Pagoda SL Group

W113 Pagoda SL Group => Research & Development => Topic started by: GGR on October 28, 2011, 21:18:34

Title: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 28, 2011, 21:18:34
Dear All,

My W111 Coupe 5.0 V8 is close to completion so it is now time to think about my next project, which will be a Pagoda V8 with manual transmission. My objective is obviously a fast car, but one which is nice and easy to drive, homogenous and balanced and that remains a Mercedes.

Here is what I have gathered so far: I was lucky to buy a ’71 280SL at an auction. The car needs work, but is very sound rust-wise (former Texas car). I also got a low miles 5.6 M117 engine out of a totaled 560SL, and a very rare AMG bellhousing to fit a Getrag 265 with that engine. I also secured the Getrag 265 transmission, and I also have a 3.27 and a 2.85 rear end.   

My experience with the 5.0 W111 Coupe project will help me a lot for this one. Below is a list of what I intend to do:

1: More power. My plan is to keep the 5.6 long block stock for now. This US 5.6 is a 9:1 CR and camshafts are the same as the euro 9:1 CR. So my idea is to fit an early K-jet and ignition system I have out of a euro 5.0. This will get rid of all electronics and will allow to play with ignition advance by rotating the dizzy. I also want to get dual exhaust line ala 6.3. I believe I will be able to get a safe 275hp @ 5500 with a good 40 kg of torque around 3500 rpm. This is more or less what euro 9:1 5.6s deliver and the difference with the US version is that US engines are chocked at the exhaust and ignition curves may be a bit different. Mated to the Getrag 265 and a 2.85 rear end, this would make for a very pleasant driving I believe. I have a 3.27 on my Coupe and the manual transmission ratios are similar to the Getrag 265. This is OK because torque and power are delivered at higher rpm.

2: Overdrive: 5th on the Getrag 265 is .81. This would be around 2400 rpm @ 80mph with a 2.85 rear end. It is equivalent to a 2.31 rear end in fourth. By comparison 500SECs had 2.24 rear ends.

3: Simplicity and reliability. I guess the early K-jet I want to fit is among the simplest systems, still with no electronics. Ignition will be the 500 hall effect one which is trouble free.

4: Improved handling: I’m planning to adjust the rear suspension so as to have a bit of negative camber when the car sits still. I’m also considering fitting poly-bushings like the ones I have on my Coupe. I’m globally very pleased by how sharp they make the car handle, especially at higher speed. Unfortunately they transmit vibrations at low speed on degraded surfaces, which is unpleasant while driving around in town. I may just go for new rubber, and shift to poly-bushing later if needed.

5: Brake diving. There are different ways to address this, which can be combined. Given that I have a 2.85 rear end out of a 6.3, the most obvious would be to use the brake torque absorbing system. This requires some modifications to graft anchor points in the rear frame rails. It has been done but that particular car I am referring to is not on the road yet, so I don’t know how well it works on a Pagoda. I have the anchoring points that I cut out of a 6.3 donor car.

In addition to the above, weight distribution can be improved. The M117 alloy block engine is the same weight as the M130, but its gravity center is lower. The block also seats a bit more backwards compared to the L6. I’m also thinking of relocating the battery which is ahead of the front axle and replacing it with a dry cell Braille one fitted flat under the passenger side cover behind the seat. These batteries are safe to be fitted inside the passenger compartment. I won’t have A/C (at least at the beginning) and power steering pump will be alloy, further removing weight from the front.
 
6: Swing axle. I may consider fitting a 6.3 rear sway bar I have, but I would need some input here. The idea is to combat that brutal change of camber when easing on the gas pedal in a curve, which brutally throws the car from understeer into oversteer. It happened to me with a W112 300SE as I had to react to an obstacle while I was speeding in a curve and it is SCARY. I got away by counter steering to lock and smashing the gas pedal to the floor but I was really lucky to keep the car on the road. Now the rear sway bars are said to bring a bias towards more over steer. This may be good on a race car, but not necessarily on a road car. Also, I’m not sure how the sway bar would act in relation with the compensating spring which air suspension car do not have. It looks to me as if they will be acting against each other. I read that the role of the compensating spring was to improve motricity by keeping the wheel inside the curve pressed against the road. So I don’t know. I need help here. 

7: A/C. If I install A/C I may consider these compact units they sell which combine heater and A/C, as a replacement of the original heater unit. The reason is that I don’t like the look of the standard A/C system under the dash. So who knows, this may also improve defrost. Any experience here with these units?

Additional considerations: 

Alternator clearance: the metal sheeting around the stock air cleaner may be on the way. I need to think about a solution.

Getrag: I’m thinking of using that bracket that was made to adapt the Getrag to the Pagoda, but I first need to see if the Transmission will end up at the same place as with the L6.

Rear axle cooling tube: it interferes with the chassis. I read that blocking the ports creates some oil leakage from the breather. I may modify the shape of the tube and create a bit of clearance room in the chassis rail. I’ve seen it done on a 6.3 Pagoda project in Germany though I don’t want to do something that radical.



This is where I am now. Any help and suggestions are very welcome to help me achieve this. Work won’t stat really soon because I started a new job that really keeps me busy. But it’s good to have ideas circulated in advance as it will help me fine-tune solutions.

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 28, 2011, 21:20:53
I forgot to mention I will be using a set of these 6x14 pressed alloy wheels found on W123 diesels that I also scored, with Vrederstein 205/70 VR14. This is what I have on my Coupe and I'm very pleased.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Garry on October 28, 2011, 23:07:30
 The Getrag with a 3.46 axle on my car is putting the revs down at around 2100 for 60mph and is almost too low and strictly an overdrive. With the extra power of the V8 no doubt will make all the difference. I will be interested to see how it goes.
The breather tube does not always hit the body work when the lower ratio axle is fitted.  Mine didnt. Just luck I guess.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 29, 2011, 09:03:42
Since structural engineering does not appear to be an inhibitor to your project, I would try to graft the rear suspension and differential from a 190E. It would give a LOT of options...
If I had more money and more time this is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to spend my time doing!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 29, 2011, 12:14:37
The Getrag with a 3.46 axle on my car is putting the revs down at around 2100 for 60mph and is almost too low and strictly an overdrive. With the extra power of the V8 no doubt will make all the difference. I will be interested to see how it goes.
The breather tube does not always hit the body work when the lower ratio axle is fitted.  Mine didnt. Just luck I guess.

the torque band of the 5.6 is much stronger and lower in the rpm range than the M130. So they can accomodate "longer" rear end ratios.

Very good to know that the breather tube does not always interfere, though I guess it may depend on the condition of the center mount and the adjustment of lateral strut. It gives me hope that I will be able to keep it while modifying the tube a bit, without modifying the floor pan.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 29, 2011, 12:35:35
Since structural engineering does not appear to be an inhibitor to your project, I would try to graft the rear suspension and differential from a 190E. It would give a LOT of options...
If I had more money and more time this is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to spend my time doing!

Fitting W124 rear ends on W111s has been done already:

(http://www.benzworld.org/forums/attachments/vintage-mercedes-benz/293682d1267482794-w111-109-108-113-mods-image004.jpg)

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: mirkwood on October 29, 2011, 21:51:21
Ok,Yes, the pic belongs to a person on jere who is very well known in SL circles actually. As the pagoda pan is essentially the same as the W111 the W2xx diff is a shoe in with a few brackets. This gives GGR the advantage of using things like a W221 diff head.  with high ratios and ABS etc etc. Air suspension etc is also an option .
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 30, 2011, 07:40:18
Well, this thread has just cost me about 5 hrs of my life after following the link and reading everything there.
I'm jealous!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 30, 2011, 10:48:29
Ok,Yes, the pic belongs to a person on jere who is very well known in SL circles actually. As the pagoda pan is essentially the same as the W111 the W2xx diff is a shoe in with a few brackets. This gives GGR the advantage of using things like a W221 diff head.  with high ratios and ABS etc etc. Air suspension etc is also an option .

No ABS or air suspension on that project. By looking at the picture above I don't understand where the upper side of the springs sit. The lower side is on the A frames, so The original location on the W113 pan can't be used.

Is that W111 with W124 rear end on the road yet? If yes, how is the handling?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 30, 2011, 10:50:19
Well, this thread has just cost me about 5 hrs of my life after following the link and reading everything there.
I'm jealous!

Well, you certainly have the competence and experience to do such a project. Best thing would be doing it for a client, so you would even get paid for it.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: mirkwood on October 30, 2011, 11:47:03
No ABS or air suspension on that project. By looking at the picture above I don't understand where the upper side of the springs sit. The lower side is on the A frames, so The original location on the W113 pan can't be used.

Is that W111 with W124 rear end on the road yet? If yes, how is the handling?
I'll send a pic of the diff in place ..
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 31, 2011, 14:45:03
Thanks for the picture Ron.

I think that a later rear end is a bit too involved for what I have in mind. And I would like to keep body/chassis modification to a minimum.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 31, 2011, 15:39:01
Quote
Well, you certainly have the competence and experience to do such a project. Best thing would be doing it for a client, so you would even get paid for it.
That may be the case, but all other business would have to come to a halt!
When I'm retired and I've got my nice big workshop set up at home and am working only for a few select clients it would be ideal.
I need a bigger premises as it is but London prices and tight fisted banks are forcing me to stay where I am.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on November 11, 2011, 18:54:32
Below is a picture of a Pagoda fitted with a 6.3 rear end and the anti-dive system. You can see the arms and anchoring points on the left, done exactly as it is on a 6.3. You can also see that the parking brake cable stops in the center have been modified as for some reason, 6.3 cables are shorter and cannot be inter-changed with the standard suspension rear axle ones. Thi is not my car, but the one of an enthousiast doing a similar project. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 25, 2012, 23:40:07
So I drove the Pagoda today, and it's quite a shock after driving the 5.0 W111 Coupe every day. The Pagoda is slow and not crisp on the road.

All the work done on the Coupe is really making a difference. So I'm going to apply that recipe on the Pagoda, but with some differences. The objective is a more relaxed car. So I will keep the stock camshafts (rather than the AMG ones I have on the coupe) and the 0.6 additional liter will make for a more torquey engine. As a result I will go for a 2.85 rear end rather than a 3.27.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Benz Dr. on February 26, 2012, 07:02:19
I think I have a sapre 6.3 axle around here somewhere just in case someone wants to try this conversion.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 07, 2012, 13:30:55
Update:

Yesterday I pulled out of storage the 5.6 engine I got out of a totalled r107 560SL. A lot of expenses were supposedly made on that car before it was crashed. It then sat quite a while and when I pulled the engine the water pump and fuel distributor were gone. I started removing all what I won't be using: A/C compressor and brackets, air pump and brackets, later ignition distributor, crank VR sensor and the whole intake manifold. Then I started inspecting the engine a bit more closely. Obviously the heads had been taken out as they look super clean, they even look new compared to the block. I took the cam covers off and the chain guides are bright white, showing that they have been replaced very little before the crash. Both cam notches align perfectly with the marks, so all the timing is recent. No need to worry about that. As the heads have been out I also guess the valve guides may have been replaced, valve job etc. So that's good news.

Next steps are to finish the CIS set-up, modify the  flywheel and fit the Getrag 265 to see if all aligns properly. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 07, 2012, 14:03:27
I also forgot to mention that I will get part of Mark Bulls's Getrag kit to position the transmission.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 16, 2012, 13:42:46
I spent a few hours last week end cleaning the engine and all ancillaries. I took the crank pulley out with the damper as I will need to replace the crank seal. I also fitted the early 5.0 cam covers. For now the block is all clean aluminum from cam covers to oil pan. Quite a beatiful beast. I'm waiting for some new parts like vavle stem seals, crank seals front and back, water pump and all new rubber parts involved in the intake system.     

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: 114015 on April 17, 2012, 20:12:40

Great work GGR!   ;D

Please keep us updated on your projects. ;)
A few pics definitely help our understanding here and there... :D :D


Good luck and best regards,

Achim
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 18, 2012, 17:37:28
Thanks !

my camera is broken, but I will post pictures as soon as I get a new one.

I'm taking advantage of longer daylight and warmer temperatures to work a bit on that project everyday after office hours.

I got that box with the parts I ordered so I could replace front and rear crank seals, put the repainted front pulley and damper in place, alternator, power pump, new water pump etc. so that the front of the engine is now finished. I also cleaned and put the right exhaust manifold back into place with new gaskets. There is evidence this engine came apart in the past, little before the car it came from was totalled. Also, alternator and power steering pump are remanufactured. This engine was gone through completely not too long ago. So I took the decision to limitate my work to what is hard to do when the engine is in place like the rear crank seal for example. For the rest, I will be leaving it as is, (I usually reseal steering pumps etc.) and fix it in case it needs it at a later stage. That's a bit of a chance I'm taking, but if I'm not wrong, most of the work I would be doing would be repeating unecessarily what has already been done not long ago. So for now, if it ain't broke, I don't fix it. Saves my time and money, and the project moves faster.

Next step is to put the intake system back together with all new rubber parts (donuts, air hoses etc). The EGR system made a mess of all the intake parts which are now soaking in carb cleaner to get rid of all that carbon.  I'm keeping this injection as simple as possible.

Hopefully this week end I will be starting on the Getrag 265 trans adaptation. I have that AMG bellhousing and I will try to do a mock-up install with clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, yoke and bellhousing and see if it all fits properly.

I also gave a thought to the rear axle anti-dive system. I will stick to the traditional set-up for now, as I am planning to use firmer suspension springs to reduce diving. I have a set of blue ones that came out of a modified 3.5 coupe back in the day in Belgium. I need to compare them to the stock ones in terms of wire diameter, number of coils, length etc.

All for now.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on April 20, 2012, 04:15:02
Very exciting project. Having seen and heard the growl of the Hatch pagoda 3.5s I can't wait to see your project done! I wonder which will be faster, your coupe 5.0 or your pagoda 5.6!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 20, 2012, 10:08:15
Thanks ! They will be different.The Pagoda will be more relaxed, with more torque lower in the rpm, and a 2.85 rear end ratio instead of the 3.27. The coupe will do better on a track, the Pagoda will be better for my next coast to coast trip !
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 22, 2012, 11:56:06
I did quite some good progress this week end. I  took the flywheel and the 5.6 starter ring gear to the machine shop to be modified and mated together. I then finished cleaning all the carbon/gunk out of the intake plenum and TB (what a mess that EGR system did in there !) and put the intake assembly back together with the K-Jet air sensor plate and body with all new rubber parts and fitted it back on the engine together with the left exhaust manifold.

I will do the trans mock-up install once I get the flywheel back from balancing. I'm now trying to find out what clutch disc I should be using. I need to study this further in terms of fitment and abitily to hold power and torque.

Next step will be to put together all the K-jet injection parts I have and select the ones that will work best for my application. Dimitri sent me a book on the Bosh injection systems he had, and another enthousiast sent me a link with the Bosch-Mercedes models and part-numbers correspondance. With all this I guess I will be able to select the right parts and come out with a proper system for my application.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on April 22, 2012, 15:30:54
Looking good, keep it coming please!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 28, 2012, 11:38:45
Thanks !

I got the flywheel back from balancing. I'm now waiting for the clutch parts I've ordered. I'm still to determine what disc to use as thre are several options available.

I've also looked into the camshafts issue. It appears that the 560SL has some odd intake timing most seemingly due to smog regulations which I am not bound to. So I will be using some early euro camshafts I have. I may end up with a good 275/280 hp with very good low end torque that will do well with the 6.3 2.82 rear end.

So the program of the week-end is to swap the camshafts and rockers, replace valve stem seals as well as the inner left chain guide rail (it's all recent but it's for peace of mind. Especially that inner left rail which is the culprit for catastrophic failure when it breaks). 




Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 30, 2012, 00:44:36
So yesterday I swapped the camshafts and rockers, replaced valve stem seals as well as the inner left chain guide rail. I also fitted some 4.5 cam covers as they are not ribbed and look more period with the Pagoda.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 06, 2012, 10:44:29
Update: I got the clutch disc I ordered. I did a mock-up install with the bell housing, yoke, throw-out bearing and clutch in place and it all fits well. I received the Getrag adaptation bracket from Mkbull and it looks good.

I then finished the install of the alternator set-up. Cleaned and painted everything and it's now all in place with the right length belt.

I then checked the ignition distributor I will be using, cleaned it and controlled play. It all looks good. I lubricated the centrifugal advance system and fitted it on the engine with an orange cap so it looks period, together with the smooth top alloy 450SL cam covers instead of the later ribbed ones.

Next step will be to clean and check all the injection fuel circuit: distributor, FPR, injectors etc. and fit them back into place. By then the engine will be finished in its configuration to go into the Pagoda. I will then look into the transmission. It is supposed to be in good working order but I will replace seals and possibly re-seal the rear section also.

All for now


 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 12, 2012, 21:30:31
I finally saw that 5.6L V8 mated to that getrag 265 with the AMG bellhousing. It all makes a big chunck of aluminum that looks quite good. The engine is quite compact with the use of the V valley for the air-plenum and intake manifold. I find it a good combination of displacement, volume and weight that should fit quite tightly but nicely in the Pagoda engine Bay.

I am still to tackle the fuel circuit and injection bits. I am debating whether to send the distributor to be checked/rebuilt, try it myself, or leave it alone. It all worked well three years ago before I took it out of the engine. I heard mixed reports on the rebuild of these fuel distributors, so I may as well leave it alone.  I may then buy the needed test gages and control if all is well once in the car. If not I will decide then what to do. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 21, 2012, 01:30:04
OK, all the injection stuff is back in place. Cleaned injectors and fuel lines. I left the fuel distributor alone as well as the warm-up regulator. They were working fine three years ago and the piston in the midddle of the fuel distributor is moving freely. I also finished all the vacuum lines. So the engine is now finished. I now need to tackle the resealing of the Getrag 265 transmission. After that I will put the 2.85 rear end together.

I spent the week end putting away all the engine parts and stuff I don't need anymore into boxes to make some space in the Garage and getting the trans stuff out. Rear end boxes are also now in the front ready for access. Garage is now all organized for the next steps.

I've also thought of a way to lower the engine. I think I'm going to use different engine mounts that will make the engine sit lower. I still need to find the right ones but I have a few ideas already. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 25, 2012, 13:28:44
I have resealed the Getrag 265 transmission and it is now mated to the engine. Mating that Getrag 265 transmission to the 5.6 M117 engine was one of the biggest modification work involved in that project. Though I was lucky to get one of these AMG bellhousings I still had to modify a flywheel, adapt a starter ring gear, make sure it was positioned correctly relative to the starter motor, find the right pressure plate and clutch disk that would take the Getrag spline patttern while fitting on the flywheel and pressure plate, adapt the input shaft to the bigger pilot bearing, adapt the slave cylinder etc. That's now all done and I'm quite happy with the result.

I also received the engine mounts I ordered. This will lower the engine by a good 3 to 4 centimeters. I hope this will be more than enough. In case it's too much, it is then easier to raise the engine by using shims between the mount and the engine arm as I did on my Coupe.

I've also now taken out all of the boxes with all the rear end bits I need to make that 2.85 rear end ratio that would fit the traditional spring suspension of the Pagoda. I will need to pay proper attention the the ring and pinion adjustment which is not the easiest thing to do, especially if I need to get that left wheel tube bearing race out to replace the shims behind it.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on May 29, 2012, 04:29:31
Wow, this is exciting stuff! Funny the originality Nazis have not attacked yet!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 29, 2012, 11:48:54
Ha ha ! In this regard, I noted with some amusement in the last (very good) Pagoda World the recommendation made to walk away from Frankenstein monsters (p. 23) when at the very next page starts an excellent explanation on how to fit a BMW transmission in a Pagoda. My engine being an MB, the car will be more of a Frankenbenz, if that makes any difference.

Anyway, having members tolerating such a "subversive" thread of mine for that long without firing on it, even if some surely do not approve its contents, shows that everybody is open minded in this group. That's good.

Back to my Franken activities, part of my week-end was used to put together a Franken rear end: I had rebuilt the LSD earlier when I was planning to use that 2.82 on my Coupe, so I didn't have to do it this time. I also took the cooling tube out and blocked the ports with bolts. I may place a vent on the left wheel tube as Dan recommends.
 
I also have checked the sliding joint I will be using and that carrier inside which is often broken. This one was fine so it's all good to go. I will be also using roller wheel bearing on both sides ala 6.3 for better handling the torque. I've ordered all the seals and bushings so next time is to put the rear end together permanently and paint it.

Next step is to come with a system to tilt the brake booster bracket by 45* so that the booster sits more to the left in order to clear the left cam cover. This system will allow me not to drill the firewall more towards the left and keep to pedal assembly where it is.
 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Peter van Es on May 29, 2012, 11:58:58
Ah well, but this is a "Research" project in the proper forum. No-one can complain at that. Research also involves finding out what you don't want to do to your car if you are against un-original modifications.

Keep us informed... and do provide driving comparisons and reviews!

Peter
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 29, 2012, 15:33:54

Keep us informed... and do provide driving comparisons and reviews!

Peter

Thanks! Regarding comparisons and reviews I just made one about my 5.0 Coupe here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=14796.msg114907#msg114907

The experience I gathered with my Coupe project is surely helping me with my Pagoda one !
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on May 31, 2012, 04:28:16
Yes I'll bring my welder. I'm up for creating a franken cooling tube:)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 04, 2012, 12:17:17
Spent a few hours yesterday on the rear axle: tighetened crown on diff carrier as per specs and sealed and closed the rear axle. Still waiting for pinion and wheel axle seals to finish rear end assembly.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 14, 2012, 02:57:44
Painted the rear end and a few other bits. Modified the rear case of the Getrag 265 to clear the Pagoda tunnel. Also cleaned and started taking apart a good spare steering box to reseal it as soon as I receive the seals. Next Saturday I will be supporting some friends participating in the Lemons race in Summit Point. Sunday I will see how to adapt the fuel pump pack.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 23, 2012, 12:56:25
Resealed steering box. Need to take fuel pump pack apart, clean it, repaint brackets and fit new filter and hoses.

Transplant time is approaching. Need to decide what to do about the suspension: Mechatronik springs and shocks, or shocks alone? 

I will start by the rear end, as I did with the Coupe : drop fuel tank as well to check for rust and treat as required. Rust proof all the rear part of the chassis and then repaint with chassis black or tobacco brown like the rest of the car. I'm a bit puzzled because I always heard and read that the under of the Pagodas has to be body color but mine is not. It's more black/gray and I'm sure it's original.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: hkollan on June 24, 2012, 07:04:14
Quote
car. I'm a bit puzzled because I always heard and read that the under of the Pagodas has to be body color but mine is not. It's more black/gray and I'm sure it's original.

Pagodas where never painted on the underside, just primer, PVC coating and protective wax.

Hans
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 27, 2012, 00:09:43
The project has been on hold for a few weeks as I was visiting family and friends in Europe. While there I dug out some suspension sprigs out of my father's basement. They were initially on a W111 Coupe that had been fitted with an M100 6.9 in the seventies in Belgium. They are blue, so I think they are after-market performance items of the era. The rear springs have same wire diameter and number of coils as the stock ones, but they are a bit shorter. Front ones definitely have a thicker wire diameter than original and also look a bit shorter, though I do not have a loose stock front spring to compare length with. I may give a try to that set of springs for now as it is free. 

I now need to find the courage to  dive into the swap. I'm procastinating as I know the work awaiting for me under the car for having done the same on my Coupe and it's quite daunting.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 09, 2012, 01:55:00
So, I finally found the courrage to dive into it. I have decided to start from the rear end. Jacked up the car on stands, battled a bit to disconnect the down pipes from the manifolds, got the exhaust out, then took the fuel pump and fuel tank down, and finally the rear axle. Took the callipers, rotors and emergency brake out as I will need them on the new axle.

The underside of the car looks very sound. There are only a few spots of surface rust mainly where the exhaust line was. My plan is to clean and brush all the underneath very well, rust proof and paint everything.

Tomorrow I will also compare the various springs I have to find the best combination. The compensating spring looks quite long compare to the other I have lying around.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 21, 2012, 11:32:52
The past ten days saw quite some intensive work on the project. Cleaning all the uderside, taking the undercoating out where it doesn't stick anymore, rust proofing and painting. The original MB undercoating is really the ennemy. With time, it dried out in some places letting moisture in between the coating and the metal and letting the rusting process operate quietly. I took all the coating out where it wasn't holding anymore, and fortunately found only surface rust. The other issue are oil and trans fluid leakages that soften the coating and it also came out in some places due to that. This coating becomes a real rust trap with time. 

Anyway, all the under side of the car is now rustproofed and painted and good for 40 more years. Same with gas tank.

I put everything back together with the 2.82 rear axle that I had built earlier. I kept the stock side springs for time being.

I then spent quite some time fabricating a bracket to hold the new fuel pump assy. It now seats nicely in the little space available (compared to the coupe) with a cover to protect it from water splashes and road grim.

Time has now come to deal with the front part of the project.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: justininia on August 22, 2012, 20:04:54
Good day, sir.

Since I am barely qualified to touch a Mercedes let alone make modification suggestions, I will stick to the easier topic of your stereo speakers.  Blaupunkt and others make ultra thin 6.9 three way speakers.   Ultra thin is a bit optimistic but the mount with a 2.25" depth making them a good fit in a lot of tight places.  The speakers might fit into the fender side of the foot well.  The passenger side has the hole for the power antenna but I couldn't tell how much room it takes up.  The driver side is covered and would have to be cut out.  Interestingly, there is an approximately 3" hole down by the hinge pillar with four studded holes around it.  Small speakers could be placed there.

Monsoon used to make magnetic planar computer speakers, about .75" thick.  Though you would need something to produce low-end frequencies (besides road noises ;) ), a set of those would also work.  I don't know if they are still in business but once upon a time I retro fit a set with an iPod, small amp, and a 6AH battery for making a bicycle stereo system.  It should certainly work in a car.  A quick search on eBay for "Monsoon speaker" turned up a set for $15.  The only issue is that they need a powered driver, which means no direct-to-iPod wiring.  Polk Audio also makes a thinner set (1.75") in a rectangular configuration that also fit the bill with a better range since they are two-way.

I also kind of like the idea of replicating the wood grille that covers the center speaker and mounting it to the top of the transmission tunnel in a nice little leather covered box, as close to the underside of the dash as possible.  Mount two small speakers in one box, with each facing a headrest.  Run the wiring under the carpet right up to the radio.  It "busies" up that transmission tunnel but the wood grille should appear to belong on first glance.  Or match it to the facing of the heating/cooling vents. 

The easy answer is to build a reinforcing bracket and mount them in the rear wall.  It mean cutting out holes but the rear upholstery covers the hole.  6x9 drivers easily power through the material and provide enough sound to be heard.  The downside is that they are visible in the trunk.

The interior is still out of the 280 we are fitting with the 3.5L.  I'll take a look at the structure tonight and see if any other ideas come up.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 25, 2012, 18:10:09
Thanks Justininia for these tips on the speakers. I will surely consider them when I reach there.

I have taken engine, trans, front axle, steering box and linkages out of the car from underneath. I then stipped the engine bay out of all what was i it. It is now time to clean and treat surface rust in the engine bay. Front axle had no play but the rubber seals are "cooked" so I will be replacing them. I took the front suspension springs out and compared them with the aftermarket performance ones I dug out from my father's basement: the latter are one inch shorter, have the same number of coils and the wire is thicker, so they must be stiffer by quite a bit. I'm going to use them.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 11, 2012, 11:27:01
Cleaned and repainted everything. 5.6 motor with 5 speed Getrag 265 trans and front axle carrier are in the car. TIGHT FIT is the best to describe the situation. All clears and hood closes. I now have to work on the brake booster/pedal assy.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 29, 2012, 11:47:24
I re-positioned the brake booster and pedal assy a bit towards the left to clear the cam cover. Dimitri came to DC last week and as he is a master welder we did all the welding work that was needed: adjustable shifter rod, throttle actuation rod, 560SL radiator modification, prop shaft (BMW flange onto MB front shaft to mate the Getrag), and the down-pipes that turned to be a real work of art. With the prop shaft welded I could work on engine/trans alignement. This week-end will be spend in test-fitting all the bespoke parts. Then I will have to grind all the weldings, paint all the parts and fit them. By then the mechanical part of the transplant will be finished. I will be left with the engine wiring and interface between the stock harness and engine.

Here are two pictures that Dimitri took:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: jaymanek on October 21, 2012, 14:37:54
I love this thread, look forward to updates.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 16:17:15
I love this thread, look forward to updates.

Thanks !

I grinded all the welds and painted all the parts. All is now in place. I even managed to find a shifter boot that looks good with the square opening in the carpet (originally for auto). All gears seem to select.

I have worked on part of the wiring. I relocated the battery in the trunk. Part of the challenge is that I converted from auto to manual trans so I had to sort out the starter lockout switch which I just did this morning. So now engine is cranking when I turn the key. The other challenge is the US anti-emission set-up of the '71 US model. A lot of wires in the loom that I feel I won't need to hook up, but I still need to sort that out. I also need to hook up the temp sensors.

I also called Timevalve and they're making me a bespoke exhaust: they're also using mandrel bent pipes. Michael was very helpful on the phone and the price is the same as a standard Pagoda exhaust they make. Can't complain. I can't wait to get it delivered, next week if all goes well.

I'am also waiting for a few parts I ordered for the clutch hydraulic circuit. I'm also left with a bit of electrical work, but all in all, first start is quite close. I don't know when this will be because I can only work on it on week ends and I will be away most of November on mission.   
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 21, 2012, 21:32:51
Those rocker covers are not from a 560. Did you swap them for those off a 450?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on October 21, 2012, 22:48:22
Timevalve for the resonator and muffler end?  I hope you're still using the header pipes we made!!!!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 22:52:33
Those rocker covers are not from a 560. Did you swap them for those off a 450?

Yes, they are from a 450SL.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 23:08:35
I hope you're still using the header pipes we made!!!!

I surely do ! They must be the most beatiful piece of work on that car, thanks to all your patience and skills !

Below are some more pictures showing how I fitted the ignition system, showing clearance after moving the brake booster towards the left, and also showing the radiator. Also one picture showing tight clearance with right exhaust manifold.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 23:15:49
Ignition set-up
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 23:17:52
.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on October 21, 2012, 23:22:11
I surely do ! They must be the most beatiful piece of work on that car, thanks to all your patience and skills !

Phew!!  Thanks, it was fun and I learned a lot in the process :)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on October 21, 2012, 23:23:07
Booster clearnace after relocating towards the left. I still need to find a place for the windshield washer tank. I think I'm going to go for a round one in lieu and place of the original air filter housing.

That booster looks like a tight fit.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 23:27:05
Right Manifold tight clearance :

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 23:30:03
Firewall and throttle actuation:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2012, 23:32:26
Well, the radiator picture doesn't load, too big.

Yes, the booster is a tight fit,  but there is enough clearance with the Valve cover including to remove the VC, which is important for maintenance.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: jaymanek on October 22, 2012, 09:45:05
Thats very good.

You should have found a euro 560, hardly any extra electronics and emissions stuff.. and 300 BHP compared to the US 240..

One thing I cannot understand is how they will make the exhaust without the car, on a bespoke creation like this, surely they have to make it to fit?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 22, 2012, 10:40:52
Nice work.
Are you sure that that exhaust is not going to foul when you load the engine?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 22, 2012, 11:39:37
Thats very good.

You should have found a euro 560, hardly any extra electronics and emissions stuff.. and 300 BHP compared to the US 240..

One thing I cannot understand is how they will make the exhaust without the car, on a bespoke creation like this, surely they have to make it to fit?

Not all euro 560 are 300hp. The majority of the Euro 560s were around 270hp with 9:1CR pistons and "euro logs" manifolds. And they are all equipped with the Gen 2 KE-jet system, E being for electronics. Then depending on the market threre is more or less emission stuff on top of it. The US long blocks are the same as the 9:1CR euro long blocks. The power difference with the US version has to do with exhaust and emission control.

So, I went for a US long block because I got a good low mileage one near where I leave. In its current trim, with euro injection, ignition, camshafts and relatively free flowing exhaust I think the engine will be around 270-280 hp. I will need to dyno it when the car is finished.

From my experience with the Coupe project, power is not going to be a problem. There will be plenty of power and torque everywhere and the challenge is going to have the chassis, suspension and brakes handle it properly to get an homogenous result.

the end of my down pipes fall in line with the Pagoda's exhaust line at the transmission level. So I just had to tell Michael of Timevalve where my downpipes are ending.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 22, 2012, 11:51:53
Nice work.
Are you sure that that exhaust is not going to foul when you load the engine?

The exhaust I'm having made may be OK for the 270-280 hp I'm planning to get out of the engine.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pagoden on October 24, 2012, 00:27:16
When I read the post by Stick&Rudder I thought perhaps he was referring to physical contact between the engine and frame components under torque load, as the fit appears so close in the photo.
  
You've made great progress since I saw you last.  And I'm jealous of your Benz Dr rear axle vent upgrade (sure wish I'd known the answer to that one before my axle swap - - heck, wish I'd been smart enough to figure it out for myself).  Do you plan to go ahead with installation of the 109 anti-dive components and/or any other brainstorms you may have had regarding handling limitations?  [I remember when the Chevy small-blocks hadn't been out for very long, there was a guy across town who put a few in MGAs.  His fundamental handling mod was to go out at night and steal a manhole cover or two to bolt  into the trunk/boot.  I was a pretty young driver then and never got my hands on one.  Could be why I'm still here.  I later learned what a nice handling little package the A was in its original form; very sweet, rotating around just where you sat, but with that 265/283 in it...?]    

PS - I was privileged recently to meet with Justininia and his principal.  They're doing some fine work in inserting the 3.5 into their transplant recipient out in the midwest, and now need to get the previous endeavor, a (now) very pretty 190SL, off to its proper home in order to have room for the Pagoda's final reassembly.  It has required, among a few other things, a major rebuilding of the cowl/firewall area; the old heaterbox tin looks like lacework and gives an idea of how far they've come.  Things look quite tight with the 3.5 in there, and a 560 in the same space boggles the mind a little, though I guess it's actually a little shorter vertically, isn't it?... is that from shorter stroke, shallower crank angle, or both?  [I'd never imagined that big V8 as an undersquare engine, though I guess it isn't such a "Big V8" except in a European context.  Plenty big enough for me to contemplate: ~50% increase in hp...hmmn.]

I'm not the only one who takes vicarious pleasure in these projects.  Thanks from the armchair mod-squad for your updates, gentlemen.  We look forward to seeing these creations in the sunlight in The 50th Year.  

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 24, 2012, 07:06:46
Quote
When I read the post by Stick&Rudder I thought perhaps he was referring to physical contact between the engine and frame components under torque load, as the fit appears so close in the photo.

Correct!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 24, 2012, 10:01:47
I see. In fact the picture gives a bit of a wrong impression by flattening the perspective. In reality the manifold is a bit lower and below the area that looks very narrow on the picture.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 24, 2012, 10:30:46


 You've made great progress since I saw you last.  And I'm jealous of your Benz Dr rear axle vent upgrade (sure wish I'd known the answer to that one before my axle swap - - heck, wish I'd been smart enough to figure it out for myself).  Do you plan to go ahead with installation of the 109 anti-dive components and/or any other brainstorms you may have had regarding handling limitations?  [I remember when the Chevy small-blocks hadn't been out for very long, there was a guy across town who put a few in MGAs.  His fundamental handling mod was to go out at night and steal a manhole cover or two to bolt  into the trunk/boot.  I was a pretty young driver then and never got my hands on one.  Could be why I'm still here.  I later learned what a nice handling little package the A was in its original form; very sweet, rotating around just where you sat, but with that 265/283 in it...?]   

PS - I was privileged recently to meet with Justininia and his principal.  They're doing some fine work in inserting the 3.5 into their transplant recipient out in the midwest, and now need to get the previous endeavor, a (now) very pretty 190SL, off to its proper home in order to have room for the Pagoda's final reassembly.  It has required, among a few other things, a major rebuilding of the cowl/firewall area; the old heaterbox tin looks like lacework and gives an idea of how far they've come.  Things look quite tight with the 3.5 in there, and a 560 in the same space boggles the mind a little, though I guess it's actually a little shorter vertically, isn't it?... is that from shorter stroke, shallower crank angle, or both?  [I'd never imagined that big V8 as an undersquare engine, though I guess it isn't such a "Big V8" except in a European context.  Plenty big enough for me to contemplate: ~50% increase in hp...hmmn.]

I'm not the only one who takes vicarious pleasure in these projects.  Thanks from the armchair mod-squad for your updates, gentlemen.  We look forward to seeing these creations in the sunlight in The 50th Year. 


Thanks !

No, I'm not planning to go with the W109 anti-dive components for now. I went for stiffer springs in the front and stiffer shocks all round. I'l see how it goes. I may revert to a complete 6.3 axle if needed at a later stage, but this would require welding some anchoring points in the chassis. So far, I did not have to modify anything on the chassis. The V8 is aluminum block and is the same weight as the original engine. It sits a bit lower and a bit backwards, closer to the car's center of gravity. So handling may be improved.

The 3.5 (M116) and 5.6 (M117) long blocks look the same. The M117 has a bit higher block decks due to a longer stroke. So the M117 is half an inch wider and taller compared to the M116. I'm hoping for 280 hp DIN, which is a bit more than 50% additional power compared to the original 160hp. But the real big difference will be torque.

The car may be in working order for the 50th anniversary, but the body won't have been addressed by then yet. I was lucky to find a rust free example with a very well preserved leather interior and a new soft top, but nearly every body panel has some dings.


How is your aircon install coming along? How is your transmission now?



 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 26, 2012, 11:25:35
I received the ignition green wire and istalled it yesterday. And guess what ? The engine fired right away and idled smoothly. I couldn't keep it running long because I'm still waiting for the exhaust and I don't want the neighborhood start complainig because of the noise. But that's quite encouraging. I'm also happy I didn't get the wiring interface between engine and car loom wrong. I will have to check ignition timing with a stroboscopic lamp when I can let the engine run long enough to reach oprating temperature, as it seems to lack a tad bit of advance.

I'm also waiting for a clutch hose. Once fitted, I will be able to bleed the clutch and the brakes, and hopefully go fo a first test drive.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on October 26, 2012, 22:44:08
Congratulations. Very exciting! Can't wait to drive it ;D
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 26, 2012, 22:56:52
Today I sorted the ignition advance and the engine now runs super smoothly. It also responds very well to throttle, quite promising. No leaks so far. I'm stuck without clutch and without exhaust. All the rest is done. I hope the transmission and rear axle willl be fine. I can't wait! 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on October 27, 2012, 00:08:45
How much longer until exhaust arrives?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 27, 2012, 00:23:16
I was hoping to get it today but it will most likely be delivered on Monday.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 27, 2012, 08:28:50
Exciting!!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on November 27, 2012, 09:56:39
I've been on mission abroad for nearly a month and when i came back home I found the clutch hose waiting for me. So I spent Saturday fitting the exhaust and sorting out the clutch hose. Halas, the hose was not the right one so I had to jerry-rig one with the right endings. This is temporary until I get the right hose. Sunday morning, I was able to go for the first test drive, which was quite exciting. The car works very well, so well that I felt confident enough to take it on the highway. The 5.6L engine is very smooth, transmission works very well, rear end works great, no whining or rattling. Quite satisfactory for a first test drive, especially considering the huge mix of parts this project is, and potentential for something to go wrong at the beginning. On the way, the temporary clutch hose system came apart due to pressure and I had to drive back home without being able to actuate the clutch. Not too much of a problem as I once drove back from Poland to France wit a broken clutch cable, so that was a good training.

The good: everything works well together, no vibrations so far, rear end, transmission, clutch (apart from the hose),  engine, all work superbly. Very encouraging.

What needs to be looked into: the clutch hose obviously, but also an hydro lifter which is noisy. The car sits a bit high in the front, so I may have to cut one coil out of these aftermarket springs I fitted. Speedo doesn't work, I wonder why. I hope the problem is not inside the trans. I also need to sort out the tacho and fit the internals of a V8 electronic one. I also have a small coolant leak that I wasn't able to locate exactly yet. All of this will keep me busy over the winter weekends. But basically, the conversion seems to be very sound, without any major flaw, or at least it's not obvious yet.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on December 02, 2012, 17:28:39
So, not knowing what model of clutch hose would fit my application I went junkyarding and found one which is a perfect fit. I also got a windshield fluid washer bottle out of Jaguar XJS V12. First issue is that it is square when I want a round one to fit in lieu and place of the former air filter housing. Second issue is that there is "LUCAS'' written on it and I'm not sure I want that into a Mercedes engine bay. So I may use it for time being until I find a better one.

I also shortened the front springs by one coil and a half. It's just a bit too much, so next time I'm in there I may fit some thicker rubber spacers. The one I have now are the thinnest ones. I also took one coil out of the rear center spring so that the car sits flat. The effect on handling is amazing. It tracks much better and the car stays nearly flat in bends. I really like it. It must be the combination of a lower gravity center and a bit stiffer springs due to shortening.

The car is now a real pleasure to drive, and is a real autobahn queen in fifth. I can't wait to take it for a long trip.

The car is also very fast. The 5.6 torque curve is amazing. The engine pushes everywhere. It's a bit less revvy that the 5.0 I have in the Coupe due to a longer stroque, and more civilized camshafts. The chassis is also taking it very well, thanks to the various upgrades, and the car is also very well balabced in the curves. better than what is was before thanks to a better weight distribution. I'm very happy with the result.

Still quite a few things to sort out as always with such kind of project, but nothing crazy. this project came out very well, "une voiture tres bien nee" as we would say in my home country.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on December 02, 2012, 18:09:53
Pictures please!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on December 02, 2012, 23:43:29
Below are two links to onboard videos that Dimitri shot with his cell phone. On the first one it just started raining and the road was all greasy/slippery, so I got a bit of problems to get the tires sticking.  The second one is on dry road but there is quite some traffic. I don't know if the speed is well rendered in the videos, but the car is very well mannered and really fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD8ulV5ohKc&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN5MZ99hsOU&feature=plcp
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on December 03, 2012, 07:54:52
Looks and sounds great! I want one! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on December 03, 2012, 15:23:08
Looks and sounds great! I want one! ;D ;D

It's a blast! I still can't believe how well it came out after only two test drives! It feels like the car was designed like that from the beginning, especially if I compare it with my Coupe experience where it took me much longer to have it drive like a "normal" car. It feels safe and reliable, and I'm tempted to take it for our planned trip to Ohio visiting my wife's family later this month. I would need to replace the heater levers first though, as now I don't have a heater in the car and we may be freezing going through the Appalachians Mountains!

You have all it takes to make one, I will be happy to share my experience so that you avoid unecessary try and error.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on December 03, 2012, 18:12:09
Quote
You have all it takes to make one,
Except time.....
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on December 17, 2012, 13:06:32
Update: the car is driving very well. I've now put 500 miles or so on it since conversion and it drives just fine. So it is now officially declared good for service.

The throttle actuating system on that engine is designed in a way that the first 75% of Pedal travel opens only 25% (or so) of the intake butterfly while the last 25% of pedal travel opens the butterfly in full. At the beginning I was finding this irritating as I had to really step on the pedal to get all the power. But after driving in the rain I finally think it's quite a good (and safe) system as otherwise the car would have quite some difficulties to drive straight. It also gives the car a bit of a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde personality: very behaved and very smooth in town and "normal" driving, as one would expect from a Mercedes. And then hell breaks loose on the last 25% of gas pedal travel. Quite a nice feature in the end, as I have two cars in one. A nice Mercedes, and a fast Mercedes.

I ran a 4% mixture of ATF in a full tank of gas to clean the injection system as it hadn't ran for a couple of years before I install it on the 560 motor and the engine is now very smooth. This method is not recommended on newer cars as it can mess up the O2 sensor. I've also put 1 quart of ATF in the engine oil to free up the sticking lifter which also improved things. I had never heard of ATF in engine oil and I discovered it on the net as a trick used in the old days to clean sludge. It also thins the oil so obviously one is not to hammer the engine while it is undergoing that treatment. I am now to replace engine oil and filter.

I have spent some time last week end fitting a windshield washing fluid container in lieu and place of the former air filter housing. The system now works as it should.

I have also sorted out a short I had in the dash board lights which was also taking out the right rear light out. As the rev counter is now out, I got a pair of electronic rev counters out of later V8 Mercedes and I will try to transfer the internals so that I can hook it up to the ignition.

I have replaced the lower radiator hose that had a pin hole in it, so no more cooling fluid leak now.

I also have installed the ipod cable so as to get some good music on our way to Ohio but weather forecast is showing some snow on the way, so we finally won't be using the Pagoda for that trip as I don't want it to drive on salty roads.

Finally, I have used ATF in the Getrag 265 transmission as this is what BMW is now recommending even in older transmissions. The trans is a bit noisy at low speeds and after a bit of search the BMW and the Volvo crowds seem to agree that a 75w90 or 80w90 gear oil (latter being what was originally recommended by BMW) is what keeps these trans most happy. It is much thicker than ATF so gear changes can be a bit notchy for a few miles on cold temp days. One has to use SAE GL 4 spec oil in those trans as the GL 5 spec is damaging the synchros. Redline MT 90 seems to be a good product for my application but I couldn't find any in stores around where I leave (All the gear oil I found were GL 5 specs). So I guess I will have to order it.

Oh ! And I also replaced the heater levers so now we have some heat in the car, though I'm not really impressed by the system. The system in the Coupe blows much hotter air. The heater cores may be partially clogged. I need to find a way to treat them the way I did for the radiator, but without taking them out as I hear it's quite a nightmare. Heat is still good enough for now anyway, so this is not on top of the to do list.

All for now.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: jaymanek on December 22, 2012, 10:45:55
Fantastic work, would love to be a passenger in your car someday, just to get a feel of how a V8 pagoda would have felt...

Ive always felt the 2.8 was enough for the chassis and suspension for this car, any more and they would be too much to handle.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Flyair on December 22, 2012, 12:27:38
while watching both videos, I couldn't help thinking that you were in the last 25% of the throttle travel anyway, rain or not :D Very impressive!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on December 22, 2012, 14:40:17
Fantastic work, would love to be a passenger in your car someday, just to get a feel of how a V8 pagoda would have felt...

Ive always felt the 2.8 was enough for the chassis and suspension for this car, any more and they would be too much to handle.

Thanks ! If you happen to pass by Washington DC, let me know. We can surely go for a drive.

The 2.8 is doing a fine job, and the addition of a Getrag 265 makes the 280SL a very nice car to drive.

The 560 engine gives easy power all over the rpm range, which is a different feeling. And yes, you need to sacrifice a bit on comfort with a reworked suspension for the chassis to be up to the task when you go heavier on the gas pedal. And yes, you need to be conscius that in this trim the limits of the chassis can be reached much quicker, even with all the improvements. The shell is very rigid though and is taking  the additional torque and power very well.

But you can't really compare, as the car is now too different. It's a beast on its own. Closest comparison would be the Original AC Ace with the 6 cylinders, and then the AC Cobra, though in my case the car has retained all the MB refinement and is very easy to trive. It is not as uncompromising as an AC Cobra. The  trick is to aim for a good compromise, and I feel  I'm not too far from it. Driving the car more will tell me where it still needs to be improved. But for now, I'm already very happy with it.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on December 22, 2012, 15:17:31
while watching both videos, I couldn't help thinking that you were in the last 25% of the throttle travel anyway, rain or not :D Very impressive!

Thanks ! Well, on the first video I was quite light on the gas as I was trying to have the rear tires get some grip. When that was done I indeed floored it which is a bit before I reach the top of the first hill.

On the second video I floored it when I overtook the car after the ramp. This is in 3rd gear. I then go lighter on the gas pedal after shifting in 4th due to traffic and I then cruise in 5th on the left lane at normal traffic speed. I think the videos are distorting the effect. They don't render well the acceleration which is quite strong in reality, at least on the second video, but they then seem to render a higher speed than in the reality.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 01, 2013, 19:11:51
Happy New Year to all the ones who follow this thread !

I thought I would give an update today as it is a bit of a special day. It is the first day of the 50th anniversary year of the Pagoda, but it is also the second anniversary day of the purchase of my Pagoda. Indeed, exactly two years ago, I woke up very early and drove two hours out of DC in order to attend an auction sale. It was quite terrible because we had been partying until late and being out in the cold after just a few hours of sleep was really a challenge. Anyway, hangover disappeared when I reached the auction site and saw the Pagoda there, among a few other cars, tractors, furniture, kitchen appliances, etc. A few hours later, I was the proud owner of a sound '71 Pagoda originally from Texas with 78.000 original miles. The car was running though it had been stored for several years. The body was in need of attention as it had quite a few dings here and there. But this was an acceptable compromise as the car had no rust, had an excellent original leather interior and was coming with both tops including a new soft top. I was lucky that my winning bid stayed within the limit of my budget, or nearly so. In fact I had reached my limit but the guy I was competing against was over the phone and hadn't seen the car in person. I had a huge advantage over him as I knew the car was increadibly sound, while he didn't. So I was ready to go slightly over my budget and I drove the auction guys crazy by adding only $100 to each bid when they wanted to add $500. Anyway, my competitor gave up and this is how I became the happy owner of a car I had long been dreaming about, by adding only $100 to the previous bid. My wife was not exactly happy about the purchase at first but now it is her preferred car, which is a good thing, but which also comes with some other challenges !

I bought that car having the V8 project in mind and in the following months I was lucky to gather all the parts I needed for it. Securing an AMG bell housing in the Middle East to mate a Getrag 265 to an alloy block M117 was determinant. I also secured an excellent 5.6 motor as the earlier 5.0 I had was not compatible with the AMG bell housing. I un-dug a W109 6.3 2.82:1 rear end I had and all was there to start the project. I had to finish my Coupe project first, so I seriously dove into the Pagoda project last spring only, when I started controlling and overhauling all elements as needed.

So, this morning, two years exactly after its purchase, My Pagoda 5.6L with manual trans was waiting for me to take it for a spin to celebrate this anniversary and the (near) completion of the project, which I did with great pleasure. I first took it in town and the car is very easy to drive, it could have come out of the factory like that, really. Clutch is progressive, engine is very smooth, brakes are powerful, and suspension is firm but still comfortable.  I then had a nice drive on the highway. The car is tracking impressively well, torque is everywhere in the rpm range giving that impression of endless easy power. Press on the pedal, and the motor goes up into the rpm range with an endless push in the back and with that distinctive Mercedes v8 sound, somewhere between an L6 and an American V8. Engine sound disappears while cruising at 80mph in 5th, only sound in the cabin is the wind flowing around the body. The original stereo radio is doing quite a good job too, now that it does not have to cover anymore the sewing machine noise of the original motor revving at 4000 rpm due to the 3.92 rear end.  This is a really great car to drive and I can’t wait to take it for a long trip.

There are still a few things that need sorting out. The speedo still does not work as the cable is not turning. I also have a small exhaust leak as a weld on the balancing pipe has failed. I will try sorting out these issues in the coming weeks. And of course, some time in spring, I will need to start with body work and treat the car with a new paint.
 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: w113dude on January 01, 2013, 22:39:48
After all this exiting news, no video to show with us as a New Year Gift? :)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 06, 2013, 22:50:47
We've been blessed by some quite nice sunny days lately so I've been using the Pagoda all week end. I took it to a friend who is into racing cars since he was born so to speak, as his father has been building and racing all kind of cars. My friend is just following suit. He put the car on his lift and welded the faulty balancing pipe. He liked how neat and clean the chassis was, and he was quite impressed by how such an engine could fit in there without any body or chassis modification. We then went for a drive and he liked how well mannered and easy to drive the car was. This was until I hit the Mr. Hyde spot on the gas pedal: he then thought the car was totally insane ! He really liked it. Below are a few pictures of the car taken this afternoon.

Car is in need of some body work and a new paint but it is rust free and has a nice leather interior.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 08, 2013, 01:12:35
now that the transplant has proven to be successful I will be selling the original 78.000 miles motor which is in excellent working condition to help finance the body and paint work. I posted an add with pictures here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=17691.0

I will be selling other parts in a near future, like an excellent auto transmission, oil and coolant radiators etc.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 14, 2013, 19:23:49
got the car through DMV inspection. Went through emissions with flying colors.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 05, 2013, 17:03:35
A few weeks back Dimitri came to DC and we worked on deleting the side markers. Here is the story on his blog : http://stricht8.wordpress.com/

We also went for a drive and here is a video he took: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJMRcOJVy4

Last week end I replaced oil in the motor, the transmission and the rear axle, as the car has now some miles on the build. I was hoping to reduce the hydrolic lifter noise by treating the engine with some 20w50 brad penn oil but the ticking noise was still there. So I replaced some of the shims between the valves and the rockers with thicker ones I had and it is now much improved. I also lifted the right side of the engine by half an inch or so by shimming the motor mount, as clearance between the oil pan and the steering linkage was too little. 

The car is really addictive. When I park it back in the garage, first thing I want to do is take it out again for a drive. I think it has to do with the fact that I'm still puzzled by how easy things went and how well the whole project came out. My experience with the coupe was more difficult as I had to fiddle a lot with Megasquirt before having the car run right. I also built la home made 5 speed trans which took some research and work. Here, thanks to my experience with the Coupe which led me to review some technical options, and having been lucky to procure an AMG bellhousing, it was just a matter of putting parts together and drive, with very little to be sorted out. If bodywork and paint go well, I think this will be my best project experience so far. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Flyair on February 05, 2013, 18:06:44
Great to watch the new video... It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car ;)

And the article about filling the holes after side markers is also very interesting. I noticed that many members planned to do the same. I had my restorer who takes care of my Pagoda to do the same and it looks great.
In fact it would be good if you proposed this article to be published in our Technical Manual. I think that our webmaster would help on that....

Good riding....
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: DaveB on February 05, 2013, 18:19:02
Wow it certainly gets up to speed quickly.
So Dimitri is dseretakis. It's good to see craftsmanship like that.
Nice understated colour Tobacco Brown
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 05, 2013, 19:18:06
Great to watch the new video... It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car ;)

And the article about filling the holes after side markers is also very interesting. I noticed that many members planned to do the same. I had my restorer who takes care of my Pagoda to do the same and it looks great.
In fact it would be good if you proposed this article to be published in our Technical Manual. I think that our webmaster would help on that....

Good riding....

Ha ! Ha ! Yes, though here in the US it's not like in Europe where the right lanes are the slower lanes and the left lanes the faster lanes. Though in theory it should be the same (at least from what I read when I passed my US drivers licence), in practice people overtake from the left as well as on from the right, drive at all kind of speeds whatever the lane, or just all drive at the same speed in all the lanes and you end up not being able to pass. But yes, I have kept that habit of moving into the fast lane (most left) when I enter a highway.

Yes, Dimitri is dsereatakis and he is a magician. Too bad he spends most of his skills on a rusted w123 240D when his pagoda is in need of all of his attention in this regard. I'm sure other members will join me in encouraging him to take proper care of his Pagoda. It needs to have all the drive train taken out and the rest of the car to be put on a rotisserie. I can help him do that. The rest will be a breeze for him.

As per the article, Dimitri is a member of this group so I will let him propose for it to be published in the Technical Manual.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: DaveB on February 05, 2013, 22:30:40
It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car
As you've now got the smooth euro fenders, may as well commision the euro flash-to-pass function and claim that left lane
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 05, 2013, 23:16:34
As you've now got the smooth euro fenders, may as well commision the euro flash-to-pass function and claim that left lane

hum... I would need to check if that function is not already on the car. Didn't all of them come with it? Not sure I would use it much though, as I find it a bit rude, at least in the US. In Germany, it's certainly a security feature as some cars can come behind you at an icredible speed.

Tobacco brown is not my prefered color, but I m not sure I like any other color more enough to justify the additional work involved by changing the color. So I will repaint it the same color.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on February 06, 2013, 01:54:24
Great to watch the new video... It seems as if the left line of the highway was the natural element for your car ;)

And the article about filling the holes after side markers is also very interesting. I noticed that many members planned to do the same. I had my restorer who takes care of my Pagoda to do the same and it looks great.
In fact it would be good if you proposed this article to be published in our Technical Manual. I think that our webmaster would help on that....

Good riding....

I would be flattered to have it published in the Technical Manual:)  As you can probably tell, metalworking is my favorite part of this hobby!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on February 06, 2013, 01:59:34
Wow it certainly gets up to speed quickly.
So Dimitri is dseretakis. It's good to see craftsmanship like that.
Nice understated colour Tobacco Brown

My pagoda, ironically is just like GGR's - a 1971 tobacco brown 280.  I also like the color for the "understated" reasons you mention:)
And by the way, GGR created a magnificent machine. Having driven his car, I can say that it accelerates briskly and in a very civilized manner. The smooth and precise gear shifting on the Getrag is truly a thing for us with the stock 4 speed manual to envy!  I'm not one who likes to modify my cars but I can say that this is one modification I'd strongly consider.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: DaveB on February 06, 2013, 07:56:33
Not sure I would use it much though, as I find it a bit rude, at least in the US.

Just joking, it would be a little rude. And might cost you in speeding fines, depending on the police presence on your roads.
It was my understanding that flash-to-pass was disabled on all US versions but that might be wrong.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Flyair on February 06, 2013, 18:34:30
Here in Poland we use flashing lights while driving to say "thank you" when somebody lets you get in say on a busy road or in a traffic jam etc, while to indicate on Highway that you want to overpass… you just leave your left blinker on… some dummies are quite resistant to this and are happy blocking the traffic by their slow-motion like driving on the left line…  Kind of universal disease I guess ;D   
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 06, 2013, 19:05:04
In France flashing in-coming traffic is to warn them of a danger, such as an accident or police.  I've also seen it used here in the US to warn about police. In Liberia where I worked during the civil war, flashing incoming traffic was to ask if the road was safe ahead.  Depending on the way the in-coming trafic was flashing back it meant the road was safe, or on the contrary there was a danger (usually an ambush).
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on February 06, 2013, 22:52:08
Here in Poland we use flashing lights while driving to say "thank you" when somebody lets you get in say on a busy road or in a traffic jam etc, while to indicate on Highway that you want to overpass… you just leave your left blinker on… some dummies are quite resistant to this and are happy blocking the traffic by their slow-motion like driving on the left line…  Kind of universal disease I guess ;D   
The left blinker thing is also done in Greece. The traffic accident fatality rate in Greece is one of the highest in the world. Too many idiot macho drivers. If I'm driving my old MB there in the left lane at a reasonable speed and some clown in a fiat thinks  going to move over for him so he can drive at three times the speed limit so he can kill some more people then he's mistaken.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 11, 2013, 00:34:01
As noted in a new thread in the body section, I showed the car to a guy who works on body and paint from home and has good reputation in the area. He works mainly on US cars but I guess he can also do a good job on the Pagoda, He really liked the car and looked motivated. I still need to see some of his work in person to take my final decision.

I hope I will have the car painted by spring so that I can participate to the Pagoda 50th anniversary gatherings. I also have friends coming from Europe in July and we will be visiting Colorado and the Rocky Mountains. I want to use the Pagoda for that trip, as I'm sure this will be a dream car in a dream environment.

Today I spent some time tuning the engine: ignition advance and mixture. I also realized the gas pedal was not opening the butterfly fully so I adjusted it illico presto. That was a bad move because I had planned doing a few other things on the car but I couldn't help but drive the car all afternoon instead.  I don't want to seem to be ranting but that car is simply addictive. I now start worrying for my mental health !
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Flyair on February 11, 2013, 07:01:44
Dimitri

stupid driving style, as if there was no tomorrow can be found in many countries, where the James Bond title Dye and let dye" applies quite accurately. Maybe in Greece this is enhanced by the otherwise ancient traditional inclination towards classical tragedy where climax mimes and catharsis are part of ??? ;D
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on February 13, 2013, 04:16:24
Dimitri

stupid driving style, as if there was no tomorrow can be found in many countries, where the James Bond title Dye and let dye" applies quite accurately. Maybe in Greece this is enhanced by the otherwise ancient traditional inclination towards classical tragedy where climax mimes and catharsis are part of ??? ;D

I don't know... The Greeks are such awful drivers. So many horrific accidents. Every weekend dozens die - it's the norm there. The  worst is when these idiots try to overtake people on single lane mountain roads without barriers. What are they thinking!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 19, 2013, 11:20:35
Yesterday I took the Pagoda for a drive with the intention of measuring mpg. I drove 70% on the Interstate in 5th at 70mph, 20% on smaller roads at 50 mph and 10% in town. The car used 4.58 gallons for a 125 miles trip, so it returned 27.3 mpg (8.9 l/100km). I think I will have to do this again in different conditions because I'm having a hard time believing it. 5th is .81 and rear end is 2.82:1, so it is equivalent to a 2.24:1 rear end with a 1:1 top gear, like on the US 500SELs (w126). Anyway, this is way better mileage than I was expecting. I think it's even better than a stock Pagoda. My trip to Colorado this summer is going to cost me less than I was expecting !

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on February 21, 2013, 01:08:46
That is excellent news! Amazing how you can get better mpg than a stock pagoda which will barely give 20 mpg under the best conditions.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pagoden on February 21, 2013, 08:25:03
This project is so well conceived and executed that I hate feeling skeptical, but.......Wow, that's a lot of mileage from a lot of engine.   ..........   And then, on reflection, this enormous productivity issuing from a small urban back yard in a former malarial swamp with not even a garage on it is a very great lot also, sooo ..... mucho kudos, and my respects to the chef (and chief bottlewasher).       
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 21, 2013, 10:31:02
Thanks !  True that I drove as if I had an egg under the gas pedal but still, it's hard to believe. I even wondered if the pump at the station was working well. May be it filled more gas than it measured. I also wonder if the difference of temperature played a role. I filled the tank early morning before going and it was very cold. Then temperatures went up during the day so I guess the gas expanded in the tank leaving less space for refill. I will have to measure mpg again on a longer trip.

I also wonder if the engine runs too lean? I looked at the spark plugs the other day and they were quite white, so I increased richness by 1/8 turn. This 5.6 motor is equipped with early euro camshafts, K-jet system and ignition. Theory says the cone of the K-jet air intake is shaped specifically for each engine (though by comparing part numbers on EPC this cone is the same as on early 380s, so it is not that specific). These K-jet are known to be too rich at lower revs, and leaner at higher rev. It looks to me it's the contrary in my case, which would explain this Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde behavior: lean at lower rev and light throttle for a very civilized and economical drive, and rich at higher rev and greater throttle opening for maximum power. If that's the case, I'm not complaining, though the only way to know for sure is to put the car on a dyno and measure Air/Fuel ratio in different conditions.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 24, 2013, 00:52:09
Today I did the same circuit in the same conditions, but in the midle of the afternoon to avoid temperature differences. I also refilled at a different pump in case the one of last week was incorrect. Result is 4.4 gallons for 125 miles. That is 28.4 mpg or 8.3l/100km. I guess I could reach 30 mpg on a flat course and stabilzed speed. That's great !
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Flyair on February 24, 2013, 07:30:40
GGR,

Come on… any pretext is good to ride a Pagoda, especially with such an engine. Confess it :D

Fortunately the list of items to be potential candidates for road check is long enough to give you (and us reading your posts) great enjoyment and satisfaction :D. Just don't forget to stick to English. Voilà. 


 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 24, 2013, 10:47:41
GGR,

Come on… any pretext is good to ride a Pagoda, especially with such an engine. Confess it :D

 

Well, I do confess it ! As I wrote in an earlier post, this car is absolutely addictive. And I can get a fix for even cheaper than I thought !

That particular tour is my junkyarding tour. Regularly I visit three Crazy Ray's junkyards (Mt Airy, Baltimore SE and Jessup) to see if they got anything intersting in. My wife calls it my treasure hunting. This is how I was able to gather all kind of parts for my projects at a reasonable price, though ''ïnteresting" cars start being less and less. When I started that circuit four years ago there were still regularly some w108 and w111 cars coming in, but it's now drying up. I think I was lucky to do my projects (and fill my garage with all kind of treasures ! Ask Dimitri !) early enough. They still get some good stuff in from time to time, but it doesn't stay long ! I told the story of that 633 BMW Getrag 265 transmission with cable pick-up in an earlier post. I was lucky to get it, but another day I "lost" some r107 500SL tri-Y exhaust manifolds.

Dimitri is also doing the same when he comes down to DC, as cars are less rusted here than where he lives. This is how he keeps his die hard w123 going. He cuts some body and chassis parts out of solid w123s here and welds them back on his car to replace the bits and pieces that have fallen on the road ! BTW Dimitri, you drive that diesel because of high mpg. Just stuff a 5.6L in your Pagoda and save in style !
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 05, 2013, 18:11:26
Update

One week ago I (stupidely) broke the balancing pipe While driving off the side of the road which was at a steep angle and the tarmac was quite thick. So last week end I took it to a friend who has a lift and he welded the balancing pipe back into place. I also adjusted the transmission alignment as with time the motor and trans mounts are sinking into place and the alignement had to be re-adjusted to make sure the flex disk works properly. It was nice seeing the car from undeneath again : it starts having road grim, like any functional car, which is comforting given all the transforamtions. It means the project is viable.

I also had the rev counter working. I put the internals of a W126 V8 one inside the Pagoda counter. looks good and works well.

I checked my spark plugs and they were looking very whitish. So I incresed richness by 1/8 of turn. The car responds better than before at lower and mid rev. I don't know yet what will be the effect on MPG.

I took the car to a Friend who just bought an E55 AMG with 470 hp on it. We tried both cars one after the other and that E55 is insane.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on March 06, 2013, 13:10:05
Why don't you put an E55 in your coupe? Is that an M119 engine?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 06, 2013, 20:26:48
It's an M113 with a compressor on top. Smaller than the M117 actually. I think this is the engine Mechatronik is using for their conversions.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on March 07, 2013, 01:22:19
So are you going to Mechatroniksize your coupe?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 07, 2013, 02:38:32
Well, the Coupe is fine the way it is for now. Though an M120 would be tempting.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on April 09, 2013, 22:12:28
Congrats on your progress with the Getrag manual transmission/5.6L upgrade project.  I've continued to advance my 5.6L engine upgrade project in my '68 Pagoda this winter and wanted you to know it is now running. I don't know if you got the video I emailed to you.  

Should be able to test drive it on the road soon now that the weather up here in the north is regularly above freezing.  I noticed you had posted the photo of my 6.3 rear axle with anti-dive in your post #13.   Soon I should know how well it works! ;)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Jim Rosenthal on April 14, 2013, 11:55:35
I read this entire thread- wow. I am very impressed and would love to see the car. I am in Annapolis. I have heard about Hatch's 3.5 cars- I think this would outdo them as the alloy block engine is lighter and makes more power. Did you see the 111 convertible that was for sale at Fantasy Junction a few months back? It is a low-grille 6-cylinder car that they did a 5.6 driveline transplant into; I think they used the 6.3 rear axle set as well. Well done, but I think your car is faster...
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Jim Rosenthal on April 15, 2013, 01:09:32
Courtesy of Gael's kind invitation, I got to spend the day with fellow Mercedes enthusiasts at Chuck Taylor's place. And I was able to drive Gae's 280SL, which is really beyond description; it's perfectly civilized until you get into it, and then you feel the rush of power. It's amazing. The fact that it is a manual shift is even better, because you can wind it up in any gear you choose. I was not familiar enough with either the car or the roads to really drive it, but in the passenger's seat with Gael driving, the car really shows its personality- a Mercedes muscle car for certain, but very tractable at low speeds and throttle openings.

One could drive this car for days and never know what it is capable of, until you decide to open it up and then watch out!  The feeling of torque rocketing the car forward would be addictive to say the least. If I had to compare it to any of my own cars, I'd say it is a cross between my Cobra and my 500E, if you can imagine that.

Thanks to all especially Gael, and hope to see you all again soon!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on April 15, 2013, 06:47:30
I'd love to do this but I don't have the spare time, although if anyone wants one for themselves I'm happy to be commissioned!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 15, 2013, 10:43:11
Wow ! Thanks Jim ! I'm sure you will have the opportunity to drive the car again on longer distances to get better familiarized with it. It was a pleasure to meet and talk with you. I wish you the best with your dogleg getrag project and I hope I will be able to see your Citroen DS one of these days !
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on April 15, 2013, 21:28:12
I couldn't agree more, Jim. Gael has created a civilized monster. This is something that Mercedes should have been churning out of the factory during the later years of pagoda production. Having driven his car I can say that it was flawlessly executed!

Courtesy of Gael's kind invitation, I got to spend the day with fellow Mercedes enthusiasts at Chuck Taylor's place. And I was able to drive Gae's 280SL, which is really beyond description; it's perfectly civilized until you get into it, and then you feel the rush of power. It's amazing. The fact that it is a manual shift is even better, because you can wind it up in any gear you choose. I was not familiar enough with either the car or the roads to really drive it, but in the passenger's seat with Gael driving, the car really shows its personality- a Mercedes muscle car for certain, but very tractable at low speeds and throttle openings.

One could drive this car for days and never know what it is capable of, until you decide to open it up and then watch out!  The feeling of torque rocketing the car forward would be addictive to say the least. If I had to compare it to any of my own cars, I'd say it is a cross between my Cobra and my 500E, if you can imagine that.

Thanks to all especially Gael, and hope to see you all again soon!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 16, 2013, 13:43:12
Thanks Dimitri. The car is on the road thanks to you and your welding skills which allowed us to fabricate all the specific parts over a week end. Notably that gear linkage, which is nice and firm. Everybody likes the way it feels while shifting and is a great part of the pleasure when driving this car. The downpipes are also quite a work of art.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 01, 2013, 14:03:06
Update:

Dimitri had started on the bodywork by improving the situation with the front left fender which was poorely repaired after a fender bender (before my ownership). I've been recommended a local bodyshop by a Group Member and I've seen two cars, including a Pagoda, on which this bodyshop has worked. I think it is offering a reasonable quality for the money so I went ahead, detrimmed my Pagoda and drove it yesterday to the bodyshop. I'm supposed to get it back in two to three weeks from now, which will allow me to put it back together before my trip to Colorado with it in July. And the car will also be ready for the 50th anniversary events !

I've already sold the long block, transmission, injection pump, injectors, 3 bumper guards and a few other items left over from my conversion, to help me pay for the body and paint work. I still have quite a number of items for sale, so in case someone needs anything, go and have a look in the "Items for Sale" section, here : http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=18357.0
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 25, 2013, 10:51:51
Update:

The body shop has been delaying a bit, and then found that the work involved to do a good job was more than they initially thought. but they are taking this project seriously and are determined to reach a satisfactory result. They were supposed to paint it yesterday but they weren't happy with the right door and the hood. So they reworked on them, pushing painting back to next week. They were still at it yesterday evening past 9 pm. A few pictures :

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 25, 2013, 11:01:03
In the meantime, I've been reproducing the bumper brackets in aluminum. I took the idea from what MB did on the 450 SLC 5.0. The resistance to impact will surely be less, but the weight gain is quite impressive, about 8lb, ot 1 kg at each corner where weight saving is most effective. Next element I will be looking into for weight saving are the seats. BTW, I never took the seats out. Does someone know how much they weigh? Usually MB seats are very heavy, but is that also true on Pagodas?

Here are pictures of the brackets:

 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on May 25, 2013, 17:02:14
Those brackets look great! Did you make them yourself?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 25, 2013, 18:42:56
I was initially planning to do them myself. But while I was looking for the adequate pieces of aluminum, I ended up in a workshop all equipped to reproduce these kind of things. So I went with them. They have the jigs ready so they now can reproduce them easily. I may have them produce a little series if some people are interested.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 03, 2013, 20:04:07
I got the car back from the paint shop and put it back together. I'm quite happy with the result. I am still missing the euro headlights and the hood ornament. They will come in due time. Below are some pictures:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Peter van Es on June 04, 2013, 07:06:46
Looking good, I like the colour....

Peter
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on June 04, 2013, 07:19:04
Looking good! A proper wolf in sheep's clothing now!

What grade of Aluminium (Aloominum!) are those brackets made from?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Flyair on June 04, 2013, 08:25:22
Fantastic result. The final touch (headlights and emblem) will in my humble opinion enhance her beauty, but will also efficiently drain your pocket, from whatever was left :-\

However, as they say: love doesn't count... ;D
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 06, 2013, 02:37:42
Thanks!

I don't know what aluminum grade it is. I should call the shop who did it and ask. It is quite strong and springy, I was surprised. I would have expecred aluminum to be weaker.

I have serviced the car, new engine oil and filter, checked other fluid levels and brake pads and greased all the fittings. Good thing i don't have to worry about ignition and valve clearance adjustment anymore. So now the car is ready for the trip to Colorado in July.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 08, 2013, 05:30:43
So, we have been on the road since 1st of July and the car is really a pleasure to drive. Below are two pictures taken earlier today is South Dakota:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on July 10, 2013, 03:25:19
Your car is looking good!  Good to see that it's holding up so far!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 20, 2013, 13:34:07
Thanks,

We are now back home from quite a long trip that took us from DC to Yellowstone and back. We spent two weeks of enjoyment with friends who came to visit from Europe. We visited many beautiful places and parks. What a beautiful part of the world this is. The car worked flawlessly and never missed a beat. Driving it for such a long period in one go revealed its personality fully which will help me do some little improvements to optimize its grand tourer aptitudes and homogeneity. Below are some pictures of the car taken along the way:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 20, 2013, 13:39:56
More pictures:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: kampala on July 20, 2013, 21:07:18
Very nice.  Really good to have read the history of your impressive modifications that have lead to this multi-thousands of miles trip.  

Love seeing a Pagoda dirty from real use!  Please continue to advise on your future mods.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 21, 2013, 01:29:36
Thanks. I'm curious about your user name. I happen to have lived in Kampala a few years ago. Do you have any relation with Uganda?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: kampala on July 21, 2013, 06:34:47
I rarely meet anyone who has lived in Uganda, let alone find it on a map.   I am from Uganda ... will PM you some details since they are sooooo non-pagoda related.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 29, 2013, 21:48:49
I rarely meet anyone who has lived in Uganda, let alone find it on a map.   I am from Uganda ... will PM you some details since they are sooooo non-pagoda related.


I know there is a red W111 220 SE RHD cabriolet somewhere in Uganda as I saw it several years in a row at the Nairobi "Concours d'Elegance" and it was driving from Uganda. I nearly purchased a light blue W111 220SE RHD Cabriolet while I was living in Nairobi. I'm now kicking myself for not having done so. I also had a neighbor who had a blue RHD Pagoda in Lakeview.

Below is an additional picture from my trip in July. Note the Mount Rushmore National Memorial in the background:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 06, 2013, 14:25:31
Update:

I did some servicing to the Pagoda last Saturday after this long trip across the US. Checked the brake pads which are still good to go for a while, did all the greasing, checked oil level in the transmission and rear end. I replaced some shims on top of the right bank valves by slightly thicker ones as this engine always had a bit of ticking since I fitted the euro camshafts. The engine is now quiet as it should.

While I was there, I also replaced the front suspension spring top rubber shims by thicker ones and I feel the car is now sitting as it should in the front.

I have also decided to replace the mechanical fan by an electric one, the reason being that I couldn't reuse the Pagoda shroud after my transplant. As a result the engine temperature had a tendency to increase a bit in slow traffic during the heat wave. In addition the visco coupler I have seems not to disengage properly at higher rpm inducing a lot of propeller noise as long as the coupler is engaged.  So I ordered a 16" electric fan as well as a variable control unit which will engage the fan at 60% above a certain temperature threshold and increase up to 100% depending on coolant temperature. It will also keep the fan running for 30 seconds after the engine is shut off. I will install it as soon as I receive it and see if it solves my issue. If not, I will have the radiator recored with an upgraded core (which I did on my Coupe with great results).

I have also ordered a Retrosound radio, two 4" single voice speakers that will replace the stock ones in the black plastic casings in the foot wells, and an oval dual voice speaker (that accommodates stereo) to put on top of the dash under the wooden grill. I could have had my original radio rebuilt, but I did this on my Coupe and it didn't last very long. So this car not being original anymore, I thought that upgrading to modern technology with RDS and ipod input  for a very reasonable price was the way to go.

I'm also waiting for a case of 20w50 Bad Penn oil which is said to have the required amount of zddp for the camshafts.

I checked all the rest on the car and all is good. This car is quite easy to maintain including washing it. It is so small that washing it takes about half the time it takes me to wash my Coupe!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 06, 2013, 14:31:27
At one point I will also need to do some work on the exhaust line as it could sit better than it does now. This will involve some cutting and welding which I am not currently equipped for.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 09, 2013, 00:35:26
Yesterday I received the electric fan and the management device so I installed them in the evening in lieu and place of the mechanical fan. The results were very disappointing as the 16" 2800 cfm fan was unable to keep the engine at acceptable temperatures in slow traffic. 2800 cfm is supposed to be sufficient for my engine as a main fan. I couldn't go bigger for clearance reasons. So I put the mechanical fan back in place and all is back as it was. I left the wiring in place though as I will try to install the electric fan as a pusher in front of the radiator as an additional cooling capacity, next time I have the hood off.

I also got an aluminum 500SL air cleaner housing which is much lighter than the steel 450 one I had up to now. Got the Brad Penn oil and made the oil change.

While I was stopped by the side of the road fiddling with ignition timing adjustment a modern BMW stopped and the guy asked me if I needed some help. I didn't and the guy then made me notice while laughing that this was a BMW guy stopping to help out a Mercedes guy. I should have told him I also own a '72 BMW 3.0 csi, but it didn't come to my mind then. Otherwise a lot of thumbs up, people asking if I want to sell the car etc. The Pagoda is definitely drawing much more attention than the Coupe.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on August 16, 2013, 02:09:57
It's drawing more attention than the coupe because it is freshly painted!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 16, 2013, 03:01:30
Yassou Dimitri!

Yes. new paint makes a big difference. But I had several people tell me the Pagoda is their preferred car, or dream car.

I finally installed the Retrosound radio. Not bad, though an original Becker with speakers all in good shape certainly does as well. I still need to see on the long run if I like the Retrosound setup or if I have my original radio checked by the guys in NJ. Problem is I had the radio of my coupe checked. It worked well for a while and then it started having problems again. I don't know how durable having these old radios checked is.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 26, 2013, 22:55:48
I received the 75 degrees thermostat and the 9 blades plastic fan propeller and installed both. The car runs a bit cooler on the highway and temp doesn't go up as much as before in stop and go traffic. But the best of it is that the terrible fan noise is also gone. The design of the blades on the new propeller must be different. This makes a great difference and driving it is much more enjoyable now.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 13, 2013, 00:18:56
Took the car for a drive to make sure all was OK before heading to Williamsburg P-50. Increased richness just a bit and car is running smoother.

I also tried the fit some all red tail light lenses I have as I think I like them better. But I realized the bulb holders are different so I need to procure some before swapping the tail lights. 

I also got a speedo gear drive out of a spare Getrag 265 I have, and I will fit it in my car as soon as I order the trans rear seal and sealing paste for the flange. I also need to order a 2.5mm shim that goes between the gear on the shaft and the rear bearing in the trans as the one I got out of the spare trans is only 10mm. I should be able to fit all that in my car just by disconnecting the drive shaft and popping the trans flange and seal out. This will get the speedo working though I will then need to have it re-calibered or get a system of some sort between the cable and the speedo so that it reads the correct speed.

Trunk is full of stuff, including a set of rare 14x6 pressed aluminum wheels in case someone at the gathering is interested. I posted them for sale to help finance a pair of euro lights, here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19156.0
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 21, 2013, 22:13:05
Last week end I drove to Williamsburg for the 50th anniversary event and it was very nice to meet with so many other Pagoda enthousiats. It was also great to put some faces on forum user names. This led to some funny situations when I thought I was talking to someone I didn't know while in fact we knew each other from the forum. Dan, Pierre, Joe and Gernold spent their time helping Pagoda owners with all kind of support and advice. It was really great of them, and they were clearly enjoying doing so.

The event was also attended by a very nice 300SEL 6.3. I have a soft spot for these cars as I owned one in Europe and drove it about 50.000 kms in the most beautiful places (I have fond memories of the "Route Napoleon" where the car's comfort and performance came to their best!)  before Kienle sold it for me (I really recommend their services). A very nice 600 SWB also attended, in 904 dark blue which is my favorite color for MBs of that era. I had the joy of going around in it as a rear passenger. The whole purpose of the ride was to listen to a strange noise the car was making and help the owner sort out the issue. But clearly, for a while, I had the impression of being a Head of State driven around by a chauffeur and a great body guard sitting in the front passenger seat (for the ones who know Pierre Hedary, you got the picture!). The other passenger next to me would have been the Host Head of State. For the rest, I guess passers by may have thought we were a bunch of lunatics as we were driving around the block again and again with our heads sticking out of the four windows trying to determine where that noise was coming from (most likely from the drive shaft, though I have my doubts as at one point I thought the noise was rpm related). To make the picture complete, for some reason, the other rear passenger came in with a spare steering wheel which I was holding mimicking driving from the rear. In fact I think we got quite lucky that nobody called 911!

But the really crazy thing about the event (at least for me!) is that it was attended by no less than three Pagoda V8s!!!!!!! That was a good 7.5% of the attending cars!  All three were fitted with MB M117 engines. The first one is an older conversion on a 230 which drove from Kentuky. It is equipped with an alloy block 5.0L motor, an automatic transmission, and I believe a 3.27 rear end. The second one is a conversion on a 280SL, white with red interior, that was just finished a few days before the event. It drove from New England with a 5.6L, automatic transmission and 2.82 rear end. The finish of this conversion is outstanding, and the motor was fitted with a 4.5 intake manifold and EFI so as to look period correct. The idea is the same as the one developed by Hatch and Sons, but the concept was taken further by fitting the rear brake anti dive system as found on the 300SEL 6.3. The third one was mine, with a more sporty approach given the manual transmission, Euro spec motor, general lightening and work on the suspensions. The owner of the second car and myself exchanged cars and we really had a great time comparing them, with some hair raising moments! Globally his car has been developed in a cruising spirit and it surely does so in great style. The engine works great and the automatic transmission and A/C make for a nice and relaxed drive. We found my car to be quite faster, as indeed it was developed in a more sporting spirit.

Finally, I was quite happy to hear Joe Alexander say he was impressed by the quality of my conversion and that I did a great job. Given his expertise and competence, I really take it as a very valuable compliment. I hope to have him drive the car one day as his racing experience will certainly have him come with some extremely valuable advice on the car balance, suspension etc. May be next year at PUB?

We also had a great discussion with Joe and Peter Lesler (former MBCA President) on how to improve Pagodas' performance: Peter raced a Pagoda some time ago and we exchanged all kind of tricks. This was very interesting, and it was great to see how each of us approached some same issues, with sometimes different solutions, but always out of fertile imaginations!

Too bad we have to wait 50 more years to come with such a gathering again!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 21, 2013, 23:31:21
Today I attended a DIY tech session organized by the MBCA local section, hosted by the Mercedes dealer at Tyson's Corner next to Washington DC. The objective for MB owners was to do some maintenance or sort out whatever issue they had on their car with the support of competent staff. My own objective was to put my car on a lift, have a look under there and see if all was still in good order after my trip across the US last July, and to take some pictures, as I realize I never did take much pictures of my conversion, even less from underneath. So I took a few, and I'm posting some here.

In the meantime, Norbert Lamp, well known MB vintage specialist (the car whisperer...), helped me track a slight play I had in the steering system. We replaced the relay arm bushings and all got back in order. Norbert shared with me some interesting tricks on how to reduce the infamous rear camber change on the rear axle by restraining the travel of the compensating spring. He did so on the car of one of his clients who was auto-cross racing a Pagoda, with some great results. He also told me how to lengthen the life of the front axle mounts by using a longer bolt through the stop plates. I may give it some consideration next time I take them out, whenever that will be. I also had some good discussions with a few local MB enthousiasts, particularly with the owner of a concours winning yellow r107 which is absolutely stunning. That person also owns two Ferraris and is very performance oriented. We had quite a good exchange on exhaust technology and how to create back pressure at lower rev so as to have the CIS work properly with more aggressive camshafts (the nightmare of Porsche owners!).

So below are some pictures. The first one is Norbert driving my car into the workshop, with Bill Hopper in the background. Next ones are of my original leather interior:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 21, 2013, 23:35:22
Following pictures are of my engine bay from above, showing how the 5.6L sits, fitted with the early euro CIS and ignition. Also some pictures taken from underneath the car. I didn't clean these areas after my trip across the US so they are still full of dust collected on some of the most scenic dirt roads of the country. To top it all, I had my right cam cover seal that broke at one point during the trip and I drove a few days with a bad oil leak before I could replace it which ended up messing all the undercarriage. But at least, this is proof that this car is no trailer queen!

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 21, 2013, 23:53:09
Following pictures show the Getrag 265 5 speed manual transmission with the AMG bellhousing, the way it is held in place using some additional brackets fitted onto Mark Turnbull's bracket (the V8 being shorter than the original M130, the transmission sits slightly forward. These additional brackets allow me to fine tune drive line alignment).

You can also see the front part of the drive shaft, with the front BMW flange welded to the MB shaft. The weld is where the shaft diameter changes, and it was done by Dimitri so nicely that the shaft didn't need any balancing (this is my first MB where I don't have to fight drive shaft vibrations!)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 22, 2013, 00:01:14
The next picture shows how I fitted the CIS fuel pump, filter and damper. Finally, you can see where the battery sits in the trunk.
 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on September 22, 2013, 22:22:01
My welds may look pretty - at least as pretty as a mig weld can look, but the true test is if they hold up! You've now driven cross country and back with a beast of an engine putting a hefty amount of torque on that driveshaft weld. That is the true test - at least I think. I'm not an engineer!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 22, 2013, 23:09:44
Yes, the drive shaft is holding with no problem at all.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 03, 2013, 13:47:24
In fact all the parts you welded work flawlessly: the shifter mechanism, the pedal to throttle mechanism etc.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 03, 2013, 13:51:29
I finally fitted the speedo gears in the back of the transmission. The speed now works but reads 30% slower than it should.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on October 04, 2013, 14:26:47
Gael:

I enjoyed seeing you at the P50 event and getting to share our cars with Pierre Hedary, Pete Lesler, Joe Alexander, and others you mentioned.
I was surprised that you didn't mention the entertainment we provided the attendees, taking turns driving our respective M117-powered Pagodas around the grounds.  For those who weren't there, I will include a pic of my engine compartment for them.  Nothing however compares to the noises of our cars driving on the streets!  Thanks again for letting me enjoy a short drive in yours!

- - Phil
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on October 06, 2013, 03:41:53
So how can you go about making the speedo read the correct speed?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 06, 2013, 04:00:04
I've been looking for a solution regarding the speedo and I came across a speedo ratio adapter. But I will need to have the speedo cable modified as the adapter goes in series anywhere along the cable.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on October 13, 2013, 23:15:15
Phil, your car looks awesome. I would like to see it someday as we are quasi-neighbors. I heard from Gael that you did a first class job!

Gael:

I enjoyed seeing you at the P50 event and getting to share our cars with Pierre Hedary, Pete Lesler, Joe Alexander, and others you mentioned.
I was surprised that you didn't mention the entertainment we provided the attendees, taking turns driving our respective M117-powered Pagodas around the grounds.  For those who weren't there, I will include a pic of my engine compartment for them.  Nothing however compares to the noises of our cars driving on the streets!  Thanks again for letting me enjoy a short drive in yours!

- - Phil
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 05, 2014, 15:46:15
Yesterday I took my Pagoda to a dyno. Results were 230 rear wheel hp DIN at about 4750 rpm and 285 ft.lb of torque at about 3800 rpm. That's about 275 to 280 hp DIN and 345 ft.lb at the crankshaft. Regarding Hp, that's about right, as compared to the 300hp version of the M117 560 motor I am not using the tri-Y exhaust manifold system (was not clearing the Pagoda chassis rails) which have been measured to yield an additional 15hp over the euro log set-up I have. My engine is also 9:1 CR instead of 10:1 CR. However, torque seems to be slightly over the 336 ft.lb of the 300 hp version. Peak power and torque on my engine are also reached at respectively 250 and 200 rpm below the 300hp version (5000 and 4000) indicating that my camshafts may be a tad bit advanced. I should be able to get my max figures at 5000 and 4000 rpm by retarding my camshafts by 3 to 4 degrees with offset woodruff keys, gaining a few more hp in the process. In any case, that's not bad compared to the 230hp the engine started its life with in a 560SL, and considering that the long block has stayed absolutely stock. My target when I started the build was 275 hp, so I'm good, and there there is room for a bit of improvement acting on the camshafts timing.

We also measured maximum speed on the dyno: 150 mph in 4th gear at 6000 rpm and 180 mph in 5th gear. However, in real life it may be different, taking the car's aerodynamics and weight into consideration. I went on an online calculator using an estimated 17.3 square feet as a frontal area (with hard top) and 0.42 cd. Result was still over 170 mph. I guess the car would be able to reach a good 160 to 165 mph on a long straight, flat, with no wind.

We also weighed the car with a fancy system of four scales, one under each wheel, communicating with a computer. Result was 1340 kg with a full tank, without hard top, but with soft top, spare wheel, jack, tools etc., corresponding to the definition of curb weight. 53% on the front, 47% on the rear. This is 20 kg lighter than the factory figure for a 280SL. Not bad, considering that I have power steering and a 5 speed transmission. Factory figure is with no options. So I would say my car is 30 to 35 kg lighter than a stock 280SL with comparable equipment, with better weight distribution compared to the stock 56/44.

In any case, this is giving me an estimated ratio of 209 hp per ton. Online calculators says the car should be able to run 0 to 60 mph in 4.81s. This is theoretical as I doubt my 205mm wide tires would provide enough grip for that.

I spent a bit of time on the net to see how my car would compare with some other cars of the era. Below are a few:

1962 Mercedes 300 SL gullwing: 215 bhp, 1329 kg, 162bhp/ton, 160 mph

1973 Porsche Carrera 2.7 RS: 207 bhp, 1075 kg, 192 bhp/ton, 149 mph

1962 Ferrari 250 GTO: 296 bhp, 950 kg, 311 bhp/ton, 158 mph

1969 Ferrari 265 Daytona: 347 bhp, 1200 kg, 289 bhp/ton, 170 mph

1967 Iso Grifo 300GL: 295 bhp, 1450 kg, 204 bhp/ton, 143 mph

1971 Jaguar E Type V12: 272 bhp, 1500 kg, 181 bhp/ton, 142 mph

1972 Maserati Ghibli SS: 330 bhp, 1350 kg, 244 bhp/ton 160 mph

1967 Lamborghini Miura P400: 350 bhp, 1293 kg, 271 bhp/ton, 172mph

1969 Lamborghini Espada SII: 350 bhp, 1700 kg, 206 bhp/ton, 155mph

Note that power figures for these supercars of the 60s and 70s were often optimistic for marketing purposes. Putting them on a dyno today may yield very different figures, especially for the ones that are difficult to tune due to many carburetors, dual ignition distributors, valve clearance etc. In comparison, adjustments on my car are very simple and very stable, so there is no power loss in between two services.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on February 05, 2014, 16:08:48
Gael:
As I told you in Williamsburg, I got accurate speedometer and odometer readings by using a motor driven adapter taking cable input and generating a cable output proportional to the adjustment setting on the box.  At least as accurate as original factory drive.

Power ratings are very promising, Gael.  I am having some dyno testing on my 5.6 engine performed and will report them here when available.  I doubt they will match or exceed yours since my camshafts are stock.  I expect some jump over stock because of low restriction exhaust and custom tuned Link fuel/ignition system.

- - Phil
I've been looking for a solution regarding the speedo and I came across a speedo ratio adapter. But I will need to have the speedo cable modified as the adapter goes in series anywhere along the cable.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on February 05, 2014, 22:36:34
Yesterday I took my Pagoda to a dyno. Results were 230 rear wheel hp DIN at about 4750 rpm and 285 ft.lb of torque at about 3800 rpm. That's about 275 to 280 hp DIN and 345 ft.lb at the crankshaft. Regarding Hp, that's about right, as compared to the 300hp version of the M117 560 motor I am not using the tri-Y exhaust manifold system (was not clearing the Pagoda chassis rails) which have been measured to yield an additional 15hp over the euro log set-up I have. My engine is also 9:1 CR instead of 10:1 CR. However, torque seems to be slightly over the 336 ft.lb of the 300 hp version. Peak power and torque on my engine are also reached at respectively 250 and 200 rpm below the 300hp version (5000 and 4000) indicating that my camshafts may be a tad bit advanced. I should be able to get my max figures at 5000 and 4000 rpm by retarding my camshafts by 3 to 4 degrees with offset woodruff keys, gaining a few more hp in the process. In any case, that's not bad compared to the 230hp the engine started its life with in a 560SL, and considering that the long block has stayed absolutely stock.

We also measured maximum speed on the dyno: 150 mph in 4th gear at 6000 rpm and 180 mph in 5th gear. However, in real life it may be different, taking the car's aerodynamics and weight into consideration. I went on an online calculator using an estimated 17.3 square feet as a frontal area (with hard top) and 0.42 cd. Result was still over 170 mph. I guess the car would be able to reach a good 160 to 165 mph on a long straight, flat, with no wind.

We also weighed the car with a fancy system of four scales, one under each wheel, communicating with a computer. Result was 1340 kg with a full tank, without hard top, but with soft top, spare wheel, jack, tools etc., corresponding to the definition of curb weight. 53% on the front, 47% on the rear. This is 20 kg lighter than the factory figure for a 280SL. Not bad, considering that I have power steering and a 5 speed transmission. Factory figure is with no options.

In any case, this is giving me an estimated ratio of 209 hp per ton. Online calculators says the car should be able to run 0 to 60 mph in 4.81s. This is theoretical as I doubt my 205mm wide tires would provide enough grip for that.

I spent a bit of time on the net to see how my car would compare with some other cars of the era. Below are a few:

1962 Mercedes 300 SL gullwing: 215 bhp, 1329 kg, 162bhp/ton, 160 mph

1973 Porsche Carrera 2.7 RS: 207 bhp, 1075 kg, 192 bhp/ton, 149 mph

1962 Ferrari 250 GTO: 296 bhp, 950 kg, 311 bhp/ton, 158 mph

1969 Ferrari 265 Daytona: 347 bhp, 1200 kg, 289 bhp/ton, 170 mph

1967 Iso Grifo 300GL: 295 bhp, 1450 kg, 204 bhp/ton, 143 mph

1971 Jaguar E Type V12: 272 bhp, 1500 kg, 181 bhp/ton, 142 mph

1972 Maserati Ghibli SS: 330 bhp, 1350 kg, 244 bhp/ton 160 mph

1967 Lamborghini Miura P400: 350 bhp, 1293 kg, 271 bhp/ton, 172mph

1969 Lamborghini Espada SII: 350 bhp, 1700 kg, 206 bhp/ton, 155mph

Note that power figures for these supercars of the 60s and 70s were often optimistic for marketing purposes. Putting them on a dyno today may yield very different figures, especially for the ones that are difficult to tune due to many carburetors, dual ignition distributors, valve clearance etc. In comparison, adjustments on my car are very simple and very stable, so there is no power loss in between two services.


That's a great result but please don't attempt to take a pagoda up to 165mph!!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on February 05, 2014, 22:47:41
Gael:
Certainly, be very careful till you get an accurate speedometer in your Pagoda!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 05, 2014, 23:16:02
That's a great result but please don't attempt to take a pagoda up to 165mph!!

Well, I may try it one day, just to see what the car is really capable of, if I find a way of doing it legally. I hear some highways in Montana do not have a speed limit. I also hear of events on old airport strips where people go for top speed, I wonder if there is such a thing on the East coast. I fitted a ratio adapter and my speedo is now reading correctly enough: 96mph on the dyno when speedo shows 100 mph. Tacho is also now working correctly.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on February 05, 2014, 23:22:49
How about a racetrack? Do they have speed limits? Limerock in CT perhaps?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on February 05, 2014, 23:44:23
I fitted a ratio adapter and my speedo is now reading correctly enough: 96mph on the dyno when speedo shows 100 mph. Tacho is also now working correctly.
Gael:
Glad to hear that you have got speedo working adequately. 
The best place I know of for speed runs is Mid Ohio.  I think they have a 2 mile straightaway.
There's also a place up here that friends have driven at speeds above 160.
Regards
 - - Phil
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Garry on February 06, 2014, 01:13:05
They have just removed the speed limit on a bit of road here in Australia.  Its in the dead centre of the country from Alice Springs for 200km north toward Darwin, mainly straight.  The speedsters have been getting on it at 250kph+ just to try it out.  Only one problem, it is only two lanes and there are Road Trains also on the road that are three or four semi trailers long with 80 tons on board.  Its a trial.  First time some one kills themselves I suspect the trial will be called off.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-01/speed-limits-shelved-for-nt-highway-sports-cars/5232388
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 06, 2014, 01:22:44
Problem is that this 200km stretch of road is going to act as a magnet for all speed enthousiasts from all over Australia. It won't be a very representative trial. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: garymand on February 06, 2014, 20:09:24
I searched but copuldn't find if you tried using a 560 radiator?  what have you ended with for the radiator and fan?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on February 06, 2014, 20:57:52
I searched but copuldn't find if you tried using a 560 radiator?  what have you ended with for the radiator and fan?
  On mine, a 6.9 radiator.
- - Phil
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 06, 2014, 22:27:05
I used a 450SLC 5.0 radiator, with a 9 blades plastic fan propeller.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on February 08, 2014, 10:02:59
That piece of road that Garrynrefers to is an awful long way from anywhere so only the most determined  will be making a special journeyntongetnto it. It's also a bloody dangerous road with not only road trains wandering about but sleepy tourists trudging along at low speed and cattle and 'roos to watch out for. There's no way I'd be doing any great speeds there!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 28, 2014, 18:20:55
So I finally managed to put together a pair of euro headlights and fitted them this morning. I really like the way the car looks now. Here are some pictures:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on February 28, 2014, 18:31:03
Very nice!  "All the better to see <you> with"

- - Phil
So I finally managed to put together a pair of euro headlights and fitted them this morning. I really like the way the car looks now. Here are some pictures:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 16, 2014, 13:45:26
Last week Dimitri drove from Maine to DC and we then proceeded to Florida in my Pagoda to attend the Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance. It took us 10 hours of driving to reach there and we managed to dodge snow and salt which was great given the crazy weather we've had lately. The Amelia Island is a wonderful event, we met several group members there and we saw some very nice Pagodas displayed on the Saturday (see my other post in the "events" section).

The Pagoda drove very nicely, and the 2500 rpm at 80 mph on the highway make the car a very nice autobahn cruiser. After the Amelia event, we drove down to Timevalve in Melbourne as the exhaust they sent me needed some work to fit properly. They did a superb job and Michael is a very nice chap, very pleasant to deal with. My exhaust now fits exactly as it should and I'm very happy with the result. I really recommend Timevalve!

We then passed by Pierre Hedary's shop in Titusville and we all had dinner together. He's got a nice shop and he is a true and committed MB enthousiast, as well as a Pagoda owner. He drove my car and he liked it very much. "An engineering masterpiece" were his comments. Quite emphatic, but nice to hear in any case! Thank you Pierre! He noted that my steering box was in need of a slight adjustment, which I did while servicing the car once back home.

On the way back to DC, we passed by "Bud's Benz" in Atlanta as we were in search of some parts and to see their shop. David, the owner, was very welcoming and took us for a tour of the shop. I was impressed by the size of the operation, the great number of very nice cars they are working on and by the huge reserve of parts they have. David called his team out to have a look under the hood of my Pagoda once he discovered what was there. David and one mechanic drove the car and they liked it.

The trip back to DC was uneventful, though we had a lot of wind on the road. The car worked flawlessly. Dimitri was a bit worried to go on such a long trip with no more than the stock tool kit. We did not have to use it once. I serviced the car yesterday which consisted in changing the engine oil, greasing lubricating points on the front and rear axles, adjust the alternator belt tension, adjust the steering box, and wash the car. It was all done in part of the afternoon. What an easy car to live with! Below are some pictures taken on the way:
Title: temp1
Post by: dseretakis on March 16, 2014, 14:44:38
You failed to post this amazing picture on the beach!:

Title: temp2
Post by: GGR on March 16, 2014, 14:52:47
I was leaving that honor to the author!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 18, 2014, 22:07:38
One more picture, taken on the Parking of the Gooding auction:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Garry on March 19, 2014, 03:44:57
Gael,

Jags and Pagodas must go together well, photo from inside my shed a year or so ago!

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 19, 2014, 09:53:40
Wow! Both in a close shade of blue! Nice cars to have in one's garage! So, how do they compare in terms of driving experience? I never drove an E-type but I imagine the car must have quite a strong personality.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Garry on March 19, 2014, 10:48:08
I purchased it in Georgia, USA and shipped it to Joe’s (JA17) in Ohio for PUB then Tom Collet and I drove it to LA where Tom converted it to RHD and I shipped it home, used it for about 12 months then sold it.  Did not like it as much as I had hoped, not a good highway cruiser like the Pagoda, in fact I would class it as fairly course to drive but it was an interesting experience.

I replaced it in the garage with a VW Kombi, now that is great fun and I have already driven it around Australia (12,000km) last year.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 19, 2014, 11:20:59
Depending on manufacturing year, your car must have had all the US emissions stuff on it, so its performance may not have been up to its original design. I read that Jaguar built the E-Type V12 to compensate for the loss of performance of the XK engine on the US market due to emissions regulations. What do you mean by "fairly course to drive"? I looked at the definitions of "course" and couldn't find any that would make sense in that context (as you can see, the use of a foreign language is not always as easy as it may seem ;))

I remember being a passenger in a Combi when I was a kid, and later as a teenager occasionally while crossing Europe hitch-hiking. The engine being in the back, I remember how silent the drive is while sitting in the front. It must be a real pleasure to tour in a Combi. I developed my Pagoda for long travels and crossed the US last summer using a combination of motels, camping places and friend's places for overnight stops. Traveling in a combi must be a completely different experience and I'm very tempted. My wife wants one, and I guess it won't take much to convince me (as long as I can fit a 2L engine and a five speed, I guess I will be happy!).
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: floatinghat on July 17, 2014, 23:31:37
Way cool topic, love the 5.6 conversion even if not factory and nicely done.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 18, 2014, 00:26:39
Thanks.

Since my last post I did quite some work on the car. Since my car had a tendency to get a bit too hot to my taste in slow traffic on very hot days, I replaced the radiator with a bigger one freshly re-cored.  I also fitted a fan shroud. There was a huge improvement and the needle now stays within a civilized range in traffic even on very hot days.

I also fitted some 15x7 steel wheels, which were originally found on W126s on the German market. I fitted some 215/60-15 tires and there was a huge improvement in handling. The car in now on rails and the limit in corners has been pushed back quite a bit. I also got some 15' hubcaps from Finland. I still need to paint them the color of the car.

Finally, the bigger wheels allowed for bigger brakes. I went with 300 mm vented discs in the front. Problem was not about braking power but durability. I was concerned the previous brakes would not hold on a track day or spirited driving on a mountain road. I lost my brakes a few times with my former 6.3. The Pagoda is much lighter, but still, I thought I would beef the brakes up to the level of the rest of the car. The new brakes can dissipate heat much better.

Saturday will be my first track day with the Pagoda. I hope it will be fun and that I won't break anything!     
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 22, 2014, 16:34:59
So last Saturday was my first track day with the Pagoda. The event was organized by the MBCA Virginia section (thanks Don) and took place at the NCCAR track which is very nice. When I registered for the event the green beginners' group with instructors was already fully booked but having participated to some track events while I was still leaving in Europe I was upgraded to the yellow group which is right after the green one. I was the only "vintage" car participating and other cars could be roughly separated into two groups: one were cars that had been set up for track use only. They were mostly sports cars of the eighties and nineties that had been gutted, upgraded engine and suspension and equipped with roll bars and wide slick tires. The other group were normal recent sports road cars like Porsches Carrera 4, Mercedes AMG v12 (670 hp!) etc.

The day was really fun and we started in the morning with 15mn sessions for each group and we were lapping clockwise. In the afternoon, I guess because drivers skills among yellow, blue and white group members were close enough, they had us lap on the track all together alternatively with the green beginners' group in 30mn sessions. By then we were lapping counter clockwise.

Track is very hard on cars and really reveals their weaknesses and points to what needs to be improved. I had noticed that with other cars I've owned. One may feel the car is all up to snuff for road use, but a track day will still reveal a lot. There was no exception with the Pagoda, though it came out way better than I was expecting if compared with former experiences I had with other cars.

The good:

I did not break anything and the car did not miss a beat. I've been driving it to the limit (mines and the ones of the car) session after session all day long and the car was still performing in the same way at the end of the last session as it was at the beginning of the first one. This makes me really happy. It means the car is reliable and durable even over prolonged harsh use. It means that not only the engine can take abuse all day long, but the clutch, the transmission and the rear end are up to par.

The car is well balanced. At the beginning my tire pressure revealed to be a bit too high which had the car drifting more than expected. However, this revealed quite clearly the good balance of the car as it was very easy to shift from slight oversteer to slight understeer just by modulating the position of the gas pedal while in any of the long curves.

The brakes are excellent! I am really happy with the upgrade. In the afternoon, while lapping counterclockwise, I had to slam the brakes at the end of the long straight before the hairpin, bringing the car from 115mph to a quasi-stop lap after lap. This was extremely hard on the brakes and they never missed, faded or got spongy in any way.

The car is performing well. It was obviously slower in the curves than any of the cars that were specifically set up for track use, but I could keep up with some of the normal modern sports road cars, notably a Nissan 350Z and a Porsche 996 Carrera 4 which both have a slightly more advantageous power to weight ratio than my Pagoda. In the straight acceleration the car was really doing well and I have distanced many cars including much lighter ones. I could keep up with an early Porsche 928 that has been gutted for track use, and the owner told me his engine was estimated to develop 330hp out of some dyno runs he put his car through.

What could be improved:

The car could do with less body roll. Though I have much stiffer springs in the front, the car is still taking quite some angle in the curves. This is now a bit more pronounced since I have the 215 tires because of the added grip. I had kept the stock sway bar up to now assuming the stiffer front springs would be enough to keep body roll in check. But I now realize I should fit a bigger one which should be easy enough.

The car could also do with stiffer shock absorbers on the track. I need to look for some shocks that can be adjusted without having to take them out in the process so that I can adjust them easily to the desired stiffness in a few seconds before I enter the track, and turn them back to road use adjustment while leaving the track.

As mentioned before the car is very well balanced and pretty predictable. The only exception is when entering a curve while still on the brakes: twice I was over optimistic with my speed and couldn’t slow down enough which had me enter the curve while still on the brakes. The sanction was immediate as the car threw itself sideways quite brutally. I could control it easily both times by swiftly steering into the skid. After that I was cautious to keep the car in a straight line until I could release the brakes, even if this was throwing me out of the ideal trajectory. I guess this is due to the swing axle. It should be less pronounced, more progressive and even easier to control once I fit stiffer sway bar and shocks as mass transfer will be less brutal.

People were very friendly. At the beginning they were telling me how nice it was to see a Pagoda on a track day as they were not used to see such cars in those events. Later during the day the car still drew a lot of attention, but this time due to its unexpected performance. Many came to ask and see what was under the hood. In particular during the second half of the day when all the groups were joined together, two of the fastest guys of the white group (instructors) which were driving BMWs set up for track use came to me after a session with an expression of disbelief on their faces. I had seen them catching up with me in the curvy section but I had estimated I could let them pass in the smaller straight after the long one. They were racing with each other and the one in the lead had thought he would pass me in the long straight. So he was quite surprised to see me pulling away from both of them. They were great guys and told me how much they liked the car. One of them told me that my tire pressure was too high judging by the way the car was skidding. I lowered the pressure as per his recommendations and the car indeed got a much better grip for the rest of the sessions.

The lady driving the 996 Carrera 4 also came to see what was under the hood as she was surprised to see a Pagoda keeping up with her. She really liked the car, also convened I had a bit too much body roll and encouraged me to participate to some rallycross as she said it was great to set up car suspensions.

Someone was taking pictures and I’m told they will be posted on the MBCA Virginia section website. I will try to post some of them here when they show up there.

All in all it was a great day and I came out of it very happy. It confirms the car can do what I built it for, in the spirit of the GTs of the 60s and 70s where one could use his/her GT on a track or rallye during the week end, go to work with it on the Monday and embark on a transcontinental journey during holydays. That’s exactly what my Pagoda can do. It took me to Yellowstone and back last summer, took me on the track last week end, and I did not have to turn a wrench in any of both occasions. Mind you, I don’t even have to change the tire pressure for track use as the one that works best is also the one I use on the road.

I will keep on improving the car by small steps. Next one is a bigger sway bar.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: garymand on July 22, 2014, 23:24:37
I'm amazed you arfe running only 215's.  Don't tell me they are 14" rims!  I found a 300sel sway bar at about 24mm and I run 16" 245 rubber.  What breaks did you go with?  Did you do anything with the back suspension?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 22, 2014, 23:36:46
I'm running 15 x 7 rims and 215/60-15 tires. I've tried some 225/60-15 tires and clearance is not enough to my taste (in fact they're touching the inner fenders when the wheels are jacked up. Do you have pictures of your car with the 245s? Here is a picture of mine last Saturday: http://taftstallingsphotography.zenfolio.com/mercedes/h1b2aab00#h31441595

I went with 300mm vented discs in the front. The back suspension springs are stock, with the thinnest shims. I also have stiffer shocks.

I will try to source a 24mm sway bar but they don't seem to be that easy to find. I may go with the 23 mm one from the w108 4.5.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: garymand on July 22, 2014, 23:51:24
I'll take a few pics.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 23, 2014, 21:27:20
Here is a picture of the car on the track. I will post more once I get them:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: DaveB on July 23, 2014, 22:18:48
What a wonderfully conceived and executed car! And amazing fuel economy too, though not on track day though I guess.
Also an exceptional photo - best on the site in my opinion.
It's reassuring to know the aerial can take some significant g-forces but you might gain a tenth by retracting it (of course that may reduce your listening pleasure :)).
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: DaveB on July 23, 2014, 22:33:37
You haven't said much about how the transmission shifts and performs - as good as everything else?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 23, 2014, 23:07:37
Thanks! I'm indeed enjoying the car a lot, and part of the pleasure comes from knowing I did it with my own hands.

While on the track I was constantly telling myself I should pull the aerial down and then I kept on forgetting while waiting in between two sessions!

MPG is great, though it has gone down a bit since I played with the timing of the camshafts which also required enriching a bit for the set-up to work at its best. I now have more torque which comes a bit earlier with a very flat curve overall. The engine is now really great, the car takes off no matter the rpm, gear or speed I'm at, as soon as I step on the gas. I'm still returning 22 to 25 mpg at 80mph in normal highway conditions. The car is quite long legged with a 2.82 rear end ratio and .81 overdrive fifth gear. That puts me at 2500 rpm in 5th at 80mph.

The transmission is one of the best components of the build. It's a Getrag 265 as found on earlier BMWs which are really nice transmissions. It was beefed up to take the engine's additional torque. Shifting is firm and precise, and everybody who drove the car really liked it. I didn't note any problem on the track, which is telling me all the synchros and bearings are in good nick.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: garymand on July 23, 2014, 23:54:22
(http://) I'm failing to figure out how to attazch a picture!! ???  I tried copy and paste and the picture icon above but the :'(
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 23, 2014, 23:59:29
You need to hit "Additional Options" below the window and then hit "Browse" on the "Attach" line. You then select the picture you want tot attach in your computer.

Alternatively you can hit the "attach image" icon (second from the right on the lower line above the window) and then paste a link the image is at on the web.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on July 24, 2014, 07:05:51
GGR, I'm not often impressed but I am here. That is one awesome car and if I didn't have to make a living I would love to do the same.
I tip my hat to you, Sir!
(Incidentally, the continued application of brakes whilst entering a turn is called "trail braking").
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 24, 2014, 12:30:13
Thank you Stick! BTW I often tell my wife I would be into older airplanes rather than into older cars if I had more money. Strangely, that's about the only times she seems happy that I don't have more money! While I was still living in Paris I was often visiting La Ferte Alais and its very interesting older aircrafts collection. One could also see some of them being rebuilt and talk to the guys, it was very nice (I'm sure it still is!). Their yearly airshow is really great, part of it thanks to the commentator Bernard Chabbert who is a true enthusiast. I encourage you to go to that airshow if you have a chance. 

I was impressed when you shared with us your involvement into older airplanes, so you see, I also tip my hat to you, Sir!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: garymand on July 24, 2014, 20:34:56
Thanks GGR, here is a pic from the back and front. These are 225/50 16.  16X7 rims front and back.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 24, 2014, 23:52:19
Thanks for posting the pictures. They don't look that much wider than the 215. What size are they exactly? How wide are your rims?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: 450sl on July 25, 2014, 15:30:24
Great Job, well Done  !!

What do you mean by beefing up the getrag ? did you modify the transmission itself?

Mark
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 25, 2014, 16:50:52
Thanks!

This transmission was part of a set up I got together with the bell-housing. It was developed back in the day for the 500 motor M117 by AMG. Part of it was to replace the transmission bearings with stronger ones to deal with the additional torque. I did not open this transmission as it was working well, so I do not know about all the details. I did a similar exercise with a different transmission that I modified for my 5.0L W111 Coupe. I replaced ball bearings by roller bearings and added a keyway for the pinion of 5th.   
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: pmorgan on August 04, 2014, 10:33:10
Yesterday I took my Pagoda to a dyno. Results were 230 rear wheel hp DIN at about 4750 rpm and 285 ft.lb of torque at about 3800 rpm.
Gael:
I told you I would post my dyno results here for my 280SL/5.6 after testing was done.  That was completed in mid-June '14 and max rear wheel HP was 180 and max torque was 250 ft-lb.  My drivetrain is different from yours with stock CR and camshafts in engine, automatic transmission, and full rear axle from 300SEL/6.3 car.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 07, 2014, 22:31:23
Here are a few more pictures taken during the track day. The second picture is on the long straight, right before or after shifting from 3rd to 4th (I seem to have the hand on the shifter), speed must be around 100 mph as this is about the speed up to which 3rd takes the car:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on August 08, 2014, 15:53:33
Those are great shots!  100mph in third, wow! I wonder what the top speed could be. Please don't find out!!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 08, 2014, 16:35:57
Thanks!

Well, I surely would like to know the max speed too! It reached 180mph on the dyno in 5th. However this is not real life. I made some calculations taking into account a number of parameters and I think the car should be able to reach a good 160mph. I won't know for sure until I try it for real. I need to find a way to do it as safely as possible, without braking the law, and without my wife knowing!  

Below is a table calculating all speeds and rpm depending on rear end and trans gear ratios and tire size:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on August 08, 2014, 17:44:05
And without killing yourself!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Peter van Es on August 10, 2014, 07:33:16
Cool shots and great car!  :)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on August 10, 2014, 08:08:13
Me likely lots!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 10, 2014, 10:24:44
Thanks!

100mph in third, wow!

In fact, by looking at the table, max speed in third is more like 110. I got confused with my Coupe which has a 3.27 rear end with a max speed of 100mph in third @ around 6500rpm. It also has a 0.87:1 5th gear instead of 0.81:1. That engine is a 5.0L with AMG camshafts and EFI. Being shorter stroke it is very rev. happy.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on November 16, 2014, 16:49:25
It's getting cold around here so I thought I would go and check the coolant protection on the Pagoda with that bubble thing they sell at Autozone. The coolant needs to be at operating temperature so I went for a drive. I hadn't really driven the car in a while, apart for going at Tom's gathering at the beginning of the month, but that was all city traffic.

This time I took the car on the open road, and for some reason, everybody was driving slowly. While I was loosing patience, I looked around and the whole traffic was moving slower than usual, as if in some kind of slow motion movie. But a quick look at the speedo had me realize I was the one moving fast!

It had me think about the qualities of this car: all components - engine, brakes, suspension etc. are somehow oversized so their limits are way beyond what they used to be. And because they all work together homogenously in an effortless manner, one does not really realize at what speed the car is moving. That realization made me happy for the day, though I have to watch out for cameras!

The other thing I realized is that I didn't turn wrenches on that car since quite a while. It does not need it. There are a few things I'm thinking of doing, but these would be improvements, not issues in need of being addressed. Maintenance is also quite simplified compared to an original Pagoda: No more ignition breaker points and valve adjustment to deal with, and oil change interval is also now quite longer. All this makes me quite happy, but it's also kind of boring!

So I guess I will need to look into these little improvements I want to make so as not to loose interest: bigger sway bar (I got one from a W108 4.5 already, I now need to install it), Koni adjustable shocks (I already scored a pair of rear ones on eBay), I also want to re-fit the thick metal plate under the transmission. I currently have the valance made by Mark Turnbull for the Getrag, but I think the original plate plays a role in the car's rigidity. Not that I feel there is anything wrong for now, but I thought putting the thicker plate back would help save the shell from doing all the work. I need to find a way to get the Getrag to attach to it, may be by modifying Mark's bracket. So the trans would still be held by the mounts on both sides with the bracket, and then the modified bracket itself would be bolted onto the plate. I'll see.     

Oh, and the coolant is fine up to -10 Fahrenheit, so I should be good for the winter.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on November 29, 2014, 17:38:26
The weather has been nice so I went to Katie's Cars and Coffee in Great Falls with the Pagoda this morning. Turn out was nice despite the cold and there were a number of interesting cars. Group Member Pagoden was there too with his nice white Pagoda and the top off. Quite courageous given the cold!

While there, and before heading back, I decided to fiddle with the throttle actuation. The system is such that the throttle does not open in a linear manner relative to pedal travel: the first part of the pedal travel opens the throttle very slowly, and then opening is much faster. This is to keep better control in town, and it is giving my car a bit of a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde personality: press gently on the pedal, and the car behaves very smoothly; press more and hell starts breaking loose!  However, I felt Dr Jekyll had too much of the pedal travel, especially compared to my Coupe which is really reacting immediately. So I adjusted the rods in such a manner that I get on the "fast opening mode" much quicker. This had a great effect as now throttle response is much crispier. I now have a much rejuvenated and dynamic Dr. Jekyll, and it turns into Mr Hyde also much faster! Before, I really had to press on the gas pedal to get the car moving. Now it is zipping as soon as I press on it, and the bulk of the power is now felt from the middle of the pedal travel rather than towards the end of it. I like it! I think I found the right balance between smooth control and throttle response, as going further would really have the car jump as soon as the pedal is pressed on. It's nice to have such an adjustment, it allows to change the balance between the car's two sides of its personality very easily!   

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 05, 2015, 20:02:41
I was contacted recently by Gary Anderson, Editor-in-Chief of "The Star" which is the Official Magazine of the Mercedes-Benz Club of America (MBCA):  http://www.mbca.org/star/january-february-2015

He thought my two trips across the US, one with my Coupe, and the other one with my Pagoda, could make for a nice article. So I sent him a draft which he nicely edited and the article was published in the January-February issue of the Magazine, with pictures from both my trips. I think MBCA members are currently getting their copy in their mailbox. They can also read the Magazine online by following the link I posted above. For the others, attached below is a draft copy of the article.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: jeblack123 on January 07, 2015, 04:26:28
Very well done, Gael!

James
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Garry on January 07, 2015, 04:52:26
Nice article Gael. I enjoyed it.

Reminded me of several trips I have done across USA in both a Pagoda (2009) and an E Type Roadster in 2011 to attend PUB

Garry
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 07, 2015, 08:00:48
Thanks!

Garry, do you have pictures of both your trips? Where did you drive the Pagoda from and to?

 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Garry on January 07, 2015, 08:51:58
Bit off subject but:
On both occasions I was returning from Joe Alexanders (PUB) in Blacklick OH and in the Pagoda case another CA member (the owner) and I drove it back to just north of San Francisco before flying home.  In the Jag case it was my own E Type that I had purchased in Georgia in LHD and then used at PUB and then Tom Collit and I drove it back to LA where Tom did a LH to RH conversion on it for me before I shipped it home.

I only have a few photos with me at the moment of the Jag

On both occasions I had a great time and enjoyed the ride.

Garry
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 07, 2015, 11:06:39
Doing the same kind of trip in a Pagoda and then in an E type must have given you a very good occasion to compare both cars. If not done already, you should make a write up on this experience as both cars were competitors back in the day. This could be a good article for Pagoda World, with pictures and anecdotes on both your trips.

I have added more pictures of my trips in this thread: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21718.0 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 10, 2015, 20:06:06
Early this morning I drove the Pagoda in the cold across a countryside covered in snow up to the inspection center. The car failed the inspection because CO at idle was right above the threshold. I leaned the mixture right around the corner and went straight back in. Passed with flying colors with .25 CO at idle. I didn't see the faces of the guys as owners are not allowed in the workshop, but they must have been like Huh?! ??? 

inspection time is the time for me to remember that January 1st of 2011 when I became the proud owner of this Pagoda at a local auction. I drove it home in the cold and across a countryside covered in snow, just like this morning!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on January 11, 2015, 22:32:14
I find it amazing that some states still torture the owners of such old cars with emissions testing. These cars constitute a minuscule fraction of cars on the road today. On top of that, they are driven much less frequently.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 11, 2015, 22:40:18
I think they go by what the rules were when the car was manufactured. I don't have to pass emissions on my '62 Coupe of my wife's '67 fintail. My Pagoda is a '71. Had it been older it would also have been exempt.

Dimitri, do you remember when we drove back the Pagoda from the local auctions place? It was freezing cold!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: RonB on January 12, 2015, 03:44:32
Sway Bar - what diameter is the sway bar from the W108 4.5?

Does it bolt right up as replacement for the regular w113 bar?

Great job - nice.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: dseretakis on January 12, 2015, 05:15:43

Dimitri, do you remember when we drove back the Pagoda from the local auctions place? It was freezing cold!

I remember that day. You were so excited! Like a little boy on Christmas!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 12, 2015, 10:05:53
You were so excited! Like a little boy on Christmas!

Indeed! The car even had a Christmas bow attached to the grill!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 12, 2015, 10:12:56
Sway Bar - what diameter is the sway bar from the W108 4.5?

Does it bolt right up as replacement for the regular w113 bar?

Great job - nice.

Thanks!

If I remember well the diameter of the W108 4.5 sway bar is 23mm. The biggest one is the W109 3.5 one which I believe is 24mm. But it is a bit harder to find.

I did not install it yet but other on this forum did and they had to grind a bit of the lips used for the spot welds at the bottom of the chassis rails for clearance. This is because the shape is not exactly the same as the Pagoda sway bars. Apart from that I think it's a straight fit.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 26, 2015, 12:15:45
Since I fitted the bigger brakes I went with 15" wheels to clear the calipers. I sourced some 15" hubcaps in Finland through an M-100 Enthusiast which I stripped from their paint as they had been all covered in blue, including the areas that are supposed to stay shiny. But I was still to have them painted the same color as the car. So yesterday I took the hubcaps to a renown body shop in the area. Working there was a gentleman who took great interest in the Pagoda and the conversion I did. It turns out this gentleman is a MB fan and is also an instructor at the Summit Point race track near Winchester in Virginia. So he is quite knowledgeable about setting up cars. I asked him if he would test drive the Pagoda and come with recommendations to help me improve the chassis settings. So we went for a drive and I was quite happy with his comments.

The good: The car is extremely well balanced. He told me people strive to get such a nice balance so I should really think twice before fitting a stiffer sway bar in the front as this may induce more under-steer and alter the nice balance of the car. He also told me the front geometry is set up quite nicely as the car is engaging very nicely and easily into corners. He liked the brakes a lot, telling me they were powerful and progressive, with a very nice bite. Finally, he told me my 215/60-15 tires had the right profile to do what the car is supposed to do. Oh, and he also liked the buckets of torque available anytime, no matter the rpm. He really liked the car a lot!

The not so good: The shocks are clearly inadequate. He was happy to hear I had ordered adjustable Konis. He told me I may be able to sort out the body roll issue to some extent through adjusting the new shocks when I fit them. He recommended to go one change at a time to keep track of improvements. First the shocks, and then see if a stiffer sway bar is still needed. He was also happy to hear that polyurethane bushings were on order for the front axle and sway bar, as this would have the car even more precise than it is now.

So, next thing on the to do list is to replace the shocks and front axle/sway bar bushings when I receive them, and fiddle with the shock adjustments until I'm happy. I have ordered poly bushings for 20 and 23 mm sway bars so that I can swap the two sway bars I have and compare the results.  Hopefully all this will be done by the MBCA event at Summit Point where I will have this helpful gentleman drive the car again, on the track this time, to help me finalize the chassis settings. Another nice day in perspective!


   
 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on March 26, 2015, 17:57:37
Sounds like great fun. he's right to caution you that you should only make one change at a time so you can monitor the effects accurately.
I once drove my race car around the streets here in west London (when nobody was looking); it was the most uncomfortable ride! The compromise between track handling and street handling is a delicate one.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 26, 2015, 20:01:42
I once drove my race car around the streets here in west London (when nobody was looking); it was the most uncomfortable ride! The compromise between track handling and street handling is a delicate one.

Yes. Though I had a lot of fun during the track day, one of the take aways of that day is that the car is definitely a road car, not a track car. A lot could be done to it to improve its performance on the track, but this would make it unpractical and uncomfortable on the road. The chassis is still set up for road use, with occasional fun on a track, not the contrary. As is, the suspension is much firmer than original, but still acceptable for a GT oriented road car. It is a compromise still biased towards road use. I am now proceeding by little steps, the objective being more to improve the car's homogeneity rather than overall performance.

Regarding polyurethane bushings: I initially had rubber bushing all round. But engine torque was clearly over powering the trailing arms bushings with a result of the rear end shifting left and right under strong acceleration. This was sorted with the use of polyurethane bushings with no ill effect on comfort. I think I may feel more of a difference when I replace the bushings in front of the front axle (connection with the front leafs), but I have them on the Coupe already and it is still very acceptable.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 09, 2015, 22:24:21
The other day I got my hubcaps for 15" wheels back from the paint shop. The result is very nice. I will post pictures once I've cleaned the car. I was not sure how these would look on the Pagoda, I was concerned they would look too big. But they look just fine. If one is not a Pagoda specialist (s)he won't notice the difference.

I have fitted back the plate under the trans. Till now I had the bracket made by Mark Turnbull to fit the Getrag. But having a stiffer suspension, I felt like fitting back the original plate for more rigidity. I have come with a different system to hold the transmission. I now can tell the difference: before the hardtop was doing all kind of noises when driving on degraded surfaces. Not anymore. This is on a low mileage Texas rust free car, so body stiffness is as close as original as it can be and creaking was not due to rigidity being compromised by rust and metal fatigue. I am now convinced that this plate is there for a reason.

I also fitted the polyurethane bushings for the front axle leafs and sway bar. The car is quite tighter and more precise on the road, and comfort is not that altered. I'm very happy with the result. I kept the original sway bar for now so as not to alter the car's nice balance, and the polyurethane bushings have taken care of some of the leaning in the corners.

I still did not receive the adjustable Konis as the front pair is on back order. They will be the last touch to the chassis set-up.

 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Garry on May 09, 2015, 22:48:15
I totally agree, when I took the plate off my 280 and fitted Mark’s plate with the Getrag gearbox the car had a fair bit of additional creaking and flex.

Garry
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on May 11, 2015, 16:54:19
One of the modifications I have been working with Mark on is the stiffening of the cradle.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: mkbull on May 22, 2015, 15:59:35
Working with Colin I have now beefed up the design of the Cross member.

Notwithstanding that I see no reason to change it on my own car. I still stand by the fact that the original support plate is overkill.
I do significant work on many classics of that era including db5s and db6s and the convertible versions of these cars have nothing like the structural integrity/rigidity of the pagoda shell.
The gearbox tunnels on some of these cars is a removable/bolt in item and the cross member is no more than a piece of angle iron. The pagoda on the other hand was massively engineered with 3mm plate for the tunnel and everything including the immense rocker panels and floor seat boxes are welded construction.

On the other hand, it is not a big exercise to slightly re-fashion the existing plate and re-fit it after the conversion if owners prefer.

Mark


Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 22, 2015, 16:16:08

I still stand by the fact that the original support plate is overkill.


Well, I really felt (or heard rather) the difference, not really dynamically, but by the fact the hard top is not creaking anymore on degraded surfaces. That said, my car is not stock, my front springs are much stiffer as well as the 4 shocks. So I guess the shell is a bit more stressed. Also the V8 being shorter, the transmission is about 2 inches forward and clears the plate, so I had it easier than on a 6cyl Pagoda.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 06, 2015, 06:46:10
I just received a new set of adjustable Konis: 80-1415 for the front, and 80-1416 for the back.

I wonder what is the best adjustment on a Pagoda? I saw this older thread started by Jim Villers here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=3702.0 but he doesn't mention what is the adjustment setting he used in the end. Anybody with some experience with this?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on June 06, 2015, 11:02:43
I would start at full soft and then drive the car. Then go full hard and drive the car again, preferably over the same piece of road and that should have some bumpy corners in it. Once you know what the extremes feel like you can try to find your happy medium by adjustingone click and drive. Take a notepad to record your results.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 06, 2015, 12:11:56
The thing is that one needs to take these shocks out each time they need adjusting. So I was hopping to start with a proven good setting on a Pagoda and go from there.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 22, 2015, 19:46:05
I installed the Konis today. Having stiffer springs in the front I set the front shocks at 540 degrees (out of 720). my rear springs are stock so I initially set the rear shock at 360 degrees. After a test drive the fronts were fine but the rear ones were a bit too soft (too much brake diving). So I set them at 540 degrees too and now I'm quite happy with the result. I shall drive the car around and see if it needs further fine tuning. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 26, 2015, 23:23:48
So here are a few pictures with the 15" hubcaps in place:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 27, 2015, 01:08:46
I forgot to mention: I really like the Konis. I have the Bilsteins on my Coupe and I really prefer the Konis. They are softer on compression so they let the springs do their absorption job better, and the drive is smoother. They are firmer on rebound so they also control car movement very well. It's a great concept.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on June 27, 2015, 16:41:16
If the rebound is slower than compression you can end up with "jacking", where the shock becomes compressed.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 27, 2015, 21:48:18
Well, given that these Konis are way stiffer or rebound, the latter may be quite slower than compression. I don't think they should be equal, only rebound should have fully happened before the next compression. I drove the car on very degraded surfaces and the car didn't get lower, and the suspension did not bottom down or anything like that. So I think I'm OK. From what I read, as a general rule, stiffer springs should be fitted with stiffer shocks, as it takes more strength to dampen the oscillation of a stronger spring. This is why I went with the adjustable Konis  as the Bilsteins are good for stock springs, but may have been over powered by my front stiffer springs. 

I wonder if there is a way to find the ideal shock stiffness adjustment for a given spring on a bench, or on any kind of testing device they may have in a performance shop.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 01, 2015, 02:45:18
I had a nice round trip to Lancaster PA today, to collect a part for another project I started. The trip was a mix of Interstate and State Roads. The car was a pleasure to drive. The polyurethane bushings in the front made it more precise, and the shocks seem to be adjusted at the right stiffness. The car is balanced, easy to drive and quite relaxing at highway speed. Quite a nice GT.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 24, 2015, 01:33:16
I just spent two weeks with my wife and friends visiting from Europe in Southern California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah. Due to time constraints I couldn't drive there with the Pagoda so we flew and rented a car. We had a wonderful time in one of the most beautiful part of the planet. But I was surely missing something. I built my Coupe and my Pagoda for that kind of trips and I did many such with them. This is the first time I do one without one of them since I built them and I feel the experience was not complete, as several times I caught myself thinking how nice it would have been to drive the Pagoda or the Coupe in the wonderful landscapes we were going through. I guess I developed some kind of addiction. In the same way I have difficulties enjoying good cheese without a nice glass of red wine, I'm now missing something driving across beautiful places if it's not in one one of my cars.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: kampala on July 24, 2015, 10:50:02
In the same way I have difficulties enjoying good cheese without a nice glass of red wine, I'm now missing something driving across beautiful places if it's not in one one of my cars.

Perfectly stated.  Many of us have this addiction.    Nice photos (now just photoshop a coupe in them) :D
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 24, 2015, 13:18:55
Perfectly stated.  Many of us have this addiction.    Nice photos (now just photoshop a coupe in them) :D

Thanks. But these pictures are out of the net just to illustrate my post. My friend was the photographer in chief and I didn't get the CD yet. Will post some when I do.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on July 24, 2015, 15:03:36
I used to sail yachts a lot but then I took up flying.
It's funny how you can be on a yacht and look up at a light aircraft and wish you were up there, then be on a light aircraft looking down at a yacht wishing you were down there!
If only flying boats were a viable proposition!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 24, 2015, 15:22:32
Stick, here is your next restoration project:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 29, 2015, 02:35:41
Here is a listing for Karl Middelhauve's '66 300SE Cabrio converted to M100 6.3 power and ZF 5 speed manual transmission by AMG: 

http://www.copleymotorcars.com/?showroom=1967-mercedes-benz-300se-amg-cabriolet

Asking price was $395,000. That would value the conversion at a whooping $235,000, given that Hagerty values a stock condition 1 W112 cabrio at $160,000. Of course the asking price may not necessarily be the selling price, but still.

This car had me dream quite a lot some years ago, when I had my 6.3. I always regretted MB never did it in the form of a Coupe or a Cabrio. And the manual transmission was just the icing on the cake. However, I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the W111 Cabrio, especially with the top down. I think it just looks like a big barge, when the Coupe is so elegant. Then I realized I could have a Coupe AND a Pagoda for the price of a W111 Cabrio. So that's the way I went.

I then moved away from the M100 motor because of its weight. I ended up doing my conversions with aluminum block M117s, 5.0L on my Coupe and 5.6L on the Pagoda, both fitted with manual transmissions. Not heavier than the original 6 cylinder engine, so the balance of the car is preserved.

I am posting this car here because it has been part of the dreams that ended up shaping my Pagoda the way it is today:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on July 29, 2015, 09:01:02
I think you made the right choice!
I just recently bought a 6.3, only because I've never owned one. It need some fixing up but I'll probably get around to it some time in the next decade or so.................
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 29, 2015, 09:34:31
A well sorted 6.3 is a very nice car to drive. But it is a hotrod in many aspects. When working in the engine bay one quickly realizes that the M100 engine was never meant to be there. Access to some parts are just a headache: cleaning/replacing the alcohol bottle on the suspension circuit or replacing some front air lines that connect on the front axle under the engine mount brackets may well end up into some scratched knuckles for example.

A nice 6.3 offers a rather unique combination of massive torque, comfort and class. Not the best in any of them separately, but quite a unique combination of the three. In comparison, my Coupe and my Pagoda are faster, both in accelaration and top speed, and have better dynamic qualities on road or track. They are quite sportier.  But they do not have the air suspension that equips the W109 6.3.

Here is quite an heroic Pagoda 6.3 conversion including the air suspension, with flawless execution:

http://www.auto-kromm.de/pagode/album/index.html

(http://www.auto-kromm.de/pagode/album/slides/043.JPG)

(http://www.auto-kromm.de/pagode/album/slides/044.JPG)

(http://www.auto-kromm.de/pagode/album/slides/041.JPG)

This car is fully in the spirit of a 6.3, thanks to the air suspension. However, I would be curious to see what are its dynamic qualities: the car is much shorter than a W109 chassis with a lot of weight in the front with such a heavy engine. The car may feel quite nose heavy though they are ways to address this by carefully sizing front and rear sway bars.

At some point a small series of this Pagoda 6.3 was to be made by Kromm and distributed in the US by Passarelli, but I don't see any reference made of it on Passarelli's website anymore. I wonder what the price would have been.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 31, 2015, 05:00:37
Here is another Pagoda 6.3 build: http://www.vechta-motors.de/?/98-0-Power-Pagode-68.htm

Their idea is to do a Pagoda version of the "red sow":

(http://auto.needmanual.com/files/e/eb/eb2/2011-Mercedes-Benz-SLS-AMG-C197-Catalog-Brochure-UK-2.jpg)

The engine has been bored to 6.8L and there seem to be quite some serious work being done to it. Expected power is over 400hp.

Quite interesting are the solid front sub-frame mounts. Their extension means the front axle is going to sit much lower. This also means they will have to lower the steering box by quite a lot, or go to a different system.

They also give some interesting details on the Waxenberger Pagoda:

(http://www.mercedesheritage.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/6.3-SL-1.jpg)

- 250 hp 6.3-liter M100 V8 engine;
- strengthened chassis rails and cross-members;
- different steering system;
- stiffer shocks;
- Dunlop racing tires; 
- 3.23 rear axle ratio; and
- 5 degree negative camber at the rear wheels.

Test drives were carried out on the Nordschleife of the Nürburgring in July 1967. The 10:30 lap time was considered disappointing, with a fuel consumption of about 6.7 mpg  :o

On open road however, fuel consumption was an "improved" 10.7 mpg. From what I read elsewhere, the Waxenberger Pagoda was not equipped with the air suspension.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 20, 2015, 22:26:53
Update: Today I checked the K-Jet injection system fuel pressures. I had never done it since I built the car, and it was on my to do list since then. It all looks good:

System pressure at idle: 5 bar;
Control pressure at idle with cold engine: 1.5 bar;
Control pressure at idle whith warm engine: 3.5 bar;
Full load enrichment at idle  (vacuum hose pulled off): 2.8 bar.

All these measurements are within spec of the 450SLC 5.0 injection system which equips my car, but the system pressure at idle which would need to be 5.2 bar minimum according the w/shop manual. I'm not overly concerned as everywhere else 5 bar is the standard value given for the Bosch K-jet system pressure. It can be adjusted by removing/adding washers to the pressure regulator, but I'm not sure I'm going to bother with it. The reason is that the MB K-jet systems are known to get leaner than they should at full throttle and high rpm. So if one has the correct value at idle, the engine may be too lean at high rpm and full throttle. If adjusted right in the latter conditions, then the mixture is too rich at idle and lower rpm. On my car however, I noticed the contrary. With a correct mixture value at idle, the mixture ends up a bit richer than it should at high rpm and full throttle. Which is good for power. This may be due to the slightly lower system pressure than spec. So I may well keep it where it is for now.

I then went for a drive on secondary roads in the countryside around where I live. I hadn't driven the car in a while, and I took it just after driving my wife's 230 Fintail. The car is insane. It is very behaved as long as I want it to be so. And then there is this endless push as soon as I floor it. In just a few seconds, the vegetation by the side of the road becomes all blurred. Quite exhilarating!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Shvegel on October 21, 2015, 02:26:42
What you might be seeing is the W113 is quite a bit lighter than the W107 so the engine isn't working as hard at full throttle so the fuel curve of the engine is a little over rich.  I wouldn't worry too much about system pressure since the warm up regulator is keeping you well below that anyway.  My rules of thumb for CIS is if it warms up OK the cold pressure is good and rich is better than lean.  Unless you find a really good CIS guy and a dyno I would let it go. If you really want to tinker you could tune a non vacuum warm up regulator to your car(Lighter load= less need for vacuum enrichment) but If it isn't dumping fuel into the oil I would let it go.  Who am I kidding.  I would try a non vacuum warm up regulator.

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on October 21, 2015, 09:37:51
Thanks. The car starts instantly when cold and warms up fine. I dynoed the car a while back and AFR was fine whatever the conditions. So I'm going to leave it as is. As my father says, sometimes, better is the enemy of good: by trying to improve things that do not need to be, one may end up with a result which is worse than the initial situation.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on October 21, 2015, 16:18:07
Quote
better is the enemy of good

That's great, I'm going to use it!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on January 13, 2016, 21:00:32
Happy New Year to all!

This period of the year is the anniversary of the purchase of my Pagoda. I usually take it for a spin on the first of January to remember that day when a winning bid made me the happy owner of a Pagoda after having looked for the right one for quite a while. This year though, I couldn’t drive it on the first of January as I spent Christmas and New Year’s Eve in Europe with family and friends.

This was not without some car action though, as I had the pleasure to drive the very nice BMW 3.0 CSI I co-own with a friend. I also had the occasion to drive his very nice Porsche 964.

I hadn’t driven the CSI in several years. This time, I was able to sort out an issue the car has had for a while. Someone must have tried to adjust the idle by using the throttle body stop screw. The result was that the Throttle Position Sensor was not contacting at idle and the car was idling like crap. Also the ECU kept-on supplying fuel on coasting, with a result of strong unburned gas smell each time this happened. All this is now sorted and the car runs as smoothly as ever with a nice steady idle.

The CSI has long been a benchmark for me regarding cars of that era. I find it quite modern in the way it drives. EFI really has it run very nicely and smoothly compared to carbed versions. The car is well planted on the road and quite securing. It is a very homogenous car. The CSI is also the culprit for taking me away from the MB 6 cylinder engine originally found in the Pagoda. That BMW M30 engine is so addictive, its howl so mesmerizing that I couldn’t really content myself anymore with the M130 which sounds a bit like a sewing machine in comparison (but that’s just my opinion of course!).

How does the CSI compare with my Pagoda in its V8 iteration? Well, this is where I realized how much improved the Pagoda is. Before the engine transplant and suspension upgrades the Pagoda’s older design was really relegating it into an older generation of cars compared to the CSI. It was looser on the road, and its performance was really lower. Now things are reversed. The Pagoda is much quicker and feels quite tighter on the road. Both cars however can compare by their balance and homogeneity. But the Pagoda is in another league now.

I had never driven a rear engine Porsche before. The 3.6 L is really a fantastic motor. It is very smooth, and pulls without any hesitation up to the red line. It can be described as some sort of rubber band effect. The car is extremely tight on the road, and clutch, steering, suspension and shifting are very firm, not to say harsh. I find it to be quite contrasting with the engine smoothness, to the point I feel the car not to be that homogenous in terms of driving pleasure. The other strange thing is that one is driving very close to the front wheels, and the feeling at each change of direction is a bit the same as the one felt in a van (on steroids though, and closer to the ground). Of course, Porsches are very peculiar cars, and I’m sure with a bit of adaptation time one must find it an exhilarating car.

How does the 964 compare with my Pagoda? I think the Pagoda has a bit more power, and quite a lot more torque earlier in the rpm range. Where the Pagoda jumps ahead from 2000 rpm, one would have to downshift with the Porsche to keep up. The Porsche, however, pulls effortlessly a bit higher in the rpm range. The Porsche also feels a bit harsher on the road, and I find my Pagoda can be driven with less effort. I must admit I don’t understand why the clutch is that harsh on the Porsche as it is obviously not needed: my Pagoda has quite a higher amount of torque and the clutch is much softer without slipping for that. How would both cars compare on a track? I think the Porsche would be ahead on the twisty bits, but the Pagoda would have the advantage on the faster bits. As a reference, the Pagoda could keep up with a 996 on the NCCAR track, as reported here:

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15521.msg147912#msg147912

In the end, I think driving skills would make the difference and I’m not sure I would have the advantage over my friend who is an excellent driver and a very fast one when he goes at it.

Below are some pictures of both the BMW and the Porsche taken after a cold night.     

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 12, 2016, 16:17:54
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/how-to-complete-a-trip-in-old-lamborghinis-in-under-five-disasters-column

This is why I chose a Mercedes to build my car and used Mercedes parts. I went from DC to Yellowstone and back without having to turn a wrench! Nice story though, and I like the Lambo 400GT!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on February 13, 2016, 14:01:30
Nice. I guess the Porsche is one of the few cars that shares the similar driver requirements of a pagoda when driven hard;
NEVER LIFT OFF MID-BEND!
I was on a track day once in a 124 coupe that I had fitted race tyres to. Some guy in his Porsche up ahead couldn't understand why I kept catching up with him in the turns and I could tell that he was beginning to over-drive in a bid to shake me off. I said to my passenger, "that guy is going to spin as we exit Bridge" (we were on the Hangar straight and Bridge was a turn at the old Silverstone layout several corners further around the circuit).
Sure enough; he entered Bridge carrying way too much speed for his ability, scared himself and backed off mid-corner. We did laugh!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 13, 2016, 14:30:50
124s have a very nice chassis. Some graft 124 or 201 rear end onto w111s. I would be interested in driving one!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Peter van Es on February 15, 2016, 17:48:24
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/how-to-complete-a-trip-in-old-lamborghinis-in-under-five-disasters-column

Your Lambo story reminded me of our European Event convoy of 2014 from the Netherlands to Goodwood in the UK, through Belgium, France and the UK. We gathered (with Brian in a corporate Renault, but ok) with 4 Pagoda's in the south of the Netherlands. Martijn, who in the first European Event trailered his car in to the event (and was laughed at) had one of the nicest cars of us all, but had also grown to rely upon his Pagoda. Mine looks like crap, but drives -- let's say -- pretty well, and then Rick's, who fixes it himself and likes a good time in the workshop… and Pablo, who joined us in Belgium.

As we started reaching the south of Belgium, more and more Goodwood aficionado's were seen… a British car club (MG's, Triumphs and Rovers, slow as molasses), French car clubs, Alfisti, and some really esoteric stuff (Ockelbo's, anyone ?). We Pagodista's were driving at a steady clip of 130-140 km/h where speed limits allowed, open top, not missing a beat.

We did not have accidents. We had no problems. All our cars ran like a dream. We missed no beats. And at no point were we overtaken by anything that was built before 2004, unless it was one of our convoy.

And after the Chunnel, in the UK… same story again. Pagoda's when well maintained can keep up with modern traffic easily, outrun most older esoterics (in the long run, where long is defined as any distance over 1 hour) because of the combination of performance and creature comforts and reliability.

Great story about the Lamborghini's though…

Peter
Title: Re: Pagoda front axle modification?
Post by: 66andBlue on February 17, 2016, 19:24:51
GGR,
while you are working on the rotary engine installation you might also think about adding this long forgotten front axle/steering modification!
You might be the one who can pull this of!  ;D
https://www.youtube.com/embed/QilY00dCof8
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 18, 2016, 02:42:52
For the sake of clarity my rotary project is to go into a Citroen DS (not the Pagoda!), the idea being to fit a crazy engine into a crazy car. I've also looked into fitting a CVT to make the picture complete, so as to get something as close to a flying carpet as possible. This may come later. As per these front wheels steering 90 degrees, I'm not sure! I would rather look into an all wheel drive system. Subaru has come up with a CVT all wheel drive transaxle system which may fit the bill.   
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on April 16, 2016, 13:30:31
A nicely executed 3.5L automatic Pagoda here: http://www.ecarlist.com/showroom/1208/photos/1715581#00

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/photos.ecarlist.com/Hi/aE/gW/6k/JX/n3/Se/9y/ge/yG/fA_800.jpg)

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/photos.ecarlist.com/2o/v7/Ch/1B/6j/NX/1J/BU/H1/S1/5A_800.jpg)

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/photos.ecarlist.com/sD/1g/zF/vZ/HK/b2/81/oI/P5/Qo/kQ_800.jpg)

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/photos.ecarlist.com/4O/2F/4I/bR/ZS/nH/rE/Xo/Ji/lt/NA_800.jpg)

It seems to have sold for $225.000 on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Mercedes-Benz-200-Series-/171728808888?rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=P%252Bwn9pMrbc0fWXgvnaIlfOITmHc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Similar price I heared the Hatch & Sons red 3.5L automatic Pagoda sold for a few years back: http://www.hatchandsons.com/pages/280sl/280slgt/

(http://www.hatchandsons.com/pages/280sl/280slgt/images/2.jpg)

(http://www.hatchandsons.com/pages/280sl/280slgt/images/11.jpg)

(http://www.hatchandsons.com/pages/280sl/280slgt/images/14.jpg)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on August 09, 2016, 03:21:25
My dear childhood friend with whom I share the ownership of a BMW 3.0 CSI (see a couple of posts above) visited us in July with his family. We did many things, and various visiting tours around DC gave him the opportunity to drive the Pagoda long enough to be comfortable with it. My friend being a true car enthusiast and an excellent and fast driver, I asked him to give me an honest opinion about the Pagoda, and how it could possibly be improved.

Well, I think he simply fell in love with the car. On the performance side, he confirmed the car was way faster than his Porsche 964. He felt the car was more powerful, and particularly much more torquey. He confirmed my conclusion that the 964 may be ahead on the twisty bits of a track due to its more modern chassis and its all wheel drive configuration, but would loose the advantage on the faster bits. He also praised how fully developed the car felt: easy to drive, well balanced, etc. He couldn't really think of any area that could be improved. That made me quite happy.

We also took the occasion to wash the car and attend Katie's Cars and Coffee on a Sunday Morning in Great Falls. Below are a few pictures we took after washing the car.

Not having done much on the car in a while, I now would like to fit it with a 105L gas tank to improve its range, in line with the GT spirit the car was developed in. For this, I need to graft the top part of a 82L Pagoda tank on the bottom part of a W109 6.3 gas tank. I already have the 6.3 tank, and I am now looking for a discarded 82L Pagoda tank. I posted an add here:  http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24765.0

So if you know of such a tank, please let me know.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 27, 2016, 09:35:54
At the occasion of a two-week training in Brussels I visited family and friends in France over the week ends. On the cars side I could start my nice ’73 DS Pallas and drive it a bit. Driving a DS regularly and having its green blood circulating into all of its organs is the best treatment one can give to such a Godess. I could also go-on fine tuning the BMW 3.0 CSI which is always a pleasure to drive. The melody of its engine passed 3000 rpm is absolutely glorious!

I drove again my friend’s Porsche 964 and again, I was impressed by how nice an engine this car has. After getting used to the offset pedals and the very hard clutch, I also started enjoying the car’s rigidity and preciseness on the twisty roads among the vineyards around Beziers.

The funny thing though is that my friend now wants to upgrade to a Porsche 996 turbo or a BMW Z3M Coupe. The reason? Since he drove my Pagoda he can’t live with the idea that his Porsche 964 is slower. I had forgotten how competitive he is and this took me 35 years back when we were kids. He always wanted his moped to be the fastest. His problem was that I was the one souping it up for him and I was always one or two steps ahead with mine. Not that I absolutely wanted to be faster than him. Simply, I was testing on my own machines performance upgrades I was coming up with, before applying them to the machines of my friends. So here we are again, 35 years later, as grown up men, with the same logic at play! In some ways it’s nice, we’re not aging. I’m surely not going to discourage him as this will give me the opportunity to drive a 996 turbo or a Z3M which in either case should be a blast! I just wonder what my friend will come up with once my next project is on the road:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Peter van Es on September 29, 2016, 13:15:09
I would have liked to have driven your Pagoda on the passes around Meran on the European Event 2016...  :o
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 30, 2016, 07:11:49
I saw the pictures, what a wonderful time you must have had! And I would certainly have been interested in getting your feedback about my Pagoda on these roads, given your experience in rallying these cars!

I think the Alps is one of the best places to enjoy a convertible as otherwise the roof takes away a big part of the fantastic scenery. I will hopefully be enjoying my Pagoda there one day. I once drove the route Napoleon in my W109 6.3. Performance was close to a sports car but with all the luxury and comfort! I didn't take pictures, but Harry Metcalfe did it in a Lamborghini Espada and he made a great video of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl6UYDLW1WU

Below are two pictures of the CSI in the Alps, taken about 15 years ago at the occasion of holidays in the area:

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on November 05, 2016, 22:36:34
This morning the weather was fantastic so I took the Pagoda out to Katie's Cars and Coffee in Falls Church. The car was such a pleasure to drive early morning with no traffic, amidst beautiful yellow and red leaves along twisty roads going across wooded areas.

By the time I reached there I parked the car, lifted the hood and I was talking with Denny, also member of this group, when a young guy who had been looking at the car with insistence came to ask some questions. the guy must be in his twenties, and I was surprised how much he knew about all these older Mercedes parts, as he was able to identify quite precisely the ignition and injection systems I had, their model provenance etc. It turned out he is working at the local MB dealer, but still, I was pleasantly surprised by how much he knew about all the parts I used on my car. All of them belong to models before he was born! And I doubt much of his colleagues of the same age know a fraction of what he knows regarding these older models. The guy is clearly an MB enthusiast and we spent quite some time discussing the technical aspects of my conversion. It was such a pleasure talking to him because he knew what he was talking about.

I took him for a drive, and he really liked the car. Basically he was flabbergasted such a project could be done using only MB parts with so little specific adaptation. On my side, I was happy to see so much passion and knowledge in such a young person. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a reference in the vintage MB community in a few years from now. 
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Cees Klumper on November 06, 2016, 06:49:08
That is good to hear, because many of us have to rely on the knowledge of real mechanics, so it's important that all the knowledge is preserved. I was reminded of that also yesterday, as I came across the 8 or so video tapes Joe and I shot when he and I rebuilt my engine back in 2003. When I retire, converting those tapes to an instruction manual/chapter for the etch manual on how to rebuild the engine will be one of my many projects. Plus I may end up doing a full-on 'rotisserie' restoration on my own Pagoda at that time, if I haven't sold the car at that point yet.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on November 06, 2016, 13:07:23
tell him to move to London and come and work for me!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 15, 2017, 02:12:51
I didn't report it by then but the following Saturday at Katie's Cars and Coffee I ended up in a similar situation. A middle aged gentleman was taking a lot of interest at my car and ended up asking me many questions. It turns out that he too, was an MB tech in his younger years so he knew what he was talking about. We kept on talking as he is currently working at integrating a "Vintage Air" system into his Lamborghini Espada, which is something I am considering for my Pagoda. He later sent me an email with pictures and some details on his install. Not an easy job, and a lot of thought went into the set up. But in any case, this is how his email started:

"Firstly, thank you SO MUCH for your kind tour and ride in your highly desirable and well-engineered MB this weekend at C&C.  What a marvelous vehicle and the riding experience ... not like ANY other SL I've every had.  Congratulations on the result ... I'm still amazed at the inconspicuous  (invisible?) integration of different parts so carefully done that they defy detection, at least by me.  Well done!"

and he concluded:

"Again, MUCH THANKS for showing me your fantastic MB.  Best of luck on your M120-engined project and I hope to see you back at C&C sometime soon!"

I forgot to mention Rob is also the owner of an MB600 v12 so we also discussed my current project of adapting a manual transmission onto an M120 engine that may end up into my W111 Coupe. Thanks for the kind words Rob, it definitely gives me courage for this v12 project!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on March 06, 2017, 03:38:14
I hadn't driven the Pagoda for about 3 months when I noted a leak under the rear right wheel which revealed to be brake fluid. It turns out the caliper was leaking so I replaced both rear calipers (the only mechanical parts that I hadn't replaced/rebuilt since I bought the car) with new pads and rotors. I also had to repaint the inside of the wheel as the paint had been damaged by the leaking fluid. There was no other damage to the paint anywhere else, thankfully.

The problem of the leak got solved obviously, but it also cured a vibration noise that had developed each time I was turning left. I knew it was brake related as the vibration disappeared as soon as I touched the brake pedal. I still don't understand fully how this vibration could appear each time i was turning left, but the issue is now sorted anyway. If someones knows what could cause such a vibration please let me know, as the same issue developed on my W111 Coupe and it would be good if I could sort it out without replacing the calipers which still seem to be working as they should.   
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 08, 2017, 09:43:21
I took the Pagoda for a spin the other day and again, experienced the great pleasure of its excellent balance and feel of endless torque and easy power. This car is an absolute medecine against any kind of problems as no matter what, I'm coming out of it with a smile stuck on my face for the rest of the day !

I also sorted the vibration on my Coupe's rear axle. After my experience with the Pagoda, I replaced the rear left caliper and problem is now gone. Strange that the same problem has developped in the same way on both cars at the same time !

I also worked on my V12 project which consisted of stripping the V12 up to the short block and check every thing. I'm glad I took the heads off as despite its very low mileage, the engine has sat for a long time and coolant turned acid had started damaging the head gaskets and the heads also needed a very slight resurfacing due to the same reason. I have also checked valve guides and seals and they turned to be in very good shape. The engine is now back together, with its flywheel, clutch and manual transmission mated. I'm still to work on the oil cooler and air pump delete and on the engine wiring which has self bio-degraded as is the case on many of these cars.

I will then need to decide on which car to fit this V12 and manual transmission. My first plan was to fit it on my W111 Coupe, but I must admit that the concept of a V12 Pagoda is more and more making its way in my mind...
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 08, 2017, 09:49:26
One more picture:
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on May 09, 2017, 12:28:48
So it appears that the M120 engine is about 75 kg heavier than the M117 alloy block engine currently in the car:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/2297526-post24.html

The Tremec Magnum transmission is also quite heavier compared to the Getrag 265, about 31 kg more.

Referring to my previous calculations here:

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15521.msg141234#msg141234

the total weight of the Pagoda with the V12 and the Tremec Magnum Transmission will come to 1446 kg, 106 kg more than what it is now, or 70 to 75 kg more than stock with similar option specifications, and its weight balance would get back to the factory 56/44 (considering that the transmission additional weight will sit nearly in the middle of the car) instead of today's 53/47. Not too bad.

According to some measurements I took the M120 engine is narrower than the M117 thanks to the 60 degree V and exhaust manifolds sitting closer to the heads. It is not longer than the original M130 and I may be able to have it sit lower by using the W109 6.3 front axle spacers. So the M120 may clear the Pagoda's engine bay without modification. However, the Tremec Magnum is much bulkier compared to the Getrag 265, as shown in the picture below. This will quite surely necessitate modifying the trans tunnel as the Getrag barely clears it, especially in the back left side of the transmission. Not sure I want to do this, especially when the already modified tunnel in my Coupe may clear the Tremec.


Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Jimbo1907 on June 15, 2017, 11:59:22
Which Getrag is that, Gael? Is that the standard 265, or a dog box?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 15, 2017, 12:54:14
That's an overdrive 265. The dog-leg one looks pretty much the same, in terms of size.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Jimbo1907 on June 15, 2017, 18:47:28
I am not sure how good the one is that we put in my car. If you decide the one you have is surplus to your needs, I'd be interested in buying it from you.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 15, 2017, 21:49:22
Unfortunately that Getrag is not mine. I was putting it in a friend's car and I took that picture as the Tremec Magnum of my other project was lying around.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Saman 280SL on June 18, 2017, 06:02:02
Cant wait to see your 113 5.6
I am thinking about a M104 or C36 engine
Where can I find some literature about the project
Will the M104 bell housing and flywheel need modifications to mate with the 113 4 speed gearbox
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on June 18, 2017, 22:56:56
A group member fitted a M104 in a Pagoda, see here:

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=10038.0

And another one with IRS in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k48CdNqRb2s

I don't think the M104 will fit the pagoda transmission. The M103 may be easier to adapt, as I think it may have the rigth bolt pattern. But you should cross-check this information as I don't have any direct experience with this.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Jimbo1907 on July 24, 2017, 02:55:37
You are going to love the Tremec TKO gearbox. I drove my Cobra from Stafford, VA, back to Annapolis, last week; the engine and transmission are faultless. 90 degrees or more and she did not overheat or boil off her fuel. I, on the other hand, just got cooked in that polished aluminum car, no roof, inching along on I95 in broad daylight. I am too old for this ****.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on July 25, 2017, 07:56:59
You should post a picture of your Cobra, and tell us more about it. I developped my Pagoda using the same recipe Shelby did with the AC Ace: put a V8 in a small roadster. The philosophy was a bit different though as i kept all parts Mercedes and tried to retain all the refinement of the original car, including engine character, to make it a true GT. I guess Shelby was much more after performance, and started with a lighter car. As we're not far from each other, it would be nice spending a couple of hours coparing the two concepts!   
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Jimbo1907 on September 20, 2017, 02:38:07
I have a Kirkham Motorsports Cobra. Interestingly, David Kirkham describes this car as a "hybrid". This is because it has the 289 slab-side body but the 427 Cobra frame and suspension under it. Best of both worlds, if you ask me- the better handling and braking of the bigger Cobra, but the prettier looks of the original 289 design. KMS cars are very well done- they are built in an old aircraft factory in Poland that the Kirkhams bought and converted to use to build race cars. Mine has a built up 302, about 350 hp, and a Tremec TKO 600 transmission, which is the best shifting manual box I have ever used. It shifts like a rifle bolt- really precise and easy.   Come out and see it sometime.

Today, at long last, I got to drive my 280SL complete with Getrag box. After the "incident" with 85-90W gear oil in the transmission, with which it would barely shift at all, we drained that out and put in Dexron; quite an improvement. I drove it about twenty or twenty-five miles today. The new ratios are much better. I actually think that 1st is still a bit low- I think it is 3.46 in this box, and about 3.20 would be better, moving the other ratios up closer together as well, but overall it is quite livable. I have not gotten it up to highway speeds yet but all indications seem to be that at 3000 revs she will be doing about seventy, which is fine. It is a distinct improvement over the original four-speed.

Speedy Cables finally came through for me, and we found the proper BMW fixing screw to hold the speedo cable into the transmission. We also had to remove the yoke and send it off to be sleeved, because its' sojourn outdoors whilst it was not in the car had pitted the surface which seals against the pinion seal. It seems dry now.

The speedometer seems fairly accurate, although I have to check it with a GPS or iPhone. As long as it's close I'm okay with it. The tacho needle jumps around and will need to be sent in to Palo Alto Speedometer this winter. They did the clock on my 6.3 and made a very nice job of it with new internals and stock appearance. I recommend them. I do NOT recommend that horrible outfit in New York who did the Smiths gauges on my E-type- they charged a fortune, and they came back no better than before. Nisonger, that's the name. I wouldn't trust them with a rectal thermometer.

It's been a long road to get to this point, but the car is nearly complete, and I am very grateful for the help and advice I received here, without which this would have been impossible- and even more expensive, for less results. Thanks again to all, additional info to follow as I get some miles on the car.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 30, 2017, 15:51:43
I've been looking and some Kirkham videos on the net and they look to be doing an amaizing job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBX8u8gVik4

They even manufacture their own billet alloy engine blocks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KLNJ8d8Vqc

And billet chassis!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ish34p2V3_A

I found their approach quite impressive.

I agree the earlier look is nicer. I will definitely come and see your car.

How is your Citroen?
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on September 30, 2017, 16:20:36
I'd never heard of them until today. Impressive stuff!
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Jimbo1907 on October 01, 2017, 23:15:32
Ma Deesse, elle fait dormir. She hasn't been out of the garage in a year. That's one of the next projects, to get her back on the road. I think she needs a couple of new spheres.

I also have a diesel JDM LandCruiser, an HJZ 81, I think it's called, which I want to change from RHD to LHD. Do you know anyone who's done this? I assume someone has.
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: Michael Tung on November 13, 2017, 20:47:32
Wow your M120 V12 project looks ambitious! Would love to hear more detail about that and how you've already linked a T56/TR6060 to it!

-Michael
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on November 21, 2017, 06:09:13
Hi Michael,

we exchanged on the matter via PMs, keep us posted on progress!

On the same topic, here is an intresting project using an M120:

http://www.drivelife.co.nz/2017/07/project-fz12-fraser-zacs-hand-built-supercar-part-11-clutch/

(http://www.drivelife.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Project-FZ12-Hand-Built-Super-78.jpg)
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: stickandrudderman on November 21, 2017, 18:23:14
Nice, but I have serious reservations about the chassis mods he's made in the next chapter!

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on September 05, 2018, 09:57:28
A nice article on my Pagoda came out in the September issue of the "Mercedes Enthusiast" magazine, see attachment. Thank you Reed for such a nice article!

Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: kampala on September 05, 2018, 12:31:12
Gael

Very nice article!  Congrats.  I knew your car was impressive but this really shows it off.

Best
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: cfm65@me.com on December 25, 2019, 18:06:23
Hi GGR,
I have read all 12 pages of your post with great interest. Congratulations on a great job.
I have just succeeded in fitting a Getrag 265/6 in my 250SL Auto, and am very happy with the result. I have a 3.69 diff, as most 250 SL’s were fitted with. This combination seems to be working fine.
In an earlier post you asked a question about the E Type vs a Pagoda. I don’t know if you got an answer, but here goes.
I have one of each, 67 250SL and a 67 E Type Series 1 FHC and I love them both. They are both stock standard, except the SL, now has a 5 speed Getrag and the E Type a 2.88 diff.
They are definitely two different animals, the Mercedes build quality is good. The Jaguar has more, much more power. But, as I mentioned before, I love them all, Healey's, MGs, Mustangs, Porsches, Corvettes, Cobras, Astons, et.al.
Happy Holidays to all
Regards
Chris
Cape Town
Title: Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
Post by: GGR on February 09, 2020, 23:29:41
I love them all, Healey's, MGs, Mustangs, Porsches, Corvettes, Cobras, Astons, et.al.

Way to go!