Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 895794 times)

Garry

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1450 on: February 08, 2015, 04:07:19 »
Beautiful work by Lloyd. Now I am jealous.

And a milestone to Andy, 1000 posts.
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
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Flyair

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1451 on: February 08, 2015, 15:24:16 »
this makes a nearly perfect score of one message/day since joining.
Andy, with such a presence it looks like you were enjoying the Club and its forum...
Stan
1971 280SL
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2011 GL
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andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1452 on: February 09, 2015, 23:02:32 »
I finally managed to get the clutch bleed last night.   The normal way as well.  In the end it was very easy after I sat down and thought things through.  The trick ended up being to remove the clutch slave spring.   If you dont every time you open the bleed nipple any fluid present in the clutch slave is ejected by means of this spring returning the internal piston back to it withdrawn most position.

When you put your foot down on the clutch pedal only a certain amount of fluid is displaced down the system to the slave.  Even though there is about 4-5cm of travel on the piston only enough fluid is pushed through to move it 1-2cm.  If the piston is withdrawn all the way to the back of the cylinder then there is not enough length in the adjustment rod to engage the clutch so its obvious that the piston has to start its travel a bit further down the cylinder.  

So with the spring off and the bleed nipple closed a couple of pumps on the pedal moves the piston forwards as the slave cylinder fills.  The difference being that it stays forward.  I made sure the adjustment rod still had a good amount of adjustment left in it, ie it wasn't screwed to far out of the slave, and then pumped the pedal until the rod was just starting to engage the clutch.

Immediately I had full good clutch resistance.  

I am wondering if the back bleeding method works as there is enough resistance backwards for the fluid to preload the slave with fluid and push the adjustment rod against the resistance of the spring.

In any event after I took this spring off two days of really unfruitful forward bleeding came good in about 10 seconds.

The brake bleeding was not as difficult and in another half an hour I had a drivable car.

Incredible feeling to be in it and moving after so long being an inanimate object parked in my garage.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Benz Dr.

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1453 on: February 10, 2015, 07:10:01 »
Someone installed a cap screw in place of the push pin. The push pin is smaller on the end that fits into the throw out fork and the head of the cap screw isn't sitting in that recess. This probably won't give you any trouble but I thought you might want to know about this.
You are right about removing that spring during adjustments or bleeding. The pin is adjusted correctly when you can feel a small amount of free play between the pin and the fork. Once you have this initial setting right the clutch should never need adjustment again as it's designed to self adjust as the clutch disc wears.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1454 on: February 10, 2015, 07:27:39 »
Thanks Dan.  I did notice that as well but it was what the original clutch had with it.  I have another pin from a W108 that I had plated up.  Looked much better but wasn't sure if it was interchangeable.   With my new found knowledge about the clutch I believe your 100% correct and I probably should change it over.  Will have a look tomorrow.

In the mean time I have bigger fish to fry.  The hot start issue just isn't going away and has indeed got worse during the short runs.  I ended up getting stranded up the road after I stalled it.  Lucky that I was on a bit of a hill and managed to push start it which I probably should have avoided.

Will go through all the diagnostics over the next couple days.  Am certain its not the linkage setup.  Gut is telling me its the fuel delivery pump.  Given my previous investigations with it only delivering 8-9psi I think it has to be the top of the suspect list.  Just grin and smile.  I think after a certain length of ownership with these little beauties the grin and smile through gritted teeth becomes second nature.  Kinda like a stroppy teenage daughter.

I dont quite know what to do here.  My options are either rebuild or replace.  I have the original long version which I would like to keep for originality.  I have seen various repair kits.  I cant quite understand looking at the supplied components how I am going to restore the pumps performance.  Can any one shed some light on this.  

Also I would like to understand why a slightly lower pressure would result in this hot start issue.  If there is enough pressure to start it cold why not hot.  I have read that it could be a cooling issue with the pumped fuel being required to keep in the injection pump cool and free of vapor locking issues.    
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:49:16 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Tomnistuff

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1455 on: February 10, 2015, 17:57:53 »
Andy,
According to the EPC, that W113 clutch slave cylinder pushrod is part number A1112950733 and is used on many 111s, 108s, as well as many other MBs of the era.
Tom Kizer
Apparently late 1966 230SL 4-spd manual (Italian Version)
Owned since 1987 and wrapping up a full rotisserie restoration/modernization.
Was: Papyrus White 717G with Turquoise MBtex 112 and Kinderseat
Is: Dark Blue 332G with Dark Blue Leather (5300, I think)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1456 on: February 11, 2015, 06:23:59 »
Mmmmmmm.   Professional photo hot off the press
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

rutger kohler

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1457 on: February 11, 2015, 08:11:31 »
Hi Andy, like you I would like to know how the primary pump can affect hot start/stalls. If low pressure or volume, to the injector pump. were the problem then why wouldn't the motor labour or stall at cold under load accelerating through the gears if you pushed it hard. If the ignition system is all good it sounds like something downstream of the injector pump area.  I understand this is a common problem which fortunately I don't have myself.
1969 280 SL Manual gear shift
1972 280SE 3.5 auto

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1458 on: February 11, 2015, 20:21:36 »
Yesterday I fitted up the dreaded splash panels.  I had heard and read that they were likely to give 'trouble'.  They didn't disappoint but were not as bad as I had expected.  

I decided not to use calking as the factory did as I want to be able to remove the panel for inspection and also to be able to install further sound dead material to the back of the inner panel if I need it.

I decided to go ahead with rubber as its likely to be far more long lasting than any foam.  I used a 3M product over the cheaper ones as I suspect the material is of much better quality.  Also decided to get one with several barrier ridges in it specifically designed for keeping water out.  It only cost seven dollars more than the cheapest variant so probably money well spent.

Glued it all up and cut the holes for the screws.  The Previous owner had over-sized all bar two or three of the original body holes so I had no choice but to use slightly oversized panel screws.  Dug into my pot of miscellaneous nuts and bolts to find a good set of matching Mercedes screws.  

The panels went on quite easily once I had established a good installation sequence.  It took a few goes to get it right.  To get the panel in place it would help to have the whole wheel off.  I couldn't be bothered so initially just turned the wheel to its extreme to give the required access.  

The next trick is to angle the entire section of rubber that meets the guard into place behind the rolled lip of the guard.  Next push the panel up and into place and secure the top 3 bolts.  Then just work your way down with the remaining 3.  

One thing I did cock up on the first of the panels was not making sure I had the seal on the guard rolled into the right position before I started bolting up.  Not a major but it meant that I spend a good 20 mintues with small screw drivers turning over the rolled seal.  

Used a soft rubber hammer to mold the panel edges back into a perfect position and clamp down on the non factory rubber seals.  It worked really well and everything now looks very tight indeed.

Finished up by painting the bolts in the factory silver to keep everything looking original.  Also finished off the sill over panel by screwing it to the splash panel top and bottom.  I think this is factory.  I had two holes top and bottom before I started so followed the lead.

Another job out the way and a few less parts on the 'to do' table.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

ja17

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1459 on: February 12, 2015, 06:14:09 »
Hello Andy,

The finish work on  your splash panels looks very good. As far as hot starting, less pressure means less volume when the starting valve opens. Also less pressure is less circulation in the system. Less fuel circulates and it circulates slower.  The slow moving fuel heats up more when traveling through the engine compartment. Slow moving fuel means hotter fuel which has more of a tendency to vapor lock, especially when the engine is hot!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1460 on: February 12, 2015, 06:23:34 »
Hi Joe, thanks mate.  Awesome advice and confirmation on what I suspected. 

I have been avoiding the reality that it might be the delivery pump due to the very high associated costs of putting it right.  I am just trying to understand your point about the pressure not being as high when the valve opens.  I may have this wrong but does this mean that there is a relationship between the output and input pressure of the FIP.  I was under the impression that delivery pump just circulated fuel through the FIP's petrol reservoir and the only time this could impact on the FIP's output pressure and volume was if the reservoir of fuel it had to suck from ran dry.   

I am in agreement that I may have a vapor lock issue.  Joe can you let me know what you think about the delivery pump being rebuilt with new seals ie will it likely restore full pressure and volume.  I really need some guidance on which way to go here.  I probably can afford a rebuild kit but if I have to go for a new pump it will delay the project by months.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1461 on: February 12, 2015, 07:47:16 »
Rats and mice day today.  I did managed to get the car started and moved it out of the garage.  Love seeing it out in natural light for a change.  Couldn't resist a few quick photos.

For the first time in a year or so I managed to clean the garage floor.  It has got to quite an atrocious state  with layer upon layer of grease, paint, under-seal and all manner of leaked lubricants.  Did my best with heavy degreaser but will really give it another birth day when the project is finished.  Probably will need four litres of paint stripper!  My efforts have however resulted in a much nicer feel and smell to the place.

Then moved onto Dans suggestion that I have the wrong clutch pin.  I found my W108 version and it seems to be huge in comparison.  I then located the slave cylinder that I pulled out of the car.  I replaced it as it was seeping fluid.  Its pin looks identical to what I currently have.  Dan can you take a quick look at the photos and let me know if I should be swapping it out for the gold W108 version.

Sorted out the boot as well.  Fitted up all the gas tank breather set up to the best of my ability.  I hadn't taken a single photo of this area when I pulled it apart so was going on pure gut instinct as to where things should be routed.  Again anyone spots something out of place here shout out and I will change it.

Finally decided to sort out another issue which has bugged me since day one of ownership.  A previous owner had chopped down the battery clamp to suit a smaller unit.  The battery I have fits perfectly in the base tray at around 180mm wide. I figure the top plate should be the same size which will then fit my battery perfectly.  Its currently sitting at about 165mm in width.  

Chopped up an old W108 battery tray and canibalised it for some fresh steel wide enough to fix my problem.  It has an identical profile so I should get a good seamless job if I don't botch up the welding and painting.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1462 on: February 13, 2015, 05:03:50 »
Finished off my battery clamp today.  Quite a fiddly job to get it right.  The cutting and welding went ok but took quite a while to get the 45 degree mitre joints right.  Painted it up with spray can paint which almost made me vomit.  Its such nasty stuff in comparison to 2k paint.  Even the feel of it when its dry is somehow different.  I may pull it off and blast it again.  I have ran out of 2k hardener which is the only reason I didn't do it properly.

I used a rubber strip on the underside of the clamp to further isolate it from the battery which is also sitting on a rubber mat.  Should help minimize vibrations which are a real killer for lead acid batteries.

I even found some thumb screw with built in rubber.  Around the positive terminal I have also wrapped the battery clamp with two or three turns of thick pvc insulation tape.  Protects me from my own stupidity when I forget to drop the negative terminal first and spanner slips on the positive terminal and hist the clamp.  Can never be too safe!

A waiting game now for my soft top cable parts to turn up from Germany and I can get on with putting the frame back in.  Will strip it on the ground and then fit the canvas with the frame in.

Also still have the issue with the fuel pump.  Rebuild or buy a new one.  Anyone have any thoughts. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1463 on: February 14, 2015, 08:38:55 »
Stripped the soft top frame today.  Have an issue with the new canvas top not having the same attachment setup as the one I took off.  I appears the original was only attached to the one wooden bow by means of a series of small flat head nails.  The new canvas seem to be designed to  glue up to every single bow.  I am wondering if I have been sold a late model 280 top????  Can anyone shed some light.

The frame itself is in excellent condition.  Very lucky.

Has anyone fitted a fuel delivery pump repair kit?
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1464 on: February 14, 2015, 10:20:02 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../... the new canvas top not having the same attachment setup as the one I took off.  I appears the original was.../...
Seems to me, the one you took off was not "original M-B from factory". Probably changed by some PO to a repro type (long ago), as only those tops are black on the inside.

Quote
The new canvas seem to be designed to  glue up to every single bow.

So it should be

Quote
I am wondering if I have been sold a late model 280 top
There are definitely (minute but important) differences between a soft top canvas for a 230SL with the wooden bow above the rear window, and the canvas sewn to fit an all-steel soft top frame

Quote
The frame itself is in excellent condition
Great! Make sure all bolts and joints on your frame are in good order. The parts above the side window must not sag into a "V". Mount the frame on the car and adjust it thoroughly, as well as the fabric bands running lengthwise. Make sure the side windows aluminium guides are re-fitted (eliminate wobble) and then adjust frame to fit the rolled-up side windows snugly. This is done with shims etc.
Test folding/raising the frame (many times). Only after you are pleased with these steps, fit the soft top fabric onto frame.
Much to be found in the Forum and Wiki about this topic
See for instance: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20296.msg143737#msg143737
/Hans in Sweden
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 16:37:54 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1465 on: February 15, 2015, 05:30:45 »
Thanks Hans.  Took your advice and went right over the frame.  Found a couple of things that definitely need attention.  One bolt missing and replaced with another hex bolt and one missing altogether.  Will order some new ones and fix this up.

Also had a closer look at the existing fabric that is wrapped around all the bows. I would love to know if this is factory material.

Has any one had any experience with repairing the early long type fuel delivery pumps.  Specifically knowledge on if the refurbishment is capable of restoring factory pressure and volume requirements.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Jowe

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1466 on: February 15, 2015, 07:21:25 »
Has any one had any experience with repairing the early long type fuel delivery pumps.  Specifically knowledge on if the refurbishment is capable of restoring factory pressure and volume requirements.

Andy, look at http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Fuel/FuelPumpRebuildEarly Not my experience, but this seems to be a very good hint.
Johan
04/1964 230SL, European, manual 4-sp, power steering, 050/050 white, black leather, Blaupunkt (SOLD)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1467 on: February 15, 2015, 07:58:26 »
Hi Jowe.  Thanks for that.  I have read it several times and just to sure again in the last half an hour.  It seems like an excellent reference if your pump needs rebuilding if its leaking.  It doesn't however discuss why a pump might loose pressure or volume and how specifically to fix these issues.

My only thoughts are that if the electric motor is not turning the impeller fast enough.  I am speculating if either worn bearings may result in enough drag to cause this.  Having seen the inside of my pump i cant see any other way its capacity would be diminished other than physical blockages which mine dies not have.

I need to make a well informed decision on which way to go.  If it is repairable with the 107 dollar kit I will do that.  But if I here from anyone in here how has had a negative experience with the rebuild then I will bit the bullet and try and source another.

My pump is currently only producing 8psi max.  Factory spec call for around 13 min.   Other than the low output it seems to be in nice condition.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

rutger kohler

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1468 on: February 15, 2015, 08:17:22 »
Hi Andy, Rodger here, it seems very strange that you drove the car some 60 miles when you first bought it with no problems. If you hadn't I would suggest metal wear on the tips of the pump impeller, the casing that they just clear of the mating surfaces on the top and bottom of the impeller.  Reading the link Hans directed you to, if you haven't stripped the pump motor section I would do this and see if there is a sludge in the rotor/armature section slowing it down.  testing the unit out of the car as shown in that link would also be worthwhile I think.
1969 280 SL Manual gear shift
1972 280SE 3.5 auto

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1469 on: February 15, 2015, 08:25:34 »
Hey Rodger,

I have tested the pump out of the car.  The pressure gauge setup that you helped me construct was used for that part.  I tested it in and out of the car with voltages ranging from 11 up to 14 with no perceived difference in pressure which surprised me as I would have thought with the additional voltage the impeller would be spinning faster and give a higher pressure reading.

Indeed the car was running beautifully when I purchased it.  I only drove it on three occasions and am wondering if I only ever started it when it was cold so just didn't notice an existing problem.  Remember though when I came to recommissioned the pump a few months back it was jammed and I had to take it apart to free it.  Another possibility is that I somehow damaged it.

Also as pointed out by other members there is also the possibility that my hot start issue has nothing to do with the delivery pump.  Just have to methodically work my way through all possibilities.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Rodolfo

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1470 on: February 15, 2015, 08:47:13 »
Andy,

make sure the pump is delivering maximum capacity. When I testdrove my 230 SL before I bought it, I noticed that there was not enough power from 3500 rev/min on. I mean, a six cilinder should really go from this point on. And it didn't. So they replaced the fuel pump. Then the car had wings to 6000 rev/min.
So don't do economics on the rebuild or replacement of the fuel pump. It would take away the pleasure of that engine.

best regards, Rudy

tel76

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1471 on: February 15, 2015, 08:50:11 »
Andy,
If you stripped the pump earlier is it possible you have fitted the impellor the upside down?
Eric

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1472 on: February 15, 2015, 09:24:43 »
Tel.  Positive i didn't upset the impellor as i didnt remove it rather just freed it and cleaned.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1473 on: February 15, 2015, 12:16:28 »
Hi, Andy,

Out of interest, what coil/ballast resistor combination do you have?
Id the distributor still with points?

Naj
68 280SL

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1474 on: February 15, 2015, 15:05:02 »
Quote from: andyburns
.../...Also had a closer look at the existing fabric that is wrapped around all the bows. I would love to know if this is factory material
IMHO, the fabric of choice to install for a Pagoda soft top is the "Sonnenland" type. See description of this in the Wiki. Inside colour cremé

Mercedes do not weave/produce their own soft top fabric, they have vendors (for the cabriolet cars being produced today).
As for our old SL types, M-B Classic buys the products they offer to customers, sewn most likely by some external vendor.

So anyway, in my view when one buys a W113 soft top, one should ensure that the vendor uses bona fide "Sonnenland" material, of the correct type. Note, there is Sonnenland fabric on sale which is indeed high quality but not at all suited for our use; instead these fit like modern cabriolets with motorized soft top mechanism etc.
On this webpage if you scroll down a bit some facts can be found:
http://www.cabrio.de/khm/en/softtop-materials
/Hans in Sweden
.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 23:22:14 by mbzse »
/Hans S