Author Topic: VW Diesel Deception  (Read 33680 times)

zak

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VW Diesel Deception
« on: September 22, 2015, 02:09:27 »
Wow. I was shocked to read what VW tried to pull off with their 4 cyl diesels.
Very serious stuff with major consequences for them.
It's criminal.

jz

Jack Jones

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 03:29:45 »
Oh Lucy, you got some splainin to do! :o
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Shvegel

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 04:22:17 »
This is going to be bad for VW.  If there was an easy fix they would have done it already.  oxides of Nitrogen are reduced by reducing the temperature of combustion by reducing boost, compression or cooling the air going into the engine.  The fix is going to be bigger engines or reduced performance and nobody is going to like it.

66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2015, 05:06:28 »
As long as the time for 0-60mph matters companies will try their best - legal or not - to satisfy the US customer.
Even here, on a different board, the 0-60 number was used to pooh pooh the 3.27 axle conversion choice.
Alfred
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 05:37:55 »
Yea great and I have the diesel engine. Had it since 2012. Too bad because it is really quick and smooth. Usually get 35 MPG in mixed city driving.

I sure won't like it! Really makes you wonder who else is doing it.
Wallace Wheeler
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 08:07:28 »
Hi Wallace,
it is a bummer for sure and I hope some higher-up lands in jail.
When you write 35 mpg, is this based on what the on-board computer tells you or your own accumulated data?
It is widely rumored/known? that the automakers tweak these computer data to look better, for example, by adjusting speedometer and odometer to read higher (~8%) than actual, not measuring consumption when stopping, etc.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015, 14:25:27 »
Interesting datapoints:

1.  My VW Jetta speedometer (not diesel) reads what GPS says the car is doing.  Odd.

2.  VW stock price - It's been at about $170 for the last month, except since last Friday, September 18.   
Friday Sept 18 $164. 
Tuesday Sept 22 $106.

I don't think the recall is going to involve replacing engines.  I think it's going to be modifying the firmware such that the car has less power, lower mileage, cleaner emissions.   It also might be optional for customers to do the recall.

The real cost of this is that VW lied for years and got caught.

Scott

Scott Allen
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ejboyd5

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015, 14:30:35 »
I was curious as to what parameters were programmed into the software to signal the fact that an emissions test was being performed as opposed to normal driving. A little internet exploration revealed this as one possible method:  http://jalopnik.com/understanding-the-test-mode-that-let-vw-trick-the-emiss-1732175835  

« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 15:33:38 by ejboyd5 »

wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 16:16:36 »
No, that is real world mileage. I check the fuel receipts every time I fill up. I mostly drive on inner city "highways". Even though there are stop lights, they are spread out and the speed limit is around 40-45. So just about the perfect speed for the overdrive to kick in with really low RPMs. Yes, the mileage indicator is off for sure. It once said I got 52MPG going down a two lane country road @ 60MPH. Yea right!

I don't think they will remove the engine, just software change. I have the sports wagon which is an incredible car to drive for what it is. The handling, braking and acceleration are fantastic. Oh well 2 out of 3 ain't bad. I still really love the car overall and VW really screwed up by doing this. I hope they don't require the owners to do the recall.

Somebody will hang for this I am sure.
Wallace Wheeler
Texas
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Jordan

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 17:33:51 »
This couldn't have happened at a worse time for VW.  Over the last year their sales in the US were finally starting to move up.  I guess Porche is going to have to carry VW now.
Marcus
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66andBlue

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 18:03:29 »
Wallace,
do you have the Type EA 189 engine in your car?
"The E.P.A. has ordered Volkswagen to recall almost a half-million vehicles sold in the United States from 2009 to 2015. The affected Golf, Passat, Jetta and Beetle cars were equipped with 2-liter diesel engines. Some Audi models also use the same diesel engine."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html

How VW got caught:
"Even with the looming punishment, the company almost got away with it. In fact, it most likely would have if not for a strange twist of fate and the curiosity of several auto researchers."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-vw-to-admit-fault.html
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 18:11:21 by 66andBlue »
Alfred
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1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mdsalemi

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2015, 18:55:29 »
Two things.

1. "They are in a heap of trouble". I have no idea of what the fix with the cars will be, what the extent of the recall will be, whether or not they'll be any jail time, but this is certain--there will be boatloads of money required to be sent from VW to the US Treasury. This might rank up there with GM's problems.

2. Talk around here amongst the FCA people is that there will be a merger between VW and FCA. Oh yeah, we call that a "merger of equals".
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2015, 19:36:28 »
500,000 cars or 11 million cars?  
http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/

"Volkswagen stunned investors Tuesday by admitting that the problem was much bigger than that: internal investigations had found significant discrepancies in 11 million vehicles worldwide."

I purchased a CPO BMW maybe 10 years ago.  After owning and driving 3 years I discovered that the car had been falsely represented by the dealer at time of purchase (which effected the warranty coverage).   The resolution of the breach was for the offending dealership to purchase back the car from me for the original price.   And I got a check from them when I dropped off the car.

Imagine if it were to be ruled that owners had the option of returning the car for purchase price.  It seems like a reasonable resolution to me.   And I don't see another way where the owner isn't getting screwed.  

Bad job VW.

I believe that sales were stopped on Sunday on 2015 VW diesel cars. 

Scott
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 19:42:49 by scoot »
Scott Allen
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Benz Dr.

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2015, 20:06:13 »
I think it's a toss up between owning one of thse cars or owning stock in the company. If all your looking at is slightly less mileage than stated - big deal. If you own stock that is a bigger deal.
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2015, 20:14:26 »
I think it's a toss up between owning one of thse cars or owning stock in the company. If all your looking at is slightly less mileage than stated - big deal. If you own stock that is a bigger deal.
Shareholders are and should be outraged.  For the most part VW diesel owners love their cars, but part of it is because of the wonderful engine that it turns out isn't as wonderful as they were told.  So some of them will have some issues with that, others won't.  Either way, consumers didn't get what they thought they were getting, EPA got screwed and will get even with VW, and VW share holders will be furious at what may well drive VW into the ground for years to come.
Scott Allen
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2015, 20:48:43 »
Yes, the 2.0 engine is it. Being an owner of this car, I still love it like crazy. Even if the performce drops some with the mileage, I will keep it. I am I pissed? Sure, but I am not going to be dumb at sell it at a drastically reduced price. The torque is actually almost too much because the front tires spin quite easily. So I could actually do without a bit of that. Mileage will hurt and because diesel is typically higher than gasoline.

The sports wagon tdi is so beatifully balanced, it just stinks they screwed it up with this. The people who will be most angry are the ones that bought it for environmental reasons over say a Prius. That is who you will hear from the most. Hopefully the recall won't be mandatory, although I am sure that is dreaming.
Wallace Wheeler
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enochbell

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2015, 21:05:19 »
Wallace,

Hard to imagine how you could be forced to comply with a recall, but who knows.  In the meantime, I am sure you will have an opportunity to participate in a class action lawsuit, watch your mail for the offer!

Best,
g
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2015, 22:40:30 »
For those who don't know, the 2.0L four cylinder VW diesel uses the "carbon burner" similar to the old W123 diesels. The larger 3.0L uses the blue stuff instead. That is why the 3.0L are not included in the recall. Cost would be my reasoning why the difference as the 2.0L are in the cheaper cars. Audi uses the 3.0L for most except for the cheap cars. I don't think Porsche even uses the 2.0L. I think Mercedes diesels all use the blue stuff. The carbon burner has to be serviced/replaced at 120,000 miles. I have 40K on mine now and it runs like a champ.

To me, one of the stupidest things is that all the while this deception was taking place, VW touted their "clean diesel". So lets not draw any attention to this..... I can easily lose some HP and torque and still be happy. Crazy, but at least no lives were at risk.
Wallace Wheeler
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zak

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2015, 23:24:48 »
Yes I agree with Wallace. VW 4 banger diesels used the older, cheaper technology by somehow being able to pass the EPA testing.
Mercedes went to the Bluetec urea system on both their 4 and 6 cyl diesels. My DD is an ML CDI and it flies with 240 HP, but the newer version ML diesel uses the Blustec urea "spray mist" system that doesn't choke the engine with filters but just treats the exhaust has 10 more HP .
VW is in a big heap of trouble.

jz


 

scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2015, 00:32:03 »
Canada has also halted the sales of new TDI cars.  US has halted dealer sales of new TDI and used TDI cars from VW dealers.
Scott Allen
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VW says 11 million cars world-wide
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2015, 00:43:01 »
Scott Allen
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wwheeler

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2015, 04:12:19 »
Being ignorant of how Europe compares to the US in emissions testing, how will this effect the TDI cars on that side of the pond? That is a more significant question because of the popularity of diesels in Europe when compared to the US. Was this device solely for the US/Canada?

Stepping back and looking at history, I suppose you could have predicated something like this because of VW's huge climb to success recently. People are so predictable and history repeats itself again and again and.........
Wallace Wheeler
Texas
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2015, 04:24:43 »
Being ignorant of how Europe compares to the US in emissions testing, how will this effect the TDI cars on that side of the pond? That is a more significant question because of the popularity of diesels in Europe when compared to the US. Was this device solely for the US/Canada?
Emissions standards are highest in California, then Federal US, then EU.  There are about 500,000 cars with this "feature" in the United States, but 11 million world-wide.  So yes, this is on non-US cars, but it is unclear how much various parts of the world will care about it.  I would doubt that less "green" countries will care at all.  But I would think that the EU would care.

Stepping back and looking at history, I suppose you could have predicated something like this because of VW's huge climb to success recently. People are so predictable and history repeats itself again and again and.........
No one can imagine this happening.  It tarnishes VW and Germany and shames both.  I've half a mind to remove the VW branding from my (non-diesel) 2010 Jetta and replace it with something else that fits but wouldn't be recognized here, such as Skoda badging...
Scott Allen
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Jack Jones

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2015, 04:59:57 »
The big issue here is not the potential decrease in fuel economy or engine power. The issue is that these engines have NOT met the emission standards other than when in test mode. I heard numbers like 40 times the exhaust emissions than what is demanded by the EPA and CARB. VW may never recover from this.
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scoot

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Re: VW Diesel Deception
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2015, 05:54:34 »
The big issue here is not the potential decrease in fuel economy or engine power. The issue is that these engines have NOT met the emission standards other than when in test mode. I heard numbers like 40 times the exhaust emissions than what is demanded by the EPA and CARB. VW may never recover from this.
Well YEAH,
That leaves them with the options of:

1.  software so it's always in test mode and might run clean
2.  adding the blue-def system to the car - a very costly recall
3.  buying back all their cars - even more costly

AND paying what I hope to be huge fines.
I honestly would like to see VW end up refunding the purchase price for every single car.  And I can imagine it happening, and imagine it destroying them for the next 10 years.
Scott Allen
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