Author Topic: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project  (Read 240796 times)

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2012, 17:28:39 »
So, not knowing what model of clutch hose would fit my application I went junkyarding and found one which is a perfect fit. I also got a windshield fluid washer bottle out of Jaguar XJS V12. First issue is that it is square when I want a round one to fit in lieu and place of the former air filter housing. Second issue is that there is "LUCAS'' written on it and I'm not sure I want that into a Mercedes engine bay. So I may use it for time being until I find a better one.

I also shortened the front springs by one coil and a half. It's just a bit too much, so next time I'm in there I may fit some thicker rubber spacers. The one I have now are the thinnest ones. I also took one coil out of the rear center spring so that the car sits flat. The effect on handling is amazing. It tracks much better and the car stays nearly flat in bends. I really like it. It must be the combination of a lower gravity center and a bit stiffer springs due to shortening.

The car is now a real pleasure to drive, and is a real autobahn queen in fifth. I can't wait to take it for a long trip.

The car is also very fast. The 5.6 torque curve is amazing. The engine pushes everywhere. It's a bit less revvy that the 5.0 I have in the Coupe due to a longer stroque, and more civilized camshafts. The chassis is also taking it very well, thanks to the various upgrades, and the car is also very well balabced in the curves. better than what is was before thanks to a better weight distribution. I'm very happy with the result.

Still quite a few things to sort out as always with such kind of project, but nothing crazy. this project came out very well, "une voiture tres bien nee" as we would say in my home country.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 14:52:09 by GGR »

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2012, 18:09:53 »
Pictures please!

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2012, 23:43:29 »
Below are two links to onboard videos that Dimitri shot with his cell phone. On the first one it just started raining and the road was all greasy/slippery, so I got a bit of problems to get the tires sticking.  The second one is on dry road but there is quite some traffic. I don't know if the speed is well rendered in the videos, but the car is very well mannered and really fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD8ulV5ohKc&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN5MZ99hsOU&feature=plcp

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2012, 07:54:52 »
Looks and sounds great! I want one! ;D ;D

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2012, 15:23:08 »
Looks and sounds great! I want one! ;D ;D

It's a blast! I still can't believe how well it came out after only two test drives! It feels like the car was designed like that from the beginning, especially if I compare it with my Coupe experience where it took me much longer to have it drive like a "normal" car. It feels safe and reliable, and I'm tempted to take it for our planned trip to Ohio visiting my wife's family later this month. I would need to replace the heater levers first though, as now I don't have a heater in the car and we may be freezing going through the Appalachians Mountains!

You have all it takes to make one, I will be happy to share my experience so that you avoid unecessary try and error.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 15:31:30 by GGR »

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2012, 18:12:09 »
Quote
You have all it takes to make one,
Except time.....

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2012, 13:06:32 »
Update: the car is driving very well. I've now put 500 miles or so on it since conversion and it drives just fine. So it is now officially declared good for service.

The throttle actuating system on that engine is designed in a way that the first 75% of Pedal travel opens only 25% (or so) of the intake butterfly while the last 25% of pedal travel opens the butterfly in full. At the beginning I was finding this irritating as I had to really step on the pedal to get all the power. But after driving in the rain I finally think it's quite a good (and safe) system as otherwise the car would have quite some difficulties to drive straight. It also gives the car a bit of a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde personality: very behaved and very smooth in town and "normal" driving, as one would expect from a Mercedes. And then hell breaks loose on the last 25% of gas pedal travel. Quite a nice feature in the end, as I have two cars in one. A nice Mercedes, and a fast Mercedes.

I ran a 4% mixture of ATF in a full tank of gas to clean the injection system as it hadn't ran for a couple of years before I install it on the 560 motor and the engine is now very smooth. This method is not recommended on newer cars as it can mess up the O2 sensor. I've also put 1 quart of ATF in the engine oil to free up the sticking lifter which also improved things. I had never heard of ATF in engine oil and I discovered it on the net as a trick used in the old days to clean sludge. It also thins the oil so obviously one is not to hammer the engine while it is undergoing that treatment. I am now to replace engine oil and filter.

I have spent some time last week end fitting a windshield washing fluid container in lieu and place of the former air filter housing. The system now works as it should.

I have also sorted out a short I had in the dash board lights which was also taking out the right rear light out. As the rev counter is now out, I got a pair of electronic rev counters out of later V8 Mercedes and I will try to transfer the internals so that I can hook it up to the ignition.

I have replaced the lower radiator hose that had a pin hole in it, so no more cooling fluid leak now.

I also have installed the ipod cable so as to get some good music on our way to Ohio but weather forecast is showing some snow on the way, so we finally won't be using the Pagoda for that trip as I don't want it to drive on salty roads.

Finally, I have used ATF in the Getrag 265 transmission as this is what BMW is now recommending even in older transmissions. The trans is a bit noisy at low speeds and after a bit of search the BMW and the Volvo crowds seem to agree that a 75w90 or 80w90 gear oil (latter being what was originally recommended by BMW) is what keeps these trans most happy. It is much thicker than ATF so gear changes can be a bit notchy for a few miles on cold temp days. One has to use SAE GL 4 spec oil in those trans as the GL 5 spec is damaging the synchros. Redline MT 90 seems to be a good product for my application but I couldn't find any in stores around where I leave (All the gear oil I found were GL 5 specs). So I guess I will have to order it.

Oh ! And I also replaced the heater levers so now we have some heat in the car, though I'm not really impressed by the system. The system in the Coupe blows much hotter air. The heater cores may be partially clogged. I need to find a way to treat them the way I did for the radiator, but without taking them out as I hear it's quite a nightmare. Heat is still good enough for now anyway, so this is not on top of the to do list.

All for now.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 14:55:32 by GGR »

jaymanek

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2012, 10:45:55 »
Fantastic work, would love to be a passenger in your car someday, just to get a feel of how a V8 pagoda would have felt...

Ive always felt the 2.8 was enough for the chassis and suspension for this car, any more and they would be too much to handle.

Flyair

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2012, 12:27:38 »
while watching both videos, I couldn't help thinking that you were in the last 25% of the throttle travel anyway, rain or not :D Very impressive!
Stan
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GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2012, 14:40:17 »
Fantastic work, would love to be a passenger in your car someday, just to get a feel of how a V8 pagoda would have felt...

Ive always felt the 2.8 was enough for the chassis and suspension for this car, any more and they would be too much to handle.

Thanks ! If you happen to pass by Washington DC, let me know. We can surely go for a drive.

The 2.8 is doing a fine job, and the addition of a Getrag 265 makes the 280SL a very nice car to drive.

The 560 engine gives easy power all over the rpm range, which is a different feeling. And yes, you need to sacrifice a bit on comfort with a reworked suspension for the chassis to be up to the task when you go heavier on the gas pedal. And yes, you need to be conscius that in this trim the limits of the chassis can be reached much quicker, even with all the improvements. The shell is very rigid though and is taking  the additional torque and power very well.

But you can't really compare, as the car is now too different. It's a beast on its own. Closest comparison would be the Original AC Ace with the 6 cylinders, and then the AC Cobra, though in my case the car has retained all the MB refinement and is very easy to trive. It is not as uncompromising as an AC Cobra. The  trick is to aim for a good compromise, and I feel  I'm not too far from it. Driving the car more will tell me where it still needs to be improved. But for now, I'm already very happy with it.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 14:53:59 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2012, 15:17:31 »
while watching both videos, I couldn't help thinking that you were in the last 25% of the throttle travel anyway, rain or not :D Very impressive!

Thanks ! Well, on the first video I was quite light on the gas as I was trying to have the rear tires get some grip. When that was done I indeed floored it which is a bit before I reach the top of the first hill.

On the second video I floored it when I overtook the car after the ramp. This is in 3rd gear. I then go lighter on the gas pedal after shifting in 4th due to traffic and I then cruise in 5th on the left lane at normal traffic speed. I think the videos are distorting the effect. They don't render well the acceleration which is quite strong in reality, at least on the second video, but they then seem to render a higher speed than in the reality.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2013, 19:11:51 »
Happy New Year to all the ones who follow this thread !

I thought I would give an update today as it is a bit of a special day. It is the first day of the 50th anniversary year of the Pagoda, but it is also the second anniversary day of the purchase of my Pagoda. Indeed, exactly two years ago, I woke up very early and drove two hours out of DC in order to attend an auction sale. It was quite terrible because we had been partying until late and being out in the cold after just a few hours of sleep was really a challenge. Anyway, hangover disappeared when I reached the auction site and saw the Pagoda there, among a few other cars, tractors, furniture, kitchen appliances, etc. A few hours later, I was the proud owner of a sound '71 Pagoda originally from Texas with 78.000 original miles. The car was running though it had been stored for several years. The body was in need of attention as it had quite a few dings here and there. But this was an acceptable compromise as the car had no rust, had an excellent original leather interior and was coming with both tops including a new soft top. I was lucky that my winning bid stayed within the limit of my budget, or nearly so. In fact I had reached my limit but the guy I was competing against was over the phone and hadn't seen the car in person. I had a huge advantage over him as I knew the car was increadibly sound, while he didn't. So I was ready to go slightly over my budget and I drove the auction guys crazy by adding only $100 to each bid when they wanted to add $500. Anyway, my competitor gave up and this is how I became the happy owner of a car I had long been dreaming about, by adding only $100 to the previous bid. My wife was not exactly happy about the purchase at first but now it is her preferred car, which is a good thing, but which also comes with some other challenges !

I bought that car having the V8 project in mind and in the following months I was lucky to gather all the parts I needed for it. Securing an AMG bell housing in the Middle East to mate a Getrag 265 to an alloy block M117 was determinant. I also secured an excellent 5.6 motor as the earlier 5.0 I had was not compatible with the AMG bell housing. I un-dug a W109 6.3 2.82:1 rear end I had and all was there to start the project. I had to finish my Coupe project first, so I seriously dove into the Pagoda project last spring only, when I started controlling and overhauling all elements as needed.

So, this morning, two years exactly after its purchase, My Pagoda 5.6L with manual trans was waiting for me to take it for a spin to celebrate this anniversary and the (near) completion of the project, which I did with great pleasure. I first took it in town and the car is very easy to drive, it could have come out of the factory like that, really. Clutch is progressive, engine is very smooth, brakes are powerful, and suspension is firm but still comfortable.  I then had a nice drive on the highway. The car is tracking impressively well, torque is everywhere in the rpm range giving that impression of endless easy power. Press on the pedal, and the motor goes up into the rpm range with an endless push in the back and with that distinctive Mercedes v8 sound, somewhere between an L6 and an American V8. Engine sound disappears while cruising at 80mph in 5th, only sound in the cabin is the wind flowing around the body. The original stereo radio is doing quite a good job too, now that it does not have to cover anymore the sewing machine noise of the original motor revving at 4000 rpm due to the 3.92 rear end.  This is a really great car to drive and I can’t wait to take it for a long trip.

There are still a few things that need sorting out. The speedo still does not work as the cable is not turning. I also have a small exhaust leak as a weld on the balancing pipe has failed. I will try sorting out these issues in the coming weeks. And of course, some time in spring, I will need to start with body work and treat the car with a new paint.
 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 15:00:58 by GGR »

w113dude

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2013, 22:39:48 »
After all this exiting news, no video to show with us as a New Year Gift? :)

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2013, 22:50:47 »
We've been blessed by some quite nice sunny days lately so I've been using the Pagoda all week end. I took it to a friend who is into racing cars since he was born so to speak, as his father has been building and racing all kind of cars. My friend is just following suit. He put the car on his lift and welded the faulty balancing pipe. He liked how neat and clean the chassis was, and he was quite impressed by how such an engine could fit in there without any body or chassis modification. We then went for a drive and he liked how well mannered and easy to drive the car was. This was until I hit the Mr. Hyde spot on the gas pedal: he then thought the car was totally insane ! He really liked it. Below are a few pictures of the car taken this afternoon.

Car is in need of some body work and a new paint but it is rust free and has a nice leather interior.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 02:59:47 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2013, 01:12:35 »
now that the transplant has proven to be successful I will be selling the original 78.000 miles motor which is in excellent working condition to help finance the body and paint work. I posted an add with pictures here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=17691.0

I will be selling other parts in a near future, like an excellent auto transmission, oil and coolant radiators etc.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2013, 19:23:49 »
got the car through DMV inspection. Went through emissions with flying colors.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #91 on: February 05, 2013, 17:03:35 »
A few weeks back Dimitri came to DC and we worked on deleting the side markers. Here is the story on his blog : http://stricht8.wordpress.com/

We also went for a drive and here is a video he took: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJMRcOJVy4

Last week end I replaced oil in the motor, the transmission and the rear axle, as the car has now some miles on the build. I was hoping to reduce the hydrolic lifter noise by treating the engine with some 20w50 brad penn oil but the ticking noise was still there. So I replaced some of the shims between the valves and the rockers with thicker ones I had and it is now much improved. I also lifted the right side of the engine by half an inch or so by shimming the motor mount, as clearance between the oil pan and the steering linkage was too little. 

The car is really addictive. When I park it back in the garage, first thing I want to do is take it out again for a drive. I think it has to do with the fact that I'm still puzzled by how easy things went and how well the whole project came out. My experience with the coupe was more difficult as I had to fiddle a lot with Megasquirt before having the car run right. I also built la home made 5 speed trans which took some research and work. Here, thanks to my experience with the Coupe which led me to review some technical options, and having been lucky to procure an AMG bellhousing, it was just a matter of putting parts together and drive, with very little to be sorted out. If bodywork and paint go well, I think this will be my best project experience so far. 

Flyair

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #92 on: February 05, 2013, 18:06:44 »
Great to watch the new video... It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car ;)

And the article about filling the holes after side markers is also very interesting. I noticed that many members planned to do the same. I had my restorer who takes care of my Pagoda to do the same and it looks great.
In fact it would be good if you proposed this article to be published in our Technical Manual. I think that our webmaster would help on that....

Good riding....
Stan
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2011 SL550 AMG
2011 GL
2015 GLA

DaveB

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #93 on: February 05, 2013, 18:19:02 »
Wow it certainly gets up to speed quickly.
So Dimitri is dseretakis. It's good to see craftsmanship like that.
Nice understated colour Tobacco Brown
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #94 on: February 05, 2013, 19:18:06 »
Great to watch the new video... It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car ;)

And the article about filling the holes after side markers is also very interesting. I noticed that many members planned to do the same. I had my restorer who takes care of my Pagoda to do the same and it looks great.
In fact it would be good if you proposed this article to be published in our Technical Manual. I think that our webmaster would help on that....

Good riding....

Ha ! Ha ! Yes, though here in the US it's not like in Europe where the right lanes are the slower lanes and the left lanes the faster lanes. Though in theory it should be the same (at least from what I read when I passed my US drivers licence), in practice people overtake from the left as well as on from the right, drive at all kind of speeds whatever the lane, or just all drive at the same speed in all the lanes and you end up not being able to pass. But yes, I have kept that habit of moving into the fast lane (most left) when I enter a highway.

Yes, Dimitri is dsereatakis and he is a magician. Too bad he spends most of his skills on a rusted w123 240D when his pagoda is in need of all of his attention in this regard. I'm sure other members will join me in encouraging him to take proper care of his Pagoda. It needs to have all the drive train taken out and the rest of the car to be put on a rotisserie. I can help him do that. The rest will be a breeze for him.

As per the article, Dimitri is a member of this group so I will let him propose for it to be published in the Technical Manual.

DaveB

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2013, 22:30:40 »
It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car
As you've now got the smooth euro fenders, may as well commision the euro flash-to-pass function and claim that left lane
DaveB
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GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2013, 23:16:34 »
As you've now got the smooth euro fenders, may as well commision the euro flash-to-pass function and claim that left lane

hum... I would need to check if that function is not already on the car. Didn't all of them come with it? Not sure I would use it much though, as I find it a bit rude, at least in the US. In Germany, it's certainly a security feature as some cars can come behind you at an icredible speed.

Tobacco brown is not my prefered color, but I m not sure I like any other color more enough to justify the additional work involved by changing the color. So I will repaint it the same color.


dseretakis

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2013, 01:54:24 »
Great to watch the new video... It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car ;)

And the article about filling the holes after side markers is also very interesting. I noticed that many members planned to do the same. I had my restorer who takes care of my Pagoda to do the same and it looks great.
In fact it would be good if you proposed this article to be published in our Technical Manual. I think that our webmaster would help on that....

Good riding....

I would be flattered to have it published in the Technical Manual:)  As you can probably tell, metalworking is my favorite part of this hobby!

dseretakis

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #98 on: February 06, 2013, 01:59:34 »
Wow it certainly gets up to speed quickly.
So Dimitri is dseretakis. It's good to see craftsmanship like that.
Nice understated colour Tobacco Brown

My pagoda, ironically is just like GGR's - a 1971 tobacco brown 280.  I also like the color for the "understated" reasons you mention:)
And by the way, GGR created a magnificent machine. Having driven his car, I can say that it accelerates briskly and in a very civilized manner. The smooth and precise gear shifting on the Getrag is truly a thing for us with the stock 4 speed manual to envy!  I'm not one who likes to modify my cars but I can say that this is one modification I'd strongly consider.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 02:06:37 by dseretakis »

DaveB

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #99 on: February 06, 2013, 07:56:33 »
Not sure I would use it much though, as I find it a bit rude, at least in the US.

Just joking, it would be a little rude. And might cost you in speeding fines, depending on the police presence on your roads.
It was my understanding that flash-to-pass was disabled on all US versions but that might be wrong.
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190