Author Topic: Restoration Difficulty Level  (Read 896958 times)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1375 on: January 13, 2015, 03:27:13 »
Thanks all.  Took everyones suggestions on board and sorted out the grill this morning.  drmb's tip on the M7 bolts really got me out of some pain.  I just happened to have a spare broken old box lying around and indeed the first bolt I extracted was a M7.  Just had to shorten it to about 8mm of thread and off I went.  

All the rest of the nuts and bolts were replaced with stainless.  I was very careful not to over-tighten any of the fasteners.  I can see how if you did break something here how difficult it would be to repair.  The cost of getting stuff chromed after you have fixed it is eye watering alone.

I spend a good hour cleaning and polishing the finished grill, inside and out.  The final fit up made me quite nervous as yesterday I had drilled the holes in the car body that the 8 securing screws fastened up against.  When I took the grill out half the screws were just sitting there as the body sheet metal had been damaged during the numerous time in the past 50 years the grill has been out.  So when I did the panel work I decided to weld these all shut and start again with fresh holes.  It was the right thing to do.

Anyway when bolting the grill together I noted that the shell had to be stretched a bit when the barrel and side slats were tightened up.  Horrible feeling that the holes I drilled yesterday now might not be in the correct position.
Also had my doubts about how the top edge of the grill would line up with the panel work.   When I got the car the fit was shocking.  The car had previous minor damage to the nose cone and grill that wasn't fixed properly.  I spent a lot of time and money putting it all right.  We did however work with just the empty grill shell so I was again a bit worried that the nice tight gaps we had achieved may have been upset with the flexing of the tightened grill assembly.

On either accounts I shouldn't have worried as it all lined up perfectly.  

Am very very very pleased with it and for the second day in a row I have dodged some huge bullets.  

It would seem lady luck is smiling down.... well for a few hours anyway.  As I closed the bonnet the bonnet stay shot out of the Bakelite guide and snapped down onto the ballast resistor smashing it in half.  I am guessing the when the bonnet strap is attached it contains the stay in this situation.   Only occurred to me after the breakage.  Am interested to know if Mercedes did this by design or not.

Quickly found an original looking Beru replacement with the same resistance rating 1.3ohm.  

Back in business and a very happy camper.



« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 14:10:25 by andyburns »
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

cabrioletturbo

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1376 on: January 13, 2015, 04:09:05 »
Great progress, Andy.

I really like the second picture in your post, with the hood up.
Keep the good work coming.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 10:28:57 by Peter van Es »
Igor
1965 W113 230SL, Ivory with Black

Bonnyboy

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1377 on: January 13, 2015, 04:59:22 »
If you look closely at these Pagodas we love it seems that the ballast resistors gets smacked quite a bit.  After smacking mine (and breaking it) I fabricated a small metal plate that goes over the resistor to protect it from the hood stay fastened in place with the bolts for the hood stay guide.  Doesn't look out of place and protects the resistor.    You could even spray paint it if you wanted.
Ian
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Garry

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1378 on: January 13, 2015, 05:06:57 »
Andy,

With the strap in place it would probably stop the bonnet stay from slipping off onto the resister when open or near open, but as soon as you start to close the bonnet the strap goes slack and would not help much.  The bonnet strut should stay in the guide when opening and closing the bonnet.  If it is not maybe your unit, either the base guide or the strut is slightly misaligned allowing the strut to be pushed off the side. Be careful as you are probably aware that that is under a fair bit or tension and can do some seriour body damage as well.

Garry

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Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
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stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1379 on: January 13, 2015, 09:36:35 »
Good job Andy, congratulations.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1380 on: January 14, 2015, 04:25:33 »
Thanks guys.  All the comments are awesome.  I have been back and refined the bonnet stay guide so things are more likely to stay in place.  Still think it will always have to potential to jump out if your not being careful.

For quite a while I have been dreading putting the side window glass and regulators back in.  Its always a difficult and tricking job to get it just right.  I cleaned all the regulators with some heavy duty degreaser and then hit them with rust converter/zinc coat.

Not sure I am 100% happy with the result.  Am interested to know what the factory finish was.  I am thinking I should go the extra mile and get these all bead blasted and then zinc plated.  Probably way over the top but I really want to make sure everything is well protected.  I wish some guy got hold of this car in 1971 and went over the top with rust proofing.  Would have made my job much more pleasurable 40 years down the track. 

Reflecting on this point this afternoon I have been asking myself if I have over restored the car.  Its got a very dirty connotation to it in the classic car world.  Wondering what you guys think.  I have never quite understood it.  My outlook is that if the restoration work provides much better protection, and cosmetically the result is similar, then its a really positive thing.  If the factory under-protected certain components wouldn't it be moronic to copy it.  Especially if the initial reason was cost savings.

Anyway thats my rant for the day.  Am interested to know what everyone else has done to their window regulators. 

Need to source some 1.2mm rubber sheet for the glass clamp bar and also some soundproofing as well.  Has anyone got a photo of what the factory did in terms of soundproofing.
 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

Garry

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1381 on: January 14, 2015, 06:55:13 »
Andy,

Remember you need the hard top on when you do the final window adjustment.  Adjust to fit to the Hard Top then adjust the soft top to fit to the windows.

And I dont think you can ever under rust proof your car.  I did not do enough rust proofing on my Kombi when I took some rust out, and guess what five years later, hello I’m back. I just hate that.

Garry
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

Larry & Norma

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1382 on: January 14, 2015, 08:49:24 »
I used a cycle inner tube for the rubber, a little fiddly to cut a straight section but worked ok.
Larry Hall (Gnuface)
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mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1383 on: January 14, 2015, 12:10:14 »
Quote from: andyburns
../...Window regulating mechanism.  Am interested to know what the factory finish was.../...
Well, what you have there is a set of well preserved original window regulator parts, in factory finish. I.e. a dark grey metal surface, a phosphate(?) coating.

An important detail when it comes to the Pagoda doors interior are the plastic sheets that must be in place. Often missing. These sheets protect the door cards from moisture.
See attached picture. Spray glue may be used to fit the plastic sheet, however I use a malleable gumlike black material from car glass repair shops.
/Hans in Sweden
.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 14:39:44 by mbzse »
/Hans S

paults1

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1384 on: January 14, 2015, 14:03:01 »
Andy, I used a thin double faced tape to install the vinyl over the door interior. I just could not bring myself to using messy glue.  I knew I would probably need to get back into the door interior at some time. Sure enough I had too several times for adjustments, etc.  The vinyl removes fairly easy when using the tape.



Scottcorvette

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1385 on: January 14, 2015, 18:59:46 »
Andy, this is the stuff you need:

https://www.npdlink.com/store/products/seal_strip_glass_channel_1_16_inch-141849-1.html

It is a window setting tape. I have used it on Corvettes and used it on my Mustang, it is superb stuff and is just like factory fit. It is like a self amalgamating tape. I just sprayed both sides with some WD40 to help the glass slip in, feed it into the channel and then feed the glass in, you can tap the channel onto the glass with a rubber mallet or block of wood or something. Leave it a while for the WD40 to evaporate or whatever, clean the glass and bingo, its in there, and it aint coming out.....

Car looks great by the way!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 19:46:52 by Scottcorvette »

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1386 on: January 15, 2015, 08:28:23 »
Thanks Scott,  I have registered and ordered the tape.  Looks exactly correct for the job.  Garry, I have a bit of a dilemma as the hard top wont be ready for at least a year (well that's what I have told the wife anyway) so I am just going to  forge ahead and get the soft top on and fitting nicely and come back and readjust everything when the hardtop is restored.  I have thought about doing it using the unrestored top but I plan on replacing all the rubbers so more than likely doing it as is would be a waste of time but I may be 100% wrong!

Today I decided to recommission the power steering.  Before I could start I needed to sort out the steering linkages.  I decided that two of the four tie rod ends needed replacing.  Went all the way in to my parts guy to pick up some new units.  Of course the first question he asked was did I want left or right hand thread rod end.  mmmmmmm.  Kick myself in the proverbial balls.  Solved to problems by taking both with a promise to return what I didn't use.  Very kind of dear old Kev.  Very appreciative indeed!

Sorted all the linkages to within eye ball standards.  Will get a proper wheel alignment when the car is rolling.

The power steering caused me two hours of misery.  I had forgot to do up various fitting which all pissed oil and tightening them was misery personified.  The same job in a W108 is pleasant in comparison with room to kill.

Once I had sorted all the issues I fired up the old girl and with jug of automatic trans fluid in hand proceeded to top up the reservoir as all its contents got sucked into the system.  I know there are bleed points on the box but just couldn't be bothered to open them with the restricted access so I took to plan B which was just turn off the engine and wait to all the air had self bleed back through the reservoir.. well as much of it as possible.  When you first fill this system I dont think its possible to avoid cavitation and aerated ATF.  It turn a very milky color initially.  I should have taken a photo.  I turned the steering wheel to both extremes a few times and initially you feel and here the box sucking up the fluid in each new direction you turn the wheel.

Once I cycled a few times the steering still felt a bit iffy so I decided to turn the engine off and wait for all the fluids to settle and all the air dissipate.  Two hours latter the fluid was back to normal ATF look.  Turned the engine over.  Of course it started first time.  The steering now feels perfect.  Silky almost.  Mercedes did a very very good job with the power steering.  I am picking in its day it was right at the top of the heap.  Comparatively it still holds up against modern systems in my opinion.

The power steering conversion has been quite an ordeal.  I spent a vast amount of time getting the shaft right and finding the correct steering box arm.  It was almost an anticlimax when it all clipped together this afternoon and ran as expected. 




Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

stickandrudderman

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1387 on: January 15, 2015, 22:52:29 »
Andy, do yourself a favour and bleed the system from the nipple on the box, it's easy to get to. Attach a long hose to the nipple and run it into a large, clean container on the floor. Open the nipple and go through the filling/lock to lock process. Run 3 or 4 litres of fluid through the system to be sure that you have extracted every bubble of air and then box it up and relax.
Doing it your way is likely to lead to over-pressurisation of the reservoir and the fluid being ejected over the reservoir cap and making a mess.

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1388 on: January 19, 2015, 03:57:55 »
Started putting the doors back together over the last three days.  Was not looking forward to it as I knew it would be tricky to get right. 

Started by installing new sound deadening material.  Originally the car had a 1.5mm mat made from bitumen glued to the middle of the inside door panel.  Without it the door acts as a big drum.  The new stereo generates so much sound pressure you can literally see it vibrate from the outside of the car.  I had to improve on the factory design to counter this. 

So I decided to go new school and employ a larger sheet of heavy duty aluminum faced butyl material backed with hard gripping adhesive.  Very light and very very good deadening properties.  Also weighs much less than the original material.

Fitted up one entire sheet per door.  Much more surface area is covered compared to the original covering.  The result is massive.  The door sound very very solid and clunks shut with a much more pronounced thunk.  Have tried to demonstrate how much of an effect it has with a little recording.  One door with it and one without.  I hit the doors with the same force and recorded from the same distance.

Moved on to putting the anti vibration material back onto the glass guide rails.  The only purpose I can see that these have is to stop the ali greases guards from vibrating against the rails.  Went to a fabric shop with my original sample and got the closest match I could.  Only cost four dollars. 
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1389 on: January 19, 2015, 04:12:15 »
Next I had to do work on replacing the rubber glass clamp bars where the rubber had perished and disintegrated.  Glued up the new rubber and trimmed it back.  Then just had to use a fine scalpel to cut the holes for the retaining bolts to go through.

The glass itself has four small holes cut in it to take the clamping bolts.  The holes are oversize and there is a rubber tubes inserted between the bolt and the glass to prevent any nasty accidents.

Half of mine were missing when I got the car and the other half were very brittle so I decided to make us some new ones out of the left over clamp bar rubber.  Worked a treat.  Just took a while to get the length exactly right in order for the rubber so hold itself up exactly in the hole.  I could have been patient and tried to source some exact tubing but I think this is just as good.

The lifter and the glass went in quite painlessly but I can tell I will have to spend quite a bit of time setting it all up.  No point doing this until the rubber and top are back in.  Will leave the door open. 

Another problem I am hoping someone can help me with is the very lower ali garnish moldings which are held in place with small plastic clips.  I for the life of me cannot understand how it works.  The clips that came out of it just dont make sense to me and are barley wide enough to wedge under the two molding ledges. 

I have a W108 clip that is almost identical other than it has two small wings which do home nicely in the W113 molding.  I need to know what I should be using and how to set it up.  It would seem that somehow you push the clips into the car and then latter push or slid the molding onto the clips.  I can imagine if you try and put the clips into the molding and then press on the molding that you might end up with some dents as the clips take quite a bit of force to home into the car body.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

66andBlue

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1390 on: January 19, 2015, 05:33:39 »
...
Another problem I am hoping someone can help me with is the very lower ali garnish moldings which are held in place with small plastic clips.  I for the life of me cannot understand how it works.  The clips that came out of it just dont make sense to me and are barley wide enough to wedge under the two molding ledges. 

I have a W108 clip that is almost identical other than it has two small wings which do home nicely in the W113 molding.  I need to know what I should be using and how to set it up.  It would seem that somehow you push the clips into the car and then latter push or slid the molding onto the clips.  I can imagine if you try and put the clips into the molding and then press on the molding that you might end up with some dents as the clips take quite a bit of force to home into the car body.

See:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2981.msg59302#msg59302
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18100.msg126295#msg126295
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mmizesko

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1391 on: January 19, 2015, 10:46:26 »
Andy,

Alfred's links above are critical to read.

The correct lower clips are essential to hold the aluminum moldings on.  The key issue is to match the thicker aluminum doors to the right reveal on the clip.  I believe there are 7 clips per side on each door, which means you need 14 yellow clips (or clear ones, if the old ones still have wings, and the plugs aren't cracked or brittle, which happens all the time). The little white plugs are also critical (which you push in after the clip is in the hole with a nail set), so I would not avoid them.  Finally, don't forget to mount at least two metal pointy spring clips on each door between the white plug and the clip, as the doors closing all the time tend to want to shift the molding, which will create a nightmare if they slide too far.

The steel is much thinner than the aluminum, so you have to use the blue clips on the 2 lower moldings that are not on the doors.  I'd use the blue clips.  All the clips regardless of color should have wings and the wings should be mounted vertically.  When you put the molding on, try to slide it onto the pointy metal clips from the side and the top, and once tight to the body on the top, just give i rap with your palm all along the bottom, and it should click in.  The aluminum moldings dent, so be careful, and don't use a tool.

Hope this helps.

Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
1970 280SL 291H Dark Olive

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1392 on: January 19, 2015, 21:06:03 »
Thanks guys,  awesome advice.  I have decided to throw away all my old clips and start again.  SLS have just taken my first order with them.   The 46 euro package does however carry a 56 Euro postage fee. mmmm

I have another door query for you all as well.  I am 100% certain that some of the adjusters from my doors were missing when I got it. 

I am not sure what I am suppose to have.  SLS shows two per door I think.  One of the stops looks as if its got a top and bottom sop. Take a look at the photo as is quite hard to describe.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1393 on: January 20, 2015, 04:31:17 »
As well as the stopper issue I also would dearly love a photo of another pieces of rubber I can see on the SLS parts breakdown which never existed on my car when I purchased it.  I cant quite figure out where it goes from the parts list.
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1394 on: January 20, 2015, 07:04:52 »
Quote
.../.. pieces of rubber .../.. I can´t quite figure out where it goes
Andy,
Take a look in this thread:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12496.0
/Hans in Sweden
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1395 on: January 20, 2015, 07:58:16 »
Good find Hans,  wonder why they are listed in the MB parts book under doors rather than the hard top???

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

mbzse

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1396 on: January 20, 2015, 13:13:37 »
Hello again,
the rubber part is on the soft top frame. Here is a picture that shows its function, namely to cushion the bottom end of the soft top frame vertical stay,
over the B pillar. Prevent damage to the chrome cover. See borrowed picture which I put some text onto.
/Hans in Sweden

.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 22:56:53 by mbzse »
/Hans S

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1397 on: January 20, 2015, 20:02:02 »
Thanks Hans,  I checked my soft top this morning and indeed they have the pads.  I will leave it until I have this apart.  A big rule of mine is dont take stuff apart until you have time to work on it so it will probably have to wait for another couple of weeks at least.

In the meantime I am now trying to solve another little mystery.  I remember taking off some earth straps attached to either the tach or speedo cables, perhaps both.  Now that its come time to put them back I cant figure out where they go.  I also have a mystery third cable.  Does anyone know where this one goes.  Photos of all three locations would be fantastic.  I have looked in the parts breakdown and cant find them also did a search in here using various keywords which turned up nada.

Sent a message off to SLS to see if they have the straps as well. They are pretty tatty so think I will replace them.

Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car

66andBlue

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1398 on: January 20, 2015, 22:18:57 »
Andy,
perhaps these photos might help taking care of two of the three strips.
The 3rd strip is shown in Figure 11 in the suppression installation instructions in the technical manual.
Just download and take a look: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Radio
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 22:59:28 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

andyburns

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Re: Restoration Difficulty Level
« Reply #1399 on: January 24, 2015, 20:23:07 »
Thanks Alfred.  Think the RHD locations may be a bit different but those pics did help.  Still a mystery to where the third cable goes.  SLS suggested it may be the clock.  My car didn't have a clock in it when I purchased it so it wont be that.  Then they suggested it was the engine to sub frame earth strap.  I thought that a bit odd but could be a possibility.

The last couple of days have been hard as my back is playing up a bit.  I forged ahead and got into the chrome waist moldings.  Backed all eight pieces with PVC tape to prevent chaffing and vibrations.  Then had to drill out a few holes where the last owner had used wood screws to hold the molding on.  I welded them back up during the panel phase and then re-drilled them yesterday.  Quite a nervous exercise.  Definitely a case of measure 20 cut once. 

Cutting in the new rubber molding was a bit of an exercise.  I started off by trying to cut the pieces to size before fitting and also cutting the small 45 chambers on each end.  But but the second or third molding I had changed my technique and just fitted the rubber off the spool and cut only when I needed to.  Got a much tighter fit and then just tidied up with a Stanley knife. 

All in all happy with the result.  The devil is definitely in the detail!
Andy Burns, Auckland New Zealand
1963 230sl
1967 250s w108
1969 BMW 2002
2007 Mitsubishi i car