Author Topic: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project  (Read 241175 times)

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #175 on: February 08, 2014, 10:02:59 »
That piece of road that Garrynrefers to is an awful long way from anywhere so only the most determined  will be making a special journeyntongetnto it. It's also a bloody dangerous road with not only road trains wandering about but sleepy tourists trudging along at low speed and cattle and 'roos to watch out for. There's no way I'd be doing any great speeds there!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 06:55:16 by stickandrudderman »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2014, 18:20:55 »
So I finally managed to put together a pair of euro headlights and fitted them this morning. I really like the way the car looks now. Here are some pictures:

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 23:23:10 by GGR »

pmorgan

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #177 on: February 28, 2014, 18:31:03 »
Very nice!  "All the better to see <you> with"

- - Phil
So I finally managed to put together a pair of euro headlights and fitted them this morning. I really like the way the car looks now. Here are some pictures:
- - Phil
'68-280SL white body w/red interior, 5.6L AL engine

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #178 on: March 16, 2014, 13:45:26 »
Last week Dimitri drove from Maine to DC and we then proceeded to Florida in my Pagoda to attend the Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance. It took us 10 hours of driving to reach there and we managed to dodge snow and salt which was great given the crazy weather we've had lately. The Amelia Island is a wonderful event, we met several group members there and we saw some very nice Pagodas displayed on the Saturday (see my other post in the "events" section).

The Pagoda drove very nicely, and the 2500 rpm at 80 mph on the highway make the car a very nice autobahn cruiser. After the Amelia event, we drove down to Timevalve in Melbourne as the exhaust they sent me needed some work to fit properly. They did a superb job and Michael is a very nice chap, very pleasant to deal with. My exhaust now fits exactly as it should and I'm very happy with the result. I really recommend Timevalve!

We then passed by Pierre Hedary's shop in Titusville and we all had dinner together. He's got a nice shop and he is a true and committed MB enthousiast, as well as a Pagoda owner. He drove my car and he liked it very much. "An engineering masterpiece" were his comments. Quite emphatic, but nice to hear in any case! Thank you Pierre! He noted that my steering box was in need of a slight adjustment, which I did while servicing the car once back home.

On the way back to DC, we passed by "Bud's Benz" in Atlanta as we were in search of some parts and to see their shop. David, the owner, was very welcoming and took us for a tour of the shop. I was impressed by the size of the operation, the great number of very nice cars they are working on and by the huge reserve of parts they have. David called his team out to have a look under the hood of my Pagoda once he discovered what was there. David and one mechanic drove the car and they liked it.

The trip back to DC was uneventful, though we had a lot of wind on the road. The car worked flawlessly. Dimitri was a bit worried to go on such a long trip with no more than the stock tool kit. We did not have to use it once. I serviced the car yesterday which consisted in changing the engine oil, greasing lubricating points on the front and rear axles, adjust the alternator belt tension, adjust the steering box, and wash the car. It was all done in part of the afternoon. What an easy car to live with! Below are some pictures taken on the way:
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 22:02:31 by GGR »

dseretakis

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temp1
« Reply #179 on: March 16, 2014, 14:44:38 »
You failed to post this amazing picture on the beach!:

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 23:09:13 by dseretakis »

GGR

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temp2
« Reply #180 on: March 16, 2014, 14:52:47 »
I was leaving that honor to the author!

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #181 on: March 18, 2014, 22:07:38 »
One more picture, taken on the Parking of the Gooding auction:

Garry

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #182 on: March 19, 2014, 03:44:57 »
Gael,

Jags and Pagodas must go together well, photo from inside my shed a year or so ago!

Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
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GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #183 on: March 19, 2014, 09:53:40 »
Wow! Both in a close shade of blue! Nice cars to have in one's garage! So, how do they compare in terms of driving experience? I never drove an E-type but I imagine the car must have quite a strong personality.

Garry

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #184 on: March 19, 2014, 10:48:08 »
I purchased it in Georgia, USA and shipped it to Joe’s (JA17) in Ohio for PUB then Tom Collet and I drove it to LA where Tom converted it to RHD and I shipped it home, used it for about 12 months then sold it.  Did not like it as much as I had hoped, not a good highway cruiser like the Pagoda, in fact I would class it as fairly course to drive but it was an interesting experience.

I replaced it in the garage with a VW Kombi, now that is great fun and I have already driven it around Australia (12,000km) last year.
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #185 on: March 19, 2014, 11:20:59 »
Depending on manufacturing year, your car must have had all the US emissions stuff on it, so its performance may not have been up to its original design. I read that Jaguar built the E-Type V12 to compensate for the loss of performance of the XK engine on the US market due to emissions regulations. What do you mean by "fairly course to drive"? I looked at the definitions of "course" and couldn't find any that would make sense in that context (as you can see, the use of a foreign language is not always as easy as it may seem ;))

I remember being a passenger in a Combi when I was a kid, and later as a teenager occasionally while crossing Europe hitch-hiking. The engine being in the back, I remember how silent the drive is while sitting in the front. It must be a real pleasure to tour in a Combi. I developed my Pagoda for long travels and crossed the US last summer using a combination of motels, camping places and friend's places for overnight stops. Traveling in a combi must be a completely different experience and I'm very tempted. My wife wants one, and I guess it won't take much to convince me (as long as I can fit a 2L engine and a five speed, I guess I will be happy!).

floatinghat

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #186 on: July 17, 2014, 23:31:37 »
Way cool topic, love the 5.6 conversion even if not factory and nicely done.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 17:53:32 by floatinghat »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #187 on: July 18, 2014, 00:26:39 »
Thanks.

Since my last post I did quite some work on the car. Since my car had a tendency to get a bit too hot to my taste in slow traffic on very hot days, I replaced the radiator with a bigger one freshly re-cored.  I also fitted a fan shroud. There was a huge improvement and the needle now stays within a civilized range in traffic even on very hot days.

I also fitted some 15x7 steel wheels, which were originally found on W126s on the German market. I fitted some 215/60-15 tires and there was a huge improvement in handling. The car in now on rails and the limit in corners has been pushed back quite a bit. I also got some 15' hubcaps from Finland. I still need to paint them the color of the car.

Finally, the bigger wheels allowed for bigger brakes. I went with 300 mm vented discs in the front. Problem was not about braking power but durability. I was concerned the previous brakes would not hold on a track day or spirited driving on a mountain road. I lost my brakes a few times with my former 6.3. The Pagoda is much lighter, but still, I thought I would beef the brakes up to the level of the rest of the car. The new brakes can dissipate heat much better.

Saturday will be my first track day with the Pagoda. I hope it will be fun and that I won't break anything!     
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 14:14:20 by GGR »

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #188 on: July 22, 2014, 16:34:59 »
So last Saturday was my first track day with the Pagoda. The event was organized by the MBCA Virginia section (thanks Don) and took place at the NCCAR track which is very nice. When I registered for the event the green beginners' group with instructors was already fully booked but having participated to some track events while I was still leaving in Europe I was upgraded to the yellow group which is right after the green one. I was the only "vintage" car participating and other cars could be roughly separated into two groups: one were cars that had been set up for track use only. They were mostly sports cars of the eighties and nineties that had been gutted, upgraded engine and suspension and equipped with roll bars and wide slick tires. The other group were normal recent sports road cars like Porsches Carrera 4, Mercedes AMG v12 (670 hp!) etc.

The day was really fun and we started in the morning with 15mn sessions for each group and we were lapping clockwise. In the afternoon, I guess because drivers skills among yellow, blue and white group members were close enough, they had us lap on the track all together alternatively with the green beginners' group in 30mn sessions. By then we were lapping counter clockwise.

Track is very hard on cars and really reveals their weaknesses and points to what needs to be improved. I had noticed that with other cars I've owned. One may feel the car is all up to snuff for road use, but a track day will still reveal a lot. There was no exception with the Pagoda, though it came out way better than I was expecting if compared with former experiences I had with other cars.

The good:

I did not break anything and the car did not miss a beat. I've been driving it to the limit (mines and the ones of the car) session after session all day long and the car was still performing in the same way at the end of the last session as it was at the beginning of the first one. This makes me really happy. It means the car is reliable and durable even over prolonged harsh use. It means that not only the engine can take abuse all day long, but the clutch, the transmission and the rear end are up to par.

The car is well balanced. At the beginning my tire pressure revealed to be a bit too high which had the car drifting more than expected. However, this revealed quite clearly the good balance of the car as it was very easy to shift from slight oversteer to slight understeer just by modulating the position of the gas pedal while in any of the long curves.

The brakes are excellent! I am really happy with the upgrade. In the afternoon, while lapping counterclockwise, I had to slam the brakes at the end of the long straight before the hairpin, bringing the car from 115mph to a quasi-stop lap after lap. This was extremely hard on the brakes and they never missed, faded or got spongy in any way.

The car is performing well. It was obviously slower in the curves than any of the cars that were specifically set up for track use, but I could keep up with some of the normal modern sports road cars, notably a Nissan 350Z and a Porsche 996 Carrera 4 which both have a slightly more advantageous power to weight ratio than my Pagoda. In the straight acceleration the car was really doing well and I have distanced many cars including much lighter ones. I could keep up with an early Porsche 928 that has been gutted for track use, and the owner told me his engine was estimated to develop 330hp out of some dyno runs he put his car through.

What could be improved:

The car could do with less body roll. Though I have much stiffer springs in the front, the car is still taking quite some angle in the curves. This is now a bit more pronounced since I have the 215 tires because of the added grip. I had kept the stock sway bar up to now assuming the stiffer front springs would be enough to keep body roll in check. But I now realize I should fit a bigger one which should be easy enough.

The car could also do with stiffer shock absorbers on the track. I need to look for some shocks that can be adjusted without having to take them out in the process so that I can adjust them easily to the desired stiffness in a few seconds before I enter the track, and turn them back to road use adjustment while leaving the track.

As mentioned before the car is very well balanced and pretty predictable. The only exception is when entering a curve while still on the brakes: twice I was over optimistic with my speed and couldn’t slow down enough which had me enter the curve while still on the brakes. The sanction was immediate as the car threw itself sideways quite brutally. I could control it easily both times by swiftly steering into the skid. After that I was cautious to keep the car in a straight line until I could release the brakes, even if this was throwing me out of the ideal trajectory. I guess this is due to the swing axle. It should be less pronounced, more progressive and even easier to control once I fit stiffer sway bar and shocks as mass transfer will be less brutal.

People were very friendly. At the beginning they were telling me how nice it was to see a Pagoda on a track day as they were not used to see such cars in those events. Later during the day the car still drew a lot of attention, but this time due to its unexpected performance. Many came to ask and see what was under the hood. In particular during the second half of the day when all the groups were joined together, two of the fastest guys of the white group (instructors) which were driving BMWs set up for track use came to me after a session with an expression of disbelief on their faces. I had seen them catching up with me in the curvy section but I had estimated I could let them pass in the smaller straight after the long one. They were racing with each other and the one in the lead had thought he would pass me in the long straight. So he was quite surprised to see me pulling away from both of them. They were great guys and told me how much they liked the car. One of them told me that my tire pressure was too high judging by the way the car was skidding. I lowered the pressure as per his recommendations and the car indeed got a much better grip for the rest of the sessions.

The lady driving the 996 Carrera 4 also came to see what was under the hood as she was surprised to see a Pagoda keeping up with her. She really liked the car, also convened I had a bit too much body roll and encouraged me to participate to some rallycross as she said it was great to set up car suspensions.

Someone was taking pictures and I’m told they will be posted on the MBCA Virginia section website. I will try to post some of them here when they show up there.

All in all it was a great day and I came out of it very happy. It confirms the car can do what I built it for, in the spirit of the GTs of the 60s and 70s where one could use his/her GT on a track or rallye during the week end, go to work with it on the Monday and embark on a transcontinental journey during holydays. That’s exactly what my Pagoda can do. It took me to Yellowstone and back last summer, took me on the track last week end, and I did not have to turn a wrench in any of both occasions. Mind you, I don’t even have to change the tire pressure for track use as the one that works best is also the one I use on the road.

I will keep on improving the car by small steps. Next one is a bigger sway bar.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 22:22:32 by GGR »

garymand

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #189 on: July 22, 2014, 23:24:37 »
I'm amazed you arfe running only 215's.  Don't tell me they are 14" rims!  I found a 300sel sway bar at about 24mm and I run 16" 245 rubber.  What breaks did you go with?  Did you do anything with the back suspension?
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, R350, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #190 on: July 22, 2014, 23:36:46 »
I'm running 15 x 7 rims and 215/60-15 tires. I've tried some 225/60-15 tires and clearance is not enough to my taste (in fact they're touching the inner fenders when the wheels are jacked up. Do you have pictures of your car with the 245s? Here is a picture of mine last Saturday: http://taftstallingsphotography.zenfolio.com/mercedes/h1b2aab00#h31441595

I went with 300mm vented discs in the front. The back suspension springs are stock, with the thinnest shims. I also have stiffer shocks.

I will try to source a 24mm sway bar but they don't seem to be that easy to find. I may go with the 23 mm one from the w108 4.5.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 11:36:05 by GGR »

garymand

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #191 on: July 22, 2014, 23:51:24 »
I'll take a few pics.
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, R350, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2014, 21:27:20 »
Here is a picture of the car on the track. I will post more once I get them:


DaveB

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2014, 22:18:48 »
What a wonderfully conceived and executed car! And amazing fuel economy too, though not on track day though I guess.
Also an exceptional photo - best on the site in my opinion.
It's reassuring to know the aerial can take some significant g-forces but you might gain a tenth by retracting it (of course that may reduce your listening pleasure :)).
DaveB
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DaveB

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #194 on: July 23, 2014, 22:33:37 »
You haven't said much about how the transmission shifts and performs - as good as everything else?
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2014, 23:07:37 »
Thanks! I'm indeed enjoying the car a lot, and part of the pleasure comes from knowing I did it with my own hands.

While on the track I was constantly telling myself I should pull the aerial down and then I kept on forgetting while waiting in between two sessions!

MPG is great, though it has gone down a bit since I played with the timing of the camshafts which also required enriching a bit for the set-up to work at its best. I now have more torque which comes a bit earlier with a very flat curve overall. The engine is now really great, the car takes off no matter the rpm, gear or speed I'm at, as soon as I step on the gas. I'm still returning 22 to 25 mpg at 80mph in normal highway conditions. The car is quite long legged with a 2.82 rear end ratio and .81 overdrive fifth gear. That puts me at 2500 rpm in 5th at 80mph.

The transmission is one of the best components of the build. It's a Getrag 265 as found on earlier BMWs which are really nice transmissions. It was beefed up to take the engine's additional torque. Shifting is firm and precise, and everybody who drove the car really liked it. I didn't note any problem on the track, which is telling me all the synchros and bearings are in good nick.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 23:55:39 by GGR »

garymand

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2014, 23:54:22 »
I'm failing to figure out how to attazch a picture!! ???  I tried copy and paste and the picture icon above but the :'(
Gary
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GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2014, 23:59:29 »
You need to hit "Additional Options" below the window and then hit "Browse" on the "Attach" line. You then select the picture you want tot attach in your computer.

Alternatively you can hit the "attach image" icon (second from the right on the lower line above the window) and then paste a link the image is at on the web.

stickandrudderman

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #198 on: July 24, 2014, 07:05:51 »
GGR, I'm not often impressed but I am here. That is one awesome car and if I didn't have to make a living I would love to do the same.
I tip my hat to you, Sir!
(Incidentally, the continued application of brakes whilst entering a turn is called "trail braking").

GGR

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Re: Pagoda 5.6L manual trans project
« Reply #199 on: July 24, 2014, 12:30:13 »
Thank you Stick! BTW I often tell my wife I would be into older airplanes rather than into older cars if I had more money. Strangely, that's about the only times she seems happy that I don't have more money! While I was still living in Paris I was often visiting La Ferte Alais and its very interesting older aircrafts collection. One could also see some of them being rebuilt and talk to the guys, it was very nice (I'm sure it still is!). Their yearly airshow is really great, part of it thanks to the commentator Bernard Chabbert who is a true enthusiast. I encourage you to go to that airshow if you have a chance. 

I was impressed when you shared with us your involvement into older airplanes, so you see, I also tip my hat to you, Sir!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 13:51:53 by GGR »