the same age as yours, so I too had the brake shoe pivot pin brackets to deal with. I was able to cut a 36 mm socket down to 54 mm long and use it with my thin-head torque wrench, but I had to use a jack stand to support the socket at the wrench end of the socket to keep it from twisting off the hex. I also used a tapered wood shim between the wrench head and the pivot pin bracket to keep the socket well engaged with the hex during torquing. I don't remember what I did on the inboard side of the trailing arm to keep the socket engaged. I think I just used one hand to hold the socket and one to torque the wrench. I just remember that it was a pita and scary.
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Happy memories, indeed. The only 3/4" drive torque wrench I had (which is for use on tanks, so not delicate) wouldn't fit. I recall we cut down a socket and did one side FT, then went to do the other only to find it had even less clearance. >:(
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I dont get why they have to be so tight!!! Whoever put mine on last time didn't do them up to James's 'FT' spec. They came off with a spanner! I think whoever rebuilt it last didn't have the torque settings and guessed.
Given that they are retained/locked with the locking tab what is the risk that they are going to come loose? Am I missing something. My setup seemed perfectly fine when I took it apart with no signs of excessive slop etc. Is it possible the mercedes engineers just were a bit too paranoid??? Also what is the deal with the combination of having such a high torque setting with such a thin bolt head. That just seem like a ridiculous oversight dont you think.
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Andy,
I agree completely. Provided that you manage to get the rubber to compress sufficiently to have some resistance/ensure there's no play, you'll be fine I would have thought. If you over do it, as I have found, the pressure on the bushes has to go somewhere when you put the weight back on the suspension. If you're unlukcy, or have used lubricant to fit the parts, the bushes can pop out unevenly, which means you have to start over again.
JH
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The next question is do I try and tighten these up when the diff is out of the car or wait until its back in and use the weight of the car. To be honest I would be terrified I might pull the car off the axle stands with that amount of torque.
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.../... tighten these up when the diff is .../... in; and use the weight of the car../...
This is vital. Mount parts onto car, lower the car onto its wheels and make sure to roll it in the workshop say 10-20 metres back and forth again. This will allow rubber parts to settle correctly. Then torque. If you torque mounts for the chassis rubber parts when suspension is hanging, the life expectancy of these parts as well as your ride comfort will suffer severely! This is also true for the drive shaft intermediate mount. All well explained in the factory workshop literature.
/Hans in Sweden
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Hans, that does make sense. If the rubber isn't in it equilibrium/normally loaded position when torqued it would be twisted and loaded to hell in normal driving conditions. Do you have to jack the diff and swing arm into normal position before tightening. I can imagine if the car were in the air with all the suspension lowered it could cause all sorts of issues as well.
Hans do you have an explanation to why these bushes need so much initial load on them?
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.../... Hans do you have an explanation to why these bushes need so much initial load on them?
Well, the car weighs quite a lot, and when travelling at speed [as you know the W113 is rated to run 200 km/h] and the wheels hit a bump or a hole in the tarmac - the forces are tremendous.
Like for a fourfold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of sixteen. The kinetic energy (KE) is dependent upon the square of the speed.
KE = 0.5 • m • v2
Thus, things need to be sturdy, and positively fastened.
Over the years, I have learned never to second guess the factory engineers... if it is there, it is for a reason!
Of course, as discussed in our Forum before, all the design solutions on our M-B cars are not ideal. There may have been restrictions due to production procedures, materials available, cost/benefit etc.
/Hans in Sweden
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Have just spent the last couple of hours reading the triple B manual. Very German! I am a bit 'sectioned 34/6'ed out if you know what I mean.
To change the topic to something completely non technical just for a while, today I decided to attempt to trace the history of the car. In New Zealand up until a few years ago all cars came with ownership papers, a chronological history of who owned the car, odometer at change over, address and date of change of owner ship. These papers were all hand written and passed from owner to owner with a central government body making the changes when sent the change of ownership along with the registration papers were supplied. I used to love pawing over the history.
A few years back with the PC world we lived in the privacy laws all changed. Confidentiality became the flavor of the day. The scheme was scrapped and all this history was lost. I don't know about you guys but I think in an era where most people put up all sorts of outrageous details about themselves daily on facebook, that not being able to know who owned my car in 1964 seems a tad out of proportion.
The central government agencies still hold this data but wont give it out without a special reason. Today I wrote a long pleading novel and paid my 15 dollar application fee to try and figure out a bit more of the history of my little 230.
The previous owner was not a car buff and had long discarded all the papers. He told me very little of the history and after money was exchanged didn't respond to any of my emails.
I found out last year through a chance discussion with a staff member of a prominent Mercedes dealership that my car was the first ever 113 to be imported new into New Zealand. I also found out latter on that he had been wrapped over the knuckles for even giving out this information. Never could figure out why as it was fairly generic. I did write to the general manager and ask for the details of the original owner etc. Never got any sort of reply.
It would be fantastic to see where in New Zealand it has been driven and who owned it. Will let you know where I get too with this one. The application has to be answered in ten days. Not holding my breath.
She is still a mystery to me.
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Equally off topic, the 40,000th viewer of this thread was me!
(But in order to preserve my right privacy, I demand that this information be classified immediately).
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James, I cant do anything about your post being removed. You are going to have to fill out a Sl113 in triplicate, pay Peter E a 35 euro processing fee and wait ten days like the rest of us. More than likely he will have to take it to the board for a vote. Get with the programme.
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I have been working with Rodger on the refit of the rear axle bearings. We have have a bit of a puzzle on our hands. The width of the bearing is less than the width of the surface on it runs on on the axle. How do you know exactly where on the axle the bearing should run.
We can see from the wear marks on the axle where it has been running. The position has us a bit flummoxed as it would seem that there is reasonable gap between the bearing surface and the stepped washer the grooved nut locks up against. We cannot understand why there would be a gap between the two.
Given that the grooved nut has a tightening torque of 200Nm I am at a loss to understand what this force is actually clamping. Is it up against the end of the thread travel?
Can anyone shed some light here. I will be back on the BBB to see if there are any clues as well.
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Andy,
as a matter a fact I did this job just today. First make sure on the right axle you use the self alining bearing and on the left axle the standard bearing.
But there is another easy fix to do. The ring between the nut and the bearing is a bit too small inside. That way it stops to early before touching the bearing. So the inner diameter should be made app. 0,2 mm bigger. Do not do away the flat zone, since that keeps the ring from turning. But you should make the ring slightly bigger inside and then it will go all the way to the bearing and the nut can follow.
Another question: for a problem I have, I see you have an 230 sl as well. How many teeth has the spline of your right axle: 25 or 27 ? and what is the outside diameter app. there? And is there a partnumber somewhere on that axle?
best regards, Rudy
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Hi Andy,
Something looks fishy in your photo. All the BBB cross-sections show that the shaft journal is shorter than the inner race of the bearing, although all the bearings shown in the BBB are left axle shaft bearings. The BBB does not show a cutaway of the right axle shaft bearing. Your bearing is obviously the correct bearing because I can see that the spherical rollers are cocked in your photo, making them visible from an edge view. If you look at the closeup photo that I posted in reply 841 on page 34, you can see that the shaft bearing journal does not protrude beyond the inner race as yours does. That bearing puller that I show had not yet moved the bearing on the shaft. The flatted "inner race clamping washer/nut locking plate" in intended to clamp the inner race only to keep it from spinning when the nut is tightened. The bearing must be seated firmly against the end of the journal. Your confusion is logical. It looks to me as if your axle shaft is not correct. It certainly does not look like those in the BBB or the one in my 67 230SL. If your bearing was not seated because the clamping washer and nut could not be tightened against the bearing inner race, that would explain also why there are wear marks on the journal. I would think that the inner race has been rotating relative to the shaft. A definite no-no. On the other hand, that would permit the axle shaft to plunge in and out by the length of that gap that you identified. The axle position would be maintained only by the "press fit" of the inner race on the shaft. Scary. Maybe the axle shaft has been changed in the past? Maybe it's time for an expert Mercedes mechanic to provide an opinion to end my speculation and your worries. Joe Alexander? Dan Caron? Anybody else who would know?
Tom Kizer
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Hi Tom, if i can step in here, we agree the axle journal shouldn't protrude beyond the bearing, however when I went back to your post 841 (neat puller by the way) respectfully, I think I can see the axle journal protruding a good 3mm beyond the bearing on your photo too? I have attached a photo pf the LH axle after I pulled the bearing off that and you can see that that the axle journal is at least 3mm longer than the deep row bearing here too. The bearing was certainly not loose on the axle journal, and the replacement bearing Andy bought is the same width. Easing the inner diameter of the lock washer as Rodolfo suggests is good but only takes up about 1mm. Your call for some the the site experts to comment is approriate.
cheers
Rodger
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Adjusting the ring inside diameter for about 0,2 mm will solve it, since I did exactly the same this afternoon on my 230 sl. For sure: the ring gets stuck otherwise on the thread. After adjusting it will slide much further. And the nut will follow then.
Rudy
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Hey guys thanks for all the info on this. We certainly have a few angles of attack now. I still am struggling to understand what the bolt torques up against. Is it the bearing or the slight shoulder on the axle. See photo.
Rudy if you axle is still out of the car is there any way you can accurately measure the width of the journal in question. I would like to eliminate Toms suggestion that it may be the wrong shaft. Thanks for that suggestion Tom I will be scouring the shaft today for part numbers.
In any event this particular topic doesn't appear to have been discussed in here before. I think its worthy of further investigation and explanation and will most definitely benefit anyone else who encounters the same issue.
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You really should make the rings inside diameter slightly bigger, then it will go against the bearing and the nut will follow.A try would do no harm,isn't?
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Hey Rudy, I think we will do that today and take another look. I think I will also try without the locking tab and tighten the nut up by hand and observe.
The part number on the shaft in question is 1103571501
I almost had a heart attack when I googled it as it would seem you couldn't secure a new one for any less than about 2000 US.
I couldn't see any reference to this part being from a 113 let alone an SL. Is the left and right hand shaft the same part? I just dunno. Above my pay scale. Perhaps someone with access to EPC might be able to tell.
I am open to be told that I have the wrong parts even if it means gouging out my left kidney to pay for it. Guess I am just in it head deep now and just want to put my baby back together the way her creators intended.
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How many teeth has the spline of the axle: 25 or 27 ?
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Rudy,
Logically I have ruled out the teeth on the spline issue. Feel free to correct me if my logic is wrong here but I have identified that the diff I have now was the one shipped from the factory as the numbers all match. So if this is the case wouldn't it be an impossibility to fit a shaft with the incorrect number of teeth on the spine. The only way that this could occur is if someone has also swapped out the mating sleeve in the diff?
I will when I get my sorry ass out of bed go and do the count. I only have the left axle at the moment. Rodger has my right one as he is looking at the bearing issue.
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Andy, I understand.But it is for information I need,see my problem in :problems with refurbishing rear axle and swapping from 4,08 to 3.25.It is a coincidence we are at the same parts busy. I have a new slider which doesn' t fit my axle.Now I don't know what is correct .We are helping each other ;-)
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The parts book edition B of Nov 1964 has the axles as 110 357 11 01 (left) and 110 357 12 01 (right).
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1103571501 is apparently for a W113 axle also but starts at 042-010453.
Here is the Chiltons cross section drawing showing the relationship among the shaft journal, bearing, clamping washer and nut. I made it as high resolution as I thought it needed to be. It's the left axle however. The right axle isn't shown in the BBB either. This is really an excerpted BBB sketch.
Tom Kizer
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You can see on the on the drawing that the secret sits in getting the ring further on.So make it a bit bigger inside.Wish I found my problem with the refurbishing of 4.08 to 3.25 as well.:-(
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Hey Rudy,
Have had an interesting day. Your comments were right on the ball. We have had a little confusion over the slotted nut. The car came with a brand new nut and new locking tab which I supplied Rodger with. He has discovered the profile is slightly different to the nut that came off and does not have the same depth of relief cut into it allowing it to slip over the journal. One bit of confusion I generated out the way. Good spotting Rodger.
Even with this aside and working with the old nut Rodger has made some accurate measurements and has determined that once the nut is done up hand tight with the lock washer on the bridging gap is 2mm less the the thickness of the bearing. So we can tighten up against the bearing as you would expect.
However I still think 2mm is a tiny amount of thread to work with and if things went wrong you might not know if you were torquing the nut against the bearing or the shoulder. Guess you could always put in a second washer if required.
Thanks for everyone's help on this. I certainly have appreciated the support.
Also just discovered today that I need another backing plate at the grease seal cavity is out of round and has had previous poor attempts at repair. New plates are only 120 dollars which surprised me as it quite a sizable and heavy component. Just have to sit around and wait for one now. Was really looking forward to putting everything back together this week.
Rudy, took a picture of the spine for you as well. I started to count them but got dizzy so will leave this for you. I quite like the photo though.
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Don't use two washers, you could have the nut touching the inner sealing then.I am glad I could help.
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Your spline has 25 teeth ,like mine.Is the outside diameter there app.27.3 mm?
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Rodger has just finished making this little beauty on his lathe. All that I need now is a finished diff to put back in.
Just wondering if I should assemble the axles and reinstall before or after the diff goes in. I think the reduced weight of not having the shafts in place would make the installation easier. Anyone else have any thoughts on this.
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I had enough trouble getting the axle on the car on my own without the additional significant weight of the axle halves. I would leave the out. It would also mean you don't need to worry about scratching other stuff when manoeuvring it around. Just don't tighten on anything until it's all together and under load, as has been discussed.
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More Rust Prevention
I am going to do the final fit up of the interior this week so it was on my to do list to finish off the rust proofing this weekend. I sprayed a further 2 liters of it into almost every nook and cranny. Some of the more susceptible areas, like the sill, have been re coated today as well. I poured 1 liter into sill a few weeks back which now fully cured.
Started on the rear tail light section. I really wanted to concentrate on this as I have seen so many photos of this panel full of rust. Put more than half a liter in here alone. A lot of it ended up on the floor after seeping through the panel margins. But this is exactly what I wanted. No point being mean with the wax when its only 20 dollars a bottle, would rather have the piece of mind that the wax has gone everywhere.
Moved into coating the two rear wheel arches from inside of the boot. Then stripped out the rear of the interior to gain access the rest of this panel and the B pillar. The cavity wax is really quite viscous so if you want a good thick coating on vertical panels you have to be patient and apply it in layers over a couple of hours.
After these I went under the car and doused the rear rails and also shock towers. Moved on to the inner front guards and rails then finished up with the fresh air vents and front nose cone.
Quite a dirty job. I will be cleaning the garage floor for the next couple of days with continuous dripping.
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More Rust Prevention
More photos
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Rudy, measured up my rear fixed axle shaft this arvo for you. Is that same size as yours. Hope this helps.
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I did some fishing on the internet last night for the new rear backing plate for the axle. I found a couple of joints in the states that could supply me one. Emailed first and asked if they had one in stock. I didn't here back so I woke up in the middle of the night and spoke to them. I need this part to put the diff back together so cant afford any delay which is why I went to this trouble. I explained all this to the kind gentlemen. The company was joint called ESC Tuning who I have never heard of before.
Was told it was in stock and would ship in one to two days. I paid for the part and shipping via paypal within ten minutes.
Four hours latter received an email notifying me that it will be between 3-5 weeks until ESC has the part let alone the shipping time back half way across the world to me. Seems that they didn't have it after all.
Frustrating. Probably will get a refund and seek the part elsewhere. Anyone have any idea who might have one in stock.
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If you still need any info... I came across this in an old workshop manual.
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Andy,
Thanks a lot for the measurement. I can use that info, Glad we helped each other. That is really where this great forum is about, Rudy
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Thanks Bill, thats really kind of you to supply that breakdown.
Things have move on somewhat. ECS Tuning have come back and refused to tell me who is supplying them with their parts and have told me quote 'That part is shown in the system as being on Back Order. There are no alternative parts to order for it. Considering it is for an older Mercedes it may be months before we would receive the part."
I have told them to refund my money immediately and have politely suggested they change the way they do business. Probably wasted 3 or 4 hours of my time including the initial phone call in the middle of the night. Be careful of these guys if you are looking at buying part off them. Will be interesting to see how quickly or if I get my money back.
Thomas at MBUSA has been fantastic and has put me onto the fact that the backing plate was also used on 220b, 220Sb, 220SEb, 230S also have the same part. 1964-1967. So I am off to a couple of breaking yards in the upcoming days to see what I can find. I am picking the 230s is my best chance here.
Am sure the problem will resolve itself one way or another.
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Starting the assembly of the axle tubes today. Worked on the fixed axle as it by far the simpler of the two to install. All went well. Spent ages cleaning the flanges to ensure the best possible seal. Used wax and grease remover before I applied the sealant to both flanges. I do not want this to leak and have to pull it apart again so hopefully this attention to detail will sort this issue out once and for all.
Applied a very thin smear of bearing grease to the bearing running surface in the tube. I dont know how long it will be before the diff is refilled so this should protect the surface from surface rust.
Before I started the whole process I thoroughly cleaned the inside of the tube. Even though I cleaned out the tube prior to bead blasting there was still residual oil present inside the tube which attracted and soaked up a good layer of blast media. This stuff is not what you want in any internal car part. Would quickly mix with the oil and get transported into moving parts and seals, accelerating any natural wear. I learnt this lesson the hard way with work I had outsourced.
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Also working on the swing arm shaft installation order. I got really really confused when looking at the mercedes parts break down schematics. They just dont have enough details to accurately identify bits and pieces. Also the breakdown I have seems to have more parts than I took off.
In the end I have just applied some common sense looking at what moves and where the grease is suppose to be retained. If anyone thinks I have mucked up the order please sing out.
I also am having problems figuring out the orientation of the main clunk bush in the carrier arm. Its not symmetrical and must go in the carrier arm in a certain way.
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Rodger has done it again and created yet another superb machined tool to help with the axle refit. This time he has put his considerable talent towards creating a tightening tool for the large slotted nut that holds the wheel bearing tight on the axle. The bearing is torqued to 20mkp or around 200nm which is really quite tight. Without the tool I would not be able to achieve this.
He has taken my spare nut and made a mirror image impression on his lathe and then machined out the side relative to where the slots are and then welded in two pieces of square steel that exactly match the slot. After which the new tool has been welded to a long piece of round steel with a large torquing nut welded to the top. Hey presto 200nm here I come.
As soon as I have sourced a new backing plate I will gratefully put this little sucker into use. So once again a big thanks goes out to Rodger and his exceptional engineering talents. As the younger generation often seem to say.. 'You Rock'
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Hi Andy, happy to help, I might need it myself one day. Just to let the rest of the world know I do have more sophisticated vices in my workshop but the old blacksmiths vice in the photo is ideal for all my welding etc.
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Rodger, don't know why your embarrassed about your vice. As the old adage goes its not how big it is, its how you use it! :D
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Decided to proceed with my diff arm refit this morning. Was quite unsure of exactly what I am doing but just needed to push on. I didn't have any special tools to help slide everything but just decided to give it a crack and see where it would take me.
I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was. The biggest issue I had was sliding in and aligning the two copper washers as the rubber o rings obscured them from view all the time. Got around this by hooking up the o rings on the grease nipple. This one simple technique made everything so much easier.
The two coppers washers were slightly different thicknesses. One was 1.85mm and the other 2.15. I spent ages deliberating which one went where and finally decided the thinner one should go on the rear of the diff which effectively tightened up the tolerances between the clunk bush and the either end of its mating surfaces. Dont know if this is correct but at the end of the day we are only talking .3 of a mm so hopefully the diff wont fly apart any sort of catastrophic manner.
I didn't need to replace any of the copper bushes so the pin slid all the way through aided with a thin smear of grease. The central wedge pin which seats up against a machined flat surface on the main pin went strait back in as well.
Another problem which has been thwarting me resolved itself pretty much on it own. The new clunk bush is aftermarket and bore no obvious markings that are present on the OEM parts. I think there are normally the word uben indicating which way up the eccentric bush is aligned.
On the front end of the aftermarket bush there is a strike mark. The first time I saw it I thought it look so much like transport damage or a manufacturer defect that I queried the supplier. He picked up a number of them and confirmed that they all bore the same crude mark.
Once I slipped the central swing arm pin through the clunk bush it all became apparent. This mark lines up with the slot in the swing arm pin and orients the thickest part of the rubber in the bush to lowest position on the car.
All in all a satisfying morning. Just waiting for another final load of plated nuts and bolts and the big reinstall will take place.
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Spent all morning at Startech Enterprises, a parts place here in Auckland specializing in all things Mercedes. I was extracting a backing plate from an early finny rear end to replace my damaged item. Was a bit of a nightmare as I had to work amongst several tightly packed pellets of miscellaneous diff and suspension parts. Of course the pellet I was interested in was slap dab in the middle and my diff of interest was at the bottom.
Took a good hour crouched in all sort of weird positions and the axle slipped out. Certainly helped that I had a bit of practice on my car. I think I am rapidly getting too old to do this sort of stuff. The body is screaming this afternoon.
With the axle on the bench I put Rodgers awesome tools to good use and made quick work of getting the slotted nut off and the bearing pulled off its journal. Quickly degreased the plate, paint stripped and then into the blaster.
Painted up this afternoon. Looking forward to seeing the tail end of this diff. After reading this BBB again last night I suspect I may have to drop the main axle pivot pin and change the orientation of the two brass washers. The BBB makes reference to these washers butting up against the non chamfered edge of the steel tubed that run on the brass bushes. A bit more investigation. Pretty pissed as I have finished setting up and it pretty much ready to be installed.
The joys!
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Decided to tackle my pinion seal prior to putting the diff back in the car. I am also taking the stance that it was probably correct to begin with. Mark and take measurements to put the nut back in the same position. I have read all about how difficult it is to set up if you loose the original setting. Not something I want to entertain at this point.
I have counted the visible threads on the shaft, marked the position of the nut relative to the shaft and measured the depth of the castle cut outs relative to the top of the shaft. Am confident I will get it back within cooee
The old seal was a bit of a mongrel to get off. I eventually collapsed it with a screwdriver carefully hammering the outer lip toward the shaft until the seal imploded.
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I would appreciate some advice about the locking tab cage. When I took the nut off I could not see any form of locking to ensure the nut wouldn't move once nipped up. I am assuming the nut is pinched down on the surrounding thin cage and then the well of the cage is collapsed into the nut castle cutouts after the desired torque is achieved.
If I am wrong on this one I would appreciate if someone could put me right. A good photo of how it is suppose to be would be awesome as well.
Also having problems finding a pipe the right size to push the seal in with. I am picking an socket between 50 to 60mm would do the job. Just cant find something lying around thats the correct size. I did have a very very expensive oversize 3/4 inch drive socket set that went up to 60 or 70mm from memory. I lent out a couple of years ago to a 'friend'. It never came back and I cant remember who I lent it to. Could have done with it this afternoon. Anyone got any good ideas about an improvised tool?
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You need to pinch the nut cage in the slot in the flange visible in the first picture of your post No 633, kind of at 8 o'clock. Your cage has a missing part, seen at 12 o'clock in your first picture above. That means your nut was undone before as that part was pinched in the flange slot before it was cut away when the nut was undone. If the cage is tight with the nut it also means the nut was not put back in its original position as this missing part was not matching the slot in the flange. So taking note of where the nut was is only good to put it back where the previous mechanic put it. Now, did he torque it as per specifications, is your guess.
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Thanks GGR that all makes perfect sense including your comments about the last mechanic.
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Andy,
Regarding installing seals, my best friends are my local hardware store and a scale or calipers. I almost always find a PVC coupling for about a dollar that is the right size to drive in a seal with a block of wood on the opposite end. If there's a shaft in place, sometimes it takes a piece of PVC pipe of the appropriate length. Longer makes it easier to keep it in line with the seal bore too.
Tom Kizer
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Thanks Tom that sounds like a good plan to me. I had never thought of using plastic. I suppose come to think about it not much force is required so it should be fine. Love it. Thanks for the tip.
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I would appreciate some advice about the locking tab cage. When I took the nut off I could not see any form of locking to ensure the nut wouldn't move once nipped up. I am assuming the nut is pinched down on the surrounding thin cage and then the well of the cage is collapsed into the nut castle cutouts after the desired torque is achieved.
If I am wrong on this one I would appreciate if someone could put me right. A good photo of how it is suppose to be would be awesome as well.
Here's an original
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Andy, I made a tool up for this and have it here if you want. Ring me fist to make sure i am home.
cheers
Rodger
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Big Day... pulled apart diff pivot arm pin again and changed the orientation of the two brass washers. Reassembled and then pushed in the new pinion seal. I ended up using a large piece of 60mm pipe. Set up the support arm as per the BBB. Installed the new main hanger rubber bush then decided to haul the diff under the car on an old sleeping bag and try and use the jack to hoist it into position. Had difficulties with the diff falling off the jack and ending up using rope to tie everything in place. With foot pumping the trolly jack after about 4 attempts I managed to get it into the right position and it popped through the main hanger bush in the boot. Got a bit hairy at this point as I had to wedge the diff on the body so I could get out from under the car and put the bolt in. I only had a set of axle jacks holding the whole back of the car up and when I cranked the diff it start to rock a bit... so a bit naughty on my behalf. Dont recommend this practice.
End result was what I am after.. one new sparkly diff in place and ready to receive newly painted axles and backing plates.
I used Rodgers swanky support arm alignment tool. It worked well but if we ever make a mark II I would recommend that the OD of the tool as it butts up to is slightly to narrow as 'stepped lip' is created which tends to roll the edge of the rubber as it starts to get pressed off the tool. I made a couple of subtle modifications to the tool (sorry Rodger promise they are for the better) and with a little bit of plumbers grease both the rubbers located. Couldn't have done it without the tool so a big shout out to Rodger. You should manufacture and sell these little puppies Rodger! There would be hundreds of Mercedes workshops and private owners that could benefit.
So there you have it. One happy punter. The diff has been a really arduous endeavor and physically seeing it back in the car is a huge psychological milestone. Well chuffed.
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That looks a great job Andy, well done. I have not had the dif out on my 230SL and only did a full swap in my 280SL for a 3.69 ratio many years ago. Probably all beyond me now :P
Garry
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Garry I am almost certain the job was beyond me as well. Have no idea how I pulled it off. My body feels like its been pulverized with a huge meat cleaver. I am almost certain this will be the last car I am capable of doing.
Still need to pick up the last load of silver and gold plating and do the final fit up. I am **** scared the large round clamps that hold down the big rubber boot cant be put on 'afterwards' and I will have to pull out the entire diff and pull the main swing arm pin.... again. Imagine that!
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.../... scared the large round clamps that hold down the big rubber boot cant be put on 'afterwards'
You can be assured about putting the clamps on . The present day method is to use 9mm wide band and large type split roll pins, available from M-B or other vendors. You can mount these clamps with ease on your rear axle when assembled.
From factory, the special Beru toggle type clamp hardware S9 N was used. This is no longer in the EPC, and to source it today is somewhat expensive. See this thread, reply #6, 9 and 10
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19920.25 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19920.25)
Picture is below
/Hans in Sweden
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Hey Hans, the bands on it were what it shipped from the factory with. I have restored these. Are you saying I shouldn't put them back on? I can imagine they cause quite a bit of the 'leakage' issues.
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Hans, thanks for the photo. I have the same early Beru toggle clamps. So hopefully this can be pulled apart and hooked over the diff. The BBB specifies that they are put on while your assembling the swing arm. I couldn't find any other reference to them being installed after the event which made me a little nervous as I dont currently have the clips and cant remember exactly how they work. Pretty confident it should be ok. I read your thread about 4 or 5 times during my rebuild. It really helped so thanks :)
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../... I have restored these. Are you saying I shouldn't put them back on?.../...
You determine. Usually the bands are corroded so one puts fresh band metal on, the 5 or 9mm wide bands are bought in rolls so low cost.
See Gemi instruction sketch B for how band is looped
/Hans in Sweden
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Hans, the bands that came off the car were in beautiful condition once I had blasted them. Will put some photos up when they get back from the platers.
In general I have found probably 95% of the old clips to be in really good condition and after blasting and plating you would struggle to pick them as being 'second hand'. I have seen them advertised on ebay for quite a lot of money. I think a complete set for the engine runs at around 150USD which makes blasting and plating quite cost effective. And again the satisfaction of putting original 50 year old parts back into the car really is the cherry on the cake.
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Spent the morning at Rodgers. I was there yesterday pushing my bearings on the wheel shafts but made a bit of a blunder. Put one of the washers on the wrong way around and had to go back this morning and pull the nuts off again. Took the opportunity to mark the washers and cut the lock tabs. Almost impossible to get a punch in without screwing the bearing.
Rodgers new tools made quick work of it and within 20 minutes we had sorted all the issues.
Set about cleaning up the shafts and prepping for the install. I commandeered the wifes kitchen scales to measure out the required 35g of grease to pack the bearings with. Conveniently she wasn't home to give her approval so I made an executive decision to go ahead with the plan.
On way back from Rodgers I also picked up some lock tight bearing lock paste. Happy I got this as the one bearing I recycled was not as tight as I would have liked.
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Used the backing plate to pull the bearings back in. Had to find a couple of longer bolts and grind the sides of them to fit and lock up the back of the lock plate. Worked out really well and easily pulled the bearings back in. Much better that smacking the shaft which would load up the bearings outer race and potentially do some nasty damage.
I also decided to deviate from the BBB install schedule and not put the paper gasket over the end of the shaft during the install. There was too much grease floating around to contaminate the seal so I decided to cut the gasket which let me install it at the last minute. Worked out well I think. Used the Wirth sealant on both sides of the gasket. Probably overkill but I had already paid for it so may as well make use of it. Almost guarantee it would be seeping any grease!
Ended up spending 3 hours installing both shafts. Probably could do it in less than an hour now given my new found knowledge.
After going through this process I still feel that Mercedes got it wrong. After working for years on my BMW 2002's I can honestly say the rear end on the 113 is ridiculously complicated for what it offers. Weak spot of the car?? Interested in everyone's thoughts.
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Is this a vastly superior setup?
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Is this a vastly superior setup?
It is. The swing axle was seen by Mercedes as a sophisticated improvement over the live axle. But when the BMW Neue Klass came out with that rear axle arrangement, Mercedes copied it on the W114/115 chassis. BMW saw that as a confirmation that their rear axle set-up was a great one. I don't remember where I read all that.
I drove a 2002 for many years and I still drive occasionally an E9 3.0 CSI. Their handling feels much more modern compared to any W108/111/113 chassis.
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GGR, cant aruge with that. Also from a maintenance perspective this diff overhaul just seem massively complicated in comparison to a complete overhaul off the 2002 rear end for no advantage. I love the car but to date think that without a doubt the rear end is the weak point.
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Slow day today after one too many cheeky glasses of Merlot with some good friends last night. I worked on the brakes mainly but also fitted up the horizontal diff stabilizing rod.
I tried to refit the beru clamps around the diff boot as well. Ran into problems probably due to my self inflicted diminished mental capacity. Just cant see how these little suckers are suppose to clamp up. There seems to be an arm which is used like a lever to initially tighten up the clamp. Just found the answer to how the clamps work on this link http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=13458.0 thanks Chuck :D
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Hmm ... , do you think it is a good idea working on the brakes with a hangover? ;D
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Dont be so cheeky Alfred! Hangover was more of a slight fog, just enough to put me off my game.... slightly. Have redeemed myself this morning and got both Beru clips firmly nipped up. Will post some more pics tonight. Am getting quite excited as the diff fit out is nearing completion and looking really good. Can start to smell the end now. Gearbox here I come.
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Dont be so cheeky Alfred!
Slow day today after one too many cheeky glasses of Merlot ...
Thanks Andy, that was nice of you putting me at the same level as a Merlot. ::)
"Cheeky", that must have been an Australian plunk and not a Pomerol. ;)
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Alfred, Merlot is my absolute favorite so comparing anything to it is a huge compliment in my eyes. Strangely enough it was an Australian merlot I was drinking. How did you know. Normally I would not admit to this given out friendly trans Tasman rivalry, but seems you have caught me out!
As promised some more pictures to prove that the very temporary effect have long since worn off. I would like to dedicate these pictures to my Australian friends who I begrudgingly admit make a jolly fine red.
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Andy,
Such an admission from a Kiwi. Not one to miss an opportunity but I must admit I am a Merlot drinker and as there are wineries all around our house and it is hard job ensuring they are keeping up to scratch.
That axle is looking really sweet.
Garry
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Also picked up the rear soft top hatch from the upholsterers on Friday. I had taken it to them over a month ago after they offered to do it for 120 dollars. I thought the low price was a good insurance policy to get it just perfect by a professional and also they had the correct 3mm sealed cell foam which I could only get in massive sheets. It took them about three goes at it and they cranked the price up to 300 which I was a bit pissed at. But the result is good. Can now get on with all the chrome on this. Debating if I should re chrome.
P.S It been a good weekend.. the only thing that would really cap it off would be a frank admission from an Australian that New Zealand makes better white wine!
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Are there really people who think Aussies make better white than Kiwis? Who are these folk???
The axle looks amazing. But I have to wish you the very best of luck getting the compensating spring in with the axle mounted. I'd have tackled that **** of a job with the axle on the floor! (It is my nemesis, however, and we have a long, adversarial relationship... :-\)
I would recommend a good Margaret River red before you tackle it. You can't beat raw alcohol content to bring out the unbridled aggression needed to tame the springed beast!!
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Jaime, if you consider only Sauvignon Blanc as a white wine then you have a point.
But if Riesling is the best white wine in the world - as my palate happens to believe - then the Clare Valley Aussies (the Barrys, especially Brian Barry with his Jud's Hill Riesling, and Jeff Grosset) are tops down under.
Perhaps in another 5 years the Greenhoughs in Nelson, NZ will challenge them successfully.
Now back to the axle. Andy, if in the future you want everything else to look as good you might want to keep a 'cheeky" Merlot handy - that thing looks like a piece of jewelry!
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Alfred, you sound like a bit of a connoisseur. After guzzling the first two glasses I couldn't tell the difference in any event. To be honest I don't like white so wouldn't actually have a clue if NZ is better than Aussie more just wanting some sort of admission from one of our long time established friendly foes. Guess this lack of sophistication doesn't lend itself to me owning a beautiful and elegant classic car but I try and make it up by eating lots of blue cheese and supping the occasional glass of port.
Not too worried about the spring. It came out easily with the correct level of compression. Think the trick will be to compress it back to the same point in my vice which shouldn't be too hard. Will keep you posted.
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I will admit that there are some very nice white wines coming out from NZ. Did just say that, what was I thinking......
I have difficulty just getting past the local wineries but as Alfred said, Clare Valley for white and for a really good red, Hunter Valley in NSW.
But like you Andy, I just like them all, any one of the ten wineries with in 2 miles will do.
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Not really a connoisseur Andy, I am just trying to help breathing when necessary. ;)
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I like it Alfred! That's my sort of placard!
Garry, sound like you could have an awesome winery tour. Wouldn't it be amazing doing it in a convoy of 113's driven by trusted sober drivers!
Have been hammering away at the springs all day. Everything is back in now with no real dramas outside a few chips in the powder coating. The central spring is definitely the most challenging but with the right amount of patience and a long bar is sailed right back into place.
Will pick up the kids from school and have a crack at the brakes. That will be fun no doubt.
One thing you guys can assist me with is a bit of reassurance about the swing arm bearing. After I got all the springs back into place decided to rotate each one of the wheel hubs to ensure everything was turning smoothly still. The fixed side spun beautifully but when I went around to the swing arm there was a noticeable 'drag' through about 15 degree's of the rotation. I almost had kittens thinking I would have to pull the shaft again. Cowered in the far corner of my garage on the floor and gently rocked backward and forward for ten minutes while tightly grasping whats left of my already thin crop of hair.
But then after thinking about it I concluded that as the axle was in an extreme extended position that the axle angle would be trying to load up the double race bearing. I jacked up the car until car rose off the jacks simulating how it would normally sit and then tried the rotation exercise again. This time it rotated perfectly with no perceivable drag.
Still a tad concerned but will stop thinking about it if someone can tell me this phenomenon is 'normal behavior'.
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Andy,
If you spin the wheels without any weight on the suspension you do get odd behaviours. I know that from experience. In my case, the odd noises and grumbles also went away when I had the car with weight on the suspension. I think your fine in that respect.
Glad you got the rear spring in ok.
JH
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Cheers James, really happy to have it all back together. A bit of tidy up with some damage to both the paint and the powder coating. I had to use a fair bit of leverage to get it all back together which 'bruised' quite a few bits and pieces. Nothing that a bit of 2k brushed on paint wont hide up.
If I had the perfect tool set you could probably minimize it and also reduce the time by half. I used exactly the same bits and pieces to put all the springs back on as I did to take them off. Was a bit nervous using only a 10mm high tensile thread rod to compress the center compensating spring. But doing up the nut to compress the spring I didn't feel once that the nut was going to slip or give way. If it did I might have been in considerable trouble!
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The spring install took all of 3-4 hours. I moved on to the brake shoe refit. Started off thinking it would be an absolute nightmare but was pleasantly surprised to knock the first one off in about and hour and then the second in about 20 minutes. Still need to adjust the handbrake but need to wait till its all connected through to the handle. Perhaps tomorrow.
I did take dozens of photos during the assembly of the second hub with the intention of putting together a blow by blow install procedure. The BBB has a terrible section and used some elaborate factory tool that just wasn't replicable. Dont know about you guys but half the time I turn to the BBB I end up just walking away and doing a DIY improv.
Need to fill the diff and do the final adjustment of the lateral support arm. I think I am going to use plumb bobs as I cant be bothered making up a tool. I stole the plumb bob idea from someone on this site. Thanks to whoever that was. Will let you know how I get on with that tomorrow.
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It all looks very nice!
To adjust the center strut another method is to put the rear wheels back on and measure the clearance between the inner flank of the tire and the inner wheel well in front of the axle (3 o'clock or 9 o'clock, depending on the side). The distance should be the same with the car on the floor.
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Fitted up the fuel tank today. Satisfying to put in parts I restored almost 18 months ago. Moved onto the fuel lines and the brake line refit.
Tried to wire up the handbrake but have discovered that I have misplaced the special nut that winds onto the end of the cable in the handbrake mechanism. I dont know exactly what it looks like. Anyone got a photo of it. Would be good to know exactly what I am looking for.
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Hope this works
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Another
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Thanks Dave, I honestly dont think I ever had one. Its so distinctive I would have remembered it. Guess I now need to go on another world wide hunt for one. Hopefully they are still available. Are the small holes on the side so you can put in small bar to tighten it. Dont understand why it wasn't just a nut.
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As you know it's the adjuster nut for the tension.
It's a bit "on show "in the footwell and the shape of the base locks the adjustment
So you can't use a normal nut.. if I had a spare I'd send you it..
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I am in the 14 month of a complete rotisserie restoration on my original 1970 280sl and I am not sure if I did the right thing the time and cost got far above my original estimate 2 months to go I hope my son will keep it in good shape for my greatgrandson age 3
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Hi Action J :) Sounds as if you will be well aware of the pain a 113 restoration will inflict! Still I think that you are doing well at 14 months. When I first began I was totally naive and thought I could bang it out in 6-12. Quite a joke between the wife and I now. Well more my joke than hers. Good luck with the completion of yours. I would love to see some photos.
Dave, I went trawling back through my photos for a picture of the handbrake lever before I pulled the car apart. Found this one. I am not sure but assume that the cut out on the forward side of the lever is where the nut sits. If this is the case looking at my photos it would appear that the special nut was never there. Probably the previous owner couldn't be bothered sourcing the correct nut and slammed in a couple from the local hardware store. Would certainly explain why I cant find it.
Would appreciate if someone could post of picture of the nut in situ. Kind of weird asking for you guys to take photos of your nuts... but its for a good cause :o
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Well, nuts to you too!
See attached photo as requested. This is from a 1970 280 SL
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would you believe that that nut is 42 dollars US
thanks Johnny. Just spotted your pic. Guess I need it so will bite the bullet.
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Oh yes, I would definitely believe it!
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I spent the morning deciding on what I should do with my fuel delivery pump. From memory it seemed to work fine when I took the car apart. No starting or stalling issues with the engine running faultlessly. The same old dilemma, do you strip it down and pessimistically assume that due to its age its going to be worn and buggered, or take your chances that it will give another 10 years good service.
I decided that as its easy to remove from the car, should it ever stuff out on me, that I am going to run with the risk.
So masked up all the inlets and outlets and into the bead blaster it went. A quick coat of 2k etch and then a couple of satin. Didn't go down the epoxy track as I wanted to get it in today.
Great pulling out all my new braided fuel pipe and fitting that up as well. Feels like all the prep work from the past couple of years is really built up a good head of steam and the parts are now flying back onto the car.
After I finished off with the fuel pump decided to mount up my restored gear lever. Have had a nice new ivory gear knob sitting on my computer desk just begging to be put back into a more natural environment. Today was the day. Just love the crisp look of it against the black leather and carpet.
Decided while I was on a roll to fit up the remainder of the hard lines. I have come up short on one of the rubber blocks that hold all three pipes. Really frustrating as I have dozens of absolutely mint W108 equivalents. Unfortunately Mercedes decided to run the brake down the middle of the transmission tunnel. Probably better from a safety perspective but definitely a really bad thing from a restoration pilfering exercise. Haven't looked up the part number but am picking it starts with 113.
Last thing to do on the underside it the exhaust. Before I fit up that I need to sort out the long heat shield. Cant find any obvious holes in the foot well. Anyone have a photo of its position.
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...WRe
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Wre that is awesome. I thought it was going to be much further back so you have saved me quite a bit of grief. Looks as if it covers the bolt openings for the gearbox support plate so am guessing this needs to be installed after the gearbox goes back in. Also of interest in your photo is another aluminum plate up the vertical plane of the firewall. Mine did not have this. Am wondering if its a left hand drive thing?
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Just checked my 280 SL, and it does have the vertical aluminum plate (heat shield) as shown in the chassis photo from Wre. It is a LHD car.
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Andy, I looked at my nut this morning to see what is worth $42 bucks plus shipping and I think it could be made with a tap, grinder and a drill bit pretty quickly. Finish off with a buffing wheel - Maybe 1 hour at most. A chunk of brass would look pretty but a piece of stainless stock would probably be closer to stock.
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Thanks Ian, I would have a crack but dont think I have got the skill to pull it off convincingly. I also would have to go out and buy a tap and die set. Will probably do what the previous owner did and put back in a basic stainless steel nut for the time being. Just cant justify the expense at this point.
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Hi Andy, I can make you a handbrake nut as per the original but you will have to wait until I get home again after 1st August.
cheers
Rodger
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Hi,
To me, fabricating this part when you can get the original chromed part over the counter from any MB dealer for a few bucks
Is just NUTS. Its a miracle this piece is even available still for a 50+ year old car.
Just had to get that off my chest.
Hans
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Spent all afternoon fitting up the four pieces of wind lace. They are an absolute mongrel to get right in leather. The small screw that hold the chrome strips down have to penetrate the leather.
If your using MB tex its much easier to puncture the material but leather is a different proposition. I tried several times and ended up cutting small notches out of the leather that allow the screws through but are hidden under the chrome strips.
The lace is also required before the final fitting of the rear panels. So after I mopped up the lace I also had a crack at the two quarter panels. The early 230's had a unique panel that was probably replaced because its such a pain in the ass to fit. None of the screw holes located with the equivalents drilled in the body the first time I tried to fit them. I had to tweak the panels to get everything to fit. Two hours latter the interior refit has moved to the next level. All I need to do now is finish off the stereo install and fit the seats back on the bolted in rails. Probably tackle this over the weekend.
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Andy I'm in the middle of refurbishing my fuel pump and I'm glad I took it apart. The bearings were "cluncky" and the thing was full of 50 years of carbon from the brushes wearing. I bought a brush and bearing kit from one of the guys on here....
check my tumblr link for pics...
http://getsmartpagoda.tumblr.com/
Rgds, Joe
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Joe, the minute mine starts to play up or I have weird issues with the engine I am going to have mine apart quicker than you could say 'jack Russell terrier'
Just far to tired to be pulling apart stuff that has even a theoretical chance of being ok for a few more years.
On another bright note, I got an email today from the LTSA out of the blue. These are the guys who hold all the historic ownership records here in New Zealand. They had previously declined my application for the ownership history of the car but by some weird miracle had reconsidered it. Perhaps they read my blog! They didn't release everything. The name an street address information was withheld if the owner was private. They just substituted the city in this case. But all the business and dealers who have owned the car are there in big neon signs. Thrilled to get a few more pieces of the puzzle. Can at least now see clearly where in New Zealand the little girl has been.
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I understand ...Thats excellent news Andy ! I visited the previous owner of mine recently who owned it for 30 years. Gave me some old pics and the BBB. I can't believe how many changes had been made before he bought in (around 1975 when it was 11 years old) that he didn't know about. Different engine and different softtop @
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Rats and Mice
Before I launch into the gearbox I wanted to clean up a few 'small' job. Started early thinking I would be done by 11am. I should have known better and before I knew it the wife was calling me in for dinner.
I started with the soft top hatch chrome. It took quite some time cleaning and polishing... and debating if the bits need to be rechromed. I still struggle drawing the line on various quality control issues. I spent at least an hour looking and obsessing over small detail. In the end I decided not to mount out the main brass moldings and will seek a couple of quotes on monday to rechrome. These are very prominent and will be an obvious target for anyone critiquing the car.
Moved on to the hatch cable release mechanism. I thought this would be easy but took a good hour to get right. Even now I am not happy the mechanism does not spring back to the latched state without help twisting the chrome handle. I am not sure if I have missed out a spring or not. Any tips on this appreciated. I may strip everything back down and lubricate the cables.
Next moved on to tidy up the boot. A few cable elbow to install and some sound dead material cut into strips to hold down the power cables. During the tidy up I discovered that I have forgot to mount up a earth cable. No surprise given its obscure location that I missed it. All the same I have to strip apart the rear quarter panel to gain access to get the bolt through. A bit of a bugga but just the nature of the restoration beast!
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Moved on to the gearbox this morning. Stripped off all the fixtures and fittings ready for blasting and then plating. My goal with this refurb was just to reseal. I didn't want to break into the box all and assumed the front and rear seals would be easily accessed. Discovered that this is not the case. The front one isn't too bad but have had to split off the bell housing and the front plate to get at it. No drama as I have a complete seal kit.
The rear however is proving to be a real PIA. The slotted nut doesn't want to come off. I dont have the proper tool so was hoping it wouldn't be wound on too tight and might come off with a few 'light tap'. Again not to be. I have dropped all the bolts that hold the ali plate behind it to the gearbox casing so I am no committed to getting it off and resealing. If anyone has any easy methods to get this nut off I would love to here.
I am wondering now that the box is open if its worth doing anything else. Syncro's or bearings. Dont know how hard they would be but my back is already so raw with self inflicted wounds I figure a couple more gashes wont even be noticed. Again any advice would be well received. I can just imagine Rodger rolling his eye back. He told me not to touch the box a couple of weeks back. I should have listened. Blame it on my obsessive compulsive disorder. To make matters worse the front seal looked brand new. I think someone has replaced it recently. But this doesn't necessarily mean that anything else has been touched. Better safe than sorry and replace everything???? This is when its good to have all the last owners receipts.
Also the top ali plate that hold the changing rods, is this hard to pull off. I have the gasket for this and would like to clean it up and seal again. I did some research in here and it looks like JA was going to do a gearbox tour back in 05 but it seems it never happened.
Decided that the failures of the day shouldn't halt progress and took all the bits down to the blaster and then onto the platers. Just have to keep everything moving.
Have decided that the chrome moldings on the soft top hatch look terrible against all the fresh paint so have sent mails to about 5 chrome shops around NZ checking on who has the sharpest price. Will get all the caps done at the same time.
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For the transmission, you need a 4 pin socket like this one (cross-check dimensions though): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pin-Wrench-Socket-Tool-for-Mercedes-differential-/380602132397?hash=item589da7a7ad&item=380602132397&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr Or you can modify a socket to fit.
These transmissions are not that complicated. The way it worked before is a good indicator of what would be needed: was it noisy (bearings)? Were the gears grinding when shifting (synchros)? Also, many of these trans have been filled with gear oil instead of ATF, which may mask the noise. So if that's the case with yours, the way you remember it working may not be a correct estimate of its real condition. When you reseal it don't forget to replace the seal for the speedo cable drive. It is often omitted because there is a ball that needs to be dislodged. But if you omit it, this is where the trans is going to leak from and you will be kicking yourself for not having done it when the trans was easily accessible.
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Thanks GGR, that is excellent advice. I just yesterday drained the oil and it was most definitely not ATF but gear oil. My memory of the box when I drove it last was that all was ok but I here what your saying about thicker oil masking nasty behavior. I am stunned that its suppose to have ATF though. I wonder why they designed it like that? Its now cast a big shadow on the condition of the box in my mind if that's the case.
When I drained the oil I did take particular attention to what came out in the oil. There were the odd flakes of copper in with it but nothing too excessive.
Another really weird thing is that my tool I made for pulling the rear pinion is different. The teeth are to thick and wide to fit into this nut. I sat for a while yesterday wondering if I should just file it down but came to the conclusion that its probably more likely I would use it on a pinion than the gearbox in the upcoming years.
Will keep on persisting with it I guess and probably put the correct oil back in it and just take a punt that all is ok.
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They use ATF because there are needle bearings in there that may end up being starved with thicker oil. Not always the case, but it happened to some group members.
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I ended up making a new tool for getting the nut off. Measure it up and determined I needed a 37mm OD socket. Figured that a 29mm ID socket would be about perfect so trundled off down to the local auto shop with my calipers. Discovered that they only had 28 and 30. Neither would work so I went through all the imperial until I found a perfect size. I got it all the way home to discover that the shaft bottomed out in the socket before I had even contemplated cutting the notches. This would only make matters worse. So back in the car and swore at myself all the way back to the shop. If your going to make one of these make sure it starts off as a long reach socket.
Only took 20 minutes to cut the new tool out of the socket with an angle grinder and a hand file. On the end of the impact driver and with a few second the nut came off closely followed by the back plate. I popped the old seals out and as expected it was also, like the front seal, in pretty damned fine condition.
Spent another 20 or so minutes on the wire brush prepping the body for paint. Will probably do this tomorrow. Took all the bits I had taken off down to the blaster.
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Now all I need to do prior to assembly is sort out the change arm seal and the speedo worm drive spindle seal. Both have me a bit flummoxed at the present.
I cant seem to figure out how either come out. Nothing in the BBB eludes to it either. If anyone cant steer me in the right direction with either of these I would be most grateful.
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.../...the speedo worm drive spindle seal..../...I cant seem to figure out how either come out../...
Among other postings you may find with the "search" function, our very own M-B Doctor (DanC) as well as George Davis have written these useful guidelines:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=6182.msg38737;topicseen#msg38737 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=6182.msg38737;topicseen#msg38737)
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans, that is a very helpful post. Thanks to Dan as well for putting that up. I am pretty bad at picking the correct words for searching on I guess. Or just really buggered and grumpy after working all day with a bad back on stuff I dont really understand.
So sincerely thanks for your help, even these small tip bits are really really useful to me and keep my spirits up. I am incredibly out of my comfort zone with the mechanicals on these old girls so a pat on the back and a steer in the right direction comes as a breath of fresh air from time to time. Hopefully the daily posts have a least some entertainment value to you.
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Hans, any tips on search words for that top seal. I tried 'gear change rod seal' and didn't get far.
I am a bit worried about the speedo seal after reading the post you found. Sounds as if its a mongrel to get out unless you have special gear. My battery drill probably isn't going to cut the mustard!
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You should measure the clearance between the syncros and the pinions with gages. I don't remember what is the lowest acceptable clearance. But basically, the less clearance you have, the earlier the syncros are going to fail. If you can't engage any shim while pushing the syncro onto the pinion, then the syncro is shot.
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Hi Andy,
The shifting shaft 'radial sealing ring' is listed as 006503 04100 (A14 x 26 DIN 6503). I can't see the speedo drive shaft seal listed as a separate part in the book.
But why replace them if they're not leaking?
Interesting that the top case is a 198 (300SL) part.
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Hi Dave, thanks for the part numbers. I have a complete seal kit for the box including these seals. I started off just wanting to reseal the front and back main seal but as I have discovered you have to take apart quite a bit of the box to get to these. So lucky the kit came with all the paper gaskets. I honestly dont know if it was leaking or not. If you go right back to my initial post in this thread a year or so ago I had the delema of not knowing if all the muck in the bell housing was from the transmission or the engine. The engine and the gearbox were dirty so I had a bit of a delema on my hands. The diff leaked on the concrete and also two separate puddles under the bell housing area. Given that the box is out it just seemed prudent to do as much of a careful reseal job as I could. Trust me, if I put it all back together and it still belches oil I will loose sleep. Another member in here has pointed out that the speedo shaft seals also give problems. Makes sense as its quite low down the housing and would get saturated with oil. Not so worried about the top shift shaft seal as it has gravity on its side. But if I can get to it I may as well. The devil you know as they say.
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Was looking forward to putting the gearbox back together this afternoon... but it just wasn't to be.
I phoned ahead to the electroplaters to make sure the nuts and bolts were ready. 'Sitting on my desk'. When I got there, 30 minute drive, discovered the reception lady had mistaken my job with another and mine hadn't in fact even be started. Off to a good start.
Last night I took the new gearbox speedo shaft seal to bed and pondered for a couple of hours how I could get it out of the casting without doing any damage. After studying the seal and the casting I discovered that there is a quite a pronounced steel lip on the front of the seal. You cant get a screwdriver through and on it due to angles not working in your favor through the pins shaft which has a narrower OD by about 4mm.
I thought about pushing something in that might turn and then lock on the lip and then knock it onto the lip with a bolt. Then I came up with the idea of a dynabolt. The only reason I thought of this is that I am currently involved in another project at home bolting down some large gate posts to concrete pads.
The dynabolt would have to be smaller than the pin which is about 8.75mm. The pin spins freely in the shaft so the shaft is probably about 9mm at a guess. The dynabolt needs to also be 80mm long to reach through the ali housing. I initially thought that there would be no way of obtaining such a long bolt given such a small diameter. I was pleasantly surprised this afternoon when I stopped at the hardware store to find a 8mm x 95mm bolt. Absolutely perfect.
Before I started the removal process I used a screwdriver to grind out all the rubber over the lip to give the dynabolt tip maximum surface area to rest on. The bolt slid in and I only had to do the bolt up by hand until I could feel it sitting on the lip of the seal. The bolt was still not even tight enough to prevent it from being slid back in the seal. I was a bit worried if I did it up tightly that it might do some damage. Also if you cranked it up it would only increase the friction between the seal and the housing.
A few taps on the head of the dynabolt and the seal just popped out. I was over the moon... until I inspected the housing. Inside it I found a crack which I followed all the was back out and back along the exterior. I was gutted to say the least. I couldn't figure out how I had done it as I hadn't used any force but just assumed that the light knocking of the seal with the hammer must have loaded it up and done the damage.
The rest of the afternoon has been terrible. I priced a new housing at 400USD and then got on the phone and rang around my second hand sources. Kev at startech went down to his stash of complete boxes and one at a time replied with, damaged, broken house, rooted. He has about 8 boxes and all bar two of them had the same type of damage in the same place. Kev told me that most of them just had huge chunks of the sheath the cable get clamped into sheared off. It must be a weak spot of the box. Am picking that people over tighten the clamp and the housing just gives way.
Anyway I have another one which was a huge relief. Still going to cost me a couple of hundy for the box. My mood got much better after this news. At least I can obtain it tomorrow and get on with the job.
It wasn't until about half an hour ago when I was reviewing my photos that I looked carefully at the very first photo I took with the dynabolt lying on the casing. If you look carefully you can see the external crack. I feel sooooo much better that my method of removal didn't cause the damage. I was really happy with the technique and the second I thought it had damaged the casting I lost all of my mojo.
So the day hasn't been a total write off. I have even wondered if I should just slam the new seal back in and use heaps of sealant to prevent any seeping. But after thinking about it the crack could totally give way leaving the seal useless and also the cable then couldn't be clamped up properly so best I just persevere and fix the problem properly.
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Hi Andy,
I would repair this crack with plastic metal with aluminium, e.g. from Weicon ( www.weicon.com/pages/en/products/adhesive/2c-adhesive/plastic-metal.php). For small repairs as repair stick. It gets hard like steel. Just open the crack a bit and fill it in. It's cheap and it works very well.
...Wolfgang
Video: http://www.classic-car.tv/know-how/werkstatt-gussmetall-reparaturen/
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Hi Wolfgang. Thanks for that suggestion. I thought of repairing it yesterday. Its always an option if the new plate is flawed as well.
If I did repair I would probably grind carefully 3/4 through the wall thickness from the outside and then get it properly tig welded. I would elect to add additional material to the outside shell as well to strengthen it. But the crack on the inside is what worries me. It would be difficult to get a tig rod, or the paste you have suggested, in as its such a confined area. Even if you could you would then have to machine back the surface perfectly as its the mating seal surface. If I leave the inside and only deal with the outside then I would guarantee that oil would track down the crack on the inside and seap.
Just heard back from the classic center this morning. The part is NLA. Given I have access to a good undamaged second hand part for a couple of hundy, I would be crazy not to take up the offer I think. A proper repair would far exceed this cost.
Am heading through this morning to pick up the box and the plated nuts and bolts. I have agreed with Kev I will strip his box down for him and clean up all the parts in exchange for keeping the price of the plate down. So have another full 'gear box' day ahead of me.
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Picked up the new box and plated nuts and bots. Stripped new box and extracted the backing plate. Made quick work of getting the seal out with a new dynabolt. The one I used yesterday was not usable again. The tangs get bent and wont seat that well again. The new seal sailed back in with no issue. The front seal sailed back in with no issue. Then I tried to knock the pin back through the gear. Big mistake. The tolerance between the two is very tight and it take a massive amount of pounding to push the pin through. I ended up knocking the pin right through and staring again. This time heating the gear with a heat gun until it was probably a couple of hundred C. This made the job much much easier. Not doing this cost me at least an hour of grief.
I managed to get the pin back to within .01 of a mm from when it came out. I then took the plate and checked everything was ok by installing the cable up to ensure everything was the right length and seated correctly.
Trying to figure out what the numbers are on my box and if its the original unit that shipped from the factory. On the input shaft of the box there are some numbers that are hand engraved on a polished surface. They don't correspond with any of the numbers on my dog tags. Does anyone know what they are and the significance.
Tomorrow I will torque everything back up and move onto the engine.
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I couldn't sleep last night so got up at 3am and went out into the garage to start the install. I have hit a few issues. The first was getting the shims to sit in the recess in the alloy for long enough to bolt everything up. The are very light and on one of the shaft there are 5 of them that have to be perfectly stacked. If one slips off the stack your starting again. In the end I sandwiched them against the alloy housing with some very thin plastic and then just slipped out the plastic when everything was lined up and bolted in. Worked a treat. The run up to figuring out how to do this cost me two hours of frustration.
The top plate was no issue. I did lightly lubricate the shift mechanism as it had gone quite stiff after I clean it thoroughly washing off all traces of it former lubrication.
Then onto the front plate and bell housing. The steel front plate has a recess cut into it for the front main seal. You have to take the plate off to get access to the seal. Essentially its an internal component which is a bit of a bugger from a maintenance perspective.
Anyway the seal seems to seat with the lip facing outwards which to me seems unusual. I have deduced this from the tell marks on the shaft and the approximate position of the plate.
The problem is how do you knock the seal in with the lip facing you? I am guessing you have to have a tool which has a ID and OD exactly the same size as the seals. Has anyone done this that can steer me in the right direction. I really dont want to bugger the seal at this point as it would put me back considerably until I sourced a new seal.
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HELP ME RHONDA... or at least JA, Stick or Dr Benz or any other gearbox expert
Gearbox is turning into a complete nightmare and I am stressing big time.
Other than the issue outlined below I now have another much more worrying problem. I went to do up the grooved nut on the rear output shaft to around 130nm. Even when I tighten this nut by hand its seem to be loading up the bearings to the point where its barely possible to turn the shafts. Loosen the nut and its all good again. Something is wrong. I am 100% certain that I did everything up in exactly the reverse order so just can understand whats going on. The box is completely dry which wont help things but I would have still expected it to turn freely.
Only having 3 hours sleep last night hasn't helped matters. I would really appreciate some help here. *current status Sinking rather than swimming*
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All parts can't be machined with exactly the same clearance all along production, this is why the shims are there to fine tune clearances. The housing you replaced mat have tighter clearances and may require less shims. Try removing a few and see how it goes. Axial play needs to be according to specs but for sure binding means you don't have enough clearance.
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Hey GGR thanks for your reply, much much appreciated.
Will obliterate the paper gasket getting it all apart I suppose. Guess I will have to somehow make one or buy another entire set.
I dont quite understand why the shims would have a bearing on things. Do they slide the shaft one way or another in the casing? The grooved nut seem to tighten down on the brass worm drive which in turn clamps down on the inner race of the bearing. It seems that no matter how many shims you would either take away or add the nut would always be able to be tightened and load up the bearing. What am I missing. What stops the nut from exerting a **** load of force on the bearing. Does it hit a shoulder on the shaft?
If the clearance is too tight and the shims determined it wouldn't I add them rather than take them away?
Should I try the shims that came with the new housing? If the only thing that determines the number of shims is the housing then this might be logical.
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My experience is with the later side shift models. Though similar, they may not be the same, so I guess you'd better hear from people with direct experience with these trans. Don't take your housing off before diagnosing properly what's going on, especially if you fear to tear the gasket apart. Is the front cover/bellhousing in place? If not try fitting it, it may put pressure on the other side and help a bit.
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GGR,
I had exactly the same thought when I first struck the problem. I have now clamped up the bell housing but havn't put in the front boss as I havn't managed to get the seal in (the other problem). Perhaps this is required to exert the correct and opposite force. Will this potentially move the shaft backward in relation to the position of the bearing and provide the extra clearance?
I suppose I can try bolting on the boss without the seal to see if its the problem. Perhaps your on to something. Will try it and report back. In the mean time have you got any idea how I can get that seal in without stuffing it.
Cheers
Andy
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GGR, that didn't work either. Running out of easy solutions. Either the shims are the problem or I have done something to the box accidentally while it was apart.
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Can you loosen the back housing a bit to see if there is any improvement?
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I can loosen the back housing but it will definitely pull apart the paper seal. I am wondering how much of an impact it has having a completely dry box?
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Went out and decided to half fill the box with ATF to see if the extra lubrication made any difference. It did a little but the lock up issue still present. Festered around for over an hour trying to free it up and then out of frustration decided to wack the end of the input shaft with a brass drift. Immediate result. Knocked the back shaft and then the front shaft a couple more times to settle whatever problem was present. Seems much much better. Still some resistance through the box. Can spin it in any gear with two fingers but definitely feel some resistance. I just have to figure out if this is normal/acceptable. The old box with the rear plate off spins with much less effort. Dont know enough about the workings to know what to expect
Just need to figure out how to get this front seal in. In the absence of any suggestion here I am going to try and head the boss and put the seal in the freezer overnight. A bit of a long shot but will give it a crack and hope it will go in with just finger pressure. Feel free to chime in if you have successfully done this before.
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Andy,
I would suggest that you are trying to fit the seal the wrong way around, just because it came off that way does not make it correct, the previous mechanic could have fitted it incorrectly.
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Hey Eric, that was my first thought as well but the machined surface where the seal runs is only 4-5mm wide before the shaft tapers off toward the engine. If you installed it the other way around it would be running way off where it should on part of the shaft thats considerably narrower. Also I have stripped the front plate off the second gearbox and its seal has been installed in exactly the same orientation.
I have actually just had a good friend of mine around this evening to give me his opinion. He is a factory trained Mercedes mechanic who did his time in the 70 and 80's. Even though he is not a expert on gearboxes he certainly has a much better feel for them than I have and I really respect his opinion on these types of issues.
First up he addressed my concern that the box had more overall internal resistance than the second hand one. His opinion is that it feels almost perfect and pointed out that it could be a cumulative combination of new seals, a lack of lubrication and unsettled gears could well be contributing to the difference. He chuckled when I told him about my fix for the binding rear nut ie the mallet belting the input shaft. He told me that it wasn't the first time he had seen such tactics used to good effect in his time and that more than likely the shaft had been somehow moved on the bearing and need a bit of gentle persuasion to move ti back to where it wanted to be. More than likely after its in the car for a while it would free up considerably. Fingers crossed.
He also agreed with me that the seal goes in the weird orientation. I am going to try and get the seal out from the second box and use it as a tool to drive the new seal in with. Eric have you overhauled one of these before. If you are 100% certain its around the wrong way I will investigate again tomorrow morning. I am open to all suggestions. Take a look at the screen shot below of the parts breakdown.
So the good news is that I am certainly in a better space than 12 hours ago. Really dont want to linger on the gearbox any longer. Its been a week now.
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In my 34 years of automotive engineering, I have never seen a seal that did not have the small end of the rubber seal cone in the direction of the oil that was intended to be retained in the reservoir. That normally means that the flat metal part of the seal is opposite the retained oil reservoir (gearbox). In this case, what makes the installation difficult is that the seal is not installed in the transmission case, where the oil is, but in the end cover. The way you show it is, in my opinion, exactly correct. Installation should require a really thin wall tube or, better yet, the old seal with the rubber removed, butted up against the new seal outer diameter end.
Andy, please remember your front steering idler arm seal installation. The BBB described the reason for the direction of its installation. It was installed so that the grease could escape if too much grease caused the pressure in the "idler arm shaft housing" to get too high as the shaft screwed itself back and forth in the housing. Installing it in the opposite direction would have trapped the pressure in the housing and caused the seal to rupture (like mine had).
In your transmission situation, there must be something other than the seal that is not right. Trust your instincts and keep looking.
By the way, your experience has convinced me to leave my gearbox alone and live with the occasional weak synchronizer.
Good luck.
Tom Kizer
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Hey Tom, thanks for your reply. The front seal appears to be all that is standing between ATF coming through the front seal and belching out into the bell housing. My parts box had a front seal so brittle that it crumbled in my hands. I couldn't quite understand that as the bell housing seemed quite clean and yet my gearbox had a perfect seal and the bell housing had a thick layers of sludge all over it. Probably from the rear dog turn seal which is my next drama not doubt.
I hope I havn't scared you off doing this rather than provide you some useful information on how to do it with ease. If I had to do it again it would take a fraction of the time.
I am really glad I have this second box. I am going to keep it as a backup should something crap itself when I take mine out for its first test run. Today I am going to wip the top case off and check out the condition of the gears. Mine had a few chinks here and there but I am fairly certain that all the syncros and bearings have been done at some stage. I suspect this as all the seals are fresh and when I took the car off the road the box was changing beautifully. As my mercedes tech mate pointed out to me last night this could also be why my box seems tighter ie the old box was loose as a goose with 50 years of wear on it.
I dont think taking the box the next step and breaking down the main shaft and idler arm to get at all the gear set would be that difficult. I would be damned interested to here from someone that has done it to know if this is the case. One thing that has saved my bacon on this job is the volumes of photos I have snapped, before, after and during the refurb. Literally every nut I have taken off I have taken pics off. Sounds silly but there all manner of lengths and bits pieces.
Its amazing what you forget over the course of a week. Just last night I reviewed the photos and had to go out into the garage and make a few last 'swaps' of bits and pieces.
I am currently in the process of trying to extract the old seal on the parts box without screwing it. It going to be very hard to do. Even then the depth of the steel base, with all the rubber removed, is not quite enough to clear the rubber on the new seal. Will take some pictures of this if it work out.
Anyway, fingers crossed my gearbox pilgrimage is going to come to an end in the next day or so and this week I can move onto the engine. This I am not looking forward to.
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Finished the box. The seal took me an hour or so to finally get in. Half an hour to get the old seal out of the spare gearbox and another half to carefully fit it up.
Took the top off the spare box as well. I would say its far better than my box. All the gears look perfect. If I had it on day one I would have ran with it. Guess having it in the garage is good insurance.
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Here we go
Finally plucked up enough courage today to start my engine refurb. I am hoping its only going to be cosmetic but if everything else that has come before is any guide... well might be in for quite some ride.
The first task was to extricate it from its hiding place of the past past two year, a very dank and dusty corner of the garage, and get it up onto an engine stand. Sounds easy but actually took quite a while to get it balanced nicely on the engine stand. I want to be able to work on the bottom end so I had to ensure that I got the C of G right on the mounting so it could be rotated easily.
Before I got it on the stand I also had to strip off the clutch plate, flywheel and alloy sandwich plate that sits between the block and the bell housing. Everything came off with ease. To my surprise there wasn't much oil behind the flywheel. I was expecting it to be filthy with my prediction of a failing rear main. But was surprised to find everything relatively clean. In some respects I wish it was an obvious oil leak as at least it would have been identified and repairable. Now I am even more confused as to where all the puddles on the floor came from and what to do about them.
I am just going to continue with my plan of re-sealing as much as I can without going too far... whatever that practically mean.
After I got it all mounted up on the stand I started taking off a few bits and pieces. The frost plates have caused me issues in the past with cap screw rusting in and snapping off if you get to brutal on them. Took my time and eased them off with no worries. The frost plates were almost new which was a good sign its been worked on in recent years. Hopefully a good omen for things to come.
The last owner swore he had it fully refurbished back in the early 90's and with only a few thousand k's on it I am hoping for the best.
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Have had a few days off the car this week but back onto the engine today. I took the oil pan off first to see what the general state of the internals looked like. I was pleasantly surprised. I have pulled apart quite a few of these old motors and normally the internals are usually pitch black covered in an inch of sludge. Not this engine. It was relatively pristine right down to the original red/orange painted at the factory over the internal walls of the block. Even the pistons were nice and shiny. I am more an more confident that the last owner was telling the truth about the money spent on it. Certainly all stacking up in his favor at the moment. Just got to iron out the oil leaks and I will feel confident putting it back in.
Next I pulled off the front harmonic balancing wheel. The big center nut gave me some grief but with a bit of gentle persuasion it came free. Once this was off I carefully studied the oil and sludge pattern down the front of the engine. To my surprise it almost seems as if the oil is coming from higher up just under the water pump housing. Am picking the studs go into oil jackets and the last mechanic simply forgot to coat the thread with sealant. I am interested in everyones thoughts here.
I have formulated a final plan. Think I will still take the bottom main ali pan off, replace half the dog turd rear seal and reseal. This will also give me the opportunity to blast all the alloy and get the cap screws plated. Slap it back on and replace the front main. I have an entire top and bottom end gasket set so I may as well use it.
Will probably pull off the water pump and its ali housing and investigate the leak. But I think I will leave the timing gear front ali cover in place. Wire brush the block, mask and paint after a very very thorough degrease and clean.
Hopefully it will turn out trumps!
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It is sometimes difficult to determine where oil is coming from. Once it hits the crank pulley it is sent everywhere, and that spot at the bottom of the water pump may be greasy because of that. Is the back of your crank pulley greasy?
I recently worked on my wife's fintail w110 230 and the front of the engine was covered in oil and sludge. I left the crankshaft seal alone, cleaned everything but used thread sealant on all bolts on the front of the engine. 300 miles later the engine is still as clean as when I put it back together.
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GGR, I am almost certain your right on all accounts. Are you a engineer or mechanic?
I am going to study a spare 108 block I have here and figure out which of the bolts down the front face lead into oil passages. Will end up resealing everything but just a good exercise to ensure when it all goes back together that I pay the 'correct' attention to the bolts that actually matter.
I think that my bell housing leak was the same type of issue as well. The box had obviously been taking apart as all the seals were beautifully fresh but something was leaking even when the car was sitting up doing nothing. Pools of oil would form on the garage floor under the bell housing. Logic dictates that the oil isn't from the main front gearbox seal as it sits above the waterline of the gearbox. I am almost certain this applies to the engine oil and the rear main engine seal as well.
So if I have oil continually leaking for weeks on end without starting the car it my humble opinion that the culprit with my gearbox issues is the two lower bolts which penetrate through an open hole into the main gearbox cavity. When I refilled my box I didn't seal these properly and visibly saw oil seeping out. I tipped the box up took the bolts out, cleaned the oil out of the thread with solvent and resealed. I tested the box again by leaving it tipped at a 45 which allowed oil to be constantly flooding all of the front sealing components. Left it overnight to be sure. Dry as a bone. Then turned around the next night and did the same on the rear. I couldn't do it on the top because of the breather which just pisses oil everywhere.
I am wondering how effective thread seal is when you don't clean the thread before use of oil/grease/sludge residue. I know from experience that when I have tried to smear sealing compound on more obvious and accessible mating surfaces which I hadn't cleaned properly that the compound doesn't adhere well at all. I think that perhaps this could be a mistake made by mechanics under time constraints or when the repair is been done in situ and its just too hard to achieve. Bolts just get slapped back in with little thought. Job done, customer pays cash and a couple of months latter the leak begins.
I am really hoping I wont have any more puddles on my garage floor if I pay a little attention at this point of proceedings. Again I am certainly no mechanic but just trying to apply a bit of common sense to the problem. Am 100% certain that an experienced Mercedes mechanic would give a much more confident and accurate diagnosis. Just treat anything I say with a grain of salt :)
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I'm no professional mechanic nor an engineer, but I've been turning wrenches since I'm a kid.
many threads in front of the engine go through into the chain well. I don't think any is in contact with an oil line, but the pressure in the crankcase and oil being thrown around in enough to create seepage if thread sealant is not being used. Same with the transmission. Don't limit yourself to the bolts below the oil level. when it's all turning at 5000 rpm in there I guess oil is everywhere (if not, how would the upper shaft be lubricated?). So I would use thread sealant for all the bolts that go through the case wall. The breather on the top has a special shape to allow for air go out but not oil.
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GGR, I agree with your sentiments but still think anywhere where oil can pool directly behind a bolt head that gravity and the pressure of the pool will take effect and make a thread leak much worse. I am wondering if up around the ali water housing if there are any pockets or ledges where oil get deposited on mass during normal operation. If the engine is healthy I dont think to much pressure builds up in the internals does it? I could understand the effect your referring to would be accentuated if all your compression rings were shot! Oil would be forced out all sorts of crevices and cracks. I will be definitely taking your advice and sealing every bolt I put in. Thanks for your help :)
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bolts under the oil level are certainly more prone to seepage than others. But using thread sealant everywhere a bolt goes through a housing is not difficult and is good insurance. You should look into the workshop manual, usually the mention where thread sealant needs to be used. When I rebuilt my transmissions, I clearly remember the manual specific for these transmissions mentioning the need for using thread sealant everywhere a bolt was going through a casing.
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O for Awesome
This notorious New Zealand saying was burnt into New Zealand folk law after one of our best every heavy weight boxers (there havn't been many) went on New Zealand wheel of fortune and uttered these now legendary words. Take a look at the you tube video if you don't believe me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaIZF8uUTtk&feature=kp
Even though these words were uttered more than a decade ago they still endure and often I here the phrase spoken in NZ where someone has had a good run of luck or thinks something is really awesome. I had and O for Awesome day today!
Cracked open the base pan to be met by what looked like a freshly restored bottom end. Everything was mint. The first thing that struck me was the factory orange internal paint which had shown glimpses of itself when I pulled the small sump pan. Now I was almost blinded.
Better access to the pistons has further convinced me that I have a near new set installed. Everything is as it should. The front and rear seals were pretty damn good as are the running surfaces on the crank. To be honest this is the first crank I have seen where there isn't a 'ditch' cut into it with 50 years of the seal lip running over it. Its almost perfect. Perhaps it was machined when it was overhauled in the early 90's.
In any event I am over the moon and am glad I went the distance and cracked the pans to confirm. Kinda the same feeling when you go to the dentist after many years of total sugar abuse on top of minimal brushing and flossing to be told you have lovely teeth and to keep up the good work. The previous owner must have flossed.. quite a bit.
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I thought things couldn't get any better until I cracked the rocker cover for the first time. Same story here. Tears of happiness flowing after careful examination of the cams, timing gear and the inside of the rocker cover. Off to take the wife and family off to a celebratory restaurant meal followed by several glasses of good vino. Life is good.
Think with today's find I will have a shot at having the car on the road by xmas. Good news for all of you guys who are sick of my bantering ;)
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The only thorn in my side is that it looks as if Buds Benz has sent me the incorrect engine seal kit. The early 230 and 250 appear to have a completely different sump pan to mine. Buds sent a kit for the latter 280sl engine.
I told them very very clearly that I had a 230 and have sent them an email with a description of the problems and some photos to mull over. I would have thought with their experience this problem should have been avoidable. Will see how they respond.
In the mean time can anyone tell me if, other than the sump pan, there will be any other variations in the seal kit. ie do I just need the sump gasket or are there dozens of other differences in the gaskets between a M130 and the M127. I am picking there are and that to save a lot of frustration David needs to send me a M127 seal kit instead of a M130 equivalent.
Any help on this appreciated.
Regards
Andrew
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Busy week in the bead blaster. Achieved a lot this weeks before I head off to a new contract next week which will earn me a few bucks but take me away from the refurbishment for a few months.
Most of the week has been concentrating on the engine parts taken off for the reseal. All the ali was blasted along with all the nuts and bolts. I am still waiting on the plating of the nuts and bolts after the electroplater was hospitalized with a burst appendix. Hopefully they will be ready tomorrow and I can crack into the assembly.
I set myself the target of having the block back in the engine by the end of the weekend before I went off to work. Not going to happen. Probably way to optimistic from the start.
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Some pics of the painted engine components. Should look quite crisp back on the engine. All the pulleys have been powder coated in matching satin. I didn't want to take the harmonic balancer into the powder coating booth as it has a layers of rubber which are glued/bonded to the outer metal casing. Risking the glue coming apart wasn't worth it. So all these parts got coated in ceramic high temp paint. Its resistant to solvents and oil and is also temp rated to 300 so should do the job.
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With all the bits that come out of the bead blaster I sit down individually and inspect for damage. Its amazing what you miss when you take stuff off the car and have other things on your mind. I came back to the water pump housing and discovered that electrolisis had set in which then probably had gone on to cause a big enough pit to start promoting cavitation. Whatever it had to be fixed as it was only a few mm from coming out the other side. If left this type of problem could end in some pretty nasty knock on effects.
I took the part down to my local specialist ali welders. He has taken a keen interest in the project and was really interested in my latest problem. It only took him a few seconds to fill the hole. He didn't want any money as long as I agreed to do all the dressing. I got home and got my dremel out. Used a combination of the sanding heads and the steel nibbling auger to reshape the weld back to approx the factory shape. Took an eternity. The weld that was put in is much harder material than the original casting.
I carefully tested out the fitted up pump in the housing to make sure all the clearances were ok. No problem so move on to the next challenge.
Hopefully it should last a few more years.
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Moved on to trying to fix the heater flap that broke a few weeks back. It happened after I had put everything back together and was testing out the completed system. The small hinge pin broke off. Apart the dash came again. The broken part has been sitting on the front of the car since teasing me every time I walk past it. It hasn't been pleasant having to look at it every day knowing I have to make repairs.
As it turned out the fix didn't take long at all. Its strange how the brain works. Half the stuff I worry myself over turn out to be no where as bad as the mind anticipates.
I measure up the tang at 5.8mm in diameter. Its a very tight fit into the opposing housing and is quite an odd size so I worried that I wouldn't be able to get something suitable. As it happened I looked down at an old philips head screwdriver at my feet and wondered. Picked it up and clocked it with the micrometer at exactly 5.8mm. Someone above was taking pity on me that day.
Five minutes with the hacksaw and the raw materials were ready. Used the dremel to make quick work of preparing the flap to take the new rod. Used Q Bond to glue it in. That stuff is awesome for this type of repair. Easily 10 times as strong as the original design.
Knowing the steps involved in putting it back in also really helped. The first time probably took me close to 2 hours, this time it was all back in place in less that 40 minutes. The difference it made to the feel of the attached lever was quite pronounced. When I broke it the first time I was playing with it because it didn't feel right. Now its really positive and doesn't have any flex at all. Good result which I am sure will last years to come.
Have also attached some pics of the painted engine block for your viewing pleasure.
Spent a full day today finalizing the stereo install and installing my seats on the rails. Nice to finally sit in the seats without them sliding around all over the show.
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Picked up the plated nuts and bolts today. Some of them are high tensile so I decided to heat treat everything to eliminate any brittleness introduced by the plating process. Soaked them at 180 for 6 hours in my kitchen oven. I screws over perhaps 30% of the cosmetic of the gold plating but ensures none of the head will shear off when I torque them up.
Now I just have to suss out where they are all suppose to go. Quite a few distinctly different fixings. I have no idea where most of them go but will rely on common sense, an accurate depth gauge and perhaps some help from in here to figure it all out. Am sure a fair amount of head scratching will ensue.
I will replace the two frost plates if your wondering. Too much pitting.
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Made good progress on the engine up until this afternoon. Trying to get the front main crank seal back in. I am uncertain if the seal I have is correct for my engine. It came out of the M130 seal kit buds sent accidentally. I read all the relevant threads in here but am still a bit confused.
Packed the inner race of the seal with grease and applied a thin smear of sealant to the perimeter of the seal. Tried driving it in but the edges keep on catching as if the seal OD is too large. It all seems to measure up ok so am wondering if there is a technique to getting this started and compressed into the housing.
I think I may have destroyed the seal in my attempt. Would appreciate some guidance on what I should be doing now.
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Hi Andy, I can't answer your question about whether the M130 oil seal is the same size but looking at the outside diameter of the seal, in your photo, it looks like only the first two or three rings of the OD seal area have been affected so should be all right. From memory my front oill seal had the sizes printed on the front face of the oil seal? Also any driving force needs to be even all around the outside diameter of the seal at the same time. Engine looks spiffing.
cheers
Rodger K
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Cheers Rodger, I am still a bit stumped as I did use even force. Have also done this seal on two or three engines now while in the car and cant remember problems with any of them.
Suppose I just have to keep hammering away at this seal and see if I can get it to slip in somehow. I have another one on the way from Buds so no huge drama other than it will delay me another week or so.
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Had another couple attempts at getting the seal in and damaged it enough now that I am not comfortable putting it back in. The only upside of this is now I could try out a few things (with a bit more force) on the seal and treat it as a learning exercise. Quickly discovered what I was doing wrong! Being too much of a neat freak is sometimes a bad thing. When I packed the grease into the seal race I was wiping the excess off and inadvertently cleaned the seal lip of lubricant. Its the first thing that makes contact with the crankshaft journal so to get the lip to slip over its important to either leave the lip greased or wipe some grease over the journals front nose.
Without lubrication the lip was catching and creating resistance causing the seal to buckle on one side and dig into its housing. The minute I lubed the seal it sailed on. At least I am now confident I can install the next one.
Live and learn.
On a side note after my failure I decided to light the fire as its getting really cold down this way. While chopping up some firewood a piece flew off, flew about five meters and smashed a large ranch slider window. 220 dollars latter. Money that could have purchased half a ash tray!
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Andy,
Why do you buy parts from BB, can you not get the genuine article from your local stealer or perish the thought, MB Australia.
With regard to the fitting problem get RK to turn you a spacer that will fit over the front of the crankshaft with an OD equal to the diameter of the seal track or if you have replaced the spacer use the old one and slide it on with the new seal.
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Hey Eric,
Thanks for the reply. I purchased all the bits and pieces through Buds when I put my order in for the interior. I have always avoided using local MB dealer as the prices are so ridiculously expensive. Buying even OEM stuff from the states is usually half the price if you shop around. An example is that little nut for the handbrake. I also thought it would be more economical this way combining all the shipping. Had no idea that they would ship me non OEM seal kits. I don't know if it matters too much does it? Don't have enough experience to know good from bad. Interested to know more negative experiences around aftermarket sets.
I get what your saying about the spacer ring. I have never needed one before but I can see how it would make the job much easier. Is this something you consider to be imperative to get the seal in without damaging it. I am aware that even minor damage to this type of seal on installation can lead to eventual failure. I think every seal I have installed has leaked after a couple of years. Guess it could be down to me damaging the seals on the way in. The first one I ever did lasted about 5 minutes. I didn't know about packing it with grease and it burnt itself out in no time the first time I started the motor. I am no mechanic that's for sure.
I have read about quite a few guys replacing the spacer. Also read about the spacer not being sealed to the crank well enough and oil seeping between. I wasn't planning on replacing mine as its in pretty good condition with only slight tell signs where the seal was running. Do you think I should I be replacing this and if so why?
I really want to get this right as it always seems to be the main culprit of leaks and appreciate all your help and advice. If you ever need any advice on writing software feel free to ask.
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Andy,
If the rubbing surface on the spacer is not worn/marked then there is no need to replace it.
As a matter of interest if your spacer is marked and you feel you want to replace it, you can always remove it and refit it in the reverse direction, the lip of the seal will then run on an unworn part of the spacer. This would save you visiting you local dealer.
If RK can turn you down a spacer as I indicated it does ensure you do not damage the seal.
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Eric, thats fantastic advice. Will double check the running surface tonight and make a decsion. RK is currently off on holiday so can't really wait around. I need to push ahead and keep things moving. I am worried at this wait the body will have rusted away before I am finished. :D
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Hi Andy. I think you have figured the problem out re packing the oil seal with grease, as you say no need to do this as long as you put a smear on the inner seal area. I will be homenext week (thursday) if you want a hand or any machining.
cheers
Rodger
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Have taken a closer look at the front seal housing this afternoon and discovered that there is a slight offset from the block to the upper pan. This manifests itself in two very slight lips. Am wondering if I could have perfected this when installing the sump pan. Am picking there is a few thou of slop between the securing cap screws and the holes in the pan that would allow you to move the pan left to right on the block.
I went to the end of earth to seal the rear and dont wont to pull this off to trial the theory if you guys think its wasted breath. Take a look at the pictures and see what you think.
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Hi Andy, if it is only 0.002" or so I wouldnt think it a problem, how about running a slip stone or something similar around both the sump and block front edges to make sure you don't have a bump or something else that needs honing off. The hardest part is starting the oil seal entering as you probably know. I put mine on some time ago with the engine assembled. Is the oil seal pictured undamaged enough to have a practice? I guess you have used some sort of sealant between the gasket and the block between the sump and block, otherwise you could slack it off a bit but I still think you could get the seal in if you don't pack it with grease this time without doing this. Further to this the seal size is quite a common one although it has special features like the stop lugs. You could buy a standard seal locally and have a practice run if you wanted to. Just pull the practice one out when the new seal arrives.
cheers
Rodger K
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If you have used a non hardening gasket cement, slightly loosen all the bolts and tap it into position.
Looking at the first picture the sleeve seems to be too far in the recess, where is the polished part (seal rubbing mark) is it a little off centre, on the other hand it could be the picture.
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Thanks guys appreciate your responses. Its really good just to chew the fat before I attack it again. Keeps me sane.
There is no paper gasket between the block and pan so all I down is time to redo it. I would love to avoid it but want this aspect correct. What I would love to know out of interest is if getting the two halves perfectly aligned before you tighten up the cap screws is factory procedure. I have used threebond sealant. I dont know if it sets hard or not. If I get it wrong what are the ramifications. Can you remove the upper pan without lifting the engine when its back in the car?
Eric have you ever encountered this issue before. Am sure you would have cracked hundreds of these pan.
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Andy,
I do not want to state the obvious but when I offer the pan up I ensure that there is no discrepancy, when you do the job next time niether will you.
If it was me I would redo it, there is no cost involved and you will feel happier knowing that it is correct.
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Cheers Eric, I will redo it from scratch then. I dont think this is that obvious for first timers and think its valuable to put up here in case anyone else runs into the same issue.
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I was going to say:
When would you rather do this job? When the engine is out of the car or when it is in it?
Because you will be doing it again!
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Hey guys, that is fantastic. Thanks for all your input. Having only ever seen one of these pans close up I was unsure if this very slight offset was 'normal' or not. And if such a small imperfection would cause significant issues with the seal.
It is entirely within the realms of possibility here that the seal, which does slip in ok with some extra lubrication on the lip, would seal with the aid of addional sealant.
What I think is valuable to the formum is guys like Eric, Stick, Dr Benz and JA comment on if they have hit the specific issue, ignored it and then bore the consequences when it leaked like a sieve or if the are aware of certain factory procedures to avoid the problem. At this point no one has offered up an admission.
Tonight I am going to dig into the BBB to see if there is a factory reference to this alignment.
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After taking on board all the comments made in here over the last couple of days I have gone back out this afternoon and taken another good hard look at everything. I think Eric may have picked the the problem. I found an old sleeve off a W108 crank I had lying about and used it to expand the seal. It worked well and let me install the seal with a much better control. If you dont have this you are fighting trying to roll the lip of the seal over quite a prominent step risking damage to the seal.
With the seal seating back in I checked on a point that Eric made a few posts back regarding the sleeve being too far recessed on the crank. At the time he made the comment I didn't fully understand exactly what the sleeve was.
To my horror the outer lip of the seal was hanging in mid air. I initially thought that I may have driven the sleeve back on the crank in my first attempt to install the seal. Departing the garage angry with myself I decided to check back on the photos I took while the engine was coming apart.
Clearly you can see the same issue with the old seal. I am almost certain the last time the engine was rebuilt the sleeve was replaced so I am picking the mechanic either didn't pick up the issue or ignored it.
All this is based on my assumption that the outer lip should be riding on the sleeve. If I am wrong please feel free to point out the error of my ways.
If indeed only half the seal was operational to begin with it could explain all the oil present.
I have spent a good hour pawing through the BBB for clues on the installation of the upper sump pan and the crank sleeve. I have drawn a blank on both. If anyone knows which section to look in I would appreciate a point in the right direction.
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Why not do it the easy way,while the upper sump pan is off put the front crank seal in place with sealer,bolt up the upper pan which will align the seal hole as it is being bolted up.
The outer lip on the front seal is a dust seal and seals on the flange of the front pulley.
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Thanks Llloyd, that approach does sound sensible. I like the idea of the pan aligning itself front and rear on the two seals.
I have been reading up in the BBB about the three types of seals, one of them being designed to be installed in the manner your describing.
I am still in the dark how the sleeve is aligned on the crank. I would have imagined that it would be driven onto a hard stop shoulder on the crank so all this alignment milarcy talked about could be avoided. ie no guesswork.
I also dont quite understand how the outer seal lip seals on the flange of the front pulley. As per the photo the lip is incredibly close to the shoulder of the sleeve. Even if the pulley crushed right up onto the sleeve the seal would be bearing down right on the boundary between the two which wouldn't be a good thing.
When I pulled the seal out it wasn't quite pushed all the way into the block. I assumed at the time this was due to the last guy not wanting to run the seals in old historic worn groves. But when I pulled the seal out the sleeve was in excellent condition.
All in all I am still a bit perplexed as to how to proceed.
Bare minimum I will be removing the sump again. Just not sure what to do with the sleeve. Do I pull it off and reinstall in another position? If so how do you gauge that position?
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Andy,
The sleeve is pressed onto the end of the crank (all the way in) and the seal runs on this sleeve, it should run about 1/3 in, this is what allows you to turn the sleeve over if you do not want to buy a new sleeve.
A picture of the sleeve in situ would help, it may be that your sleeve is incorrect ( not long enough) is it a genuine part or has someone made a replacement ?
I have an old one( the one I use to install the new seals) I will today measure it and come back to you later today.
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Thanks Eric, I went out and did another measure up to confirm what Lloyd was saying. It all seems to be spot on. The spacer gets pushed onto to the crank and butts up against a hard shoulder on the crank. The heavy timing wheel is then put on after and rides hard up against the shoulder of the sleeve. The large bolt with large washers bolts into the end of the crank and cranks the timing wheel hard up against the sleeve and the shoulder on the crank holding everything tightly together.
It is possible that my sleeve is some sort of nasty after market part and is shorter than it should be. I wont know until I take it off and measure. I don't want to do this if I can help it.
Think I am starting to get a handle on it all now. Without considering all of the parts this setup is hard to understand.
Note the sleeve in the photo is from my W108 spare part stash. The two grooves cut in it are incredibly deep to the point where I thought they couldn't have been done with a rubber seal.
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Andy,
The sleeve is 17mm long and the OD is 45mm, when you remove the pan post a picture of the sleeve in situ, with the pan removed you will easily measure the sleeve you could also fit ( temporarily )your damaged seal to see where the oil seal runs.
Also be aware that when you fit the large pulley wheel it will only go on in one position, it may take a few attempts to get it correctly aligned with the dowel pins.
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New seal kit arrived today so just have to figure out the exact placement for the front seal and I am off running again. Pulled the upper pan and took further measurements and photos highlighting what drmb pointing out regarding the position of the outer dust seal lip.
My initial gut feeling seems correct that if the seal was pushed all the way up flush with the block would result in the outer lip of the seal sitting in a valley between the sleeve and the boss of the timing wheel. I am almost certain that this why the previous mechanic didn't home the seal all the way to the block.
I am going to hang off installing until I have got some confirmation that all my thoughts on the position are spot on.
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I am proposing that this is the correct position for reinstalling the seal. What say you all?
I would be interested in your thoughts about why Mercedes would have designed a seal which sealed partially across two different parts ie the sleeve and the timing wheel. Why did they not increase the length of the sleeve by 5mm and have the seals two lip mating to the one part. I would have thought that would have created a more reliable seal which was easier to intall.
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The seal is pressed in all the way until the raised portion is flush with the block, the forward lip is only to keep the important inner seal clean.
Did you measure the length of the sleeve and when you removed your temporarily fitted seal how far on the sleeve was the rubbing mark left by the seal ?
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The seal is pressed in all the way until the raised portion is flush with the block, the forward lip is only to keep the important inner seal clean
Perhaps discussed - but did you look carefully at the drawing in the workshop manual?
The lip of the seal (7) runs on the wear ring (8 ) on the crankshaft, but also the forward lip seals lightly onto the balancing disc (6). The wear ring [as well as the chain sprocket No9] are clamped in position by the Bellevue springs (13) and the big M18x1,5 bolt (14) at the front.
The seal must be put on absolutely perpendicular to the crankshaft - I use a special sleeve with a flange to push the seal in, by means of the big bolt. I use sealant, so I leave the special sleeve on for some hours, until sealant has cured. I then torque the pan/block bolts at the forward part, these were loose when seal was pressed in
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Hans, thanks for that diagram. I missed it in the manual. I wasn't really looking for this rather than details of assembly of the upper pan. I have also been back to work this week so very limited time to do research.
I did read your thread a few days ago regarding using the tool to push the seal back in. Its an excellent way to do it in a controlled manner and as always with your posts I was impressed with the clear way in which you explained the problem and solution. Superb effort! I actually went out to see if I could find some bits I could weld together to replicate the tool.
After a few comments on this thread I moved away from trying to push the seal on as the general consensus seems to be that I have to split my upper pan to get its alignment correct.
drmb's suggestion of assembling the pan with the seal in place seemed to make sense and after reading that it was done this way at the factory sealed my decision to follow suit. I also think you can get a better coverage of sealant in place using this technique.
Hans I am interested how far in you pushed the seal on your car, how long ago you did it, how many k's the car has done since and if its showing any signs of weeping.
Whatever technique I decide to use on mine I am happy to report back and let other know if its been successful or not. Whats the point of this forum otherwise.
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.../...I did read your thread a few days ago regarding using the tool to push the seal back in. Its an excellent way to do it in a controlled manner and as always with your posts I was impressed with the clear way in which you explained the problem and solution. Superb effort! I actually went out to see if I could find some bits I could weld together to replicate the tool.../...
Ah, yes, I suppose you refer to this old posting: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7282.msg46106#msg46106 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7282.msg46106#msg46106)
The wear ring removal tool Frank K made is elegant
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Andy, posts from Lloyd and the sectioned view supplied by Hans clearly show the outer oil seal lip running on the back of the front pulley. Have you checked that the sleeve length is correct for a 230sl, is a 280sl sleeve longer? If it is then either the crankshaft sprocket is not sitting hard back on the crankshaft shoulder or the crankshaft is too far forward? Something is preventing the crankshaft pulley from going back far enough to engage the oilseal front lip.
cheers
Rodger K
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Hi Andy, posts from Lloyd and the sectioned view supplied by Hans clearly show the outer oil seal lip running on the back of the front pulley. Have you checked that the sleeve length is correct for a 230sl, is a 280sl sleeve longer? If it is then either the crankshaft sprocket is not sitting hard back on the crankshaft shoulder or the crankshaft is too far forward? Something is preventing the crankshaft pulley from going back far enough to engage the oilseal front lip.
cheers
Rodger K
I would second that. The last picture on your post #1040 shows that the pulley is not flush with the crankshaft where the big washers and bolt go (it looks to be flush on the sectioned view). Also check if your sprocket on the crankshaft is properly aligned with the other timing sprockets, as you don't want the chain to be working "sideways", as it will end up failing (got the case on a 230 single row chain that broke due to a misaligned intermediate gear). Something seems to be wrong, better find it now than after a potential catastrophic failure.
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Guys I measured the distance delta between the face of the crank and the face of the timing wheel at only 1.5mm. I would have thought that this would have been normal as some preloading would be necessary to clamp everything down on the shaft?
I cant see from the factory diagram if there should be any offset here. Let me know what you think. Would love to put all this back together this weekend.
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Hi Andy, if you are sure the sprocket can't go any further back, and the crankshaft is in the right place longitudinally, it seems to me the seal wear ring is too long? Have you checked how long a 230SL wear ring should be? If the collar was shorter it would allow the crankshaft pulley to move further back and engage the oil seal front lip? Could a longer wear ring off another model have been used in earlier engine rebuild?
cheers
Rodger K
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Figured it out. It was the seal. The first time I tried to drive the seal in I damaged it using a large pipe. Its actually imploded the side wall of the seal and the dust seal has been effectively bent back closer to the inner lip. It wasn't until I compared the old and the new seal that the subtle difference became apparent.
I spent a couple of hours cleaning off the pan and block of the threebond sealant I used the first time. Its amazing stuff and stick like the proverbial to a blanket.
Without the upper pan in place the seal popped really easily into the half housing. I used the old sleeve to help. Doing it the way the application of the additional sealant is definitely applied in a far superior manner than pressing the seal in from the front which wipes off most of the sealant.
Lloyd was 100% correct in saying this is the far easier. Everything flew together and aligned itself perfectly with no force required and no risk of damaging the seal. The only other technique I would now trust is the one mbzse pointed out using the front bolt and a special tool to press the new seal in a really controlled manner.
In reflection I totally screwed my first seal probably in the first 30 seconds of the first attempt with uneven and to much force.
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From the last picture the oil sealing lip of the seal appears to only just go onto the sleeve, from what I see on your picture, your problems are not over.
You seem to be giving more importance to the outer lip, it is the inner lip that is important.
I will ask this question again, did you measure the length of the sleeve as it does not appear to be long enough or there is a problem somewhere else.
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Eric, I will investigate further. Would you agree with me that if the inner and outer lip of the seal are only 10mm apart from each other, and if the sleeve and the shoulder of the timing wheel meet exactly in the middle of the seal lips, then the inner lip of the seal will only be running 5mm from the end of the sleeve?
Eric also the sleeve must be the right length as the entire assembly is within +1mm of the length of the crank shaft it runs on. If this isn't right please please pull me up.
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Andy,
From the last picture above if the installation sleeve had been pushed all the way in, ie beyond the inner lip on removal all the grease would have been removed from the installation sleeve. As it is it looks like the inner lip is not located on the crakshaft sleeve.
Can you take a picture with the installation sleeve removed so that we can see the inner lip and get some idea how far it is seated on the sleeve ?
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Hi Eric, I here what your saying but still think the magnification of the photo may be throwing you. In the photo it look like your looking at the back wall of the seal but it is in fact actually the front face of the sleeve.
I would say the front face your looking at is no more than 3-4mm from the front seal lip. I agree with you the sleeve is 17mm. The seal is probably around 12 from shoulder to shoulder and around 10mm from lip to lip.
I think the photo magnification may have thrown you somewhat. If you look at the photo below with the seal installed on the spare sleeve it puts it into context. Then look at the grease smear on the spare sleeve I used to install the seal. This accurately represents how far the lip is from the shoulder of the sleeve. Bare in mind the entire sleeve is only 17mm I think I am probably 4-5mm from the lip giving 5-6mm overlap onto the sleeve for the running surface of the inner lip.
If you look carefully at the factory diagram I posted this seems about right. If your assertions were correct and the inner lip was only just running, or not running on the sleeve then my grease dip stick approach would show around 10mm of the 17mm of the installation sleeve would be covered with grease.
Hope all this makes sense to you and again if I am missing something obvious let me know.
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Been busy this week writing software. Not much time for the car but I did manage to get out into the bead blaster again and finish of the very last lot of engine nuts and bolts that need gold plating. Also decided to finish off the power steering and fit it up before the engine goes back. Given I have never put an engine in a 113 before, only taken one out, I am a bit nervous about putting too much back on the engine and making it cumbersome and heavy. Wondering what the right balance is to make thing easy for myself. I have decided not to mate the gear box up but put it back in afterwards. I will probably be putting the engine in by myself so guess this is a situation where less is more if you get my gist.
Also decided to pull as much stuff off the injection pump for replating as I dare. It was going so beautifully before I took it all apart I am a bit jittery about upsetting anything. Have decided to leave all the throttle arms in place and paint them. No worth the risk of stuffing something up. Most of this stuff isn't visible from the top of the engine either. One lesson I learnt from the 108. Spent an eternity on the pump for that. It looks awesome on the stand but once it goes back into the car you loose 90% of your hard work under a mass of pipes. I will get it to 80% and slam it back in.
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Just about to pull the pin on my last big shipment to finish off all the bits and pieces I need to sort. Some very expensive things that I have been holding off on. Defies belief that I am just about to drop almost 700 dollar NZ for an ash tray and I have never had a cigarette in my mouth in my life.
I have been busy pulling apart my W108 parts car which has so gracefully given up her internal organs for her much daintier little sister. I think he deserves a medal dont you.
In any event the sale of the W108 engine, gearbox and diff will pay for this last shipment. Finger crossed its the last and I wont have to explain any oversights to the wife.
Wood Set 745
Speaker mounting kit 18
Speaker Grill 20
Brake Nut 48
Ash Tray 486
Brake slave boot 12
Seat knob 50
Interior Lamp 58
Total 1437 USD
Shipping 200
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Just about to put my injection pump back in and time it up. I have been reading over the BBB and found the section regarding the early 230sl 6 plunger unit. It all seems simple enough. I installed a couple of 280se unit with no difficulties but what perplexes me in the BBB for the 230 is that they start off by talking about setting piston 6 20 degrees on its suction stroke ATDC. Then almost as a side comment in brackets they start talking about 1st cylinder 20 degrees after ignition TDC). On the surface this seems to be an identical position they are talking about.
This has unnerved me a little. I understand that the two will be in sync but why are they referring to number six as the primary measure when number one is universally used to time up engines.
Its probably obvious but can someone explain it to me why they have described it this way.
ANSWERED OWN QUESTION.
Just reading on very sleepy eyes. After reading over the whole section discovered that the six cylinder injection pump, unique to the 230sl, have pipes arranged in the reverse order compared to other mercedes injection engines ie pipe 1 of the injection pump leads to valve 6 of the engine. Wonder why they did this. Probably so you could time the pump off number 1 ignition settings???
Sorry to bother you guys. Tried to delete this post but couldn't find a way.
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My 230SL FI pump was offset 20 degrees by the PO. This is a common error I have read about for those not in the know.
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paults1, please elaborate. All the mercedes factory documentation I have clearly indicates the pump is always offset to 20 degrees ATDC on the suction stroke. If I have missed something please please let me know. Cheers Andy
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Sorry Andy, It was not set at 20 degrees. It was set at 0, meaning it was off by 20 degrees. I need an auditor for my replies.
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Engine tidy up is coming along well. Picked up the last of the plated nuts and bolts for the injector pump and started putting this back together as well. I decided not bead blast the injector pump this time around. I have done it to two other W108 pumps before. I really takes a lot of effort to keep out as much of the media as possible and then to completely flush the unit latter. I elected to just scrub the **** out of it with wax and grease remover and scotch pads. It works to a point but will never get the same crisp effect of the beads. Never the less its a vast improvement and will look newish once installed. I also didn't end up taking off and upsetting the accelerator linkage arms on the side of the pump but masked them up and painted them with epoxy etch followed by gold paint. No one other than you guys will ever know and the paint will probably provide much better long term protection than gold plating.
All in all I am happy with the engine, not perfect but presentable.
When all the paint is dried I will install the injector pump and hard fuel lines, drop the motor on the ground and put the flywheel and clutch assembly back on.
I am toying with the idea of bolting the gearbox back on and installing in one piece. Anyone want to tell me about their experience doing it this way. Always interested in your opinions. Currently my thinking is that I dont want to scratch my paint if I attempt this on my own.
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Nice going Andy, congratulations that it's almost there now.
FWIW I believe having read some consistent advice here that it is better to remove/install the engine with the gearbox attached. That is how I did mine and it worked fine; just remember to hook up your speedo cable before everything is in its final position because it will be much more difficult to attach (at least it proved to be on my 280 SL automatic) later.
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Andy what did you do with your rocker cover, it looks very grey. Did you peen it?
I put my engine back in with gear box attached from underneath, or should I say someone else, several others, did it for me together with the whole front end from underneath.
Garry
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Hey Gary, the cover is a correct early sand cast part. Very distinctive irregular almost hand cast look to it. Very very groovy. They are a very rare item. I searched for ages for one and in the end drmb swapped me one for parts I had. They had a very thin wall and were quite prone to cracking. I think quite a few would have been biffed and replaced with the more robust latter ones. I am really interested to know what date they super seeded this part.
I have spent vast amounts of time on this part. I has been laboriously bead blasted two or three times to get an even finish. It looks beautiful and will really cap off the restoration giving the engine bay a more 'vintage' look. I think it looks quite gray in the photo due to the lighting and camera flash. Just perfectly clean alloy.
Cees, when you put your engine in did you drop in from the top or like Gary install the subframe complete with engine. I have already installed my sub frame so have to hoist in over the top. With the additional length of the gearbox attached I am a bit nervous I will interfere, in a very nasty way, with the paint work.
I appreciate the automatic box is a pig to put in afterwards. I have done this on my own with my 280se. That was a ****. But the manual gearbox is much lighter so I was thinking it would be ok to hoist up on my chest. I would love a photo of the two being put in together to give me a bit of perspective.
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You will need the balance bar to tilt the engine and trans while sliding it in.
Don't forget to disconnect the steering relay arm as the bottom of the bellhousing may catch on it.
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The Morning of IJP
Set about putting the Injection Pump back in this morning. Took half an hour to review the BBB and went to work. Everything went smoothly and now am in a strong position to put the engine back in the car in the next couple of days. I dont think I will put too much more back on. I would love to put the manifolds back but think it will make bolting up the right hand drive engine mount a complete mare. Interested in everyones thoughts on this as well.
Decided to use a thin smear of 3bond sealant on the two gaskets to be double sure of an oil tight seal. For some reason every time I have done this using the factory prescribed technique of just smearing grease on the gaskets prior to installation, I have had leaks. Time will tell but I am quite confident the 3bond will sort the issue. Love the stuff.
I am putting up some pictures here in case I have cocked something up. Feel free to lampoon my efforts if I have done anything stupid.
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Am I missing something? I've been retired for 13 years, but, Andy, your Pagoda is older than that, so it should not have changed since I retired - joke!
I think in your first photo of the crankshaft and IP timing for installation, the marker is actually set at 20 degrees BTC, not ATC. Unless, of course, down below the engines turn backwards when you drive on the wrong side of the road.
Anyway, if the engine turns counter-clockwise when seen from the driver's seat, it turns clockwise from the position of your photo. That means the TDC ( 0 ) point should have passed the pointer by 20 degrees if it is to be timed to 20 degrees After Top Center.
Please, someone. If I am wrong, tell me quick. I would hate to be responsible for, as Andy says, "Cocking something up".
Tom Kizer
Quebec
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Hey Tom, I here what your saying and will investigate. I did follow the BBB though. Also on the other side of the TDC mark there arn't many timing mark ie it only goes back to about 10 degrees in the opposite direction.
I have scanned in the page from the BBB I am using. Its a very old version and covers several different models including diesel engines but has a section on the 230sl and talks about the only difference from the photo being 20 degrees rather than 30.
Again if I have missed something hit me on the back of the head with a large plank of wood.... hard.
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Tom is correct, in the picture the crankshaft is set at 20 degrees before TDC.
Also the crankshaft is marked 20 degrees after TDC.
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Guys, am more than happy to eat humble pie on this one. After reading the BBB another couple of times it was obvious I was following instruction for a diesel motor. Thanks both of you, really appreciate the support.
Went out and put it right. Even managed to save the gaskets. The sealant hadn't fully set and I was able to clean them up and reuse.
Hopefully its the last major stuff up I make before I turn the key.
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Hi Andy - I dropped the engine in from above. I did not have a balancing bar and just put extra straps on the engine and hoist, all the straps positioned such that I could tilt the engine as required. I'm sure a levelling bar would have been a bit easier. I don't recall having any concerns about touching the car's paintwork, but then my engine bay was not as clean as yours. good luck with the install.
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Hi Andy,
I thought I remembered something about the photo that you used. Although not in your photo above, my apparently later version of the BBB shows the same photo but also states in the paragraph above it that the photo shows the timing mark set at 26 degrees Before Top Dead Center. After top center would be on the other side of the 0 degree (TDC) mark. The diesel turns the same direction as the gasoline engine.
By the way, Andy, the best justification for all of us being in this group is that by double checking one another, we are less likely to make a mistake. You should know that after 34 years in the auto industry and 13 years retired, I distrusted my memory enough to look up the direction of rotation before I posted. Although I instinctively knew that I was right, I am now old enough to have made lots of mistakes, so I trust myself less and less and decided to verify before posting.
By the way, I'm still checking what you have done each time before I go into the garage to attempt it myself. Keep up the excellent work.
Tom Kizer
Quebec
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Thanks Tom, again your help is very very much appreciated. After your first tip I went out and looked closely at the fan pitch to figure out which way the engine rotated. Also then double checked with the firing order matching up to the cam shaft lobes. Strangely I couldn't find anything in the BBB which made reference to the direction of rotation. I guess in the day it was considered to obvious to bother!
Tom I know what you mean about old age. I think its come to me prematurely. I am now struggling to remember where I put parts down 24 hours ago let alone stuff I was doing 13 years ago. I think you must have a very good memory or more likely I am suffering from early dementia.
Interestingly the timing markings on the front pulley go to exactly 20 degrees ATDC. I cant help but think that the only reason they put any ATDC marks on it was for the IP setup.
I am now pooping my pants that I have made the same mistake with my 280SE. It run really nicely but is running a little rich and runs hot in heavy traffic. I wonder if this could be sympathetic of incorrect IP setup. I cant help but wonder how many other newbies have made the same mistake. I have read the that the IP setting are not that critical so the car may well run 'ok' but have other associated detrimental side effects?
Cees, thank you also for your experience. I have taken that on board and will have a good hard think about it today prior to my install. I would dearly love to do it all in one hit. One thing that is bluntly obvious is that its 100 times easier to work on the engine when its out of the car. That was punctuated last night with it only taking me about 20 minutes to pull the IP off reset and refit. In the car the same job would take a couple of hours.
My body is feeling quite battered at the moment and I really don't like the idea of struggling with things unnecessarily so I may well just take your suggestion to heart.
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Of course you want the IP timing correct as per specification. But as a side note, timing for injection is much less critical than for ignition. You still have some debate going on about when is the best timing for fuel delivery. Some say it is best delivered when the intake valve is still closed, other say open. I went through this when I installed EFI on my 5.0L and at the end it is a try and error process, not all engines react the same way. To give you an idea, the CIS system that was installed on later Mercedes and on number of European GTIs stands for Continuous Injection System. Basically injectors are delivering fuel constantly, and the distributor acts as a tap which opens more or less, depending on manifold pressure.
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Cheers GGR, it all sounds a bit technical for my small brain! I would have thought that you would need a positive pressure differential to suck the atomized fuel into the detonation chamber and if you didn't have that pressure differential your fuel could very quickly return to a non atomized state which may hinder detonation??? Anyway thats just my weird imagination at work its probably total rubbish.
I have another question for you guys. I am putting back the clutch this afternoon and dont have anyway to align the clutch plate. I have done a quick search on the internet and have found quite an interesting youtube vid done by a mechanic who swears alignment tools have slowed him down so he doesn't use them anymore. He just does it by eye. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpE-RbZKw1c
I am thinking that as the engine and gearbox are out of the car I might give it a go and mate the gearbox up to the engine just for the purpose of testing the alignment.
Am interested in other experience with this. I have done a search in here and have found reference to using an old gearbox input shaft and also a cheap plastic tool. I wonder if anyone in here has had success with doing it by eye.
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Hi Andy; I have done many clutches in my day from cars for different kinds to trucks. I have jury rigged a socket on an extention by fit as close as possible to move the clutch plate ever so slightly with the cover bolts in finger tight.. by eye and feeling around the edge of the pressure plate edge as a reference to guess the alignment. when I think it right I then tight the cover bolts a couple a turns at a time from opposite to opposite till tightened'' good luck.
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I am a clutch socket alignment tool convert. Cant see the point in spending a single cent when you already have a socket set. I spent most of the morning cleaning the garage (a bit) and getting the engine onto the crane and balance bar. At this point I just didn't want any slip ups resulting in a dropped engine so I really took my time with the mounting points.
After I got the engine into the air went to work sorting through my large box of bolts for the correct ones. I also just couldn't remember what did and didn't have washers under them when I took everything apart. It really wasn't that long ago I stripped the engine and was getting very frustrated at my pitiful memory. I had to spend a good hour looking back all the restoration photos to determine what went where. I am so happy I have taken so many photos. I would have hated to have done this job even 20 years ago before digital cameras. I think I am now up to close on 4,000 photos. Imagine paying for those to all get developed 20 years ago. Probably cost more than the car!
After I managed to figure everything out the backing plate and flywheel were on within a matter of minutes. I couldn't find anywhere in the BBB the torque settings so I just did them up bloody tight. Its not going anywhere thats for sure.
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Then watched that youtube video of the pommy guy aligning the plate with nothing but a socket. His setup was a bit easier as he has access to the clutch plate through gaps in the pressure plate. The mercedes setup is somewhat different with the clutch and pressure plate sitting inside a deep lip on the outside edge of the firewall. So there is no way to get your finger in and move the plate into a central position.
Two sockets came to the rescue. The smaller one was a perfect diameter to slot into the spigot on the end of the engine drive shaft. This socket then fitted perfectly into a larger socket which had an outside diameter very close to that of spline on the clutch plate. I made up the difference by wrapping an even layer of masking tape around the socket until they interfered with the spline and the spigot.
After that the clutch plate flew back on. I jacked up the engine and eyeballed the setup with one eye to check everything was ok.
Job done.
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While I was at it I decided to put the gearbox back on. The clutch alignment was perfect. Thrilled. Cant wait to get it sitting back in the car.
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Hi Andy,
wonderful work, congratulations.
I hope you haven't forgot the clutch release bearing.
...Wolfgang
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Thanks Wolfgang, fortunately the thrust release bearing is exactly where its meant to be (touch wood), with a nice thin smear of grease over its mating surface ready for it to slide along the gearbox input shaft and make sweet love to that beautiful little clutch pressure plate.
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Andy,
It does not seem a good idea to lift the engine with the small bolt on the cylinder head, you want a strap going around the lower part of the engine, front and back.
The bolt that the chain appears to be on will break and that would ruin your day.
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Point taken Eric. I did ponder this exact point for a good while this morning. I will assess it again tomorrow. It should be fine on the head stud at the rear. I have seen plenty of engine being lifted like this. I picked the one on the front of the engine as it has at least 2cm of thread into the block. I am interested in where other people lift their engines from.
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I have been out this evening and determined that the cap screw I am using for my lift point is a high tensile M8 cap. I am going to take Erics advice and not use it however it did spark my interest in how strong it actually is and how much weight the threads could take.
I did a google an found several manufactures spec sheets. Most of them quoted around 8kN for the threads and 13 for the shank. A figure of 8kN calculates out to around 815kg. I would estimate the gearbox and engine to weigh no more than say 300kg. Given I have two lifting points each would be bearing 150-200max. So theoretically it should be ok. Needless to say looking at its piddly proportions I am not going to risk it with so much money and time riding on it. Good call Eric.
I am at a loss to figure out where I should hoist from. I would like to keep the point as high as possible. I am thinking of taking out one of main head bolts.
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I've found nylon rope / band slings made for this purpose, with 'eyes' at their ends, work great, routed underneath and around the engine front and back. So rather than attaching to bolts or other, I just route thick nylon rope in such a fashion that the engine will be very secure. Typically you have to adjust just a bit when you start lifting, and the weight of the engine pulls everything tight.
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I have used wire rope in the past, you can also use the nylon strapping (about 2inch wide) that the car transporter people use, this incorporates the necessary clamps etc.
Whatever you use route it around the engine, much better that removing bolts/studs.
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Old seat belts make perfect slings.
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Stick thats an awesome idea. I have two seatbelt spare as well. I am still interested to know if my piddly little M8 is actually stronger than a material strop. Have any of you guys ever experienced a bolt or stud being pulled from the engine?????
I may use some hyrid approach with my chains as a backup incase the strops failed. I had a nasty dream last night that as I was hoisting the engine over the front nose cone everything let go and completley crumpled the front end. I couldn't get back to sleep.
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I never had a bolt pull out but did have the boom of a hoist fail. I didn't disconnect "that last little bolt" and yanked the whole front end of the car up and then the boom on the hoist started bending until the engine was resting on the floor - Pretty cool as it all happened in slow motion. make sure your boom is strong enough to support your engine and a bit.
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Ian, there is no worries with that, the hoist is rated at one ton even on its furtherest reach. That would have been a heart stopping moment for you. You would definitley have a large medical bill if you were under an engine and gearbox combination falling from 5 feet!
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Seatbelts
I know the subject of seatbelts has been done to death in here but I just want to quickly run this past you guys. I have acquired an excellent set of early belts which I have seen before in the very very first of the W108's. They look much crisper in the flesh than under the harsh light of the camera flash. Probably back in the day when they were an optional extra. I am not sure if these were factory supplied or a dealer option. The ticket on them suggests they were made in Germany.
The belts I have are in exceptional condition and in a very dark charcoal color which matches my scheme beautifully. I know a lot of you have converted to a modern setup but one of my objectives is to get the car back to how it was in both look and feel.
I can not find any reference photos of early early 230sl belt set up and was wondering if this style was available. Even if it wasn't I will probably run with these until I can source some more.
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Huge car weekend. I have sold my W108 parts car with the agreement that I could strip out whatever I wanted other than the engine, diff and brakes. The new owner gave me two day notice that he would be picking up the car. Yesterday was manic. I woke early and made a list of all the 'stuff' that I might need to finish my resto. Nothing worse than selling parts and then realizing that you have let something critical go and then have to turn around and source and buy the part again.
To make things much harder I can barley walk at the moment. I really hurt my back quite badly putting the gearbox on the engine. Pushed through the pain barrier and stripped the majority of the car back to a bare shell. Took off all the parts that will sell well and anything that is in common with the 113... that I know about.
I have grown quite fond of her and it was a bit sad to see her being hauled onto the new owner trailer. She is again going to be further cannibalized for a finny project. Categorically she has saved me thousands of dollars and the sale price of parts are just about to pay for my new ash tray.
The very last part she sacrificed up was her seat belts which I have used to put my engine back in the car. Have taken on board all the advice and decided to use the belts as the main lifting mech backed up with the chains.
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Decided to push on and try and get the engine back in the car. Home alone with the wife and my mother in law. I got both of them on the job, one either side of the car as lookouts for me as I edged the engine back in. It took a good two hours but finally mated it with it mounts late this afternoon. If I had a couple of other good experienced car fella's it would have only taken half the time but I decided I have waited for long enough and my impatience got the better off me.
I did hit one nasty little side issue which took me a good 20 minutes to figure out. I inadvertently bolted the right hand side engine mount arm upside down on the block. Sitting on the rubber engine mounts the angles just didn't add up and would never have worked. Put it right and very quickly I had the engine exactly where I wanted it.
Hopefully the rest of it will fly back together. I want the engine turning in two weeks!
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Congratulations! You must be feeling really good! Psychologically, having the engine back in the car with the transmission and the rear axle feels like being nearly there, the car back together!
I guess all went well but I got worried when I saw your set-up with the belts not secured on each end of the bar. It looks like the most frontwards could have slipped down when you tilted the engine and trans to get them into the car.
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Thanks GGR, cant wait to here the sound of the engine again. Its been two years almost and I just want the thing mobile and usable. I have resigned myself to the likely hood that once I fire it back up and start test driving it that at least one of the major components will have to come out again due to something moronic I have done. Time will tell.
Re the seat belts slipping, I did think carefully about that and the additional chain would have stopped anything slipping. I used the seat belt length adjustment to pull the belts up slightly shorted the chain so when the tension went on if the belt slipped the chain would catch it. It worked really well.
I did have to get the engine at quite an acute angle to clear the cross member. I considered taking a photo at that point but it meant me taking my hands off which I wasn't keen to do.
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Have been laid up for most of the day with a dodgy back. Lying flat on my back soon got a bit too much and I couldn't resist some light duties in the garage. Managed to get the drive shaft bolted back. Tried to crawl into the cabin and hook back up the gearbox linkages through the inspection panel on the central tunnel. Couldn't find a comfortable position to sit in while doing the work and the only angle that worked felt as if someone was thrusting a switch blade into the base of my spine. Retreated quickly and sought out some more placid work.
Decided to work on the wiring loom. Figured I have to get this right before I am able to move on with the manifolds. The loom runs under the exhaust manifold and takes a fair amount of punishment with all the localized heat in this area.
My loom has some pretty dangerous wiring to be honest. Quite a few of the heavy gauge voltage bearing cables have next to no insulation left on them. I hate to think what would happen if they ever shorted out. The main battery feed also has a inch long section with no insulation. The cable is not fused and given its ability to handle huge amounts of current serious serious damage could result if it shorted. Its also run within mm of the block.
Over the next couple of days I will chip away and replace or repair all of the damage. Its one area I would suggest you guys check next time your car is on the hoist. Pretty much all the cabling under the manifolds on my car were affected. None are visible from the top of the engine bay.
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"Yes doctor, with a backhake, lying on my back in bed or under the car connecting the driveshaft is just about the same!"
When I see your alternator cable, it reminds me of the + going to the main switch behind the dashboard one on my '62 Coupe. The insulation had deteriorated all the way with age and was crumbling into pieces. It was not visible because it was in a black tubing together with other wires. You should check that.
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GGR, I like your style. I am off to the doctors today and no doubt will be having a conversation very similar to the one you have described *lol*. The pain has got so bad I am almost bed ridden. Hopefully some good drugs will sort it out!
I will be chasing all the deteriorated wires back into the loom. I have experienced the same issue on a bmw 2002 in the past and it had catastrophic consequences. One of the deteriorated cables earthed out under the dash and acted like a hot knife slicing through a bundle of other wires, heating up and burning off all their insulation. They in turn then did the same. At the time the car was parked in the main street of our local township while I was in a fish an chip shop with a friend waiting for some dinner. My mate looked out the window and saw a fire truck straddled half way across the road with smoke billowing over the top.
It wasn't until 5 minutes latter that my order was ready that I went out and discovered it was my car. Very very fortunately the chief on the fire crew was a car enthusiast who through very quickly on his feet and instead of pumping several thousand gallons of water through the window he deployed some sort of gas canister to put out the fire. It still did a huge amount of damage. BMW couldn't supply me a loom and only had the loose wire so I spent a couple of hundred hours making a loom up from scratch. Very tedious work.
I am keen not to make a repeat performance!
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You were lucky! It reminds me of a story that happened to me 18 years ago: I was with some friends spending holidays in Greece with motorbikes. One afternoon we were coming back from the Meteors to the camping me and my girlfriend on the bike. While we were reaching our tent the German lady in the tent next to us came out making big gestures and threw a bucket full of water at us and the bike. We were quite surprised, but by the time we got off the bike we realized it was on fire! Same thing, a wire shorted and the loom cought fire under the seat. It is still a mistery how we could have been riding on a bike which was on fire without realizing it. It is also a mistery how that German lady could see it so quickly, and even more how she had a bucket full of water ready to be thrown at us. It could have been the hidden camera but unfortunately the fire was real. I spent the night rebuilding my loom on the camping table. Amazingly, I could find all kind of wires of different sizes and colors and all what was needed to solder them right there in the little village down the Meteors. I still have the bike and it still runs on that repaired loom!
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I think many of us have wiring loom fires - i was driving through the desert and a rock bounced under the car and crimped the wiring loom and shorted out the right side of the car - yep it was an MGB 4 circuits for whole car - 1 left side - 1 right side etc. i lost lights, fuel pump, ignition to distributor and almost everything important. i cut wire from the lighting at the sides and made an emergency repair with my swiss army knife to get me to the next town - there I hit the motherload - I pulled the wiring harness from a beetle and wired the car up - fuel pump to the left side marker lights and headlights to ??? I made it home but holed a valve (timing was off) so had to run fairly hot to keep car running - only 1 speeding ticket in 600 miles of driving like a maniac. now I always carry "lighter solder" and heatshrink and wire with me in every vehicle. After that I rebuilt the wiring loom and placed it inside the car so that my travel on gravel roads would not cause the same problem - who but the british would expose a wiring loom under a car - that 13 hr trip took almost 2 days of pushing, hitchhiking, begging, walking, swearing and driving terrified the car would blow up.
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Guys, I love both your stories. Its made me think a bit harder about paying more attention to the repairs. When I can get out of bed again I am going to really concentrate on chasing the wires back into the loom to ensure I end up with a decent repair. Bonnyboy after reading your account I am also going to put an additional sleeves on the all the energized alternator wires.
I have yesterday cut out the wires with failing insulation and looted my spare W108 of equivalent cable. The main alternator feed cable on the 108 loom had the same issue. The cable has two sheaths, an inner solid plastic one and an outer fabric. On my 113 they had both failed where the wires came out of the loom and were subject to heat. You can clearly see this on the previous pic I posted. The exact same issue was seen on my 108 loom.
I had to cut back into the 108 loom more than 12 inches before I got to some decent cable. So you guys are correct in saying that potentially these wires are perished all the way back through the loom and a potential fire risk.
For some reason only the main alternator wire and the starter motor solenoid cable seem to be an issue. Both these cables have a different insulation material than the rest of the loom. The starter motor wire has a very flexible jelly like insulation which has also packed up all the way into the main loom. I dont know why Mercedes used different material for just these two wires. I really dont want to hack my loom apart. I am thinking that even if the problematic wires have failing insulation inside the main loom as long as the insulation of all the other wires is intact that things should be good.
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I have been sizing up putting my exhaust and inlet manifolds back on this morning. I cant do it until my back has come right but am just doing the thinking to figure out the best way. I remember having a really torrid time of things getting them off and it looks as if putting them back on will be no easier. The exhaust manifolds will go on without much fuss. I need to take off the power steer top pipes to get the clearance required. But the inlet manifold is going to be much more problematic. To slip it on to the head studs it interferes with the brake booster and master cylinder. This is obviously only a rhd problem.
I have formulated two approaches which I would like to run past those of you who have had to tackle this on a rhd.
1) Take off both main engine mount bolts and try and move the entire assembly to the left hand side of the car by an inch or two.
2) Loosen the left hand bolt as much as possible. Remove the right hand bolt completely. Jack the right hand side of the engine so the engine twist slightly on the left hand mount and point the manifold toward the sky as much as possible.
Let me know what you think.
Also I am finishing off fitting up all the pipework that fits under the manifold. I have a mystery clip that I cannot figure out where it goes and if it is screwed to the rail. From my original dissasembly photos it looks as if it was just hanging in mid air doing nothing.
Any help on this would be appreciated as well.
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Andy,
Dont have my car here at the moment to check but here is an earlier photo of the shock tower top where I think you have a pipe with the stray fitting??? Or am I on the wrong side and it is the exhaust side.
Garry
Have added a second and third photo.
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Hey Garry thanks for your reply,
Your second and third photos are the relevant ones. Interestingly it seems that your pipes may be run in the wrong location. Did you have them re manufactured when you did up the engine bay. Possibly the mechanic has put them back in the wrong position. Just a suggestion at this point, but it looks as if someone has routed them down the side of the right chassis rail rather then on top. I am almost certain that the pipe sits along the top and is clamped down with a saddle which is screwed into the top of the rail. Take a look at the photo I posted of this pipe when it was painted gold. It looks like the rubber pipe at the front of yours is now running so close to the manifold that someone has wrapped a red heat shield around it. If it running along the top you would have another couple of inches clearance.
I checked with both my 72 and 67 W108's and they both also use the top of the rail for this pipe.
It could possibly be just the angle of the photo that you took. Would be interested when you get back to check it out.
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Hey Garry thanks for your reply,
Your second and third photos are the relevant ones. Interestingly it seems that your pipes may be run in the wrong location. Did you have them re manufactured when you did up the engine bay. Possibly the mechanic has put them back in the wrong position. Just a suggestion at this point, but it looks as if someone has routed them down the side of the right chassis rail rather then on top. I am almost certain that the pipe sits along the top and is clamped down with a saddle which is screwed into the top of the rail. Take a look at the photo I posted of this pipe when it was painted gold. It looks like the rubber pipe at the front of yours is now running so close to the manifold that someone has wrapped a red heat shield around it. If it running along the top you would have another couple of inches clearance.
I checked with both my 72 and 67 W108's and they both also use the top of the rail for this pipe.
It could possibly be just the angle of the photo that you took. Would be interested when you get back to check it out.
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Check the photo gallery 3rd march 2012 and you will see where the pipes go on my 230sl.
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There was concern that that hose was getting too hot and put some insullation on it which is now painted black.. That explains it and I need to re look at it. Drat. :'(
Garry
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I think I remember moving that pipe from the side to the top to clear my V8 exhaust manifold. May be that pipe wasn't installed the same way on all cars? Mine is a '71 LHD.
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Thanks drmb. Appreciate it. I hope you don't mind but I will repost your pic here to show the location of your pipe which is the same as where mine is located along the top of the rail. Do you recognize the clip in my second photo. That was my initial question to the group and we have got a bit distracted with the position of the pipe. Also any chance you could throw me bone and give me a tip on how to get enough clearance to put the inlet manifold on ???
I cant see it in your picture with the pipe in question looking as if it held in place only with the one saddle. Also am interested to see that it looks as if your pipe has some rubber between the pipe and the saddle. My saddle is very tight fit on the pipe and I don't think I could fit any in. I had my pipe re-manufactured in stainless an from memory the new pipe was only 1mm larger than the original. Did you get your remade and have gone slightly smaller and need the additional interference?
Garry the bad news is that if you want to change the position of yours you will probably need to take off the manifold. That saddle sits directly underneath with only an inch or so of clearance. You would have to be some sort of contortionist to get your hands in there with everything in place. On the other hand I would be worried about that pipe running in such close proximity to your manifold.
GGR perhaps your correct as well. The early exhaust manifold was completely different and looks as if it bellows out closer to the chassis rail. I would be interested to see a photo of the latter cast iron manifold clearance and compare.
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Interesting as there appears to be different pipe routing between dmb and my car.
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Garry, drmb's pipes are identical to mine and his car is an early 230sl as well. I think there are so many pipes going everywhere on that side you best wait till you get back home and can trace everything accurately. Its a bit of a nightmare doing it from photos. Did you get your pipes remade. I know from experience that they pipes are almost always buggered and often on the point of failure. They are tucked so far out of sight that they often go unnoticed and are a major candidate for slow water leaks. If you got yours remade then perhaps they didn't stick with the factory pattern. I know when I made mine that it was a nightmare to copy all the subtle curves especially with a thicker wall stainless pipe. Mine still dont line up perfectly with the inlet to the interior heater and I am going to have to borrow the bending equipment again and tweak them.
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I purchased new OEM ones. That particular one had very different curves that that shown in dmb’s photo so maybe the early 230’s were different that my ’65 as he also has a reservoir that I dont have.
Next week I am away for a month starting with the Euro Tour in UK so will not be able to get to the car until October as I have given it to the mechanic to see if he can work out the oil leaks that I have not been successful in stopping as well as doing a overhaul of my brake booster.
Will just have to wait I guess.
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he also has a reservoir that I don't have.
Are you referring to the clutch fluid reservoir for a manual car on DRMB's photo?
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Garry, if your mechanic is going to take off the brake booster he will have to take off the manifolds so a perfect time to also take a second look at the water pipe location. I think your car is automatic and you may be referring to the absence of a clutch fluid reservoir as Kampala is eluding to. I dont believe this would have any bearing on the pipes used by the factory as its hoisted well above where the pipes run. You are sooooo lucky to be going over on the UK tour. I hope you have an awesome time!
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I never put the motor in with the gearbox lets it move more,you can then put the manifolds on before the engine is on the mounts,therefore avoiding the booster.
The cllip you have has another identical part on the top,one half clips on the heater pipe the other onto the brake vacuum hose.
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Thanks Lloyd, that makes sense about the clip. It must have broken some point in the past and never been replaced. I have two of the clips you refer too. I think they are used to hold the rubber hose that goes around the back of the engine to the water tank and clip on to the hard pipe that goes around the back of the engine.
Dont know what I am going to do about getting the manifolds on then. Guess I am just going to try my first two methods suggest in my earlier post before dropping the gearbox. I did manage to get them off with the gearbox in so somehow they must be able to be put back. My memory is not what it used to be. Get really frustrated when I forget this stuff. Old age!
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Hi Andy, back home again now. I don't know if your setup is the same as my 280SL but I had the air/fuel intake off and on with the engine in the car. I may well have had the brake master cylinder and booster off at the time though.
cheers
Rodger
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Cheers Rodger. I am still bed ridden so wont be doing anything anytime soon so no hurry.
I have been doodling around this morning looking back at some 3000 high res pics I have of the entire restoration. I am wondering if anyone would be interested in viewing them. They have proved invaluable to me especially during the reassembly process. Things that you are 100% sure you will remember just vanish and things that you didn't notice at all but need to know crop up constantly.
I am happy to host them on my own server or donate the set to 113.org if anyone is interested. I have started by putting up a few here.
www.andyburns.co.nz/Mercedes230sl/index.html
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Get better soon Andy, I've had lower back pain last few weeks too, its the pits !
BTW you promised me a copy of your 3000 high resolution pics a while ago ;) But I realised you are flat out like a lizard drinking - for you non Aussies look that saying up in google :)
Happy to send you a memory stick to get them :)
Rgds, Joe :-*
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Hi Joe, thanks for your kind words. I can send them over to you. It might pay to wait until I have completed my entire resto, less the hard top, before I send them. Currently I am sitting at about 12Gb of data which will happily fit on a low cost stick. Seems no one else needs them so am happy to pass them on if they will be of use to you.
Decided to venture, or in my case crawl, back into the garage today. Probably an incredibly stupid thing to do but my mind is turning to mush surging the net. I have no idea how people sit in front of it for so long.
Started by trying to have another go at fitting up my hard water pipes that I had made up in stainless. After an hour of trying to bend them to suit I came to the conclusion that a bit of trimming was the only way to sort the fitment issues. I hack sawed off a couple of cm from one end and tig welded another bead around the pipe to hold the clip. Fitting much better now but has put me back a couple of days as I now need to strip the pipe again and paint it.
Installed the rest of my wiring loom. It isn't as easy as you would think and required that it came out and went in quite a few times to get it right. One area where I didn't take enough photos.
Then moved on to figuring out how I can get the manifolds on. I managed to do a complete trial fit with ease without having to take the engine off its mounts at all. I will document the procedure in the next couple of days for all you RHD guys.
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I'll be upgrading the server here soon so that we would have the space too, e.g in the technical manual. The biggest job would be to categorise/organise them such that relevant parts can be accessed/found easily.
Peter
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Peter, I have already categorized most of them. Let me know if your interested and I can upload them. More than happy to host them here as well.
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Spent today fitting up the exhaust manifold and checking everything for clearance. The early headers are very cool but take up a bit more room in the engine bay than the cast iron equivalents.
The power steering pipes out the top of the box come very very close to the bottom of the rear manifold if they are positioned to run where I think the factory intended. I dont even know if early 230's had power steer as an option.
In any event I have experimented with running them directly down the side of the car. Put a bit more of a kink on the flexible hydraulic pipes but mean that they have a couple of inches clearance to any hot surfaces. Dont think boiling power steer fluid would be a good look. Can anyone else tell me if they have looked at this problem.
Also stripped my alternator in preparation for repairs. Will throw in a new set of bearings and brushes as well as repairing part of the alloy casing that broke when I was taking the car apart.
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I decided that the repair of the alternator casting was best left to a specialist so I took down my nicely bead blasted parts to a local specialist. I left specific but friendly instructions with the office lady not to let the 'boy' at it and stressed how rare the part was. They did a pretty good job on it and I doubt I would come anywhere close with my skills and equipment. The repair only cost me 40 dollars so again I think I have made the correct decision.
Also bead blasted and dropped off my very last load of parts to the gold platers. That was quite a good feeling as that part of the restoration hasn't been the most enjoyable. I dare think about how many hours I have spent in front of the blast cabinet.
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I just noticed today that the replacement thermostat is 87 degrees where the one I took out is 79. Can anyone tell me if I am going to run into trouble with the 87. I really really hate overheating problems. My brand spanking new W108 engine has an issue I still havn't sorted. Possibly just an incorrect thermostat.
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Trying to give the back some time to recoup. Doing some of the more mundane stuff today. Decided to sort out the battery. The Bosch which came with the car had the terminals around the wrong way with the terminals close to the front of the car. With the clamp on there was almost no clearance to the front structures of the car. When I took possession there was a large amount of cardboard wedged between the battery and the front structural members. So I have upgraded the battery so the terminal are on the opposite side and also have gone for a S3+. Its now color coordinated with the car :)
Also stripped and repainted the stainless water pipes that I cut and rewelded a few days ago.
My Pagoda World E15 arrived in the mail today. Spent this afternoon reading the stories. Loved the Polish and Auz Boys story! Great read.
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Hello Andy,
Have another look at your wiring connections on the starter motor, the battery cable connection to the starter motor should be located 180 degrees from the position that you have them,
this will position the cables further away from the exhaust manifold, the cables should them route down to the block/ally: sump joint and be held in position with special brackets (4 off, two on the rhs and two at each front corner) that incorporate rubber grommets, the brackets are NLS but you can replace the rubber part with MB grommets, Alfred will supply you with the part #.
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Cheers Eric,
I will take another look tomorrow. I actually pulled that part of the loom out for about the third time yesterday and now think I have all the brackets in the right place. Its obvious once the manifolds are on.
The reason I decided to wire the starter wires toward the right hand side of the car was that if they positioned toward the engine then they could potentially snag the throttle rod that run along the engine under the exhaust manifold. I will take another hard look at it tomorrow. I never took any photos of the started when I pulled it apart. Thanks for pointing it out.
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As you say not a very clear picture, the brackets do not appear correct, have look at thelews pictures there is one that shows you the type.
There is ample room to route the cables to the inside and not interfere with the throttle assembly.
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Still flat on my back in bed with this ridiculous pain in L5. MRI results came back confirming disc herniation late last week. Tried to get out of bed yesterday and rejig my wiring as per Eric suggestion. Big mistake as I am now paying the price. Not sure now about how much progress I will be making this week. Big kick in the guts.
Got bored at 3am this morning (couldn't sleep) and went searching some photos of cars with the same color scheme as mine and came across this interesting specimen. Really sexy from 100 foot until you look under the hood and get a real surprise... kinda like a Thai Lady Boy :o
I dont think I have ever seen so much polished ali. Not to sure about the interior mods either. Just gotta love those racing alloy foot pedals. But the rest of it looks top notch. Not my cuppa tea but I do appreciate the craftsmanship, time and effort that went into all that nipping and tucking.
I think we should start up a new thread with interesting non factory mods :)
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Hi Andy,
Sorry to (read) hear about your medical issues (disc herniation), must be painful. I can feel for you somewhat, my wife is in a wheelchair now since mid April and I am her full caregiver. So getting up in the middle of the night to help her is almost standard procedure, getting back to sleep is often very difficult and I too end up on the computer.
Get plenty of rest and get well soon!
Back to topic ... yes it is a good idea to start a thread with non factory mods. Why not start one and ask that each post MUST be accompanied with a photo (should not be too hard to find a photo), As they say one photo is worth a 1000 words :)
PS. As to all the polish under the hood I don't like it either, then to each his own, he must be polishing it after each outing LOL ... he could be spending the time driving and enjoying himself :)
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Thank Rolf. Sorry to here about your wife. That must be a really difficult thing to deal with. I dare say that is where I am heading. Just have to look at my grandparents who suffered terribly from arthritis. Both sets had hip operations and the like by the time they were 60. No escaping that little genetic smorgasbord unfortunately. Have suffered from AS (ankylosing spondylitis) since my 20's. It debilitating and makes working on the car very very hard from time to time. Only in the last two weeks however I have thought that its now too much. I think i am at a point now where its safe to say that this is my last every foray into car refurbishment!
Come hell or high water I am determined to finish. Might just mean you have another 5 years of my incessant ramblings rather than 4 months ;)
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I hope Andy, that your back problem becomes manageable. And RD, I can understand that this has affected your retirement plans quite a lot.
Anyway, on to the topic of non-original mods… please post those in the Research & Development (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?board=18.0) forum, the correct place for these… Discuss Research and Development, including modifications that are not original or correct for the W113 series cars.
Peter
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Codeine is a wonderful thing. Doc has given me some new pills which have given me a new lease on life. Probably only temporary but any reprieve is a beautiful thing. Off course I have taken the opportunity to make some more progress.
Decided to finish off the hot water hard pipes that sit under the inlet manifold. I painted them up last week and after the minor surgery to make them fit. Replaced all the rubber piping with new gates hose.
Also after studying drmb's engine bay photo I decided to copy his setup with the pipes having rubber around them to keep any rattles at bay. Used closed cell dense foam rubber. Sealed it off with insulation tape.
Also tackled the brake booster vacuum hose. Quite a tricky fiddly job to get it right. The original clamps/bands are a bit of a mongrel to get right. Probably ok when new but I have refurbished the old ones and they were a bit out of shape and need some TLC to get them right. Also took the opportunity to replace the vacuum pipe with the original braided pipe.
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While things were going well decided to fit up the manifold and fuel lines. Surprisingly this all happened very quickly. The pile of parts yet to be installed is diminishing by the minute. Exciting stuff. Sore but happy!
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Early Christmas
With the sale of the body of the parts car last week I put an order in with George at Authentic Classics ( http://www.authenticclassics.com/ ). He was great to deal with and my shipment arrived from the other side of the world in four days. Arrived this morning. I saw the postman putting the parcel in the letter box and both the kids raced down to see who could get to it first.
This drop cost about 700 dollars and was quite a hard one to shell out for as it contained several items that in my opinion are just a ridiculous price. 50USD for the handbrake nut for example. Another 50 for the small black bakerlite knob that goes on the end of the seat adjustment lever.
Needless to say it was nice to get it all and it did lighten my spirits. I have of course started fitting all the parts with the help of my friend codeine.
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Hi Andy,
Back on page 20, your reply #484 on February 1, 2014 (that's so no one can say I don't pay attention), you sort of complained that you received a bunch of wiper parts from Bud's Benz and didn't know how to assemble them. You even kindly asked the membership to give you some advice. Apparently (according to my search), you received no replies to your plea for help. Did you determine how to put the seals on the wiper spindles? You showed them partially assembled, but commented that they didn't look right. In the end, how did you assemble the wiper spindles and their seals? And did you use the plain aluminum caps or did you use the fancy nut cover/seals that George sells at Authentic Classics.
My wiper system, when I finally pulled it off the shelf to clean and reinstall, was almost seized with rusty spindles and bores. Apparently my spindle seals weren't working either, since everything was so rusty. I'm making it as good as I can but I'm not about to buy an "apparatus panel" for Euro 845 plus shipping from Germany. I'm going to use lots of heavy grease on the spindles, but would like to know your experience with sealing the two wiper spindles.
I'm still following along behind you and pretending I know what I'm doing. I think I'm dropping back a little. Your are moving too fast. I'm ok with the powertrain stuff but body ancillary systems are not a part of my knowledge base. Keep up the excellent work and reporting.
Tom Kizer
Quebec, Canada
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Hi Tom,
The spindle washers that Buds sent me need to be modified slightly to get them to fit. Then I still wasn't happy and used sikaflex 11FC sealant on either side of the washer and also smeared it on the outer shaft for good measure. There is a large steel washer that then fits over the shaft on top of the rubber washer that gets clamped with the nut. After the rubber washer was squashed down I trimmed the bellowing rubber that was squashed out the side with a very fine and sharp scalpel. Left it for a day to cure and then tested but tipping water over it. Dry as a bone and good for the next 50 years.
My wiper setup was in fairly good condition. The only part that had suffered was the spindles which were leaking and very rusted. I wire brushed them and then linished them with 3000 grit sand paper until the shafts were perfectly smooth.
One thing to definitely check is that the spindles dont have too much slop in the bush/tube they run in. Its easy enough to get an engineering firm to sort out this problem fairly cheaply. Certainly much better than several hundred Euro for the replacement. Am sure you can get yours back into 'as new' condition without much effort.
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Needed to get the inner face of my gearbox support plate painted in MB180 before I finish off the gearbox install. Had a few other bits and pieces that I missed first time around.
Thought I might have an issues with the 18 month base coat going a bit stale but after a quick stir it looked good as gold. Needed to clean my detail gun with paint stripper as I have abused it so badly over the past year painting epoxy primer and black satin. Took a good hour of hard work to get it back to a point that it would spray a nice consistent spray pattern.
Three nice thin coats of the base and then the same with the clear coat and I am now in a strong position to get the gearbox finished off. Just need to organize a crane to winch me off the floor after I am finished :)
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Spent this afternoon working on the throttle body. Its bearing felt a bit 'gritty' after being in the bead blaster even after I went to the ends of the earth to tape off the spindle. So I spit it apart and flushed the bearing and repacked with fresh grease. Silky smooth now. Fitted it up and moved on to finishing off the linkage setup. Discovered quickly that I stuffed up one of the arms on the overhead transfer shaft. Will deal with it tomorrow.
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Wondering if someone can help me here. I have been researching the assembly procedure of the gearbox mount this morning and have hit a bit of a snag. Reviewing my dis-assembly photos I have come across a mystery steel plate that I vaguely remember during the tear down process. I photographed it on top of the transmission chassis plate so it probably has something to do with it. I would have had no other reason to take the photo otherwise.
I am wondering if its some sort of packer to slightly raise the height of the gearbox that slots in between the mount and the chassis plate. Perhaps to overcome some sort of drive shaft alignment issue?
I cant find the part in the parts breakdown so its probably some sort of bespoke fix courtesy of a previous owner. I thought I would just run this past you guys to see if it rings any bells. Perhaps its a replacement for part 26 in the parts breakdown which lists as an adjusting washer???? Can someone educate us all on what this 'adjusting washer' is for.
Any help much appreciated.
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Hi Andy,
Thanks for the windshield wiper response. I think I'll be able to work out the repairs and reassembly without buying new stuff.
Regarding your current problem with the rectangular spacer thing. Although I don't know the answer to your question, take a look at the drive train alignment drawings from the SLS site. They are from the engine mount section. I did a Google translate on their notes and added them to the drawings. I suspect that the piece you photographed might be, as you suggested, a spacer to align the drivetrain. Because of your extensive restoration, you might have to check alignment again, not just reassemble everything. I don't know how to align the drive train, even though SLS makes it sound simple.
Tom Kizer
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Thanks Tom, appreciate your time and effort :)
I have no idea on how to do this alignment. I agree with you that I need to consider it especially as I have changed all the drive train mounting rubber which may now be sitting at different heights.
I cant see how you can get in to measure the thing as the drive shaft runs completely encased inside the floor pan. I can imagine a string line might be of some use but not very accurate. The spacer I have is only about 3mm thick so measuring to this type of tolerance might be difficult without specialized gear. Also I can imagine that the measurment would need to be made with the car loaded and sitting on its wheels. Not easy without a hoist.
Anyone else struck this before? Will go and do some research.
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Andy, it seems to me that the primary adjustment is at the rear of the transmission, where you suspect that the spacer goes. Therefore, it might be possible to attach the flex joint to the transmission output shaft, then move the propeller shaft close to, but not in contact with, the flex joint. If the transmission and the propeller shaft are in alignment, than the gap between them at the three-eared flange should be constant (they should be parallel). If not, the trans needs to be tilted up or down. Once the eared flanges are parallel then the shafts will also be parallel. Then just advance the propeller shaft to close the gap and put the remaining bolts in the flex joint.
It seems to me that it will work. I agree that there does not seem to be anything else on the various drive train parts that can be used to align the system. But then again, I've been wrong before - often !
Tom Kizer
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Tom that's another good idea and I will take a close look when I can manage to get under the car again. I think by your responses your probably right a dozen or so times to my one! Obviously you have a excellent engineering oriented mind.
Second time in a day that I have had an obvious solution pointed out. Two days ago I got myself in a bind after I lost a small locking pin for the input shaft of the throttle body. When I pulled it all apart I was very careful not to loose it. I came across it a few weeks ago and put it 'some where safe' as I knew I would need it soon. That somewhere safe turned out to be needle in a haystack when I actually need it, and I drove my self crazy for hours trying to find it. Finally I decided to make a new one and measured it up at 2.5mm. Then drove for hours around engineering shop all over Auckland till I found a 3mm pin. Then spent another 20 minutes reducing it to 2.5mm.
It all worked well, in the end, but my new found pride was dampened by Rodgers (aka rutger kohler) brilliant engineering mind when he emailed me suggesting I use a 2.5mm drill bit. Off course I have several in that exact same designation sitting slap dab under my nose. I wish my brain worked like an engineers as it would certainly save me a whole heap of grief and worry. As they say 'everything is easy if you know how'
I am not looking forward to undoing the flexible disc again. Absolute prick of a job. I haven't taken a good hard look yet but I think once the bracing plate has been bolted back the disc is almost obscured as well which may make this impossible but will keep an open mind and stay optimistic.
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Just to qualify my suggestion to Andy, because the pin he was looking for was only about 12mm long or shorter I suggested cutting a piece off the shank end of a drill bit which is usually softer, completly round and easy to cut off. How did you get on with the studs Andy?
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Hi Andy,
I know you are laid up with a sore back, but I was wondering if you could help in a matter.
I noticed your side trim is not yet installed from the picture you posted dropping in your engine.
PJ from Canada is inquiring as to proper lower trim hole placement, and I was wondering if you, when you get around to it, could possibly create a template for the lower clip holes (3 front, 7 door, and 2 rear) with dimensions, so that those looking to redrill would have a guide so as not to drill into supporting structures. The uppers are defined by the holes in the chromed brass, but the lower ones have no reference.
This would be awesome to post in the technical manual somehow, either as a paper template, or dimensions for each hole from a reference point, both from bottom and sides. I don't know anyone else who has their lower clip holes open right now. I wish I had thought of that when Joe A. and I just did mine.
Please advise, and perhaps comment on PJ's post in the body section.
BTW anyone else reading this, who might have your lower trim off, please feel free to help as well.
Thanks,
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Mike I would be delighted to help if I could. But for the time being I am totally out of action with this back which has got much worse over the past two days. I am now struggling to even walk let alone bend over. I don't think it would be difficult at all. Just involve figuring out the center line of the holes from the bottom of the panel and then a few measurements along the line. I am sure someone else must have the trim off at the moment and be able to help if its urgent. Fingers crossed the doctors can sort this out quickly and I can resume where I left off. Any back surgeons in the room?
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Mike, my chrome is not yet installed so I measured the lower line of holes. My front fender, door and rear fender hole sizes visually appear to be the same and vary between 8.63 mm diameter and 8.89 mm hole diameter after painting. Just to verify, I installed a couple of yellow clips and white clip locks into one of the larger holes and into one of the smaller holes. The clips went in with a nice "snap" and locked nicely in place with the little white clip lock (plug). The yellow clip for the doors worked well for the fenders as well. By the way, the SLS kit comes only with yellow clips for all the holes.
As far as I know, the holes are original in my doors and fenders and are located on the passenger side as shown in the sketch that I have attached. Notice that I measured hole center locations from three different baselines so that door gaps would not interfere with the measurements. Please excuse the fact that I measured the door holes from hole to hole, not each hole from the baseline. On the door, the measurement of the farthest hole from the baseline only came out correct if I used 175.5 mm for hole spacing instead of rounding up or down to 176 or 175. Visually measuring to a hole center without special equipment is not terribly accurate. If you are adequately confused by my explanation of the how and why of my measurement technique, I'll add the attachment and shut up.
Tom Kizer
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Thanks Tom, your answer looks perfect! I certainly couldn't have done it any better.
I have had better days. All I managed to do today was to rustle through my remaining parts as a final stock take to ensure I hadn't missed anything major. I came across the other half of the special Siamese clip that I was banging on about a few days ago. Thought it was lost. Quite hard case as the reason I misplaced it was one half was in the gold plate bin, the other in silver.
Took drmb's excellent advice and riveted the two together. These little clips are 40 USD so am pleased I have saved a bit more money. Thanks Lloyd :)
Spent yesterday in the hospital after the pain of the back and sciatic nerve finally got the best of me. Confirmed herniated L5 disc putting the gearbox on the back of the engine. All part of the cars history now. I was offered a bed overnight but really wanted to return to 'my little precious'. Was given a five day supply of oxycotin which is interesting stuff indeed. Perhaps this is the first post in sl113.org history written under the influence of narcotics :)
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Tom,
You are awesome. Perhaps I can get Joe a. to find a way to put this in the tech manual.
I love this forum!!!
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Andy, please go easy on the car. We only have one spine. The other is only sheet metal.
Mike, I suggest that we ask someone else to verify the hole spacing and dimensions before it gets put in the TM. I'm just a little concerned that my hole sizes are "after paint" and don't really tell you what size to drill them. A before paint hole diameter would be infinitely better and more consistent. Additionally, I took a couple of measurements on the driver's side as well and noticed that, while the hole spacing was consistent from side to side, the fore and aft dimension of the first hole "position" relative to the panel edge varied by up to 4 mm. That tells me that for each "set" of holes there was a template (because of consistent spacing), but the horizontal positioning of the templates for drilling may have been centered on its panel visually instead of being measured.
I really wish we had documentation of the factory procedure, although the final effect is probably the same - since the chrome position does not depend on the clip position.
Can we ask someone to check another car against my measurements? Anyone?
NOTE: THE SKETCH IS NOT TO ANY SCALE - USE ONLY THE DIMENSIONS.
Tom Kizer
Quebec
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Tom,
I hear you. The good news is that the primary goal here was to avoid drilling into supporting ribbing in the doors and under the pillars, so if yours are clear of supporting underhell, jp will most likely be fine.
I agree though. More data the better. Anyone else have their lower trim off?
Thank you again for investing in helping another SLGroup member.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Andy, please go easy on the car. We only have one spine.
Exactly!
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You are awesome. Perhaps I can get Joe a. to find a way to put this in the tech manual
Mike, you can add this info yourself. All full members can although it currently relies on just a couple. The more that help, the better!
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Have been chipping away at things the last couple of days. Fairly limited stuff but progress needless to say. Finished off the gearbox linkage fit up. The last bit was quite tortuous as it involved bending into the cabin to install the last couple of tiny castle nuts and fit the tiny split pins. Usually would have taken 10 minutes but ended up being a 3 hour ordeal with plenty of rest stops. You need really good illumination to line up the holes and the turrets of the nut! Its great to be able to finally sit in the car and change gears. Another milestone!
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Also finished up the alternator rebuild. After bead blasting everything I had the fasteners plated. Also replaced both the bearing and the brushes. Everything else was ok. My wife got a bit angry at me as I did all the reassembly in the comfort of my bed as the back was just too bad to stand at the work bench. Needless to say I managed to avert world war 3 and kept all the grease confined to a piece of news paper carefully positioned on my lap.
I got my wife to drop the finished item down to an auto electrical crowd for bench testing. Bad alternators can cause all sort of weird difficult to diagnose issues which I simply don't want to contend with. I was quite surprised when they rang to say it was perfect and supplying a 65A unregulated charge. Not so much surprised that it was ok, but more around the 65A. I thought it was a 45A alternator. Perhaps they are rated after regulation but even then I would be surprised if this process sucked 20A.
The initial issue with the alternator was the part of the casting I broke off when I took the engine apart a year ago. At the time I was trying to loosen off the belt by turning the hex adjustor on the connecting arm. I didn't know it at the time but the part had seized and all the force I was applying to the nut was just loading up the alternator housing until it gave way.
Not until I took a close look at the adjustor arm in the last week did I click. After a bit of gentle persuasion I managed to free up the adjustor and polished off all the rust and gunk that had caused the issue. Treated the mating surfaces with a light coat of teflon and then added a bit of grease into the mix to banish the problem for at least the next 5 years.
I have never seen this adjustment mech on any of the W108's and it appears that the late 280sl also shared the W108 adjustment rod. I am thinking mercedes changed the system out for the same problems I have experienced. I swear it didn't take too much force to shear the alloy housing! It also doesn't look as if the early adjustment arm has anywhere near as much thread/adjustment as the replacement system.
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Sunday Arvo Project with the kids
This afternoon I sat down with the kids and pulled apart the two washer pumps I had. Both were broken. The one I took out of the SL had a snapped off input pipe. My fault again all those months ago which I pulled the engine out. All preventable. I should have simply cut the hose, which I replaced anyway, and carefully used a craft knife to remove the old hard plastic tube. Ancient history now just would be good to save 100US plus shipping by using parts from other old units I had floating around.
The second unit was out of a W108. They are slightly different with the motor body being longer and the motor mounting using screws rather than bolts.
The pump guts are identical which is what I wanted so figured I had a good shot of saving a bit of dosh.
Stripped everything apart and discovered the the W108 pump was 100% seized which obviously was the cause of the motor seizing and burning out. This is the part I needed so I stripped the unit down and cleaned in wax and grease removed to ensure I didn't melt any of the plastic components. Lubricated all the clean components with plumbers grease.
If you attempt this repair the one critical step is to ensure that you dont tear the bottom seal. I learnt from experience that its very delicate. Dont try and pry it off from underneath. A much better technique is to push the pump input spindle which puts pressure on the brass bottom plate and pops the seal in an even manner. Without the seal intact the pump will leak like a sieve.
Assembled everything back up using a light smear of the plumbers grease on the mating surface of the rubber. All looking good!
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Sunday Arvo Project with the kids 2
Gave the kids a lesson in how the pumped work. They were both fascinated with it so decided to wire it up to show them and give it a good leak test before installing in the car.
Tickled pink with the result. Dearly love saving money and time, especially this time of the restoration. The cosmetic result is adequate. Doesn't look brand new but tidy enough to put back in without looking out of place.
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One hour away from having emergency surgury to remove a good portion of my l4. Surgeon just asked to draw an arrow on my back.. I asked him if he could draw a three pointed star instead.
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Good luck Andy and try to take it easy recuperating.
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Indeed, best wishes, best of luck. Have a quick, but thorough, recuperation
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Andy,
I'm so sorry that you have to go through this. Best wishes for a speedy recovery and a great outcome.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Good luck Andy and a speedy recovery.
Garry
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Andy, your explanatory notes are simply the best. Also appreciate the way you allow everyone to learn from your experience - it gives a white collar worker like myself the inspiration to try some of these jobs when I get into my restoration......what a pity you cant work some of that magic on your back!!........... if only a smear of plumbers grease could sort that problem out. All the best. Rob.
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Andy
Get well soon, I have been reading all your posts from the begining, Best thread ever.
Anybody that can sit in bed with an alternator between their legs is ok with me, :D
Best wishes
Reg
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Best wishes Andy
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Thanks guys. Rob love your sense of humor. Hadnt thought of the plumbers grease. Bloody good idea but might not have been too good for this application
got through 3 hours of emergency decompression surgery last night. They cut of a fair chunk of the disc between l4 and l5. Back pain has gone which is good but stll go no sensation in both feet.
all this from lifting my mercedes w113 manual gearbox 5 weeks ago. Guess I am just not as strong and durable as I was in my 20s
All just adds to the story I guess
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I decided today to spend some time on the refurb of the spark lead setup. Nice easy light desk work. Probably even less interesting than my normal posts but at the moment its all I have to offer.
Absolute mongrel of a thing to work on with the metal tube factory lead holder that all the leads are threaded through. I think it only featured on early cars and was done away with quick pronto after dealer mechanics started swearing after having to thread the leads ever time a lead change took place.
I still think its another quite groovy and unique feature of the car so want to retain it come hell or high water.
I have chosen to replace the rubber grommets with non oem generic rubber units. I dont think even an expert would pick it and the rubber quality is just as good as oem units.
The leads themselves I have reused. All bar one which has a broken cap that plug into the dizzy cap. Luckily its plug number one so will be easy to pull out of the loom and replace when I get around to finding a replacement.
Cleaned everything up with wax and grease remover and then used draw cords to pull the leads through the lead holder. Am one grommet short which is incredibly frustrating, as I am not able to drive anywhere for at least three weeks, and also have the second lead to source before the unit is finished.
At least its some progress.
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Hows the back feeling Andy ? ???
Whats the longer term prognosis ?
Joe in Aus
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Hey Joe,
I dont know what it will mean long term. A bit worried about that. Just have to wait and see if the feeling and strength will come back to my legs. Still very numb. The main root nerve l4/l5 was badly compressed.
Also pick up a post op infection which I am dealing with now. Totally bed ridden.
Hopefully in a couple of weeks I can resume light duties on the 113 again. Looking forward to it.
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Not good mate....
It would be a big challenge I imagine to keep your mind occupied....fortunately we have the internet. Aren't you a programmer ? I remember when I did some programming in my younger years that once I started I couldn't stop ! Here we have AFL (Australian Rules Football) and the final was played last weekend and my team "Hawthorn" won, going back to back ! If I was laid up I'd be watching that over n over ;)
Get well soon !
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Just got out of the hospital after another 24 hours stay treating a 7cm blood clot in my arm. Fond thoughts of getting back to the pagoda are increasingly slipping away. Now have to inject myself for 10 days with blood thinning anti clotting agent and also have to take tranquilizers to keep me calm and blood pressure down while on the anti clot. What next? Perhaps we should remove my thread into the 'way off topic' category as it seems its now more about my health then my car.
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Keep the faith, Andy,
I look forward to reading your posts,
many of us out here send our thoughts and best wishes
for your prompt recovery.
Paul
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Get well Andy. The priority is your health and your family. The Pagoda can wait.
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Andy
Seriously wishing you a full recovery. While not being able to work on the car you can help advise others based on your pagoda experience. As you know, blood clots are not to be taken lightly --- take care ---- and keep us up to date.
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Just when I thought I had seen the last of it and on the home straight. Bang... back in hospital being scanned for clots in the lungs. This game is now getting a little serious for my liking.
I scenerly hope that when I bring the 113 motor back into life i don't have this sheer amount of bad luck. I really wish I could be reporting on putting my soft top back in rather this malarkey.
Feeling like a second hand pin cushion.
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At least you are in the right place to have this malarkey happen. Here is hoping that the hospital can load you with enough draino to dissolve those little suckers and you can recover fully so that the occasional burn't arm or cut thumb it the worst of your worries. Stay calm and remember the car is already 45+ yrs old so another little bit time won't matter.
They say life is too precious to waste it with the wrong car. You have the right car, so you can focus 100% on getting better.
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Thanks guys for all your kind words. It really has been great reading them all in the hospital while waiting around. Really boosted my spirits.
Good news is that after a quick contrast die CT scan they have for the time being ruled out a PE. I had a serious PE 12 years ago in England after breaking my leg and it almost killed me so I was quite anxious going into the scan today. Because of the history they didn't piss about and even though the past 8 hours has been hell the relief is overwhelming. Back home after a 9 hour stint. There is simply nothing as good as your own bed, shower and toilet!
Hopefully this is my last health related post!!!!!!!!!!!
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Good news is that Andy,
Get plenty good rest and take time to recover.
There is plenty very valuable and informative messages from you we can read again during your recovery.
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Good to hear, Andy… Now don't go an overdo it again straight away…. we don't mind if this series takes a little longer to finish!
Peter
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The most stupid 3 seconds of my life... so far
I just got the MRI scans back from the surgeon today and feel quite sick. I thought I would share in graphic representation with you guys the undeniable consequences of not using the correct technique to lift even moderately heavy items on your car.
More than happy to be the poster boy for stupidity in here if even one of you guys remember this post when working on your car and don't end up in the same situation. Trust me its far far far from pleasant. At worst life changing.
Three stupid seconds of lack of cognitive thought.
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OUCH!
Actually, double ouch!!
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Thanks, Andy, for the heads-up, the warning about lifting the transmission and the graphic image of what can be the result. I've lifted my transmission several times recently, moving it around to get it out of the way of other work, fortunately without the results you obtained. You've taught me my lesson. As Edgar Allen Poe said, "Nevermore!" As I age, (70 in 6 months), my young brain forgets about my old body - to my detriment.
As winter approaches here, I expect that you are in the midst of springtime. You probably can't wait for summer to arrive, but resist it and take the long view. I wish you all the best, without pain, and with a quick and durable healing.
Tom Kizer
Quebec, Canada
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Tom I am sure a man of your caliber would never make the same dumb ass mistake. Also the fact you have made it through to 6 months off 70 without issue would indicate that you have sensibly heeded the advice all through your life. Given your engineering background you have probably had this drilled into you all your life and its become instinctive? Me I am really just a glorified desk jockey more familiar with pressing keys than turning spanners. My enthusiasm just got the better of me.
At 43, with quite a bit of my working life ahead of me this isn't a good time for this to happen. Still have the family to feed. I have just yesterday had to let my prized W108 go and have sold it, cheaply in my opinion, to a very persistent guy here in NZ who has wanted the car for some years. It will get me out of the current hole I am in and ease the burden for me to go back to work prematurely and risk further injury. It a huge loss to me as I really loved the car and would have liked to have had the two restored mercs sitting side by side in the garage. That was the dream.
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Sorry to hear about you parting with that beautiful car Andy - it was surely in too notch condition too. Any one of us would kill for one of your cars ( watch your back! - pun intended )
The spine is an amazing thing - they say it can take up to 300kg I believe in a straight downward load but lift a 5kg baby the wrong way, and you can be screwed for life. As I have twin 2 year olds I have keep reminding myself about this.
Hope you buy that car back some day
Cheers
Rob
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Cheers Rob, yes you are perfectly correct about the weight not being an issue. I had actually straddled the box correctly between my legs. It was when I tried to push the gearbox forward to engage the spline that I got into trouble. The engine was suspended off the ground a couple of inches on the crane and I was picking up the entire weight of the gearbox. In hindsight I should have blocked the engine off the ground and used the crane to take the majority of the weight of the gearbox. Ancient history now.
The W108 is a freak that I will probably never see the likes of again. One owner NZ new. Absolutely no rust or dents. No body fill at all. Right down to the original carpets which still look new. Unheard of.
It makes my 113 look like a piece of swiss cheese even though the 113 is a pretty good example.
It really makes me angry they are worth so little on the open market still. Even in this condition. If you were to pay someone to get it into this condition it would be 100k.
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Don't blame yourself for your back. Many DIYers move heavy stuff around with no bad consequences. In your case you may have done a wrong move or something was weak in your back already. You couldn't know. C'est la vie. What's important now is to take care of it properly, which starts by not making it worse. So don't get back into your garage before it's really OK to do so. All my wishes for your recovery.
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fortunately I can only squat 299kg !!!! ;D
Joe ;)
Sorry to hear about you parting with that beautiful car Andy - it was surely in too notch condition too. Any one of us would kill for one of your cars ( watch your back! - pun intended )
The spine is an amazing thing - they say it can take up to 300kg I believe in a straight downward load but lift a 5kg baby the wrong way, and you can be screwed for life. As I have twin 2 year olds I have keep reminding myself about this.
Hope you buy that car back some day
Cheers
Rob
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How you feeling Andy ?
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Feeling a bit better thanks. Good enough to start thinking about doing 'stuff' again. I managed to drag my sorry ass out of bed yesterday and do a bit of light bead blasting. Probably the very last lot I ever have to do thankfully. Rats and mice of the engine bay. Even half an hour in front of the machine really tired me out but a good sense of satisfaction in actually doing something constructive. I was driving myself crazy.
I have been carefully working on all the very very light stuff that isn't going to compromise my recovery. Decided to tackle the cold start valve mechanism first.
After stripping it all back I discovered that the main inlet fitting has a very very fine gauze filter on it. By the looks its actually two butted up against each other. Trying to blow through mine it was almost entirely blocked. I have no idea how the car started so well with this restriction and am picking it may be something which causes a great deal of issue with in other cars.
I soaked it in solvent for 24 hours and then went to work with the air gun for an hour or so. The net result was that its much much less restricted now but there is still some resistance to blow air through with your mouth. I am now of the opinion that this is normal. I would be interested in any ones comment or experience with this. Given it worked before and I have improved things I am picking I wont hit any more snags.
I am going to put this fitting with all the other gold electroplating stuff as it could further block or restrict the gauze filter. I will just tickle it up with my gold paint and reinstall.
Tested the old solenoid and all is good there so just a cosmetic and protective coating should see it right for the next 20 years. Looks good as new now.
I also bead blasted the main CSV plate. Before I started I masked up all the inlets and outlet point to avoid getting media in the guts of it. Can imagine that would cause all sorts of grief.
Before I put it back in the car I am going to fully test the assembled unit under pressure with fuel to ensure there are no leaks or blockages. I have a spare delivery pump off an old 108 so will jerry rig this up.
Feels good to be posting again :)
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Glad to see you back Andy but take it carefully.
Garry
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When you remove the CSV plate you will,see that there is a spray jet in there. Make sure it too is not blocked, they often are. I put them in an ultra-sonic bath for 20 mins and that always cleans them up nicely.
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Hi Stick, thanks for the reply. How do you tell if they are blocked. I tried to force compressed air down it and couldn't perceive any air coming out the jets. I then tried to blow down the jets with my mouth and couldn't feel any give. They seem blocked. The unit was working fine. I then found another W108 unit and it also seems the same. Any clues on how to determine if they are blocked?
I guess the ultimate test is to wire it all up and see if you get atomized fuel. I am wondering if the jet apertures are so fine they you cant really gauge if they are blocked or not.
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Hi Andy,
As always, really enjoy reading your posts.
If you don't mind, and when you have a moment, would you mind listing the different paints you used for the bits and pieces and the applications you used them on.
I see doing touch-up here and there as one of the few jobs I can do myself on the project car. (BTW - finally kicked off the project with a partial strip down with my interior guy....one of the other few jobs that I can do/did and thoroughly enjoyed).
Many Thanks
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Paint Summary For Rob
I have used quite few different types of paint. Predominately if I am not being lazy I use just three products
1) A zinc rich metal prep like POR15 Metal Ready. Coats the item with a very thin layer of zinc. In my view this is the most important stage.
2) An 2k epoxy primer also rich in heavy metals
3) A 2k Top coat if I have it. You can spray a non 2k topcoat, or even enamel paint , on a 2k primer but not the other way around. End up with a huge frying mess
A good paint job is all about well executed consistent repetition.
If you find yourself going 'here we go again' your probably doing the right thing!
For bits that really need huge durability and take a pounding, like suspension and sub frame, just reach for the powder coating. Even some of the engine parts like the front pullies.
I would go to the ends of earth to re coat any gold electroplated parts as this is what will give you the 'correct' look. Even then sometime I avoid it like yesterday when I decided not to plate the inlet fitting to the CSV because it had the mesh in it. Probably at the factory they pressed the mesh in after the part was plated. I cant replicate that. In this case I bead blast and then treat the part with as much POR15 metal ready as humanly possible. Then paint it with a metallic gold enamel. I have found with experience that if you don't take that first step then your part will rust out in a year or two. You could blow it with epoxy primer but on very delicate parts if you layer it it with paint it start to look quite swollen and sticks out like dog balls.
Other paint I have used is High Temp coatings on radiator and anything that is hot. They are designed to be put directly on bare metal. I have found the trick to getting this right is making sure the surface is perfectly clean and rust free. Either bead blast or use a wire brush on your angle grinder or drill. Then make sure you use copious quantities of wax and grease remover.
The first coat you blow with any paint is incredibly important. Make 100% sure its just a dusting. Resist the urge to try and get a solid covering. Wait 10-15 minutes for it to flash off. This give the contacting paint a really good key onto whatever the surface is. Then repeat two or three times.
I have also made use of ceramic caliper paint in a rattle can. It usually comes in silvery metallic colors and I managed to get one that is very close to the zinc coating they used on various engine parts. Where you cant get stuff re zinced I have used this. Used it yesterday on the CSV solenoid. Its more expensive but is much more rugged than normal rattle can metalic spray. Probably twice the cost. But it is very resistant to solvent, oil and grease and also is designed to resist heat to 300+ degrees. If you use crap quality enamels I can almost guarantee they will be peeling within a couple of years. Also if you ever get in and clean your engine bay, which I tend to do from time to time, if you use anything remotely solvent based enamel paint will vanish quick pronto. The ceramic paint seems to be much more durable then even the VHT specific paint.
Another spray on paint I have used in volume is a product call Burnox. Its an epoxy rust killer and surface sealer. Probably my favorite spray on paint. Not designed as a cosmetic paint in any way shape or form it is used in area that are inaccessible or surfaces that will not take any further paint finishes. I used cans and cans of it in the early stages and blew is into every seam and nook and cranny that I possibly could. When the ends of my chassis rails were open I used about three cans on each one. The can comes with a fine straw nozzle that allows you to reach a couple of meters away or push it into seams. I gave these areas two or three coats a couple of days apart. The whole deal with epoxy is that it hardens to a much greater extent and produces a very very good barrier preventing oxygen from getting through. This stuff also at the same time kills and seals and rust. The only major downside is that you cannot paint over it with 2k or you get a nasty frying reaction.
The only enamel spray I have used on the car is a product called fiddly bits. It was recommended to me by the electro platers who use it to touch up gold electroplating imperfections. After years and years of trying a wide range they came upon this product which they swear gives the closest color and finish to the real thing. I have used it only in a couple of places.
The underside of the car I used a trick the painters told me about. You can combine the base metallic color, in my case silver, with 2k hardener. It produces a finish that they call crinkle cut in the industry. It would look odd to have a clear coated under carriage just too shiny. If you study the original examples quite often, depending on the painter, quite a bit of the body color ended up underneath. I replicated this but with 2k hardener added in. The hardener give is just a bit more sheen to a semi gloss level and also locks the finish in solid. Base metallic coat is not very stable without clear over it and would disintegrate if it ever got even the slightest hint of road oil etc on it. So this just ensure that the finish will be there in 20+ years and can stand up to some vigorous cleaning down the line.
Really the only other paint system I have used is the main body color. The base color is a 1k (ie no hardener) followed by a 2k clear coat.
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You cannot replace the 2002 with a 280sl.
Bonnyboy, You, Andy and I have something in common, namely the 2002 e46. I purchased mine in Vancouver in 2004 from a Doctor. Traded her in for a e96 M3. I can still kick myself that I ever gave her up. I do feel like you do about driving the 280sl and having that smile on the face. Pulled some photos out of the arcives the first one is when I purchased the e46 in Vancouver (parked at a friends house). The second photo shows her in my garage in 2007. I still have a chance here and then to drive my first ever BMW (to get wild so to speak and take those curves sideways :)) when I drive my original BMW a 535is (now my daughters car, the car just turned 27 years of age) third photo. You may note in the background the m3 e96 parked in the garage in the last photo. I had my fun with all together four ///M3's I am more then content driving my 280 sl ... what a car. As they say they don't make them like they used to any more. The 280 sure get's more attention from onlookers then my four ///M3's ever did.
Andy, good to see you back and around, I'm re-reading your thread again and look forward to the day when you take her for a spin :) I agree with you something you should have done before you took her all apart ;D ah never mind what's done is done. It will feel so much better when she feels smells all new. Just get help if any heavy lifting is to be done you hear! :) Keep up the good work and soon you be all done. I so enjoy your posts and detailed photographs of your work!!!
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Thanks Andy - this is most helpful and informative.
BTW - What type of gold paint ( IE: Name and Brand) have you found that best matches the Cad Plating?
Regards
Rob
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Hi Rob, the paint thats close to the cad plating is actually called 'fiddly bits'. Its such a corny name its almost unbelievable. I think its Australian manufactured as well!
Rolf, I do love my M3 but loved my 2002tii even better. Hopefully I will feel the same way about the 230. Its quite strange as I cant even remember how it drove now its been so long. More than likely it will drive completely different with all the rubber I have replaced in any event.
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Andy,
You should be able to blow through the cold start spray vale with compressed air. Once you have a clean one you will realise how easy it is to spot a blocked one!
In use Brunox on all of my cars.
Astonishing fact!
Years ago I experimented with engine parts plating: I gave my plater EVERYTHING, including fuel hoses, injectors and CSV solenoid.
Not only was everything OK but the injector spray pattern was perfect and the fuel hose rubber was black and less brittle! The only thing to be careful of is that things like the injectors, solid fuel pipes, CSV solenoid etc must be soaked in oil (or some other fluid) to stop them rusting inside. The plating process is very good at cleaning parts before plating them but that process leaves all of the internal surfaces of any complicated parts horribly exposed and parts that are not protected will be ruined if not installed and used straight away.
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Cheers Stick. Guess I will have to start looking at the ultrasonic cleaning solution or the very thin wire. I don't like the idea of poking anything down these fine apertures in case something jams and then snaps off. Couldn't imagine that would likely be quite a terminal failure.
What I don't understand is how the car was starting so well with these being blocked. I haven't done anything to them that would have blocked them.
I am interested to wire it all up to a delivery pump and see it in action. I am also keen to film the atomization of the fuel from the jets as well and post it here for scrutiny. A short 10 second film or the like.
I also know what you mean about the internal surfaces not being protected with the plating process. I found that out some years ago with the hard pipe lines. I discussed it with the electroplaters and they pointed out that if the residual chemicals are not washed off reasonably quickly then damage to the coating results. I think its acid? When I get pipes back I immediately flush them with tap water. Also try and time it with the platers to pick up this sort of stuff as close as possible of it coming out of the final bath.
Stick do you not worry about all the chemicals somehow penetrating into the electrical guts of things like the solenoid. I would have thought if that happened it would completely ruin it, especially if acid were involved.
I put in the small diaphragm used to dampen the throttle linkage and it completely ruined it. The diaphragm was destroyed when I got it back. I assumed the soft plastic membrane probably melted somehow, either chemically or by the heat it was subjected to. There was still fluffy acid type of reaction around the center pin indicating that not all the chemical managed to escape.
Another component I have seen others coating and I have never had the guts to do is the atmospheric compensator that sits atop the injection pump. I know that from the factory that was gold plated. Given the couple of thousand dollars riding on that part I decided to paint with my trusty 'fiddly bits' gold enamel.
With something like the injectors I also just havn't been brave enough either to take the risk. I know the coating is only microns thick but with the high value stuff I am happy to carefully paint it. If the truth be known a couple of layers of paint, in my humble opinion, is probably much be protection than the gold plating. And where you really dont see the components, I am not that bothered with my cars as they will never be any where near contenders for fancy pants car shows.
I hope I haven't given away any of your trade secrets. If you use Burnox on all your cars then I know it must be good s@$% ;)
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Thanks Andy / Stick,
Yes, 'Fiddly Bits' is a common brand here. I also intend sending everything to the platers except the expensive delicate parts, or where there are electrical components attached that are too trick to remove.
I didn't think I could send anything with rubber attached (such as fuel hoses) but it sounds as though Stick had no problem with that.
What do the platers do with the rubber components (Eg:hoses) they can't remove? Do they find a way to remove and reinstate, or somehow protect it from the plating process?
For what it's worth Andy - your work can easily hold it's own in those fancy pants shows ;D
Rob
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Rob, Stick is correct about the rubber not being harmed by the process. I have sent in all my hoses etc and they all come back absolutely mint. The dipping process is only done at about 70-80 degrees so nothing more than the hoses already take. As stick mentions the acid (or whatever chemical they use) only serves to give the rubber a really good clean and it comes back with an almost new feeling to it.
Parts that I can think off are the power steering hoses, all the fuel lines, the little rubber spindles that the air filter housing mounts to etc. So don't be afraid around these bits and pieces. Really rejuvenates them and will save you a lot of time effort and money.
The diaphragm I mentioned was destroyed probably had a thin plastic membrane which would be far more susceptible than rubber.
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Next Mission
Decided to tackle the thinking around an issue which I have been dreading for a long time. The breather pipes that vent excess fumes out of the rocker cover and back into the inlet manifold. For some reason they are terribly rusted up inside. Probably because of the contents of the fumes that travel down them. I think I have tried in the past to replace them from the factory but they are NLA. If anyone has any spare or thinks they know where they can be obtained sing out.
Otherwise I am once again into re manufacture from ground level again.
I have measured the pipes to have an OD of 15mm and a wall thickness of around 1 to 1.5mm
I phoned around all the specialist pipe manufactures and suppliers here in Auckland and the closest I can get is 16mm OD at 1.2mm wall thickness. Fine for one of the pipes but the second is crimped into a special fitting which will require some CNC work or the like to make everything fit. All possible but just fiddly. I need to go an borrow some pipe benders again as well and then when its finished get it re plated. It all adds up! The pipe only comes in 5 meter lengths and its only 20 dollars. Have considered making them out of stainless but would be impossible to weld/braze it to the mild steel fitting.
Mmmm. Anyone else with any smart ides. If someone has access to EPC I would be interested to know if these parts are common with any of the other models. I have access to finnies and roundies which I am betting are my best choice???
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Andy,
I believe the breather pipes were available from SLS, have you tried them?
http://www.sls-hh-shop.de/en/230-280SL-W113/07-mech-Injection-Air-Intake/09-Air-Intake-and-Aircleaner/?force_sid=ickg4g433veeddjdql5bcnp7n6?_artperpage=10&listorderby=oxstock&listorder=desc
Garry
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Hey Garry, thanks mate. Checked and SLS have neither in stock. If you click on the part you notice the stock levels are 0 and the add to cart button vanishes. Even if they had them they are listing at over 300 dollars plus shipping to get them here so am still on the lookout. One of the tow pipes is easy to bend up. Just that banjo one going to keep me up at nights.
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I believe they can get them if you get desperate and dont forget that you dont pay the VAT for export so take that off, not sure if it is 15 or 18%.
Garry
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Think it is actually 19% VAT Garry.
Andy - Thanks for the tip on the plating of components with Rubber attached.
Too bad about that diaphragm as I have same part - guess I will gold paint that one unless it can be successfully pulled apart and reconstructed
Rob
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Picked up the 16mm mild steel tube to repair the breather pipes with. Only needed about one meter but it only came in 6m lengths. Discovered that the only bender I have available to me does not have a 16mm mandrel so I am a bit stuffed again. If you try and bend with the wrong shape mandrel you just end up folding the pipe. Also discovered that the factory radius is very very tight. Most mandrels work of a radius about four times the OD of the pipe so 16mm mandrel will bend to about 50mm radius. The factory pipe looks to be about 20-30mm so I may yet have to take it to a specialist and pay around 20 dollars a bend.
Moved on to the distributor which was all rusted up. Stripped it back and have taken all the small bolts off to be plated.
Used the wire brush on the bench grinder to pull the main dizzy body and the vacuum advance mech back to shiny steel. Gave both liberal coating of zinc POR15 metal ready coating and then painted up the vacuum unit. Will sort out the paint on the dizzy tomorrow. Only managing a few hours before I feel knackered.
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Ordered a Pertronix hall effect electronic ignition today. Huge variation in price on the internet so it really pays to shop around. Quite hard case as all the most expensive ones on ebay are targeted at 113 owners and cost around 200US. The pertronix kit for my dizzy is used on quite a few other cars so a quick search on the part number and I had one ordered and shipped for 86USD.
Moved onto another irksome task. The first item I restored on the car was the radiator overflow tank. When I purchased the car it was leaking and before I took it off the road I stripped it down and soldered up the leak around one of the take off tubes. Painted and reinstalled. I was looking forward to putting it back on until I took it out of storage yesterday and discovered that the lower mounting arm had somehow broken off. Probably my rough handling at some point.
Nothing worse than having to unnecessarily start restoring parts for a second time.
Stripped all the paint back ready for the bead blaster tomorrow. Always think when your soldering to have perfectly clean surfaces to work with to get a strong bond.
Also trial fitted up my alternator. To finish it off I still need a couple of bushes that secure the adjustment arm to the motor. Will turn some Teflon bushes up on a lathe I think.
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Managed to get the soldering on overflow tank sorted yesterday and the tank into the bead blaster. Even a couple of hours of light work is still exhausting. Struggled to get the epoxy primer on. Will pick up the next batch of gold plating tomorrow and start the assembly of the distributor.
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In the next couple of days I am going to have a crack at sealing my rocker cover to the head. The importance of getting this job right is obvious and if you get it wrong you will be dragging all the linkage off the car again and again until the job has been done correctly.
I have a brand new rubber seal which is now fitted up to the correct sand cast rocker cover. These early covers seemed to have a thinner wall than the latter smooth equivalents. Am picking they ditched them as they all started breaking with customers claiming on factory warranties right left and center.
I have heard that the early ones are near on impossible to seal properly. The cover I have had to be repaired after a previous owner had over tightened the three securing bolts and cracked the cover to the rear of the engine. I think this is a common place for them to leak, and rather than pull the cover and replace the rubber seal the temptation was just to crank down on the nearest securing bolt.
I have heard of various ways to seal the covers. One technique was to run a thin bead of superglue between the head and the flat mating surface of the rubber. It sounded dubious to me but am prepared to try and technique that has been proved. Anyone got good ideas on this?
One think I do not want to do is use copious quantities of silicon or mastic type sealants that end up making their way into the engine.
I am also interested in the history of the early rough cast rocker covers and when they were phased out. Perhaps Achim with his incredible factory knowledge might know?
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Picked up the latest batch of gold plating. Also blew a couple of coats of satin 2k black on the bits and pieces I prepped up yesterday. I have been experimenting with a new rapid dry hardner. It drys quicker but the finish doesn't seem as good as normal. I may end up sanding back the radiator overflow again. Started fitting up the diz this evening. A having problems remembering where all the fine screws go. I have a could of old 108 distributors kicking about for reference. Still also need to test the cold start valve and jets.
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A Bad Day
Things tend to happen in 4 or 5's for me. Today everything seemed to implode for one reason or another. I started the day thinking I could reseal the rocker cover and push ahead toward getting the engine started. I have been dreaming of this moment for several months now. I started the day bristling with optimism.
This soon had the gloss taken off it when I discovered that my rocker cover was not wanting to come off the head. In a million years I wouldn't have thought it would have caused me any grief. It seems that there wasn't enough clearance with the strut that hold the bonnet lock mechanism. Almost as if the engine is too far back?? To facilitate the removal I took off the injection hard lines. Still no joy. To get the cover off you have to lift it high enough to clear all the head internals. I tried to roll is, rock it, vibrate it and even reverted to praying but nothing seemed to work. At a complete loss.
To rub salt into the wound while I studying the rocker cover problem I happened to glance over and notice that the new hot water stainless piping I bent up which should mate up with the newly painted radiator overflow tank was all askew. The angles are wrong. Will have to drag that out again, rebend, strip back to bare metal and then paint again. Mercury rising!
Just for the hell of it I decided while the injection pipes were out I would give them a blow out. 4 or 5 of the 7 lines are totally blocked. Cant move them with compressed air. I was sure I blew them out before I sent them off to be gold plated but I am quite possibly mistaken. If they still have sand in them from the sand blasting process then I am picking some pretty permanent type solid blockages might occur. Dont know what to do with them now. Options I have come up with : 1) try ultrasonic bath, 2) try and somehow force solvent through under massive pressure 3) throw them away and start again with another W108 set. None of these options are particularly appealing to me at this stage.
Thinking that things couldn't get any worse I then discovered a large O ring on the garage floor. Wondering what it was I went back over what I had recently put back on the car in the past week or so. I am not 100% certain but think its off the cold start sealing plate. When I put this back on I did wonder if there was an o ring but the plate did not have a recess to take one so I just sealed up the two mating surfaces with 3 Bond. Can anyone tell me if this is suppose to have a sealing ring?
All in all I think I have probably been put back a week or two (given my current impediments). Not a great day. Would be hugely appreciative if anyone can give me advice on the rocker cover removal, the blocked injection pipes and the O ring.
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Andy,
I can only advise on the rocker cover. Typically, when the rocker cover removal is hindered by the hood/bonnet lock mechanism, you would use a jack with a wood block under the engine/trans connection and jack up a little. I had read this advice from this forum and used it when mine did the same thing --- it absolutely worked for me. It's a common problem when a mount has weakened. I believe the advice was by Joe A. under the valve adjustment procedure.
Good luck on the other items.
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Thanks for that advice Kampala. I will try it but would love to know which rubber is worn. I have brand new engine mounts and gearbox support mount. The sub frame mount were in great condition as well. I think I must have done something wrong. Prior to blowing my back I was working on the center bolt that secures the gearbox mount to the cross member plate. It seemed as if the main bolt may have also provided some adjustment. I didn't quite understand what I was doing with it and was in the process of pulling the mount back out to figure out how it worked. The car is sitting on its wheels now and the engine seem to have a bit of a lean with the front being higher than the back. Not in a position right now to get under the car so this side of it will have to wait. At least it gives me time to research and understand the problem before tackling it.
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Yes, the o-ring should be there. See this link:
http://www.sls-hh-shop.de/230-280SL-R113/07-mech-Einspritzung-Saugrohr/07-a-Einspritzanlage/?force_sid=u3t99rnlau2pm1edcas64emhp3?_artperpage=10&listorderby=oxstock&listorder=desc
Johan
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Awesome Jowe, thanks very much. Really appreciate your time. Just have to pull it all apart and reinstall. The rubber o ring is very flat so I may have to seek a replacement. Although even as it stands now with no oring I dont think its going to leak. Two down one to go. Just need to figure out now how to deal with these injection pipes. Once again thanks.
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Hello Andy,
In my box of left over parts there is a pipe that is not from this 280sl that I am working on, it has the clip arrangement that you have on your pipe, if you are interested and it is the correct pipe you can have it (I did have it powder coated with the clip in situ), please let me know and I will send you a picture.
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Thanks Eric, I may take you up on that but first I want to see if the two W108 pipe sets I have are identical. I am picking they will be bar the fuel line to the cold start valve. My gut feeling at the moment is that I have completely rooted this set of lines. Even if I manage to get air flowing there could well be residual sand stuck to the side walls which over time lets go and is washed into the injectors. I may try and see if I can put them in an acid bath as a last ditch attempt. We will see. I am interested in anyone who has made the same mistake before and if they managed to recover. Rodger has suggested putting a thing piece of wire in on the end of a drill. I will reserve judgment on this technique. I tried to get wire into it today but couldn't get it past the first acute bend. Nevertheless Rodger is a friggen guru with these things so I might just hand it over to him and see what happens.
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Believe it or not the fuel pipes are in fact a service item! It's in the BBB but I can't remember the details. I think it's something along the lines of every 60k they should be removed and have diesel run through them at high pressure in order to clean them out. II've never bothered and in 35 years I've never come across a blocked one.
The 108 ones are the same so you can just use those.
In another post I alluded to some injectors that I had plated years ago and then just left them in stock. When it came to using them they were scrap due to having seized irretrievably. The moral here is that when you get your metal parts back from the players always soak them in oil, diesel would be excellent, in order to protect them from corrosion until you need them.
An ultrasonic bath would probably solve your blocked lines but few people have one big enough.
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Thanks Stick. I have been contemplating pulling an old 108 injection pump off the shelf and setting up a small single phase motor to power it and pump fluid through the lines. Would probably do the trick but an a huge amount of effort in comparison to starting again with a a good set of 108 pipes. I have a large ultrasonic batch available to me so may try this first. I am just so angry at myself for not blowing them out prior. I think drmb even warned me about this a couple of years ago. Just forgot or got distracted I guess.
Your advice about soaking the parts in diesel is a really really good one which I will be following in the future. In saying that I have promised myself and the family that the 113 is the last one.
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Ignition Bliss
My 80 dollar pertronix unit turned up in the mail this morning. I had it mounted up within 10 minutes of it coming out of the box. They are so simple and easy to fit and there are very few external tell tale signs that one is even fitted which I really like. Most of the competing products require a clunky external square box.
Cant wait to actually see it working!
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Andy, Have you seen this discussion about the 123 distributor: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21324.0
If not, check it out, it may save you some issues.
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Thank GGR, were you thinking about the spring issue referred to in that post. My distributor and spring are standard so I am not sure if it applies to me? Let me know if I have missed something and I will take another careful look at it.
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Yes, I was thinking about the spring issue. However, I don't know about the details, as my car is different. If it doesn't apply to your car then you're good.
Edit: I had read your earlier post too fast and assumed you were fitting a 123 distributor, not Pertronix. So my comment is irrelevant.
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The breather pipes that vent excess fumes out of the rocker cover and back into the inlet manifold. For some reason they are terribly rusted up inside.
Hello Andy,
The breather pipes are rusted out from inside because of condensation water within the engine after start up. :o It's not excess fumes.
I had exactly the same problem as you have, same amount of rust. I also could only get the 16 mm tube as a replacement.
I cut off short pieces from the new material in order to replace only the rusty ends..., if you want you can cut into the new pipe with a grinder (longitudinal) and weld it together again. By that way you can reduce the outer diameter a bit. I didn't go too crazy on this, just wanted to have my pipes finished and not spending another 300 $$ for stupid replacments.
A pic tells more than a thousand words, please see attached. ;)
Achim
(having mostly the same problems as Andy)
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Hello Andy,
A couple of points to discuss ...
a)
I am also interested in the history of the early rough cast rocker covers and when they were phased out. Perhaps Achim with his incredible factory knowledge might know?
No...., Achim doesn't know that. Again he does not know that with these details ... :o ::) :P :'( They had this rough cast rocker cover quite for a while ... but 49er's former 250 SL had already a smooth rocker cover ...
b) Your alternator
All the necessary bushings in the mounting hardware of the early 230 alternator assembly are still available from the dealer. Some of the rubber is quite expensive but at least available. Fiddled also around with some selfmade rubber spacers first (I can't machine down teflon ...) but failed with that. So I went the way and bought new rubbers. It's worth the effort. ;)
c) Your distributor
I am very surprised to see that your Pertronix unit went in easily. It did not at all in my case. However, I have got the 046 dizzy and you have got the earlier VJUR6 BR49T (= 040). But to me the both dizzies look exactly the same from inside (I have both distirbutors).
Quintessence: we had to modify the base plate of the dizzy and also the mounting bracket for the hall sensor a bit to make everything working properly.
Please, what was your order number? Maybe I got the wrong Pertronix set (the person who sold that to me is _the_ expert on this in Germany ...).
Well ...?
Unbelievable how much effort is necessary in every little not, bolt and bit of our cars ...
Best,
Achim
(fellow sufferer)
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Thanks for your response Achim. I am almost certain that you have been sold the wrong pertronix kit for you diz. I have fitted them to my 280se, 250s and now my 230sl. All fitted perfectly with no modification required at all. You have to be very careful with the kit number though. The one for the 230sl was a 1684A. The 1684 (with no A on the end) was what I fitted to the 280se which I suspect will have an identical diz setup to the 280sl.
The alternator bushes are currently off with my good friend Rodger K who is turning up the finishing touches for me. He has also taken off my hands the job of trying to free up the blockages in the injection pipes with a very ingenious home made hydraulic pump setup. I owe him a great deal as I am simply not able to do some of this stuff at the moment and keeping things going really keeps my spirits up.
I had another hospital visit today for a follow up MRI and decided to use the outing as an excuse to do 230sl stuff. Picked up my pipes from the benders. They didn't turn out as well as I would have liked as they couldn't reproduce the very tight radius factory bends in quick succession so I ended up getting two pipes that I had to weld up. Doesn't look as good but after I dress the welds back and gold plate them I think they will look quite factory. I only paid 50NZD for the bending which is considerably cheaper than the original part.
Also had another coup with the hub caps. The guy who rented me his paint booth has over the past couple of months been constantly phoning me for help with his computer. I have actually saved him hundreds after his one completely shat itself and I helped him buy a new one in component form and built it up for him. Anyone I called in a favor today and asked him to paint the hub caps for me. I could have done it myself but am in desperate need of a new gun and respirator which would have cost hundreds. As it turned out he was more than happy to do it for me for free so the decision was made.
Picking up the caps to put them in the back of the car I noticed that what I actually had was less than perfect. Two of them had bad chrome and another one had dents. I phoned my chrome man and he quoted me 200 each for the chroming and another 100-200 to take out the dents on the one cap. I didn't like the sound of that and immediately started looking for alternatives. Funds are atrociously low at the moment so any savings it fantastic.
A friend of mine owns a mercedes parts company so I gave him a call. He has heaps of old parts including an impressive set of old hub caps. Very generously he swapped my less than perfect ones for much for perfect examples. Very very very appreciative. Thanks Kev!
Dropped the caps at the painter and went over the caps with him. We found a couple of them with dents that I hadn't noticed. He immediately told me not to worry and is going to have them looked at by the dent devil who does amazing paintless dent removal work here in auckland. I will be interested to see what he can do.
So all in all a great day, making up for the really lousy one I had a couple of days ago.
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Hi Andy . Still loving your thread by the way !
Sat having a cup of tea before bed and I'm thinking about why your rocker cover won't come off .
Your engines too far back.
Only thing I can think of that would do this is your front axle leaf spring bolt eccentric adjustment.
This draws the subframe/engine forwards and backwards and in your case out from under the bonnet catch.
" I think "...... what do you think ?
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Another possibility is that the engine mount brackets are not original w113. Brackets look similar on w108, 111 etc. but they are not the same and the position of the engine is slightly different relative to the front axle. Check the part numbers on them. also make sure they are not interverted right and left, as they look symmetrical but are not.
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Many years ago when I changed my gearbox for a Getrag in my old 280, I put in new engine mounts. I then had difficulty getting the valve cover off and jacked the engine up ever so slightly with a piece of wood to protect ti. It worked and after some months apparently the mounts settled a bit and with effort and a lot of jigling I was able to remove the valve cover.
Garry
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Garry, I agree with you. Have been thinking about it all day. The front of the engine is high compared to the gearbox so it must either be one of three things or a combination.
1) New engine mounts havn't settled and are a tad to high
2) The subframe to body mounts have collapsed which would bring the subframe and the engine closer to the body.
3) The gearbox mount is collapsed which would move the gearbox closer to the ground and tilt the engine.
I replaced my engine mounts with brand new units and reused the rest which looked as if they had been recently replaced. Am picking my issue is number 1 listed about. Guess time will tell.
I am wondering however if the additional packers under the gearbox mount I referred to in one of my earlier posts were to try and overcome this exact problem.
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Pottered around today doing bits and pieces. Finished off the first of the breather pipes. Took extra time to linish back the welds to the point they are hardly noticeable. Just need to sort the other pipe which will require a bit more though to mate it to the banjo fitting. I have cut the banjo off the old pipe and it looks as if its been brazed in place. More though needed.
Also tackled the stuff up with the sealing of the cold start plate. Pulled it back off and cleaned up all the sealant. Kicking myself. I think I am going to leave this off now and get the jets tested properly.
With the help of my wife I have also managed to mount the drivers seat. Great feeling sitting in it without them wobbling around all over the show.
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I decided this morning to take another look at the rocker cover issue. I have been reading with interest the current thread on the drive shaft rubber coupling and have gleaned a few essential pieces of info from that. I am going to pull off the large transmission support plate and check this whole assembly again. Not sure how I have positioned my bolts and nuts other than copying what came off the car. Not so trusting of the last mechanics that worked on it now.
Anyway while I was there I decided to jack the gearbox up and see how far it took before the engine leveled up enough to remove the rocker cover. I would estimate it was at least 15mm before the back of the engine was level enough.
I have one 3-4mm packer in there already that was with the car when I purchased it. I am now in a bit of a quandary to figure out what to do next with this problem. The car now has most of its weight on the front suspension so I am assuming that the levels I am looking at are around what I will end up with. Just the fluids, radiator and bonnet to add to the mix.
Should I bite the bullet and pull and replace the gearbox and sub frame mounts. Are my aftermarket brand new engine mounts to high? How do you tell?
I got a bit overwhelmed and decided to do something fun so I fitted up my new sheepskin rugs. I have also ordered a matching sheepskin fluffy dice to match. What do you guys think ;)
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looks like your engine could be too far back , rather than high.
The caster adjustment eccentric cam bolts on the leaf springs will do this .
They move your whole engine and front axle ,forwards and backwards relative to the centre of the front wheel to create caster.
So the car is leading the wheels like on a shopping trolley.
Power steering needs 5mm shorter springs than manual as caster is less. 243 v/s 248mm.
The eccentric cam bolt has about a 12mm offset .Turn it and it pivots the subframe about its mount, this in turn moves the engine in the opposite direction.
You also loosen the rear engine support to allow the engine to move fore and aft in its slotted hole when you set caster.
Turn the cam bolts it may move your engine forward 1/2" and out from under the bracket .
Engine forward means more positive camber etc.
Worth a try .
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Poor drawing but could it be ?
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Andy,
did you check your engine arm brackets? If they are out of a sedan your engine will sit too high (and dent your hood when you hit a pothole). Look at the part numbers on them.
Also, power steering cars are equipped with rear leaf bushings with more excentricity to allow for more caster. Given that you fitted power steering, if you did not do it already, look into these different bushings as they will push the engine a bit forward and help your issue in the process.
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Dave, I hadn't considered this. I marked them when they came out and reset them to exactly the same place. In saying that who know who has been at it in the past! Definitely worth throwing into the mix as well. Thank you very much sir.
I desperately want to get this right but at the same time have a pitiful knowledge on what I am doing and how to set these cars up correctly.
GGR, I definitely have the right arms. 127 part numbers on them from memory. I have 108 arms that I compared with these when they were out of the car. As you say there is a huge difference with the 113 arms sitting much lower in the engine bay.
Have had an interesting day on the car. Will write it all up tonight.
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Geeze Andy you're getting so close to finishing......must feel like someone is dangling a carrot in front of you ;D
Joe
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Joe, it looks close but is in fact quite some distance off still. Starting the engine just took a step backwards today. I discovered that the blocked cold start hard lines are not the same as my 108 pipes. Dont know where I am a going to get another one from or if its even possible to manufacture one from scratch.
Its not all doom and gloom though. I managed to get the wiring all up and running today. Mounted up all the remaining relays and paint stripped all the earthing points and then wired up. Neat to sit in the drivers seat and see the instrument cluster light up, the horns blasting and here the ventilation fan turning over.
Also Rodger dropped by with the modified alternator bushes which I fitted up as well. Worked out perfectly thanks Rodger. Absolute master on the lathe.
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Just fantastic though Andy....its a fast growing carrot ! Everything little thing you are doing now is taking you one big step closer !!! I'm your motivator, not just me, all of us on here !!!! We're all riding it with you ! :)
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Havn't done much over the past couple of days as my back has been quite sore again. Today I decided to tinker around with some easy stuff. The dash wood has been a problem for quite some time. I was going to replace it but just cant afford it anymore and will put up with the few imperfections mine has.
First job was to get the fit correct. From the factory my set didn't fit too well with the two bows needing quite a bit of force to get the mounting studs into the holes in the dash. So much so that the left hand bow had so much force on it that it bent in the middle and lifted off the dash. This had a knock on effect of ripping out one of the studs which has always been missing in action.
I used my dremel to carefully cut back the edge which tucks under the A pillar molding. Took about five or six goes to get it right. Once I had the two pieces of wood sitting as they should with only a minimal amount of tension on them I glued in a new stud to replace the missing one. Used Q bond to do this. Tested that it wouldn't pull out by putting some fairly sturdy pressure on it. Held up well and is probably now stronger than when it left the factory.
While I was fitting up the wood during the course of the day I realized I have made a mistake by soldering the speaker to the wires. From the factory it had two small crimp type push on connector. I wanted something a bit sturdier that was also insulated given the tight clearances so decided to solder. Problem being that you really need to remove the speaker to fit the wood. There are two of the nut holding the wood directly behind the speaker.
Cut the speaker wire and started again. This time I purchased an insulated quick release connector block. Soldered one end back on the speaker using heat shrink to make sure I insulated as much of the speaker terminals as possible. If you end up shorting these out you will quickly blow your amplifier which is an expensive proposition to put right in this day and age.
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Yesterday I decided to have a crack at clearing the cold start jets. I have no idea how its operated in the past as it seem completely blocked. I have tried compressed air from both ends and also a very fine pick in the openings to see if I could free it up. No joy. Decided to use a bit of heat so got out my 120W gas soldering iron. The only non accessible internal part of the jets is the small block containing the jets themselves. You have internal access all the way down to this via the small inspection nut so I knew we were good to this point.
After about one minute of heat I got quite a puff of smoke. I stopped and let it cool. At this point I was freely able to blow through it with just the pressure of my mouth. Repeated on the other side with the same result. Guess years of carbon build up or old fuel residue was responsible.
Also fitted up the awesome teflon bushes, mark II, that Rodger turned up for me. We ended up machining up some small inserts into the bush as the teflon wasn't sturdy enough to take the force of the nut being done up on it alone and was swelling causing the alternator arm to stiffen up too much.
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Decided to bit the bullet this morning and weld up the breather pipe to the old banjo. I was a bit worried as its such a thin wall and I only have one banjo. In the end the saving grace is that I decided to just trim off the old pipe which was crimped inside the banjo flush with the face. I gave me more meat to weld to. If I had machined it out of the banjo I estimate I would have been left with about .5mm wall to work with.
Dressed back both parts and turned the welder right down as far as it would go. The result is ok and I managed to get quite good penetration into both pieces. The weld dressed back ok. I used my dremel for that work. Will send it all off to the gold platers this week.
First I have to figure out how to unblock my injection pipes!
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Worked on the center speaker again this arvo. I purchased a speaker mount kit from authentic classic. Wasn't as straight forward as I would have liked. The slots in the dash that the tabs slot into needed to be enlarged slightly to get it to fit properly. It should work out nicely.
I have also been working on the wood ready for its final fit up. I makes me feel quite ill having to put it back in. Even though its original its pretty shabby now compared to the rest of the car.
The 280se was finally picked up as well. Was a very sad day seeing it being trundled off down the road. A lot of blood sweat and tears went into bring it back from the brink. Upside is I now have space in the garage to work on the 230. The space almost seems decadent. I really envy Scott and other guys who have proper workshops and gear. I am so sick of working on everything on the ground. Makes everything seem five times as hard, especially with a bad back!
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Re: injection pipes, did you consider boiling them to loosen up whatever gunk may be in there? A friendly mechanic might let you borrow one of the large metal pans they have, you wrap the outside with thick layers of aluminum foil and make a fire. Boil the pipes, then you peel off the foil and the pan is clean. Never tried it myself, but maybe this can work?
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Jkalplus1, I have considered heat as an option. Already taken a lpg blow torch to it with no luck. Not to sure if your talking about boiling it with water?
At the moment I have injected acid into them and with gravity hoping it might eat away at the blockage. Last resort I am going to take them into the acid strippers to put in batch for a couple of days. Dont think it will work personally.
The main injection lines are replaceable as they are identical to the W108's. I happen to have two spare sets sitting around. But the cold start valve line seems particular to the 113. This is going to be a real pain in the A to replace if I cant unblock it. Not sure quite what to do at this stage. Looking as if its going to be a bit of a show stopper!
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Clean up day today. Have set up a trestle in the footprint of the freshly departed 280se. Fantastic not having to kneel down to work. Have hauled in all the remaining parts from the outside lockup. Its now the first time in over two years that all the car is in the same garage. Quite a moment.
Have started looking at the soft top. Think it might be next in my targets. Looks like quite a big job that no doubt will have just as big a learning curve. I have decided to leave the hard top for 'another time'. Probably will have a year or two's break before I tackle it.
Moved on this afternoon to another small job. Really want to push to finish off all the wiring in the car. Quite close now. I routed the last of the heavy 8 gauge power cable in the engine bay for the audio system. The cable needed to be connected in a couple of places and also four spade terminals for the battery, earth strap and two at the 100amp circuit breaker.
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A bit off pure 113 discussion but I thought I would throw this one in for the audio buffs amongst us.
The car audio project has been fraught with problems that have taken me what seems like an eternity to overcome. I really love my music so its been an important aspect of the project should I be lucky enough to keep the car long term.
Today I tackled a niggling issue which only surfaced after I had installed the gear in the car. Whenever I turned off the ignition, which disconnected the power to the remote power source controlling all the equipment, the amplifier was popping the speakers out with some crazy signal sent to it from either the line level mixer or the Bluetooth unit.
I festered around with the suspects for a good couple of hours before I determined that the popping was being caused by both units. I did a little research on the internet and discovered its a very common problem and that its normally overcome with turn off delays of one description or another.
So my solution was to use the biggest dirtiest capacitor I had floating around and wire it to main 12v remote line so it charged and stored around 10-30 seconds worth of capacity to hold up both the bluetooth and line level mixer after the amp turned off. In practice I simulated it manually to make sure it would solve my issues. Worked perfectly.
I measured the current draw off the remote line for all devices to be around 150ma so decided to go for a 8000uF capacitor, after a few rough calcs, to give me plenty of wriggle room. Wired the cap with a IN4001 diode upstream of the devices I wanted to control. Its capable of sourcing 1A of current so again plenty of headroom.
Wired it all up and it worked perfectly first time. Was a little surprised that only held up the gear for 10 seconds after the power was removed. Thought it would have been closer to 30 seconds but good enough. No more nasty banging and popping from the speakers. Perfectly quite start up and shut down.
I was also running all the gear through the ignition. So the car had to be turned on to operate the radio. I thought about this long and hard over the past couple of days. I am sure I will from time to time want to sit in the car parked up and listen to some tunes.
When I put the gear in I metered all the fuses and discovered that none of them were connected to the accessory position on the ignition. All were either permanently live or switched to the run position on the ignition. I am picking that if I had access to the ignition barrel I would possibly find a spare terminal I could make work but its just too hard to access.
An you categorically do not want to sit with the engine off and the ignition on listening to the radio. You would end up with burnt out coils I should imagine.
So a new plan was hatched. Wire the old Becker to 12v permanent and use the electric aerial 12v feed to power the remote for all the new gear under the seat. I was a bit worried that the electric Ariel feed might not be capable of supplying enough current but after metering that a about 400ma I quickly concluded that another 100ma wouldn't hurt. I was going to use a solid state relay if it was going to be an issue.
Net effect is at anytime, independent of ignition position, I can turn on the becker which in turn immediately raises the electric ariel and turns on the amp, bluetooth unit and line level driver.
Works beautifully. The only issue it raises is the radio being left on and flattening the battery. I figure by nature its going to be obvious if its left on. Also I have the benefit of knowing if the aerial is extended then the battery is being flattened. Good little visual reminder. I could go a step further and wire a buzzer that would sound if the door opened and the radio was on but I think I have taken the system far enough. My weird OCD has already cost me too much time on this little project.
I also solved another separate but related issue on top of this. I have an android phone which I intend to use as the source for my audio system. I connects via bluetooth which is fairly clunky out of the box. You have to dive into sub menus and turn on bluetooth and then select manually the device you want to connect to. Not something you want to do on the run or even stationary when you get in your car each time.
I found a freeware bluetooth auto connect application in the android store and its solved all my issues in a spectacular manner. Not only can you tell it to auto connect to a prioritized list of bluetooth devices but you can also specify an application on your andriod device to run when a new connection has been established. Obviously you configure your music player.
Net effect I turn on my becker and now magically the phone bursts to life connects to the bluetooth and the music player automatically starts. Very very slick. If anyone is interested I can make another video of it all.
Just ironing out all these little glitches has cost me another 8 hours today. Just goes to show the last 10 percent of the job often takes 90 percent of the time!
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Hey Andy,
The ignition switches for the 230SL and early 250SLs did not have accessory positions.
For you to have the audio working in the Ignition switch OFF position you will need a separate fused power supply from the battery.
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Hi Hands,
I think I have the fusing situation sorted with all the gear being adequately protected. I have gone to great lengths to make the becker look original including sourcing an original Mercedes/Becker fuse holder which usually was positioned in the engine bay. When I got my car it had a bracket just forward of the brake booster with nothing on it. I believe that was where the original fuse holder was. I have tapped into fuse number 1 which is the only fuse which is always live irrespective of ignition position.
The electric aerial has its own inline fuse which is also connected back to terminal one on the fuse box.
All the rest of the new gear has very carefully been fused to a 100amp circuit breaker. Pretty standard for high end amps to have this sort of protection. I ensure I ran the shortest possible run of 8 gauge unfused wire to the battery. Also used some very heavy heat shrink as additional mechanical protection on this link which is exactly what mercedes did with its unfused heavy wiring all the way back to the alternator and starter motor.
The ignition accessory position is a bit of a mystery to me. My barrel definitely has provision for it. See attached photo. Perhaps at some point my barrel was replaced with a 280sl version?
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Hi Andy,
Good to see you progressing the Pagoda again.
My early 250SL has similar switching, so I have added a relay to power the Radio & Bluetooth with the ignition off, for similar reasons to you.
I can power just the Radio system up with an illuminated rocker switch ( so I know it is on) when parked.
I also have a silver push button switch to isolate the power to the electric aerial, so I can run non radio music with the aerial retracted.
Always enjoy reading your updates
Keep well
Paul
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Thank Paul,
I came very close to slamming a solid state relay in. They are getting so cheap now. I resisted the urge to 'play' and after metering everything out decided the existing wiring was well up to the task.
I do like your idea of being able to retract the aerial when your not using it. I had contemplated it but decided that I love the way that the becker on off button now controls everything in one place so just left it at that. At the moment I am loving the novelty but I may well change my mind.
I love your wiring diagram. Obvious to me that you have taken a few electronics lessons in your day! Would love to see some pics and more of a description of exactly what your running.
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Hi Andy,
I am a retired petrochemical Engineer, so cannot help but fiddle...... the aerial still works automatically with the radio, dependant on switch position.
I have gone modern with a Retrosound Model 2, it plays USB and is Bluetooth connected for a smart phone, so I have now removed the Parrot CarKit I had previously installed. I have 4 speakers - nothing sophisticated.
All my mods are reversible and housed on an additional small centre panel, that hides the wireing.
I have added a "hazard" flasher.
I have a switched live, permanent live and earth running along the transmission tunnel to the boot, and “cigarette lighter” sockets to charge my phone, and to connect a “fridge” situated on the back seat., and a rechargeable torch in the boot.
I have also connected the boot light switch to the permanent live, as it only used to work with the lights on.
I have a socket (similar to the underbonnet one) fitted to a centre arm rest to easily connect a smart charger for the winter, or the so called optional "Trouble" light if needed.
Keep well
Paul
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Hey Andy,
#1 is called the Garage position.
It is there to allow you to take the key out without having the locking mechanism engaging.
The correct ignition switch for your 230sl will not have contacts for an Accessory position.
see the attached pic so you can check your wiring diagram against the visible contact #s
The referenced #s in the pic titles relate to 250sls.
cheers
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Hey Hands,
Thanks for that. Wow, so its purpose is to be able to unlock the steering lock on the car and allow it to be pushed around manually. I will try it out tomorrow. I guess it would come in really useful for when the car is towed but cant imagine it would be that useful in the garage. Can you think of any other useful applications for it? Perhaps it was called garage mode because the day head mechanics didn't trust their underlings to drive the cars around cramped workshops under power and made them push them carefully around instead :)
My barrel looks exactly the same as the one you have shown so am assuming it correct.
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I have been working over the past couple of days on the dash wood and finishing up my speaker install. I have a bit of a query on the wooden speaker grill. It slots in at the front of the dash under the two wood bows. Then at the front it has two pins which mate up with two pillars which are welded onto the dash. These pillars have a single hole drilled into the top which the pin goes into. The fit is very loose. I suspect that there is meant to be some sort of clip which create a bit of interference with the pin. I have looked back through all my dash photos taken during the dissasembly process and none of them show any clips. Can anyone help me out on this. The wood grill sits down ok but I would be much happier if it was secured along the front lip.
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Andy,
In the speaker install kit that you got from George there are two clips that you fitted to hold the rear of the speaker, two clips like those fit in the small towers that the grille attaches to, two long screws go through the wood grille into the clips .
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Thanks Eric, still a little confused. Perhaps the early grills were a bit different. mine definitely isn't fixed with screws to the turret. Take a look at this photo. Its got two inbuilt pins that home in on the turret holes. Definitely no screw used to hold the wood down with by the looks.
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Andy,
The set up that I have been referring to is much later than the set up that you have, your's does not look a secure location for the wood grille.
I will be interested in what other members have, I thought all grilles were held down with two long screws at the rear with the front located under the front wood.
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Andy and Eric,
My 1970 grille simply slides under the front bow wood and secures into the pillars with the two screws. When putting the bows back in, you have to make sure the spacer blocks are put in on both sides of the bow to make sure you have clearance and that the blue knurled nuts don't pull the bows too far down to the dash.
I hope I am explaining this right. Andy if you are worried about rattling, I'm sure you can add a little felt to the back of the grille which slides under the bow.
Mike Mizesko
PS Andy, I'd love to see a final demonstration of your audio system when you're done.
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My early 250 SL has the wood grill secured with two screws. My 280 SL grille also is set in place with the two screws. Will be most curious to see what others type.
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Guess the early 230 has a different system altogether. Looking at it I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes changed it. The pins I have dont look that effective but are definitely factory.
I did know about the packing spacers for the under the bow. I should have taken some photos. Ended up using very dense 15mm closed cell foam. Compressed down it holds beautifully and will prevent any vibration. Using closed cell foam you can sand it down to exactly the thickness you want.
I dont have the two little blue thumb screws. When I got my car the wood had been painted black so had obviously been out of the car before. Whoever painted it also sanded through the veneer in places. I stripped the wood last week with chemicals and blew yet another couple of coats of varnish on it to see if I could get it looking better. From certain angles it looks great but if your looking hard the 'sand through' is not a good look. Putting it all back they had used nuts and had obviously lost the thumbscrews.
I think at some point I will replace the wood so have only gone to the trouble of securing int behind the speaker. I actually holds really well with the other end jammed under the A pillar molding and rubber. To get the remaining three bows screws done you have to pull out the vents to get access. There is also one up behind the speedo which will probably need to be taken out as well.
Mike will try and put together a short video of the system all up and running.
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Andy, I had the same problem with my early 230SL speaker pins. From a suggestion from this forum way back, I used small plastic wall anchors pushed into the hole in the bracket. I think they are the small blue ones. The pins pushed into them & too this day they are very secure. Just in case my memory is incorrect, I would buy several of the anchors of different colors (sizes). Hope they are available in NZ.
Regards, Paul
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Thanks Paul. I kind of know what you mean. Cant think of where to get them but will look at the hardware store next time I am down. Are they designed to push through the plaster board and then take a screw?
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Andy, Yes that is type I used. Regards, Paul
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Decided to improvise on Pauls suggestion and create some interference with two small section on heat shrink on the pins. Worked magnificently creating just enough tension to hold the speaker grill snugly against the dash leather. One small win!
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WOW, The heat shrink appears to be a better idea!!
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Paul, sometimes less is more :)
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Andy,
My 230 has pins - the main problem I have is keeping them attached to the wooden grill - super glue doesn`t do it. Epoxy is next
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George, there are plenty of glues out there that would hold it. I think your spot on with starting with epoxy though. Good luck. Post some pictures.
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Hello Andy,
I have looked back through all my dash photos taken during the dissasembly process and none of them show any clips. Can anyone help me out on this.
Yes,
there are (should be) clips in place to hold down the pins of the speaker grill.
Just don't have a picture on hand to show you.
They're short and yellow cad colored.
Should be this one: A 001 988 5378 (2 x)
Best,
Achim
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Thanks Acim. I think I will run with my solution for the mean time and search out those clips. They are easy to get at so can do it at any time. I have started a list of stuff I am not happy with and want to revisit. The wood is on it so I can do the clips at the same time. To be honest I am just really getting desperate to drive it. Even a few feet in and out of the garage would be immensely satisfying. I am starting to waver on the quality assurance department since the the back operation.
Today I picked up the injection pipes from the acid stripper. They managed to completely unblock all but two. The two are partially unblocked. Importantly the pipe which supplies the cold start valve with fuel is 100% sorted! Dodged a big bullet!
Lesson learnt. Never never never never electroplate these lines if you havn't spent the time cleaning them out.
The second set I stripped came up really well. One thing I have learn t is that these pipes naturally block themselves over time. Other than the pipes I blocked I have tested all the other pipes by blowing through them. The resistance through them varies with some teetering on being blocked.
One of you guys mentioned earlier that these are a serviceable item. I am interested in how they serviced them. I am thinking that if these pipes start to block then it may effect the pressure at the injector nozzle. If you get uneven pressures across all the injectors I can imagine it would result in the car not running smoothly. Quite a hard problem to diagnose.
In any event I am now spoilt for choice and will be able to put together a really good free flowing set.
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Finished off the clean up of the injection pipes this morning. Decided to plate up all three sets in case any of the pipes block up again.
I then did huge 'recky' around all my other parts looking for the very very last lot of plating to do. Hauled the exhaust system out and pulled off all the clamps to be blasted and plated. I also pulled out the petrol tank breather thingy and grabbed all the pipes and clamps to blast and plate.
Fingers crossed I have seen the last of the blaster. I think I said that a few months back but in hindsight that statement was a bit over ambitious.
Blasted and dragged all the bits into the electroplater. Talked to him about the blocked pipes. He has seen the problem before and thinks it was caused by a build up of unlike chemicals in the pipe. This time he is going to fill the pipes with water before he begins. Sounded quite strange, and difficult to achieve, but I just left it in his hands. Fingers crossed I dont end up with three blocked sets. That would 'rip my undies'
Before I dropped the pipes I spent quite a while blowing out ever one individually to make sure that they were all clear of any obstructions.
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Moved on this afternoon to my hub caps. Have been reading with interest the current thread on the topic. Decided to mask up by hand rather than use the clubs mask. Took about 20 minutes to mask a single cap.
One thing I am struggling with at the moment is the secondary color of the hard top and caps. The new second hand caps came prepainted in a gray/blue hue. Really really like it up against the silver. Wondering if it would look more subtle and classy than flat mercedes black. Also I would only have to mask and paint two caps as the other two are so good I could run with them as is.
I probably will just run with black as I am terrible with visualizing color combinations.
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Hi Andy
I like the grey blue colour.
Long time since I have seen sheepskin seat covers, my Dad always had them in his Corvette, this is it in the mid/late seventies in Brighton.
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I like the blue too, looks very refined with the metallic grey. But then, what color is your hard top?
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Scott, The sheep skins are out of a 108 I wrecked. Come in perfect for protecting the new leather. I have however come to really like them! They are so comfortable. Perhaps your dad knew a thing or two!
I suppose living in New Zealand, where there are about 6 sheep to every person I should be more supportive of them but think they will probably go. Perhaps they might be pulled out if I do any long trips.
GGR the hard top is currently a non standard gold so I am going to pull it down to bare metal and restore it. Am wondering what effect a non factory approved paint scheme will have on the resale if it ever comes to it?
I was really taken with the following picture of 113 painted in a non standard teal color. Think its a very subdued and classy look. Again still love the two tone black over silver. Dont think you can go wrong with the tried and tested.
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I really like the teal colour too. It is the colour I fancied painting mine at the start. I couldn't find out what it was.
Those sheepskin covers really were nice. I think I might try to find a set!!!
When I was a kid my dad made a back rest for me so I could sit on the park brake console between him and my mum, that had a little sheepskin cover on it too! You'd get arrested now!!
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../... the following picture of 113 painted in a non standard teal color../...
I'm not sure I follow you here Andy... Are you referring to the top picture of the three in your posting? It is an official factory photo, well known.
Thus, the vehicle is indeed featuring a factory standard paint,; 906 light blue metallic IMHO.
However, I have seen the picture often reproduced in books and magazine articles, there appearing in many hues ranging from silver to light green
/Hans in Sweden
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Hans, thats good to know. Probably some differences when they scanned the photo. Definitely looks more in the green spectrum than the blue spectrum to my eye. In saying that I have an appalling eye when it comes to color. Whatever the case I think the car looks absolutely beautiful in this color as it appears in the photo.
This morning I have been trying to figure out what the color is of the hub caps I own. I reacon either 190G (grahite gray) or 170G (anthracite gray). They are both very similar to my eye. I have really fallen in love with the color up along side 180G that the color is painted. Am seriously thinking about painting the hard top and the caps this color. Everyone that has seen it in the flesh has agreed for the same reason that I like the fore-mentioned factory photo. It just tones down the look of the car. Very subdued.
It will look fantastic against the wooly sheepskins as well ;) I think Scott and I could set a bit of a trend here!
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I see them blue rather that darker gray. Blue goes very well with lighter metallic gray, especially with a blue interior. But with a black interior, a different shade of gray (anthracite?) darker than the body would marry very well.
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Hi GGR,
Are you looking at the sample silver photo I posted (the complete one sitting outside) or a few of my posts back to the caps I actually have. They are definitely a shad of gray. Will take some more photos. I agree with you that I need a very dark gray to marry with the black interior.
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Andy the sheep quote really made me laugh :) perhaps the peeps on here from far and wide of NZ and Austrlia haven't heard the sheep jokes ;)
Rgds, Joe
Scott, The sheep skins are out of a 108 I wrecked. Come in perfect for protecting the new leather. I have however come to really like them! They are so comfortable. Perhaps your dad knew a thing or two!
I suppose living in New Zealand, where there are about 6 sheep to every person I should be more supportive of them but think they will probably go. Perhaps they might be pulled out if I do any long trips.
GGR the hard top is currently a non standard gold so I am going to pull it down to bare metal and restore it. Am wondering what effect a non factory approved paint scheme will have on the resale if it ever comes to it?
I was really taken with the following picture of 113 painted in a non standard teal color. Think its a very subdued and classy look. Again still love the two tone black over silver. Dont think you can go wrong with the tried and tested.
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Ah Joe .. please do not start on sheep jokes....
Australia, New Zealand & Wales,
three great rugby playing nations...
where men are men
& sheep are afraid !
Paul
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Finally got my injection pipes and other bits and pieces back from the electroplater today. Its the third attempt to get them right. First time they came out really powdery, second time really red, third time really green.
First thing I did when I got home was to blow all the remains of chemicals out of them and push through half a can of CRC to prevent any flash rusting on the insides.
Looked very closely at each set and picked the best. Happened to be one from a 280se. Slight differences in the fitting to the early 230sl pipes. I think the newer design is better having more of the hex to get the 17mm spanner on.
Also got back the breather pipes I made up and various other bits and pieces. Hopefully the last trip to the platers and the last of the bead blaster!
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Hoping someone can help with this one. I have an issue with the horn interfering with the power steering pump. The car didn't come with power steering, I have retrofitted it with the correct 113 equipment. If would appreciate some photos of the mounting position if anyone has any. I am wondering if he bracket is shorter and mounted at a different angle.
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.../... an issue with the horn interfering with the power steering pump. The car didn't come with power steering, I have retrofitted it.../...
There was an additional bracket, some 100mm long, fitted to mount the horn at the factory when SA422 (power steering) was on the cars build sheet. This allows the horn to clear the power steering pump.
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans. Appreciate that :)
Has anyone got a photo of the bracket and where the horn end up relative to the other one. I am picking that looking from the front the horn now no longer appear to be symmetrically placed relative to the respective body positions? If someone with a power steering equipped 230 would mind I would dearly love some photos. Have been staring at this problem for some months now wondering how to solve it. The factory brackets are not that simple to extend. They are a kind of sandwich design of three or so plates.
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The location of the horns is original on my car (!!!) if it can help:
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.../...Has anyone got a photo of the bracket and where the horn end up relative to the other one../...
See attached, I borrowed the 230SL picture to mark the position of the additional bracket. Feb 2015: I also now put in a picture of the said bracket.
Note, this is for a LHD car with power steering; I am not so familiar with RHD version but the p/s pump is in the same position so should be similar
/Hans in Sweden
.
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Thanks guys, very useful. Hans that last photo in particular has answered all my questions. If you look at the problem the only plausible solution is to drop the left hand horn. It looks a bit funny though which is why I wasn't sure if the factory would have done it. Will take another close look at it tomorrow and see if I can fabricate up a tidy solution.
Cheers again guys. Appreciated.
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Its been a hard week. The fuel system has got the better of me after a huge amount of effort to prep it for an engine start.
Started last week when I tried to fire up the fuel pump. Very quickly I realized it has seized and was drawing about 10A. I was aware of the damage that could be caused and quickly took off all power after a few quick measurements with the meter. Sinking feeling quickly ensued.
I decided that I had no choice but to crack the base plate and take a quick look. At this point I hadn't taken the time to read the technical manual in here or the BBB so I am a bit worried that I may have damaged the internals with the freeing up of the motor shaft. It didn't take much force and I gently rocked the empellor backwards and forwards a dozen time by hand which was enough to free whatever was causing the jam.
I noticed the main o ring seal for the plate was in bad shape so to get me going I raided my spare short W108 pump.
Fired up the pump again and measured it pumping 1l of fuel at the pump outlet in about six seconds. Thought I would be good from that point.
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Decided a long time ago that before I fired the engine I wanted to see the cold start valve physically spray a nice steady cone. Over the past year I have read about so many issues with this component causing all sorts of grief. Good piece of mind. I have never seen a photo of the spray pattern on the site so I was keen to get a good one for everyone's future reference.
When I fired everything up I couldn't even get a dribble out of the spray nozzles. The pressure at this point seemed to be the problem. I have however very little experience gauging pressure and was now unsure what the issue was.
Talked over the issue with Rodger who very kindly came over this morning with a pressure gauge. Used it this afternoon to measure up the pressure at the valve. I have taken the first fitting which screws into the CSV housing out of the equation as it has a very very fine gauze in it which I though may have been part of the problem. Still unsure if its obstructing.
In any event even with out the filter I am measuring up at 8.5psi which is more than 3psi down on the minimum pressure.
The BBB outlines a few additional things to do if you come up short of pressure. I decided that I would go right to the horses mouth, so to speak, and measure the pressure at the pump outlet. If this was down then I think its a safe bet that everything else will be low as well. Let me know if this logic is wrong.
The pressure the pump does indeed seem to be low at around 13psi. The BBB seems to state that the pressure on the outlet of the Fuel Injection Pump should be around 19psi minimum so I think the writing is on the wall in regards to the state of my pump.
I would really appreciate some advice on where to go from here.
I would dearly love to keep everything original but I suppose I have the short style W108 pump which I can try. According to the BBB it was a factory recommended retrofit for vapor locking issues so I guess it would be ok. However chances are that the spare short pump is also quite tired.
Another question is should I try and repair myself. I really cant afford a new pump at this stage so am looking for a low cost solution. Where do you get the repair kits from and how much do they cost?
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Hi, Andy,
From experience, my 230 was running fine with about 8 psi at the valve.
The spray pattern from the CSV is more of a squirt than a fine spray.
One nozzle blocked in the pic.
Naj
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Naj, thanks mate. That pic was actually very helpful to me today. I started the day by trying to flush the cold valve pipe with several liters of fuel. One thing I noticed was that there was still a large amount of sediment in the bottom of the jar after each flush. That amount would really block up the cold start injectors if it got passed the fine mesh filter. I was also still at a point where 8psi would hardly push fuel through the mesh filter even though I had already soaked it for a week and also blown several hundred cubic meter of air through it.
Not knowing what is normal has been my nemesis on the fuel leg of my restoration. There are so many aspect where if any one is wrong then the whole system falls down. Two filter at the rear that could be blocked, the fuel delivery pump not delivering either enough volume or pressure, the main fuel filter potentially being blocked, hoses being kinked, the main fuel hard lines having obstructions, the cold start valve filter being blocked, the cold start valve not sealing, the cold start injectors being blocked. Any one of these could stop the system let alone a combination.
Today I had a combination.
First up I went to work on the csv steel pipes. I decided to use excess pressure and water to blast out any remaining muck. Made up an adapter out of an old injector and another W108 fitting which happened to have exactly the same thread as my 1700psi Kartcher water blaster.
Worked beautifully. Left the pipes constantly blasting for a 20 minute period. Was quite entertaining to see the huge rooster tail coming out of the old Merc pipes. Small minds I guess!
I blew the pipe dry with compressed air and tried it again back in the car and to my delight all the fuel coming out was crystal clear with no sign of any debris.
Still the same problem though. The pressure was barely enough to get the fuel through the fine mesh filter let alone out the injectors. So I decided that I had nothing to loose and pulled the hose back off and blew 1700psi through the filter for 10 minutes. I could tell instantly it had made a huge difference by just blowing through it.
Hooked everything back up in the car and I now have two nicely formed spray patterns with 8psi.
At this point I think it will be good enough to start the car. Certainly a massive improvement over when I took it all apart. I have no idea how it functioned when I got it.
The day was going really well until I went to do a full test. Until this point I had removed the plunger in the csv valve so I didn't need the csv solenoid engaged to squirt fuel. Discovered that my csv is faulty. Desperately need another one in order to start the car. I have a solenoid off a spare 280 csv but discovered that the plunger pin is slightly longer on the 230 variant. I have a working second hand 280sl solenoid if anyone wants to swap for 230 one. I will throw in the whole csv to sweeten the deal!
I guess I have made good progress irrespective of the solenoid. I can now bolt up the csv and move on with the throttle linkage.
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Andy,
Any Bosch numbers on your CSV? I have an early 280 CSV complete I can't use but need to check the numbers. I could have put my hand on it a dozen times this Summer but I cleaned the attic of my garage... I'll see if I can find it tomorrow. If no numbers post a good shot of the side away from the manifold.
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Hey Shvelgel, thanks so much for the offer of help. Unfortunately the 280 csv is different to the 230. Much smaller round base plate and the actual valve fitting is significantly different using a ball bearing instead of a plunger to seal the internal chamber. You wont have problems selling it though. The solenoid is also different as well. The plunger bolt is shorter on the 280 version.
Today I went on a mission to replace my solenoid with a second hand unit. I swapped my complete CSV 280 unit with a complete 230 equivalent with Kev from Startech here in NZ. Spent all day refurbishing the entire unit. When I got it the jets were completely blocked. Couldn't blow any air through at all with the compressor. I mucked around with it using all the tricks I had employed on mine with no success. Decided to use my waterblaster technique to see if it would have any effect.
Made up a blocking plate with the base plate of the old solenoid. Did some very dodgy welding to block the plunger hold and strengthen the plate. I was a bit worried about excess pressure and used the small bleed hole in the internal chamber to release a bit of the pressure.
Tentatively started the blaster up and watched as the two spray patterns very quickly took shape. Initially only one of the jets up unblocked but very quickly the second one came to life and over time established into a very consistent cone. I left the blaster going on it for a good 20 minutes.
In the mean time I went to work on the solenoid. Blasted it and painted it up. Electrically tested it. All was looking good. In the end I decided not to swap over the new csv and to just bold the solenoid up to the original csv I fitted up yesterday.
Tested it and all seemed fine. Then... drip drip drip. After a bit of a look it was apparent the petrol was coming from the very top electrical screw of the solenoid. From my dissection of the old solenoid I discovered that plunger pin is sealed from the electrical internal and the main case by a small seal. This seal on the new solenoid was obviously shot. It would seem that the day has been a bit of a write off. At least I am gradually educating myself on the ins and outs of the 113 cold start fuel system. To be honest it seem it been a bit of a baptism of fire.
Not to sure what I can do now.
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Andy,
Turns out I have one and a half CSV's. One is labled EP/EV 2/4 and the other is EP/EV 2/2. Both are large bolt circle valves. I assume yours is the EP/EV 2/4. The one I have is missing the pintle but the solenoid is there and it carries the same part number as yours. Message me your address and I will express mail it as a freebee if you are interested.
Pat
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In a last ditch attempt to get my car going this morning I took my freshly restored 230 csv and swapped it lock stock and barrel for another old used grungy old unit off another engine. I am so close to turning the key that its not funny. Spent yesterday fitting up the throttle linkages and other various bit and pieces
Anyway got home and gave the new csv a clean with some degreaser then tested the electrical side of things. Again the solenoid pin action was fine. But this time I have learnt from my mistakes last week and immediately fitted the new old solenoid up to my car to give it a quick pressure test.
Exactly the same problem!!! Fuel hosing from the top of the solenoid. Not a good look. They can't like sitting around for long periods. Also guess they are all probably 40 years old now so are already a bit tired.
I am wondering if these aging solenoid pose quite a significant fire risk. Obviously mixing fuel and electricity is not a good idea. Recently I have seen quite a few old 190's and 113's for sale all obviously burnt out with fires starting in the engine bay. Am interested in other people opinion on this one.
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.../..fitted the new old solenoid up to my car to give it a quick pressure test. Exactly the same problem!!! Fuel hosing from the top of the solenoid
Yes, it is wise to remove the small solenoid, clean the area and exchange the small O-ring around the pin (plunger). You may also have to grind (lap) in the little conical valve to seal against its seat. See [borrowed] picture attached
../..I am wondering if these aging solenoid pose quite a significant fire risk
You bet they do! The fuel oozing out is not too far away from the (hot) exhaust manifold as well. Well worth checking this CSV device on any old Fuel Injected M-B
/Hans in Sweden
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Hey Hans, I have made my mind up not to go anywhere near another second hand solenoid as a result of my learning.
I ended up cutting the old solenoid in half to see what was causing the issue. Its definitely not the seal/o ring between the solenoid and the CSV body. This prevent leaking between these two components. My issue was definitely a seal inside the solenoid itself. Non serviceable item so if this seal perishes you will be throwing the unit away.
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Oil Viscosity
After weeks of deliberation and reading every single shred of data on this site I have finally decided on the oil and viscosity to run in my engine. All my 1960's Mercedes manual say to run 15w 40. I had made my mind up weeks ago to run Castrol GTX but it isn't available in New Zealand (that I can find) in this viscosity. Its driven me absolutely crazy.
This morning I stumbled upon a recent Mercedes pamphlet promoting their own blends of oil (no doubt hideously priced) for putting in their own classic cars. An endorsement as such from the manufacturer.
Interestingly enough they are now recommending and producing 20W-50 as a recommended viscosity range for a number of their own cars including all W113's.
Castrol GTX is more commonly available in this exact viscosity so from my perspective case closed!
I have stared at this blend on the shelf at least a dozen times over the past month wondering if the slight difference in viscosity would make a jot of a difference. Its amazing how obsessed you can get over details that don't matter that much!
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Hi Andy,
when I started my Pagoda time 5 years ago MB's recommendation was 15W40, there was no extra MB classic oil on the market. Today it's 20W50, curious, honi soit qui mal y pense.
When our cars were build there was no 15W40, only 10W30/40/50 and 20W40/50 besides the single viscosity motor oils.
My opinion: There is not much difference between 15W40 and 20W50, except you are living with extreme temperatures.
...WRe
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Hi Andy.
The solonoid leak...daft question, at any point did you give it the beans and put the full 1700psi against it without removing / capping off the solenoid ?
It worries me that 2 of these have leaked . It makes me want to check mine now... couldnt be in a worse position right above the exhaust manifold.
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Hi Dave, no the two replacement second hand solenoids were taken off the csv and replaced with the plate I made. Both of them were stuffed before I started with them. They had both probably been sitting for years though. I would still check yours. Run a temporary wire directly from you battery, turn your key on so the fuel delivery pump is going and then activate the solenoid with the temporary wire. If you see any fuel leaking or bubbling through the cap of the solenoid you have a problem. Make sure you leave the solenoid activated for at least a good ten seconds. During normal operation its probably only active for a few seconds at a time so stress testing it for 10 should show up any issues quick pronto.
The photo you re posted of mine is the csv back in the car and pressurized with fuel at around 8psi. That isn't a photo of the csv hooked up to the waterblaster!
Today was a very frustrating day. It took me all day to finish the wiring on the alternator, ignition, spark plug leads, thermal switch and the injection pump solenoid. Very fiddly time consuming stuff to get right. The spark plug leads took an eternity. Metered out every one of the leads, caps and elbows to make sure everything is good.
Then I lost a small brass special screw from the thermal switch. Dropped it into the engine bay while trying to wire it up. Spent the next two hours trying to find it. Gave up an improvised with another small bolt. Will probably turn up the day I drive the car out of the garage.
Getting very close.
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My CSV has been disconnected and the line plugged since before 1987 when I bought my car. It always started, because I kept it in a heated garage in the winter and drove it only in the spring, summer and fall. When Robert Fairchild, in California, rebuilt the injection pump and checked the injectors and CSV during this ongoing restoration, the CSV leaked and had to be replaced at extra cost. With one that worked, I do not doubt, but for how long? Since I haven't yet reinstalled the engine, I think I'll just keep the CSV disconnected and the line plugged to avoid the risk.
I'm learning so much from this site and particularly, this thread. Thanks!
Tom Kizer
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Hi Tom, I am surprised that your car even starts with the csv disconnected. Perhaps it isn't that necessary in warm countries. I am certainly stunned that mine used to start so well when the csv was almost completely blocked. I certainly dont want to put you off putting your csv back in place. The test for the leaking solenoid is quick, easy and definitive. If your internal valve is leaking then its a different matter. The leak would presumably mean that your car would continually run rich. This problem is easily resolved as well by cleaning the filter (230sl only) and lapping in the valve stem which is only a ten minute job.
In the past two days I have concentrated on getting my exhaust back in the car. Quite a big deal with my bad back so I have taken things very quietly.
I consider myself fortunate to have a car with a very good stainless system installed. It scrubbed up almost like brand new and I even was able to make out a manufacture date of 1987 on a sticker on the muffler. I think if it were a mild steel unit I would be dealing with a pile of rust. I know its not original but the fit and quality is so beautiful I will forgive it. I am also very very thankful I have not got another costly replacement exercise on my hands.
Also spent part of the day finishing off the back end. Tightened the huge 36mm nut that hold the trailing arms on. Used a very long extension on my tommy bar. They are not coming off in a hurry.
Then went on to setup the lateral positioning of the axle relative to the body. That took quite a while to get mm perfect.
I also want to say a huge thanks to Pat, Naj and Dave who have all very generously sent me bits and pieces to keep me going. Its been really huge as I have been struggling with lack of income after the accident. Really appreciate it guys!!! Wish we all lived a bit closer so I could share a few cheeky beers with you all :)
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A few weeks back DaveB from Aussie kindly gave me a original tool roll after I discovered the one I have wasn't from a 113. A really lovely gift thanks Dave :)
Today I decided to give it a birthday and see if I could get it back to a really clean original state. It made from light gray MB tex which unfortunately shows up all stains and imperfections. I cleaned it with every chemical know to man trying to eliminate a few old rust stains but just couldn't move them. It was a really hard decision but in the end I finally made up my mind to paint it a dark charcoal gray.
I am really happy with the result. I did however discover that some of the tools that came with my other tool roll are too long and wont fit properly so will have to start searching for the right ones on ebay.
Can someone also tell me the best way to lock up the engine so I can tighten the big bold on the front of the crank. It needs to be tightened to about 200 newton meters so quite a bit of force on whatever I use to jam the engine. I am a bit nervous about it. Last thing I need is shattered engine parts.
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Andy,
The tools are actually pretty easy to source individually. Authentic Classics here in the States has the original style long (300) slip joint pliers, with the MB star. I think the have the proper wheel mounting stud too. The spark plug wrench should be shorter, as you note. These tools were common across the lines, so don't fall for "original 113 tool" there are a lot of threads on the site and in the Wiki about the tools and sizes.
Very nice job on the tool kit wrap!
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Isn't the lug wrench supposed to fit into a slot/pocket in the spare tire cover?
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Kevin,
The tool kit cover has 2 slots for the 17mm lug wrench, but my 1970 280SL has a holder next to the jack holder under the tire where I clip mine into.
Hope you have a great holiday!
Mike
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Interesting. I had read the statement below in the Tech Manual and assumed that the slots were used for placement in early cars...
Early 230SL tool kits (like those of the sedans) were mounted with slots in the bag to the back section of the trunk below the trunk lid opening.
I had also assumed that since the pockets in the spare tire cover seemed to fit the lug wrench and alignment tool so well that this was where they resided:
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I would appreciate some tool rool mounting photos. I cant see any hooks to hang the roll on under the boot catch. Also can somone help me out with advice on how yo lock the engine up so i can tighten the front crank bolt. ???
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Kevin,
I'll have to check my cover. I don't remember seeing those pockets, but I could be wrong. But I do have two clips next to my jack where the lug wrench was mounted when I bought the car. ???
Mike
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I feel like I just keep hijacking Andy's thread and he's just trying to find out how to "lock up" the engine so he can tighten the front crank bolt. I do hope that someone can assist with this.
On the lug wrench, after some searching, I did find this in the Tech Manual...
The "centering tool" you were mentioning has a special place for storage in the trunk - it slips into a little hole on the backside of that flap in the spare tire compartment. It's right next to a space for the lug wrench (makes sense the two would be side-by-side).
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I keep the lug wrench in the pocket provided in the spare tire cover. There is a space also for the wheel mounting tool, but I keep that in the tool roll. I don't think there is supposed to be a spot for the lug wrench by the jack (under the tire). Is that where the handle for the jack should snap into?? Oh, or is it where the pin that inserts into the jack holes mounts?
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Hi Andy, it has taken me a while to find this photo to show how I torqued the crankshaft nut up on my 280SL. Probably have the bits kicking around if you want to use.
cheers
Rutger
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Hey Roger. Pure brilliance! My early 230 has a slightly different balancer by the looks. Its a rubber and aluminium sandwich. Yours appears solidsteel and much more robust. I also only have one suitable hole through the balancer and it doesnt have a thread. I would like to know its purpose. Will hit the bbb tonight and see if it mentions the tightening procedure. Again thanks so much for your valuable input.
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Andy,
The correct MB tool for holding the crankshaft utilises the starter mounting point, the tool consists of several teeth machined into a piece of steel these teeth match the teeth on the flywheel, also mounted on the piece of steel are two pegs, these pegs are spaced so they go into the starter bolt holes.
In operation you push the unit into the starter mounting hole the two pegs go into the bolt holes and the machined teeth are pushed into the starter ring gear.
I am away at the moment but on my return I could send you a picture as I feel sure Roger would soon fabricate one.
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That's just what you thought Andy. I can't match the tooth profile but we might be able to make someting out of an old W108 starter pinion wheel welded to a piece of steel fabricated to match the starter bolt holes in the flywheel casing?
cheers
Rodger
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The problem with using the pinion is you will be putting a large load onto one/two teeth on the ring gear and you could do some damage, with the MB tool the load is spread over several teeth
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Hi,
a crankshaft tool like this?
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220-s-class/1715068-diy-harmonic-balancer-guide.html
...WRe
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No, nothing like that.
As stated the correct MB tool locks the flywheel with the special tool inserted in the starter location.
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.. or something self made
http://www.mercedes-scheune.de/index.php/vollrestauration-w111-coupe/step-5-motor-achsen/dichtring-kurbelwelle-vorne-erneuern
...WRe
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this looks like what tel76 may be describing?
http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm#engine
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First up I want to say happy xmas to all you guys. Its been a pretty up and down year for me but one positive constant is the help and support I have had from you all. So a big thanks and xmas wishes to you all :)
Have spent a good morning with the family unwrapping gifts and partaking in far too much food. No doubt this will continue for the rest of the day. I will have plenty of stored energy to tackle the engine start in the coming days.
I have been thinking about this crank bolt and considering what everyone has offered. Also been thinking back to another recent thread about one of our members who damaged the pins and pin housings on the front of the crank. Makes sense it had turned into an absolute nightmare to fix.
In relation to this front bolt and the technique to tighten it I am worried if I employ the technique of holding the damper rather than the crank that all the load would be applied to the two tiny dowel pins holding the damper to the crank. If they sheared or started to oval the crankshaft holes then I could be in for a world of hurt.
The factory technique of holding the crank rather than the damper makes more sense to me. As you tighten the large crank bolt down on the damper the turning load on the pins would surely be less as the body which your trying to screw the bolt into cannot turn and is taking the brunt. The other way around when your clamping force of the bolt bears down on the damper it will turn. If it is prevented but the crank can turn freely then in my mind all the force is going to bear on the dowels.
I am not an engineer so may be well out of line here. Feel free to buzz in.
I think the latter version went to a woodruff key which perhaps were better placed to accept the 200nm of force required to torque it up.
I am so close to starting my engine its not funny and this last little xmas curve ball needs to be 'safely' overcome. At this stage my gut tells me the factory type tool Kampala and tel76 are talking about is the way to go. This will probably me a lengthy delay for me.
I am quite flabbergasted that Mercedes made it so hard to do this as to conduct the routine maintenance of replacing the main crank seal this bolt would have to come off and on during the operation. It seems quite long winded to have to take the starter motor out to do this. I am as always interested to know if this was a design flaw that they rectified on the M130.
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In addition to the crank bolt I would also love to solve the mystery of where the tool roll mounts. I have taken a couple of pictures of my boot and as you can see the lug wrench and the centering tool are mounted low, almost on the boot floor. The slots in the back of the tool roll are suppose to slot into the lug wrench. That is how the W108 works anyway. But the W108 has mounting points for the wrench much higher in the boot so the tool roll can suspend itself below. Any photos of factory setups would be great.
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Hi Andy, looking at your dilemma on tightening the crankshaft bolt, it would be quite difficult to remove the starter and replace it I am thinking. As Tel76 rightly points out that the stresses on two or three teeth on the ring gear would also be quite high although the turning moment (m) from the crankshaft centre to the ring gear teeth is much longer than anything around the damper so the required force (n) would be smaller.
Alternatively if you go to http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/key.htm you can feed in torque data for square keys and get recommeded key sizing. Although this is for square keys if you downrated the answers by 30% (cross sectional area of circle rather than square) you would be in the ball park. I did this for a 25mm diameter shaft with a torque loading of 207 nm and a key length of 20mm and got an answer of 8mm square key. Remember you have two pins or keys not one, so this would be 4mm per key (less 30%). Also having two keys diametrically opposed is immensley more resistant to movement and shear than one.
If you do decide to tighten up using the 3 threaded bolts in the damper I can machine up a ring which will pick these up and leave an inner hole large enough for a socket for the crankshaft nut. We can then weld a bar on to pick up the engine block as in the German solution.
meery Xmas
Rutger K
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Hi Andy,
You have the wrong jack for that model. The 230sl have a 2 piece jack where arm of the jack fits where you have the lug wrench at the moment. The lug wrench then fits in the slots of your tool pouch. Then I guess the 2 other mountings are for the warning triangle. Might be wrong, if so please someone corrects.
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The locking tool that Kampala has illustrated is like the one I have, if you decide to obtain one be aware there are several available for different engines(I have four).
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Hello Andy,
You can easily hold the crankshaft by the flywheel. You have the best mechanical advantage back there. There are several places you can lock on to it. Is yours an automatic or standard? Sometimes locking pliers (vice grips) or a heavy C-clamp can hold the flywheel so you can torque the front bolt. I made my own special tool from a piece of old flywheel ring gear, but before that I did it many times without a special tool.
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Thanks guys. Great advice. I have now managed to tighten up the front crank bolt. In the end I took bits and pieces of advice from in here and cobbled up a good solution. Car in first gear with handbrake on. Joes tip of using a g clamp on the flywheel and also prevented the harmonic balancer from turning. Probably gross overkill but am sure my crank pins are still intact.
Today I started by stripping the radiator of all the nasty cheap rattle tin paint. Its pleasantly easy to strip. Only advantage. Scotched back the metal to give a good key and then blew on four coats of high temp ceramic paint. The radiator itself was in excellent condition and must have had recent recore. I am struggling finding the correct bolts for securing it. Can someone tell me if they have an odd ball thread.
Moved onto the power steer issue with the horn not clearing the power steer pump. I took the measurement supplied to me by Hans and made up a extension adapter 75mm long. Took quite some time to weld up and dress back. My welding is pretty average so the end product certainly looks home made. But it will do until I can source a correct factory bracket.
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Andy,
The horn tags are available go to ebay.de I have seen them there.
George has them at Authentic Classics.
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Spent Sunday just tinkering. I timed up the dizzy the best I could and worked on the brakes which should be ready to bleed up in the coming days. The clutch is a different story. Discovered the flexible hose to the slave is perished so I will have to wait for a replacement to be ordered and shipped. Probably delay the first drive by a couple of weeks.
I thought the exhaust was going to be easy. The past 20 hours have proved me wrong. I spent all yesterday unsuccessfully trying to fit them up without interfering at one place or another with the body of the car. It almost drove me to distraction. I almost gave up at 6pm last night but soldiered on into the night. It seemed after quite some tinkering that the pipes needed to be clamped together in one additional place near the front junction of the pipes to get all the distances correct. I made up a new adjustable double sided clamp to bring the two front pipes closer to one another. I have no idea how they got them to fit originally. Perhaps under a hoist things were much easier and the installer perhaps could call on a second pair of hands. No such luck for me. Have been lying on my back with the car sitting on the ground. A few times I tried turning my head and got it jammed I had so little room.
Another reason for the pipes not fitting up correctly was that I had rubber donut hangers that didn't match in strength. They looked the same but one must have been older than the other and it stretched further allowing the other side to pull the exhaust off center. Anyway after being schooled the hard way in the ins and outs of exhaust hanging I finally came up with the correct procedure for my particular exhaust to get it just so. Big relief as it set me up today to start the engine.... so I thought.
I quickly had the radiator mounted back up and worked for a couple of hours getting a decent set of hose clamps together and installed. I have run out of the original type. I thought I would have heaps to finish the job but sadly I have had to revert to modern equivalent to get things moving again. I did use modern Mercedes stainless steel clamps which is somewhat more acceptable than garden variety ones from super cheap auto.
After finishing off this job I now only had the radiator to fill before turning my key for the first time in two years. Other than the antifreeze the car is now full of fluids and I am happy to say that I have not spotted one iota of a leak from the engine, gearbox, diff or fuel tank.
I took the top radiator hose off at the engine to fill the car. Much quicker way then pouring it into the overflow tank. I got to about seven out of ten liters and heard a trickling noise on the floor. A frantic search showed up very quickly that the gush was coming from the small round overflow hole on the underside of the water pump. It wasn't a drip but a solid stream. I am not certain but I think this means that the internal seal that separates the pumps impeller from the bearings is shot big time. I have no other explanation. The pump looked almost new when I painted it up. I really have no explanation as to what has gone on other than a rubber seal gone hard.
I think I had the identical thing happen to me when I restored the 280se.
Can someone let me know if I am correct in my assessment and that I need another water pump.
I am hoping and praying that this is my last 'hick up' and that the engine is going to fire back into life with no further issues. Wishful thinking?
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Be sure to have the correct gap between rad and plastic fan.
Too small can in disastrous consequences
Naj
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I decided to start the engine today. Spoke to a couple of mechanics and engineers and they all thought I had a shot at resolving my water pump issue with a little use. Was worth a shot. Two options 1) pull the pump off the car and attach to a drill 2) start the engine and use it to turn the pump. Decided the second option would be less work.
The engine fired up after about ten turns on the starter. It sounded very smooth whilst being cranked and I also very quickly got full scale on the oil pressure gauge.
My attention was immediately taken away from the water leak and directed at quite a nasty sounding knock from the top end of either number 5 or 6. I let it run for a couple of minutes more thinking it might diminish. It didn't.
Lots of nasty things instantly crossed my mind. I am really hoping it doesn't turn out to be something that requires the engine to be pulled again. I think I would be incredibly unlucky if I did.
As well as the noise issue the leak did not diminish at all. Looking under the car at the huge mess of anitfreeze I also noticed a reasonable size pool of oil forming. This turned out to be the 12mm banjo on the side of the injection pump and also at the other end of the same line into the block. I then remembered that back about the time I stuffed my back I was also attending to this problem. I had lost my one and only 12mm ring spanner and had left these just nipped up ready for tightening at a latter date.
So now I was into a fairly large clean up of a slurry of engine oil mixed with antifreeze over quite a large area of my garage floor. I wouldn't recommend this combination as its a complete mongrel to mop.
After the clean up I decided that I had given it a fairly good crack and the only way forward with the water pump was to pull it. Out came the radiator, front pulley and then the pump. Blowing through the small drain hole that all the water is gushing out off its painfully clear that there is something desperately sick with the pumps seal. Almost to the point that it seems that the seal is jammed wide open?
Cant really afford it at the moment but will be picking up a new unit tomorrow from Startech.
So now I am confident that all the engine is now sealed and that once I have the new pump I can get it started. The big question is what the hell was the knocking. Should I even be trying to start it? Should I pull the valve cover again and investigate.
I have been reading a few thread in here which coincidentally have very similar issues. The current thread of Watson may be the same issue. Sound as if his may be injectors or a fuel delivery issue. Similar circumstances with both cars being laid up for quite some time. Wondering if my rack is jammed. Not sure and would appreciate some advice on how to proceed. Really really cant afford to make a mistake at this point that will cost thousands to fix.
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Hello Andy,
Don't despair yet. Sounds like you are close. I would remove the valve cover, Check the valve timing (TDC and slot on cam washer), then do a quick valve clearance check. sounds like some thing may have just settled-in and now an intake valve is adjusted too tight or the cam timing is off a tooth or two. Keep us up to date.
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Also look at the insides of the two loops that bolt to the head and are used to secure the valve cover. If you over tighten the valve cover bolts the loops will bend in and strike the camshaft.
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I Picked up my new aftermarket water pump. Quite a bit different from the genuine unit it was replacing. Bolted the pump in and fitted the radiator back up.
I think Joe was spot on. Just a bit of coercing and the noise just died off. I didn't even crack the rocker cover. The static timing was almost spot on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9w2dOtAb3A&feature=youtu.be
The only issue I seem to have now is the hot starting is not happening. I am not worried about this but just incredibly relieved that the engine seems to have survived its two year slumber seemingly intact. In general the engine is as I remember. Very smooth and barley moving on the mounts. Very very very relieved. Surely it just has to be fine tuning from here on in.
Its been a good day in Pagodaville !
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After 30 minutes of tuning the car is now running beautifully. The slight hunting you can hear in the video posted below was from an vacuum leak around the brake booster. After this was sorted everything settled down beautifully. Still have the hot start issue but I am thinking it may be to do with the fact that at the moment I have no heat shield and the inlet manifold is getting very hot. Am sure it wont be difficult to fix.
I have noticed a small oil puddle on the ground. I figured you have only got a window of opportunity to easily trace it back to source before everything gets very messy. So I got on my back and mopped the slick with my hair looking for the leak. Found it fairly easily. Looks as if its coming from the bolt that hold all the timing gear tension-er together. I remember giving it a wide berth while doing the engine. Figured that upsetting the valve timing wasn't worth the risk. A decision that has come back to bit me now. Hopefully it wont be to hard to fix. Can anyone tell me how difficult it will be to pull this bolt and if undoing it is likely to upset anything inside the engine.
Other than this one leak I think I am done with the engine bay. Bleed the brakes and clutch, put the bonnet back on and I am driving!
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Congratulations!
Many of these bolts in front of the engine must be fitted with thread sealant as they go through up to where oil is present. If you did not do it for all of them now is still the time to do it as it will be more difficult later with the hood in place.
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Great start to the yea. Well done!
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Thanks guys, Can anyone tell me what is behind my mystery leaking bolt/nut. I studied the parts breakdown last night and still cant figure out exactly what it is. I want to know what the consequences may be of removing it for a reseal.
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.../...Can anyone tell me what is behind my mystery leaking bolt/nut.../..
Behind the N=24 large hex head closing plug, you will find another hex head, N=14mm. This is the oil pressure regulating valve, located at the front of the engine block. This valve opens when the pressure from the oil pump in the sump exceeds a set value; oil is then dumped onto the timing chain and then back into the sump.
This valve is round, perhaps 5cm long and maybe 2cm in diameter.
Generally, when rebuilding engines, change this valve (just to be safe). The current part number for the complete assembly is 114 180 02 15
/Hans in Sweden
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Andy,
Make sure you seal all those bolts into the front of the block when you are in there (behind water pump and where alternator/ac brackets go). Also the allen screws in the sump next to the chain tensioner and sprocket under the valve cover. They need to be sealed and tight. I assume you already did the front crank seal too. Joe Alexander did all mine two years ago, and I haven't leaked a drop since.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Cheers Mike and Hans. Very good advice from you both. Hans I took your advice as fact and pulled the plug. My worries that it was a bolt securing something were totally unfounded. Mike, yes every single bolt and cap screw I have put back in has had a light smear with 3 Bond to make sure its going to be oil tight. So far nothing I have sealed, including the front main crank seal, seems to be leaking in the slightest.
After I sealed up the suspect plug I gave it all a good 12 hours to dry off and then restarted the car. To my disgust the oil pool has started to form again on the ground. Only tiny amounts but still enough to make a mess.
After running it for slightly longer and with the use of a very powerful light source I now believe the leak to be higher up. It seems to be tracking along the head and dribbling down the side of the timing gear alloy plate onto the plug I was suspecting.
I am hoping its not a head gasket. I cant see where it starts. Could be around the thermostat housing. I thought I sealed this up really well so would be surprised. Any thoughts?
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Hi Andy,
did you check if there is a bolt in the oil pool of the timing chain tensioner; see here www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/TimingChain.
"A 6mm socket head bolt is also located in this oil pool. This bolt must be in place or a severe exterior engine oil leak can result. The threaded hole for this bolt can emerge on the exterior of the block behind the water pump. If the bolt is left our during repairs, a mysterious oil leak may result."
...WRe
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WRe, thanks for that you may be on to something. The tensioner came out when I removed the manifolds. I dont recall any small 6mm socket head bolt. Not to sure about where the pool is but am assuming that its inside the head casting. I didn't touch anything internal but perhaps it was leaking out here before I even got the car. The engine was filthy so it is totally possible this is existing.
The only other thing I can think off is that I didn't tighten up the large cap on the tensioner. It was about the time I went into hospital so I was high as a kite on pain killers. Perhaps I just left it hand tight. Will check again in the morning.
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Couldnt sleep and decided to do something productive so wandered out to my garage at 3am in my pajamas to investigate the oil leak. Just went out for a quick look. Used a powerful torch and managed to track the leak back to its source. Luckily it wasnt behind the pump housing but was another plug in the head just above the leak. Exactly as i predicted it was just sitting finger tight. Blaming this one on the drugs.
After i got up from kneeling on my trusty piece of garage carpet i noticed one of my knees was soaking wet. the smell test told me immetiately it was hydraulic fluid. Look under the car and discover the entire bottle i poured into the brake resovouir last night is now all on the floor. Leaked out of an open brake nipple. will clean up in the morning. Just have to explain the oily pj's the wife :-\
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Just have to explain the oily pj's the wife :-\
Reminds me of when my wife found a crankshaft pulley in the freezer and a toothed wheel in the oven. I needed to fit a toothed wheel on the pulley as part of the crank sensor set-up for my Megasquirt conversion on my Coupe. It was a really snug fit so I had the pulley retract in the freezer and the toothed wheel expand in the oven. It worked like a charm but no matter what explanation I tried giving my wife, to this day she is still horrified (I hear about it at about every dinner we're having with friends). My father is partly responsible for this as he jokingly told my wife when we married that she should start worrying the day when she finds spare parts under the bed. This is going back to when I was a teenager: I was tinkering with motorbikes, and having absolutely no storage space in the city apartment we were living in by then I turned the space under my bed as storage for my various projects. So with the freezer and oven story my wife thought I had just gone one more step into insanity and started looking everywhere in the house for hidden parts!
Don't forget to clean all the parts where the brake fluid trickled on as this is very bad for paint!
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What a story, GGR. It really brought up smiles today.
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Have really enjoyed looking at GGR pics and reading his fantastic stories today. Had a quiet one after being up all night working on the oil leak issues.
This afternoon I decided to finish off the mounting of the high capacity fuse protecting all my hidden audio gear. The fuse block I ended up running with was chosen as it has a Bakelite look to it. Most of the ones available in this day and age are fluorescent pink or have some totally useless feature like led back lighting that would look absolutely hideous in a 113 engine bay. With all the aftermarket gear I have gone with I have gone the extra mile to make sure its either totally hidden or in keeping.
The mounting has been a bit of a dilemma for me as well. In the end I have decided to try and replicate the offset bracket type mounting that is used on the factory relays. Cut up some 1mm plate and did my best to copy the factory pattern.
Result is ok, Just need to figure out how to insulate the posts in a presentable manner. Red insulation tape is only temporary.
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My wife had a very small apartment in NYC and used to keep sweaters in the oven - clothes more important than food...
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My wife had a very small apartment in NYC and used to keep sweaters in the oven - clothes more important than food...
Ha! Ha! Each his/her own as they say. My wife is into art. We have a small room dedicated to storage and it's full of paintings. Fortunately enough, she did not yet got the idea to check what is lying behind them since a while! I may have a hard time explaining it's modern art! ::)
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Agggghhhhhh. Spent most of today trying to track down the hot start issue. Just cant figure it out. Went back to basics this morning and timed the ignition again. Vacuum advance off, 4500rpm and 30 degrees. All good.
Then double checked all the linkages. Pump rod exactly 233mm, throttle butterfly just closed on the stop all the other rods just with slight tension and all rods moving together perfectly. Car starting from cold on the first click and idling well as 800-850 rpm. Perhaps hunting a tad between 750-850. mmmmm.
Then I thought I had it cracked. Discovered the vacuum hard pipe attached to the cold start valve was finger tight. Blame it on the drugs. Nup, still didn't want to start hot.
Next I reverted to the parts break down and discovered that the cold start wax thermostat looks as if it has a rubber oring sealing it to the main body. I didn't have one at all and assume it there to prevent vacuum leak. Put one in and crossed my fingers. Same result.
Checked the barometric unit. Am sure it has all the correct spacers in place.
This is driving me nuts. Anyone have any good ideas of what I can check next.
I desperately want to put my bonnet on but have made a promise to myself not to do it until the engine is running ok.
The only other theory I have is that I am running the car without the manifold heat shield. Could I be getting some weird vapor lock issue going on. The inlet manifold is noticeably hot. Dont know if this is normal.
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Andy,
Having replaced my exhaust manifold not too long ago (self-inflicted gunshot wound), I can confirm that the inlet manifold doesn't get that hot. It may be, though, that static running the car is having an additional heating effect due to the lack of airflow both into the engine, and perhaps around it. That could be a contributing factor. If you are concerned that the manifold could be an issue (I'd have thought not, but have no empirical basis on which to make such a statement) you could probably fashion one from foil, loo rolls inners, and doublesided sticky tape to see if it has an effect in order simply to rule it out. The shield is clearly effective, but it's also quite crude.
JH
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Andy, how is the hot start issue showing up? Just has to wait before it will fire? Or do you have to crank and crank and crank and crank to get it going? Is it when you try to start the car again right after shutting it off, or after the car has sat for a while?
With the bonnet/hood off the car, I would not think that heat build up would be an issue.
How do you try to start the car? For my 250 SL, for a warm start, I turn the key, push the pedal about half way down, and bam, off it goes.
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Hi Guys, the issue is showing up after the car has warmed up. It runs fine but if the engine is turned off it wont restart. It shows signs of wanting to start. I have to let it cool right down before it will start again. When cool it starts almost on the first click of the starter.
After doing some reading in here last night things I think it may be include.
1) Fuel supply issue. Remember I only have 8psi at the fuel delivery pump. Should be at least 12psi. The may be causing vapor locks in the injection pump.
2) The cold start solenoid on the injection pump isn't engaging
If its the delivery pump I am dead in the water as I cant afford the 1000 dollars to replace it at the moment. Will check the solenoid today and also try and bolt up my old heat shield to see if it makes any difference.
I may go ahead and put the bonnet back on just to make me feel as if I have made more progress.
What is the car like to work on with the bonnet in place compared to it off. Should I leave it off with the final diagnostic work remaining?
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Have had another thought this morning. I have also replaced the points with a pertronix electronic ignition. Will also check the spark. Am also wondering if it could be the spark plugs which have been fouled and cleaned four or five times now. Am doubting either of these as it starts so well from cold but thought I would throw them into the mix.
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Spent this morning checking and double checking everything that I can think may be causing my hot start issues. Overnight I had another worry about the oil supply hard piped that snakes its way from the front of the block around to the back of the FI pump. I assume this is essential in keeping the pump well lubricated. If it was blocked I could imagine all sorts of nasty things would ensue. Given what happened with the fuel injection pipes blocking during the plating process I immediately felt a sickening feeling well up in my gust. That thought crossed my mind at about 2am this morning. I managed to get back to sleep at 4 which I thought was actually pretty good!.
This morning the pipe was quickly removed and to my relief was free of any obstructions and debris. The one way ball valve was however a bit stiff so I spent half an hour cleaning it and freeing it up.
Next I decided that an entire set of new plugs was the order of the day. Down to super cheap auto to buy some new NGK units. I am picking I have fouled the old set so many times now they could be causing issues. The car really needs to be put under load rather than just idling to operating temp time and time again. Not good for it.
Next I decided to check that both the fuel injection solenoid and the cold start valve solenoids were at least getting power. I know the csv solenoid is good but havn't yet tested the action of the fuel injection pump solenoid. I would have to take it off to be 100% sure. I am wondering if I have the wires on the wrong way around. This would have the effect of trying to force the solenoid bolt in the wrong direction. I am quite sure it is correct as I took good photos of it coming off the car. If anyone can tell me a way of telling for sure I would be appreciative.
I took a quick video of a couple of test lamps I made up connected to both solenoids to see if and how long they were powered for. The results were surprising in that they both only seemed to come on for a second or so when the car was stone cold. I am going to repeat the test again when its hot in the next couple of days. If you want to take a look at the 10 second vid follow this link. http://youtu.be/92QPh-nSRwk
I now only have the power steering to commission. I finished off replacing all the low pressure hoses and now only need to fill it and bleed the system. Will do this at the same time as bleeding the brakes.
With nothing left to do in the engine bay I was left around twiddling my thumbs. Yesterday I pledged to not put the bonnet back on until everything was finished. Some strange little voice kept on repeating 'Close enough' in my head. I couldn't ignore it.
Quickly made up a S clip to hold the bonnet stay and summoned my wife. I gave here a long and detailed sermon about the do's and dont's of bonnet hanging and then very quickly we proceeded. I mounted up on hinge on the bonnet and slipped this into its counterpart on the car. This then let me free my hands to bolt up the other side while my wife was left holding the baby. With two people this is the only way to do it.
I removed the bonnet catch from the inside of the bonnet this let me close the bonnet and move it around for fine adjustment without having it hinge. A really good technique that saves a lot of time. From inside the grill opening you have full access to all the adjustment bolts. I simply left them all finger tight and moved the bonnet to where I wanted it and then nipped them up. Took about 20 minutes.
Very very happy.
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Gave the dusty old bonnet a bit of a clean up. Made a huge difference and looks 100% better. Cant wait to give the whole car a really good detail and a thick coat of wax. At least now you can start to see the potential of it all. Quite exciting.
My wife is also getting quite enthusiastic about it and has made several comments about wanting to take it out on her own for a girls night. Mmmm will have to think about that one. In the mean time I gave her the honor of being the first one to start the engine with the hood on and closed. It fired first click with the new plugs and sounded much quieter than it did before putting the hood on.
Chuffed
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Gone, Race for the keys. Know the problem. :o
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Nice Job Andy ... well done!
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Andy,
letting het drive the car is compensation for her letting you live in the garage. Gets you 1000's of kudos points. My wife even drives my car during Pagoda events and rallies with me navigating. Go for it!
Peter
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Nice going Andy, car looks great. Some put a push button switch in the interior to momentarily activate the CSV to ease hot starts. You might give that a try, rig up somethjng to see if it helps. The engine is still quite accessible with the bonnet on the car, but probably you experienced that already. The fresh plugs may also have made a difference. Keep at it, you're very close to huge dividends for all your hard work and investment!
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My wife even drives my car during Pagoda events and rallies with me navigating.
Usually after lunch, as I recall, Peter. ;D
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Hi Andy,
this was an awesome work and shows an awesome result, congratulations with my high respect!
What Peter mentioned with your life in the garage and your wife is really worth to reconsider.
...WRe
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Thanks guys, appreciate your kind words. The bonnet fitting has given me a huge lift. Big milestone that I have ran over in my head dozens of times during the anticipation of finishing the project. Also huge relief I didn't bend it in the process!
Definitely going to let the wife drive the car. That has always been on the agenda. Just gotta make sure she doesn't take it anywhere it will get damaged or stolen. Lots of diplomacy to follow!
Today I spend working on the front grills. These have soaked up twice as long as the bonnet took. Lots of small issues that took time to resolve.
The biggest has prevented me from putting it back in place. The 6mm bolt securing the oval was welded in place when I took it apart and totally destroyed the thread extracting it. Without knowing how much it cost I gave it to a friend to tap out. He made a total hash of it and used a M7 tap. All good and well if you can actually find a M7 bolt but I have spent most of the day unsuccessfully doing just that.
I dont know if there is enough meat to tap it out to a M8 so the only alternatives are to try and slip in a helicoil or use some form of filler. Or I guess I could just grind off the retaining block and put in a nut.
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Andy,
What ever you do be very carefull when tighening it up with the star that you dont break off the attaching tab on the star, its pot metal and very very difficult to repair.
( Dont ask me how I know)
Garry
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If you have an early solenoid type auto they are a source for M7 bolts,everything is bolted on with M7 bolts.
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All good advice on the grille. I have this job to do very soon indeed. Like Garry, I know how fragile the damn star is. The repair looks good, though. ::)
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....
The biggest has prevented me from putting it back in place. The 6mm bolt securing the oval was welded in place when I took it apart and totally destroyed the thread extracting it. Without knowing how much it cost I gave it to a friend to tap out. He made a total hash of it and used a M7 tap. All good and well if you can actually find a M7 bolt but I have spent most of the day unsuccessfully doing just that.
I dont know if there is enough meat to tap it out to a M8 so the only alternatives are to try and slip in a helicoil or use some form of filler. Or I guess I could just grind off the retaining block and put in a nut.
Andy,
looking at your photo with the red text I cannot figure out what you have. As Garry wrote the outer ring of the star has two tabs (top and bottom) that fit inside the hollow rim of the barrel and a M4 screw keeps it in place. You cannot substitute the tab with a nut unless you glue (solder?) the nut to the ring; the tabs prevent the ring from moving in a circular fashion. See first photo. The M4 screw should be countersunk - I have seen Phillips lens head and slotted flat head screws at that location. Not sure what is correct because there is no p/n in the spare parts list.
Once assembled the barrel with the star is fixed on the top and the bottom to the oval frame with two M5 screws (see photo) and to the horizontal bars left and right with four M5 x 8mm hex head screws, wave washer, and nuts (not shown).
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Thanks all. Took everyones suggestions on board and sorted out the grill this morning. drmb's tip on the M7 bolts really got me out of some pain. I just happened to have a spare broken old box lying around and indeed the first bolt I extracted was a M7. Just had to shorten it to about 8mm of thread and off I went.
All the rest of the nuts and bolts were replaced with stainless. I was very careful not to over-tighten any of the fasteners. I can see how if you did break something here how difficult it would be to repair. The cost of getting stuff chromed after you have fixed it is eye watering alone.
I spend a good hour cleaning and polishing the finished grill, inside and out. The final fit up made me quite nervous as yesterday I had drilled the holes in the car body that the 8 securing screws fastened up against. When I took the grill out half the screws were just sitting there as the body sheet metal had been damaged during the numerous time in the past 50 years the grill has been out. So when I did the panel work I decided to weld these all shut and start again with fresh holes. It was the right thing to do.
Anyway when bolting the grill together I noted that the shell had to be stretched a bit when the barrel and side slats were tightened up. Horrible feeling that the holes I drilled yesterday now might not be in the correct position.
Also had my doubts about how the top edge of the grill would line up with the panel work. When I got the car the fit was shocking. The car had previous minor damage to the nose cone and grill that wasn't fixed properly. I spent a lot of time and money putting it all right. We did however work with just the empty grill shell so I was again a bit worried that the nice tight gaps we had achieved may have been upset with the flexing of the tightened grill assembly.
On either accounts I shouldn't have worried as it all lined up perfectly.
Am very very very pleased with it and for the second day in a row I have dodged some huge bullets.
It would seem lady luck is smiling down.... well for a few hours anyway. As I closed the bonnet the bonnet stay shot out of the Bakelite guide and snapped down onto the ballast resistor smashing it in half. I am guessing the when the bonnet strap is attached it contains the stay in this situation. Only occurred to me after the breakage. Am interested to know if Mercedes did this by design or not.
Quickly found an original looking Beru replacement with the same resistance rating 1.3ohm.
Back in business and a very happy camper.
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Great progress, Andy.
I really like the second picture in your post, with the hood up.
Keep the good work coming.
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If you look closely at these Pagodas we love it seems that the ballast resistors gets smacked quite a bit. After smacking mine (and breaking it) I fabricated a small metal plate that goes over the resistor to protect it from the hood stay fastened in place with the bolts for the hood stay guide. Doesn't look out of place and protects the resistor. You could even spray paint it if you wanted.
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Andy,
With the strap in place it would probably stop the bonnet stay from slipping off onto the resister when open or near open, but as soon as you start to close the bonnet the strap goes slack and would not help much. The bonnet strut should stay in the guide when opening and closing the bonnet. If it is not maybe your unit, either the base guide or the strut is slightly misaligned allowing the strut to be pushed off the side. Be careful as you are probably aware that that is under a fair bit or tension and can do some seriour body damage as well.
Garry
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Good job Andy, congratulations.
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Thanks guys. All the comments are awesome. I have been back and refined the bonnet stay guide so things are more likely to stay in place. Still think it will always have to potential to jump out if your not being careful.
For quite a while I have been dreading putting the side window glass and regulators back in. Its always a difficult and tricking job to get it just right. I cleaned all the regulators with some heavy duty degreaser and then hit them with rust converter/zinc coat.
Not sure I am 100% happy with the result. Am interested to know what the factory finish was. I am thinking I should go the extra mile and get these all bead blasted and then zinc plated. Probably way over the top but I really want to make sure everything is well protected. I wish some guy got hold of this car in 1971 and went over the top with rust proofing. Would have made my job much more pleasurable 40 years down the track.
Reflecting on this point this afternoon I have been asking myself if I have over restored the car. Its got a very dirty connotation to it in the classic car world. Wondering what you guys think. I have never quite understood it. My outlook is that if the restoration work provides much better protection, and cosmetically the result is similar, then its a really positive thing. If the factory under-protected certain components wouldn't it be moronic to copy it. Especially if the initial reason was cost savings.
Anyway thats my rant for the day. Am interested to know what everyone else has done to their window regulators.
Need to source some 1.2mm rubber sheet for the glass clamp bar and also some soundproofing as well. Has anyone got a photo of what the factory did in terms of soundproofing.
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Andy,
Remember you need the hard top on when you do the final window adjustment. Adjust to fit to the Hard Top then adjust the soft top to fit to the windows.
And I dont think you can ever under rust proof your car. I did not do enough rust proofing on my Kombi when I took some rust out, and guess what five years later, hello I’m back. I just hate that.
Garry
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I used a cycle inner tube for the rubber, a little fiddly to cut a straight section but worked ok.
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../...Window regulating mechanism. Am interested to know what the factory finish was.../...
Well, what you have there is a set of well preserved original window regulator parts, in factory finish. I.e. a dark grey metal surface, a phosphate(?) coating.
An important detail when it comes to the Pagoda doors interior are the plastic sheets that must be in place. Often missing. These sheets protect the door cards from moisture.
See attached picture. Spray glue may be used to fit the plastic sheet, however I use a malleable gumlike black material from car glass repair shops.
/Hans in Sweden
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Andy, I used a thin double faced tape to install the vinyl over the door interior. I just could not bring myself to using messy glue. I knew I would probably need to get back into the door interior at some time. Sure enough I had too several times for adjustments, etc. The vinyl removes fairly easy when using the tape.
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Andy, this is the stuff you need:
https://www.npdlink.com/store/products/seal_strip_glass_channel_1_16_inch-141849-1.html
It is a window setting tape. I have used it on Corvettes and used it on my Mustang, it is superb stuff and is just like factory fit. It is like a self amalgamating tape. I just sprayed both sides with some WD40 to help the glass slip in, feed it into the channel and then feed the glass in, you can tap the channel onto the glass with a rubber mallet or block of wood or something. Leave it a while for the WD40 to evaporate or whatever, clean the glass and bingo, its in there, and it aint coming out.....
Car looks great by the way!
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Thanks Scott, I have registered and ordered the tape. Looks exactly correct for the job. Garry, I have a bit of a dilemma as the hard top wont be ready for at least a year (well that's what I have told the wife anyway) so I am just going to forge ahead and get the soft top on and fitting nicely and come back and readjust everything when the hardtop is restored. I have thought about doing it using the unrestored top but I plan on replacing all the rubbers so more than likely doing it as is would be a waste of time but I may be 100% wrong!
Today I decided to recommission the power steering. Before I could start I needed to sort out the steering linkages. I decided that two of the four tie rod ends needed replacing. Went all the way in to my parts guy to pick up some new units. Of course the first question he asked was did I want left or right hand thread rod end. mmmmmmm. Kick myself in the proverbial balls. Solved to problems by taking both with a promise to return what I didn't use. Very kind of dear old Kev. Very appreciative indeed!
Sorted all the linkages to within eye ball standards. Will get a proper wheel alignment when the car is rolling.
The power steering caused me two hours of misery. I had forgot to do up various fitting which all pissed oil and tightening them was misery personified. The same job in a W108 is pleasant in comparison with room to kill.
Once I had sorted all the issues I fired up the old girl and with jug of automatic trans fluid in hand proceeded to top up the reservoir as all its contents got sucked into the system. I know there are bleed points on the box but just couldn't be bothered to open them with the restricted access so I took to plan B which was just turn off the engine and wait to all the air had self bleed back through the reservoir.. well as much of it as possible. When you first fill this system I dont think its possible to avoid cavitation and aerated ATF. It turn a very milky color initially. I should have taken a photo. I turned the steering wheel to both extremes a few times and initially you feel and here the box sucking up the fluid in each new direction you turn the wheel.
Once I cycled a few times the steering still felt a bit iffy so I decided to turn the engine off and wait for all the fluids to settle and all the air dissipate. Two hours latter the fluid was back to normal ATF look. Turned the engine over. Of course it started first time. The steering now feels perfect. Silky almost. Mercedes did a very very good job with the power steering. I am picking in its day it was right at the top of the heap. Comparatively it still holds up against modern systems in my opinion.
The power steering conversion has been quite an ordeal. I spent a vast amount of time getting the shaft right and finding the correct steering box arm. It was almost an anticlimax when it all clipped together this afternoon and ran as expected.
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Andy, do yourself a favour and bleed the system from the nipple on the box, it's easy to get to. Attach a long hose to the nipple and run it into a large, clean container on the floor. Open the nipple and go through the filling/lock to lock process. Run 3 or 4 litres of fluid through the system to be sure that you have extracted every bubble of air and then box it up and relax.
Doing it your way is likely to lead to over-pressurisation of the reservoir and the fluid being ejected over the reservoir cap and making a mess.
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Started putting the doors back together over the last three days. Was not looking forward to it as I knew it would be tricky to get right.
Started by installing new sound deadening material. Originally the car had a 1.5mm mat made from bitumen glued to the middle of the inside door panel. Without it the door acts as a big drum. The new stereo generates so much sound pressure you can literally see it vibrate from the outside of the car. I had to improve on the factory design to counter this.
So I decided to go new school and employ a larger sheet of heavy duty aluminum faced butyl material backed with hard gripping adhesive. Very light and very very good deadening properties. Also weighs much less than the original material.
Fitted up one entire sheet per door. Much more surface area is covered compared to the original covering. The result is massive. The door sound very very solid and clunks shut with a much more pronounced thunk. Have tried to demonstrate how much of an effect it has with a little recording. One door with it and one without. I hit the doors with the same force and recorded from the same distance.
Moved on to putting the anti vibration material back onto the glass guide rails. The only purpose I can see that these have is to stop the ali greases guards from vibrating against the rails. Went to a fabric shop with my original sample and got the closest match I could. Only cost four dollars.
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Next I had to do work on replacing the rubber glass clamp bars where the rubber had perished and disintegrated. Glued up the new rubber and trimmed it back. Then just had to use a fine scalpel to cut the holes for the retaining bolts to go through.
The glass itself has four small holes cut in it to take the clamping bolts. The holes are oversize and there is a rubber tubes inserted between the bolt and the glass to prevent any nasty accidents.
Half of mine were missing when I got the car and the other half were very brittle so I decided to make us some new ones out of the left over clamp bar rubber. Worked a treat. Just took a while to get the length exactly right in order for the rubber so hold itself up exactly in the hole. I could have been patient and tried to source some exact tubing but I think this is just as good.
The lifter and the glass went in quite painlessly but I can tell I will have to spend quite a bit of time setting it all up. No point doing this until the rubber and top are back in. Will leave the door open.
Another problem I am hoping someone can help me with is the very lower ali garnish moldings which are held in place with small plastic clips. I for the life of me cannot understand how it works. The clips that came out of it just dont make sense to me and are barley wide enough to wedge under the two molding ledges.
I have a W108 clip that is almost identical other than it has two small wings which do home nicely in the W113 molding. I need to know what I should be using and how to set it up. It would seem that somehow you push the clips into the car and then latter push or slid the molding onto the clips. I can imagine if you try and put the clips into the molding and then press on the molding that you might end up with some dents as the clips take quite a bit of force to home into the car body.
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...
Another problem I am hoping someone can help me with is the very lower ali garnish moldings which are held in place with small plastic clips. I for the life of me cannot understand how it works. The clips that came out of it just dont make sense to me and are barley wide enough to wedge under the two molding ledges.
I have a W108 clip that is almost identical other than it has two small wings which do home nicely in the W113 molding. I need to know what I should be using and how to set it up. It would seem that somehow you push the clips into the car and then latter push or slid the molding onto the clips. I can imagine if you try and put the clips into the molding and then press on the molding that you might end up with some dents as the clips take quite a bit of force to home into the car body.
See:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2981.msg59302#msg59302
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18100.msg126295#msg126295
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Andy,
Alfred's links above are critical to read.
The correct lower clips are essential to hold the aluminum moldings on. The key issue is to match the thicker aluminum doors to the right reveal on the clip. I believe there are 7 clips per side on each door, which means you need 14 yellow clips (or clear ones, if the old ones still have wings, and the plugs aren't cracked or brittle, which happens all the time). The little white plugs are also critical (which you push in after the clip is in the hole with a nail set), so I would not avoid them. Finally, don't forget to mount at least two metal pointy spring clips on each door between the white plug and the clip, as the doors closing all the time tend to want to shift the molding, which will create a nightmare if they slide too far.
The steel is much thinner than the aluminum, so you have to use the blue clips on the 2 lower moldings that are not on the doors. I'd use the blue clips. All the clips regardless of color should have wings and the wings should be mounted vertically. When you put the molding on, try to slide it onto the pointy metal clips from the side and the top, and once tight to the body on the top, just give i rap with your palm all along the bottom, and it should click in. The aluminum moldings dent, so be careful, and don't use a tool.
Hope this helps.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Thanks guys, awesome advice. I have decided to throw away all my old clips and start again. SLS have just taken my first order with them. The 46 euro package does however carry a 56 Euro postage fee. mmmm
I have another door query for you all as well. I am 100% certain that some of the adjusters from my doors were missing when I got it.
I am not sure what I am suppose to have. SLS shows two per door I think. One of the stops looks as if its got a top and bottom sop. Take a look at the photo as is quite hard to describe.
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As well as the stopper issue I also would dearly love a photo of another pieces of rubber I can see on the SLS parts breakdown which never existed on my car when I purchased it. I cant quite figure out where it goes from the parts list.
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.../.. pieces of rubber .../.. I can´t quite figure out where it goes
Andy,
Take a look in this thread:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12496.0 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12496.0)
/Hans in Sweden
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Good find Hans, wonder why they are listed in the MB parts book under doors rather than the hard top???
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Hello again,
the rubber part is on the soft top frame. Here is a picture that shows its function, namely to cushion the bottom end of the soft top frame vertical stay,
over the B pillar. Prevent damage to the chrome cover. See borrowed picture which I put some text onto.
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans, I checked my soft top this morning and indeed they have the pads. I will leave it until I have this apart. A big rule of mine is dont take stuff apart until you have time to work on it so it will probably have to wait for another couple of weeks at least.
In the meantime I am now trying to solve another little mystery. I remember taking off some earth straps attached to either the tach or speedo cables, perhaps both. Now that its come time to put them back I cant figure out where they go. I also have a mystery third cable. Does anyone know where this one goes. Photos of all three locations would be fantastic. I have looked in the parts breakdown and cant find them also did a search in here using various keywords which turned up nada.
Sent a message off to SLS to see if they have the straps as well. They are pretty tatty so think I will replace them.
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Andy,
perhaps these photos might help taking care of two of the three strips.
The 3rd strip is shown in Figure 11 in the suppression installation instructions in the technical manual.
Just download and take a look: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Radio
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Thanks Alfred. Think the RHD locations may be a bit different but those pics did help. Still a mystery to where the third cable goes. SLS suggested it may be the clock. My car didn't have a clock in it when I purchased it so it wont be that. Then they suggested it was the engine to sub frame earth strap. I thought that a bit odd but could be a possibility.
The last couple of days have been hard as my back is playing up a bit. I forged ahead and got into the chrome waist moldings. Backed all eight pieces with PVC tape to prevent chaffing and vibrations. Then had to drill out a few holes where the last owner had used wood screws to hold the molding on. I welded them back up during the panel phase and then re-drilled them yesterday. Quite a nervous exercise. Definitely a case of measure 20 cut once.
Cutting in the new rubber molding was a bit of an exercise. I started off by trying to cut the pieces to size before fitting and also cutting the small 45 chambers on each end. But but the second or third molding I had changed my technique and just fitted the rubber off the spool and cut only when I needed to. Got a much tighter fit and then just tidied up with a Stanley knife.
All in all happy with the result. The devil is definitely in the detail!
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Andy,
Of course this thread is amazing.
Thank you for telling the story.
I have a question. I have heard the rubber you are putting into the moldings shrinks at some point.
Are you cutting them long and squeezing them in?
Are you taking that into account when installing them, or have you pre-shrunk them in some way??
Or maybe the shrinking idea is not true?
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Hi Iconic. Thanks for your kind sentiments.
I had considered the rubber would shrink. What I took out was by the look of it very old and it didn't appear to have reduced in length at all. Was still tight at the ends.
I did try and compress up the rubber as much as possible. I would suggest that the problem arises when the installer actually stretches the rubber when installing and over time it naturally shrinks back to its original size. I did notice that when you install this stuff your natural tendency as your stuffing it into the channel is to pull against the already installed length which is where the stretching would occur.
I made sure when I was putting it in that I was installing it in compression. Also why I started installing it off the reel to make sure I wasn't tempted to stretch it to fit.
In any event its not the most expensive problem to put right even if you do botch it up. Will see over the next year or so if it moves.
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Worked yesterday on finishing up the door internals. I used lithium grease to lube up the lifting mechanism. Worked beautifully and now glides very smoothly.
I wasn't happy with the way the window hit the bottom stop though. Mercedes seemed to have just glued two rubber mats to the bottom of the door for the two lowest points on the lifter to rest down on. They give a small amount of damping but the window still comes to a pretty abrupt halt. I decided to glue two blocks of 10mm closed cell foam to the factory mats. Worked a treat and the makes the winding mechanism just that much more slick. Comes to a nice smooth halt now.
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Finished up the day fitting the two doors with the brand new oem door rubbers. Unlike the aftermarket crud I initially purchased two years ago these measured up to the mm.
I would say they were a pleasure to install but that might be going a little far. I used high temp ados to glue them up. Only two of the three edges need to be glued. In the door jam the metal plates hold the rubber securely in place. Absolute b$%ch to get the small screws into the door jam plates. Definitely need a special screwdriver small enough to get into the limited space. I used a small ratchet with a removable bit. The factory more than likely built the entire door up off the car including the rubber so would have avoided this toil.
The new rubbers were initially very very stiff and made shutting the door quite difficult, but after opening and closing the door 20 or so times things worked themselves in and they now a very nice positive feel to them. That nice Mercedes clunk.
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Started pulling apart the old door cards today. Not a job I have been looking forward to. I put it off when I did the rest of the interior as I knew it would be tricky.
When I pulled them off the car I noticed that there were lots of extra screws and also one of the cards had been reinforced with a second layer of card. Just had a hunch that things weren't as they should be.
Pulling off the arm rests and map pocket revealed that the arm rests were a bit dodgy. All the extra screws were used to hold this to the door card. Still didn't think it was too bad and proceeded.
Drilled out all the factory rivets holding the top rail to the cardboard backing. Really flat rivets which I think I am going to struggle to reproduce. I might have to use slightly thicker closed cell foam to hide any lumps when I put it all back together.
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I have seen and studied quite a few online photos of door cards over the past couple of years. One thing that I have seen often, even on fresh professional restorations is slight sagging in the door card leather or MB tex. I even noticed it on a couple of the uber 250k Euro Brabus 113's. I have pondered the reason for it and am wondering if its due to the lack of rigidity that the cardboard backing supplies.
I am wondering if when the cards are covered, with leather or MB tex, that the covers are likely to be stretched out and fitted on a perfectly flat table onto a perfectly flat backing card. If you look at the panel in the door its go an ever so slight curve on it toward the front top of the door. Thats where I have seen quite a few that sag. Usually just around the door opener handle.
I am wondering when the boards are put back on and the slight bend applied if it might loosen up the material and predispose it to sagging.
Just a theory at this point but I am wondering if its worth my while to take out a bit of extra insurance to make sure this doesn't happen to mine.
First out of the gate I am wondering if I should try and reproduce the backing board in something a bit more rigid and durable. I have previously cut backing boards out of thin hard plastic sheet. Very cheap and easy to work with. The stuff you can buy at hardware stores used to create splash back in showers does the trick nicely. You can get a full sheet for about 50 dollars which is enough to do both doors.
The stuff I use measure up at 3mm and the cardboard from the factory is 2.5 so it could cause some issue when you fold leather around it and then try and poke it in the U channel at the bottom of the door.
The up side is that you definitely will never have a swollen, bulging door panel and can probably do away with gluing up the protective plastic sheet over the door as was done at the factory.
The new backing cardboard from GAHH probably cost a couple of hundred dollars. Not the end of the world if I end up not using them. They will also make excellent templates to cut out the plastic versions. Its a living nightmare to try and use old boards to do this. Think inevitably never end up lining.
I am interested to see what you guys think about this and if anyone else has made cards out of plastic before. Will sleep on this one before making any hard decisions.
Moved on from this little diversion and started stripping the old parts of the various layers of glue. Its always an unpleasant messy task that take quite a long time to get right. I would personally rather paint strip than glue strip!
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Went on this evening to further strip down the arm rests. The full extent of the damage to both sides is now apparent. I dont think they are available new any longer. SLS are listing them as NLA and Buds dont even list them.
So I guess I am into another fiberglass repair job. I think I will probably try and use a really strong epoxy glue to glue on the inside an aluminum rib or inert. Then go over the top with a couple of layers of fiberglass. Probably add a good 4mm of meat to the inside of it right along the mating surface that butts up against the door.
Will then have to reduce the horse hair carefully by the same amount so it slots back in the plastic body. Am quietely confident that I will be able to make it much stronger than it was at the factory. Personally think the design is a bit flawed and that quite probably the majority of early 230's will have the same issue? Again I am interested to here from anyone who has tackled this problem before.
Finished up with a final tidy up of all the ali panels. Just need to sort out the door cards and fix these arm rest and I will be on the home straight.
We have a big car show here in NZ this coming weekend and I am fully worked up to try and get the car on the road for it. Still waiting for some critical parts to get the clutch going but they are now only days away as well and then I am theoretically driving after bleeding up the clutch. Will be a big day for me.
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Andy,
Just a little tip. In the recess marked in your picture here, a special plug fits see part 355 in the attached door assembly illustration
/Hans in Sweden
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Cheers Hans. I was aware of the plugs. I have left them off for the time being as I have to come back and adjust the door glass one last time when the soft top goes back on. One of my plugs has also had it so sm ordering a new one from buds. Great spotting.
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Andy,
Thanks for your response regarding the rubber strips in the molding.
You brought up several good points that make sense and will help me out.
Thanks again.
Mark
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No worries Iconic. A pleasure to help.
Today I embarked on the repair of the arm rests. Started by removing all the layers of old glue to give me a better idea of how to tackle the job. Decided to use Q Bond for the initial 'hold together' repair and then reinforce with two or three layers of fiberglass.
Using the Q Bond was a total pleasure. Instant gratification and a very very strong initial repair. Cant stop singing its praises. I laid down a layer on the inside first. Worked the powder into the cracks and then applied the setting agent. Even after the first 5mm length went down the entire thing felt solid.
Repeated the process on the out side of the arm rest as well. By the time I had finished it felt very solid and I almost consider just calling it quits and put the thing back together.
Decided to resist the temptation and drove into town and purchased another small fiberglass repair kit for 12 dollars.
Put down the first coat tonight. I went a bit light on the hardner and its taking a while to go off. Hopefully will be able to put another layer on tonight and trim it back in the morning ready for reassembly.
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Also cleaned up the pads tonight. The last upholsterer glued 8mm of open cell foam to it. Quite a mess to clean off. Took an hour or so of plucking. Nice and tidy ready to glue back into the repaired shells tomorrow. May have to trim a few mm off these to cater for the fiberglass build.
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Finished up the repairs to the arm rests today. Have increased the wall thickness from 2mm to 8mm so hopefully they wont break again. They certainly feel very solid and much heavier than stock.
Glued up the horse hair pads and then did a trial fit into the GAHH supplied cover. It came up a bit baggy so I decided to cover the top face of the pad with open cell foam. Worked a treat and the result looks spot on.
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Started thinking about the main door card this arvo. I decided to just push ahead with normal rivets. Found some small cup washers to use on the cardboard side to prevent the rivet pulling through the card. When I took them off four or five of the factory rivets were on there way. Hopefully I have come up with a good compromise.
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Andy
Every time I open this thread (daily) I am in awe of your skills. I am sure at times it feels like a lonely journey and that you feel like you are talking to yourself when you post in the thread but the work, descriptions and photos a simply amazing - both as a testament to your skill/dedication/inventiveness and as a record of how you're approaching your work which in turn will help others.
What you gonna do when it's finished? ;D
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Hi James, very very kind of you. I dont however believe I am doing anything different than the hundred of talented members in here other than carefully documenting what I have done. In fact half the stuff I have done I wonder what all the pro's in here think. Can imagine I have caused quite a bit of eye rolling. None of my efforts have been 'professional'.
Needless to say I am happy I have given you some degree of entertainment. At the end of the day its what its all about isn't it?
I dont know what I am going to do when I finish the car. One think I do know is that this is the last one. I need to renovate our house which I have been putting off for quite some years due to car related projects.
I am half way through an automated entrance gate project which I need to finish. I have been doing this for the past 6 months at the same time as the car. Have done all the automation and software including full automatic plate recognition, anpr, that will open he gates when friends or family rock up. My other projects are half the reason I am making such slow progress.
Also have a 1960's New Zealand Telecom phone box I purchased a few years back sitting on my front lawn. Absolutely fantastic piece of NZ history. Came complete with the original dial phone. I want to restore it and get the phone operational. Quite a neat place to retreat to and talk to a friend when the wife is getting on my case.
In any event I have quite a while before I have finished the 113. Still have the hard and soft top to restore and I am expecting to take the engine or gearbox out due to some cock up I have made.
So I dont think you have quite seen the back of me yet ;)
Would love to get to know about all you guys a bit more as well. I do feel quite lonely in here sometimes. Would be fantastic to here more about everyone else. I am very aware of how I babble on and what others might be thinking.
I suggested to Peter that we start another main section dedicated to other projects members have on the go. Think the people behind these cars are just as interesting as the cars themselves. Sort of shows through with the popularity of the thread about members professions.
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Andy,
Having "finished" my project last year (for now), I find myself quite adrift. I am living vicariously by stopping by Joe Alexander's shop helping a little with his projects. Guess I need to restore my single digit golf handicap next. Either that or a 1958 Imperial.....
Keep up the good work, and let the rest of us be voyeurs into your project.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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My parcel from Buds finally arrived with the clutch hose, heat shield and a few other bits and pieces. Thought today would be the day that I could drive the car out of the garage.
Not to be. Started well with the engine heat shield flying back on but when I went to fit the clutch hose and then bleed it I started to run into problems. The clutch pedal is behaving quite oddly. The first part of the travel of the pedal is ok and the clutch pedal spring is in compression so when the pedal is released it spring back to where it started. But halfway through the travel the pedal seems to falcrum around a sort of turning point where the spring goes from compression into expansion toward the floor. Net result you put your foot on the pedal and half way down the travel its shoots to the floor with a wack. Dont know if this is normal or what I have done wrong.
The clutch bleeding was also a disaster. I thought that once the clutch was bleed that the hydraulic resistance might counter my nasty little spring issue. I just couldn't bleed it. Bleed all the nipples but the master still has an empty feeling and is definitely not producing any significant hydraulic pressure.
After a couple of hours I gave up.
Decided that the brakes would give me no such ssues. Out of the box the brake pedal felt as it should even without fluid in it. Opened up the two rear nipples and let the fluid gravity bleed through. Waiting a good half an hour until quite a bit of fluid has been moved through. Wife patiently squirting the brake pedal under my guidance for an hour or so produce nada.
Don't know how to tackle it now. Suppose I need a back bleeder or some magic advice on technique.
Definitely wont be going to the show tomorrow.
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The clutch bleeding .../... I just couldn't bleed it I gave up
You need to bleed the clutch system from underneath. Clutch pedal up (in resting position), go below and open nipple on slave cylinder and feed fluid in so that system fills from below. I do it by means of brake fluid into a pump oil can, its [cut] hose onto slave cylinder nipple and then lots of little pump strokes... :)
/Hans in Sweden
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That spring system on the clutch pedal is to assist you overcome the pressure plate. It is adjustable but you can't adjust it until the system is bled.
The method described by Hans is the best one. But you first need to make sure that the piston in the master cylinder sits in its resting place (up). If the piston is on its way down it will obstruct the port connecting the master cylinder to the reservoir and you won't be able to bleed the system. There is a spring inside but the master cylinder may have ended up a bit sticky if not in use in the past couple of years. To make sure the piston is up you need to undo the pipe under the master cylinder and introduce a rod inside and push the piston up. I use a small allen key for that. Then you need to make sure that the rod connecting the pedal to the piston is correctly adjusted and that it is not pushing the piston down when the pedal is released. For this you need to feel a bit of play when you wiggle the rod after having pushed the piston up. If you can't feel that little play, adjust the ex-centered adjustment bolt on the pedal so that you can feel the play. Make sure the piston is fully up after adjusting.
Then reconnect every thing, and like Hans said, connect a hose between an oil can full of brake fluid and the opened bleeder on the slave cylinder and start pumping the oil can. When you see fluid reaching into the reservoir in the engine bay, tighten the bleeder and you should be done.
For the brakes, you should do only one wheel at the time. You start by the furthest from the master cylinder and you end by the closest. In your case you need to start with the rear left, then rear right, then front left, then front right.
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Also, you have to make sure your clutch master cylinder is in perfect condition. If it isn't, it will start leaking from the top and you will end up ruining your new carpet and paint underneath.
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Thanks guys. I have bleed quite a few systems in my day so am quite familiar with the drill. GGR, started with the left rear (RHD) and couldn't get even a hint of fluid out of it. Hans I hadn't yet thought of back bleeding the clutch. Its such a short run that I thought it would have been a doddle to get fluid through it all with conventional methods. My gear is now all brand new. Clutch and Brake master and clutch slave so I shouldn't be having any difficulties unless its faulty from Buds.
I opened up all the rear brake bleeds today and waited for an hour to see if I could get something through via gravity. Gravity, it appears, is frowning upon me today. Am thinking of getting a fancy version of Han's brilliant oil can (which I dont have) and am looking at one of these from ali express http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hand-Brake-Bleeder-Tester-Set-Bleed-Kit-hand-Vacuum-Pump-Car-Motorbike-Bleeding-Bleeder-Set-Vacuum/32278168932.html
In the mail this morning I received my package from SLS containing my lower ali clips. Coincidentally just as my back was starting to play up Accident Compensation kindly sent me a waist and back support which has made things much easier today.
A really good tip that Rodger passed on to me when dealing with SLS is that although they don't advertise it they are prepared to put small shipments in an A4 sized bubble wrap envelope and post untracked for 3 Euro. Mine only took 5 working days to arrive so much better than out of the states, HK or England. Also beats the hell out of paying 70 Euro for the same parcel tracked. Still don't quite understand the disparity.
So in the absence of a brake and clutch helper, aka the very very lovely ball and chain, I decided to fit up the remaining trim. The clips came with no instruction so I used what I have read from in here. I have read quite a few threads. Quite a few opinion on how to do it. Some use the white plugs some dont etc.
The first thing that I figured out is that the two small wings on the side of the clip dont actually slip/clip under the molding two rails. They infact just act as a buffer for the molding to press up against and hold it slightly off the paintwork. All my original clips had their wings pulled off so I guess the last installer had the same confusion one way or another.
The second thing I sorted out is that the hole in the car should be 8mm in diameter or you will end up with a plug that doesn't fit, either to tight or loose. Most of mine were fine. I had to drill out a few tight ones and gently repaint the holes with etch to prevent further rusting.
One I sorted this I was flying. The plugs are quite deceptive little creatures as well. You really have to give them a good clout to knock them all the way home. If you dont they wont have any effect and the plug could well pop out at some point. I am wondering if this is where some members have come to the conclusion they are not necessary.
Fitting up the moldings is quite easy but a little never wracking. Everything is symmetrical so you can decide to either initially hook the molding over the top or bottom of the clips. What ever you choose you then have to come back and apply quite a bit of pressure to the opposite side of the molding to get it to click into place. The clicking is actually just pushing the molding over the face of the clip. There is bugger all holding it in place, probably a matter of half a millimeter on each side of the molding.
In the end my favored technique was to give the molding a quick and very controlled smack with my open palm.
A big caveat is that before you start putting on the moldings make sure you check that there is no damage to the rails that the clips home on. This is especially true in my case where the moldings were taken off by a novice... namely me. An inexperienced remover may well pry of the trim and bend out the rails. If they are not straitened carefully then you wont get the clips to sit right and probably end up bashing the trim hard enough to dent it.
I am really happy all my trim is back on. Its second hand so not perfect. A couple of pieces I will replace when I finally get the resources to do so. But for the mean time its another thing accomplished.
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This evening I couldn't help myself. I promised my wife I would stay away from the car and rest my back, which is playing up a bit after rolling under the car doing the brakes and clutch, but I got bored out of my tree reading and decided to sneak back in and do a couple of easy job.
Installed the new air filter tub seal. My old one was almost disintegrated and as well as the tub top rattling around you could also here air being sucked in the sides. The new seal was a bit tricky to get in. Sits in a deep channel and you have to carefully stuff it in bit by bit. I used a bit of CRC to help me along in the difficult patches.
I made a huge difference and the unit is notably quieter. Well spent money.
Moved back to my upholstery. Decided to give one of the hard map pockets a try. Got the worst one to practice on. Its the passenger side and had heaps of dents. Just goes to show that typically the driver cares much more about his/her car than the passenger!
I was going to put 3mm closed cell foam over it to hide the dents but decided to give panel-beating them out a go. Used a very large socket as the dolly and gently fettled away until I was happy. Worked really well and is now probably flatter than the drivers side. So I decided to go ahead and glue up a test run of leather. It came out so well I have decided to run with it. Was quite tricky getting the very sharp angles on the bottom right. You have to loose a lot of leather around these corners. I started here where I could stretch the excess in all directions before things were tightened up. It looks ever so slightly bunched in comparison to the stretched leather but that is to be expected. No creases which is excellent.
Car show tomorrow. Will be at least a couple of nice pagodas so I will take some pics for you guys.
Back on to the job on Monday or if I get bored.
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Your wife is either a saint or she hates you.... ;D
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Probably a bit of both. I must admit i wouldnt like to live with my clone.
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The type of oil can you need to bleed the clutch is this one:
(http://d2pbmlo3fglvvr.cloudfront.net/product/full/1EKE7_AS01.JPG)
I hade the same issue with the rear brakes when I first got my Pagoda. No fluid was reaching the calipers when I was trying to bleed them. Culprit was the proportioning valve. I took it apart, cleaned it and everything went back to normal.
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Thanks GGR. Have the car show today. Will check out the price of a new oil can or buy the bleeded kit.
Not sure if the 230 has a proportion valve. It has a brass fitting at the rear of the car but I thought it was just a distribution block.
Have the morning off. Taking my boy a car show.
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I don't know if drum brake Pagodas have that proportioning valve. My wife's fintail has a residual pressure valve in the master cylinder for the rear brakes line. I guess you car has the same. It may be the culprit. To know for sure you may undo the rear brakes line from the master cylinder. If you do not have any fluid coming out when you press on the pedal then there must be something wrong with that valve. You can get it out by undoing the bigger bolt in which the rear brakes line bolts itself.
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GGR, I need to do a bit more research but your suggestions are great. Will check the valve next time I am able. My back took a hammering lying on the floor the other day so I am taking a bit of a break until it recovers.
I spent this morning with my young chap at the galaxy of cars. Regional car show here put on to raise money for charity. The Mercedes club here get involved every year. Usually a huge turn out. This year the rain pelted down on us and the turn out wasn't as good as previous years.
Still a few interesting car including three or four pagodas. drmb also had his lovely silver coupe fresh from a major refurbishment. Exquisite piece of machinery in every respect. Would love one along side the pagoda in the garage.
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Got home and decided to have a crack at finishing off the map pockets and arm rests. Am really sick of them and want the job in the rear vision mirror. Think I have a few more days yet on the door cards. The leather on the pockets turned out to be quite hard to get right. Lots of angles. All bolted back up with the pocket now and ready to put back on.
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...
An important detail when it comes to the Pagoda doors interior are the plastic sheets that must be in place. Often missing. These sheets protect the door cards from moisture.
See attached picture. Spray glue may be used to fit the plastic sheet, however I use a malleable gumlike black material from car glass repair shops.
/Hans in Sweden
Hans,
I have also used butyl tape to fix the plastic to the door frame. To separate the plastic it helps to use a hair dryer to warm up the seal.
Most modern cars use this tape for this purpose. It is good for several removals and resealing.
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Last night I moved on to gluing up the door card leather. The key to success here is getting the sewn in panel taught and straight and in the right position on the panel. Harder than it sounds and really a job for two people.
The door card leather has a very fine material sewn into it along the 60mm panel. These are used to secure this critical element to the door card and keep it from moving. If you get it wrong the panel would just look wrong.
Came up with a plan, be it right or wrong, on how to get it looking half decent.
Got both the panels look good with the panels both ready to just secure off the leather. None of the leather is actually glued. The 60mm panel is glued in place via the sewn in material and then the leather is simply pulled taught and stapled around the back of the panel using 2mm staples.
I dont have any 2mm staples and spent good part of the morning trying to secure some. Finally phoned up a local trimmer who offer to give me some. Took the boards out to show him and he offered to finish them off for me while I waited. Had to get home to pick up the kids so I left them with him. Nice to have some professional help. I kind of wanted to finish them off myself but at this point with my dicky back am happy for any help at all. Graciously accepted the offer.
I had all the pocket and arm rest assemblies with me and he complemented on the job done. Always a real buzz when a professional gives praise.
Hopefully will pick up the finished cards in the next couple of days and put everything back in the car to finish off the interior.
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Moved on to the inner guards panels this arvo. The new rubber seal arrived from Buds (thanks David) this week. I am wondering if the factory used any other sealing strips on this panel other than this strip. It would be easy to wack on a few 2mm closed cell strips on all the other mating surfaces.
Also just working through the securing screws. It seems that over the years some of the body holes have been over sized. I missed this detail when doing the body work. I would have otherwise welded shut the holes and started fresh to ensure all the fasteners are identical. Missed that boat and will have a slight variation which will no doubt cost me at least a couple of hours of sleep.
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Andy
Mine had a thick body caulk on those areas that you have the additional seal. They had never been removed before so definitely original.
Scott
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Thanks Scott. Dont really like the caulking concept. If you drop the panels you stuff the seal. Interesting knowing what the factory did. If you have some pics I would love to see them.
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No I don't. I'll use caulking again on mine. I can't imagine having to take the splash guard out again.
The rate it's going, I can't imagine ever refitting it either.
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Fair call Scott. I need mine out again at some point as I need to install baffling on the out panels as the audio I have installed is reverberating through all three panels.
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Yesterday I repaired the card that tucks up on the right hand side of the boot. The original looked fairly manky. Horrible attempt by previous owner to tart it up with some cheap and nasty paint. Also had a bad tear up the top left corner. Even though its not visible unless you happen to have been abducted and thrown facing up in the boot with a flash light strapped to your head you would never know. In any event I decided it would be easier and better to retain the original.
I repaired the tear using epoxy gel and a very thin coat of fiberglass on the rear side of the card. Also glued up 6mm foam on the rear which prevent vibrations and gives a bit of anti drumming ability to the long rear panel.
Now I just have to figure out the petrol breather and associated pipes and clips. Anyone have a photo handy of the setup.
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Picked up the door cards from the upholsterer yesterday. Made a few adjustments to them. Was a bit dissapointed as the only reason I took it to them was that I didn't have a staple gun capable of pushing 2-4mm staples. The backs were crudely glued down. They charged me 180 dollars which was more than I thought it would have been even with the staples.
Trimmed up the leather hanging loose on the rear and cleaned off all the excess glue that had been sprayed everywhere. Then fitted up my arm rests and hard pocket. All went in quite smoothly. I was very very very careful about cutting holes. Used a pin initially to mark the leather with tiny holes where the door cards from buds had their holes drilled. Just in case. When I was sure everything was in the right position I used a fine scalpel to part the leather. Nerve wracking.
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Moved on today with finishing up the door so I can put the door card back on. I am in half a mind as to leave it off until the soft top is back on. I know that to set up the door properly I need the hard top first but this is so far off I think I will just try and get the soft top back in the next couple of weeks and then put the card back on.
In the mean time I started looking at all the control rods for the door opener and locking mech. When I pulled them I knew I had a bit of a mare on my hands as all the rubber circular plugs that the control cables ran through were either missing or disintegrated in my hands when I pulled them out. At the time I made esquires with buds and they were NLA. I think they told me that they may be able to rustle up a second hand set but wanted 10US each. Fair enough given how rare they are. Probably should have taken them up on the offer but it just got forgotten amongst all the other huge tasks that I had on the boil at that point in time.
They are unique in that the plug portion of it is designed to go though the 5mm thick ali door frame. I had several sets of good W108 ones that I had looked at a year ago. They only have to seat into 1-2mm thick steel panels so the profile was completely different and I quickly gave up on the idea.
I had a second look at them today and decided to give it go re-profiling them to suit. Used my dremel with a very fine cutting wheel to carefully extend the channel to around that 4-5mm mark. Just enough meat on them to do at and it means that the rod runs 2mm closer to the door panel.
Fitted it all up and it worked a treat. Everything cleared an more importantly the plugs hold very very well.
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Some questions about the doors for you guys. See photos ...
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I had fitted up the soft top hatch rubber a couple of days ago and then very quickly I had the hatch lid on and adjusted beautifully. Then today I decided to pop the hatch to retrieve a screw driver I had left in the top cavity. No response. The passenger side undid but the drivers side stayed latched. I could tell immediately by the feel of the handle that the cable had either pulled out or broken. Flash light on the job to confirm the latter. Took me a good hour to free the other side. Ended up going in with a thin piece of custom shaped metal and sliding it down the face of the latch.
Did a quick internet check and Buds are listing a new cable for 300USD. SLS dont have it available. Pretty down in the dumps about it as I dont have the cash and its going to prevent me from driving the car. Suppose I could just lock it again but dont want to go through the manual release process again. Risks damaging the paint etc.
Its only the inner cable thats damaged so I am thinking I might try and find another similar control cable and somehow splice them together. Any one tackled this before????
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Andy,
same thing happened to me. Fortunately a member here ("Memmo") sells a new wire with a connector for 25 Euro plus shipping.
Send him a PM, or through his web site: http://www.pagode-markt.de/
Click on "Nachfertigungen", then click on "Lasche Verdeckverriegelung" and you can see product.
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Hi Andy,
In your photos of post 1432, everywhere you have your red arrows, I used exactly the same black butyl tape on the (Partition Panels, in the EPC), (splash shields, in the US auto industry) that Alfred and Hans used for the plastic door sheets. Note, however, that my car is painted dunkelblau 332 (I call it midnight blue) so the black butyl tape doesn't really show after cleanup with a tiny wooden homemade spatula, although after a few days or weeks, it keeps squeezing out of the joint and has to be re-scraped away. You might prefer to use another type of waterproof sealant (thinner, like caulking, previously mentioned, or tape to make cleanup a one-time job), but if I were you, I would definitely seal the "partition panels" to the inner fender and footwell floor pan in the wheel well.
I suppose you (and everyone else who's done it) have noticed how difficult the outer partition panel seal is to get in the proper position against the inner fender wall. Fun isn't it. I used a homemade metal hook to get behind the rubber lip and pull it out like a cord pulls out the rubber lip of a windshield seal.
Tom Kizer
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For Post 1440: Yes Andy, door pull only on the passenger side.
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And for question 1 i believe it is for the door armrest.
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Big thanks for all your responses. Steered me back on course again. Have decided to slow down again and concentrate on a few of these niggly prothems rather than charge ahead just to see a bit of road time before the end of summer. There is always next summer.
I have taken a big step back from the door cards and decided to resarch them much more thouroughly before the final fit. Lots more detail to get them right than i had thought. the new cards dont match up perfectly which is of major concern.
have also decided to get the hatch mechanism working perfectly. Will get a new cable first up. Also looking at another issue that worried me on day one. The hatch release lever slots into an arm. The end of the lever shaft has had the two sides of the round machined flat. The arm has the opposite machining.
i am assuming the two mating surfaces should be a very tight fit with no slop. Mine has about 20 degees of slop in one diection and about 5 in the other. I am worried that this wear is excessive and that at some point the shaft will loose all tolerance/interference with the arm and spin.
The wear all appears to be on the arm. The levers are available but the arm seem to be impossible to source.
i am thinking i could weld the arm shut and get my cnc mate to refrofile it for me.
As always i am interested in everyones thoughts
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Day off today. Took the young boy to the 42nd Intermarque Concours d'Elegance, New Zealand foremost car show. Yesterday they held several runs all around Auckland, all meeting centrally along the waterfront in a huge grassed car park. Quite an awesome day which I really really really tried hard to get mine ready for. Was a huge disappointment for me no making it. Hopefully I will be able to attend next year.
Today was the actual Concours. I have been eagerly awaiting the day as Lloyd, or drmb as you guys know him, has finally after many years of toil managed to get number 25 of 27 aluminum gull-wing ready for display. This particular car has very special provenance having been owned by Sterling Moss from new. I think they made the aluminum versions to satisfy homogenization rules in the day to be able to compete at Le Mans and the like. Very unique very very beautiful finished in its unusual but original factory color.
Very very privileged to see one of these in this condition down here in New Zealand. Rare sight indeed.
It a massive credit to Lloyd and his team and a wonderful showcase for his world class restoration abilities. Amazing degree of NZ restoration talent on show. Made me feel very proud to be a Kiwi. I didn't stay around for the judging but undoubtedly it will do well (if not clean up). Am sure this one, like his last 300sl roadster, is bound to set the worldwide 300sl communities tongues wagging!
Stunning stunning stunning! Came home and looked at my work and felt quite depressed. :-\
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a few more
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a few more
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Beautiful work by Lloyd. Now I am jealous.
And a milestone to Andy, 1000 posts.
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this makes a nearly perfect score of one message/day since joining.
Andy, with such a presence it looks like you were enjoying the Club and its forum...
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I finally managed to get the clutch bleed last night. The normal way as well. In the end it was very easy after I sat down and thought things through. The trick ended up being to remove the clutch slave spring. If you dont every time you open the bleed nipple any fluid present in the clutch slave is ejected by means of this spring returning the internal piston back to it withdrawn most position.
When you put your foot down on the clutch pedal only a certain amount of fluid is displaced down the system to the slave. Even though there is about 4-5cm of travel on the piston only enough fluid is pushed through to move it 1-2cm. If the piston is withdrawn all the way to the back of the cylinder then there is not enough length in the adjustment rod to engage the clutch so its obvious that the piston has to start its travel a bit further down the cylinder.
So with the spring off and the bleed nipple closed a couple of pumps on the pedal moves the piston forwards as the slave cylinder fills. The difference being that it stays forward. I made sure the adjustment rod still had a good amount of adjustment left in it, ie it wasn't screwed to far out of the slave, and then pumped the pedal until the rod was just starting to engage the clutch.
Immediately I had full good clutch resistance.
I am wondering if the back bleeding method works as there is enough resistance backwards for the fluid to preload the slave with fluid and push the adjustment rod against the resistance of the spring.
In any event after I took this spring off two days of really unfruitful forward bleeding came good in about 10 seconds.
The brake bleeding was not as difficult and in another half an hour I had a drivable car.
Incredible feeling to be in it and moving after so long being an inanimate object parked in my garage.
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Someone installed a cap screw in place of the push pin. The push pin is smaller on the end that fits into the throw out fork and the head of the cap screw isn't sitting in that recess. This probably won't give you any trouble but I thought you might want to know about this.
You are right about removing that spring during adjustments or bleeding. The pin is adjusted correctly when you can feel a small amount of free play between the pin and the fork. Once you have this initial setting right the clutch should never need adjustment again as it's designed to self adjust as the clutch disc wears.
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Thanks Dan. I did notice that as well but it was what the original clutch had with it. I have another pin from a W108 that I had plated up. Looked much better but wasn't sure if it was interchangeable. With my new found knowledge about the clutch I believe your 100% correct and I probably should change it over. Will have a look tomorrow.
In the mean time I have bigger fish to fry. The hot start issue just isn't going away and has indeed got worse during the short runs. I ended up getting stranded up the road after I stalled it. Lucky that I was on a bit of a hill and managed to push start it which I probably should have avoided.
Will go through all the diagnostics over the next couple days. Am certain its not the linkage setup. Gut is telling me its the fuel delivery pump. Given my previous investigations with it only delivering 8-9psi I think it has to be the top of the suspect list. Just grin and smile. I think after a certain length of ownership with these little beauties the grin and smile through gritted teeth becomes second nature. Kinda like a stroppy teenage daughter.
I dont quite know what to do here. My options are either rebuild or replace. I have the original long version which I would like to keep for originality. I have seen various repair kits. I cant quite understand looking at the supplied components how I am going to restore the pumps performance. Can any one shed some light on this.
Also I would like to understand why a slightly lower pressure would result in this hot start issue. If there is enough pressure to start it cold why not hot. I have read that it could be a cooling issue with the pumped fuel being required to keep in the injection pump cool and free of vapor locking issues.
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Andy,
According to the EPC, that W113 clutch slave cylinder pushrod is part number A1112950733 and is used on many 111s, 108s, as well as many other MBs of the era.
Tom Kizer
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Mmmmmmm. Professional photo hot off the press
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Hi Andy, like you I would like to know how the primary pump can affect hot start/stalls. If low pressure or volume, to the injector pump. were the problem then why wouldn't the motor labour or stall at cold under load accelerating through the gears if you pushed it hard. If the ignition system is all good it sounds like something downstream of the injector pump area. I understand this is a common problem which fortunately I don't have myself.
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Yesterday I fitted up the dreaded splash panels. I had heard and read that they were likely to give 'trouble'. They didn't disappoint but were not as bad as I had expected.
I decided not to use calking as the factory did as I want to be able to remove the panel for inspection and also to be able to install further sound dead material to the back of the inner panel if I need it.
I decided to go ahead with rubber as its likely to be far more long lasting than any foam. I used a 3M product over the cheaper ones as I suspect the material is of much better quality. Also decided to get one with several barrier ridges in it specifically designed for keeping water out. It only cost seven dollars more than the cheapest variant so probably money well spent.
Glued it all up and cut the holes for the screws. The Previous owner had over-sized all bar two or three of the original body holes so I had no choice but to use slightly oversized panel screws. Dug into my pot of miscellaneous nuts and bolts to find a good set of matching Mercedes screws.
The panels went on quite easily once I had established a good installation sequence. It took a few goes to get it right. To get the panel in place it would help to have the whole wheel off. I couldn't be bothered so initially just turned the wheel to its extreme to give the required access.
The next trick is to angle the entire section of rubber that meets the guard into place behind the rolled lip of the guard. Next push the panel up and into place and secure the top 3 bolts. Then just work your way down with the remaining 3.
One thing I did cock up on the first of the panels was not making sure I had the seal on the guard rolled into the right position before I started bolting up. Not a major but it meant that I spend a good 20 mintues with small screw drivers turning over the rolled seal.
Used a soft rubber hammer to mold the panel edges back into a perfect position and clamp down on the non factory rubber seals. It worked really well and everything now looks very tight indeed.
Finished up by painting the bolts in the factory silver to keep everything looking original. Also finished off the sill over panel by screwing it to the splash panel top and bottom. I think this is factory. I had two holes top and bottom before I started so followed the lead.
Another job out the way and a few less parts on the 'to do' table.
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Hello Andy,
The finish work on your splash panels looks very good. As far as hot starting, less pressure means less volume when the starting valve opens. Also less pressure is less circulation in the system. Less fuel circulates and it circulates slower. The slow moving fuel heats up more when traveling through the engine compartment. Slow moving fuel means hotter fuel which has more of a tendency to vapor lock, especially when the engine is hot!
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Hi Joe, thanks mate. Awesome advice and confirmation on what I suspected.
I have been avoiding the reality that it might be the delivery pump due to the very high associated costs of putting it right. I am just trying to understand your point about the pressure not being as high when the valve opens. I may have this wrong but does this mean that there is a relationship between the output and input pressure of the FIP. I was under the impression that delivery pump just circulated fuel through the FIP's petrol reservoir and the only time this could impact on the FIP's output pressure and volume was if the reservoir of fuel it had to suck from ran dry.
I am in agreement that I may have a vapor lock issue. Joe can you let me know what you think about the delivery pump being rebuilt with new seals ie will it likely restore full pressure and volume. I really need some guidance on which way to go here. I probably can afford a rebuild kit but if I have to go for a new pump it will delay the project by months.
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Rats and mice day today. I did managed to get the car started and moved it out of the garage. Love seeing it out in natural light for a change. Couldn't resist a few quick photos.
For the first time in a year or so I managed to clean the garage floor. It has got to quite an atrocious state with layer upon layer of grease, paint, under-seal and all manner of leaked lubricants. Did my best with heavy degreaser but will really give it another birth day when the project is finished. Probably will need four litres of paint stripper! My efforts have however resulted in a much nicer feel and smell to the place.
Then moved onto Dans suggestion that I have the wrong clutch pin. I found my W108 version and it seems to be huge in comparison. I then located the slave cylinder that I pulled out of the car. I replaced it as it was seeping fluid. Its pin looks identical to what I currently have. Dan can you take a quick look at the photos and let me know if I should be swapping it out for the gold W108 version.
Sorted out the boot as well. Fitted up all the gas tank breather set up to the best of my ability. I hadn't taken a single photo of this area when I pulled it apart so was going on pure gut instinct as to where things should be routed. Again anyone spots something out of place here shout out and I will change it.
Finally decided to sort out another issue which has bugged me since day one of ownership. A previous owner had chopped down the battery clamp to suit a smaller unit. The battery I have fits perfectly in the base tray at around 180mm wide. I figure the top plate should be the same size which will then fit my battery perfectly. Its currently sitting at about 165mm in width.
Chopped up an old W108 battery tray and canibalised it for some fresh steel wide enough to fix my problem. It has an identical profile so I should get a good seamless job if I don't botch up the welding and painting.
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Finished off my battery clamp today. Quite a fiddly job to get it right. The cutting and welding went ok but took quite a while to get the 45 degree mitre joints right. Painted it up with spray can paint which almost made me vomit. Its such nasty stuff in comparison to 2k paint. Even the feel of it when its dry is somehow different. I may pull it off and blast it again. I have ran out of 2k hardener which is the only reason I didn't do it properly.
I used a rubber strip on the underside of the clamp to further isolate it from the battery which is also sitting on a rubber mat. Should help minimize vibrations which are a real killer for lead acid batteries.
I even found some thumb screw with built in rubber. Around the positive terminal I have also wrapped the battery clamp with two or three turns of thick pvc insulation tape. Protects me from my own stupidity when I forget to drop the negative terminal first and spanner slips on the positive terminal and hist the clamp. Can never be too safe!
A waiting game now for my soft top cable parts to turn up from Germany and I can get on with putting the frame back in. Will strip it on the ground and then fit the canvas with the frame in.
Also still have the issue with the fuel pump. Rebuild or buy a new one. Anyone have any thoughts.
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Stripped the soft top frame today. Have an issue with the new canvas top not having the same attachment setup as the one I took off. I appears the original was only attached to the one wooden bow by means of a series of small flat head nails. The new canvas seem to be designed to glue up to every single bow. I am wondering if I have been sold a late model 280 top???? Can anyone shed some light.
The frame itself is in excellent condition. Very lucky.
Has anyone fitted a fuel delivery pump repair kit?
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.../... the new canvas top not having the same attachment setup as the one I took off. I appears the original was.../...
Seems to me, the one you took off was not "original M-B from factory". Probably changed by some PO to a repro type (long ago), as only those tops are black on the inside.
The new canvas seem to be designed to glue up to every single bow.
So it should be
I am wondering if I have been sold a late model 280 top
There are definitely (minute but important) differences between a soft top canvas for a 230SL with the wooden bow above the rear window, and the canvas sewn to fit an all-steel soft top frame
The frame itself is in excellent condition
Great! Make sure all bolts and joints on your frame are in good order. The parts above the side window must not sag into a "V". Mount the frame on the car and adjust it thoroughly, as well as the fabric bands running lengthwise. Make sure the side windows aluminium guides are re-fitted (eliminate wobble) and then adjust frame to fit the rolled-up side windows snugly. This is done with shims etc.
Test folding/raising the frame (many times). Only after you are pleased with these steps, fit the soft top fabric onto frame.
Much to be found in the Forum and Wiki about this topic
See for instance: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20296.msg143737#msg143737 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20296.msg143737#msg143737)
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans. Took your advice and went right over the frame. Found a couple of things that definitely need attention. One bolt missing and replaced with another hex bolt and one missing altogether. Will order some new ones and fix this up.
Also had a closer look at the existing fabric that is wrapped around all the bows. I would love to know if this is factory material.
Has any one had any experience with repairing the early long type fuel delivery pumps. Specifically knowledge on if the refurbishment is capable of restoring factory pressure and volume requirements.
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Has any one had any experience with repairing the early long type fuel delivery pumps. Specifically knowledge on if the refurbishment is capable of restoring factory pressure and volume requirements.
Andy, look at http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Fuel/FuelPumpRebuildEarly Not my experience, but this seems to be a very good hint.
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Hi Jowe. Thanks for that. I have read it several times and just to sure again in the last half an hour. It seems like an excellent reference if your pump needs rebuilding if its leaking. It doesn't however discuss why a pump might loose pressure or volume and how specifically to fix these issues.
My only thoughts are that if the electric motor is not turning the impeller fast enough. I am speculating if either worn bearings may result in enough drag to cause this. Having seen the inside of my pump i cant see any other way its capacity would be diminished other than physical blockages which mine dies not have.
I need to make a well informed decision on which way to go. If it is repairable with the 107 dollar kit I will do that. But if I here from anyone in here how has had a negative experience with the rebuild then I will bit the bullet and try and source another.
My pump is currently only producing 8psi max. Factory spec call for around 13 min. Other than the low output it seems to be in nice condition.
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Hi Andy, Rodger here, it seems very strange that you drove the car some 60 miles when you first bought it with no problems. If you hadn't I would suggest metal wear on the tips of the pump impeller, the casing that they just clear of the mating surfaces on the top and bottom of the impeller. Reading the link Hans directed you to, if you haven't stripped the pump motor section I would do this and see if there is a sludge in the rotor/armature section slowing it down. testing the unit out of the car as shown in that link would also be worthwhile I think.
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Hey Rodger,
I have tested the pump out of the car. The pressure gauge setup that you helped me construct was used for that part. I tested it in and out of the car with voltages ranging from 11 up to 14 with no perceived difference in pressure which surprised me as I would have thought with the additional voltage the impeller would be spinning faster and give a higher pressure reading.
Indeed the car was running beautifully when I purchased it. I only drove it on three occasions and am wondering if I only ever started it when it was cold so just didn't notice an existing problem. Remember though when I came to recommissioned the pump a few months back it was jammed and I had to take it apart to free it. Another possibility is that I somehow damaged it.
Also as pointed out by other members there is also the possibility that my hot start issue has nothing to do with the delivery pump. Just have to methodically work my way through all possibilities.
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Andy,
make sure the pump is delivering maximum capacity. When I testdrove my 230 SL before I bought it, I noticed that there was not enough power from 3500 rev/min on. I mean, a six cilinder should really go from this point on. And it didn't. So they replaced the fuel pump. Then the car had wings to 6000 rev/min.
So don't do economics on the rebuild or replacement of the fuel pump. It would take away the pleasure of that engine.
best regards, Rudy
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Andy,
If you stripped the pump earlier is it possible you have fitted the impellor the upside down?
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Tel. Positive i didn't upset the impellor as i didnt remove it rather just freed it and cleaned.
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Hi, Andy,
Out of interest, what coil/ballast resistor combination do you have?
Id the distributor still with points?
Naj
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.../...Also had a closer look at the existing fabric that is wrapped around all the bows. I would love to know if this is factory material
IMHO, the fabric of choice to install for a Pagoda soft top is the "Sonnenland" type. See description of this in the Wiki. Inside colour cremé
Mercedes do not weave/produce their own soft top fabric, they have vendors (for the cabriolet cars being produced today).
As for our old SL types, M-B Classic buys the products they offer to customers, sewn most likely by some external vendor.
So anyway, in my view when one buys a W113 soft top, one should ensure that the vendor uses bona fide "Sonnenland" material, of the correct type. Note, there is Sonnenland fabric on sale which is indeed high quality but not at all suited for our use; instead these fit like modern cabriolets with motorized soft top mechanism etc.
On this webpage if you scroll down a bit some facts can be found:
http://www.cabrio.de/khm/en/softtop-materials (http://www.cabrio.de/khm/en/softtop-materials)
/Hans in Sweden
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Naj one of the changes was to a pertroix electronic ignition. The coil is what came with the car. I have wondered if this could be the cause but thought it unlikely as the car started so well when cold. I did however further suspect it as a possibilty as the plugs are fouling and i can also smell unburnt fuel in the exhaust quite stongly but put this down to the fact that i often start the car on the cold start.
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Hans i do beleve you are correct regarding the soft top fabric. My point was around the fabric wrapped around the hardtop bows which in my case seems all together sepatate from the soft top. I posted a close up of the fabric, which is a vinyl, to see if anyone recognized it as factory.
As if it is then its likely that early 230s did not have the soft top secured to the bows. I have found during my journey that very early 230s have quite a few very destinctive design differences that can easily trip you up when buying various incompatible parts.
Its going to be a very interesting situation if indeed i was sold an incompatible soft top canvas . Well out of warranty period now but there is absolutely no doubt i made it 100 percent clear to the vendor that it was an early 1964 230sl. I had issues with the fitment of the seat set as well. Was sent seat covers for the 280. The early 230 seats were much thinner at the top due to different seat pads. I had to had to have the seat covers picked apart and modified at great expense.
When you buy off a vendor who specialises in these cars, and you provide them with all the relevant information, there is an expectation that the correct part will arrive on your doorstep. Especially so when you live on the other side of the world where shipping costs are so expensive. I have gone into battle with vendors where the wrong stuff has clearly been sent. Usually the accept the mistake is theirs but then turn around and ask me to pay to send it back. With something as large as these parts that cost usually runs into the hundreds. My response to the vendors is 'why should I end up footing the cost for you mistake'
So it will be interesting to see what happens with the soft top canvas. Fingers crossed it can be used. I sure as hell dont need another battle on my hands. Too tired and worn down at this point.
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.../...My point was around the fabric wrapped around the hardtop bows which in my case seems all together separate from the soft top. I posted a close up of the fabric.../...
You are right, I did not quite catch your point. As I now look more closely at your pictures I understand what you are after. Sorry I have no definite answer. Could it be that the wrap around the bows was put there by the person who mounted the repro fabric "black inside" soft top(?).
I have found during my journey that very early 230s have quite a few very destinctive design differences
That is so! Seems the factory made many adjustments and changes to the initial W113 design, as need arose over time.
I sure as hell don't need another battle on my hands.
I do hope you can avoid this
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans, the soft top mystery endures. If its easy could you possibly post some close ups of the inside of your hard top showing how the top is secured to the bows. If I end up going this direction its going to be really useful to know how the fabric wings are wrapped around and trimmed up over the bows.
Today I took the various parts from the soft top frame that were rusty down and blasted them. The large soft top clamping bar was a real pain in the A. Didn't fit too well in the booth.
The two side clamping bars were in quite bad shape. Badly pitted. Must be a weak point of the car. I suppose when its been driven in the rain moisture is blown down the side of the car under the softtop canvas and under these bars. I have done a pretty thorough check and I am sure these parts are NLA. So no choice but to refurbish them. Originally they were just zinc plated. Probably totally inadequate and a bit of a mistake on the part of mercedes looking at how much they have corroded. I dont want to plate them again as the pitting will introduce lots of little pin holes for water to get into as well.
Have put a heavy coat of zinc on all of the parts and will blow some very thick coats of 2k epoxy primer on. Then will probably just paint them silver to match the original zinc plating. Should be good for another 50 years.
Also started refurbishing my spare W108 short fuel pump in case I need it. I will sell it to try and recoup some of the cost of replacing the worn unit if it isn't used.
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../... possibly post some close ups of the inside [a soft top] top showing how the top is secured to the bows. If I end up going this direction its going to be really useful to know how the fabric wings are wrapped around and trimmed up over the bows
I have these pictures which I hope I may borrow and show for your benefit (very likely they originate in this Forum)
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Andy,
I began rebuilding my fuel pump and though its not finished yet I'm glad I did. You can see from the attached photo that the inside of the electrical part of the pump was full of carbon from the brushes wearing down over 40 years of driving. Also the bearings did not run smoothly. I think both would contribute to a slower moving pump. I can't prove it yet but I would think its going to speed it up....
I bought a repair kit from George Des from this forum for around $45 usd which contained the new brushes and bearings....I think its worth doing...the carbon you see is a handful, I couldn't believe it ! And it still ran !
http://getsmartpagoda.tumblr.com/
Rgds, Joe
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Thanks joe. Tried to get hold of George but his box is full. Anyone have alternative contact details.
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Any board member can forward your request to their e-mail address…
Peter
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Any board members up to helping out here.
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Andy,
send me a PM and I will on forward it to George.
Garry
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Spent yesterday on all sorts of bits and pieces. I went to a company that just sell orings and seals. Took my short W108 latter style pump with me in pieces and spent a good hour with the guys finding replacement seals. Learn t a ton about seal technology and all the different types of material used. Definitely not all seals are created equal.
Walked away with enough bits and pieces to put the W108 pump back together. I raided it for parts to get my W113 pump functional. Gave the internals a huge birthday. Cleaned out the filters and all the internal galleries and linished off the two ali surfaces the spinning impeller run on with 3000 grit paper. Slammed it all back together and tested it. Didn't have much hope as I had previously tried to test this pump and couldn't get anything from it.
I did discover to get them going that I had to prime it which I had previously not done. I had read that they are self priming but looking at the internals and how they worked started doubting this. It didn't take much, just tipped 250ml down the inlet and off it went. Once there is fluid in the internal chamber then it possible for the pump to start chewing on something and generate a bit of a head/vacumn to be able to suck more fluid in.
I don't have a pressure gauge but just based on my memory its pushing heaps more pressure than my original pump. I will wait to get hold of the gauge to confirm.
But in the mean time can someone tell me whats involved in mounting the latter short pump in an early 230sl. I would love to keep everything looking original including the square pump cover. I have the original legs that the pump bolted to. They bolted up to the floor pan of the W108. Obviously the holes wont be the same so what are my options here.
I think I will use this pump to confirm if the hot start issue is related. If it is then I will eventually put the correct refurbished pump back in but may leave this in place as a stop gap measure.
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Fitted up my new hatch cable kit that I ordered from one of our members Mehmet who manufactures quite a few bits and pieces for the 113. The kit has a new cable inner and the slider attachment which is traditionally pressed or crimped onto the end of the factory cable. This particular part means its near on impossible to fix the original if it breaks. A new cable is a couple of hundred and the kit from Mehmet is only 30 Euro delivered. The slider attachment piece is beautifully machined and is held on the cable with two small grub screws. So if the cable breaks again it can just be slid out and replaced.
Once I had the hatch nicely adjusted I moved on to my hub caps. Finished the masking and have now blown the etch primer. Will get onto the top coat in the next couple of days.
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Hi,Andy,
To use the short pump, you would need to add a three legged bracket (#92 in pic) and three studded mounting rubbers (shown with #92) available from MB.
To use the dirt shield, you would have to butcher it.
Pictures later.
I believe these pumps are not self priming, and the inlet needs to be at or below the level of the outlet of the fuel tank. The legs as Naj reports provide that extra spacing, yes?"
Yes, the pump inlet has to be lower than the tank outlet
JonnyB:
Naj
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I believe these pumps are not self priming, and the inlet needs to be at or below the level of the outlet of the fuel tank. The legs as Naj reports provide that extra spacing, yes?
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Thanks Jonny and Naj. Really really want to keep everything original or for it to be able to be reverted back to original. So if I run with the short pump for a while I will just leave the mud cover off. Probably just jerry rig up some sort of temporary bracket.
I was reading another post last night that JA commented that the clamped off pressure of the pump should be closer to 30-40psi and that with it free flowing back into the tank it should be 14-18psi. My existing pump is 8psi clamped at the pump which doesn't bode too well with me at the moment. I will measure off the clamped pressure of the short pump early next week and report back.
Things with the engine have got quite depressing at this end. Its a lovely day so I decided to see if I could get the thing running and go for another short trip just up our road. I threw a brand new set of plugs in the car a few weeks back and initially they worked very well with a quick start up and smooth running engine.
The longer I have run the car the worse the engine now runs till this morning it sounds as if its only firing on 4.
I have wondered if the fouling plugs have been to do with a faulty coil. I checked the spark a while back and it looked ok. I am however no mechanical expert and the engine side is probably my worst suit.
The car to me smells overly fueled when just started. A very strong smell of unburnt fuel out the back. I dont know if this is normal on the cold start circuit. This 'feature' has been persistent since I have brought her back into life. I didn't have enough time before taking it off the road to establish these traits. I know my 280se didn't smell like this at any point.
So I have for a while also suspected that I have some sort of detonation issue. The coil that came with the car is a very new looking Bosch unit but it never sat nicely in the factory cradle so I decided to use a bit of insulation tape around the coil to generate a bit more interference. Two things here that have worried me 1) the coil may not be correct for the car 2) my insulation tape may be preventing some sort of earth that the coil requires to function correctly. Point 2 I think is drawing a very long bow as most coils are painted which would provide the same type of electrical insulation.
Anyway this morning I decided to start off my elimination process by replacing the coil with a know working bosch out of a 280se I wrecked.
Same result. The car is still running like a dog with no change what soever.
This afternoon I whipped the plug to see where we were at. Brand new with probably no more than 30 minutes of run time. They are fouled badly and half of them were quite wet.
I am interested in your guys thoughts. Perhaps this is to be expected given I have been running the car for 5 to 10 starts on only the cold start circuit. I don't know. I did have the car running nicely the outer day and up to temp and it was still getting worse.
Am wondering if my hot start issue is related to the fouling? Just have this niggling feeling that all my engine issues are related to a lack of detonation rather than the fuel problem.
Just about to go and clean the plugs and see if I can get the engine up to temp and do the split linkage test.
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SOS
A very sick feeling has just come over me this evening. I cleaned my plugs and right away the car fired up cleanly and idled. Obviously just a huge over fueling issue.
Took it for a drive and this time it was spluttering no more than 100m down the road limped home and immediately turned it off. Hadn't even got to operating temp. Wouldn't turn back on.
Went inside and thought a bit more about the problem and obvious over fueling issue. Went back out and looked at the engine for some time.
When I put the pump back in I didn't think much about it as I didn't really do anything to it. Including the oil reservoir at the back of the pump. Assumed the old oil was still in there. I certainly didn't drain it deliberately. As I was refitting the pump I wondered about it and decided to put a bit more oil in for good measure just in case some had spilled or it was a bit empty to begin with. There is absolutely no way to tell how much oil is in here other than put a screw driver in to check for existence.
I did this tonight and the screw driver came up totally dry. If somehow I have fried my pump I am done for quite some time with this project. Tears will be shed.
Can someone tell me how you know if this pump has sufficient oil. Should it be filled right to the top??
Sick feeling!
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Andy,
have you checked the oil level using the dipstick??
(http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21295.0;attach=31822;image)
....
I was reading another post last night that JA commented that the clamped off pressure of the pump should be closer to 30-40psi and that with it free flowing back into the tank it should be 14-18psi. My existing pump is 8psi clamped at the pump which doesn't bode too well with me at the moment. I will measure off the clamped pressure of the short pump early next week and report back.....
Andy,
here are the specs for the feed pressure of the old style (long) fuel pump:
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Alfred you are a legend. I had no idea that was a dip stick!!!! I used to have a friend who owned a 230sl and the dip stick was attached to the red cap. It was a latter car so perhaps it had a different new version pump.
In any event thank you sooooooo much. I can go to bed with a clear head tonight. I am having issues with sleep as it is so I owe you!
I quickly popped my newly found dipstick (wife chuckling in background) and have discovered my oil level looks to high. The oil is crystal clear by the looks. The previous owner told me he had it rebuilt only 2k miles ago at a cost of 4000 so the prospect of frying it to me at the moment is mind blowing with my current situation.
Any implications for having to much oil in the FIP???
Still a mystery to why the thing is over fueling so much. Another potential sign is that I cant here the inrush of air through the small WRD filter. My memory off it before I took the car apart, when it was running so well, was that even over the engine noise I could clearly clearly here the inrush.
Perhaps the valve is stuck and I am getting more fuel but no air?
Should this be my next port of call and where do I start with this one. Do you have to pull the whole WRD off to check?
Alfred thanks also for the pump stats. They basically tee up with what I thought. I should have 11.37 psi min. I only took pressure measurements out of the car on the bench and the most I got was around 8psi with the output plugged so I am below the min spec. I always new that but have had a couple of member in here report that they have similar pressure readings with no issue at all.
Also my current problem seems to gross over fueling which is in contradiction to the not having enough fuel so I guess I have to chase this problem first. If this logic is flawed please feel free to step in and knock me over the head with a large plank of wood.
Going to take a larazapam and try and get a good night sleep.
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Hi Andy,
Re Bosch Pump Oil Level,
I found it very fiddly to check the level with the screw top/dipstick,
so made an easier dipstick with a cable tie for level checking.
Good luck,
and I enjoy your regular project updates.
Paul
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If you over filled the pump, you should get it back to the right level.
Sometimes too high a level means gas is making its way to the oil in the pump and the level goes up. try to smell the oil on the dipstick, or see if it is diluted.
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To make sure the oil level is correct, pump out & measure the amount. It should not exceed 250ml. I use a "Mitty Vac" for this. There are several other home made devices to pump it out. Do search on this forum.
Regards, Paul
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Your right to worry about an over rich fuel mixture.
We can all remember back in the 1960s/70s the average life cycle of any engine ( mercedes no exception ) was about five to seven years. After 60,000 to 80,000 miles of everyday driving, most engines would develop an oil consumption problem and begin to experience loss of compression , blow by , oil dilution ,and consequently lower oil pressure.
Cylinder wash down had a lot to do with this ,an over rich fuel mixture washes the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls ,destroys the honing and generally wears the cylinders out.
Get the mixture right at all costs.
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Thank you all. I have spent the morning swapping out my fuel pump for the W108 version to see if it would make a difference. It didn't. The over fuel issue is still present and seems to be getting worse. Now the car is difficult to start even cold.
Regrettably I have decided to call it quits on the car for the time being. I fear my tinkering has made things worse to the point I may have damaged the engine and feel it best that I just take my hands off it and park it up until my circumstances change and I have the money to pay someone who is capable of diagnosing the problem and putting it right.
I may do a few more bits and pieces on the soft top just to get the frame back in the car given how I feel about it right about now it may just get pushed into the corner.
*broken*
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Andy,
sorry to hear about the ongoing troubles. I too had terrible over rich mixture when getting my car back on the road after a prolonged period inactive before I brought it as a rebuild project . Badly fouled plugs almost instantly, fuel in the oil, black smoke / soot out exhaust etc. As others have experienced it was a stuck rack in the fuel injection pump which once free made all the difference and the car ran perfectly after the usual tuning steps. I know you mentioned the rack as a possible cause previously but haven't seen a reply so thought I'd share my experience just in case you haven't checked it.
good luck and keep at it.
regards
Greg
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Hi Andy
On the basis of your 108 experience, I'd hardly call you a 'rank amateur' and what you are doing with the 230SL is a well worthwhile exercise. Future generations will benefit from your efforts. Your 230SL looks very similar in colour to my January '68 Tunis Beige Metallic 280SL, right down to the wheels. What colour code is your car? I think mine is 462. As to your question about just driving the car, you may have been a little hasty. I once had a pretty rough burgundy '65 230SL I drove for years before spending any money on it - I never got around to re-conditioning the engine and, with some 300,000 miles on the clock it was smokey, but still strong, when I parted with it. My 280 SL has been well looked after since a late 80's spruce up, so I do the bare minimum and just enjoy driving it. I will be in Omaka over Easter for the classic airshow, but won't make it as far north as Auckland on this trip. Next time I travel to Auckland, however, I will make a point of checking out your restoration in person, if that's ok with you.
Regards
Philip French
Sydney
Tunis Beige '67 280SL
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Hey Andy! Any updates?
Have you seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmkiBz65Wjs
leaking injectors may be your problem. They can be cleaned and sorted.
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Andy, I posted a video on here some while back demonstrating how to check for a blocked air filter on the WRD. I find it too difficult to paste links from my iPad so will have to rely on you or someone else finding it.
You should also disconnect the pipe from your cold start injector and plug it to see if that stops your over-fuelling.
If that valve is leaking then you will get over fuelling and fuel contamination of the engine oil is also possible.
Check the oil in the engine and the pump for fuel smell and low viscosity.
A quick way to confirm that you are over fuelling is to disconnect the throttle linkage at the top ball joint of the fuel pump linkage rod and slowly then try to open the throttle with the engine running. If the engine runs faster you have proved (by leaning off the mixture) that you have over-fuelling.
A failed barometric compensator can also cause over-fuelling and you can use a similar crude method of adjusting that by hand to see if there's any improvement.
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Hi Andy
If you are pulling bits off old 108's, I suggest that the best bit of all is the dealer fitted aircon unit that was so popular in the late 60's. The unit fits nicely under the 113 dash and accommodates modern Japanese components, making your Pagoda a truly modern car for daily driving purposes.
Regards
PHilip
1968 280SL Tunis Beige Metalliv
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Hi Andy,,
Here is the post and video Colin is talking about ... ---> http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15630.msg107442#msg107442
EDIT Colin read Glen ... my bad. ... Sorry Colin
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Everything is easy if you know how
Thank you everyone for your input. I have taken it all on board and carefully go over every single suggestion.
Life is a **** sometimes. I have deliberately spent a whole week away from the car to cool down. I decided to finish off my anpr automation project. I have a dedicated camera down our drive specifically tuned to see car plates. For the past four years I have been gradually writing the software to pull the plates off the live video feed and compare it with a live police feed of stolen license plates and then email and text me if anything of interest was seen. This week I decided to enhance the system to open my gates if it saw a trusted plate. It was to be a pleasant distraction to car problems that were out of my pay scale. Isn't it always a relief to work on stuff your familiar with?
In my 'week off' I had slaved like a dog and got everything up and running and tested. Friday night just as I was going to push everything off to my production servers my development server tipped over with a hard disk crash in a very specular way. In my hast to get everything out I hadn't backed anything up. Didn't think life could possibly be that cruel. I have been trying fruitlessly for the past two day to try and recover my weeks worth of work.
Ironically I used the project to get away from my troubles with my car. This afternoon I found myself going back to the car to get away from the software.
Tested the pressure of the new pump. 12 psi at the pump which is better than my old one at 8psi. Will take that slight improvement. Still not factory minimum figures but much closer to it.
Then tested the pressure at the csv valve. Only got around 8psi here. Decided that the pressure differential may have been due to a clogged fuel line. I am now questioning absolutely everything and everything was taken off the car and refurbished. Its more than likely that my refurbishment of one of these parts hasn't been too beneficial.
Decided to wip the fuel filter and check for shrapnel. Waste of time as everything seemed clean as a whistle. A bit of slight debris at the bottom of the bowl but nothing more than you would expect.
Back to the drawing board.
Stick I have tried removing the filter on the WRD to no effect. Also blown through the filter a few weeks back and it seems as if there are absolutely no restriction. Thanks for that tip though.
GGR I think your suggestion of blocked injectors is more likely or a rack issue. The video was really a head turner. I have seen that guys previous videos. I really like his style and he obviously knows his stuff and loves the cars to bits. I just dont have the money at the moment to even pay for the testing and dont have the equipment to do it myself so am a bit stuck. If it isn't a rack issue it will be an injector issue. I had my pump apart to plate up all the bits and pieces and worked on the rack. I cleaned it meticulously and even before I started it had a silky smooth action. The only way it could have become 'sticky' in my mind is if some grit or crap has been sucked through the system subsequent to everything being plated up.
Another more likely problem is that the injector lines, which I had so much trouble with and replaced, have had internal scale or rust disrupted and may have made its way into the injectors. In the absence of professional advice I am left making such grandiose diagnosis. I want to make sure that you guys understand this and hit me over the head with a cricket bat if my logic is flawed. My lack of knowledge in this area is what is really getting me down.
Again I am back to rock bottom with no ideas of how I can proceed without putting my hand in my wallet. Parking the project is the most obvious short term solution. Perhaps I will start again with the software this week.
PIP1947 at the moment I certainly feel like a rank amateur.
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I like the trusted number plate recognition idea. At our property I am looking at adding automated gates but the gates are a long way from the house and thus are to be solar powered. The only way someone without a remote could get them to open would be to ring us to ask for entry. it is too far for wireless intercom unless i do a big upgrade.
Garry
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Hey Rolf, who is this Glen guy stealing my ideas? ;D
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Hi Andy,
Sorry to hear of your problems - and my apologies if I suggest something you have already thought of but,
Have you re-checked all the primary fuel system from Tank to Engine bay , Tank Filters Lines Pump ect for the correct Flow rates and pressure ?
This only takes time, no cost.
Very Impressed with your ANPR
Good luck and keep well
Paul
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Sorry Colin, I keep doing this (have done this before LOL to you as I recall), sometimes my fingers on this small Apple keyboard have a mind of there own :) I will have to watch this in future ;D
Hey Rolf, who is this Glen guy stealing my ideas? ;D
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Andy,
as a software guy myself I can commiserate with your bad luck on the ANPR project and the server. It's why I like github so much…
Peter
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Another software guy here. Been there too.
I agree about GitHub. I also often do my work in a DropBox folder, which automatically keeps backups of stuff.
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I'm glad I only have to figure out my own problems that don't include computors
On my best days, it's just within my desire to keep going in the frozen hell of SW Ontario this winter.
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Dan, I think that a life working me with computer has given me the patience needed to deal with 113's.... well to a point. At the moment I am undecided which one is more of a pain in the ass. Cant say I know what an Ontario winter is like but if it is so cold that it somehow numbs your mind when you encounter a few of these 'tricky' challenges then all the better. All I have is lorazapam.
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Have been taking a bit of a break again while I sort my ongoing back saga out. In my downtime I have had lots of time to think about and plan my next move on the path to getting the engine back in working order.
I have been watching heaps of the you tube video that Kent Bergsma has put out including everything he has done on fuel injection. Really feel much better prepared to tackle the issue I currently have with the bad over fueling issue.
In particular I have been very suspicious of the injectors. In two of Kents videos he talks about over fueling being a notorious issue on 'old' Mercedes and suggested that a good proportion, if not majority, of these problems can be put down to dirty injectors that are not atomizing, leaking at low pressure or both. His video, which I have a link to below, is quite compelling. If you haven't watched it I highly recommend you have a gander along with all his other gems.
In his videos he describes how he can test and clean the majority of faulty injectors at home with a simple hydraulic pump setup. He sells the kit for around 150US. To me that represents about the sum it would cost here in New Zealand to get the job done professionally. However as he pointed out if an injector is simply worn out no amount of cleaning will fix it and you may end up tipping your money into a black hole. At least with the pump you know what part of the ball park your in before you send them out for professional attention.
Fortune has smiled on me this week and while browsing a local ebay type site here in NZ I came across an almost identical unit for only 30USD. I decided to go for it and picked it up this afternoon. It came with all the fitting to mate up directly to the MB injectors which was another relief.
Screwed up the first one and already I think I have identified the issue. The injector seems to release a squirt of fuel without the gauge even registering. It would seem its stuck open. These should take around 250psi to even begin to open and should hold pressure indefinitely at just under this pressure. Take a look at the video for a demonstration of this.
I dont yet know if the rest will have the same issue or if they will be recoverable. I first need a gauge with a much lower pressure range. This unit was designed for diesel injectors which operate at thousands of psi. Kent uses a gauge with a full scale deflection of 600psi. I could get a 300psi gauge but you would end up risking blowing its brains out during the cleaning phase where you swap diesel for carb cleaner and pump the hell out of the unit to pulse the cleaner through the injector. So am on the hunt for a very cheap gauge now.
If your interested in the videos.
1) How to clean the fuel injectors using the pressure tester. http://youtu.be/Fb3fHKiVF4o
2) Testing of the W109 6.3 injectors http://youtu.be/za-5sW2QOIo
This one is interesting about the rescue of the red 113 they called Lucky. Of interest is that they got it so cheap because it had a burnt out wiring loom caused by those dodgy failing insulation of the wires around the alternator and the starter motor that I was talking to you about the other day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM55ZalsAcI
The same unit that I purchased second hand can be landed for about 120 US http://www.aliexpress.com/item/PS400A-Diesel-Fuel-Injector-Nozzle-Tester/32274075667.html or you can just buy one off Kent for 170 which comes with a video instruction CD.
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Andy,
Take a look at Pagoda Notes Issue 1 Volume 1. There is a picture of the famous Blacklick injector tester on the front page, lower right. I am trying to find the original picture, but that will give you an idea of how Joe Alexander approached the issue.
I have not found the original, but attached is the one I used for the issue of P Notes.
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Jonny,
He has a wonderful mind that JA. I tossed around similar thoughts a while ago. Perhaps rigging up one of my spare 108 pumps to a single phase motor. But then you would have to supply it with fuel and soon you would be into replicating the fuel delivery pump and the filter as well. I left it well alone after working through the logistic. JA has obviously got a million times the mechanical ability that I do. I loved the crank handle. Sometimes the best things are the simplest.
In the 'W109 6.3 Beast' video Kent eludes to a up coming project where he has rigged up a fuel pump to allow him to push carb cleaner through it to give it a thorough cleaning as well. I think its due out very soon so will be interesting to see how he has done it.
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Yes Joe does do some pretty cool things. I have only watched a couple of the videos, but he is cautious about spraying the fuel, a very wise idea!
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He has a wonderful mind that JA.
He does! Along with an admirable equanimity, generosity and restraint.
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Andy
I'm keen to know how the pop tester works out.
I too watched Kent's video with amazement at those gummed up injector nozzles.
I really hope it's the answer in part to a smooth running motor for you.
The same testers sell in the UK for £89 and a 600psi glycerine filled gauge can be had for £7 up over .
I was set to jerry rig one up myself until I saw you could actually buy them new.
Good look with your project , your almost finished.
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10 points for effort.
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Back to the basics. Compression test with all plugs out and only starter motor assistance today showed all cylinders firing around 115psi. Seems a bit low. Anyone know if I am in a bit of trouble with these figures.
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My '63 230sl - no.1 cylinder 145 all others 150. Runs great, no oil consumption.
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Did you measure it with the starter only.
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Yes, did each cylinder with each spark plug out. Then replaced plug & moved to the next one.
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Thank paul looks as if i am in the **** then. Perhaps prolonged rich running has stuffed my rings ir glazed the bores. Just what i need.
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Andy can you view the cylinders with a bore scope throug the spark plug hole to see if there is much carbon build up? When I first started mine the no. 5 cylinder totally misfired. The PO had installed the rebuilt FI pump not at the required 20 degrees. Anyway that caused much carbon build up in all cylinders. It took me months to figure out that the FI pump was installed wrong. This was after I had done the linkage test, electrical etc. The cylinders now look much cleaner after approx. 500 miles using aviation fuel. Of course I also thought the valves were bad, but thank goodness they are ok. I really, as well as, many others enjoy your posts. Good luck my man!!
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Hi Andy,
Seems strange that you have these problems , on all cylinders, if it was all running ok before your overhaul started.
Before panic , check the compression tester out on another car to make sure it is functioning correctly.
Good luck
Paul
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Hope
This morning I got up and purchased a fresh set of plug. This time I went with slightly hotter NGK BP5ES units. I have read a number of you guys use these instead of the BP6ES plugs. Thought the hotter plug might work in my favor with the over fueling issue.
Put the plugs in and this time decided to set up my old Vane Combustion Analyser. Its out of the arc but still quite effective. Just takes a while after the car start to get an accurate reading.
The car fired on the first click and ran absolutely beautifully. Very very very smooth and hard to believe that I had any sort of issue whatsoever.
To my surprise even when the car was on the cold start cycle with the WRD sucking it little head off at 800 RPM the CO% levels were right down at about 6-6.5 which I believe is perfectly normal. Hopefully this test excludes any issues with the pump. Or could I still be getting normal reading even with the pump to crank timing being out?
I listened very carefully to the WRD air filter (Removed) and audibly heard the sucking reducing right do to almost nothing at normal operating temp. There was still a very very slight movement of air through it which when I blocked with my fingers didn't change the engine note at all. Probably should shut off 100% but at this point I dont think this would be a huge issue. Let me know if I am wrong with that assumption.
The car was going so well I decided to seize the opportunity and take it for a quick run up the road. It went well for the first 1k lap and then stalled while I was turning in a drive. Same problem back again. I managed to push start it. It started ok doing this which might be a clue. Back in the garage after I turned the car off it wouldn't start again.
Pulled one of the plugs and the same dry fouling. Not as much as before and the electrode was brown rather than black. All the fouling was confined to the outer perimeter of the plug and the center ceramic below the electrode.
I decided to check the operation of the plug visibly with it attached to the lead and propped up on the top of the rocker cover touching the linkage for a good earth. The spark seemed quite erratic to me and no where near as 'plump' as I would like so I may be onto something.
I have replaced the points with a pertronix electronic ignition so I have to be suspecting this. Also the lead ends have all been replaced but have metered all of these to exactly 2k each. The leads themselves could also be suspect. I am sure they are what came with the car but feel quite floppy like a silicon lead. I am wondering if these shouldn't be here at all and somehow when heating up are changing resistance. I suppose the electronics in the pertronix could be doing something similar as well, ie heating up and becoming erratic.
The only other possibility is the coil and ballast resistor. I have swapped out the coil twice and the problem remained so think this is unlikely. The ballist resistor has a crack in it but still measures up at 1.2 ohms and is supplying the coil 7.5v when the ignition is on and 9.5v when the start motor is engaged.
Still a bit of mystery to why the plugs are fouling. I really cant afford to keep on buying sets of plugs to diagnose so would dearly love to narrow down this problem now before I screw another set.
If any of you guys have and good ideas about what to do next I would love to here.
Any ideas how I can eaisly either eliminate or pinpoint the electronic ignition module.
Feeling a bit better about it all.
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Have also discovered this afternoon that when the engine is warm both the CSV cold start solenoid and the large Fuel Injection Pump cold start solenoid both have power on them for the entire duration the starter motor is turning. I thought I had read somewhere that these two were controlled by the thermo timer switch and that for an early 230sl the maximum that both these should be engergised for is one second during cranking. Perhaps this is my overfueling and hot starting issue in one. Cranking it more just makes the problem worse?
Anyone got experience with this. I am picking I may have rewired something incorrectly perhaps. I will wait until the car cools down and try it while it is cold. I think I have done this before and seen the one second pulse. Perhaps I have a crook thermo switch or is it possible to get the terminal on backward or something similar.
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It looks like a winner!!!!! Disconnected the block on the timer relay and the car started up instantly. Guess it must have just got jammed open during all the initial load of the engine being cranked. Will pull it all apart and see if I can confirm its the cause and then make some sort of attempt to fix it.
I am still interested to know if in conjunction with the thermo timer switch in the block if the one second pulse is suppose to be reduced to nothing when the car is up to temp. Is the thermo timer switch not really a timer at all and it just provides the relay with a signal if the temp of the block is above a certain level.
Will go out and play some more.
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You may have found your problem. Otherwise, while looking both at ignition and fuel issues, the rule is first to sort out the ignition as you may otherwise be messing a perfectly working fuel system when the fault is with the ignition. So make sure your ignition works as it should first. On these cars there is a bypass which is connecting the ignition directly to the battery while cranking. Make sure this is connected properly as otherwise your ignition will be weaker while cranking.
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Have also discovered this afternoon that when the engine is warm both the CSV cold start solenoid and the large Fuel Injection Pump cold start solenoid both have power on them for the entire duration the starter motor is turning. I thought I had read somewhere that these two were controlled by the thermo timer switch and that for an early 230sl the maximum that both these should be engergised for is one second during cranking. .....
In the tech manual under "starting aids" there is a table put together by JA17 that indicates that on earl 230SL (versionII) the intakes starting solenoid is open during the entire starting period via thermo switch and relay II. The solenoid on the IP is open for only 1 sec.
Back to the basics. Compression test with all plugs out and only starter motor assistance today showed all cylinders firing around 115psi. Seems a bit low. Anyone know if I am in a bit of trouble with these figures.
Did you remove the fuse to shut of the pump? Otherwise fuel will be injected and by the time to reach the later cylinders they are all wet and and that has influence on your readings.
But since all 6 are even I would not worry too much.Probably a gauge accuracy problem
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People I have definitely found the issue. The car is running perfectly and I have taken it on it maiden 'proper' drive. I have popped her cherry so to speak ;)
The way it drives now is just so different. Over the moon. Thanks to all of those who have helped me with the engine issue to date.
Off to take the wife for a quick drive.
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Congratulations Andy
I am one of the MANY who regularly read and enjoy your postings and have been on your 'journey' with you. I have had nothing to contribute as I never restored my car, but rather opted for an original car and have only had to do regular maintenance and some cosmetic stuff.
Once again congrats and enjoy... :) :)
Richard
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Well done!
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Hi Andy, great that the car is going and you have found the solution yourself, give yourself a gentle pat on the back in view of your back problem. Really really pleased for you.
cheers
Rodger K
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Thanks guys. Took the family out for dinner to celebrate. Its been a long time since we treated ourselves.
I have already pulled the time relay apart and confirmed the heating element windings have burnt out. Probably due to the extended time spent cranking when the car first fired up.
In any event I think I will replace the internal with some modern equipment that isn't so fragile. Keep everything the same looking from the outside. Am thinking of using a one shot 555 timing chip powering a solid state relay. Also adding in a little trim pot to alter the fuel shot duration and also drill a hole in the casing for a mini led that will illuminate to give a visible indication of the pulse and make sure I never never never make the same mistake twice.
I am still interested in knowing exactly how the thermoswitch in the block works. I am picking it was just providing the heating element on the relay with 12v when the temp was below a predetermined warm up value. Over the value the relay will never be activated.
Tomorrow I am going to pull the thermoswitch and bench test it.
Sleep will come easy tonight! Cant remember the last time I felt this relaxed. Probably the day before I purchased the car.
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Great news Andy!
Congrats and happy motoring!
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Andy,
Now that she's popped, be careful of others who'll want to drive her.
Congratulations on a job well done, and years of entertainment for us all.
Mike
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Well done Andy!
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Congratulations and well done Andy,
Friday 13th is not always a bad omen.
Paul
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Andy,
Check on Pagoda Notes, Vol 2 Nos 2 and 3 for a detailed discussion about the thermo time switch.
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Nice work Andy, impressive stuff!
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Thanks everyone for your kind words. I have had the weekend off the car after a very intense week trying to sort that engine issue out. The problem and the solution were both very very simple but as they say everything is easy if you know how. Its so damned obvious now I have kicked myself a few times.
Moving forward yesterday I decided to check my stash of old wiring looms for a second hand timer relay as I had remembered I had wrecked a couple of injected W108's. I was not expecting to find anything as they didn't start making 108's until 67 and the early 230's had an all together different unit that the latter 113 so the production timing I thought would have been working against me. The newer units are 4 pin rather than 3 pins from the earlier units.
To my surprise the first loom I hit had an identical relay. I had marked the loom as an early 250se. Still a big surprise but I was happy to take the win.
Pulled it apart taking careful note of the metal case which did not appear to have any tamper marks. The faulty one I took out of my car had obvious signs in comparison. I tested up perfectly with a nice one second delay. I started comparing it with the faulty one and discovered that the arms on the faulty unit had an obvious bend in them which was preventing the bi metallic strip from opening as early. The previous mechanic had probably not taken the time to look at the adjustment screw about 8mm from the site and gone ahead and made the 'necessary' modifications.
Initially I thought this unit was buggered but after I straightened the arms out the unit operated as expected. I cant explain this as a month ago I tested the system end to end and posted a short video of the csv being energized for about one second. I can now only assume that it was a cold start and I let go of the key the moment it fired which just gave the impression of a one second pulse. Probably the issue has always been present. I never drove the car long enough to take not. Another mistake.
I played around with both of the units for quite some time and got them both running identically. Cleaned up the contact points and double checked. I thought about butchering one of them for a modern electronic equivalent but decided to keep everything old school. I have done this with practically everything else so I may as well not stop.
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Spent all yesterday redoing my hub caps. I cant remember if I blogged about it but the first attempt was a disaster after I used the wrong paint type and also a new gun that I was unfamiliar with. Started from scratch again yesterday and very carefully sanded back the stuff up. 400 grit and then fine scotch. Had to redo some of the masking. Was a bit of a gamble and was not sure if the old masking may have moved or not. Not to worry though as I pulled off the masking tape everything looked as it should with nice crisp edges. A few tiny defects which you could only see if you look at them from a foot away. So a quick polish and on they went. Another thing ticked off. The car is looking complete...ish
I am now debating on if I am going to completely strip the hard top to repaint it. The head lining, wood and internal chrome are all quite beautiful. The only thing that needs a bit of work on the inside is the small rear shelf where the factory mbtex has discolored. I am wondering if I am better off just stripping the external chrome and moldings, paint stripping and painting just the outside. The previous owner has painted the top twice now on top of the original factory color. So its just dripping with layer upon layer of paint that all needs to go.
Today will be working on getting the soft top frame back in the car. When this is done I can set it up and get the side window level adjusted correctly and then get the door cards back on. At this point I have decided to get the car back on the road with registration and a warrant of fitness. To late for the last of the summer drives but I am hoping for a few crisp autumn days.
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Went to work on the soft top frame again today. Decided a few weeks that the old MB Tex covering was just too far gone. Previous owner tried to cover up stains with a nice coat of rattle can material paint. Nice.
Managed to source some material that was very close to the texture of what came off and a color which is almost identical to the headlining of the hardtop. Glued it all up and will trim it back tomorrow when the glue is completely set. Was quite tricky to get it to stretch around all the acute corner and into the hollows. Used the heat gun and worked from the center out to the edges one at a time.
I have also painted up all the clamping plates that are used to secure the soft top material to the frame. All that I need to do now is go through all the screws and source new stainless steel replacement.
Will be quite exciting to get a roof over the old girl but am still a bit nervous about the fitting of the top to the frame. I don't have the constitution to enjoy work I have never done before. Love the comfort zone.
Sorry about the quality of my recent photography. My main 18-55mm lens crapped out a few weeks back and I am now shooting with a 50mm portrait lens which makes closeups very difficult.
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Went in this morning to have another set of MRI's and X Rays and bumped into my spinal surgeon at the hospital. He had turned up to perform an operation on one of his patients in the most splendid car one could imagine a spinal surgeon to drive. A stunning old W109 300sel 6.3 in white. We get on well :P
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Wow! Ask him if he is on the M-100 Group forum and if so what is his pseudo there.
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Will ask him GGR, but I doubt the guy has any spare time given how super busy he always seems. He seems to work seven days.
Came home from my scans and made a start on the soft top. Managed to get my frame back in the car with no damage which is a real bonus. Very awkward shape.
Did an initial fit up of the top. It looks beautiful but once again I have a horrible sick feeling that I have been sold one for a 250/280 where the frame is all steel. The central bow in mine is wood and much thicker than the equivalent steel version in the latter cars. The tails sewn into the hood are suppose to be glued around the bows. All bar the wood one are good as gold with plenty of material. The one for the wood comes up short and aren't even long enough to touch one another. Have no idea what the solution is here. Probably have to unpick the original and sew a new one in. Not what your after when you have spent almost 1000US. I deliberately took the option of buying the most expensive soft top cover so I wouldn't hit this kind of issue.
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Another potential issue is that the early 230s appeared to make use of the thin wire, threaded through the soft top fabric, between the A and B pillar. Looks as if they were used to keep the tension on the top so it wouldn't flap and the glass to soft top junction.
The new top doesn't have the channel sewed into it and has shipped with two lengths of rubber which are glued along the same line. Again I am wondering if I have been sold the wrong top or if the standard replacement for the early 230 version and you simply throw away the wire and run with the rubber strip. Who knows. It would have been very very nice if the top came with a quick one page instruction guide. Even if you handed this over to a professional this sort of stuff could get very confusing and easily get installed incorrectly if you dont know all the subtle differences (which your average trim ship guy wouldn't).
Another potential issue I have also been eyeballing is the thin chrome strip which nails from the outside, through the soft top and into the wood bow. Perhaps I simply cut off the tail and rely just on the nailed trim to hold the top. Or perhaps I should discard the outer trim as putting nails through an otherwise water tight top may not be a wise idea. I have heard that the external chrome trim can scratch up the rear clear plastic when things are all folded down. Would love some advice.
Also not sure if I have made the right choice of color for the new vinyl I have glued to the the soft top frame. It seems a bit arkward between the black leather on the top of the screen and the tan color of the top lining. I am interested in what your car has. Anyone know what the factory did here. I may end up pulling the entire frame out and starting again with this. Big waste of time and money but I really want to get it right.
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Andy,
Have another careful look at your soft top, you will find there is the facility for the wire to slide through, you may have to make your own slit at the forward end to accommodate the wire, the channel will be there, you also fit the rubber sealer in conjunction with the wire.
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.../... thin wire, threaded through the soft top fabric, between the A and B pillar. Looks as if they were used to keep the tension on the top so it wouldn't flap and the glass to soft top junction
That is exactly so. Essential for a comfortable ride w/o wind noise or flapping.
The thick rubber strip is glued to the soft top fabric. Both wire and rubber are there for a purpose, like Eric writes, and were there on each Pagoda car from factory.
very nice if the top came with a quick one page instruction guide
There are instructions with step-by-step pictures offered out there. For instance:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-DB-W113-Pagode-Cabrio-Verdeck-Einbau-Anleitung-/360247157679 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-DB-W113-Pagode-Cabrio-Verdeck-Einbau-Anleitung-/360247157679)
../.. vinyl I have glued to the the soft top [front] frame
yes, there were (are) specifications for these various areas of the interior of the Pagoda. A small number of light vinyl shades were available at the time, and this was not a choice for the buyer. It was determined by the colour code for the interior. What is your code?
/Hans in Sweden
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Cheers Tel. I am still getting quite worried about it as I research further. SLS list early and late soft tops. The early ones show what looks like an opening across the top where it meets the bow. Two very differently distinct top designs.
Also I am still unsure if the early 230s are the only cars to have the wire. Can someone confirm if a late 280sl does.
I have emailed the vendor with photos and asked for clarification on how I am suppose to make it work. Will be interesting as it was now over a year since the order was placed.
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Thanks Hans,
My original color code for the interior was ivory but I have changed it to black leather. What do you think this would have done to the color of the soft top frame I refer too?
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Hi Andy,
Black leather on a 230SL, that is code 201. Such a car has Sun shades in vinyl code Grey 2108 and the HardTop inner vinyl White 3050.
The spec is not so clear on the front soft top bow, however all parts on the dash, inner A-pillar and various other parts of interior were covered in black leather.
Your car from factory, I do not see a colour "ivory" in our Wiki. What number is in your data card? Is that White grey (Weissgrau) 5102
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans. I may end up leaving it. At the moment its a light ivory color very close to the factory headlining in the hardtop.. Just look a bit strange sandwiched between black and tan. Have just been out and have discovered where the wire runs in the top. Now just have to sort out how the rear wooden bow attaches to top.
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It looks like sls offer two colors fir the hood lining. Either tan or black. I would have preferred black. The tan doesnt go very well at all with silver and black leather. Was never given the option
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It looks like sls offer two colors fir the hood lining. Either tan or black
They do. The black is totally non-original however.
From factory our cars were only delivered with the inside of the soft top in tan herringbone pattern Sonnenland fabric.
/Hans in Sweden
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The soft top saga goes on. I have contacted both the vendor and GAHH. GAHH have come back to me and acknowledged that they have never done a top for the early 230's and are in the process of suggesting some modifications. Still waiting on the procedure. Will let you know. I have also spoken with SLS about the tops and they instantly informed me I needed the correct early open top to make it work without 'further modification'. They sell both versions.
Today I have decided to press ahead and get the soft top mechanism all lined up and operating smoothly. Dont know if this is the thing to do or is a waste of time without the soft top material fitted but I just need to keep on going. Sitting and waiting is driving me nuts.
The setup of the frame was quite fiddly. I had to play around with the shims to get the levels even on both sides. I also had a bit of a nightmare with the rear bow which locks down into the hatch cover. It locked all right but then it wouldn't unlock. An hour latter and quite a bit of time spent on my side inside the boot and I managed to hook the latch and release it. Next job is to attach a release wire and leave it dangling in the boot in case I ever have another issue with the locking mechanism. The problem was sorted easily by adjusting the central pivot point on the new cable. Operates with ease now. Also got both the hatch release locks both opening simultaneously which makes a huge difference. Before the drivers side was opening way before the the passengers side resulting in the hatch jumping up on one side sooner than the other which isn't too good. Now all three pop together.
Moved on to setting up my door glass and doing a final tighten up. I know I should do this with the hard top first but just want the car going and back on the road registered, warranted and usable in the month. The hard top will take far longer to complete and I intend to replace all the seals on it which will more than likely change the way it sits on the car. Most of the seal are almost disintegrated and I think as a result the top would sit closer to the car than it would with fresh seals.
Getting the glass right took quite a bit of patience as well. Once your familiar with all the adjustments the second one is much quicker. Spent a further half an hour per door chasing any perceivable rattles and sorting out rubber block etc to solve the problems. Silent rattle free doors are a must in my mind. Nothing worse and more frustrating than having to put up with clunking or rattling especially on long runs.
So now I am in a position to fit up my door cards. I know these are going to be a royal pain in the ass as well. My initial trial fit almost drove me crazy. You could make the job easier by getting rough and bending the cards. But after so much money, time and care has been lavished on these I will be taking a very careful approach.
I am contemplating gluing waterproof material to the back of the cards rather than the door. For the life of me I cannot understand why they didn't do this at the factory. As far as I can tell the only thing your trying to protect is the cardboard backing board. Water will always get in on the outer lip of the doors, between the glass and the outer brush seal. But this water to my mind will typically dribble down the outer face of the door and drain through the factory holes in the base.
Can anyone give me a good reason why you need to seal the door rather than protect just the door card.
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Andy,
Correct me if I am wrong but you appear to be missing the two rubber buffers that fit at the front of the rear steel bow, there purpose is to stop the soft top cover from being marked when you pull the lever to release the soft top cover/rear locking catch (they fit with the buffer down).
They are available at MB and are cheap, probably because the part # has changed from a 113 # to a 107#, I can give you the part # tomorrow if you wish I have just ordered two.
It was my intention to replace the rubber buffers that fit at the bottom of the soft top B pillar(they screw onto the soft top B pillar at the bottom and butt onto the chrome cap when the soft top is up, but when I got the price I decided the old ones were serviceable. MB want £68 EACH plus 20% vat, I have asked my local stealer to query this price.
Dick Turpin and Robin Hood are alive and well in Stuttgart.
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Thanks Eric. Not sure where these pne fit up to. Any chance of a photo so i can get my bearings. I have the two rubber b pillar units both in good condition thankfully.
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Hello Andy,
Have a look at SLS and go to 77a soft top the buffer is item 68 and it slides onto the item above it, the rear bow is adjustable with two bolts either side, remove these bolts and lift of the rear bow off, you then slide on the rubbers onto the male arms that the rear bow locates on.
SLS gives you the MB part #
I can do you a picture tomorrow if you are still unsure.
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My foray into fitting the door panel back on wasn't initially to successful. They are an absolute mongrel to get right. Getting them seating into all the various channels and clips takes quite a bit of patience and gentle coaxing. Especially if you have leather which tends to be a bit thicker. It a very tight squeeze to get the boards into the 4mm chrome channels at the bottom and front of the door. I to the panel clipped at the top and then shuffled it toward the front of the car into the the forward channel and then put my arm behind the panel and put a careful bow in it so I could drop the bottom edge into its correct position.
Anyway got everything in place and everything was going swimmingly until I decided to stand back and admire my work from every angle. Shut the door to see if everything was clearing and heard a horrible thwank twang noise. Horrible feeling ensued.
After a bit of investigation the problem was identified. Half the door check mechanism was afloat and was able to be pulled from the door. The pins which hold the two halves had somehow both made there way inwards and the two parts had parted company.
Nothing left to do but strip the door again. All I could do was laugh. Probably better to happen now while it was all fresh on my mind.
I actually made quick work of the strip out and soon had the parts on the bench ready for repair. The two small pins have an interference pattern cut into them and are pressed into a tight fitting hole in the door check. Once the pins have been knocked out and refitted a couple of time the interference has obviously worn off a tad.
Time to get brutal as the only other option is to replace which for me is currently not an option. Out came the welder and I can safely say the pin are not going to move in a hurry. I think I will do the same to the passenger side as well.
The panel re- refit took about an hour in total. Am tickled pink with the result. It looks much better in the flesh than in the photo. Will move on to the other side tomorrow. Expect it will take me less than half the time.
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Cheer Eric. I will chase that up soon and get back to you if its not obvious.
Another thing I did today was to also go ahead with my plan of waterproofing the door card rather than applying a plastic wrap on the door. I hate the idea of having to continually break the door seal to work on the mechanisms within. I am certain I will have to do this in the upcoming months as my hard top is completed and I have to adjust up the glass again.
I glued up my closed cell foam and then taped the edges with PVC tape effectively waterproofing the entire card. As an added bonus it became immediately apparent that the extra 2mm of foam is acting beautifully as a sound deaden er. Actually quite a measurable difference to the other card I haven't yet attacked.
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Hi Eric. Checked out sls site and found the part. I dont have them and only vaguely know where they go. I would very much appreciate a photo of them in situ. What happens if these are missing. I am also currently trying to source the two curley springs that help tension the side panels of the soft top. There is always so much to learn about these little cars. I have been amazed at actually how complicated and fiddly they were. No robot in the modern world would have a show on the 113 production line.
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Hi Andy, I came to the conclusion that the curly spring things are there to stop the soft top material being
trapped by the latch mechanism. They are not always effective hence the redesigned latch mechanism on
later tops.
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Thanks larry. Buds have a pair for 40usd. Do you think its worth getting them. I guess it will be another original feature ticked off.
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.../...the two curley springs that help tension the side panels of the soft top.../...
Yes, perhaps you noted this post in the Forum were these wires/springs were discussed:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21178.0 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21178.0url)
/Hans in Sweden
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Hi Andy, I bought a pair but had problems fitting then so left them off. I do not have the latches installed and
use a strap attached to the rear most bow which I pull to keep the bows together when raising the sot top.
I just hated the thought of holes appearing in my newly fitted top!
I found fitting the new top fairly easy, but should be done in warm weather. It will be very tight to begin with, took
two of us to latch it the first few times but will stretch and become easier.
Cheers
Larry
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Dear Andy!
The soft top saga goes on. I have contacted both the vendor and GAHH. GAHH have come back to me and acknowledged that they have never done a top for the early 230's and are in the process of suggesting some modifications. Still waiting on the procedure. Will let you know. I have also spoken with SLS about the tops and they instantly informed me I needed the correct early open top to make it work without 'further modification'. They sell both versions.
That's correct. It's a bit tricky. ;)
A friend of mine got a (black) softtop canvas from GAHH. It fitted just perfect on his '68 280 SL.
Ordered mine through GAHH as well indicating my built year (1964). Got the same canvas, was told it would fit my early 1964 230 with wooden bow (like yours) but it did not quite.
The professional (Udo R.), who put on my canvas, was a bit annoyed. He did not open the top over the upper wooden bow but just put it on. That's not the real problem. The main problem is that it was (and still is) a very tight fit. Basically, the late-stype softtop canvas is a bit too small for the wooden-bow softtop-230ies. Nevertheless, my top(even though it is literally the wrong one) looks great. After a couple of months with the ST up it's getting better. The chrome strip was put on by him as well. That was no problem at all.
Quintessence:
Looks great but in general I recommend using the proper early-style softtop-canvas for your car (e.g. from SLS or so) - especially if you plan putting it on yourself. ;)
Good luck,
Achim
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Thanks guys. Appreciate the feedback. Jack from GAHH and I have been bouncing dozens of email over the past 24 hours. He has been very helpful and has offered to send me over some more matching material to wrap the wooden bow. I dont really have any other option to be honest. I just wish they would have warned me on day one and I would have steered well clear. Its really slowing me down again. Probably have to wait another couple of weeks before the bits turn up and I can proceed.
As Achim has pointed out the tops are beautifully made and to all intents look very easy to fit. Touch wood.
Achim, I would very much appreciate if you could take a few quick snaps of your roof up showing exactly where the chrome garnish molding is positioned relative to the rear seam line. Did they punch the nails through the stitching or is is offset 10mm on the topmost panel if that makes sense.
Also if you could take some from inside the car showing how they wrapped the bow and also the front stays. I want to see how tightly they did it and also which direction it was wrapped and how it was trimmed off. Any help would be fantastic otherwise I am shooting blind.
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Have started thinking about getting the car road legal while i wait for the soft top parts. Before i drive it out of the road i need to insure it. How much do i insure it for. I am thinking about 90k nzd or around 70k usd. What sort of values is everyone else insuring for.
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Andy,
Insurance is tricky here in the States. Any guaranteed value policy is going to have restrictions on mileage (1,000 - 2,000 miles per year, I think) which is about 5,000 miles less than I drive my 1970 280SL. Almost every "normal" auto insurance policy is an Actual Cash Value policy, which means if the car is in an accident, every part will be covered, subject to a deductible per event, at replacement cost, which is most often an ebay price, or a mercedes dealer price, whichever less. If the accident is serious, they will research the market value of the car by using available valuation resources. Thus, I have countless dated pictures of my car, and a recent appraisal. (mine is a year old for about $60k USD). I have spent hours on the phone with the claims folks at the Allstate Home Office who have shared their methodology and I am comfortable with my decision. I did have a fender bender with my car and broke a headlight door (just the plastic) I got a check for $1,423.00 (and I have my own stockpile of AJ Headlight doors).
For my car to sustain $60k of damage, I probably won't be around to worry about fixing it. It is unlikely that the car will ever be "totalled" and the repairs would always be made to get it back on the road. If stolen, my appraisal and Hagerty/Hemmings valuations should suffice. And I can drive the car anywhere I want, for as long as I want.
As the 4th vehicle on my auto policy, I pay about $230 USD per 6 months, with no restrictions, $2m of liability, a $500 collision deductible, and a $0 comp deductible. So, I guess you have to decide how much you want to drive this beautiful car.
Hope this helps.
Mike Mizesko
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Achim, I would very much appreciate if you could take a few quick snaps of your roof up
Andy,
Yes, I will do so.
Getting a few pics this upcoming weekend and forward them to you.
Thanks a lot,
Achim
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Thank Achim, those photos will be massively helpful to my cause. Crank your camera up to the highest resolution so I can zoom right in on the detail.
Today is another major milestone ticked off. The car is now fully road legal. I got it insured yesterday and this morning it flew through a warrant of fitness. Also slapped four months of registration on the old girl. The registration system in New Zealand is just set to change in three months to a much cheaper annual rate so everyone over here is just getting the bare minimum of coverage under the old system until the new kicks in. Even under the old expensive system its dirt cheap over here with an exemption for older classic and vintage cars. Anything over 40 years is only about 80 dollars US a year. A warrant of fitness costs around 20 usd and has to be renewed every six months.
The guys at the testing station were all over the car. What should have taken 15 minutes ended up at about 30-40 after they had all had a chance to look and talk to me about the car. Very different to what they normally deal with so the interest level was quite high. A couple of them threw me their mobile phones and asked to have photos taken sitting in the drivers seat. Didn't really want greasy mechanics boots all over my new square weave carpet but I obliged non the less.
Fantastic feeling to have it all road legal though. I took it for a decent run and its going like a charm. I have a strange clunk directly under the driver seat when I go over potholes. I think it may be the exhaust hitting the body. But on a smooth road the entire car purrs and is very smooth and silent. I think all the replacement rubber suspension components has made a huge difference to the way it drives. Guess its close to how it was when it left the factory.
The further I drive it the more settled it seems to become. Quite a noticeable difference.
Cant wait to use it. Feels very strange to be able to drive it after it being more or less a static display item for so long. Also just a bit unhappy that we are at the very end of the sunny top down season and I don't have any form of roof currently. I am desperately hoping the soft top works out and doesn't take an eternity to fit correctly.
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Andy Re Valuation.
I would think that after your recorded restoration your car should be top value,
maybe stickandrudderman can advise?
(over here it would cost you £40K for a good useable car, so I think your valuation is too low)
I think RHD cars, especially here in UK are of greater value than a LHD in Europe or US.
In UK the official Mercedes Benz Club have a valuation service, and a chief valuer.
It may be worth contacting them for advice, as they should know what the UK members car values are like.
The secretary EMail is catherine.barlow@mercedes-benz-club.co.uk
It may be worth contacting M-Benz clubs in UK/Australia/NZ for similar information.
There is an article on a complete Pagoda restoration in the current April issue
I enjoy your updates,
Keep well
Paul
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Andy, I think you have to value it to locality as you cannot judge it to US or Europe or even UK as a RHD. The exchange rates then further skew potential comparisons.
in Aust a decent driver sells (advertised may be more)) for between $60 - $80K A really well sorted car that is in excellent shape will go for $100 - $130 with total restorations going for $120 to $150 and the odd one sold by commercial sellers getting more still but usually sold out of country. I have mine insured for $125k. Maybe its a tad low but realistic.
We do not have the big variations between the models here like US, it all comes down to condition. Drivers with a 280Sl maybe getting 5% - 10% at tops more. Concourse pretty much all even but at best 5% variation.
Offering for sale and actually selling can be quite a different price and vary as much as $30+k in the upper end.
Just my view of the recent actual sales, not asking price.
Garry
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I ended up insuring the car for 120k NZD which works out to around 90k USD. So in line with Garry. I went for a 5000km policy which cost about 400 a year. The insurance company have all my work so i got a fairly sizable discount. I also went through all my existing policies and modifed all sorts of stuff which meant i pretty much reduced my overall premium to a point the pagoda was free. So a good result.
needless to say if i totalled the car i think i would have a tough time trying to replace it for my nominated value. You might get lucky and find one in similar condition but more than likely have to start the restoration process over. I have absolutely no doubt that i will never be doing this again and can honestly say that at 120k the profit margin would probably work out to less than minimum wage once you have deducted the purchase and materials. Its simply been a labor of love.
I think Garry is correct in his statement regarding locality as well. If it were to be totalled the insurance company would more than likely investigate and pay out on local prices. The highest i have heard a fully restored pagoda being sold for in NZ is around the 120k mark.. but that was a year ago.
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I totally agree with you Andy,
If I total my car I doubt I would be able to replace it at that price and even if I could it would take me 2-3 years to get it all up to scratch again. The insurance company I have does a fixed price and I could probably increase it provided i have photos of all the work and even then it would be a struggle. What they will do though is sell me the wreck for a couple of grand so this is a good start and would probably be the saviour. I had heard that there had been a $200k one sold in Sydney but have not been able to confirm that.
Garry
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A Challenge for everyone in here. Identify the engine and the car its in from this photo. Assume the engine is original.
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Yesterday I received in the mail a dash pot for the accelerator linkage I order from Ebay. The pot was specifically advertised as a 230sl unit. http://www.ebay.com/itm/221715392972?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Taking it out of the box and comparing it side by side my damper it was instantly obvious it was the wrong one.
Before I went back to the vendor I decided to see if I could make it work. The replacement pot had a shorter stud out the back by almost 20mm and the plunger pin is also shorter by about the same length. So to make this fit in the 230sl bracket I needed to extend the bolt out the back. So down I chug to the local hardware store. The extra stud and nut are strangely both UNC. Came home and cut down the bolt to the correct length and then screwed the dash and the new stud together against a nut.
Fitted it up and quickly discovered it simply wasn't going to work. There is not enough adjustment in it now as the improvised nut now prevents the pot from moving. Also because the dash pot has a much shorter plunge pin the unit must sit much closer to the linkages and comes extremely close. If they ever interfered than the throttle could jam open which is an obvious safety hazard. I am guessing that Mercedes got the supplier to lengthen the front pin for this exact reason.
Another example of being sent the wrong stuff and it consuming hours and hours of effort to put right.
Contacted the vendor and was told that I could make it fit by bending my bracket. I sent an email back indicating that I didn't think that would work and restating that the item was not correct for a 230sl. Was told in no certain uncertain terms that it was correct and that he had one installed in his very own 1964 230sl. A photo was provided. The one I put up in my previous post. To my eye it is not a 230 and looks more like a 280 engine. The brackets and linkages are different and its got the plastic sleeve over the breather hoses. All sorts of details that I don't recognize on my 127 engine. Perhaps the late 127 engines were different. I would be surprised.
I wrote back to the vendor and pointed this out. I also asked him why if it was his own car, and he had to bend the bracket would he think that the part is correct. I also asked him if he would provide another photo a bit zoomed out showing that it was indeed an early 230sl and also provide me with the VIN. I have clearly told him that if he demonstrates to me that this part is in fact correct for any standard factory version of the 230sl I will happily go away and lick my wounds. Other than statement like 'it is correct' no tangible evidence has been put on the table. The more evidence I put on the table to prove my point of view just seems to be met with anger,accusation and denial.
I tried before purchasing this to obtain the correct part through MB and was told its NLA. I asked SLS and Buds and neither carried it. It would seem that it incredibly rare. I am now wondering if what has actually happened here is the vendor has procured some similar dash pots from another model or even brand of car thinking it might be ok without actually doing the due diligence to make sure.
The value that the vendor put on this part, and that I paid, reflects the rarity. If this has been taking advantage off and something much more available but not quite right is being passed off then I am pissed.
The vendor has offered to take back the part but is not willing to pay for the shipping. The fact he isn't even interested to investigate if he has got it wrong kind of tells me all I need to know.
I probably will end up trying to cut it up and carefully weld bits on it to make it work. That annoys me because I paid a small ransom not to.
Interested in everyone's thoughts.
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the part on the picture supplied by the vendor looks like your original one, not like the one he supplied to you.
The intake manifold on the picture supplied by the vendor looks like a "small" one, specific to US versions. I think they were only available on 280s. But I will let the experts confirm this as I'm not 100% sure.
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I had the same problem years ago. The one I ordered did not fit. I cleaned up my original dash pot and installed the spring and rubber boot from the new one. It works perfect to this day.
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Andy,
it is unfortunate that you may have missed this discussion and the photo with the dimensions of the dashpot it would have been clear that the advertised one is different:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16057
I have the same problem at the moment and made a working one from two different ones. It is easy because you can pull out the front part with the spring and exchange it with a different one as shown. The Mopar p/n is J8127729 and I also spray painted the body of the Buick DV-60.
Furthermore, keep in mind that the threads on these dashpots are not metric!
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Thanks guys, reading your comments and following up on your post has only served to further boil my blood. Am a very principled chap who probably gets more wound up than I should but I just hate the feeling that I have been taken for a ride.
Alfred your post in particular was very insightful. It has led me to the origin of the part which seems to have been designed for an AMC Jeep. I have found several references on the internet with identical part numbers and appearance to the one I have been supplied.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OE-Mopar-Jeep-AMC-Carter-BBD-Dashpot-J8127729-/331231439316
https://www.carsandcarparts.net/ebpr/oe-mopar-jeep-amc-carter-bbd-dashpot-j8127729/331231439316/
However the price for the part I paid for seems significantly higher from my supplied at 79.99 down to 24.99 for the same one in a box labelled with AMC Jeep on it.
It didn't however come in the manufacturers box but was removed and supplied in another unbranded cardboard equivalent. Strange that.
It was advertised as for a Mercedes 113 230sl and did not bare any reference or warning that it needed modification for it to be usable.
I don't know about you guys but this just smacks of a rip of gouge by someone who walks amongst us who I would expect to be a bit more accurate in his description of the part.
Perhaps I should just keep my mouth shut and go and advertise a whole bunch of my W108 parts as 113. I mean some of them look kind of the same.
Absolutely levered. I would like to invite the vendor to this discussion to explain. Perhaps I have it all wrong.
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Babak, will you please give me a full refund and also pay for the return shipping in advance.
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How do I recognize a fault dashpot, i.e. when do I need to replace it?
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A Challenge for everyone in here. Identify the engine and the car its in from this photo. Assume the engine is original.
Yes, that's a late 280 engine with a shorter squarer inlet manifold and the vacuum takeoff in the centre.
Naj
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Hi Jowe, when the internal diaphragm goes there is no resistance and there is no damping. As the throttle linkage start to engage the dashpot the piston very slowly compresses over the last cm or so of travel and bring the linkage to a halt on its stop in a very slow and controlled manner. If yours doesn't do this either its not adjusted correctly or is perished. When its out of the car its obvious when you compress it with your fingers.
Naj, just reinforces what I thought. Kind of obvious its not a 230 engine. Would love for the vendor to join the conversation.
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Andy, I can certainly understand how it would roast your nuts after having spent so much time, money and energy getting your car into tip top shape only to be held back in the final stretch by a small part and an ornery vendor. It's pretty obvious that if you have to bend a part in order to get something to fit that it is not the correct part.
I don't however understand why Benzrestorer (Babak) doesn't just take the part back and refund your money. Doesn't make him look good to other potential customers like myself, even if he is charging twice what is probably a mopar or GM part (mine was for a Buick Lesabre).
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Andy,
Can you not use the EBay disputes mechanism to claim a refund for your expense ?
Good luck,
Paul
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Jordan it is driving me nuts. I am very low on funds which really rubs salt into the wound. I want a refund quickly so I can start on a hunt for a 'real' part.
Paul I have desperately tried to resolve this with the vendor. No more than 14 emails to him. I have put all my finding to him and begged him to give me some tangible evidence that he hasn't just done a swapparoo on AMC part, which would never have any shot of fitting, and re branded it Mercedes and then hiked the price 300%. Nadda. From where I am sitting he either should pay up right away or put on the table some sort of explanation. I don't care if it was a mistake it just need to be addressed from his side asap. Some sort of apology would have been great. Probably around email one or two.
I have asked him to refund me today so I can get on with the replacement and he has demanded that I have to send it back to him before a refund can be made. Another two weeks. I have given him my word that if he refunds me now I will sort the shipping out for him (at his cost) in the next 24 hours. Apparently my word is not good enough. I am over it.
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Vendor decided to refund. Thank you.
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Today a parcel turned up from Jack at GAHH. I had issues with the soft top they supplied which wasn't quite right for the 230sl and was really designed for the 280. Jack immediately acknowledged the problem and sent over some instructions and the bits and pieces to make it fit a 230sl. Hats off Jack and GAHH.
Small things trip you up on these cars and you can spend hours in the detail. Today epic was replacing two very unusual blind rivets that hold the front soft top spat to the webbing. They were perfectly penned at the factory on both sides with no visible eyes.
I went to several upholstery and engineering shops this morning searching. I gave up and purchase some aluminum blind and sealed rivets. I knew they wouldn't look as good but will provide the same fixing ability.
They worked out quite well but required working the bulging side of the rivet with a hammer to flatten that side off. I also followed up by gluing the spat to the webbing and also glued on the other side another off cut of the webbing effectively creating a pouch which should not only support the spat but also prevent and chaffing of the flattened rivet on the expensive soft top.
Tomorrow I will attempt the hard top fit. Fingers crossed for some calm water.
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Andy,
On top of the webbing sandwiched between the webbing and the soft top should be a length of approximately one inch wide elastic strapping (wide knicker elastic), it is fitted front to rear and is screwed to the frame with one screw only on each cross member, this stops the screws and the said rivet coming into contact with the soft top material.
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.../.. should be a length of approximately one inch wide elastic strapping (wide knicker elastic)
An important detail on the soft top frame, before fitting fabric. Often missed by [not-so meticulous] vendors, but is really useful. It serves to help fold the fabric easier and more neatly when storing the soft top. Note also, on Pagoda cars that have had their soft tops for several decades, the elastic properties of this strapping has of course degraded.
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks guys. Any photos of this elastic. As long as i can visualize it i will replicate it possible.
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Here is a photo that JamesH sent me when he did his top. Perhaps he has others showing the full length.
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That great thanks. I can see that he has used the existing securing screws to hold the elastic. I am a bit worried about using the ones i have got as they are tapered and trying to penetrate the extra thickness of the elastic may compromise the holding ability. Last thing you would want is for these to let go when the top comes under tension.
I will try and source some slightly longer stainless screws.
ok so now i just need to know where the rear mounting point is. I could take it all the way to the wooden bow. I think Eric is indicating that its screwed to every bow from front to rear. If this is the case how much tension between each bow?
i am also trying to get my mind around the exact purpose of this. Is it just to give the top just that extra bit of reverse tension so when the roof is cracked it will spring back that little bit easier.
I cant imagine that after the top had been released that the elastic will have much effect after the tension has been released. Perhaps this is the key to setting up the elastic. Do you tension it with the the hood folded to a certain position so its effective from the extended position right back to where you tensioned it.
I am sure this is all obvious to those who have lived with this mechanism for some time. But i unfortunately only have ever lifted my top once before i pulled it apart and i didn't take any notice of this detail.
I am starting to get the picture but am not fully there yet. This is awesome stuff that's come just in time for me to put the hood on but is now frustratingly going to delay me again. Good frustration though. Definitely not going to glue down the top until i get this resolved.
So if anyone can shed some light on how to set this up I would very very grateful. Will make a trip this morning to get some elastic. Am assuming all elastic material is made equal. Probably get to the sewing shop and be confused by 100 different variations!
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Andy,I have just done this task, I glued and screwed it to the front first using the centre screw then I moved to the next rail back (not the riveted one ) I used very moderate tension and inserted one screw (no glue, one screw as was fitted to the old elastic), I continued with each rail (using one screw) until I reached the rear one, as you know this is a floating rail, I pulled the rail to the rear manually and held it in place with one hand, tensioned the elastic( the elastic is folded over at the rear glued and both screws fitted) as this is difficult without another pair of hands I only fitted one screw. I then went to the other side and did the same, when everything was correct and in position I placed a weight on the rear floating rail to hold it in tension, removed the single screw, refolded the elastic placing some glue between the elastic and the webbing (the webbing is also glued to the rail at this point but this was done when the webbing was fitted) and fitted both screws.
You do not need longer screws the original ones are ample.
I realise that it is a little late for you but if anyone is interested you can get the correct webbing from MB, they will tell you it is not available for the W113 but if you ask for the webbing as fitted to the R107 you will get the webbing you require.
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i am also trying to get my mind around the exact purpose of this. Is it just to give the top just that extra bit of reverse tension so when the roof is cracked it will spring back that little bit easier
Yes you can say that. Also, the pivoting frame bar (see pic attached) will move to the rear, pulled by the elastic bands, when front attachment points are released and top is moved towards the rear. This will aid in folding the soft top fabric so that it goes more neatly into the well.
/Hans in Sweden
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Thanks Hans. Off to buy my elastic. Can you guys tell me if i am going to be screwing this to each of thr bows and if so how much tension should i apply on the elastic between each bow. Should it be stretched to give as much as possible.
or does the elastic just get attached at the very front and then only on the very rear.
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As expected there is a dizzying array of elastic to choose from. Probably 20 different flavors. Immediately one caught my eye because of the color almost being the same as the webbing. As it turned out its the one I ended up going with. Not only was it the right hue but it was also the most waterproof of the lot as it was designed specifically for woman's swimwear. It made for a very interesting conversation with the elderly shop assistant. She seemed quite bemused when I plonked it down on the counter. We discussed for a good five minutes the difference between all the variations. Woven, Loomed, Dense and a few other subtle variations were all discussed. I now feel empowered with my new found knowledge. I didn't explain to her what it was for.
Got home and discovered I have purchased twice as much as I needed as the stuff stretches to twice its resting length. I glued and screwed the two sides from the very front bow to the bow that run over the top of the B pillar. I need to know if the elastic should be screwed in the middle bow and also if there is any benefit running it all the way to the back wooden bow. Please let me know how the professionals do it.
I have tried a few times to retract the mechanism into the well to see how its going to help. Its still a bit of a mystery to me without the top actually on. I was always terrible at visualizing stuff.
I think I have done enough to get on with fitting the top now. Even if the elastic has to attach to the rear wooden bow I am able to move forwards as I can always loop the webbing and elastic over it and secure it with glue and screws onto the back surface of the bow. The reason I replaced the webbing was due to the wooden bow not being far enough back to match up with the new hoods seam lines. So I had to lengthen the webbing to achieve this.
According to Jack at GAHH the last thing you do is secure the bows to the hood so I should be ok with this.
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Took the plunge this afternoon and started fitting the canvas. Jack gave me general instructions which all seem very sensible.
1) Secure the rear gluing and clamping. Make sure you center the canvas and secure in the middle stretching and gluing outwards as you go.
2) Secure the very front of the canvas with glue, screw and clamps. Again center and work outwards.
3) Open and lock the canvas in place to give it a good stretch
4) Secure the B Pillar wires. Thread them through the canvas and secure with the two cup washers and screws
5) Glue and clamp the B Pillars
6) Finish off inside by securing all the roof to all the bows
I finished up step one. Was quite time consuming and probably is the most difficult to get right. Took a bit of giggling to get the canvas centered. If you dont get this right then one side will be tighter at the base of the B pillar which could cause some quite big issues when you get to that part. There is a certain give in the canvas but only about 5mm at the base of the B pillar. Even though I got the thing centered and the amount of stretch required at my B pillars is also even from left to right, it still scares me a bit how much more it needs to be stretched to reach the pillar.
You cant do this under tension and will rely on leverage when the top finally pull this section taught. I have visions of the top tearing. The old top was torn on both sides at this location. I am not sure if it was due to an inferior top or bad fitment.
Managed to get the back completely done and am really happy with it thus far. I am a bit worried as it seems the only way I can get the rear bow to lock down on the back of the car is to slam it pretty hard. Is this how it should be. There is not much more adjustment. The top is very snug against the paintwork which I am hoping is good.
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Andy,
A little too late now but the elastic is secured to all the cross rails, except the riveted rail and of course the rear bow, I did indicate this in my last post, this is why the elastic is ! flapping in the wind ! as you say.
For anyone doing this job in future it has been my understanding that you start from the front, but I could be missing something.
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Thanks Eric. I did take your advice and have secured every bow to the elastic. I will secure the rear bow as well. Definitely not to late. I havnt secured the front so can still peel it back off the frame. Also Deliberately left a tail more than long enough to go right around the rear wooden bow so all possibilities still covered.
I had no idea of the order. Guess it doesnt matter if you started from the front just following the gahh instructions. Would guess that they have fitted quite a few of them and wernt steering me to far wrong. Guess the proof will be the end result which i will be sharing good or bad.
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The following was the email Jack sent me. Just double checked it in case i had stuffed up with the order of proceedings.
From: "Jack Dekirmendjian" <jack@gahh.com>
Sent: 24 March 2015 5:55
Subject: RE: RE: soft top
Your welcome Andrew.
All of our top install instructions are for models 2000 and newer.
General rule for the W113 soft top is to start from rear base.
Locate center marks on rear base bow and soft top.
Glue together at center mark and stretch equally to both sides to reach quarter.
Run side tension cables through the top sleeves and connect both front corners of top to frame.
Lock down front header with only corners fitted and go back to quarters and glue support flaps to frame.
Unlock front header and glue front edge of top to header (with little stretch) and now ready to glue the inner listing wraps.
Hope these tips help!
Jack Dekirmendjian, VP
GAHH Automotive
11128 Gault Street
North Hollywood, CA 91605
www.gahh.com
Tel 818.432.3757 x100
Fax 818.432.9338
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.../... have secured every bow to the elastic
This is correct. See my text [blue] on your picture, re: the pivoting bow. Also reply #1600 and #1601.
/Hans in Sweden
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Have a bit of a dilemma which needs and answer before I continue today wit the top.
The canvas has a double layer of fabric to be secured. One slightly longer than the other. My question relates to where each of these layers/tales gets glued to.
Two possibilities
1) The other shorter one is glued to the outside of the B pillar and serves to take all the tension of the top. The second tail is pulled around the back and inside of the B Pillar and serves only for cosmetic purposes to garnish/wrap the back side of the pillar. If you do this from inside the car you would end up seeing the back side of the canvas ie the same color as the roof.
2) Both tails are glued to the outside of the A Pillar. Glue down the Long tail first wrapping right around the L bend on the pillar. Then glue the second short tail to the long tail. This would provide additional strength to the top up and down the pillar.
Both approaches seem plausible but not being a trim guy I dont know which way to go here.
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Cranked on with the hood fitment. Jack came back to me and enlightened me on the mystery double flap. He instructed that they are doubled up to increase the strength down the B pillar as this section is under the highest load and often they rip at the base of the B pillar as a result. My old one was torn here. I guess it also gets a hiding when its folded into the well.
Glued everything up and mounted up the clamp bars.
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Moved on to the front of the top. Needed a bit of alteration for the differences in between the 230 to 280. Needed to trim quite a bit of the front pocket. Quick work with a sharp scalpel. All the gaps are quite good. I reglued and tension a couple of sections to improve things. May still have another crack at it tomorrow but am wondering if after it starts getting pulled up and down a dozen times if all the detail will be lost as the top stretches. Perhaps its good enough.
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All in all happy with the result and will finish off the interior work and the tension wires in the morning. Its been a long day. Will just leave you with the photos.
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Once again. Wow - your car looks fantastic. Sitting beautifully
And your garage floor is spotless too!
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Cheers james. The floor is actually a huge mess. Its got so much 2k paint all over it its not funny. After i am done with the tops i am buying 4 litres of paint stripper and bring the tiles back to something half decent. They are almost indestructible with the exception of welding splatter which i found out the hard way.
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Reunited
Finished off the last of the soft top. A few small tails to glue. Spent this morning withdrawing from the garage. Quite an ordeal. My grandfathers old 250s W108 now back where it belongs after a two year stint banished to the outside garage.
A pity I lost my 280se in the process but I am happy with my stash of old Mercs. I am pretty sure this is where its going to end. Still have to get the hard top stripped and painted which I know will be a big job but none the less it feels as if my journey is winding down.
I have taken the 113 on several drives now and each time it is just getting smoother and smoother as all the new rubber beds in. All the time I spent securing everything and sound proofing has really paid off. Rattle free and a very pleasant place to be.
Looking ahead I am trying to convince my wife to leave the kids with the grandparents and take a couple of weeks break to drive the car around the North and South Islands of New Zealand. This plan was scuttled today with the signing of a new contract so back to work after 8 months recovering from the the back injury. Feels strange.
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Andy,
They look fantastic in the garage together,
Garry
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Andy. I for one have enjoyed your journey thank you for telling us about it, Well done it looks great
Reg
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Hi Andy,
Congratulations on your journey, I have enjoyed your posts.
Re your Mystery Panel,
Is it not part of the under dash panel, on the drivers side, that has broken off between the pedals.
Keep well
Paul
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X2 on the underdash panel.
Congratulations on the results, as well as on the new job contract. Hope the 'celebration tour' happens!
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Congratulations, Andy!
And thank you for sharing. Your car looks perfect - time to enjoy! 8)
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Hi Andy, looks really good alright! If the mystery panel does turn out to be the panel for under the drivers side dashboard could you plse keep a pattern as I am missing mine too.
cheers
Rodger
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Rodger,
These are the dimensions of a RHD Drivers side Automatic, if any help.
keep well
Paul
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Hi Andy,
I have only patterns for LHD under dashboard coverings.
...WRe
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same case my greatgrandson is also 3 my restro was 2 yrs and way over budget
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Andy, I'm recruiting!
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May well take you up on that stick.
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Sorry for going quiet so abruptly. It wasnt something someone said.
After a friggen horrible year battling my spine injuries i was dealt another nasty blow one or two days after my last post on April 8. Wife decides to call it a day. In fact after reading back that post shows how oblivious i was to the events unfolding just around the corner. Hit me like a ton of bricks and was compounded by my already weakened spirit.
The past couple of months have been fraught with pain that had put the back injury into perspective. I hope never to repeat it again in my lifetime. Am sure there are at least a few of you in here that know what i mean.
The very very very good news is that i have managed to retain my home and the two old and beautiful mercs. All of these things have incredible sentiment value and meaning to me. i would have been absolutley gutted to loose any of them so am very happy to still feel i am still worthy of being a member in here. It wouldnt be the same if i was pagodaless.
Hopefully in few weeks I will get the motivation back to start tackling a few more of the less taxing outstanding jobs. Perhaps even take her for a quick run.
So dont quite know if its a good thing or a bad thing, but it looks as if your stuck with me for a while longer
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Sorry to hear that mate. Never an easy decision to make, nor to have made for you (which may indeed be tougher)
Hopefully it's all amicable and stays that way
Puts a couple of old lumps of metal into perspective.
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Sorry to hear about that Andy. Life can be tough.... just when you were planning a little vacation with your wife in the Merc. But remember, you have a bunch of friends here who will support you.
Peter
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Sorry to hear that Andy. We're here to support you.
Gael
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Andy, that is sad news but having been there myself many many years ago, I know there is always a silver lining on the other side when the dust settles.
As others have said, this is a close community here and you have many friends here for support.
Garry
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So sorry to hear that news Andy,
we never know what comes round the corner.
I hope the break is reasonably amicable and without too much lawyer input..
Remember to Keep your health in check
I am sure you have many friends here rooting for you
Paul
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Andy,
You've led us through quite the journey these past many months --- at times with surprising twists and turns -- gotten to know you through every pagoda nut & bolt. As many here, we looked forward to reading about your progress and challenges. I did not see this second-act plot-point twist coming --- wishing you the best as you regroup.
Snap some shots if you take the Pagoda out --- at least we can smile a little while we empathize.
Best,
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Sorry to hear that Andy.
This is a heck of a wake up call to many of us gearheads to make sure that we keep the missus happy. I have significantly backed off the car and motorcycle activities this Spring to focus on my relationship with my wife and so far in an truly unintentional way, I am getting more support than I have received in the past to go play with my toys.
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Affairs of the heart are never easy, but luckily the human body has enormous capacity for healing given the right conditions. I hope you have the right environment to make that healing process as fast as possible. My job offer still stands!
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Sorry to hear about your situation. I could have been worse!! It could have always been worse.
Look on the bright side. The only person you have to make happy is yourself.
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Stick with it Andy!
7 years ago my marriage of 18 years came to a conclusion......back then I owned just a single modern 4 door car (yep ...life was stale).
Now I have a beautiful new partner and 2 sets of twins - identical twin 2 y.o girls...... and twin pagoda's. (life is certainly not dull now!)
it's a proven fact that guys bounce back quicker...and stronger.
Hope you enjoy your new life as much as I have
Cheers
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Very sorry to hear this Andy - wish we could drop in for a beer and a tinkering together on the Pagoda. I had this happen and it's one of the worst experiences. But have been very happy with my missus now going on 17 years.
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Thanks guys. All your support has been of huge comfort to me. Its been a very rocky road for the past two months. I feel very very very battered and bruised. Have only just managed to get back into the garage to start admiring the cars again. You loose all sense of purpose when these things are going on and the gloss quickly goes from all the things you love. Hopefully it will return. I have got a hard road ahead to get myself back on my feet before I return to the pagoda. The kids have to be put first ahead of everything else at this point. Probably start looking at it again in another six months when I have a bit of cash and time behind me again.
Sticks offer of employment was very tempting. When I was in the darkest place I did contemplate just turning my back on everything and taking a 'sabbatical'. I appreciated the thought.
I am a bit worried about the engine. The few run I did manage to get in, before the proverbial **** hit fan, the plugs seemed to be still fouling even though the fuel air mixture out the pipe was near on perfect. Probably have to start looking at the injectors again and cross my fingers its not some other more sinister issue. At the moment it can just sit for a while.
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Road to Recovery
Going out on a date tonight. Pretty weird after 17 years to be doing this again.
What better way to impress than turn up in hands down one of the sexiest cars to ever grace our fair roads.
Am hoping it will get me bonus points ;)
All shined up and ready to rock and roll. Pray it doesn't rain.
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Looks good Andy, don't forget to keep a straight face when you tell her you've run out of gas.....
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Good luck Andy,
How long have you had the I Car, They are a rare sight over here, I bought ours new in 2008,
and have found it brilliant, apart from the disappointing fuel consumption.
Have fun
Paul
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The thought of you sat in bed with your bad back and a tray of parts on you knees will never leave me :D Hope it went well, ;)
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:)
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Thanks guys. Happy to report that everything went well :) and no Scott the car didn't run out of fuel. The owner is far to classy for that sort of malarky. Perhaps the preserve of corvette owners? Sharpen your game up lad your in the 113 fold now :)
Reggie, those were hard case days. Will look back and laugh at myself I think.... well as long as the bad back doesn't come back! Need to get my **** together and start on the hardtop at some point.
Paul have had the iCar since the ex took off with the M3, 280se and the 2002tii. lol. It was cheap as chips and has been a great little cheap runabout for me until I can afford something else. Fuel economy is around 6l/100km so not so bad. 4 would have been better I agree for 600cc. But its got me out of a hole so I am going to pat it on the back and hope nothing goes wrong for the next little while.
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Hey Andy. That's big blocks for you.....
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Glad to hear that you're starting to get back on your feet Andy.
My golden rule in life: You must first love yourself, for only then do you have anything of value to give.
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Thanks Stick. Thats an awesome mantra. Starting to live it again.... next time your down this way make sure you stop by for that beer. In fact I think its time all you lads shipped all your cars down here for a tour of New Zealand. I will provide the bbq, beer and sausages.
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Awesome day here in New Zealand. Took the kids and the dog for a huge tiki tour around Auckland. Lots and lots of looks and waves which was great. Hopefully lots more use from the old girl this summer. She also purred like a baby with only a bit of start issue still to deal with. Happy days....
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Good to hear you are starting to get the enjoyment from the Pagoda.
It was also a great day here and I took the Pagoda out for a short 80 mile run with the hard top still on but time to get it off.
Garry
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In fact I think its time all you lads shipped all your cars down here for a tour of New Zealand. I will provide the bbq, beer and sausages.
Be careful what you ask for..... I have relatives in Wellington who just had a baby that needs to be visited......
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That is a lovely city. I hope the dog & kids can be trusted not to chew the leather. Good luck Andy.
Dave
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Dave, the kids were under strict instruction and the dog had its muzzle taped up. lol. If your ever down this way that offer is definitely on the table to all you guys. Plenty of spare rooms now.
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Thinking of starting on my hardtop this week. Motivation on its way back. Two tone scheme decided upon. Passengers seat still vacant but trying hard to rectify the situation lol
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Hi Andy, greaty to hear you might be getting into the garage again to work on your car instead of getting me bits for my 280SE. I'd like to give you a hand on your hardtop around the window seals because the MBTex on mine needs replacing too.
cheers
Rodger K
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Nice to see you getting back some form Andy.
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Hi Andy.
My view is that there are plenty of women out there and not many cars as nice as yours, I have been married 43 years and would swop my wife for your car, i will even pay the shipping,
So spend your money on your hard top its safer, any female that happens by so be it, ;)
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Thanks guys. Reggie cars not for sale. Let's just say I have indirectly over capitalized on it by over half a mil. Lol.
Really go to pay some attention to the cold start circuit. I hate the little bimetallic timing can that controls the csv and the solenoid on the injection pump. It's going. Well I am going to keep the can and replace the internals with a synapse micro plc.
Just can't seem to adjust to original to give me excellent starting in all conditions.
I think coming up with a timing map based solely on block temp should do it.
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I just want to wish everyone in here a very merry Xmas and prosperous new years.
Also want to sincerely thank everyone one in here that's offered so much support and kindness during the past year. It won't ever be forgotten and at times had raised me to tears with gestures of overwhelming generosity and compassion.
Bless you all.
Cheers
Andy from NZ
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Thank you Andy for your wishes and your wonderful thread!
I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
...WRe
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All the best to you Andy and your Famaly this Holiday Season.
Marry Christmas and a Happy and Successful 2016
Dieter
PS. We will hit 17C today here in the Southwestern part of Ontario Canada. Our grass is still green feels like being down under :) thanks for all your writing and updates on this thread I as well as many others so enjoy following it.
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Indeed Andy, I hope that you are able to enjoy your Christmas.
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Andy,
A bit late for down under, but my best wishes for the new year!
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Having gone through a break up over 30 years ago I know what it's like. I wandered around for 9 years after that until I met my wife of 20 years now and with 4 grandchildren, life is fairly normal for us. Through all of this I had my cars, my music, and a couple of good friends. I didn't have then what we have here today - close buddies from distant places from all over the world which would have made a difference for me at that time, I'm sure. I know that after I had major surgery in 2006, the best wishes of this group was something I won't ever forget.
I think divorce might actually worse than death. When your partner dies you know you won't be seeing them again ( relative to your faith ) but when you split up you know you will very likely see them many times again and for some that can be very difficult if it wasn't something you wanted.
Good to see you on the mend and back at your cars. :)
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Perfect day here in Auckland and decided to take my car out for a drive to the beach to cheer me up. I got 20km into my journey and went to change into second and noticed I instantly had no clutch. Managed to get the car home in second which was extremely stressful.
I don't get it. The hydraulics all are perfect and the clutch release arm has full movement. Just absolutely no resistance. So all I can think off is given I still have drive to the gearbox is the clutch release plates teeth have sheared or somehow the release arms has jumped off the release bearing. I don't know. Don't need this right at the moment. Obviously a gearbox out issue.
Anyone willing to guess what I have cocked up.
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I assume you installed the disc in the right direction? ;D
If you have no resistance and the throw out fork has full movement it kind of sounds like something came apart in the clutch plate. Did you use a new disc? I've only seen one clutch fly apart in nearly 40 years of looking at these things so I'm thinking it isn't a very common problem.
Try lifting only one rear wheel and put the trans in gear. Try tuning the wheel by hand to see what happens. If you can turn the wheel the clutch plate is broken. It may not turn easily but there should be little movement in either direction if the clutch plate is good . If you can get a half turn or more it's pooched.
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Hey Dan,
I managed to drive the car all the way home with absolutely no sign of slippage so its a disengaging issue rather than a clutch failure. I have driven the car only 100 miles so didn't build up much of a impression but one thing I do remember was that when the car was in neutral and you put your foot on the clutch you could here the release bearing wiring away. I looked at it fairly carefully before I put it in and it seemed in really good condition only having done a thousand k from new. Am wondering if I was possible to put in backward or some moronic idiotic mistake like that. My pick is it might have seized and taken out all the clutch release fingers. It feels and looks as if its passing clear through the clutch plate. Will see. Pull it out today and post my mistakes for all to see.
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Put a pipe clamp on the hose at the slave cylinder and then see if you have a hard pedal. If you do then you either have slave cylinder failure or some mechanical falter in the fork, bearing or clutch itself but if you've driven the car I doubt the latter.
If your pedal is still soft then you probably have a failed master cylinder or some mechanical failure at the pedal mechanism.
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Hey stick. Thanks mate for the reply. I don't think it's going to be the hydraulic system as I can see absolutely full movement on the clutch fork arm when the brake is pressed. It can only be either the fork has come off the release bearing or the release bearing is sailing right through the middle of the pressure plate. I have just picked up some stands and am going to put the car up on blocks and see if I can quickly get my inspection camera in to see what the damage is. But gut tells me it's a waste of time and to just start unbolting things.
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The throw out fork pushes against the bearing so it can't come off. What is it doing? Can you not shift from one gear to the next or is it grinding going into gear?
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The gears can be engaged when the engine is off up no load. As soon as the engine is on its apparent that the clutch is no functioning. Graunching going into gear. Once in gear can't get the gearbox out of gear until the engine is turned off or the input shift speed matches the engine speed. I believe it's a clutch release plate failure. Any tests I can do to confirm it. Have dropped the slave cylinder and tried to peer in through the slot for the forked clutch arm but can't see anything really.
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Check how much free play you have between the push pin and the fork. Sounds like the fork isn't moving enough.
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What is the story on the clutch master cylinder.
Is it new or rebuilt?
I had this problem with failed seals in the m/c. No leaks of course!
naj
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Cheers Dan, before I pull the gearbox I will check this again but I am reasonably certain that there was very little free play from the pin to the fork and that the fork was being pushed almost to the back or entry slot cut in the bell housing ie the fork cant be pushed any further back. I will double check again tomorrow.
I have dug up some pics of the clutch going back together if anyone can see anything wrong sing out. I am certainly no mechanic!
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Naj master and slave all brand new from Buds
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Is one of those arms round the wrong way? The bottom one looks to be different than the other two.
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Hi Larry. Thanks for that good spotting, it does look different in the photo. Not sure. I do know with 100% certainty that I never disassembled the plate. Just cleaned it up the best I could which is why it had rust on it.
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Arm is installed correctly.
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made a start on removing the gearbox. Feels bloody good to be back on the tools again. First time in over ten months. Just like riding a bike. No chance of getting it ready for the car show this weekend but a start. Feeling much better :)
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A seized Pilot Bearing can also cause this. The trans input shaft gets seized to the engine. You mentioned bearing noise when the clutch was pushed in. Chances are your release bearing is seized or intalled backwards and finally ate its way through the clutch fingers.
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Pick the problem. Was immediately obvious. Looks like just incredibly bad luck..
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I have just had a really nasty thought. When I replaced the slave cylinder the one that was supplied to me was longer that the one I took off the car. If you remember I had issues fitting it and had to source another shorter push pin. I have just noticed on Buds site that there are two cylinders, one for the 230/250, and a separate one for the 280. This matches up to the difference between the pressure plates for the three models as well..
If you look at the damage to my pressure plate it would be explained by the hydraulic system over throwing the clutch fork and loading up the pressure plate. I am wondering if the 280 pressure plate has more travel than the 230/250
It kind of makes sense that with a longer body the new cylinder has more travel. Kind of works that way with hydraulics doesn't it?
Can we open this discussion up to some of you experts out there. I will go back to the vendor and see what they say.
Note the first two are of the damage finger mechanism. The last is of one of the remaining intact one for your comparison.
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I have to say that I've never seen this in the 40 years I've been working on these cars. I'm working on a 230SL right now that has a 280SL pressure plate so it would seem that some parts can be mixed and matched like this but I think you have to stay with the right slave cylinder relative to the throw out bearing you are using. A 230SL trans will only fit a 230SL style throw out bearing. The 280 throw out bearing fits to a larger boss on the input cover of the 280 trans and these to versions are not interchangeable.
My own car, uses a 280SL pressure plate, a 230SL throw out bearing, and 230 slave cylinder. It seems that the ZF 5 speed only uses a 230SL set up which is more than adequate for compressing the heavier 280SL pressure plate. When I first bought the car it still had the 230SL flywheel and clutch parts but it wouldn't hold the torque from my fresh rebuild on the 250SL engine that had already been installed when I bought it.
Not that I have any intentions of selling my car but I can just imagine anyone tying to order parts for it. :)
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New Sachs pressure plate obtained. After quite a bit of research on am now sure that my new master clutch is correct 230sl but the new slave supplied by the same vendor is looking like a 280sl. Really don't want to clamp it back on of it was the cause. As Dan pointed outout this is a pretty unusual problem. Gut tells me there will be a reason. Everything else was textbook. The old clutch plate was new. As was the pressure plate having only done a thousand k. I set the free play on the pin to mercedes recommend 2mm when I put it on. My mercedes parts guy here in nz looked at my slave and thinks it's aftermarket. Do I ditch it and go oem?
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The length of travel of the piston in the slave cylinder is linked to the amount of fluid pushed in by the master cylinder. So no matter the length, the important factor here is the relation between the master cylinder diameter and the one of the slave cylinder. The bigger the diameter of the master cylinder, the more fluid it will be sending. The smaller the diameter of the slave cylinder, the more the piston will travel and push on the pressure plate. Diameters are noted in the workshop manual. You should check them both.
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Andy, Earlier before all of this, You mentioned bearing noise when pushing the clutch in. What does the throw out bearing look/feel like?
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The clutch on our cars is self adjusting and once you get the free play set up correctly it will always stay adjusted until the clutch plate wears out. On a mechanical linkage set up ( like a 190SL ) the free play needs to be adjusted once in a while to take up plate wear.
I know this info isn't part of this thread but I feel it's noteworthy.
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The clutch on our cars is self adjusting and once you get the free play set up correctly it will always stay adjusted until the clutch plate wears out.
What you have indicated above is not correct, the early system (the type with the return spring) does require adjustment on the slave cylinder through out its life, failure to do so will result in a slipping (knackered) clutch.
The later version (from 67/68?) does not have a return spring and is self adjusting. There is a procedure with the later system that enables you to ascertain when disc replacement is required.
You may like to amend your post.
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I'm not sure about that. I agree that there's a place to adjust the free play to get your initial set up on a 230SL. I've seen a number of 230SL cars that didn't have a spring on them and they seemed to work OK so that's where I'm coming from. I assume the spring is there to pull the throw out bearing back away from the fingers on the pressure plate and may well pull the piston to the bottom of the cylinder but is it really needed?
Wouldn't the slave piston on a 230SL act in the same manner as that on a 280SL? Free play is set at the clutch pedal eccentric and on the push pin on a 230 but not a 280. Once the system is properly bled and adjusted a small amount of brake fluid will enter the system to take up for wear. The piston in the the slave cylinder will move out in the cylinder and come to rest in the desired position ready for the next shift you make and is therefore self adjusting.
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On models with a return spring on the slave, The fork will always be pulled back to the same position regardless of wear so on those you would need to adjust the eccentric bolt at the pedal. That is once the slave cylinder pin has been adjusted properly, with the piston at the bottom of the bore, It will always end up at the same place so no additional adjustment of that area will be required.
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TS, I still maintain that on the early type slave cylinder with return spring you have to adjust the free play at the slave cylinder during the life of the clutch assembly for the following reason (or you will have slippage) -
With the clutch system at rest and with the return spring in position the slave cylinder piston is at the bottom of the cylinder and will go no further down the bore, you then remove the spring, push the clutch operating fork until the throw-out bearing comes into contact with the pressure plate fingers (it is worth noting that you cannot see this visually you have to do it by feel), you then adjust the length of the operating rod to give you the required free play (approx.: 1/8 inch, the correct figure will be in the workshop manual), you then replace the return spring.
With this work completed you will have a small gap between the throw-out bearing and the pressure plate fingers .
In service when the clutch is in use the friction material will wear and the gap between the pressure plate fingers and the release bearing will decrease, eventually the fingers will come into contact with the throw-out bearing, this will result in the clutch starting to slip and if the push rod is not adjusted the clutch friction disc will burn out. So it is very important that at the recommended service intervals this free play is checked.
The later type without the return spring is different there is no adjustment on the operating rod, the slave cylinder's pistons position in the bore is reliant on the length of the operating rod, with the later system it should be noted that when the piston is in the slave cylinder bore it is not at the bottom of the slave cylinder and also the throw-out bearing is in light contact with the diaphram type pressure plate.
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Eric is right.
You will find the clutch free play instructions in the 230SL Owner's Manual, maintenance section.
The push rod should be 2 piece, a solid rod drilled and threaded with a bolt to adjust the effective length and of course lock nut.
naj
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I see what you mean. I was thinking about it backwards.
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So, if you remove the spring it should respond in the same way the 280SL unit works. Right or wrong?
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Wrong
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OK.... Why?
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The return spring is fitted to return the piston to its resting position at the bottom of the slave cylinder when the clutch is not in use ie when cruising , this will ensure the gap remains constant between the throw-out bearing and the pressure plate fingers, this results in there being no contact between the fingers and the bearing(the bearing is stationary)
As I am sure you are aware there is a residual pressure existing in the hydraulic system, if there was not the rubber seals would not function.
If you were to remove the return spring this residual pressure would allow the piston to move forward forcing the clutch fork to move forward (plus normal driving forces will allow the throw-out bearing to move forward ), this would in turn allow the throw-out bearing to come into contact with the pressure plate release fingers, the bearing and the fingers are not designed to be in constant contact and would accelerate wear on both items.
The later diaphragm pressure plate has a flat surface that the release bearing can come into contact with, both items are designed and manufactured so they can be operated for extended periods in LIGHT contact with each other (when the clutch is not in use ie when cruising), not so the early type with fingers, if you were to operate the early system in this way you will get premature failure.
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Can anyone tell me the torque setting on the bolts that secure the clutch pressure plate.
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Hi,
I didn't find any torque settings for the clutch pressure plate neither in the Mercedes table books nor in the workshop manual ("just tighten"). Maybe this general info will help you: http://www.torcup.de/index.php?id=104.
...WRe
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No torque spec, as stated above.
Going back to the original problem with the clutch, Is it possible that the orientation of the pressure plate was installed differently then when it was removed? There was a question above about one of the fingers not looking correct. 25-1/3 of the BBB shows that an adjustment of the 3 clutch fingers is needed when installing the pressure plate. Is it possible one of these was too tight and broke from the stress of not being even with the other 2, or reaching the end of its travel? Attached is the page out of the book. See the "Note" section. This is just a thought.
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Finally made the big push and bolted everything back up and readjusted the clutch. Very stiff and sore after four hours under the car lying on my back. Spent quite a bit of time adjusting everything this time. Last time this gear was slammed back in under a haze of excruciating pain. This time a bit more care was taken especially around driveshaft alignment, center hanging bearing, exhaust pipes and off course the clutch. Results were fantastic. It drives much smoother and is free of a vibration and clunk it had before which I think was the exhaust position issue. Might take it to a big classic car show here in auckland on today if the weather is nice. Thank you all for your tech advice over the past month around the clutch. It certainly has given me the motivation to get it going again.
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Awesome day. The 113 behaved impeccably. A bit nervous with minimal testing. Attracted lots of attention in the car park which was nice. The Mercedes club had a good display.
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Nice set-up on that track car. Transaxle seems to be a Citroen D series. Engine looks to have an ingenious turbo set-up.
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A 113 was featured. Nice color in anthracite and red interior. One of drmb's beautiful restos.
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GGR. Was talking to the owner. Amazing history. Was raced in the Australian gp in the early sixties with a mercedes 2.2 straight six four bearing crank. He has since swapped it for a 280s w108 engine. Supercharged of course. Fired it up for me. Doesn't sound much like a pagoda.
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More pics of nice looking German tin. Perhaps next pub should be down here ;)
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GGR. Was talking to the owner. Amazing history. Was raced in the Australian gp in the early sixties with a mercedes 2.2 straight six four bearing crank. He has since swapped it for a 280s w108 engine. Supercharged of course. Fired it up for me. Doesn't sound much like a pagoda.
Supercharged then, not turbocharged. They used an FI intake manifold on a carbed block. Nice mix of parts!
From the picture you posted I can confirn the transaxle is from a Citroen Traction or early ID. It is a 4 speed (they later existed in 5 speed as used in Maserati Meraks, some Lotus etc.). It is turning the other way round in that set up, as it is normally fitted in the front of the Traction with the engine rotating opposite direction. I am currently doing a similar set up as I am adapting a Mazda rotary engine on one of these transmissions, and I will then put in back in a Citronen DS. I will have to turn the whole drive train by 180 degrees (putting the engine in front) as it rotates the other way round, and differential cannot be swapped directions on these transmissions. The good thing is that it will free a lot of space in the passenger compartment as normally the engine is kind of in between the legs of the two front passengers.
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I am currently doing a similar set up as I am adapting a Mazda rotary engine on one of these transmissions, and I will then put in back in a Citronen DS.
That sounds like a hilarious project! Citroen DS is one of the most comfortable cars ever. The original engine is a bit rough, though. Very interesting to see (hear) if the rotary engine can make that car even smoother.
(I have a CX Diesel Turbo II...)
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Hi Andy.. has been a long time. Last saw your Pagoda on Viber when u had finished it and have been dying to see it in the flesh as it's a real credit to your dedication and skills! .Sadly lost some of my Viber contacts including yours due phone change. Also haven't been home a lot due overseas most of the time.. Must have missed you at this year's Ellerslie concourse.. have sold my 280CE but have temporarily joined this SL forum to finally get a hold of you. Drove to your place today but no one home. I bought another car from California but will tell u all about it when u contact me on 021 1437780. All the best, Pete Wist :)
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Pete, it's best to send Andy a PM with your number rather than publish it on an open forum.
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Went out on the weekend on my first top down car Club event. Most of the cars were modern stock but there were a handful of old beautiful girls. Was great driving in convoy. My little girl went beautifuly. Starting to build up confidence in her now :)
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Finally faced up to a problem I have been dreading since I put the car back on the road.... the brakes. Am sure the booster is shot. Hissing continuously somewhere down near the pedals when the brake pedal is depressed. I am almost certain it shouldn't be doing this. Can someone please confirm and if I am correct let me know what my options are. I probably don't want a second hand booster with a high risk of introducing the same issue.
Also am interested in everyone's thoughts on the early inline water trap. I took this out and replaced it with a W108 one way valve hoping it might have a beneficial influence on things. Nada.
Does anyone know if the early W108 booster is the same as the 113. I looks identical.
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Hi Andy,
No hissing from my brake booster. Can't help you on your other questions unfortunately.
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.../...interested in everyone's thoughts on the early inline water trap.../...
What "thoughts" do you seek? Trap vas introduced since some condensation may happen in the hose. Has nothing to do with the one way valve. Both are needed. White side on valve towards booster.
Does anyone know if the early W108 booster is the same as the 113
Yes, identical
/Hans S
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Booster for R.H. drive 113 is a one off and not the same as anything else,it has a ball end on the push rod not a yoke.I have been looking for a new one for a customer for the past 12 months without success.
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Andy,
If you can hear a hissing then your booster is definitely leaking. To verify you can disconnect and block the vacuum hose from the manifold, start the engine and see if your hissing is gone.
What's often not understood is that a failed booster is actually an inlet manifold leak, just the same as if the inlet manifold gasket were leaking, and you will have a lean mixture as a result. (unless of course someone has richened it to compensate and then when you fix the booster you find that the engine is running rich. Some people may notice an improvement in starting as a result!
I can strip the boosters and assemble them with the original hardware.
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Thanks guys. Hope this isn't going to turn into another major. Really want to get out and enjoy the car this summer and am hoping I can afford a new one if available or have this one repaired.
The unit is so so hard to get out on a right hand drive car I want to do it right the first time. I think from memory you have to take off the inlet manifold to get it out. I distinctly remember the grief I had putting it in. Outside the rubix cube dash I would put this one up there. If anyone else knows an easy way to get it out I am all ears.
The booster seems to hold vacuum. I can apply vacuum with my mouth (no grubby comments please) and feel it holding the vacuum. Its only when the brake is pressed that it leaks.
Lloyds comments worry me. If he has been trying to source one for a year unsuccessfully I feel I am in for a world of hurt. Can they be rebuilt and if so who can do it? Bear in mind this is a RHD unit. Many of the comments on boosters seem to pertain to LHD.
As for the water trap I am wondering why this didn't feature at all on the W108's which effectively have an identical booster. My thinking is that with the additional breaks in the pipe between the inlet manifold and the booster to accommodate this it just introduced additional points of failure in regards to vacuum leaks. Was this trap on all 113 models or just the early 230s.
So until I get this sorted my car is parked up. Too dangerous to drive without the vacuum assisted system.
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Andy,
Just providing you my Booster experience from a couple years ago. (LHD).
1. My late 250sl has the same water trap as your photo.
2. My 1971 280sl does not have the water trap.
3. When my 250sl booster was failing (clear and sudden hard braking needed) no leak was noted until the brake pedal was pressed. At first I did not notice RPM rise due to the extra air, but watching it carefully noticed a slight RPM rise.
4. I had my unit rebuilt in California, since my car was there. Actually drove the booster to their shop as I like to see real work going on. They repaired in a couple of days with whatever new parts they needed to put inside. It's a shop that does hundreds of Booster rebuilds a month as I learned that many shops send their boosters there. Would you not have such a rebuild shop in your area so you would not need to hunt for a RHD unit?
Best of luck
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Thanks kampala,
Took your advice and rang around every brake booster repair company in NZ this morning. The advice/opinion I got varied hugely from throw it away to its entirely repairable, send it down.
I was hoping someone might have old stock diaphragms and be able to do a full and comprehensive service but no joy on that front.
I found a shop in the South Island who did immediately inspire me with confidence. He bombarded me with a swag of questions and has diagnosed it as a rear seal failure rather than a diaphragm. I hope he is right. The key symptom being its venting strongly out the back of the unit into the cabin. If he has the parts it will be 150NZD to repair. Finger crossed.
Kampala, do your know what they did to your booster and how much it cost. If they have the parts and this option falls through I am prepared to send it over to your guys.
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Andy,
Here's the thread. Cost was about US$ 200 back then. Their info is in the thread. Since I had mine done, I have read others have had issues with breakage in shipping. You may want to search for what broke.
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=17598.msg122125#msg122125
I would seriously avoid shipping it all the way to California.
I don't really know what they replaced. They told me at the time, but not knowing what was inside the booster it did not register.
best,
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Hi Andy,
When I had my engine bay resprayed a while back the guys who took our the brake booster off said it was full of oil and asked me if was experiencing brake problems - but the brakes seem fine. The day after they gave me the car back (after putting it all together) the brakes seized and I couldn't even drive it.
My mechanic who specialises in old MB's had the booster removed and sent away for rebuilding. They took a little while to source the parts but I believe they found compatible parts from other models. Not all that expensive in the end including the labour to remove and reinstall. Been great ever since (better than before).
Rob
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It could have been as simple as the push pin adjuster. I've seen where I had to turn the eccentric a small amount to release brake fluid pressure.
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Thanks Dan - I wouldn't doubt that for a minute.
When it comes to enjoying these cars - I consider myself to be an expert. Alas my skill level ends there. :-[
When it comes to repairing them - 99% of the time I solve that by opening my wallet to trusted people.
Thankfully, after opening my wallet countless times - I now spend most of my time enjoying them :)
Rob
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Thanks guys. Tried all the basics and other good suggestion you guys have made. No joy .
Anyone got a spare rhd booster they want to sell
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Andy,
So what ended up happening with the booster?
You had checked your fuel injectors at one point but only talked about one of them. How did the other spray patterns look in your tester?
Thanks for chronicling everything. That is a beautiful car you've made.
Kevin
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Thanks Kevin. The booster issue is still with me. I have been driving the car heaps as the weather is so beautiful at the moment. I have got used to having no booster. Hopefully at some point soon I will get back onto it.
As for the injectors I had them all out and tested. They all seemed fine. What I did cock up was not torqueing up the injector non return valves properly on the top of the injector. I am almost certain now that was my starting issue. Fuel on one or two of the cylinders was leaking back with gravity past the valve and emptying the injector pipe.
I gave them all a bit of a tweak and the problem reduced 80%. Early 230s with the non ball bearing values may be a bit more susceptible. I am being very careful around these values now as I believe they are not.
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Andy, if it's of any interest I now have boosters in stock. Shipping might be expensive though.
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Hi Andy
I replaced the brake booster on my RHD 250sl. Cut off the fork and attached an engineered ball ended piece.
See the photo.
Bali
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Mercedes New Zealand asked me if they could use my cars for an open day. Was a great honor and was fantastic to have my cars parked in the main display foyer alongside a brand new 500sl. Lots of people through who were drawn to the old cars especially the 230sl. Definitely the star of the show. All the staff including seemed to love having the novelty of old tin in thier showroom. I think the brand new fire breathing SLS Amg that was kicked out to make way for the dainty 113 was a tad put out :)
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looks Fantastic Andy,
Congratulations,
Paul (the other Pagoda & i Car owner !)
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Andy you and the car deserve it, well done ;)
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Andy
Looks fantastic. Well done.
Garry
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Indeed! Wonderful, just plain wonderful.
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That's very nice of you guys. Thanks :)
Certainly given me a bit of motivation to get going again. Lots still to do with the car. I gave been staring at a gold coloured hard upper now for far to long.
I hope you guys have all been well and enjoying your cars. Sorry for my absence. Things are certainly looking much more Rosie.
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Some truthful advice never repeated enough
http://spicercollectorcars.com/2017/05/18/3-keys-to-a-successful-w113-280sl-mercedes-benz-restoration/
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Dont like vanity plates but these came up cheap as chips. What say you guys
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Those are awesome! It would take about a microsecond or two for me to decide if I had a 230 SL (but I am admittedly a fan of vanity plates - I have VN8E PL8 on my E400)
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Married..... the new wife loves the 113!
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Congrats and all the best in your life's new chapter together. I mean three of you. For now. ;)
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Congratulations,
and we wish you many happy times and trips together
Paul
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Great news - Congratulations!!! :)
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Congrats - I don't know about down under but here in Canada open liquor in a car is illegal. It doesn't look like you are driving on a road, rather on someone's lawn so I guess you may be ok.
Remember to keep the missus happy and you will have a happy life - cleaning your wheels with her wedding dress may not be the best start though.
I'll hoist one for you this weekend.
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Congratulations Andy, Glad it all finally went ok for you.
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New stable mates. Very very low km 2008 slk200. The new wife's wheels... good disease already rubbing off.
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Congratulations Andy.
Like many we have been following your journey , your ups and downs since 2013.
Your recent good luck has put a big smile on my face this morning.
I do like a happy ending.
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hi andy ,
I have restored 108,107 and 280sl pagoda , I found the pagoda much easier and last longer than the rest , because no computer technology interfering in the parts .
good luck ….
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I got a call from MB New Zealand last week asking if they could use my car for a fashion show. They threw in a few tickets for myself and the new squeeze to attend. Never have been to anything like it before being a total fashion ignoramus. Was blown away by the scale of it with hundreds of people attending and humbled with my little 230sl sitting all alone in the middle of the runway all lit up in lights.
https://www.facebook.com/MercedesBenzNZ/videos/1787885591297245/
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ATTA BOY!! Very cool.
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Fantastic!
Did I learn the new English expression: "the new squeeze"? Does it mean "the new partner"?
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Hey Andy, I missed your post from back in March.
Congratulations on your new Squeeze (Yes Pawel, it means new partner). You didn't waste any time did you you old scallywag!
Colin
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Hi guys, great to here from a few familiar faces. Stick thanks for that and yes I didn't muck around. Life is too short... and into the bargain the new wife loves Mercedes. Just got her a mint little slk 200 R171 which looks lovely along side the 230.
The designer that used my car contacted me to say that I can have all the professional photos that my car featured in. Are you guys interested or all fashioned showed out? I can never get enough of sexy woman in and around pagodas :)
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Andy ....?
:D 8)
Perfect !
8) :D
Let the photos come!
All best to Auckland,
Achim
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I never was that great at mind teasers. That's certainly what has been thrown at me with the removal of the brake booster on my right hand drive pagoda.
I am almost certain that this is even more challenging by a country mile than any under dash repair that you might mention
I now remember when I took the car apart hitting the same problem. Even getting the securing nuts off the brake booster to free it from the aluminium spacer block is an absolute nightmare. But then you discover that there is not enough clearance to slip booster off past inlet manifold.
So then I decided to strip down the manifold and try and take that off around the booster just to discover exact same problems clearing the inlet manifold studs with the manifold interfering with the booster.
I remember when I took the car apart now having the same problems and resolving it by unbolting the engine from the transmission and crane up the engine to a point where I could slip the manifolds off.
Surely this can't be the only way to do this. My only other thoughts are to undo the engine mounts, which is a job unto itself, and try and raise the engine high enough to get the clearance I need. Even then I don't think there's going to be enough clearance.
I decided last weekend that I'd finally have a huge push to fixing all the issues up with the old girl so I can take it to a car show in a months time. the brake booster was the biggest issue to me. I'm certain that the diaphragm and it has blown as it's hissing like a snake out the rear of the booster every time the brake pedal is pushed. Also it seems that is absolutely no assistance from the booster which makes driving it a little bit scary.
I'm also wondering if I can swap the booster from my w108 into the 113 just to get it going and then sort the 108 out later as it has far more room to work in.
The 108 booster looks identical and measures up exactly the same. It's an early booster out of a 67 250 s. I know soon after that Mercedes changed booster in the 108. So I'm wondering if the early booster is identical to what's in the pagoda. The only difference might be if it's got a ball or a fork. If anyone knows I'd be most appreciative. Otherwise I will pull her booster out of the w108 and eyeball them both side by side.
What would be great is if someone with access to the epc could do a bit of research and see if they can find any mention of an early right-hand drive booster for the 113. If they find it is it possible to cross reference the part number and see if that is common to any other Mercedes models.
I think this is such a tricky little problem that it's worth me documenting it in here just in case anyone else hits the same issues with their right hand drive.
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.../...I'm also wondering if I can swap the booster from my w108 into the 113.../... I'm wondering if the early booster is identical to what's in the pagoda.../...
On a LHD W113 Pagoda or 108, the boosters are the same. In the Pagoda, there is an intermediate bracket with a lever arm. The booster mounts onto this bracket.
See https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28312.msg204580#msg204580 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28312.msg204580#msg204580)
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Hi. My bracket is much shorter than the one you show. Specific to RHD to avoid inteterance with the inlet manifold. And also instead of the fork you can see in your photo the rhd has a ball at the end of the rod that mates onto a cup on the pedal assembly. Once I get it all apart I will take some detailed pics. The big question is if my W108 booster also has the ball. If it doesn't its not going to be able to be used.
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Hi. My bracket is much shorter than the one you show. Specific to RHD.../...
Sorry I should have written that the info I provide is for LHD... I'm not so familiar with RHD.
I do have a NOS T51 brake booster which has a threaded "pin" instead of a fork, see picture. Is this what fits RHD Pagoda cars?
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That's OK. Any help is appreciated and the more info we get will make it much easier for the next poor soul who attempts this removal.
I don't believe that the booster you show us correct either. It should have quite a pronounced ball on the end of the rod rather than a threaded rod.
I am really keen to get the part number and see what the epc has to say about compatibility with other models. Anyone have access to this?
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I’m currently in Switzerland but from memory I believe the part number starts with “113” which usually means it’s a part specifically for that model. I will check when I get home.
Incidentally, you wouldn’t be the first person to ship their booster to me from Australia to have it overhauled.
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Hi Colin. I suspect you are on the money and the 108 unit will be identical with exception to not having a ball.
If that's the case I will have no option but to repair.
Before I do that I still have to get the thing out of the car. Have you got any idea how to do it without removing the engine?
My back is incredibly bad again at the moment and I am not wanting to get under the car to jack things up if I can help it. I suspect the only way it's possible is to release the gearbox mounts and tilt the engine as far back on its mounts as it will go to get the manifold off.
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Spent this morning just staring wondering what Mercedes were thinking about.
I am now sure that that the only way to either remove the booster or the inlet manifold is to remove the exhaust manifold, release the engine mounts and then jack the engine up.
The space available to get any tools in is absurb. I think Mercedes only ran with the bellowed extractors for less than a year. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the factory workshop when am early right hand drive with a faulty booster came in. Can anyone fill in the gaps here with suitable German swear words.
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Not sure if my old mundane 113 restoration posts will interest anyone anymore.... there seems to be much better entertainment to be found on other threads.
Brake boosters aren't that interesting but I really want to put this one up in case some other poor bugger has to go through the frustration I have just endured.
So I finally managed to get my booster out today and as suspected I had to not only remove the inlet manifold but also tilt the entire engine forward on the engine mounts to get the required clearance past the booster. I ended up just dropping the gearbox engine mount center nuts and jacking the back of the gearbox up really gently to avoid damage to the engine mounts and also the exhaust which was still bolted to the block.
This gave me literally about 3mm of clearance to slip off the manifold. Even then I had to take a few fittings out of the manifold to sneak it past. I also found that the inlet manifold was binding up on the exhaust manifold which was still bolted firmly to the head with only the very two outmost nuts. So I had to also remove these and slide the inlet and exhaust manifolds off simultaneously.
The joy..
With the booster out I was able to compare it side to side with a T51 booster I picked up second hand. I am almost certain it came out of a W108.
Its really interesting to eyeball them together. Other than the fork of the W108 unit the only difference is the thickness. The W108 being about 40mm thinner. All the other dimensions are identical with all the mounting points in exactly the same location.
The reduction of 40mm in thickness means that I wouldn't not have any issues getting this booster in an out with the manifolds in place. Quite an appealing notion after the torment I have been through over the past couple of days.
The reduction of thickness is down to the new booster having a convex outer cover (see photos) rather than concave of the old original booster.
So my first thought was to modify the new W108 booster by either cutting and welding a ball on where the fork is or by making up an oversize sleeve, cutting the fork and slipping the sleeve over. I took it down to my engineer mate to chew the fat. Long story short either way would work but both approached would require some dis-assembly of the booster to expose the shaft. I went away to think about it.
Then I decided to ring around again and have managed to find a really old school guy who has worked on these booster before. He wants me to take both of them in for testing on Monday and is really confident if the new one comes up good then there is a high chance that we can simply swap the 113 rod over into the W108 body and be good to go with a booster that will actually fit the car well.
He was quite taken back when I asked if I could come and watch him and take photos. So that's going to be Monday. I cant find another thread with disassembly photos so this may be of interest to someone in here especially those who have right hand drive cars.
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This bonnet is not so easy to repair, I guess.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UwJ15KIHUvN75PjwjKv_g3ebgeu5-FErw4enuJmy7ADPbkAgTqyNQNXbAyhA8miQh05b3RQUQDcbfzVAqKIRbzwPgPAP0L8yqeO75R9UE4ePwVkGZlhkcHtboteM9nhA3HeQ9vjsydeAY2uCC1iTpswEonjLxjnxB1cVeY8Ygw9MOkutYWKyCWolUzJ-MKdNT57QeNWC2nCy6wP5x2Sp7DUZte2MxgwzA2nJ5xMzRKRyBaH-7Spc9Qzf6cJorWFMnK5G0IDHrvnesqdHdFVGsiZnLV8D0qnofi-XDuFFCSkD8BCOO_ujdOWKg5SiTG3WWrSUQH8xiEnD9VTAV9XG80QEyoRC_oJrA0E5cWohhi6sR7obHOl13GKkZMqb3Gk4dTUy6yUvj6iz3P8JZWVKZwJcGxV0VyN-3E738ELTjAAbRS2MxD1WjEo3EYoOSpox1-1-dGtNiCohbS16nhQIG5Xa3jEIAWeE2JUsrjEHUANCaKpcjzoum1UiAQRT3LX8kowaHnNlIPFV2fWRNyuUamqlt3tQpdH4uzAk6d5_Sq-Vq5wu43Ry3gPPRQFBnU5XW29uytcQVbDhKMlyWlKzTbOOHlqNvk4xo8SyEn9aZxQMsVZlfabAK4o3YssaxYTvik-9dejO1H6hkvPH2wsSeAz0Olbvzanvi4Wjo23UD6psASp_cOZMTB6JR47AqeQaBtuN0eVMyQETcxn2-2WYJkd6=w1199-h671-no)
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Huh? ???
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My first suggestion would be to get rid of the dancing bears. They can wreak havoc. 😜😜😜😜🤪🤪🤪🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂
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Huh? ???
Double Huh.??? Has this forum gone to the bears?
EeVeeWee did you mean to post in here ?
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.../...The reduction of thickness is down to the new booster having a convex outer cover (see photos) rather than concave of the old original booster.../...
Andy you have made a nice comparison illustration showing the difference between the first type T51/200 brake booster (installed from 1963 to Oct 1968) compared to the later type T51 booster (Late 1968 to 1971).
See for instance https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28312.msg204580#msg204580 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=28312.msg204580#msg204580)
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Double Huh.??? Has this forum gone to the bears?
EeVeeWee did you mean to post in here ?
May be I didn't understand the purpose of this topic?
"Restoration Difficulty Level" I thought it was about the difficulties you experience during restoration?
If not, just ignore my post.
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Hi EeVeeWee,
This topic is specifically about Andy's (epic) restoration. Completely understand your interpretation though, given the topic title. If you read right through the thread you will pick up some good tips. Just as we are benefiting from your posts!
Your trunk lid looks terrible. I agree that will be extremely difficult to repair - better to look for a good used one, there are plenty out there. If you find a good straight one you will need to do some building and filing around the edges to get the gaps right but I think it would be easier than repairing this one. Did you say the sandblasters gave the front hood the same treatment???
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EeVeeWee it's OK. I understand the confusion now. You restoration is beautiful. I have been watching it with great pleasure over the past few months. Please keep the posts coming. I am sure you will end up with a beauty.
Thanks to you to mbze. I had read that link before. I really want to get inside this booster and take a look at what's broken and hopefully document a successful repair.
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T51 Brake booster sectional drawing showing what goes on inside
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Thanks you mbze. I will study that tonight. Quite exicted to see if I can swap my early T51 RHD ball push rod for a latter T51 fork equivilent. I think if its possible then it will certainly help out any RHD owner in the same position. There are so many parts that are like rocking horse **** for the rhd 113 that any little **** bits that get you back on the road are like absoulte gold. Happy to share where applicable.
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I had to make a special press for assembly/disassembly. Once you get it apart do not be surprised to find the Bakelite component is broken and your booster rendered scrap.
I am working on having these Bakelite posts (specific to RHD) remanufactured in stainless steel.
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Thanks Stick. I am hoping that the Baker light in one of the boosters is sound. If it isn't then I will have to go down the path you mention of manufacturing on. I have already spoken with my Barry from South Auckland forgings who has access to a 3d scanner and a 3d printer capable of popping out objects in with titanium or stainless steel so always an option I guess. Will keep you guys posted. I really only have till the 3rd of March to get this done so the clock is most definitely ticking. Stick do you have any photo of the baker light to give me an idea of what to expect. I was imagining the hub of the diaphragm was baker light not sure what you mean about the post specific to RHD. Have you got one in the workshop cracked open by any chance.
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Bugga. The second new booster tested up faulty. Back to the drawing board....
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Andy
Not sure if this helps but this is the part no of the ATE booster fitted to my 280. I know it’s not the original as was fitted +20 years.
Peter
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Thanks Peter. Really appreciate your help. I googled the hell out of those numbers but didn't come up with much. I still think they are so rare that I am going to struggle to get much info on the Web. Next step is to pull it apart. It appears my diaphragm is intact as the booster holds pressure so it's looking as if it's the relief valve. I am hoping I can get a kit to repair this and perhaps the seals in. This part of the booster are standard or used across a wide range of ate boosters. Anyone have any ideas.
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Andy, not sure if I am helping and probably you have seen it all, but seeing your struggle I thought I quickly share - the Ate Classic catalogue excerpt.
There is also R107 there.
The whole catalogue is 11.9MB (all car brands, all of Mercedes models), so I cannot send it here.
Maybe it is of some value.
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Hi,
here some inside pics: http://w113.eu/geschlossen/Reparaturen/Bremskraftverstaerker%20Mercedes%20Pagode%20W113.htm.
...WRe
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ATE do not sell the diaphragms for these boosters.
There's a very high probability that when you get the booster apart you will find the central Bakelite post is damaged.
I am currently in the process of having these Bakelite posts remanufactured in stainless steel.
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Seeking an working early rhd 113 brake booster
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Oh my! Truer pictures I have not seen!
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https://www.powerbrakes.com.au/list-of-brake-doctor-restoration-services
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Seeking an working early rhd 113 brake booster
Wunderbar!
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Andy
Sorry I was of no help. As you can imagine there is a keen interest here to see how you get on.
Andy / Stick
There is a company here in the UK that restores brake servos called Past Parts. Their stuff is mostly British. I have used them on my Elan +2 and very happy. Not sure if you know them or if they are worth talking to for future use or collaboration?
Peter
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I restore these servos in-house using a special press. It took me several years to identify a source for the diaphragms and sorry chaps but I will not be divulging that source for obvious commercial reasons.
The only part I can't get but am working on is the Bakelite post.
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Thanks guys. Keep the ideas rolling in. Shvegel I have contacted the outfit you found am awaiting a response. I am still listening very carefully to stick who had undoubtedly done quite a few of these. Nothing beats experience in my book and I am preparing myself for the worst with unobtamium parts that have to be manufactured by a skillful and expensive hand. I want to put out to the universe the notion of restoring a rhd 113 as being akin to sawing off your right arm very slowly with a blunt pocket knife. You lhd guys don't know how lucky you have it. Can anyone put a percentage figure on the additional sale price a rhd 113 owner should ask for the rarity and suffering involved over a lhd. Has this ever been discussed in here before?
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Stick, have you got any pics of the post. I will have mine split open by Monday but am keen yo have any pics to avoid damage on the way in.
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Stick,
That’s good to hear, I now know where to come should the inevitable happen.
Peter
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Here's a drawing and a 3d printed prototype next to a broken bakelight original.
3D printing is no good for a final product but is great to confirm the drawing works.
However, machining this part from solid is very difficult if indeed it is at all possible so I'm looking at making it from two components.
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Stick, I have access to a 3d titanium prin ter which can also print in stainless steel. Do you want to investigate that possibility. I am happy to ask if we can get a couple of prototypes built. The company owe me a favor or two.
I am also interested to understand why that part is specific to RHD. I would have thought the fork or the ball rod would have slipped into into that component interchangeably.
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Andy
Forgive me if you know this already, and this may be a red herring.
If you have a copy of "Laurence Meredith, Original Mercedes SL, The Restorers guide to 300SL, 190SL, 230/250/280SL models to 1971”, there are a couple of interesting pictures.
For want of a description,
Your 230SL has a Long body Booster with recess for the master cylinder.
My 280SL has a Short body with no recess for the master cylinder, see picture.
In LM's book the reference photos are the other way around:
Page 82 shows a 230SL with a Short body with no recess,
Page 86 shows a 280SL with a Long body with recess for the master cylinder.
This sort of indicates both our cars have the wrong ones, and could explain the issues you faced with clearance.
Perhaps others can comment on this?
Out if interest, my booster was replaced in 1983 at cost of £147 so they were expensive then!
Peter
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Here is mine on a RHD 65 230sl
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Gary,
Your picture supports that Andy one is the right type.
Definitely a blind alley on my behalf.
Peter
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.../... a copy of "Laurence Meredith, Original Mercedes SL, The Restorers guide to 300SL, 190SL, 230/250/280SL models to 1971”.../...
In LM's book the reference photos are the other way around:.../...
I'm sorry to have to point out, Mr Meredith is not quite the expert... That ref book is riddled with misinformation and faults, we counted at least one major flaw on each page of the book. Indeed, you mention one of them yourself... ;)
So, instead I suggest you use the list of changes for W113, published in Pagoda News on this Forum.
And of course the very excellent Engelen book "Vom Barock zur Pagode"
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I agree with Hans, I would not put too much faith in the Merridith book. Interesting book lots of good stuff but not a good reference manual.
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Stick, I have access to a 3d titanium prin ter which can also print in stainless steel. Do you want to investigate that possibility. I am happy to ask if we can get a couple of prototypes built. The company owe me a favor or two.
My information is that 3d printed parts, because of the way they are formed. are not good for use where the part slides through a lip seal.
In any case, I am concerned about litigation in the event of a failure so will be happier having it machined from solid.
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Hi Stick. I am taking the broken baker light out today to discuss exactly that with the engineer. The brake guys have already given me their opinion which is the inner and outer surfaces of the hub shaft have to have a polished surface for the rubber internal and external seal to mate with. These area are easily accessible once the part is mounted in a laythe and can be machined back to a polished surface. In regards to having it fail because its printed I have been told the resultant mass has a very predictable strength pattern and would be much stronger than baker light. I do take your point though stick and will be discussing it with Barry later today. I have mine open and apart now and my baker light is broken in exactly the same manner yours has gone. It looks like it's also been broken for a long time. Will take photos latter. Thanks everyone for their input here. Keep it coming.
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Stick you got me thinking about Baker lite again. What exactly is it. Fascinating history. The worlds first plastic... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite
So the question here is if I do use a printed stainless or titanium will it be as reliable, strong and long lasting.
The Baker lite I have dealt with in the past has done incredibly well considering its plastic but has still failed when around heat and corrosive liquid such as oil and probably brake fluid.
So it's probably safe to say that stainless or titanium are much more capable of withstanding these two elements long term.
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Spent this morning cleaning all the internal booster parts and seeing exactly what I need to repair it.
There are signs the booster has been apart before for repairs. All the rubber seal are too nice for being 50+ years old.
One of the two rubber diaphrams has a tear in it so I will need to source a new one and the central bakerlight post that mates the fabbled rhd ball end rod to the master cylinder transfer rod has crack right through. This will more than likely be where I am venting vacumn as the central cavity of this bakerlight components are obviously a channel for vacumn.
I did however manage to get a tantalizingly similar bakerlight part. It was manufactured by PBR in Australia which may be a source of the correct part. Will investigate. I dont think I will be able to use it as the rhd ball end rod sits in one end of this assembly and it seems to have the wrong inside diameter (too big) to accept the rod. So as Stick eluded to this bakerlight component may well be rhd specific which is really bad news.
Now I have everything cleaned off I am off to talk to my mate who is a full time cnc machinist and CAD designer to see if he can quickly wack up a 3d model of the broken part.
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Can anyone tell me where I might source a new diaphragm from. Either genuine ATE or aftermarket. There are two in the unit, the one I need is the outer one that sits closest to the master cylinder.
My one has torn in the crease which is apparantely really common as that is the area which moves the most I guess. It could have been damaged also taking the unit apart but it looks historic to me.
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I thought it would also be useful to throw up a couple of close up pictures of the rhd ball rod as well.
It is really unique. Not only the ball end but also the opposite end of the rod that moves inside the baker lite has a really unique pivoted coupling peened onto it to take up and lateral movement of the input rod. As the pedal assembly rotates the engineering of the assembly cant obviously produce a perfect strait line motion bearing down on the input pin. Probably a 5 degree arc has to be accepted by the input pin so it has to pivot.
I was thinking of remanufacturing this pin to suit a LHD unit but now feel that reproducing the baker lite might be lesser of the two evils. Would be really interested to pull apart the left hand unit and see exactly how that is set up. I have a second booster to return after it was tested faulty as well. I might ask if I can have it for a reduced price just to go through this exercise.
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Andy, I can sell you the diaphragms but as you’re finding out, diaphragms are not the only issue.
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Stick as they say... I am now committed. I just have to do what I can within my budget to fix it. Sometimes that works out, other times you end up more out of pocket but at least this little project is getting my appitite back for restoration work and I am learning along the way. I think the only bit that's going to slow me down is the baker lite. I know the rest will be available somewhere. My diaphragms are both in great condition other than one having a tear. I am wondering if I can repair that one using the same vulcanising technique as you repair an inner tube....
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I'm telling you, there's more to this than meets the eye..... :)
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Throw the dog a bone then stick.
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.../...Fascinating history. The worlds first plastic...
Came to think of Hoffman in "the Graduate":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk)
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You must love old movies Hans. Never seen that one before. Wish my dad gave me advice like that when I was younger. If he had I wouldn't have to fix my pagoda myself!
I'm any event I moved my little project on a bit. Sat down with my mate Barry who is the metallurgist who is going to do the 3d printing.
Showed him my broken baker lite and he has confirmed that we can easily make it from titanium or stainless in his printer.
He has also confirmed that it will be an order of magnitude stronger than the Baker lite component.
He has identified that we can keep the weight and cost down by modifying the design to incorporate hollow section filled with a lattice like structure.
Also confirmed that all surfaces that need to be machined are accessible.
So next step is to get the cad done and from there the job is priced per square mm.
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It's interesting isn't it that the advice from your 3D printer guy is different to the advice from my 3D printer guy!
Anyone else have any 3D printing experience here?
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What was his advice stick. Not sure exactly what your getting at. Can you elaborate. Just about to spend several hundred dollars doing this and if you have a solution that's guaranteed I will take it if I can afford to. As far as I am aware these baker lite posts are unobtainable?
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I was advised that a 3D printed part is significantly less dense than a part machined from solid so will not withstand wear (in this case sliding through a lip seal and a lip seal sliding through it).
In addition, for me this is a commercial proposition. I am considering fitting these parts to boosters/servos that I will sell or fit to my customers' cars so I need to be absolutely sure that the component I fit is not going to fail. The last thing I need is for someone's brakes to fail and have a sharp-suited lawyer knocking on my door.
Your own car is another matter entirely.
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Stick I am printing these parts in 100% solid stainless steel or titanium and then machined. I would have thought that in terms of wear and durability on a seal it would be perfect and much better than a plastic derivative. Barry is sending me the specs on the strength of the material. I have discussed with him at great length the fact it has to take a vacuum seal and he thought the surface was perfect.
The guys that are printing it are https://www.ram3d.co.nz/3d-metal-printing
What Barry did point out is that the part of the Baker lite that has failed was a terrible design that they appeared to have fixed in the latter boosters. The small post that breaks off has a cutaway that channels vacum through an arc of about 90 degrees so the support for this post is compromised and the loadings are unequal around the circumference.
Printed in steel this would be much much stronger at this point of failure. Given this point of the booster transfers all assisted and non assisted force to the master I would have assumed that this point is actually more safety critical than the vacum seal surfaces. At the send of the day if assisted brakes fail you can always brake with non assisted. I've been doing it for a couple of years.
On another matter I have also been contacting a brake outfit in the UK who have been around for decades and done many of the ate booster. Rhd and lhd.
The owner has just sent me an email this morning saying that the rod specific to RHD boosters is imininetly exchangeable for the forked rod in my other booster. If he is correct then this would eliminate the need to recreate the rhd early baker lite.
If the newer booster does not have the same designed baker lite it unlikely to have failed in the same manner. And if it does in fact accept the ball tipped rod then the only issues become the seals and diaphragms.
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Forget about the booster Andy, how good is the grass!!!!! :)
More seriously though I better get my booster out of the box, makes me wonder if it's another component I should refurbish whilst my car is in a 1000 bits.
These, Joe
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HI Joe.
You are a man after my own heart. I do love a good lawn!
In regards to your booster, I wouldn't panic but I do know for a fact they hate sitting around.
My friend Kev who own a Mercedes car spares shop has mentioned it to me on more than one occasion. Always listen to the parts guy!
Another tip is be very careful with it when you store or work on it. I have now had two failures of boosters that came out working and went back in faulty. I wouldnt take it any where near a bead blaster with fears that you get grit inside it and somehow damage the seals.
I will always have mine tested from here on in before reinstalling. Its only 20 dollars here. Cheap insurance on wasted labour.
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I called Barry this morning to discuss the strength and and resilience of the 3d printing. I guess as parts become unavailable this is where we are heading. His response as follows:
Hi Andrew.
Further to our discussion around replacing the failed bakelite parts with 3D-printed metal:
RAM3D in NZ ( www.ram3D.co.nz ) manufacture production parts in full-strength metal alloys.
As-printed the material is fully-dense (see attached microstructure of our stainless steel) and the same strength as the same material purchased "off the shelf" in bar or plate form. Our material properties are as per the table attached.
We print 3 tensile test bars with every batch of product produced, and no parts go out the door until the tensile test results are in.
With 10 years of continuous data we have the world's longest-running dataset in this area by many years.
We manufacture production parts for almost every industry imaginable, including defence, aerospace, space, marine, land transport, food production, construction, agriculture and a great many more.
Also attached is a micro showing typical faults found in poor quality 'off the shelf' metals that many manufacturers never test for and hence never know the faults are in there. We conduct a great many failure investigations in our metallurgical laboratory and have a wealth of knowledge and experience in the area of strengths and qualities of materials.
Regarding 3D-printing of metals there is a lot of hype and general lack of knowledge about what is good quality and what is not. Any process that uses a metal powder mixed with a binder, and subsequent 'debinding' and 'sintering' in furnaces will not produce a full-strength reliable part. The sintered structure is not fully dense and is full of stress-raisers.
In order to be fully dense, full-strength and reliable a 3D-printed metal part must be made from pure metal powder (not mixed with a binder), and it must be fully melted solid in the printing process.
RAM3D's parts are solid metal as they come out of the printer. Our clients weld them, machine them, process them through any process that 'off the shelf' metals can be processed through - but usually with much better results as they do not have the flaws inherent in 'off the shelf' metals.
Industry, manufacturers and inventors are slowly taking-up the technology as they learn of it. Those who do usually leap-frog their competition in a big way as 3D-printing allows a product to be made to be the most functional it possibly can be - unrestricted by traditional methods of manufacture or material availability that usually restrict the functionality of a design.
As well as the caution about sintered metal parts, another big caution is for people who have enough money to buy a 'proper' metal 3D printer: You simply cannot buy a printer, add powder, press the button and get usable parts you can rely on. There is so very much more to it than that. You need some very special equipment and very special people skilled in metallurgy and design to make good parts. And you need full access to and understanding of laser parameters in order to get the machine working in a manner that will enable you to live long enough to see a good result. You don't buy a foundry and heat treatment shop because you want to make a few castings. Or buy a forging and heat treatment shop because you need a few forgings. You go to the experts who have invested many millions and many years learning. Unfortunately there are quite a few people making this mistake, with 2 bankruptcies so far in Australia as a direct result of uninformed leaping into this area. Worse still is uninformed, inexperienced and unknowledgeable operators making crappy product that gives the technology a bad name.
Buyers venturing into the technology should ask for tensile test results for their product batch.
Also attached is an article for an industry magazine that gives a fuller insight into additive manufacturing of metals. Unfortunately our best stories and product pics are restricted from publication by strict confidentiality arrangements.
I encourage anyone interested in learning more about the technology to contact me directly.
Regards, Barry
Barry Robinson
E barry@ram3d.co.nz
M +64 (0)27 286 4722
A 50 Paerangi Place
Tauriko Business Park, Tauranga 3171
PO Box No 16064, Tauranga 3147
F facebook.com/ram3dprinting
www.ram3D.co.nz
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Can anyone tell me where I might source a new diaphragm from. Either genuine ATE or aftermarket. There are two in the unit, the one I need is the outer one that sits closest to the master cylinder.
My one has torn in the crease which is apparantely really common as that is the area which moves the most I guess. It could have been damaged also taking the unit apart but it looks historic to me.
Andy, you could contact ATE directly and ask whether the diaphragm/membrane is available:
http://www.ate-brakes.com/meta-navigation/contact/
However, be sure that you mention the T51 correct booster part number!
Looking at your photos I can see that it shows a p/n 3.6197-0220/4 and an internal part has the p/n 3.6118-5405.1.
The 3.6197 booster is not correct for your RHD 230SL - the correct one is 3.6197-0404.4 as shown in PeterW113's photo. See attached copy of the ATE parts catalog page.
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Thanks Alfred. I will contact ate tonight.
The booster shown in your photo is the w108 spare I have.
The burning question is did ate and Mercedes resolve the clearance issue with the manifold in the 280 by going to a convex outer cover.
Ie do I take the opportunity to very sensitively change up the booster by one model to bring it into line with a rhd 280sl?
Still need a bit more investigation.
Much apprecuated
Andy
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Very interesting info Andy, thanks!
Since I will be on Aus on November perhaps I should re-consider.....
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Stick if you make it to NZ I can organize not only a bbq but also tour of the 3d and heat treatment facility!
If I go ahead with the printing I am going to get them to take a time lapse video which should be interesting. Its all going to boil down to the lowest cost solution though so at the moment all bets are still on.
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Dear Mr. Ferns
Unfortunately offered never items for brake booster T51.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards
Henrik Breitmeyer
ATE Classic Programm-Koordinator
I CVAM IAM PPM BS
Continental
Division Interior
Business Unit Commercial Vehicles & Aftermarket
Rechnungsanschrift/ Billing address:
Continental Aftermarket GmbH
Guerickestrasse 7, 60488 Frankfurt, Germany
Besucheradresse / Visitors address:
Helfmannpark 1, 65760 Eschborn
Germany
Hotline: +49 (0) 1805-22-12-42
Tel: +49 (0) 69-7603-1962
E-Mail:ate_classic@continental-corporation.com
Home: http://www.ate-classic.de
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No...,
That's also the same experience I made long ago with those ATE folks...
No official repair/overhaul/spare parts available for our T51 brake boosters! :P :-X
Wasn't there a shop somewhere in California which could do our brake booster's overhaul...? :(
Including new diaphragm....? ???
Don't know about the broken bakelite part... Maybe not that.
But the rest ..... 8)
Achim
(Going to try out that service for one of his old brakeboosters - and who does not want to put a T52 in his 113)
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.... Wasn't there a shop somewhere in California which could do our brake booster's overhaul...? :(
Including new diaphragm....? ???
Don't know about the broken bakelite part... Maybe not that.
But the rest .....
Achim,
I have used the "Power Brake Exchange" company at the Bell Gardens (Los Angeles) location [ http://www.pwrbrake.com/ ] twice and both times they replaced both membranes in a T51/200 and the units worked perfectly. Unfortunately, the owner in charge of this location passed away and I am not sure whether the knowledge and care has suffered now. They could not fix the T51/200 in my 1964 230SL twice and also a third attempt by the people in their San Jose facility could not get the job done.
Fortunately I had a spare and I asked another company in Upland (Los Angeles) [ http://www.karpspb.com/ ] to refurbish it and they did a very nice job (both membranes, much rust removal, polishing some parts but don't know which ones - and painting the housing for $390 plus shipping).
Officially the only parts that ATE sold for the booster were a seal ring, the dust/dirt cover, the filter and a muffling piece, and two check valve parts - the part numbers are in the black square column below. But I believe that they will supply the membranes to repair shops.
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Didn't quite make it to my car show today. A bit down as I have missed every car show since I have had the car driving 4 years ago. My bday today as well. Will go along and look in any event.
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Thanks Andy I'll go and look for it and sus it out.
Rgds, Joe
PS. And hope you had a great birthday!!!!
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HI Joe.
You are a man after my own heart. I do love a good lawn!
In regards to your booster, I wouldn't panic but I do know for a fact they hate sitting around.
My friend Kev who own a Mercedes car spares shop has mentioned it to me on more than one occasion. Always listen to the parts guy!
Another tip is be very careful with it when you store or work on it. I have now had two failures of boosters that came out working and went back in faulty. I wouldnt take it any where near a bead blaster with fears that you get grit inside it and somehow damage the seals.
I will always have mine tested from here on in before reinstalling. Its only 20 dollars here. Cheap insurance on wasted labour.
Logged
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #1
Today Kev from Startech Enterprises here in Auckland very kindly gave me the T51 booster that was a candidate for replacement until it turned up faulty.
He has donated this for free so I can dissect it, take detailed photos and compare the inners with the rhd model. I can figure out exactly what parts are in common and compare in detail the Baker lite hub which gives so much problem side by side with the lhd.
I am interested in particular to see if you can chop and change parts to take the rhd ball tipped input shaft. Sounds rude but very accurate.
I have heard from a very experienced brake shop in the UK this is possible and easy. But being the pessimist I am I want the evidence right in front of my eyes as I have heard conflicting opinions on this from other very trustworthy sources.
So... I made some progress. I thought pulling the main body apart was going to be really hard. I made up a bit of a jig to hold the booster firm in my vice. Clamping it from the pedal side of the booster.
Then I reinforced the studs that take the master cylinder and simply used a really long pry bar to rotate the outer case. It's held in by a kind of bayonet type fitting which if twisted about 1cm either left or right clears about 20 interference tabs and then the outer case simply drops away. It really didn't take to much force to twist it apart. I did use healthy doses of wd40 to help things along. I really don't think it will be that hard to reverse but I could be completely wrong
Immediately it was obvious why this booster was faulty with a good portion of the outer diaphragm torn.
I have now hit a bit of a snag as need to undo a 45mm nut to proceed. My biggest spanner is 35mm so will have to take a trip to the shop.
I know from talking to the guys that pulled apart my rhd booster that you have to go in from this side to get at everything so stopped in my tracks.
Will keep on going over the next couple of day. Tomorrow my broken baker lite has an audience with the titanium 3d printer tech guy so will be interested to see exactly what he has to say.
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....
Immediately it was obvious why this booster was faulty with a good portion of the outer diaphragm torn. ...
Hello Andy,
I hope you get this 45mm wrench soon, can't wait to see what you'll find when you take the piston out.
If you need a new diaphragm perhaps this company can help you, they list the ATE 3.6197:
http://floridacarparts-llc.com/?page_id=302
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #2
I have made significant progress and have learnt a lot over the past couple of weeks. A few other curve balls have presented themselves that I had to deal with that have prevented me from updating in here so I have quite a bit of catch up.
I ended up buying a huge 45mm spanner to get the nut off. When I came back to it I started to attempt to take the nut off in situ inside the booster but very quickly discovered that the entire internal mechanism was free spinning in the booster case. So I obviously had to find another way to retract the mechanism to further work on it.
After about 20s of spinning the internals by hand it became apparent that there were another series of internal barrels that had the same half scalloped ridges that the outer seal employed. So rotating and gently pulling at the same time allows you to withdraw to the next step. There are two internal surfaces on the mechanism that you need to do this for in order to clear the outer lip of the casing. Its kind of like a game of frogga for those who can remember back to the 80's
Once you clear the last ring the entire internal just pop out.
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #3
Once the entire booster internal assembly has been withdrawn from the casing its easy to see how to continue dissasembly.
I first had to remove the large 45mm nut securing the entire assembly together. It had been dot punched on the internal thread, slightly distorting the nut and the hollow threaded tube, in order to lock it in place. Guess this is part of the non serviceable banter you here about these units.
I carefully and very gently peened the threads back into round by tapping an old pair of long nose pliers 50 to 60 times around the indentation and with only hand resistance on the outer ring I managed to get the nut off with not damage. Its really worth a mention here that the only surface you really have to clamp on to hold the unit while undoing this nut is the steel internal barrel/disc that is bolted to the baker lite hub.
I cant help but wonder if you didn't spend the time carefully sorting out the punched thread that there would be temptation to get a the very big 45mm spanner and just go for gold. I am almost certain all the load would be transmitted into the bakerlite and could cause more than a few unwanted breakages.
It was interesting to go back to my 230sl booster parts which have been taken apart on at least tow occasions now and examine the thread. It was a mess with someone obviously in the past hitting it hard just the once to undo the dot punching done at the factory
Once the 45mm nut is off the internal largely fall apart in your hands. Be carful extracting all the plates as they slide over a central seal that you probably want to preserve in case its still usable.
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #4
One of the only differences I observed while pulling apart the early 230sl booster and this latter T51 was that on the earlier version the two central plates on the early version were spot welded together with small connecting steel plates. On the later model this was dropped and the two plates obviously were allowed to moved independently.
The diameter is exactly the same as are the two plates. I cant work out why this change was put in place.
After the large dish plates are removed the inner baker lite hub assembly end is exposed with the four bolts that secure it to the outer casing. You have to come in this way to undo gain access to the baker lite. Its impossible to do any other way.
Note the very out of round O ring on the end of the tube that has been completely flattened between the nut and the inner tube housing. I will have to replace this somehow when putting everything back together I guess.
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #5
At this point you will now have the entire baker lite vacume relief valve assembly in your hand which included the rear input rod, bakerlite hub assmbly, and the out put rod that transmits all the assisted braking pressure to the master.
I wish ATE could simply provide this as one spare part. Other than the external diaphragms tearing all the problems are in this unit.
The first tear down difficulty I had with this was separating the output rod from the baker lite. Its held in place with a steel cup that is pressed onto the baker lite.
I am not sure if its supposed to be a tolerance fit or just over the years it has welded itself to the baker lite.
I tried to simply pull it off but was super mindful of damaging the baker lite surface. There isn't really anything you can clamp to without risking damaging the plastic. Also bear in mind that the outer bakerlite shaft is a sealing surface against the outer casing seal so if it gets scratched of damaged you may as well throw it away.
I immediately taped it up with copious amounts of insulation tape to protect it.
I found success separating these parts by clamping the steel output shaft in the vice and very gently using a drift dozens and dozens of times around the circumference of the baker lite making sure I never used excessive force. I also started off by spraying and soaking the steel cups inner rim with WD40.
Eventually it started to give and then very quickly the entire cup slipped off. Knowing how delicate the baker lite is I cant stress how carefully I proceeded. This is the exact location on my other original 230sl booster that the baker lite had fractured right around the circumference.
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #6
At this point you have the baker lite hub with only the input rod protruding. It was also a real mystery to me as to how the shaft was held in. I studied it for twenty minutes or so trying to work it out then went back to the booster parts from my 230. Bear in mind I didn't pull this booster down so didn't specifically know what parts came from where.
I finally stumbled on a small half circle collar that fitted onto the old input shaft and traced its approximate location back on the new baker lite hub. There was a tiny slither of what turns out to be rubber sealing a very thin cut out on the baker lite hub that conceal and hold the collar in place. I also suspect it may also be required to seal the inner working chamber of the hub for vacumn tightness.
I got the smallest jewlers screwdrive I could possibly find and gently worked out the rubber seal. I have kept this rubber seal in a very secure location while I am restoring the booster.
Once the seal is out the collar simply drops out when you hold the unit upside down and press on the input shaft releasing the pressure on it. There is a sping on the shaft that holds constant tension against the collar while the shaft is resting.
Once the collar is out the shaft and all its seals can be withdrawn from the middle of the baker lite hub. I used a squirt of crc around the seals to help it out without damage. The seals dont normally ride in this direction and risk being pulled inside out and being damaged.
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #6.../...
This is great work you are doing, and perfect that you document it all so well!
Most interesting :)
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...welded itself to the baker lite....
Yes, I do support the (European) baker(y) shops very much - I am a heavy buyer there. :D ;D 8)
Guess, you are referring to "bakelite" rather than "baker(s) lite" (which is perhaps more healthy than the stuff I am buying),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite
Never mind please, Andy...!
Keep on the Excellent Work here!
Best,
Achim
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Thanks achim. I am blaming that one on my PC auto spell check. Perhaps I should substitute the word for something else so everyone knows what I am on about. Any suggestions. How about brown pig 🐽 That kinda describes that stuff. I shouldnt cast off at it as it's lasted longer than I have been alive I guess.
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #7
Now that I have the input pin out I compared it side by side with the infamous RHD equivalent.
I was fully expecting from all the advice and opinions that I have received that the shaft would be specific in some way to the RHD booster.
I was pleasantly surprised to discover it was absolutely identical in every dimension other than the fork connection to the pedal set rather than the ball in the RHD system.
This has opened up a whole new world as it means that the RHD input shaft can simply be swapped directly into any operable T51 booster and bolted right back in.
Also this means that there is nothing RHD specific to the Bakelite hub. This is significant as there is huge number of W108 and W109 sedans out there. Around 400k were produced to the 50k of the 113. So any old, even non-functioning, T51 is a candidate for either a rebuild or at least a supply of spare parts.
So now I have the entire booster decomposed I can safely say that there really isn’t that much that can go wrong with them that can’t be fixed… even at home. The only things that I can see that can cause issues are:
1. One or both of the dinner plate diaphragms torn
2. Bakelite hub broken
3. Input shaft plunger seal to inside Bakelite hub perished
4. Rear case seal perished
5. Canter tube seal perished
6. Case to diaphragm seal not sealing properly
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #8
Comparing other components it’s now apparent that all T51 share the exact same diaphragms. Both the large dinner plate parts had identical part numbers from the early 230sl T51 to the W108 forked unit.
The central steel tub is also identical. It seems this component has some sort of coating on it. My early 230 part is showing a lot of wear and is completely worn off in places. This surface is what the central vacuum seal runs on so I am going to use the better part when I reassemble.
I am still not certain which booster shell I will run with. The old unit is much more pitted from old external and internal rust as the new unit.
Also the issue of the clearance to the inlet manifold would be solved with the newer unit so am tending to just swap my input rod into this and fully restore that unit.
At least I have options now!
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Andy,
thank you for taking us along on this very interesting story! 👍
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Anatomy of a T51 ate Brake Booster #9
Some more photos of the differences for you. I talked about the central plates in the early booster being joined with steel tabs. I have taken a photo of this to try and show this.
Also the front booster base cover I have talked about being convex rather than the early concave one. See below the photo that shows them side by side and how much more room you have to clear the inlet manifold on RHD vehicles. The older concave cover is almost twice the weight of the convex equivilent. It has an extra internal back wall welded in. Presumably the designers were trying to create a larger vacumn cavity but probably discovered the advantage was neglagable and decided to revert to a simpler lighter design. Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall.
The output shaft is identical. I measure the length and diameter to confirm.
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Happy Anniversary, Andy!
(https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18284.0;attach=58392;image)
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Awwwww, thanks Alfred. Pretty happy with the new model. Quite a few new features that the old one didn't have and much better road holding.
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Hi Andy, it seems like this thread stops after your MASTERCLASS #9 on ATE boosters. Did you reassemble the RHD brake booster using your new findings regarding LHD/RHD booster differences being only the fork vs ball, and how has it worked for you ? I also have a RHD Pagoda, so am interested in your experience here
Also, did you redo your hardtop yet ? Again, would be interested to know how it went.
Thank you for a fabulously detailed and documented restoration master class
Regards
Andrew
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Hi Andrew. I got the booster back together and it worked just fine. No where near as scary as people would lead you to believe. The only difference us the ball. You can buy any good second hand W108 booster and it will swap across just fine.
I havnt posted any more as I sold the pagoda. Was a very very difficult decision but the money offered was too good to refuse.
I have moved onto my next project now a R107 which I just love.
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Hi Andy
Thank you for getting back so quickly. Really good to know about the booster, you did us all a huge favour with your inquisitive approach and commitment to documenting everything.
When I was looking to buy my Pagoda, I saw a lot that had been "restored" but which were actually incredibly shoddy (cheap paint and carpet - not sure what I was looking at, but it was overpriced and a shame that they had not done the job properly - in most cases charging as if they had). The UK has many people wanting to make a quick buck out of old cars.
There are a few craftsmen who restore these cars properly (some of whom are members here), but many more who do a lousy job and hope to charge top dollar.
Your car would have been in a very different league. I am sure that the new owner is delighted with it, they have certainly bought a car that was a labour of love and where every detail was carefully ensured to be 100% correct. It would have been worth every dollar they paid you for it.
I looked for many years for a car, despairing that prices were rising, but quality was not at the same level.
In the end I managed to find an "unrestored" 1969 model, which, as far as I can tell, has never been painted. It is unmolested (matching numbers) and authentic, however it is not perfect and has number of minor scratches and scars of the last 50 years. I intend to enjoy it, and one day, if needs be, will have it carefully restored. It will cost a fortune to do as beautifully as you did yours.
Enjoy the 107's !
Andrew
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Hi Andrew. Thanks for the kind words. The 113 was a huge part of my life for a few years. It was a love hate relationship though. Such a fiddly pedantic thing to work on. Learnt heaps and feel privileged to have had the opportunity. I am still physically feeling the consequences of it on a daily basis. The spinal injury I sustained while lifting the gearbox has been life changing. Make sure you never make the same mistake. Constant back pain and further operations hang over me like a dark cloud. Still no regrets.. could have just as easily been my kids I was picking up off the ground. Have you got any photos of your sl. I would love to see them. Which part of the uk do you live in.
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Hi Andy
I live in Surrey, south of London, and outside of the "urban/suburban edge", so we have the benefit of being surrounded by woods and fields, but still an easy train ride into London as required.
Your back injury really seems to have been nasty - as you say, you could have picked up a child from the floor and had the same outcome. Nevertheless, it is something that will live with you forever
I have attached some pics of my car
All the best,
Andrew
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I havnt posted any more as I sold the pagoda. Was a very very difficult decision but the money offered was too good to refuse.
Hi Andy,
So good to see you back here! :)
Learned soo much from you and your comprehensive restoration story,
really made my own endeavours during restoration easier here and there...
Thank you so much for your impressive stories !
Very sad that you sold your Pagoda - but most important, you are still around here. ;) :D
Highly appreciate this.
Looking forward to hearing from you in the future again.
All best to NZ,
Achim
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Nice looking car AndrewB, looks like a Silver Arrows advert almost
Neil
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The pics are from Michael Lavers - I bought the Pagoda from him
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Hi all. Just thought I would pop in and say hi. Hope everyone is keeping well and are getting out and about in these lovely cars. I must say I am missing mine. The 107 has taken some of the pain away. I am really enjoying it getting out most weekends. I have just finished my fourth house renovation in three years so am probably going to move on to the 107 to keep me busy. Gotta have a project right?
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Dave, ... I think I am just at that point of 'when the hell is this going to be over'.
This was from Andy's second post, back on page 1, in 2013.
Hi Andrew. ... I havn't posted any more as I sold the pagoda. Was a very very difficult decision but the money offered was too good to refuse.
So, I guess he finally got his answer. What a project!
I wasn't very active on the forums during Andy's journey, so I think I'll make it a point to go back and read as much of this as I can. As I embark on my own 230SL work, to a MUCH lesser level of intensity than Andy's work, I hope to find information and inspiration in these 74 pages of posts.