Author Topic: VW Diesel Deception  (Read 33024 times)

wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2015, 06:06:57 »
Lets just say the software can solve the problem. Why didn't they just use that to begin with and avoid this disaster? Or is that the engine cannot run on test (clean mode) for very long without becoming unreliable. In that case, a simple software change won't help. I am afraid they discovered that this diesel system (non blue-def) can never get to the numbers that the EPA demands long term. Maybe they just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2015, 06:16:56 »
Lets just say the software can solve the problem. Why didn't they just use that to begin with and avoid this disaster? Or is that the engine cannot run on test (clean mode) for very long without becoming unreliable. In that case, a simple software change won't help. I am afraid they discovered that this diesel system (non blue-def) can never get to the numbers that the EPA demands long term. Maybe they just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.
They didn't do the blue-def system to begin with because it costs interior space for the tank and (I've heard) about 10 hp and a lot more money.  It's all about money.  If they can get away with something that out performs everyone else for less money, it puts them in the position they were 2 weeks ago.  Great product, well-proven, great reputation.  So much for that.

If (and it's a big if) they can modify it with a software change it's pretty much guaranteed to make a dent in performance and economy.

Any way you slice it, they cheated, they knew they were cheating, and they got caught after 6 or 7 years.  It's both civil and criminal violations that we are talking about, and at a minimum heads will roll and a lot of money will roll with it.  Losers are the shareholders and the owners.  There is no winner, except perhaps BMW and Mercedes (unless they are cheating too).  And if they haven't been, it's pay-back time.

There is a lot of on-line discussion about this possibly being the end of diesel.  France is talking of phasing it out because of environmental impact.  But who gives a damn about what France does really.  Lots of the world will be just fine with higher pollution.  I mean does anyone really think that this is going to change things in China?  No probably not.  But it will in the US and in the EU.
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2015, 07:15:25 »
.....There is no winner, except perhaps BMW and Mercedes (unless they are cheating too).  And if they haven't been, it's pay-back time......
It appears that BMW did NOT cheat:
"In the tests, conducted over five pre-defined routes categorized based on their predominant driving conditions (highway, urban/suburban, and rural-up/downhill driving), real-world nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions from the Jetta exceeded the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 (at full useful life) standard by 15 to 35 times. For the Passat, real-world NOx emissions were 5 to 20 times the standard. The BMW vehicle was generally at or below the standard, and only exceeded it during rural uphill operating conditions. (See the detailed fact sheet below for more on this study.)"

Perhaps VW may not be the only one:
"Drew Kodjak emphasized that excessive pollutant emissions during real-world driving is not something confined to the United States. ICCT research studies in Europe have repeatedly found large and growing gaps between real world emissions and the regulatory certification levels. “This is a global problem that will require a coordinated global solution,” said Kodjak."

http://www.theicct.org/news/epas-notice-violation-clean-air-act-volkswagen-press-statement
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 07:21:56 by 66andBlue »
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2015, 16:39:01 »
I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg. It will be interesting if any others get caught, gas or diesel.

I bet this is the end of diesels in cars in the US. Barely had a foothold to begin. The diesel packages cost way more, prices per gallon are higher especially in Winter, and now the environmental thing is gone. With electrics and hybrids, diesels don't stand a chance.

GM killed it in the 80's. VW killed it in 2015.
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2015, 16:52:37 »
Well VW _may_ have killed it for the United States.  Diesel prices are all over the map.  Right now in CA and AZ they are lower than gas.  If BMW were to take a change in attitude and actually import an entry level diesel they might be well-positioned to absorb some of the disgruntled VW owners and prospective buyers.   Instead BMW focuses on 6 cylinder gas cars (even for their smallest cars) which seems kind of crazy to me given this opportunity.
Scott Allen
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2015, 19:46:51 »
The US marketeers (not to be confused mouseketeers) dictate that the diesel option is a premium model. Shouldn't be, but it is. In Europe they have the entry level diesel. Even to this day, Mercedes has it as a higher level trim. Frustrating because I would have bought an entry level diesel from Mercedes had they offered it. That is why I went with VW because it was a more reasonable cost.

I agree that the entry level diesel with a basic option list is untapped market. Even in trucks until very recently, you had to get the 250 version to get a diesel. I believe Dodge now offers a diesel in the 150 trim. Were they trying to get you up to a 250 ($$$$) and justifying it because of reliabity with the increase torque of a diesel?

I have discovered in my three years of ownership, that ULSD diesel prices rise this time a year because supply is split with home heating oil. They are building stocks for the winter. Hard winter? Higher diesel prices. In the late winter, prices always start coming down. So far, every year has held true. In Dallas, diesel is about .35 higher. At one point two months ago, about the same.
Wallace Wheeler
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2015, 19:56:15 »
The US marketeers (not to be confused mouseketeers) dictate that the diesel option is a premium model. Shouldn't be, but it is. In Europe they have the entry level diesel. Even to this day, Mercedes has it as a higher level trim. Frustrating because I would have bought an entry level diesel from Mercedes had they offered it. That is why I went with VW because it was a more reasonable cost.
Yes, VW is the only one in the US that didn't limit the diesel engine to more expensive cars.  But having said that, it IS significantly more expensive than a gas car and I think that is because of high demand and it being a more expensive engine to produce.
Scott Allen
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2015, 02:22:05 »
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-343387

COMPETITIVE markets by their very nature spawn deception and trickery.”
Robert Shiller
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 02:27:55 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2015, 02:59:16 »
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 03:27:48 by scoot »
Scott Allen
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2015, 03:12:26 »
Can you google the title and fix the link please?
"Car emissions tests: Not fit for purpose?"
Sitting on an airplane with marginal wifi, at the moment.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 03:16:51 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2015, 03:28:08 »
link fixed in my post.
Scott Allen
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2015, 14:08:00 »
Pity the poor VW owner in the United States as the individual states try to outdo each other by rushing specific legislation or DMV regulations designed to remove these polluting monsters from the road.  Soon it will become impossible for one of these cars, recall modified or not, to pass specially modified emission tests in any state and the owners will be left with valueless vehicles.

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2015, 14:48:32 »
This morning's admission that VW also gamed the tests in Europe makes this pretty bad news.

I have a BMW 640d and the combination of acceleration, refinement and economy is stunning. By comparison our 3 litre 125i seems a bit puny and very, very thirsty. I will be sorry if the performance diesel engine is on the way out.

I also worry about a general backlash against older cars with the insulation which our Pagodas enjoy from pollution testing gradually being withdrawn beginning with a ban from city centres

What now of Herr Winterkorn's plans to buy the Red Bull Formula 1 team?

Regards
Andrew
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wwheeler

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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2015, 16:26:48 »
Pity the poor VW owner in the United States as the individual states try to outdo each other by rushing specific legislation or DMV regulations designed to remove these polluting monsters from the road.  Soon it will become impossible for one of these cars, recall modified or not, to pass specially modified emission tests in any state and the owners will be left with valueless vehicles.
WTF?  CA and NY enacted stricter emissions standards and it was a good thing.   Smog in Los Angeles is basically a thing of the past.  The standards have been difficult for gasoline cars as well as diesel cars.   As for the owners being left with valueless vehicles, I'm pretty confident that the owners are going to be well-compensated for VW's offense.  As for the vehicles becoming worthless, I highly doubt that.  They will become worthless when they are 10 to 15 years old, like all new cars.   And when I'm at the junkyard looking for old parts I'll start seeing more 2009-2015 VWs (I already see the new beetle at the junkyard), but it isn't because of EPA, it's because new cars are not financially designed to last that long.   We will have our trusty W123 300Ds out there long after the TDI cars are dead, polluting and putting along happily.
Scott Allen
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2015, 20:32:29 »
I'm not selling mine until the government prys it out my hands or as Scoot says, not worth fixing *. I like it too much. It is still a newish car and my daily driver which is why I have my old coupes that I REALLY love. Those VW diesels in the US are a tiny drop in the bucket as far as emissions. It is the crime that is worth pursuing.   

* Or if VW pays market value which is not going to happen.
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2015, 20:59:17 »
* Or if VW pays market value which is not going to happen.
Like I said, I returned a car to a dealership after driving it for 3 years and got all of my money refunded except sales tax.  The $38,000 fine per vehicle (or whatever it is) is far less than buying back all of the cars or giving the owners a huge chunk of cash.  VW dug themselves a money pit.
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Re:VW
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2015, 11:55:45 »
 Just had my VW serviced_ All good  ;D ;D
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2015, 15:37:09 »
By law in the US the car manufacturer must warranty everything related to the emissions for I think it's 7 years.  And CA extends that to 10 years if I remember correctly.  So one way or another VW is on the hook to remedy the problem, either by bringing the cars into compliance or buying them back.  And that's before any EPA fines which I read can be as much as $37k per vehicle.

If VW were a US company, they would likely declare bankruptcy as a way to start shedding their liability over this.  I don't know how the laws work in Germany, and I don't know whether is a separate VW North America corp that might be left holding the bag.  I'm sure there are armies of lawyers looking at how to best quarantine the damage.  This is clearly company-destroying magnitude stuff, but I honestly don't think it's in anyone's interest for VW to get destroyed.  All benefit the most by figuring out how to solve the problem.

Speaking of the problem, I owned one of these cars a few years ago.  Loved it, but that's neither here nor there regarding the problem.  It was mentioned that unlike pretty much everyone else who uses the urea fluid (is that what it's called, or is that piss?), VW used some proprietary incineration method to get ride of the NOx, but only on the 2L engines.  I think the $64,000 question here is whether this device simply needs to be turned back on under normal driving conditions and the problem is solved, though with reduced performance?  Or if their proprietary device is actually not capable of meeting the full spectrum emissions requirements, in which case this is a much harder problem to solve.  Since everyone else, including VW in their 3L engines, is using DEF to meet emissions requirements, I suspect the VW proprietary approach actually doesn't work under all conditions and that's what lead them into cheating in the first place.
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twistedtree

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2015, 15:42:53 »
I'm not selling mine until the government prys it out my hands or as Scoot says, not worth fixing *. I like it too much. It is still a newish car and my daily driver which is why I have my old coupes that I REALLY love. Those VW diesels in the US are a tiny drop in the bucket as far as emissions. It is the crime that is worth pursuing.   

* Or if VW pays market value which is not going to happen.

I think the problem here is that unless "fixed", your car is illegal to operate on the roads.  In the near future nobody will do anything about it, but this is big enough that I expect the EPA and individual states will eventually require that cars be demonstrably brought into compliance.
Peter Hayden
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2015, 15:45:49 »
Smog in Los Angeles is basically a thing of the past. 

Wow, have you flow in to LA recently?  It's a descent into an orange cloud.
Peter Hayden
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2015, 16:23:26 »
  I think the $64,000 question here is whether this device simply needs to be turned back on under normal driving conditions and the problem is solved, though with reduced performance?  Or if their proprietary device is actually not capable of meeting the full spectrum emissions requirements, in which case this is a much harder problem to solve.  Since everyone else, including VW in their 3L engines, is using DEF to meet emissions requirements, I suspect the VW proprietary approach actually doesn't work under all conditions and that's what lead them into cheating in the first place.

I agree and I don't think it can which as you say is why they cheated and risked getting caught. Probably spent millions developing the cheaper system only to find out it can't work LONG term reliably. Then they gambled. Seems like they would have worked hard since the 2009 introduction to change the issue. Who knows.
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2015, 16:26:46 »
I wonder whether any company is allowed to declare bankruptcy as long as they are very able to pay. Probably would be deemed misuse of bankruptcy laws that should be there to protect companies that are about to fall over under debt, not companies that don't like to pay their debts. Probably VW is a lot of payments to duped customers away from that status.
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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2015, 16:30:32 »
It seems also possible that they installed this cheat code not because the car would not be able to run long-distance without it, but to provide better performance at lower consumption, at least that is what a lot of people in this thread seem to be saying. So it could be an easy technical fix, albeit with still a lot of fall-out for Volkswagen.
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2015, 17:07:04 »
It seems also possible that they installed this cheat code not because the car would not be able to run long-distance without it, but to provide better performance at lower consumption, at least that is what a lot of people in this thread seem to be saying. So it could be an easy technical fix, albeit with still a lot of fall-out for Volkswagen.
I find it interesting that VW hasn't commented on what the fix will be.   I'm guessing it is going to involve a lot of haggling and bargaining with the EPA (for the US cars) and the fix will be based on what is least expensive to VW.  I would think they are looking to cut a deal.
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