Author Topic: VW Diesel Deception  (Read 33692 times)

scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2015, 17:08:03 »
Wow, have you flow in to LA recently?  It's a descent into an orange cloud.
It's not remotely like it was 20, 30 years ago. 
Scott Allen
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2015, 17:21:46 »
While driving to work in the vehicle under scrutiny, I was thinking about this. I don't buy the sacrifcing emissions for better performance and consumption.
1) VW touted this engine as "clean diesel" and low fuel consumption. Well one out of two ain't bad.
2) The performance of this zippy engine wasn't really marketed through VW. So if they aren't marketing the performance, why not lower that and decrease the emissions and avoid the scandal. This engine has tons of power and can easily sacrifice some if that would work.
3) the engine can meet emissions at least for a short time.

My 2 cents is that this engine CANNOT survive long term in the clean mode. If it was just a matter of tweaking, enigine size, gear ratio and many others all could be adjusted to get where they want to be with emissions. Again I think their investment of many millions ended in the conclusion that the engine won't survive the emissions warranty period in clean mode. Peter brought up the emissions warranty period and is a good point. They would spend millions replacing the whatever would go out under that warranty. Of course, now they will pay billions.    
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2015, 17:33:22 »
My 2 cents is that this engine CANNOT survive long term in the clean mode. If it was just a matter of tweaking, enigine size, gear ratio and many others all could be adjusted to get where they want to be with emissions. Again I think their investment of many millions ended in the conclusion that the engine won't survive the emissions warranty period in clean mode. Peter brought up the emissions warranty period and is a good point. They would spend millions replacing the whatever would go out under that warranty. Of course, now they will pay billions.    
We really don't know what the options are for VW, but they probably do.  It's probably not in VW Group's best interest to talk about what they can do until they find out what kind of deal they can strike with the EPA and consumers.   I'm sure they have ideas, and I'm sure that the solutions will be based on what is the least expensive path for VW.

Personally I'm thinking of removing all the VW badges from my 2010 Jetta, or making an X through each badge with red tape, or some other badge of shame.
Scott Allen
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2015, 17:35:02 »
Does anyone recall the number of 3.0 8 cylinder engines that BMW _replaced_ for owners under their engine failure problem in the E34 cars?   That wasn't a deception or scandal, just a bad engineering problem.  But I'm sure it cost them.
Scott Allen
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twistedtree

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2015, 21:47:06 »
I wonder whether any company is allowed to declare bankruptcy as long as they are very able to pay. Probably would be deemed misuse of bankruptcy laws that should be there to protect companies that are about to fall over under debt, not companies that don't like to pay their debts. Probably VW is a lot of payments to duped customers away from that status.

No, you can't just declare bankruptcy because you want to get our of debts.  I don't know the exact formula, but you basically need to own more than you are worth.  VW suddenly has a massive liability that they didn't have a few days ago.  Looking at a worst case for the US, 0.5M cars at a rough value of $25k each is $12.2B if my math is right.  That's a very large and sudden change in the company's liabilities.   Their market cap I heard is now about $40B, but like I said I'm not sure exactly how you calculate whether you are underwater or not. If the liability extends to the world wide population of 11M cars, then your are talking about a liability of $275B which is 5x the value of the whole company.  They have made one hell of a mess and nobody is going to win except the lawyers.
Peter Hayden
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twistedtree

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2015, 21:58:31 »
While driving to work in the vehicle under scrutiny, I was thinking about this. I don't buy the sacrifcing emissions for better performance and consumption.
1) VW touted this engine as "clean diesel" and low fuel consumption. Well one out of two ain't bad.
2) The performance of this zippy engine wasn't really marketed through VW. So if they aren't marketing the performance, why not lower that and decrease the emissions and avoid the scandal. This engine has tons of power and can easily sacrifice some if that would work.
3) the engine can meet emissions at least for a short time.

My 2 cents is that this engine CANNOT survive long term in the clean mode. If it was just a matter of tweaking, enigine size, gear ratio and many others all could be adjusted to get where they want to be with emissions. Again I think their investment of many millions ended in the conclusion that the engine won't survive the emissions warranty period in clean mode. Peter brought up the emissions warranty period and is a good point. They would spend millions replacing the whatever would go out under that warranty. Of course, now they will pay billions.    

My money is on this theory too.  No performance gain is worth the risk they took.  But the launch of an entire family of vehicles might be.  They clearly bet their whole family of 2L diesel cars on this incinerator technology rather than DEF, and my guess is that as they approached the finish line there was a big oh-**** realization that although they could manage to pass the test, the incinerator couldn't meet the full operating spectrum of the engines.  So what's a greedy, egotistical executive to do?  Delay the whole family of cars and go back to the drawing board to add DEF, including robbing valuable interior space for the equipment and DEF tank, not to mention the added cost?  Or celebrate the fact that you can pass the test, ignore the pesky details about other modes of operation, launch a heroic new family of cars, and collect a massive bonus?  Humm, let me think about that.....
Peter Hayden
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twistedtree

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2015, 22:13:45 »
Does anyone recall the number of 3.0 8 cylinder engines that BMW _replaced_ for owners under their engine failure problem in the E34 cars?   That wasn't a deception or scandal, just a bad engineering problem.  But I'm sure it cost them.

I don't know any of the details, and am wondering if that's the engine in my BMW but..... This sort of thing happens and is the nightmare of every product manufacturer.  I've had some close calls myself where for a while we thought we had one of these disasters on our hands.  But they usually happen through honest screw ups, not through premeditated deception, and good companies suck it up and deal with it.  The VW smog-gate is a Bernie Madoff or Enron scale fraud
Peter Hayden
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2015, 22:15:37 »
Hey! I'd like some of that bonus for my misery, time loss and emotional stress (I'm building a case here).

You are absolutely correct. Laywers - 1 Everybody else - 0.

This was a risk/loss business decision all the way once they discovered the facts. Just didn't go the way the hoped. That is what happens when you become the world's largest with an ego to match.
Wallace Wheeler
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2015, 22:26:54 »
I've had some close calls myself where for a while we thought we had one of these disasters on our hands.  But they usually happen through honest screw ups, not through premeditated deception, and good companies suck it up and deal with it. 

Peter, you sound as if you are a manufacturer like myself. Been there, done that and hope not to do it again. Interesting that your comments are from the same viewpoint. Unlike most recalls where the issue is discovered after production, this is premeditated prior to production and therfore that much more heinous.

Could have been stoppped.

 
Wallace Wheeler
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Benz Dr.

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2015, 23:50:09 »
Peter, you sound as if you are a manufacturer like myself. Been there, done that and hope not to do it again. Interesting that your comments are from the same viewpoint. Unlike most recalls where the issue is discovered after production, this is premeditated prior to production and therefore that much more heinous.

Could have been stopped.

 

                                          Now there's word I haven't used in a while............ ' heinous.'

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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2015, 02:55:08 »
Heinous - That's just the kind of high level crowd you get here. Even spelled correctly!

I have a question that I do not know the answer to. So say if my diesel produces X% of NOx per gallon of diesel and a gas pick up truck produces x/2% NOx per gallon of gas. But yet the pick up truck uses 2X gallons of gas per mile versus my diesel. Does that make the part per million (PPM) of NOx the same per mile? What ever the numbers, I use less fuel per mile than a truck and so I actually put out less NOx into the atmosphere than the truck?

Maybe have a beer or two before you answer.
Wallace Wheeler
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twistedtree

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2015, 03:41:07 »
Comparing gas and diesel exhaust doesn't really work since their makeup is so different.  Here's what I remember.  CO and hydrocarbons are the big things regulated in gas cars, and it's NOx and particulate matter for diesels.  Diesels produce essentially zero CO, their "hydrocarbons" are in the form of particulate matter, and NOx is unique to diesels.

Parts per million, or PPM, is just that.  It's a density of some component element in any given quantity of a larger mixture.  It can also be expressed as a percentage, yet a very small one.  So for any given volume of exhaust gas, some portion is allowed to be your noxious element of choice.  Since it's a portion of your total exhaust, the more exhaust you put out, the greater absolute quantity of noxious element that you put out.  So the more gallons of fuel that you burn, the more pollutants you put in the air, which makes intuitive sense.  So a car that gets better mileage will produce fewer pollutants because it will burn less fuel.  But other than a few half hearted efforts to improve MPG, only the PPM of pollutants is regulated, and you are free to drive as big a fuel hog as you wish, and hence pollute as much as you want.
Peter Hayden
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2015, 03:51:34 »
How does an error such as this happen?  I suspect an objective look would focus on two strong, ego-driven executives, Piech and Winterkorn, often at odds with each other but driven by common goals.  The problems with the diesels were there for a long time but who was going to bell the cat, so to speak, and clearly inform those two and risk career damage and more, shooting the messenger being not unheard of in these situations.  Interestingly, other car mfr's tried to achieve the same results as VW but couldn't.  Analogous, and easy to understand after the fact, is how, with a room full of expensive equipment, masses of charts and highly trained sailors, does a Navy ship run aground?  Almost invariably, a minor navigational error goes unreported or missed and it builds upon itself until...crunch!  The tough minded, results-focused, brook-no-discussion executive gets his result.  Shades of this can be found throughout history: Gallipoli, Custer at Little Big Horn, Charge of the Light Brigade, Columbia and so on.  The shame of this is that a lot of innocent people: employees, customers, shareholders, vendors, dealers and others will suffer.  Finally, IMHO, while the mentioned folks may receive some compensation, the big winner will be our Gov't, which will collect massive fines without admitting its share of guilt for having accepted poorly designed emissions tests.
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2015, 08:29:12 »
 Finally, IMHO, while the mentioned folks may receive some compensation, the big winner will be our Gov't, which will collect massive fines without admitting its share of guilt for having accepted poorly designed emissions tests.
I don't share the belief that our Gov't (or the EU) are to blame for having poorly designed emissions tests.  And it remains to be seen what, if any, fines will be collected.  I'm hoping for the maximum, and I'm holding VW to blame.
Scott Allen
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2015, 16:03:57 »
And the rest of the world is getting on-board with halting VW sales of TDI and conducting investigations...
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34365794
Scott Allen
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twistedtree

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2015, 18:14:02 »
I drove by a VW dealer earlier today and felt bad for them.  Just imagine their inventory of new and used TDIs that are now on lockdown.  Who eats the cost of carrying that inventory for what will probably be 3-6 months at best?  Probably the dealer.  Up until now, I've never felt bad for a dealer.  Nobody wins here.
Peter Hayden
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2015, 00:23:40 »
What ever way it goes, I own a pretty new VW Diesel and it is a fantastic vehicle.  They are not planning to stop any sales here in Oz at this point that I have heard about and are still advertising on TV. 

I wouldn’t bet on getting your money back. maybe a tweak to the electronics at best.  Bit like some of the US companies in the GFC, too big to fail.
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2015, 06:53:17 »
FWIW, I read yesterday that emission level requirements are much less stringest in EU than US: 30 (something particles per something else) compared to 80 such particles in EU. So it may be much easier to address in EU and so less costly/difficult than in US.
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2015, 09:42:08 »
VW screwed up... no doubt. And got caught - I am sure all of them game that system

But from London there's a certain irony in the land of the 7 litre F150 going apeshit over a little 4 pot 2 litre engine. Perhaps VW should have registered their cars as trucks instead!

Again, not saying they are not culpable, just the (outward) double standard on matters "green"
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2015, 12:33:16 »
VW screwed up... no doubt. And got caught - I am sure all of them game that system

But from London there's a certain irony in the land of the 7 litre F150 going apeshit over a little 4 pot 2 litre engine. Perhaps VW should have registered their cars as trucks instead!

Again, not saying they are not culpable, just the (outward) double standard on matters "green"

Hey, that's "the American Way"  ;)
Peter Hayden
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2015, 20:44:03 »
But from London there's a certain irony in the land of the 7 litre F150 going apeshit over a little 4 pot 2 litre engine. Perhaps VW should have registered their cars as trucks instead!

That was kind of my point back a bit about the absolute amount of pollutants per mile from a VW diesel versus a large truck. And yes here in Dallas, the epicenter of large vehicles, at least 50% of the vehicles on the road are big SUVs/ trucks. So I don't see the urgency in actually fixing the problem with the VW cars. The sample size is too small in the US.

Fixing the problem with the decision making is another story and is the real problem.   
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2015, 17:30:02 »
Well I am not about to agree with everyone driving large SUV's and pickups as daily transportation but even with the increased fuel consumption compared to a diesel VW, these large vehicles are not emitting pollutants equal to the possibly 40 times over the allowable limits that VW may be spewing. Since one large vehicle uses 4 times the fuel and one VW emits 40 times the emissions, one VW equals 10 large SUV/Truck.     
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Peter van Es

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2015, 18:40:07 »
What I’m interested in is what will happen. Let’s assume that VW Group are the only ones caught. This despite truck manufacturers having used similar tricks in the past, having been caught, and having been fined.

Everyone in the Netherlands that I know believes that both fuel efficiency testing and CO2 testing are bogus when compared to real life performance. All we agree is that it is one way of comparing models of different manufacturers, but not necessarily the way that conforms with our driving styles or usage patterns. E.g. I drive a 2004 Volkswagen Touareg 2.5ltr Diesel – but daily highway mileage, and my wife drives a smaller, more economical 1.8ltr petrol car… but mostly short distances and around town, and I get much better mileage.

Two litre Diesel engines are amazing engines from a performance perspective. Excellent fuel efficiency combined with amazing torque, and therefore acceleration. In the Netherlands, 2 litre 4 cylinder diesel engines in VW Golfs may not feel sporty, but they zip and whiz around you at all times. These engines are used to yield from 250 NM all the way up to 400 NM of torque, and HP’s from 110 to 204. All depending on programming and few ancillaries. And they are also used in much bigger, heavier cars such as Passats and Transporters, and Audi's.

So clearly, by tweaking the software, I’m sure these engines could be made to pass tests, and indeed to perform much better in real-life situations with fewer bad emissions. Sure you’d lose some performance, but especially in the US, you’d hardly notice it in real-world usage. Remember, these little engines have power to spare.

The key issue is: is VW going to be punished for cheating, or for polluting? If it’s the latter, they should be allowed to reprogram engines, and that’s that. If you want to get vindictive, then we’d burn the company. The legal culture in the US, lawsuits and all, governments out to collect fines, it’s likely to go towards “lets punish VW for cheating”. And I fear they’ll go bankrupt.

Other European, Asian and perhaps even US car manufacturers (who probably have egg on their faces too because I think all manufacturers try to “game” the tests) would have a field day. Whole categories of cars suddenly available to pick up. GM with the Opel Astra, gunning for the Golf bracket, together with Toyota, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat and Ford. The Passat, the same.

However, we would lose some iconic market leaders. The Volkswagen UP, the Volkswagen Transporter. Will Porsche survive? Audi, Skoda and Seat will all suffer. And what about Bentley or Lamborghini? The landscape will change… for the worse. Over 800.000 people all around Europe directly or indirectly depend on VW group for their livelihood.

I would argue for a non-vindictive, non-punitive solution. Not only will market values of affected VW’s hold much better, and therefore damages to owners be reduced, but the cars, after reprogramming, will be just fine. And, let’s be car lovers: we don’t really want to lose these iconic brands and cars.

Peter
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2015, 19:03:54 »
This is a pretty ugly situation. A PR nightmare.

The astoundingly arrogant and as it turns out, pretty stupid VW engineers thought they were "gaming the system" and "cheating on a test". What makes them, and their management so seemingly blind is that they ignored the fact that some customers actually care about the environment; so, having a car that now pollutes 40x the limit really annoys them. It also is an eco-nightmare. What little inroads diesel has made in the USA might take years to recover.

Nearly all other manufacturers who put "clean diesels" in their cars have relied on the proven, if not invasive and costly technology of urea-injection; diesel exhaust fruit or DEF.

What surprises me is that so many of the car companies just couldn't figure out how VW did it. Nobody immediately suspected cheating, but nobody just took a car, stuck an EGA down the tailpipe and ran the darn car on the road! Had anyone done that the head-scratching engineers at the other companies would have figured this out years ago. I suspect that nobody bothered because aside from large trucks in the USA, diesels in cars are a relatively insignificant part of the passenger car market.

Any solution must make the customers whole and also fix the cars to make them meet standards. Anything less isn't acceptable. On the standard issue, they are dealing with the EPA, not NHTSA. EPA has some teeth, a bit more than the highway folks. They are less than pleased here...

On the sticker on one of our Ford Hybrids, the number was "inflated" a bit, and they sent out a check covering the cost differential of the fuel over the life of the lease, something like $200. On the other hybrid we have, they had adjusted downward the mileage ratings so the sticker was more accurate.
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2015, 23:20:00 »
mdsalemi write in part;

On the sticker on one of our Ford Hybrids, the number was "inflated" a bit, and they sent out a check covering the cost differential of the fuel over the life of the lease, something like $200. On the other hybrid we have, they had adjusted downward the mileage ratings so the sticker was more accurate.
 
Michael, isn`t this cheating? - or are there degrees of cheating?

 
 
 
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