Pagoda SL Group
Off Topic => Way Off Topic => Topic started by: zak on September 22, 2015, 00:09:27
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Wow. I was shocked to read what VW tried to pull off with their 4 cyl diesels.
Very serious stuff with major consequences for them.
It's criminal.
jz
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Oh Lucy, you got some splainin to do! :o
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This is going to be bad for VW. If there was an easy fix they would have done it already. oxides of Nitrogen are reduced by reducing the temperature of combustion by reducing boost, compression or cooling the air going into the engine. The fix is going to be bigger engines or reduced performance and nobody is going to like it.
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As long as the time for 0-60mph matters companies will try their best - legal or not - to satisfy the US customer.
Even here, on a different board, the 0-60 number was used to pooh pooh the 3.27 axle conversion choice.
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Yea great and I have the diesel engine. Had it since 2012. Too bad because it is really quick and smooth. Usually get 35 MPG in mixed city driving.
I sure won't like it! Really makes you wonder who else is doing it.
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Hi Wallace,
it is a bummer for sure and I hope some higher-up lands in jail.
When you write 35 mpg, is this based on what the on-board computer tells you or your own accumulated data?
It is widely rumored/known? that the automakers tweak these computer data to look better, for example, by adjusting speedometer and odometer to read higher (~8%) than actual, not measuring consumption when stopping, etc.
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Interesting datapoints:
1. My VW Jetta speedometer (not diesel) reads what GPS says the car is doing. Odd.
2. VW stock price - It's been at about $170 for the last month, except since last Friday, September 18.
Friday Sept 18 $164.
Tuesday Sept 22 $106.
I don't think the recall is going to involve replacing engines. I think it's going to be modifying the firmware such that the car has less power, lower mileage, cleaner emissions. It also might be optional for customers to do the recall.
The real cost of this is that VW lied for years and got caught.
Scott
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I was curious as to what parameters were programmed into the software to signal the fact that an emissions test was being performed as opposed to normal driving. A little internet exploration revealed this as one possible method: http://jalopnik.com/understanding-the-test-mode-that-let-vw-trick-the-emiss-1732175835
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No, that is real world mileage. I check the fuel receipts every time I fill up. I mostly drive on inner city "highways". Even though there are stop lights, they are spread out and the speed limit is around 40-45. So just about the perfect speed for the overdrive to kick in with really low RPMs. Yes, the mileage indicator is off for sure. It once said I got 52MPG going down a two lane country road @ 60MPH. Yea right!
I don't think they will remove the engine, just software change. I have the sports wagon which is an incredible car to drive for what it is. The handling, braking and acceleration are fantastic. Oh well 2 out of 3 ain't bad. I still really love the car overall and VW really screwed up by doing this. I hope they don't require the owners to do the recall.
Somebody will hang for this I am sure.
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This couldn't have happened at a worse time for VW. Over the last year their sales in the US were finally starting to move up. I guess Porche is going to have to carry VW now.
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Wallace,
do you have the Type EA 189 engine in your car?
"The E.P.A. has ordered Volkswagen to recall almost a half-million vehicles sold in the United States from 2009 to 2015. The affected Golf, Passat, Jetta and Beetle cars were equipped with 2-liter diesel engines. Some Audi models also use the same diesel engine."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html
How VW got caught:
"Even with the looming punishment, the company almost got away with it. In fact, it most likely would have if not for a strange twist of fate and the curiosity of several auto researchers."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-vw-to-admit-fault.html
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Two things.
1. "They are in a heap of trouble". I have no idea of what the fix with the cars will be, what the extent of the recall will be, whether or not they'll be any jail time, but this is certain--there will be boatloads of money required to be sent from VW to the US Treasury. This might rank up there with GM's problems.
2. Talk around here amongst the FCA people is that there will be a merger between VW and FCA. Oh yeah, we call that a "merger of equals".
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500,000 cars or 11 million cars?
http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/
"Volkswagen stunned investors Tuesday by admitting that the problem was much bigger than that: internal investigations had found significant discrepancies in 11 million vehicles worldwide."
I purchased a CPO BMW maybe 10 years ago. After owning and driving 3 years I discovered that the car had been falsely represented by the dealer at time of purchase (which effected the warranty coverage). The resolution of the breach was for the offending dealership to purchase back the car from me for the original price. And I got a check from them when I dropped off the car.
Imagine if it were to be ruled that owners had the option of returning the car for purchase price. It seems like a reasonable resolution to me. And I don't see another way where the owner isn't getting screwed.
Bad job VW.
I believe that sales were stopped on Sunday on 2015 VW diesel cars.
Scott
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I think it's a toss up between owning one of thse cars or owning stock in the company. If all your looking at is slightly less mileage than stated - big deal. If you own stock that is a bigger deal.
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I think it's a toss up between owning one of thse cars or owning stock in the company. If all your looking at is slightly less mileage than stated - big deal. If you own stock that is a bigger deal.
Shareholders are and should be outraged. For the most part VW diesel owners love their cars, but part of it is because of the wonderful engine that it turns out isn't as wonderful as they were told. So some of them will have some issues with that, others won't. Either way, consumers didn't get what they thought they were getting, EPA got screwed and will get even with VW, and VW share holders will be furious at what may well drive VW into the ground for years to come.
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Yes, the 2.0 engine is it. Being an owner of this car, I still love it like crazy. Even if the performce drops some with the mileage, I will keep it. I am I pissed? Sure, but I am not going to be dumb at sell it at a drastically reduced price. The torque is actually almost too much because the front tires spin quite easily. So I could actually do without a bit of that. Mileage will hurt and because diesel is typically higher than gasoline.
The sports wagon tdi is so beatifully balanced, it just stinks they screwed it up with this. The people who will be most angry are the ones that bought it for environmental reasons over say a Prius. That is who you will hear from the most. Hopefully the recall won't be mandatory, although I am sure that is dreaming.
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Wallace,
Hard to imagine how you could be forced to comply with a recall, but who knows. In the meantime, I am sure you will have an opportunity to participate in a class action lawsuit, watch your mail for the offer!
Best,
g
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For those who don't know, the 2.0L four cylinder VW diesel uses the "carbon burner" similar to the old W123 diesels. The larger 3.0L uses the blue stuff instead. That is why the 3.0L are not included in the recall. Cost would be my reasoning why the difference as the 2.0L are in the cheaper cars. Audi uses the 3.0L for most except for the cheap cars. I don't think Porsche even uses the 2.0L. I think Mercedes diesels all use the blue stuff. The carbon burner has to be serviced/replaced at 120,000 miles. I have 40K on mine now and it runs like a champ.
To me, one of the stupidest things is that all the while this deception was taking place, VW touted their "clean diesel". So lets not draw any attention to this..... I can easily lose some HP and torque and still be happy. Crazy, but at least no lives were at risk.
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Yes I agree with Wallace. VW 4 banger diesels used the older, cheaper technology by somehow being able to pass the EPA testing.
Mercedes went to the Bluetec urea system on both their 4 and 6 cyl diesels. My DD is an ML CDI and it flies with 240 HP, but the newer version ML diesel uses the Blustec urea "spray mist" system that doesn't choke the engine with filters but just treats the exhaust has 10 more HP .
VW is in a big heap of trouble.
jz
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Canada has also halted the sales of new TDI cars. US has halted dealer sales of new TDI and used TDI cars from VW dealers.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34325005
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Being ignorant of how Europe compares to the US in emissions testing, how will this effect the TDI cars on that side of the pond? That is a more significant question because of the popularity of diesels in Europe when compared to the US. Was this device solely for the US/Canada?
Stepping back and looking at history, I suppose you could have predicated something like this because of VW's huge climb to success recently. People are so predictable and history repeats itself again and again and.........
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Being ignorant of how Europe compares to the US in emissions testing, how will this effect the TDI cars on that side of the pond? That is a more significant question because of the popularity of diesels in Europe when compared to the US. Was this device solely for the US/Canada?
Emissions standards are highest in California, then Federal US, then EU. There are about 500,000 cars with this "feature" in the United States, but 11 million world-wide. So yes, this is on non-US cars, but it is unclear how much various parts of the world will care about it. I would doubt that less "green" countries will care at all. But I would think that the EU would care.
Stepping back and looking at history, I suppose you could have predicated something like this because of VW's huge climb to success recently. People are so predictable and history repeats itself again and again and.........
No one can imagine this happening. It tarnishes VW and Germany and shames both. I've half a mind to remove the VW branding from my (non-diesel) 2010 Jetta and replace it with something else that fits but wouldn't be recognized here, such as Skoda badging...
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The big issue here is not the potential decrease in fuel economy or engine power. The issue is that these engines have NOT met the emission standards other than when in test mode. I heard numbers like 40 times the exhaust emissions than what is demanded by the EPA and CARB. VW may never recover from this.
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The big issue here is not the potential decrease in fuel economy or engine power. The issue is that these engines have NOT met the emission standards other than when in test mode. I heard numbers like 40 times the exhaust emissions than what is demanded by the EPA and CARB. VW may never recover from this.
Well YEAH,
That leaves them with the options of:
1. software so it's always in test mode and might run clean
2. adding the blue-def system to the car - a very costly recall
3. buying back all their cars - even more costly
AND paying what I hope to be huge fines.
I honestly would like to see VW end up refunding the purchase price for every single car. And I can imagine it happening, and imagine it destroying them for the next 10 years.
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Lets just say the software can solve the problem. Why didn't they just use that to begin with and avoid this disaster? Or is that the engine cannot run on test (clean mode) for very long without becoming unreliable. In that case, a simple software change won't help. I am afraid they discovered that this diesel system (non blue-def) can never get to the numbers that the EPA demands long term. Maybe they just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.
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Lets just say the software can solve the problem. Why didn't they just use that to begin with and avoid this disaster? Or is that the engine cannot run on test (clean mode) for very long without becoming unreliable. In that case, a simple software change won't help. I am afraid they discovered that this diesel system (non blue-def) can never get to the numbers that the EPA demands long term. Maybe they just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.
They didn't do the blue-def system to begin with because it costs interior space for the tank and (I've heard) about 10 hp and a lot more money. It's all about money. If they can get away with something that out performs everyone else for less money, it puts them in the position they were 2 weeks ago. Great product, well-proven, great reputation. So much for that.
If (and it's a big if) they can modify it with a software change it's pretty much guaranteed to make a dent in performance and economy.
Any way you slice it, they cheated, they knew they were cheating, and they got caught after 6 or 7 years. It's both civil and criminal violations that we are talking about, and at a minimum heads will roll and a lot of money will roll with it. Losers are the shareholders and the owners. There is no winner, except perhaps BMW and Mercedes (unless they are cheating too). And if they haven't been, it's pay-back time.
There is a lot of on-line discussion about this possibly being the end of diesel. France is talking of phasing it out because of environmental impact. But who gives a damn about what France does really. Lots of the world will be just fine with higher pollution. I mean does anyone really think that this is going to change things in China? No probably not. But it will in the US and in the EU.
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.....There is no winner, except perhaps BMW and Mercedes (unless they are cheating too). And if they haven't been, it's pay-back time......
It appears that BMW did NOT cheat:
"In the tests, conducted over five pre-defined routes categorized based on their predominant driving conditions (highway, urban/suburban, and rural-up/downhill driving), real-world nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions from the Jetta exceeded the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 (at full useful life) standard by 15 to 35 times. For the Passat, real-world NOx emissions were 5 to 20 times the standard. The BMW vehicle was generally at or below the standard, and only exceeded it during rural uphill operating conditions. (See the detailed fact sheet below for more on this study.)"
Perhaps VW may not be the only one:
"Drew Kodjak emphasized that excessive pollutant emissions during real-world driving is not something confined to the United States. ICCT research studies in Europe have repeatedly found large and growing gaps between real world emissions and the regulatory certification levels. “This is a global problem that will require a coordinated global solution,” said Kodjak."
http://www.theicct.org/news/epas-notice-violation-clean-air-act-volkswagen-press-statement
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I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg. It will be interesting if any others get caught, gas or diesel.
I bet this is the end of diesels in cars in the US. Barely had a foothold to begin. The diesel packages cost way more, prices per gallon are higher especially in Winter, and now the environmental thing is gone. With electrics and hybrids, diesels don't stand a chance.
GM killed it in the 80's. VW killed it in 2015.
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Well VW _may_ have killed it for the United States. Diesel prices are all over the map. Right now in CA and AZ they are lower than gas. If BMW were to take a change in attitude and actually import an entry level diesel they might be well-positioned to absorb some of the disgruntled VW owners and prospective buyers. Instead BMW focuses on 6 cylinder gas cars (even for their smallest cars) which seems kind of crazy to me given this opportunity.
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The US marketeers (not to be confused mouseketeers) dictate that the diesel option is a premium model. Shouldn't be, but it is. In Europe they have the entry level diesel. Even to this day, Mercedes has it as a higher level trim. Frustrating because I would have bought an entry level diesel from Mercedes had they offered it. That is why I went with VW because it was a more reasonable cost.
I agree that the entry level diesel with a basic option list is untapped market. Even in trucks until very recently, you had to get the 250 version to get a diesel. I believe Dodge now offers a diesel in the 150 trim. Were they trying to get you up to a 250 ($$$$) and justifying it because of reliabity with the increase torque of a diesel?
I have discovered in my three years of ownership, that ULSD diesel prices rise this time a year because supply is split with home heating oil. They are building stocks for the winter. Hard winter? Higher diesel prices. In the late winter, prices always start coming down. So far, every year has held true. In Dallas, diesel is about .35 higher. At one point two months ago, about the same.
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The US marketeers (not to be confused mouseketeers) dictate that the diesel option is a premium model. Shouldn't be, but it is. In Europe they have the entry level diesel. Even to this day, Mercedes has it as a higher level trim. Frustrating because I would have bought an entry level diesel from Mercedes had they offered it. That is why I went with VW because it was a more reasonable cost.
Yes, VW is the only one in the US that didn't limit the diesel engine to more expensive cars. But having said that, it IS significantly more expensive than a gas car and I think that is because of high demand and it being a more expensive engine to produce.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-343387
COMPETITIVE markets by their very nature spawn deception and trickery.”
Robert Shiller
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http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-343387
Corrected link: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34340301
In other news...
VW Chief Executive Winterkorn resigned today. I wonder if he will end up in jail.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34340997
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Can you google the title and fix the link please?
"Car emissions tests: Not fit for purpose?"
Sitting on an airplane with marginal wifi, at the moment.
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link fixed in my post.
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Pity the poor VW owner in the United States as the individual states try to outdo each other by rushing specific legislation or DMV regulations designed to remove these polluting monsters from the road. Soon it will become impossible for one of these cars, recall modified or not, to pass specially modified emission tests in any state and the owners will be left with valueless vehicles.
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This morning's admission that VW also gamed the tests in Europe makes this pretty bad news.
I have a BMW 640d and the combination of acceleration, refinement and economy is stunning. By comparison our 3 litre 125i seems a bit puny and very, very thirsty. I will be sorry if the performance diesel engine is on the way out.
I also worry about a general backlash against older cars with the insulation which our Pagodas enjoy from pollution testing gradually being withdrawn beginning with a ban from city centres
What now of Herr Winterkorn's plans to buy the Red Bull Formula 1 team?
Regards
Andrew
1966 230SL
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Sort of interesting.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/business/international/volkswagen-chief-martin-winterkorn-resigns-amid-emissions-scandal.html?emc=edit_th_20150924&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=34000181&_r=0
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Pity the poor VW owner in the United States as the individual states try to outdo each other by rushing specific legislation or DMV regulations designed to remove these polluting monsters from the road. Soon it will become impossible for one of these cars, recall modified or not, to pass specially modified emission tests in any state and the owners will be left with valueless vehicles.
WTF? CA and NY enacted stricter emissions standards and it was a good thing. Smog in Los Angeles is basically a thing of the past. The standards have been difficult for gasoline cars as well as diesel cars. As for the owners being left with valueless vehicles, I'm pretty confident that the owners are going to be well-compensated for VW's offense. As for the vehicles becoming worthless, I highly doubt that. They will become worthless when they are 10 to 15 years old, like all new cars. And when I'm at the junkyard looking for old parts I'll start seeing more 2009-2015 VWs (I already see the new beetle at the junkyard), but it isn't because of EPA, it's because new cars are not financially designed to last that long. We will have our trusty W123 300Ds out there long after the TDI cars are dead, polluting and putting along happily.
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I'm not selling mine until the government prys it out my hands or as Scoot says, not worth fixing *. I like it too much. It is still a newish car and my daily driver which is why I have my old coupes that I REALLY love. Those VW diesels in the US are a tiny drop in the bucket as far as emissions. It is the crime that is worth pursuing.
* Or if VW pays market value which is not going to happen.
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* Or if VW pays market value which is not going to happen.
Like I said, I returned a car to a dealership after driving it for 3 years and got all of my money refunded except sales tax. The $38,000 fine per vehicle (or whatever it is) is far less than buying back all of the cars or giving the owners a huge chunk of cash. VW dug themselves a money pit.
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Just had my VW serviced_ All good ;D ;D
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By law in the US the car manufacturer must warranty everything related to the emissions for I think it's 7 years. And CA extends that to 10 years if I remember correctly. So one way or another VW is on the hook to remedy the problem, either by bringing the cars into compliance or buying them back. And that's before any EPA fines which I read can be as much as $37k per vehicle.
If VW were a US company, they would likely declare bankruptcy as a way to start shedding their liability over this. I don't know how the laws work in Germany, and I don't know whether is a separate VW North America corp that might be left holding the bag. I'm sure there are armies of lawyers looking at how to best quarantine the damage. This is clearly company-destroying magnitude stuff, but I honestly don't think it's in anyone's interest for VW to get destroyed. All benefit the most by figuring out how to solve the problem.
Speaking of the problem, I owned one of these cars a few years ago. Loved it, but that's neither here nor there regarding the problem. It was mentioned that unlike pretty much everyone else who uses the urea fluid (is that what it's called, or is that piss?), VW used some proprietary incineration method to get ride of the NOx, but only on the 2L engines. I think the $64,000 question here is whether this device simply needs to be turned back on under normal driving conditions and the problem is solved, though with reduced performance? Or if their proprietary device is actually not capable of meeting the full spectrum emissions requirements, in which case this is a much harder problem to solve. Since everyone else, including VW in their 3L engines, is using DEF to meet emissions requirements, I suspect the VW proprietary approach actually doesn't work under all conditions and that's what lead them into cheating in the first place.
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I'm not selling mine until the government prys it out my hands or as Scoot says, not worth fixing *. I like it too much. It is still a newish car and my daily driver which is why I have my old coupes that I REALLY love. Those VW diesels in the US are a tiny drop in the bucket as far as emissions. It is the crime that is worth pursuing.
* Or if VW pays market value which is not going to happen.
I think the problem here is that unless "fixed", your car is illegal to operate on the roads. In the near future nobody will do anything about it, but this is big enough that I expect the EPA and individual states will eventually require that cars be demonstrably brought into compliance.
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Smog in Los Angeles is basically a thing of the past.
Wow, have you flow in to LA recently? It's a descent into an orange cloud.
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I think the $64,000 question here is whether this device simply needs to be turned back on under normal driving conditions and the problem is solved, though with reduced performance? Or if their proprietary device is actually not capable of meeting the full spectrum emissions requirements, in which case this is a much harder problem to solve. Since everyone else, including VW in their 3L engines, is using DEF to meet emissions requirements, I suspect the VW proprietary approach actually doesn't work under all conditions and that's what lead them into cheating in the first place.
I agree and I don't think it can which as you say is why they cheated and risked getting caught. Probably spent millions developing the cheaper system only to find out it can't work LONG term reliably. Then they gambled. Seems like they would have worked hard since the 2009 introduction to change the issue. Who knows.
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I wonder whether any company is allowed to declare bankruptcy as long as they are very able to pay. Probably would be deemed misuse of bankruptcy laws that should be there to protect companies that are about to fall over under debt, not companies that don't like to pay their debts. Probably VW is a lot of payments to duped customers away from that status.
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It seems also possible that they installed this cheat code not because the car would not be able to run long-distance without it, but to provide better performance at lower consumption, at least that is what a lot of people in this thread seem to be saying. So it could be an easy technical fix, albeit with still a lot of fall-out for Volkswagen.
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It seems also possible that they installed this cheat code not because the car would not be able to run long-distance without it, but to provide better performance at lower consumption, at least that is what a lot of people in this thread seem to be saying. So it could be an easy technical fix, albeit with still a lot of fall-out for Volkswagen.
I find it interesting that VW hasn't commented on what the fix will be. I'm guessing it is going to involve a lot of haggling and bargaining with the EPA (for the US cars) and the fix will be based on what is least expensive to VW. I would think they are looking to cut a deal.
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Wow, have you flow in to LA recently? It's a descent into an orange cloud.
It's not remotely like it was 20, 30 years ago.
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While driving to work in the vehicle under scrutiny, I was thinking about this. I don't buy the sacrifcing emissions for better performance and consumption.
1) VW touted this engine as "clean diesel" and low fuel consumption. Well one out of two ain't bad.
2) The performance of this zippy engine wasn't really marketed through VW. So if they aren't marketing the performance, why not lower that and decrease the emissions and avoid the scandal. This engine has tons of power and can easily sacrifice some if that would work.
3) the engine can meet emissions at least for a short time.
My 2 cents is that this engine CANNOT survive long term in the clean mode. If it was just a matter of tweaking, enigine size, gear ratio and many others all could be adjusted to get where they want to be with emissions. Again I think their investment of many millions ended in the conclusion that the engine won't survive the emissions warranty period in clean mode. Peter brought up the emissions warranty period and is a good point. They would spend millions replacing the whatever would go out under that warranty. Of course, now they will pay billions.
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My 2 cents is that this engine CANNOT survive long term in the clean mode. If it was just a matter of tweaking, enigine size, gear ratio and many others all could be adjusted to get where they want to be with emissions. Again I think their investment of many millions ended in the conclusion that the engine won't survive the emissions warranty period in clean mode. Peter brought up the emissions warranty period and is a good point. They would spend millions replacing the whatever would go out under that warranty. Of course, now they will pay billions.
We really don't know what the options are for VW, but they probably do. It's probably not in VW Group's best interest to talk about what they can do until they find out what kind of deal they can strike with the EPA and consumers. I'm sure they have ideas, and I'm sure that the solutions will be based on what is the least expensive path for VW.
Personally I'm thinking of removing all the VW badges from my 2010 Jetta, or making an X through each badge with red tape, or some other badge of shame.
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Does anyone recall the number of 3.0 8 cylinder engines that BMW _replaced_ for owners under their engine failure problem in the E34 cars? That wasn't a deception or scandal, just a bad engineering problem. But I'm sure it cost them.
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I wonder whether any company is allowed to declare bankruptcy as long as they are very able to pay. Probably would be deemed misuse of bankruptcy laws that should be there to protect companies that are about to fall over under debt, not companies that don't like to pay their debts. Probably VW is a lot of payments to duped customers away from that status.
No, you can't just declare bankruptcy because you want to get our of debts. I don't know the exact formula, but you basically need to own more than you are worth. VW suddenly has a massive liability that they didn't have a few days ago. Looking at a worst case for the US, 0.5M cars at a rough value of $25k each is $12.2B if my math is right. That's a very large and sudden change in the company's liabilities. Their market cap I heard is now about $40B, but like I said I'm not sure exactly how you calculate whether you are underwater or not. If the liability extends to the world wide population of 11M cars, then your are talking about a liability of $275B which is 5x the value of the whole company. They have made one hell of a mess and nobody is going to win except the lawyers.
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While driving to work in the vehicle under scrutiny, I was thinking about this. I don't buy the sacrifcing emissions for better performance and consumption.
1) VW touted this engine as "clean diesel" and low fuel consumption. Well one out of two ain't bad.
2) The performance of this zippy engine wasn't really marketed through VW. So if they aren't marketing the performance, why not lower that and decrease the emissions and avoid the scandal. This engine has tons of power and can easily sacrifice some if that would work.
3) the engine can meet emissions at least for a short time.
My 2 cents is that this engine CANNOT survive long term in the clean mode. If it was just a matter of tweaking, enigine size, gear ratio and many others all could be adjusted to get where they want to be with emissions. Again I think their investment of many millions ended in the conclusion that the engine won't survive the emissions warranty period in clean mode. Peter brought up the emissions warranty period and is a good point. They would spend millions replacing the whatever would go out under that warranty. Of course, now they will pay billions.
My money is on this theory too. No performance gain is worth the risk they took. But the launch of an entire family of vehicles might be. They clearly bet their whole family of 2L diesel cars on this incinerator technology rather than DEF, and my guess is that as they approached the finish line there was a big oh-**** realization that although they could manage to pass the test, the incinerator couldn't meet the full operating spectrum of the engines. So what's a greedy, egotistical executive to do? Delay the whole family of cars and go back to the drawing board to add DEF, including robbing valuable interior space for the equipment and DEF tank, not to mention the added cost? Or celebrate the fact that you can pass the test, ignore the pesky details about other modes of operation, launch a heroic new family of cars, and collect a massive bonus? Humm, let me think about that.....
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Does anyone recall the number of 3.0 8 cylinder engines that BMW _replaced_ for owners under their engine failure problem in the E34 cars? That wasn't a deception or scandal, just a bad engineering problem. But I'm sure it cost them.
I don't know any of the details, and am wondering if that's the engine in my BMW but..... This sort of thing happens and is the nightmare of every product manufacturer. I've had some close calls myself where for a while we thought we had one of these disasters on our hands. But they usually happen through honest screw ups, not through premeditated deception, and good companies suck it up and deal with it. The VW smog-gate is a Bernie Madoff or Enron scale fraud
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Hey! I'd like some of that bonus for my misery, time loss and emotional stress (I'm building a case here).
You are absolutely correct. Laywers - 1 Everybody else - 0.
This was a risk/loss business decision all the way once they discovered the facts. Just didn't go the way the hoped. That is what happens when you become the world's largest with an ego to match.
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I've had some close calls myself where for a while we thought we had one of these disasters on our hands. But they usually happen through honest screw ups, not through premeditated deception, and good companies suck it up and deal with it.
Peter, you sound as if you are a manufacturer like myself. Been there, done that and hope not to do it again. Interesting that your comments are from the same viewpoint. Unlike most recalls where the issue is discovered after production, this is premeditated prior to production and therfore that much more heinous.
Could have been stoppped.
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Peter, you sound as if you are a manufacturer like myself. Been there, done that and hope not to do it again. Interesting that your comments are from the same viewpoint. Unlike most recalls where the issue is discovered after production, this is premeditated prior to production and therefore that much more heinous.
Could have been stopped.
Now there's word I haven't used in a while............ ' heinous.'
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Heinous - That's just the kind of high level crowd you get here. Even spelled correctly!
I have a question that I do not know the answer to. So say if my diesel produces X% of NOx per gallon of diesel and a gas pick up truck produces x/2% NOx per gallon of gas. But yet the pick up truck uses 2X gallons of gas per mile versus my diesel. Does that make the part per million (PPM) of NOx the same per mile? What ever the numbers, I use less fuel per mile than a truck and so I actually put out less NOx into the atmosphere than the truck?
Maybe have a beer or two before you answer.
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Comparing gas and diesel exhaust doesn't really work since their makeup is so different. Here's what I remember. CO and hydrocarbons are the big things regulated in gas cars, and it's NOx and particulate matter for diesels. Diesels produce essentially zero CO, their "hydrocarbons" are in the form of particulate matter, and NOx is unique to diesels.
Parts per million, or PPM, is just that. It's a density of some component element in any given quantity of a larger mixture. It can also be expressed as a percentage, yet a very small one. So for any given volume of exhaust gas, some portion is allowed to be your noxious element of choice. Since it's a portion of your total exhaust, the more exhaust you put out, the greater absolute quantity of noxious element that you put out. So the more gallons of fuel that you burn, the more pollutants you put in the air, which makes intuitive sense. So a car that gets better mileage will produce fewer pollutants because it will burn less fuel. But other than a few half hearted efforts to improve MPG, only the PPM of pollutants is regulated, and you are free to drive as big a fuel hog as you wish, and hence pollute as much as you want.
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How does an error such as this happen? I suspect an objective look would focus on two strong, ego-driven executives, Piech and Winterkorn, often at odds with each other but driven by common goals. The problems with the diesels were there for a long time but who was going to bell the cat, so to speak, and clearly inform those two and risk career damage and more, shooting the messenger being not unheard of in these situations. Interestingly, other car mfr's tried to achieve the same results as VW but couldn't. Analogous, and easy to understand after the fact, is how, with a room full of expensive equipment, masses of charts and highly trained sailors, does a Navy ship run aground? Almost invariably, a minor navigational error goes unreported or missed and it builds upon itself until...crunch! The tough minded, results-focused, brook-no-discussion executive gets his result. Shades of this can be found throughout history: Gallipoli, Custer at Little Big Horn, Charge of the Light Brigade, Columbia and so on. The shame of this is that a lot of innocent people: employees, customers, shareholders, vendors, dealers and others will suffer. Finally, IMHO, while the mentioned folks may receive some compensation, the big winner will be our Gov't, which will collect massive fines without admitting its share of guilt for having accepted poorly designed emissions tests.
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Finally, IMHO, while the mentioned folks may receive some compensation, the big winner will be our Gov't, which will collect massive fines without admitting its share of guilt for having accepted poorly designed emissions tests.
I don't share the belief that our Gov't (or the EU) are to blame for having poorly designed emissions tests. And it remains to be seen what, if any, fines will be collected. I'm hoping for the maximum, and I'm holding VW to blame.
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And the rest of the world is getting on-board with halting VW sales of TDI and conducting investigations...
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34365794
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I drove by a VW dealer earlier today and felt bad for them. Just imagine their inventory of new and used TDIs that are now on lockdown. Who eats the cost of carrying that inventory for what will probably be 3-6 months at best? Probably the dealer. Up until now, I've never felt bad for a dealer. Nobody wins here.
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What ever way it goes, I own a pretty new VW Diesel and it is a fantastic vehicle. They are not planning to stop any sales here in Oz at this point that I have heard about and are still advertising on TV.
I wouldn’t bet on getting your money back. maybe a tweak to the electronics at best. Bit like some of the US companies in the GFC, too big to fail.
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FWIW, I read yesterday that emission level requirements are much less stringest in EU than US: 30 (something particles per something else) compared to 80 such particles in EU. So it may be much easier to address in EU and so less costly/difficult than in US.
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VW screwed up... no doubt. And got caught - I am sure all of them game that system
But from London there's a certain irony in the land of the 7 litre F150 going apeshit over a little 4 pot 2 litre engine. Perhaps VW should have registered their cars as trucks instead!
Again, not saying they are not culpable, just the (outward) double standard on matters "green"
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VW screwed up... no doubt. And got caught - I am sure all of them game that system
But from London there's a certain irony in the land of the 7 litre F150 going apeshit over a little 4 pot 2 litre engine. Perhaps VW should have registered their cars as trucks instead!
Again, not saying they are not culpable, just the (outward) double standard on matters "green"
Hey, that's "the American Way" ;)
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But from London there's a certain irony in the land of the 7 litre F150 going apeshit over a little 4 pot 2 litre engine. Perhaps VW should have registered their cars as trucks instead!
That was kind of my point back a bit about the absolute amount of pollutants per mile from a VW diesel versus a large truck. And yes here in Dallas, the epicenter of large vehicles, at least 50% of the vehicles on the road are big SUVs/ trucks. So I don't see the urgency in actually fixing the problem with the VW cars. The sample size is too small in the US.
Fixing the problem with the decision making is another story and is the real problem.
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Well I am not about to agree with everyone driving large SUV's and pickups as daily transportation but even with the increased fuel consumption compared to a diesel VW, these large vehicles are not emitting pollutants equal to the possibly 40 times over the allowable limits that VW may be spewing. Since one large vehicle uses 4 times the fuel and one VW emits 40 times the emissions, one VW equals 10 large SUV/Truck.
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What I’m interested in is what will happen. Let’s assume that VW Group are the only ones caught. This despite truck manufacturers having used similar tricks in the past, having been caught, and having been fined.
Everyone in the Netherlands that I know believes that both fuel efficiency testing and CO2 testing are bogus when compared to real life performance. All we agree is that it is one way of comparing models of different manufacturers, but not necessarily the way that conforms with our driving styles or usage patterns. E.g. I drive a 2004 Volkswagen Touareg 2.5ltr Diesel – but daily highway mileage, and my wife drives a smaller, more economical 1.8ltr petrol car… but mostly short distances and around town, and I get much better mileage.
Two litre Diesel engines are amazing engines from a performance perspective. Excellent fuel efficiency combined with amazing torque, and therefore acceleration. In the Netherlands, 2 litre 4 cylinder diesel engines in VW Golfs may not feel sporty, but they zip and whiz around you at all times. These engines are used to yield from 250 NM all the way up to 400 NM of torque, and HP’s from 110 to 204. All depending on programming and few ancillaries. And they are also used in much bigger, heavier cars such as Passats and Transporters, and Audi's.
So clearly, by tweaking the software, I’m sure these engines could be made to pass tests, and indeed to perform much better in real-life situations with fewer bad emissions. Sure you’d lose some performance, but especially in the US, you’d hardly notice it in real-world usage. Remember, these little engines have power to spare.
The key issue is: is VW going to be punished for cheating, or for polluting? If it’s the latter, they should be allowed to reprogram engines, and that’s that. If you want to get vindictive, then we’d burn the company. The legal culture in the US, lawsuits and all, governments out to collect fines, it’s likely to go towards “lets punish VW for cheating”. And I fear they’ll go bankrupt.
Other European, Asian and perhaps even US car manufacturers (who probably have egg on their faces too because I think all manufacturers try to “game” the tests) would have a field day. Whole categories of cars suddenly available to pick up. GM with the Opel Astra, gunning for the Golf bracket, together with Toyota, Renault, Peugeot, Fiat and Ford. The Passat, the same.
However, we would lose some iconic market leaders. The Volkswagen UP, the Volkswagen Transporter. Will Porsche survive? Audi, Skoda and Seat will all suffer. And what about Bentley or Lamborghini? The landscape will change… for the worse. Over 800.000 people all around Europe directly or indirectly depend on VW group for their livelihood.
I would argue for a non-vindictive, non-punitive solution. Not only will market values of affected VW’s hold much better, and therefore damages to owners be reduced, but the cars, after reprogramming, will be just fine. And, let’s be car lovers: we don’t really want to lose these iconic brands and cars.
Peter
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This is a pretty ugly situation. A PR nightmare.
The astoundingly arrogant and as it turns out, pretty stupid VW engineers thought they were "gaming the system" and "cheating on a test". What makes them, and their management so seemingly blind is that they ignored the fact that some customers actually care about the environment; so, having a car that now pollutes 40x the limit really annoys them. It also is an eco-nightmare. What little inroads diesel has made in the USA might take years to recover.
Nearly all other manufacturers who put "clean diesels" in their cars have relied on the proven, if not invasive and costly technology of urea-injection; diesel exhaust fruit or DEF.
What surprises me is that so many of the car companies just couldn't figure out how VW did it. Nobody immediately suspected cheating, but nobody just took a car, stuck an EGA down the tailpipe and ran the darn car on the road! Had anyone done that the head-scratching engineers at the other companies would have figured this out years ago. I suspect that nobody bothered because aside from large trucks in the USA, diesels in cars are a relatively insignificant part of the passenger car market.
Any solution must make the customers whole and also fix the cars to make them meet standards. Anything less isn't acceptable. On the standard issue, they are dealing with the EPA, not NHTSA. EPA has some teeth, a bit more than the highway folks. They are less than pleased here...
On the sticker on one of our Ford Hybrids, the number was "inflated" a bit, and they sent out a check covering the cost differential of the fuel over the life of the lease, something like $200. On the other hybrid we have, they had adjusted downward the mileage ratings so the sticker was more accurate.
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mdsalemi write in part;
On the sticker on one of our Ford Hybrids, the number was "inflated" a bit, and they sent out a check covering the cost differential of the fuel over the life of the lease, something like $200. On the other hybrid we have, they had adjusted downward the mileage ratings so the sticker was more accurate.
Michael, isn`t this cheating? - or are there degrees of cheating?
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Michael, isn`t this cheating? - or are there degrees of cheating?
Well, George, yes--there are different degrees of cheating, of course! If you get $1.00 extra in change at a restaurant and don't report it, you've cheated the restaurant. If your broker is engaged in an elaborate fraud in which he takes a $1,000,000 from you or any number of people, that's more substantial so of course there are degrees...
But you are talking about Ford, and I surely don't think there was any intent to defraud the EPA (it was their mandated testing) or customers. Here's the story on that. The window sticker, or "Monroney" as it is called, must contain the EPA mileage ratings, and the usual source of these ratings is the EPA mileage test that is done under very standardized conditions, in a laboratory/dynamometer, and off the streets. On PEVs, this mileage rating can be vastly different, and with two cars, and a full year of experience with both, I can tell you that the mileage is wildly different depending on temperature, and the driver's use of climate control. Batteries must be heated in the cold weather; the use of A/C in the summer and heat in the winter affects the mileage in a measure not seen in traditional fuel vehicles. At a full charge, and 68 degrees ambient temperature, with no climate control in use, my range on the Ford Fusion Energy PEV is 18-22 miles. That will drop to as low as 10 by use of climate control, or if the temperature goes up or down. The car does not like it cold, nor hot. That's the reality of a battery--and I don't think this is peculiar to Ford. Heating and cooling take a lot of energy, and that comes from the same source as the motive power.
Now--onto the sticker. Ford's Monroney for the Fusion Energi (that's the two cars I have, others are included) reflected the EPA testing procedure. However for the reasons noted in the paragraph above, real world conditions were somewhat less. This generated complaints, which had Ford re-visiting the test procedure and process. Ford revised the sticker, and it wasn't by a whole lot: in my case, the sticker on one car went from 43mpg/100MPGe/21 mile range down to 38/88/19. Lease customers received a $525 payment; those who bought the cars received an $850 payment. Details were covered on the press release; pay particular attention to the engineering detail about TRLHP and the wind tunnel. Note also that they didn't revise conventional fueled vehicle ratings as these were unaffected by the engineering models. The PEVs and EVs require different standards to come close to reality.
https://social.ford.com/wp-content/docs/fe_press_release.pdf
Note that by the time we got our second car, the Monroney had been regenerated with the latter set of numbers--and thus no goodwill payment. We didn't complain, nor did we sign any paperwork, or fill out any forms. They sent a check to the dealer who turned around and sent the money to us. That simple. We were not complaining since there was a spectacular lease deal in the first place--about half the cost of a gas power model--and all this stuff about mileage ratings wasn't going to affect our lease. It was just too good to pass up.
By the way, for what its worth, our combined mileage ratings on these cars according to the built in computer is in the 83-85 range. When on electricity alone, it is 100MPGe+; when on gas alone as on a long trip, about 38mpg...but the boot has barely enough room for groceries let alone something as simple as a bag of golf clubs. It's all batteries!
Another interesting article: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150927/ANE/150929837/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says
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Thanks Michael - your points are well made.
Perhaps I should have added that I am a VW fan - we own a 2010 VW Passat with the in question 2.0l Diesel engine, a classic `73 VW Kombi ute and I have owned a couple of beetles over the years. My wife mainly drives our Passat and she reckons its a fantastic car - so do I for that matter - extremely well put together and that engine really sings (sadly with bad breath) We are unsure whether the computer programming is the same as the US car - although I assume it is, and I am not aware of the Australian emission standard - it may be more tolerant than in the US so it could meet it - the "faking it" issue doesn`t change though.
Like the rest of the world, we are waiting with baited breath until next week which appears to be the deadline given to VW (not sure by whom) to tell us their remedy. One thing I am confident of though - in 2 years from now, VW will still exist - too many Governments esp the Germans have an interest to let it fail and life will go on. As someone said earlier in a post -its not as if VWs action is actually killing people - wasn`t there a car - Pinto - I think where it had a badly designed fuel tank which exploded during rear impact crashes - the manufacturer knew of this but calculated the cost of redesign against the likely cost of litigation and figured lawyers were cheaper. Quite a few people died. Ford is still around.
cheers
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Well I am not about to agree with everyone driving large SUV's and pickups as daily transportation but even with the increased fuel consumption compared to a diesel VW, these large vehicles are not emitting pollutants equal to the possibly 40 times over the allowable limits that VW may be spewing. Since one large vehicle uses 4 times the fuel and one VW emits 40 times the emissions, one VW equals 10 large SUV/Truck.
Yes, but is that all cars, some of them, or one in a thousand? Somehow, comparing one small car's output ( at 2 liter and probably no visible smoke ) ) to several large trucks seems to be a bit over reaching.
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For the last four days I am zipping around southern Germany
in an Audi A3 with this engine and can really appreciate why Wallace would not want to let it go. It is a fun car to drive !
The shock here in Germany is still palpable but now the suspicions are surfacing. Is it all a revenge? Or perhAps a ploy to screw small investors and customers even more:
:http://www.marketwatch.com/story/porsche-has-lost-over-10-billion-on-volkswagens-stock-but-still-wants-more-2015-09-28
a sinister way to increase your share percentage?
Interesting times ...
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...and the bottom line can be found in that article link about Bosch in my previous post. Most engineers in most auto companies, who know a whit about diesel, and the emissions know this.
The VW engine that is at the crux of this matter needed the DEF/Urea injection like almost all other diesel engines, including those in all the big trucks use. THAT'S how it's done.
The cost was a mere 300 euro per car. They said no. Too costly. Really? Fast forward to today, and I guess it's going to cost them a whole lot more to solve this problem than 300 euro per car.
Then there's the criminal issue, conspiracy and all that..
Today's update: VW is thinking it can be done with software only in most cases, and with a changed fuel injection pump in others. If that's the case, why was the original engineering thought that the engine needed a DEF injection system?
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So has VW said that the cars won't run well if the software is set to always be in clean mode?
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So has VW said that the cars won't run well if the software is set to always be in clean mode?
That's a logical assumption, but since recall parameters have not yet been set [for the USA] we don't know this to be true. Just keep your ears to the ground, when any announcements are made they'll be big ones.
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Here we are a week or so later, and this is so "yesterday" in terms of news. You have to seek it out.
Today's story is that the AdBlue urea injection, rejected in 2007 as "too costly" will now be implemented at some time "moving forward", but not indicated as the solution to what's already out there...
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No wonder that VW dealers have started to offer $15K rebates for 2015 V6 Touaregs, they knew what was coming!
"However, the software employs a "timer" that coincides with the low NOx temperature conditioning mode. At exactly one second after the completion of the initial phases of the FTP 75 Federal emissions test procedure (1,370 seconds, which is when the vehicle would normally be tumed off), this software directs the vehicle to cease low NOx temperature conditioning mode. The "temperature conditioning" status bit switches to zero, and a second status bit indicates the activation of"transition to normal mode." In this "normal mode," the emission control system is immediately less effective. Compared to the low NOx temperature conditioning mode, the vehicle employs a different injection timing, exhaust gas recirculation rate, and common rail fuel pressure. This yields higher levels ofNOx from the engine and reduced exhaust temperatures."
1 second delay .. that's what I call German precision! ::)
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf
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That's a logical assumption, but since recall parameters have not yet been set [for the USA] we don't know this to be true. Just keep your ears to the ground, when any announcements are made they'll be big ones.
The Land Rover Discovery and full fat Range Rovers have been fitted with adblue for the past year now. I assume they do so in the US also?
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I'm not selling mine until the government prys it out my hands or as Scoot says, not worth fixing *. I like it too much. ....
Wallace,
wait until your daily driver asks you "will you still like me when I look like that?" :o ;D
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environment/epa-expands-on-road-emissions-testing-to-all-diesel-models.html
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LOL .... Alfred that takes the cake ~grin~ wherever did you find that (in the new testing directive from VW top management?)
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Dieter,
just click on the link to the NY times article, it should show up there.
The interesting aspect here is, of course, how will the other manufacturers of diesel cars fare in actual EPA driving tests.
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Cool! Where can I get one?
That is a device only a mother could love.
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If you ask perhaps VW might include it in their so called "Goodwill Package" that they offer now to owners. ;)
Although the company claims that you do not have to sign a release form to receive the package I would like to read the fine print:
To be eligible, consumers must be the registered owner or lessee of a Volkswagen diesel with the 2-liter TDI engine as of Nov. 8. Customers won’t be required to sign a release of claims in order to receive the package, said VW spokesman Darryll Harrison Jr. There are hundreds of consumer lawsuits seeking class-action status against the company.
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Hey! Thanks for the info. That is timely because I need to take the ol' polluter in for an oil change. Plus I just bought some parts from the Classic Center and that will help pay for that. Here is the link:
www.vwdieselinfo.com
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www.vwdieselinfo.com
Wow, what a lot of corporate double-speak and nonsense there. If they don't get every last one of these cars fixed or off the road, and a cadre of VW officials in jail along with a lot of fines, this is announcing to the automotive world that the rule of law is irrelevant and auto companies can darn well do what they want. This is so disturbing on so many levels. The only good news is that in the USA the number of diesels is very small.
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Such a shame too.
Our family and my wife's family have the TDI diesels.
Today my parents are taking their 2015 Jetta TDI back to the dealer for a gas Jetta car swap.
I told them, if I were in their shoes, return the faulty TDI and get a gas one for now.
Till the TDI's become legal again.
Told them if they need the car inspected, it would fail promptly.
Also the car was just bought 3 months ago and the battery died all of a sudden (not one amp or hiccup on the voltmeter).
And that the oil was mysteriously disappearing.
Walter
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It is only the 2009 and on TDI diesels that are affected.
I shared the VW promotion with a neighbor with a similar car. She is outraged with VW because she bought the car primarily for environmental reasons and she was unlawfully deceived. I think she was going to buy a Prius but chose the VW instead. My top three reasons for buying the TDI was great fuel mileage, I love diesels and it is a fun car to drive. The fact it has great gas mileage also was an environmental plus and still is to some degree. The environmental selling point was not a major factor for me.
Think about this. How did the PR department somehow convince people that a diesel powered car is on the same plane as a Prius from an environmental view point? After a 100 or so years, diesels are still noisy, have vibration, have smelly fuel that does not evaporate quickly and has horribly black oil that will stain your hands easily. They do and always have had great fuel mileage. So how did they get the "clean diesel" campaign to stick? A hybrid or electric car will probably always have better emissions.
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How did PR do the convincing? Simple, they are good at their jobs!
There is such a thing as a clean diesel, relatively speaking, and that's the DEF injection. VW didn't want to, couldn't or insert excuse here, adapt this proven technology. So they faked it.
I think Mercedes-Benz would submit any of their diesels certified for the USA to anyone for testing and pass.
I'm not a fan of diesel here, mostly because there are WILD swings in diesel fuel prices; last winter locally the fuel was often $1.15 MORE than regular at any given time. While we are used to fuel price swings (when prices are steady here in the midwest, you can be sure a refinery fire, pipeline burst, or additive shortage is around the corner which will cause prices to rise) the differential just makes it hard to justify a diesel, considering the usual premium on the car itself.
PS Wallace, if you find the VW diesel fun to drive--my guess is the petrol version is every bit as much fun to drive. ;)
I rented a Peugeot in Germany in 2011 and didn't have a clue it was diesel until I went to fill it up prior to return! They have made long strides in every way.
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I suppose I shouldn't, but I find this whole thing kind of funny. I would buy a diesel, and I have driven 300SD's before, but it would never be because I wanted a '' clean '' running engine - it would be for the mileage. If you're that green, you should be riding a mountain bike. ::)
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I got the feel good package from VW just in time for Christmas: $500 debit card and $500 dealer credit. Lots of letters from hungry lawyers also.
So far no word on what is going to happen to the ill fated TDI. Europe has a solution I believe, but not the US. We shall see.....
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Wow, what a lot of corporate double-speak and nonsense there. If they don't get every last one of these cars fixed or off the road, and a cadre of VW officials in jail along with a lot of fines, this is announcing to the automotive world that the rule of law is irrelevant and auto companies can darn well do what they want. This is so disturbing on so many levels. The only good news is that in the USA the number of diesels is very small.
Mike:
The rule of law is irrelevant. Look around you, it's happening everywhere. Force is what makes laws work and when you can't use force to promote compliance, rule of law is just a nice idea. We have rule of law ( to one degree or another ) in the western world but as for the others......... well.........
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/06/business/inside-vws-campaign-of-trickery.html
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Thanks for the link Alfred. Good article. Still would like to know Bosch's role in all of this. Im sure that will come out at some point.
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So far no word on what is going to happen to the ill fated TDI. Europe has a solution I believe, but not the US. We shall see.....
https://www.wsj.com/search/term.html?KEYWORDS=Volkswagen+TDI
Apparently the TDI is selling like hot cakes!!
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Yes, I will have to take a look. Thanks for posting! BTW, VW has my old TDI and now (January 2017) I am now getting correspondence from Bosch about a payment from them.
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I am now getting correspondence from Bosch about a payment from them.
I am not surprised. If you follow the links inside the NYT article posted By Alfred, you will find articles indicating that Bosch are up to their eyeballs in the deception.
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...and now there's a coming book on the matter: Faster, Higher, Farther: The Volkswagen Scandal
http://a.co/gDXhpRI
"#1 new release in [Amazon's] Hoaxes and Deceptions genre"
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Michael,
did you read the article in the NYT that I linked? It was written by the author of the book that you discovered on Amazon.
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did you read the article in the NYT that I linked? It was written by the author of the book that you discovered on Amazon.
Alfred, I didn't read your link, only because I've been getting the NYT for years, and thus have been reading the article(s) (there are many) not only there, but also in the WSJ and in the Detroit News and Free Press as well. Needless to say but I will say it anyway--it's pretty big news in these parts.
But I did see a blurb quite recently announcing this book and that it was written by the author and "lead investigator" as it were, of the NYT article series, and the book is "soon to be released". What it looks like is that there was so much information, so many articles, so much research, that it had to be put into concise book form. THEN I went to Amazon to get the link for our folks here... ;)
I particularly enjoyed the Amazon assignment to the "hoaxes and deceptions" genre. I'm in the process of re-reading "Taken for A Ride" about the "merger of equals". I wonder if THAT is in the same genre? :D
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The emission regulations are made so that no diesel engine less than 3 liters will pass. Or the car will be too sluggish for the consumer if used in test mode.
This is a way for USA to regulate the market to its own advantage. :-X
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And, if it hasn't been mentioned somewhere before, Netflix has an original series out now called "Dirty Money". https://youtu.be/CsplLiZHbj0
Season 1, Episode 1 is about the VW scandal...titled "Hard NOx" released on 26-January.
Made me angry again about the arrogant smugness of the VW execs. At least two are in jail, thank goodness...
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Mike, yes I saw it the other night it truly is discusting someone said "top executives did not know what a bunch of engineers were doing" really ... what BS that is. I hope more will serve jail time and heavy fines.
Must be like most large companies now with Accountaints running the companies now (no pun intended for Accountants). At least when I was in the work force (before starting my own business) it was mostly Engineers in charge of large corporations. This all changed now it's all about the dollar not the quality anymore.
Dieter
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My personal response is I won't ever buy a VW product in the future.
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For those that watch "Hard NOx" there is a subtle subtext, where they basically mention how the vast discrepancy between real-world results, and test-cycle results, and that both BMW and MB diesels also showed a similar pattern. However, the documentary was on VW so this was not explored beyond a brief mention.
I don't know much about European diesels but I know that MB's in the USA have DEF. That's a whole different animal in terms of tailpipe emissions, but too costly on a VW in that price point.
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I am hearing that real road results are usually 4-5 times higher than test. That is what was quoted in Dirty Money for MB and BMW. This is also what I read in the press. VW results were 40x higher. And all of that in view of "clean" advertising. And experiments on animals and planned (but I think never effected) experiments on people.
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Winterkorn Indicted in US Federal Court:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-ex-ceo-martin-winterkorn-indicted-in-emissions-probe-1525378593?mod=djemalertNEWS
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He won't be going to the US on vacation any time soon...
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He won't be going to the US on vacation any time soon...
In the other news that followed, the Feds are also looking for another VW-Audi former employee, one Italian national Giovanni Pamio. He, unlike Winterkorn, isn't subject to the non-extradition laws.
Funny thing...some Europeans seemingly cannot stay away from Florida or Disneyworld. [From the what the heck was he thinking department] That's how the Feds caught up with Oliver Schmidt...
I hope Germany provides a nice retirement for Winterkorn, because he probably won't be crossing many borders!
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....
I hope Germany provides a nice retirement for Winterkorn, because he probably won't be crossing many borders!
Or a new identity and passport?
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What goes around, comes around. Ever thought you would see VW dealers selling TDI again? These are low mileage "fixed" cars on the lots ready to sell. https://www.hendrickvwfrisco.com/used-Frisco-2014-Volkswagen-Jetta+SportWagen-TDI+wSunroof-3VWPL7AJ6EM610752
Despite all that has happened, I am glad they are using these vehicles instead of scrapping all of them.
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These are low mileage "fixed" cars on the lots ready to sell.
I was under the impression that they could not be easily fixed; that making this car/engine meet the emissions rules would require a DEF system or something equally large and costly.
Thus I ask--what was the fix on these cars?
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As part of VW's settlement with VW Diesel owners the owners had a choice of letting VW take the car back or keeping it. The market value is certainly less than it would have been pre-fiasco. Either way VW compensated the owners for the loss of value. If an owner elected to take some compensation, keep the car and trade it in on something else later, there is likely nothing to prevent a dealer from taking one of these VW Diesels in trade and sending it to auction or offering it for sale on their used car lot. I think the only issue with buying, selling or trading one of these used VW Diesels at this point might be that one might not be able to register it in certain jurisdictions with very strict emissions standards. I'm thinking California and the Northeast states that must also comply with California Emissions.
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Thus I ask--what was the fix on these cars?
The attached article indicates that the EPA and CARB have approved several different fixes. Cost is said to be "over" $1000 which is certainly an open ended amount but taken in the context of the article this appears to be an approximation of cost. This article doesn't provide specifics on the fix but refers to various EPA documents on the fixes approved.
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/03/29/volkswagen-fix-us-europe-effective-dieselgate/
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Having had one of these cars, I am familiar with the process. Any car sold now as a TDI especially by a dealer, has to have been "fixed". In fact one dealer here in town advertises on their website that TDIs are back. Not sure how many of you are familiar with the massive storage lots for bought-back TDIs around the US. One is in Colorado and a friend of mine drove by it last year. He said there were thousands of cars there. He drove by about a month ago and said that there were far fewer cars in the lot.
My guess is they are picking the best of the litter, fixing them and selling them. VW seems to have a target price range from 14k to 20K. I have never seen one less that 14K. Financially it seems to make sense to me in that VW could cut their losses per car by 30 to 50%. Still the future of passenger diesel cars is dead and I would assume that to be true worldwide.
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Still the future of passenger diesel cars is dead and I would assume that to be true worldwide.
Not yet dead but dying very slowly!
In Europe, market share for diesel versus gasoline models has declined this year to 46% from 50% two years ago. Much of this decline can be blamed on the VW diesel deception saga. Some of the larger cities have banned diesels in certain areas and some have plans to ban them completely. Bans on all internal combustion engines are also being discussed.
One of the surprising effects of the reduction of diesel vehicles is that it presents a problem for overall air quality in Europe.
Gasoline engines produce substantially more CO2 while the diesel produces the feared NOX but very low CO2. Without diesels in the mix environmental targets will be difficult to meet. The Association of European Auto Constructors (ACEA) has asked for a delay from 2021 to 2030 in implementing the 20% reduction in CO2 emissions presently mandated to meet climate change goals in Europe.
While the percentage of diesels sold has slipped below 50% in Europe as a whole, in Italy the anti-diesel wave has not hit. The percentage of market share here remains firm at 57%. As long as diesel fuel sells at a 10% discount to gasoline, the Italians will not give in.
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Same here in Australia Ralph, the diesel engine is still the preferred motor in the SUV’s and larger 4 wheel drives and in quite a few cars as well.
I think a lot of Australians thought the VW Dieselgate saga was a lot of beat up and VW’s still sell very well here. At the time, I wanted a new SUV and had heard that the VW dealers had sold next to no cars for several months as all the press bad mouthed what had occured. I decided it was a great time to negotiate and buy VW so went to the dealer and negotiated a further 30% discount in addition to the fire sale prices for a top of the line Toureg at that time. Best buy I have ever done and saved myself $20k.
Whilst I understand all the angxt over the fraud on the software of the polution device, I dont understand why you would give back what was a really good vehicle rather than just take the compensation. Then again I dont understand the vehicle herd mentality that some in the USA have.
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I could be wrong, but I thought I heard that Europe had a target date to get rid of all new diesels sales. I believe the big push is electric. I get the change in pollution thought and I agree.
My reasoning for selling my TDI back to VW was three fold. 1) I really didn't trust what the fix was or if it was even going to be done correctly. I didn't want continual problems. At the time I sold, the "fix" was not even published or any near approved. 2) VW gave me a very fair price. It was as if nothing had happened and I just sold a four year old car. 3) I really wanted to be done with the whole ordeal and move on with my life. VW made it relatively easy to sell back. So there you have it and I am back with VW with a 2015 Toureg as of last week. Because of the new Atlas in the US, I got a great price on the Toureg. No longer selling it in the US as of 2017.
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I could be wrong, but I thought I heard that Europe had a target date to get rid of all new diesels sales.
Wallace, The target date is 2040. This applies to all internal combustion engines not just diesels. The environmentalists are pushing to bring this back to 2030.
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Whilst I understand all the angst over the fraud on the software of the pollution device, I don't understand why you would give back what was a really good vehicle rather than just take the compensation. Then again I don't understand the vehicle herd mentality that some in the USA have.
Garry, not certain what you mean by the pejorative "herd mentality" that some have in the USA, but in reality, the situation was merely a blip, a speedbump in overall VW sales in the USA, with the bulk of that in 2016. http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/volkswagen/
Diesels in the USA have always been just a small fraction of overall motorcar sales. There are a variety of reasons for this, such as [generally significant] increase in initial cost, and wildly fluctuating disparity in fuel pricing. Anecdotally around here (Michigan), diesel has always been higher, and that high fuel price negates the other savings. Today, one local retailer is at USD $3.07 for regular (87 octane) and $3.29 for diesel. I've seen that differential as high as $0.40 per gallon, particularly during a cold or potentially cold winter when home heating oil (used extensively in the north east) prices go up. Home heating oil is basically #2 diesel. Due to fuel pricing and taxes the payback on a diesel in Europe is significantly quicker than the USA; that won't change easily, and thus the mix of diesel/gas won't either. With hybrids and electrics all the rage, I'm not sure diesel will make a comeback for passenger cars in the USA.
I cannot speak for the population that had these [deceptive] TDIs but presumably some bought them because [amongst many reasons) they thought they were being "greener" than other choices, thus when the scandal emerged the only sensible thing to do was to get rid of it. I'm sure there's a subset there that simply loved diesels (to heck with emissions) and took the money. Others didn't want to be "caught" down the road with a car that they might not be able to sell.
As an interesting analogy, in the early 1990s many new homes in the USA were sided with "LP Inner Seal" OSB siding, which was basically an inferior product that was cheap. It failed miserably, and there was a huge class action lawsuit to recover damages. There were a lot of homes in my neighborhood with that junk on it; some owners took the money and did nothing. Others took a settlement and re-sided their homes. Those that took the money and did nothing found themselves in a bit of a bind when they went to sell their homes; they basically had to give back what they thought was a windfall from years earlier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana-Pacific In the worst cases, the cost to re-side had gone up and savvy buyers required the sellers to make the change prior to closing.
So is "not wanting to own a product not living up to specifications" and one that will probably be difficult to sell down the line, a uniquely American trait? I wouldn't think so, sounds like human nature to me!
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https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44444361
.....and now Mercedes-Benz :-[
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Michael
My understanding of the Deiselgate as it is known in the USA was that when the vehicle was put on the test rig for assessing if it met the polution standards in CA it went into a secret mode that changed the settings such that it gave the appearance of being less poluting than reality.
Whilst that is a classic case of fraud and a massive deception for an large international company to do on the general public, only the USA had the big recall of the cars, compensation and the general air of “the world was about to fall in”, the rest of the world just acknowledged that there was fraud, sure lets charge the guilty players with that and now lets move on. They were great cars, in the rest of the world they are not doing a masive recall, remember it was only in the test mode that the change is made to the running system they didnt need to do what they did to gain acceptancce. The vehicle actually runs ‘better’ with more power (and with more polution) in its normal running mode.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with the vehicles and in AUstralia and I believe the rest of the world, the residual values of the vehicles is no different, they still all work just fine.
Herd mentality or maybe a nicer way to put it, a US class actions in Dieselgate killed the residual values in USA only whereas most of the world yawned and moved on.,
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There was a lot wrong with the cars, namely that they polluted way beyond the maximum acceptable norms. The rest of the world has been asleep at the wheel and apparently cares more about 'money now' and 'let's not upset the Big Car Makers and their Unions' than in the US. Had it been a US car maker with large sales in Europe, probably the tables would have been turned, anyway. I for one fault VW big time and hats off to the small-time researchers at this university that blew the lid off of this scam.
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Well, let's see. We've got at least one VW (or is it two?) execs arrested and one in jail. The CEO of Audi was arrested in Germany today (not by Americans, mind you, but by Germans)
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/18/audi-ceo-arrested-volkswagen-says.html
There are other firms, and executives who have yet to be fully explored in this. Daimler has been summoned by GERMAN authorities over this issue too: that is, defeat devices or software.
Yes we take our emissions very seriously here in the USA, perhaps being the world's leader in doing so...and the CARB is more so than anyone else. (CARB=California Air Resources Board). Like it or not, they are the primary reason why we can actually see in Los Angeles in the 21st century.
Other countries (like the EU) take other things seriously. When I travelled to Sicily last year, our tour guide told us that there are no more wood-fired commercial pizzerias in Sicily, something about EU pollution regulations (as if...). A year after all the "Pagoda Style" books were sold, the Mercedes-Benz Classic Center came back to me with a form to fill out about the WEIGHT of the POLYETHYLENE FILM on books! Yes, this shrink wrap apparently is something that Germany considers pollution, non-green, and thus a tax must be paid on it. Oh, it was like 1.5 grams of PE per book. Probably cost MB more to fill out the form than the tax they had to pay. You can pry my local coal and wood-fired pizza joints away from my cold dead hands, wrapped in PE.
Garry, the TDI cars were NOT fine. They were massive polluters. How each country deals with it, is up to them. As I pointed out despite this massive fraud, it had little impact on VW in the USA. A forgiving public. Somehow, VW (according to Wallace) has managed a viable fix; had they done this in the first place instead of cheating, they'd have saved themselves a lot of grief.
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When I travelled to Sicily last year, our tour guide told us that there are no more wood-fired commercial pizzerias in Sicily, something about EU pollution regulations (as if...).
I think the Italians are doing away with the wood fired pizzerias even less quickly than they are doing away with their diesel engine cars (57% Diesel and holding steady). I Googled, "pizzeria con forno a legna palermo," and found at least 20 in the Sicilian capital!
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A forgiving public. Somehow, VW (according to Wallace) has managed a viable fix; had they done this in the first place instead of cheating, they'd have saved themselves a lot of grief.
Not sure about forgiving, but forgetful for sure. And why merged corporations change their names slowly. “I know Nissan, but what’s a Datsun”? TDI? What’s that?
I do not know what the exact fix is, but there were several options with cost being the driver. The TDI was a marketing move to produce a cheaper diesel. Their initial plans didn’t work and it should have stopped there. Cut the investment losses and move on knowing that a cheap diesel would not pass modern emissions. It was a gamble that cost them dearly.
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I think the Italians are doing away with the wood fired pizzerias even less quickly than they are doing away with their diesel engine cars (57% Diesel and holding steady). I Googled, "pizzeria con forno a legna palermo," and found at least 20 in the Sicilian capital!
Laughing now Ralph...just because they say "pizzeria con forno a legna palermo" doesn't mean they actually are. It's Sicily you know. I was caught unaware, for example, that the "VISA Mastercard" signs in the windows of restaurants and shops actually meant something. Was only able to use credit cards at high-end hotel, etc. For some reason at the little shops and restaurants, the machines was always down, the internet not working, or [fill in the blank] on excuse. This wouldn't have been so bad but there are no exchanges left on the island save for the airports and one in Taormina. The diesel acceptance is all about taxes and government involvement and thus will probably stay that way for a while.
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TDI? What’s that?
TDI = Turbo Direct Injection. These days this acronym can be applied to either a Gasoline or Diesel fueled engine. Such acronyms are rife in the auto industry. My favorite one was CVCC, which was the acronym applied to the three valve (two intake, one exhaust) engine that was introduced in the first Honda Civic back in 1975. Everybody thought it was just a fancy way of saying it was the engine that came in a Civic. CVCC actually stood for Compound Vortex Combustion Chamber. These engines burned cleanly enough that they didn't need catalytic converters to pass even the California emissions standards in effect at the time.
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Was only able to use credit cards at high-end hotel, etc. For some reason at the little shops and restaurants, the machines was always down, the internet not working, or [fill in the blank] on excuse.
Off the tourist track credit card use is very low. A couple of the main reasons for this: The merchant doesn’t want to pay the card company fee especially for small transactions. Also, when a card is used, there is an electronic record created so the merchant must also give you a matching official receipt from his cash register. This reduces to zero the opportunity for negotiated cash transactions where IVA (value added tax) is not paid. As the IVA rate is 22%, the merchant and the customer make out. The government is the big loser (and obviously the country as a whole).
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Even though I owned one, I didn't actually even know what TDI stood for. I figured the D was for diesel and then whatever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharged_direct_injection And yes, I had no idea about the CVCC and thought it was Civic. How about the W123 diesel wagon "300 TD"? Turbo diesel? Nope. Yes it was a turbo diesel but the "T" was the configuration for a wagon.
BTW, https://www.cars.com/articles/we-test-whether-you-should-buy-a-post-scandal-volkswagen-tdi-diesel-1420699480602/ In regards to whether you should buy a "fixed" TDI. Good article and explains the fix which by the way did not involve using exhaust fluid. As I said earlier, these are inexpensive to buy. So you had better get them while they are hot.
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https://www.cars.com/articles/we-test-whether-you-should-buy-a-post-scandal-volkswagen-tdi-diesel-1420699480602/ So you had better get them while they are hot.
Thanks so much Wallace, for posting this. So, unless the Feds approved a fix that was somewhat more lenient than would have been approved during initial testing, the fix seemed relatively easy, and the reduction in performance and mileage was for intents, insignificant. Which really begs the question, "What the *&^% were they thinking?" Couldn't or shouldn't they have done this up front?
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So, unless the Feds approved a fix that was somewhat more lenient than would have been approved during initial testing, the fix seemed relatively easy, and the reduction in performance and mileage was for intents, insignificant. Which really begs the question, "What the *&^% were they thinking?" Couldn't or shouldn't they have done this up front?
Maybe we should check the Fed's bank accounts for a large, unexpected deposit? I am a little surprised myself by the relative ease of repair and the very little effect on performance. Knowing this, I probably would have kept mine. They did mention a "new" Nitrogen Oxide Catalyst and not sure if this is the Gold Standard that wasn't available before?
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Off the tourist track credit card use is very low. A couple of the main reasons for this: The merchant doesn’t want to pay the card company fee especially for small transactions. Also, when a card is used, there is an electronic record created so the merchant must also give you a matching official receipt from his cash register. This reduces to zero the opportunity for negotiated cash transactions where IVA (value added tax) is not paid. As the IVA rate is 22%, the merchant and the customer make out. The government is the big loser (and obviously the country as a whole).
My sister went to Greece a few years ago and everything was cash, and by that I mean everything. Little wonder the country was nearly bankrupt.
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They did mention a "new" Nitrogen Oxide Catalyst and not sure if this is the Gold Standard that wasn't available before?
https://phys.org/news/2016-07-dealers-volkswagen-emissions-cheating-ready.html
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Here is a summary of the currant status:
https://www.epa.gov/vw/learn-about-volkswagen-violations#California
Most models up to 2015 appear to have approved fixes now.
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The VW dieselgate scandal will not soon be forgotten. Here is Volkswagen's latest attempt to move forward with more positive publicity and an eye to the future.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagens-all-electric-effort-to-climb-out-of-its-p-r-hole-1530715188?emailToken=6d05496323befe4ddcb4aecd9ba4e461Y7U9OMDsWhX0vHbXA8ZtxZFFIvvv1vH/izLkqRxrW1UgcdbjMgpISxUk8yLodRF7yjZTsDhqnI+5Efjmjze4wUal+KzS96CpbmZVgUs8dG6+24MEfkVSbon5igZ/q9u+&reflink=article_email_share
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OK gotta love this.
Spotted yesterday while out and about: a BMW 330d wagon (estate for you Eurotypes). Probably very rare around here.
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Garry, not certain what you mean by the pejorative "herd mentality" that some have in the USA, but in reality, the situation was merely a blip, a speedbump in overall VW sales in the USA, with the bulk of that in 2016. http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/volkswagen/
Diesels in the USA have always been just a small fraction of overall motorcar sales. There are a variety of reasons for this, such as [generally significant] increase in initial cost, and wildly fluctuating disparity in fuel pricing. Anecdotally around here (Michigan), diesel has always been higher, and that high fuel price negates the other savings. Today, one local retailer is at USD $3.07 for regular (87 octane) and $3.29 for diesel. I've seen that differential as high as $0.40 per gallon, particularly during a cold or potentially cold winter when home heating oil (used extensively in the north east) prices go up. Home heating oil is basically #2 diesel. Due to fuel pricing and taxes the payback on a diesel in Europe is significantly quicker than the USA; that won't change easily, and thus the mix of diesel/gas won't either. With hybrids and electrics all the rage, I'm not sure diesel will make a comeback for passenger cars in the USA.
I cannot speak for the population that had these [deceptive] TDIs but presumably some bought them because [amongst many reasons) they thought they were being "greener" than other choices, thus when the scandal emerged the only sensible thing to do was to get rid of it. I'm sure there's a subset there that simply loved diesels (to heck with emissions) and took the money. Others didn't want to be "caught" down the road with a car that they might not be able to sell.
As an interesting analogy, in the early 1990s many new homes in the USA were sided with "LP Inner Seal" OSB siding, which was basically an inferior product that was cheap. It failed miserably, and there was a huge class action lawsuit to recover damages. There were a lot of homes in my neighborhood with that junk on it; some owners took the money and did nothing. Others took a settlement and re-sided their homes. Those that took the money and did nothing found themselves in a bit of a bind when they went to sell their homes; they basically had to give back what they thought was a windfall from years earlier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana-Pacific In the worst cases, the cost to re-side had gone up and savvy buyers required the sellers to make the change prior to closing.
So is "not wanting to own a product not living up to specifications" and one that will probably be difficult to sell down the line, a uniquely American trait? I wouldn't think so, sounds like human nature to me!
Houses aren't like cars. You are stuck with your location and if you happen to build on top of the Love Canal you might be out on the street. Can't be compared and shouldn't be.
Which is why cars can be a good investment if you buy the right one. You can always take your car to the right market - not so much with a house.
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Responding to a post made on June 11? You been on vacation or something?
My post TODAY was a tongue in cheek about someone who took the money from VW, and bought a BMW to replace it...and decided to tell the world.