Author Topic: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project  (Read 179261 times)

GGR

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Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« on: October 28, 2011, 21:18:34 »
Dear All,

My W111 Coupe 5.0 V8 is close to completion so it is now time to think about my next project, which will be a Pagoda V8 with manual transmission. My objective is obviously a fast car, but one which is nice and easy to drive, homogenous and balanced and that remains a Mercedes.

Here is what I have gathered so far: I was lucky to buy a ’71 280SL at an auction. The car needs work, but is very sound rust-wise (former Texas car). I also got a low miles 5.6 M117 engine out of a totaled 560SL, and a very rare AMG bellhousing to fit a Getrag 265 with that engine. I also secured the Getrag 265 transmission, and I also have a 3.27 and a 2.85 rear end.   

My experience with the 5.0 W111 Coupe project will help me a lot for this one. Below is a list of what I intend to do:

1: More power. My plan is to keep the 5.6 long block stock for now. This US 5.6 is a 9:1 CR and camshafts are the same as the euro 9:1 CR. So my idea is to fit an early K-jet and ignition system I have out of a euro 5.0. This will get rid of all electronics and will allow to play with ignition advance by rotating the dizzy. I also want to get dual exhaust line ala 6.3. I believe I will be able to get a safe 275hp @ 5500 with a good 40 kg of torque around 3500 rpm. This is more or less what euro 9:1 5.6s deliver and the difference with the US version is that US engines are chocked at the exhaust and ignition curves may be a bit different. Mated to the Getrag 265 and a 2.85 rear end, this would make for a very pleasant driving I believe. I have a 3.27 on my Coupe and the manual transmission ratios are similar to the Getrag 265. This is OK because torque and power are delivered at higher rpm.

2: Overdrive: 5th on the Getrag 265 is .81. This would be around 2400 rpm @ 80mph with a 2.85 rear end. It is equivalent to a 2.31 rear end in fourth. By comparison 500SECs had 2.24 rear ends.

3: Simplicity and reliability. I guess the early K-jet I want to fit is among the simplest systems, still with no electronics. Ignition will be the 500 hall effect one which is trouble free.

4: Improved handling: I’m planning to adjust the rear suspension so as to have a bit of negative camber when the car sits still. I’m also considering fitting poly-bushings like the ones I have on my Coupe. I’m globally very pleased by how sharp they make the car handle, especially at higher speed. Unfortunately they transmit vibrations at low speed on degraded surfaces, which is unpleasant while driving around in town. I may just go for new rubber, and shift to poly-bushing later if needed.

5: Brake diving. There are different ways to address this, which can be combined. Given that I have a 2.85 rear end out of a 6.3, the most obvious would be to use the brake torque absorbing system. This requires some modifications to graft anchor points in the rear frame rails. It has been done but that particular car I am referring to is not on the road yet, so I don’t know how well it works on a Pagoda. I have the anchoring points that I cut out of a 6.3 donor car.

In addition to the above, weight distribution can be improved. The M117 alloy block engine is the same weight as the M130, but its gravity center is lower. The block also seats a bit more backwards compared to the L6. I’m also thinking of relocating the battery which is ahead of the front axle and replacing it with a dry cell Braille one fitted flat under the passenger side cover behind the seat. These batteries are safe to be fitted inside the passenger compartment. I won’t have A/C (at least at the beginning) and power steering pump will be alloy, further removing weight from the front.
 
6: Swing axle. I may consider fitting a 6.3 rear sway bar I have, but I would need some input here. The idea is to combat that brutal change of camber when easing on the gas pedal in a curve, which brutally throws the car from understeer into oversteer. It happened to me with a W112 300SE as I had to react to an obstacle while I was speeding in a curve and it is SCARY. I got away by counter steering to lock and smashing the gas pedal to the floor but I was really lucky to keep the car on the road. Now the rear sway bars are said to bring a bias towards more over steer. This may be good on a race car, but not necessarily on a road car. Also, I’m not sure how the sway bar would act in relation with the compensating spring which air suspension car do not have. It looks to me as if they will be acting against each other. I read that the role of the compensating spring was to improve motricity by keeping the wheel inside the curve pressed against the road. So I don’t know. I need help here. 

7: A/C. If I install A/C I may consider these compact units they sell which combine heater and A/C, as a replacement of the original heater unit. The reason is that I don’t like the look of the standard A/C system under the dash. So who knows, this may also improve defrost. Any experience here with these units?

Additional considerations: 

Alternator clearance: the metal sheeting around the stock air cleaner may be on the way. I need to think about a solution.

Getrag: I’m thinking of using that bracket that was made to adapt the Getrag to the Pagoda, but I first need to see if the Transmission will end up at the same place as with the L6.

Rear axle cooling tube: it interferes with the chassis. I read that blocking the ports creates some oil leakage from the breather. I may modify the shape of the tube and create a bit of clearance room in the chassis rail. I’ve seen it done on a 6.3 Pagoda project in Germany though I don’t want to do something that radical.



This is where I am now. Any help and suggestions are very welcome to help me achieve this. Work won’t stat really soon because I started a new job that really keeps me busy. But it’s good to have ideas circulated in advance as it will help me fine-tune solutions.

Thanks in advance.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 00:01:23 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 21:20:53 »
I forgot to mention I will be using a set of these 6x14 pressed alloy wheels found on W123 diesels that I also scored, with Vrederstein 205/70 VR14. This is what I have on my Coupe and I'm very pleased.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 21:44:42 by GGR »

Garry

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 23:07:30 »
 The Getrag with a 3.46 axle on my car is putting the revs down at around 2100 for 60mph and is almost too low and strictly an overdrive. With the extra power of the V8 no doubt will make all the difference. I will be interested to see how it goes.
The breather tube does not always hit the body work when the lower ratio axle is fitted.  Mine didnt. Just luck I guess.
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stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2011, 09:03:42 »
Since structural engineering does not appear to be an inhibitor to your project, I would try to graft the rear suspension and differential from a 190E. It would give a LOT of options...
If I had more money and more time this is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to spend my time doing!

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2011, 12:14:37 »
The Getrag with a 3.46 axle on my car is putting the revs down at around 2100 for 60mph and is almost too low and strictly an overdrive. With the extra power of the V8 no doubt will make all the difference. I will be interested to see how it goes.
The breather tube does not always hit the body work when the lower ratio axle is fitted.  Mine didnt. Just luck I guess.

the torque band of the 5.6 is much stronger and lower in the rpm range than the M130. So they can accomodate "longer" rear end ratios.

Very good to know that the breather tube does not always interfere, though I guess it may depend on the condition of the center mount and the adjustment of lateral strut. It gives me hope that I will be able to keep it while modifying the tube a bit, without modifying the floor pan.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 13:45:31 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2011, 12:35:35 »
Since structural engineering does not appear to be an inhibitor to your project, I would try to graft the rear suspension and differential from a 190E. It would give a LOT of options...
If I had more money and more time this is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to spend my time doing!

Fitting W124 rear ends on W111s has been done already:



« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:21:38 by GGR »

mirkwood

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2011, 21:51:21 »
Ok,Yes, the pic belongs to a person on jere who is very well known in SL circles actually. As the pagoda pan is essentially the same as the W111 the W2xx diff is a shoe in with a few brackets. This gives GGR the advantage of using things like a W221 diff head.  with high ratios and ABS etc etc. Air suspension etc is also an option .

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2011, 07:40:18 »
Well, this thread has just cost me about 5 hrs of my life after following the link and reading everything there.
I'm jealous!

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2011, 10:48:29 »
Ok,Yes, the pic belongs to a person on jere who is very well known in SL circles actually. As the pagoda pan is essentially the same as the W111 the W2xx diff is a shoe in with a few brackets. This gives GGR the advantage of using things like a W221 diff head.  with high ratios and ABS etc etc. Air suspension etc is also an option .

No ABS or air suspension on that project. By looking at the picture above I don't understand where the upper side of the springs sit. The lower side is on the A frames, so The original location on the W113 pan can't be used.

Is that W111 with W124 rear end on the road yet? If yes, how is the handling?

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2011, 10:50:19 »
Well, this thread has just cost me about 5 hrs of my life after following the link and reading everything there.
I'm jealous!

Well, you certainly have the competence and experience to do such a project. Best thing would be doing it for a client, so you would even get paid for it.

mirkwood

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2011, 11:47:03 »
No ABS or air suspension on that project. By looking at the picture above I don't understand where the upper side of the springs sit. The lower side is on the A frames, so The original location on the W113 pan can't be used.

Is that W111 with W124 rear end on the road yet? If yes, how is the handling?
I'll send a pic of the diff in place ..

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 14:45:03 »
Thanks for the picture Ron.

I think that a later rear end is a bit too involved for what I have in mind. And I would like to keep body/chassis modification to a minimum.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:22:55 by GGR »

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 15:39:01 »
Quote
Well, you certainly have the competence and experience to do such a project. Best thing would be doing it for a client, so you would even get paid for it.
That may be the case, but all other business would have to come to a halt!
When I'm retired and I've got my nice big workshop set up at home and am working only for a few select clients it would be ideal.
I need a bigger premises as it is but London prices and tight fisted banks are forcing me to stay where I am.

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 18:54:32 »
Below is a picture of a Pagoda fitted with a 6.3 rear end and the anti-dive system. You can see the arms and anchoring points on the left, done exactly as it is on a 6.3. You can also see that the parking brake cable stops in the center have been modified as for some reason, 6.3 cables are shorter and cannot be inter-changed with the standard suspension rear axle ones. Thi is not my car, but the one of an enthousiast doing a similar project. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 20:09:01 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 23:40:07 »
So I drove the Pagoda today, and it's quite a shock after driving the 5.0 W111 Coupe every day. The Pagoda is slow and not crisp on the road.

All the work done on the Coupe is really making a difference. So I'm going to apply that recipe on the Pagoda, but with some differences. The objective is a more relaxed car. So I will keep the stock camshafts (rather than the AMG ones I have on the coupe) and the 0.6 additional liter will make for a more torquey engine. As a result I will go for a 2.85 rear end rather than a 3.27.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:23:58 by GGR »

Benz Dr.

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 07:02:19 »
I think I have a sapre 6.3 axle around here somewhere just in case someone wants to try this conversion.
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GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2012, 13:30:55 »
Update:

Yesterday I pulled out of storage the 5.6 engine I got out of a totalled r107 560SL. A lot of expenses were supposedly made on that car before it was crashed. It then sat quite a while and when I pulled the engine the water pump and fuel distributor were gone. I started removing all what I won't be using: A/C compressor and brackets, air pump and brackets, later ignition distributor, crank VR sensor and the whole intake manifold. Then I started inspecting the engine a bit more closely. Obviously the heads had been taken out as they look super clean, they even look new compared to the block. I took the cam covers off and the chain guides are bright white, showing that they have been replaced very little before the crash. Both cam notches align perfectly with the marks, so all the timing is recent. No need to worry about that. As the heads have been out I also guess the valve guides may have been replaced, valve job etc. So that's good news.

Next steps are to finish the CIS set-up, modify the  flywheel and fit the Getrag 265 to see if all aligns properly. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:26:16 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2012, 14:03:27 »
I also forgot to mention that I will get part of Mark Bulls's Getrag kit to position the transmission.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:28:28 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2012, 13:42:46 »
I spent a few hours last week end cleaning the engine and all ancillaries. I took the crank pulley out with the damper as I will need to replace the crank seal. I also fitted the early 5.0 cam covers. For now the block is all clean aluminum from cam covers to oil pan. Quite a beatiful beast. I'm waiting for some new parts like vavle stem seals, crank seals front and back, water pump and all new rubber parts involved in the intake system.     

« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:31:08 by GGR »

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2012, 20:12:40 »

Great work GGR!   ;D

Please keep us updated on your projects. ;)
A few pics definitely help our understanding here and there... :D :D


Good luck and best regards,

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GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 17:37:28 »
Thanks !

my camera is broken, but I will post pictures as soon as I get a new one.

I'm taking advantage of longer daylight and warmer temperatures to work a bit on that project everyday after office hours.

I got that box with the parts I ordered so I could replace front and rear crank seals, put the repainted front pulley and damper in place, alternator, power pump, new water pump etc. so that the front of the engine is now finished. I also cleaned and put the right exhaust manifold back into place with new gaskets. There is evidence this engine came apart in the past, little before the car it came from was totalled. Also, alternator and power steering pump are remanufactured. This engine was gone through completely not too long ago. So I took the decision to limitate my work to what is hard to do when the engine is in place like the rear crank seal for example. For the rest, I will be leaving it as is, (I usually reseal steering pumps etc.) and fix it in case it needs it at a later stage. That's a bit of a chance I'm taking, but if I'm not wrong, most of the work I would be doing would be repeating unecessarily what has already been done not long ago. So for now, if it ain't broke, I don't fix it. Saves my time and money, and the project moves faster.

Next step is to put the intake system back together with all new rubber parts (donuts, air hoses etc). The EGR system made a mess of all the intake parts which are now soaking in carb cleaner to get rid of all that carbon.  I'm keeping this injection as simple as possible.

Hopefully this week end I will be starting on the Getrag 265 trans adaptation. I have that AMG bellhousing and I will try to do a mock-up install with clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, yoke and bellhousing and see if it all fits properly.

I also gave a thought to the rear axle anti-dive system. I will stick to the traditional set-up for now, as I am planning to use firmer suspension springs to reduce diving. I have a set of blue ones that came out of a modified 3.5 coupe back in the day in Belgium. I need to compare them to the stock ones in terms of wire diameter, number of coils, length etc.

All for now.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:41:29 by GGR »

dseretakis

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2012, 04:15:02 »
Very exciting project. Having seen and heard the growl of the Hatch pagoda 3.5s I can't wait to see your project done! I wonder which will be faster, your coupe 5.0 or your pagoda 5.6!
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GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2012, 10:08:15 »
Thanks ! They will be different.The Pagoda will be more relaxed, with more torque lower in the rpm, and a 2.85 rear end ratio instead of the 3.27. The coupe will do better on a track, the Pagoda will be better for my next coast to coast trip !

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2012, 11:56:06 »
I did quite some good progress this week end. I  took the flywheel and the 5.6 starter ring gear to the machine shop to be modified and mated together. I then finished cleaning all the carbon/gunk out of the intake plenum and TB (what a mess that EGR system did in there !) and put the intake assembly back together with the K-Jet air sensor plate and body with all new rubber parts and fitted it back on the engine together with the left exhaust manifold.

I will do the trans mock-up install once I get the flywheel back from balancing. I'm now trying to find out what clutch disc I should be using. I need to study this further in terms of fitment and abitily to hold power and torque.

Next step will be to put together all the K-jet injection parts I have and select the ones that will work best for my application. Dimitri sent me a book on the Bosh injection systems he had, and another enthousiast sent me a link with the Bosch-Mercedes models and part-numbers correspondance. With all this I guess I will be able to select the right parts and come out with a proper system for my application.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 13:45:59 by GGR »

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2012, 15:30:54 »
Looking good, keep it coming please!