Pagoda and MB Prices

[mdsalemi]

This past weekend was the Meadowbrook Concours.  I had the opportunity to have a long conversation with Bob Platz of Precision Autoworks of Camden NJ--noted restorer, at the Black-Tie event on Saturday night.  In tandem with the show, eBay motors had 4 MB's for sale and these were on display.  a 1953 300S Cabriolet; two Pagodas, and a Gull Wing.  Platz had something to do with all of them.

Bob said that the Gull Wing (gee it sure looked good from the outside and I looked pretty hard) needed "about $250,000 or so to make it right".  Gulp.  I withdrew my bid immediately!

The 300S Cabriolet was darn near perfect, and had the pedigree to prove it with many MBCA and other awards such as Pebble Beach.

The two Pagodas were trading in the mid $20,000's on Saturday night; don't know if they hit the reserve or not, the auctions ended Sunday 8/6 at around noon I think.  They needed some work, though most would think they were OK.  I found it interesting that Mr. Platz said to me "When you buy a Pagoda for [only] $35,000 what you are buying is a soon to come long list of items that will need a lot of [expensive]work".

I wonder what these went for...one was a euro 230SL, navy blue with cream top, and the other was a 1970 280SL.  Both 4-speeds.  Anybody following these?

He also said he'd been offered $150,000 for his Pagoda[:0], which was restored in 1980.  Its claim to fame is original leather in good shape with that "patina" that most people love.  He turned down that offer.  The line forms behind me for the $150,000 offers.

At the actual Concours, Mike Kunz, manager of the new MB Classic Center in Irvine, came by to see my car--gave me his card--and said if I want to sell, give him a call.  Don't think they are talking $150K!!!

Another interesting point with my Pagoda on display--the 568 Signal Red which seems to be in disfavor amongst Europeans?  Well I'm here to tell you it is VERY much in favor with Americans!  More positive comments on the paint color (and condition) then anything else.

For those that are interested there was an astounding collection of pre-war MB's on display--some from the Classic Center and others from private collections.

The "Best of Show" for European marques was the Horch that many of us saw at RM Restorations last Sunday when Dan Caron arranged a tour for us as part of the Meeting of the Clans.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Ed Cave]

Michael:

Holy smokes![:0]

I did not know that you had been invited to present your Pagoda at Meadowbrook. Wow, that's quite an honor and certainly says a lot about you, your car and its gentry.

Congratulations! That is quite an honor. Many in this group would give their left visor    to have experienced such an opportunity.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430

[al_lieffring]

One thing that I remember from back when most pagodas still had the original finish on them, was that they all had runs in the paint on the bottom side of the hood (bonnet).

This makes me wonder, would a judge at a concourse event subtract points off if the factory runs in the paint are sanded out smooth?

Al

113-042-10-014715
built 11 Jan 66
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition- rust bucket

[mdsalemi]

Al and Ed,

One does not go to one of "these" Concours (Meadowbrook, Pebble Beach, Greenwich, etc.) with a Pagoda and rightfully expect ANYTHING other then great memories and a good experience, myself included.  These I received.

The judging at Meadowbrook is purely political and subjective; this is completely OPPOSITE to the arguably objective scale of the MBCA. So paint runs, or smooth paint are not relevant, really. they didn't open my trunk or look in the engine or anything.  2 minutes, a handshake, and "nice car" was my judging.  In my class, about 10 cars, the 3 awards went to a 1957 BMW 507 (about 226 of them made, very rare); a Porsche Carrera II Cabriolet (26 of them made) and a 1967 427 Corvette (don't know how many made, but it was the last of the 427's)  I would guess that 1-2-3 were in order of value!  In other classes, it is the usual gang of suspects that get the awards; the winner of the day was Joe Cassini III with the aforementioned Horch (also won Pebble Beach a couple of years ago) and he now has a Delahaye under restoration at RM.  Arturo Keller brought a collection of 5 pre-war Mercedes.  There was a collector from Maine with a similar stable.  These guys "run the circuit" and to be fair, spend a lot of money.  At the Black Tie the night before, Mr. Cassini spent $10,000 on some artwork at auction.  Goodness knows how much he spent coming to Meadowbrook.  Arturo Keller had his "handlers" with him, polishers, detailers, and mechanics.  These names might not mean anything to you, but all the "winners" of all the great shows are all the same guys.  So, work on a committee, go to a show, pay attention, read the programs and you'll see the same names keep popping up.

The judges spent lots of time ogling over the "compound curves" of the back of the Porsche; too bad they didn't appreciate Bracq's curves on the 113!  They spent all kinds of time looking over an old but beautiful Daimler SP250 roadster; see one here: http://www.sportscarmarket.com/profiles/2005/January/English/index.html but alas it didn't win anything.  But it was pretty cool.  a V8 in a fiberglass bodied Triumph with SU carbs, and Lucas electricals.  No wonder it isn't made anymore...

I was not the only 280SL in the class; don't know if that was a mistake or not.  Fellow MBCA member Tommy Amaker from Ann Arbor had is, but with the hard top, so it provided a nice contrast to see with and without in Coupe and Roadster form.  Tommy should have entered his 1971 280SE 3.5 Cabriolet.

And, no I didn't really believe or take seriously any notion of $150K for a Pagoda...but it was a funny conversation that I had to share.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[miltnme]

as a newbie to the world of Padodas, i must be naive, i would have thought for $35000 i might get a really great car, is $35000-$40000 not realistic for an excellent condition (mechanical and body) 1971 280sl with 45000 (original miles)?

thank you
jonathan

[rhersberger]

I think Platz must be used to dealing with trust fund babies and Wall St. whizes.  Perhaps if one's goal is to win Meadow Brook or Pebble Beach, you might spend that kind of money restoring a Pagoda.  Course, then you'd never drive it!

You can spend a lot of money restoring a Pagoda, but if you take your time and budget accordingly, you can have a very nice car that turns heads and that you can still feel comfortable driving.

Rod Hersberger
Santa Barbara

'68 280 SL red, tan, 4sp., both tops
'01 S Type Jag, BRG

[hauser]

Here's the 230sl that was up for auction.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=290013583144&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[norton]

Here's a link to the other Pagoda's up for auction at Meadow Brook http://motors.search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?GetResult&sass=bid123sold&fpos=48047&saprchi=&sacat=-1&sofocus=so&fis=2&seller=1&saprclo=&ftrv=1&from=R10&satitle=&fsop=1&ftrt=1&sadis=200&fsoo=1&sbrftog=1

Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe

[mdsalemi]

Rod and Jonathan--

Note that the reserves were NOT met on the Pagodas!  They didn't get past the low 30's.  That says it all; not what some expert says.  Something's worth only what one will pay for it, right?

No matter how much you spend a Pagoda will be nothing but a "field filler" at Pebble Beach or any place like it.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Kenneth Gear]

Jonathan,

I think the concours world isn't an accurate reflection on real world prices and value.  $35K-40K should get you a great car that will hold its own in, or perhaps even win, a local car show.

Did you ever see the Saturday Night Live skit about the computer repair guy at a big corporation who gets all "put out" and annoyed  by the idiots in the company who can't diagnose or fix their own computers, I can't help think about him when I'm around some councours types who look at you with disdain because the finish on your sheet metal screws is too glossy, etc. Having said that, councours events are a whole lot of fun to attend and drool over the cars which are presented perfectly and look amazing.

To take a highly restored pagoda and bring it up to these standards would likely cost a minimum of $20,000 (probably much more) but the money would be spent on subtle details that many real world enthusiasts would never notice.

Sounds like Michael had the right attitude going into the event.  Congratulations, Michael, on being invited, that's quite and honor and I can't wait to see your car some day.





Ken G
1971 280 SL
Silver/red

[Mike Webster]

Michael,

You're much too humble. You're car was nothing short of stunning. I work that show every year as a volunteer. To me it's all about eye candy, big money, and politcs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding they ask people to enter their cars. This year I worked as a ringmaster for the the GM "Parade of Progress" display (check it out at http://www.futurliner.com/account.htm). It consisted of seven GM cars built between 1949-1953 and a GM Futureliner Coach. Five of the cars, including two concepts were owned by the GM Haritage Museum (closed to the public) and the other two by private collectors. One private car was a 1953 Corvette, one of eight owned by a gentleman from New York. Being his "driver", he drove it from New York to Detroit for the show. He told me it had over 5000 hours of restoration in it. Not bad for a "driver".

Mike in Detroit
1965 230sl silver/red

[miltnme]

A big thank you to everyone for their input on the pagoda prices, my wife and i have been saving our pennies for years, and finally at this stage in our lives we are ready to take the plunge and see about buying one.

as neither of us are mechanical or DIY'ers we want to buy the best for our money, so that its not a Project car or in the mechanics shop all the time.

we are going to riverside (from san francisco) this weekend to look at a 1970 280Sl (auto), we'll keep you all posted.

thank you
jonathan and heidi

[rhersberger]

Michael:

Of course a Pagoda will likely never be more than "field filler" at Pebble.  The Pagoda had a fairly large production run, so they are not rare or scarce.  I was simply trying to make a point about having and enjoying a good looking, highly servicable Pagoda that you can enjoy driving everyday vs. one in which the owner has $70 - $80K invested.

Rod Hersberger

[Benz Dr.]

The 370S Manhiem that was at the '' clan '' show was suposed to be at Meadowbrook but sadly it couldn't make it. While it was parked on my driveway Carl decided to start it up to put it back into his trailer. For some reason gas started leaking out the carbs and he didn't try to start it. A number of us pushed the car back to his trailer.
Carl called me the other day to tell me he didn't make the show. He said coolant had leaked into a cylinder and the head has to come off. I think he never starts it or drives the car so this isn't that surprising. I guess when a car is that rare and valuable you don't take any chances but some amount of driving might be a good idea. He would have to put tags on it though.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061

[Vince Canepa]

I know Bob Platz a bit and in some ways, he is spot on about prices (although I would take a $150K offer so fast that the offerer would not have time to breathe his next breath).  A nice car that can be respectably taken to car shows can be had for $25 - 35K and depending on the competition, you might even take home some hardware.  However, I also feel confident that the same car will have several issues, that if corrected, can add many thousands to the initial price.  The problem is that the list is never ending.  If you want those issues corrected by a top line shop where hourly rates are from $60-100 it doesn't take long to spend real money.  Add parts into the equation it gets worse.  Finally, every job has the "while you are in there" factor, especially if you get into cosmetics.  After all, would nice but slightly scratched chrome look right against a Bob Platz paint job?  That is why there are Pagodas out there that have cost the owner in excess of $200K.  Are they worth it?  That is an individual call.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[Longtooth]

Michael... you bring out the real factors in the concours events of note.  Bottom line is... money talks, everybody else walks.  The winners of class (or even place, show) increase the value of the car in the general valuation world of classics.  The reward of restoring or maintaining the rare ones is eventually returned as a monetary one... whether simply by minimizing the loss (cost of restortion exceeds ultimate price at which eventually sold), or in real monetary profits. The politics consist of who's the most influential owner in a given competition of otherwise equally deserving examples of the breed or class. Another factor in politics is not pissing off the ones that you want to show their car at the next big show.  

A lot of the concours winners are showing their cars for clients or prospective purchasers... and a win/place goes a long way to insuring the prospective owners are paying top dollar to the restorer or person selling... since without such economics at hand, the grease dries up and the restorations aren't worth the expense.  I know one restorer and have met another (stuff that goes for $350k - $450k range at Pebble)... they don't do this for their mental health or 'satisfaction' of a job well done... it's about making a buck in a narrow field and maintaining the reputation required to gain and repeat gains with clients.   The 'satisfaction' comes from being recognized with top prize and more to the point, that this provides for top prices for your show car restorations.  

The relative economic fragility of a $400k classic (a single rear-ender can undo most of the $400k in value) forbid's these being driven much or at all.... they're museum collector's pieces... displayed for status value... a poor man's (rich poor man)  thoroughbred stables of sorts.  There's pride of owning a rare and more importantly, expensive classic... and the status that goes with it.

For our 113 class however, there's mostly just the pride and satisfaction that goes with the car, it's sporty, yet comfortable drivability, it's georgeous body design that turns heads no matter what.  A full restoration, frame-up, cosmetics, mechanics, the works is an expensive proposition... at which point you most likely have a classic that you won't do much driving in.  The objective, in my own personal and humble opine is to maintain the original form, fit, and function of the car... spending when you can afford to maintain that objective...improving the state of the vehicle over it's state when it was purchased by you, then maintaining and improving on it over time while driving.  Collecting the rarer parts which continue to escalate in price so it can be maintained within reasonable economic bounderies over the course of your ownership (stewardship is probably a better descriptor).

To feel comfortable driving at 85 - 95 mph (it would be higher except for the fear of getting caught with a 'reckless driving' ticket in CA going over 85...... assuming the Cop would give me a 10 mph break if I wasn't actually driving carelessly) for extended durations (an hour or more), accelerate on demand, corner comfortably at high speeds, without breaking out in an anxiety attack at the fear of losing it, breaking it, or having to treat it like it belongs in a museum or locked in my garage for future value is my satisfaction  I guess I'm still just a kid at heart.... somewhat more mature than at 19 - 25, not quite as careless, but the heart of the kid I was is still beating loudly.

If you aren't driving it, you're showing it, or restoring it, or saving to restore it, or don't need it and parked it for lack of interest... or you think it's of a value beyond being driven. I bought mine with 103k miles on it... in '84... last 3-4 years prior owner hadn't driven it much... so I figured it was driven an average of 100k miles over period '67 thru '80... 13 years or ~8k miles/year.... teacher owned.  Since then, I've put another 26k miles on it (8k the 1st 2 years I owned it, and 18k since mid '00... or an average of 3.5k miles/year... most of it in late spring, summer/fall driving.... the years between '86 and '00 it was parked in the garage waiting 'til I had the means to restore it to a level of satisfaction I could start with ... while I raised 2 kids, bought house(s), and put my kids thru University... oh, and worked 15 hrs a day.  What sparked me finally was my best friend's untimely parting at 50 years old... his advice to me was quit putting off what you want to do before it's too late.... and you never know when it'll be too late until it's already too late.

So the value to each owner of a 113 is their own reasons for owning one.  I've often asked myself whether I'd spend on the 113 if it had only 1/3rd the approx. mkt value it has.... the answer has always been a decided, unarguable, "yes".... just the value of the driving experience alone is worth my expenditures on it.  Granted, I can afford the experience... and I don't put much more if any into it than it's market value at any given point in time.... so I try to maintain a rational balance in economic terms.  Think about it this way... you're driving around a nearly 40 year old sports-car like it was driven off the new car lot yesterday... almost anyway.  My intent is to be able to say that when it's 50 years old...and if my luck holds, then my daughter will be able to say that when it's 60 years old.... and maybe 70? years old?... though just the run-of-mill mechanical wear/tear parts are going to become an issue I think over the next 10 -15 years.

At that point, good parts cars are going to be going for $20k or more.  Classic car parts houses are going to be staying in business by buying up the cheap ones... not for restoration, but for parts alone.... the drivable and cosmetically right 113's will become rarer to see and obtain... demand will go to and fro as usual... but values will always rise to at least keep pace with inflation and cost of maintenance and normal wear/tear parts.  As cost of energy increases, so demand will drop for these cars... fewer in the market for casual use... and the market will part... more and more of the 113's with papers and history of ownership and restoration will increase beyond the rate of inflation, and those with questioned past and ownership will whither in demand, so I think you'll see a larger proportion of available 113's seeing higher end prices than is the case today.  And

I won't be at all surprised to see some of them become real outrageous 'hot-rods' with non-MB engines/trans, wheels, suspensions, with body modifications to suit.  With the basic body styling as it is, I'm already surprised this hasn't begun to occur.... though I have begun to see some subtle body styling & interior styhling changes on the 190sl's of late.... still the classic look, but with some very obvious body & interior (seat's and dash) modifications.  The same can be said to begin to occur in a few years time to the 113's.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

[mdsalemi]

Longtooth,

I drive my 113 in addition to showing it.  Yes its highly restored, but still not much more "valuable" then a new Mercedes, or any other high end car!  It drives to the shows, and has driven to every show as I don't even own a trailer.  So it looks good, and drives well too...until it doesn't: the inevitable stone chips etc. will slowly work their way in.  You CAN have a good driver and a good Show car as well.  I have an attitude that what was built once, repaired once can always be done again.  While I don't go to mall parking lots I did drive it to Dan Caron's (400 Miles last weekend); drove it to Starfest 2 years ago; to Joe Alexander's last year, and might go to the MBCA 50th anniversary stuff in Chicago in September.

Interesting point about all the restored trailer queens at Meadowbrook: the single most expensive (according to those in the know) car at the show was a 1931 Mercedes Benz SSK Sport 2 in original, unrestored but drivable condition.  The judges and executive committee were saying it is a "15 Million dollar PLUS" vehicle.  Rough but in astoundingly remarkable shape.  It won something; but as I didn't go to the half-day long awards ceremony I just know it got a blue ribbon.

Those of you that value originality and patina over restoration and bling, you'd LOVE this car.

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Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Vince Canepa]

Longtooth - Has California passed "automatic reckless" laws recently?  Virginia is that way - and it is dumb.  80 MPH and a confusing bunch of other arbitrary speed plus x-miles offenses are "automatic reckless" and they are almost always pled down.  To me that makes the offense meaningless.  I grew up in Santa Cruz County and lived there for 45 years.  Before I moved in '92, reckless driving was reserved for serious offenses and was equal in gravity to DUI.  The CHP is still a class act, though, IMHO.  East coast police tend to be poorly trained and very unprofessional by comparison.

As for the big Concours events, with a few exceptions I don't go to them anymore.  They are just a "dog-and-pony" show.  The best of the big shows is Amelia Island.  For a really great one marque show, the Cavallino Classic is a must see (Ferrari).  Many owner (i.e. amatuer) restorations do nicely there.  As for M-B concours events, I showed my car at the NNJS June Jamboree (June 10 at MBUSA in Montvale).  What a joke.  The judges didn't know a Pagoda from a Hyundai.  I walked away in disgust during the body judging.  They were clueless as to how a Pagoda was built.  The car took 1st in class, but it is a meaningless success.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[Longtooth]

Micheal,

 You described your's as

quote: highly restored, but still not much more "valuable" then a new Mercedes, or any other high end car!

I was just at a local MB dealer (my wife's SL500 needed some tweeks) and while waiting a few minutes was purusing the "new Mercedes" in the showroom... which basically bounce around between something at/near $100k and $150 (excluding the AMG's & the McClaren of course).

So do you value your '67 250SL at $100k or more?... Tell me some-more!!!! and how??? you get it this highly valued?  Frame-up Restoration ?  All new / rebuilt suspension components, $25k paint job? .... I naturally assume a show-class engine compartment, matched numbers, etc. I only ask since you use it as a driver as well... and don't trailer it?

Following is a rather lengthy (tome like, in fact) description of my vehicle's restored / corrected / rebuilt parts and condition to date.  Don't bother reading unless you're interested in the state of an original version car with a restoration of cosmetic's and rebuild of mechanicals.... what was done to make it as near to mechanically and cosmetically new as possible (thus far) within a reasonable budget and time. It was appraised 4 years ago at $29k before most chrome was replaced and several other odds/ends in state of visible disrepair were corrected, but after the engine rebuild & engine compartment restoration, interior leather upholstery, soft-top, and carpeting was replaced. It was appraised last year at $38k in relative state as described below... though I think the appraisal was slightly over-stated.... so I give it a $35k value at present.  Color's now MB 702 (smoke silver metallic), but was a cream/tan original color, with Brown interior and soft-top) originally and now.

Mine's an orig. CA, Santa Clara Valley purchased/owned, dealer installed A/C (Kuhlmiester), orig. Blaupunkt radio (works great).. but not (alas) a Becker... both tops, orig. trunk matt, spare wheel cover, tools, & wheel Wedge, no rust or slight rust runs anywhere when I bought it ('84), nor since of course.  I've had it painted, metal up, laquer, stripped except for the front windshield (still has orig. glass, and it needs to be replaced... so when I do that I'll have the section redone to eliminate the ever-so-slight (discriminted by anybody familiar with and looking for this kind of detail, but not others) paint ripple at the taped edge), almost everything rechromed by the premier show chrome shop where any evidence of chrome surface pitting was evident with my magnifying glass in good light).  I even rechromed the interior mirror parts, and mount... both of which are notorious for getting rust pits... and resilvered the orig beveled glass mirror.  Even removed and rechromed sun visor brackets and mounts... also notorius for getting rust pits. Trunk rubber seal is original... only one minor tear in one spot, otherwise still supple and sealing. Rubber door seals at front are torn and need to be replaced though, and 2 or 3 of the chrome strip teensy screws (front of door, inside) are gone... need to find replacements.

Engine (long block) rebuilt with my (orig) block by Metric in LA, injector pump overhauled (Pacific Fuel Injection)... injectors tested... nothing to replace/repair on indjectors themselves. New A/C compressor, condenser, all pumps, hoses, belts replaced... engine compartment restored to show condition (all orig. plating, new hoses, all perhipheral parts removed, painted with MB black or as orig. color orig. finish)... new exhaust pipes and mufflers (not stainless), new engine mounts.  New front springs. A few of the firewall rubber seals are torn slightly... need to find out how to replace those that are.  New gas tank installed... new fuel lines, filters, repaired fuel pump, etc.  Completely refurbished mechanicals... albeit some items (see below) that needed to be repaired/refurbished didn't get done or didn't appear to need it at that time (4 years ago). All work done by professional long-time highly experienced MB shop (Hans Nissen Automotive formerly of Santa Clara, later in Campbell), very, very highly experienced with the W113's from 230's on up.  

New softtop, orig. MB Haupische Grade & color, re-upholstered seats (with new hair pads), dash, & window pillar's, & boot cover (Orig German grain and color matched to orig. chocolate), new carpeting all around (front, back, rear wall) (Orig MB Sq Weave & color)... original, unrestored door upholstery... slightly discolored insome small spots along window edge in some spots... otherwise unblemished. One of the remaining items I need to take care of.

The only lights that don't work are my Fog-Lights (internal) .... haven't yet found the circuit or traced wiring to where-ever MB of North America's MB spec's omitted making the connection(s)... it may be at one of the ignition switch terminals though.  The reflectors (plastic with chrome deposition) are flaked, so I need to find a deposition chamber somewhere to remove and redeposit chrome film).  I even restored the License plate light plastic clear covers.... tedious and demanding effort given the number of cracks in them (plastic fell into pieces as soon as I removed the rubber seal from around the edge).  Original all red tail-lights still in excellent condition... one 1 cm spot discolored at one edge next to chrome... chrome rim still nearly as new.  I wired up the high-beam flasher to the stalk's flasher circuit --- MB North America's version wiring was taped up and secured by factory under the dash near the back of the fuse box.  Refurbished the turn signal copper contacts and surfaces for as-new switching force and return action.
 
Original Wood refinished (restored by me under direction of restorer using his materials, stains, colorants, final coat materials... not an easy task given restorer's perfectionism and attention to details I would never have even thought of, much less considered important).

Hard-top needs to be repainted... orig. re-paint skimped on this by not removing the chrome ski-racks (which requires removing or at least partially removing the head-liner), so the chrome ski-racks and other chrome on the soft-top was taped off during repaint, but the head-liner & rear wood is in great shape.... 2 spots of very slight slight yellowing near rear window, so I need to restore the hard-top to it's rightful condition yet... it's in partial state of dismounting chrome and window seals.... work on it in winter.... but I'm getting impatient, so may load it on my pick-up and take it to finish off by a pro.... $$, or time, or wife ****ing about time I spend not directly on her (my professional employment = her spending money from my income... so that time's actually spent on her in the larger scheme of things), or things she wants done... which of course always have priority over anything I want to do... par for the course.

My beauty-rings (pre-280SL type) have a little curb scrape on one of them, and some small almost invisible radial creases in another... but chrome's intact and not pitted...... can't tell anything's wrong from 15 feet though. I still need to replace them but they're getting pretty pricy to find them though.   The running board chrome strips need to be replaced yet... dinged and scraped from somebody's hard healed/soled entrance/exits.... mostly on the driver's side.

Steering wheel's original black so has tell-tale aging small cracks in it, but chrome horn ring's unblemished, as is center pad and padding and chrome surrounding it, and I polished (plastic polish) the clear plastic covering the star center so there's no swirl marks, discolorations, or aged appearance in it now.  Actual steering wheel should be replaced though.

I've removed the entire dash instruments, heater controls, etc, 3x now... once shortly after I bought the car to replace bulbs in the heater controls, and one of the instrument lights... I forget which, and again before painting, then again after having discovered my revolution cable wasn't staying snugged / hooked up right at the revolution counter.  Each time though I forgot (or neglected in my zeal to get things back in functional order) to take the time to repolish the heater control plastic disks... as the white one is semi-unclear (aging). I also noticed after reinstalling everyting the 3nd time that there's some slight interior drip? on the inside of my instrument glass... from 39 years worth of condensation with top down in cooled off summer evenings here (90-100 degr in day, down to 65 - 68 at nite from coastal influence with on-shore evening breeze... even though always parked in closed garage).

What doesn't quite work or isn't right yet?  That I know of yet at least...

My glove-box locking shaft (that turns 90 degr to catch the back of the dash metal to 'lock') is slightly mis-aligned to the back of the dash metal... so won't quite turn all the way into full lock position.... haven't got around to figuring out just exactly why it interferes yet.

Wheels are painted black... rather than color of body... will correct when I replace tires next.

Hose clamps need to be regalvanized to MB galvanization (goldish color)... I removed the originals to regalvanized them and replace with the more reliable modern type.... and still need to find a couple that had been removed before I purchased the car.

Passenger mirror has one thin vertical stripe in it so needs to be removed and resilvered...  Hans Aus (Australian 250SL owner) fixed his and instructed me on how to remove the mirror (on this site), but I started then decided to wait 'til I had more patience collected.... haven't gotten back to this task yet though).

One of my jack-tube rubber insert covers was copped by someone... I even know where & when, but not the precise who, so can't accost anybody for taking it.

My locking gas-cap is keyed to my key, but is frozen in the unlocked position and I havne't been able to unfreeze it yet... took everything apart to get at the locking mechanism but couldn't get it freed-up.  I'll eventually have to take it to a proper lock-smith to correct. Speaking of keys... I still have both the original MB key rings (& both full sets of keys) that came with the car... a reddish-brown colored leather flap, stitched at the periphery with a light goldish colored thread, with the metal star symbol carrier attached to the flap at the top.

I'm discovering some of the peripheral mechanicals that need fixing... the oil heat exchanger developed a tiny crack at a seam on the coolant side and has been repaired now.  My 4-speed shifter stopped being able to engage anything last week-end in SF traffic without specifically holding the shaft in a "correct" position to get gears to engage (after a few seconds of searching for the right gear and push/pull direction)... found disintegrated split spherical bushings... picking up the new ones tomorrow to re-install.  I have a gut feel somebody used gear or motor oil to lube them at one time (just be removing the rubber cover at the base of the lever... then dripped in a few squirts of oil or WD40 or somethinga... and the oil attacks the plastic bushings.  Grease (like wheel bearing variety or vasoline has to be used... not oil... there's a difference!)

Window felt on both sides on both windows needs to be replaced... and some window-well rattles when going over rough surface road bumps (window's down position) need to be found and corrected.  Oh, and my 6 mm round-head phillips chrome screw with estucheon that screws part of the passenger side door panel to the door... was lost and I need to replace it (thank-goodness I don't carry passenger's very often, or they'ed have pulled on the arm-rest in closing the door and bent /creased the panel I fear).    

Orig. windshield glass is pitted... no problem unless sun's shining from front at an angle... and the rubber and chrome strip surround needs to be replaced.

I found out (by reading the topic on the windshield wipers) that mine are 280 type... so I'm guessing again that somebody, long ago, at some shop (Nissen formerly of Santa Clara and Campbell, most likely, since that's the only place the car was ever serviced by former owner and me since '69 thru '01)... replaced the originals long ago.... unthinkingly at the time I would presume.
 
Orig. Bosch distributor bearing or bushing is worn some... not replacable, so will have to replace with OEM or different but compatable Bosch PN, or convert to solid-state ignition at some time in future.  Still able to time and maintain timimg, but it's tricky with the worn bearing to get it set right.  Still have the orig. black plastic distributor cover (not cap... the cover that cover's the whole distributor).... but I don't put it on since I'm not showing the car... and I'd guess nobody judging it would even know enough to notice such anyway.  

I replaced my master cylinder last year with new seals/o-rings and had my brake-booster repaired with new rubber inside (still with my original can/case and blue label). Window washer pump is fully functional --- removed and repaired (just a stuck impeller shaft from long time unuse sitting in garage for 14 years). Replaced Clutch and clutch booster a two months ago... last time clutch was replaced was several years before I bought the car in '84... booster was still the original.... clutch was one of those things that should have been replaced when engine was out 4 years ago.  

There are some details I probably omitted, but basically the car's in pristine drivable shape (save for the last 2 times I've driven it on or to 1st Sunday drives... which is telling me something... ha), all original parts (save the master cylinder I think is all that's not, but was replaced with correct PN, & the gas tank, exhaust pipes and mufflers and radiator were replaced), mostly cosmetically restored... some left to do though as described above.... oh, all numbers match, btw.
 
So... in gross sense, what's left to be done... the relatively costly stuff ----

 4 Beauty Rings @ ~$350 - $400 each = $1,500 - $2,000
 
 Hard Top - Chrome =~ $1,000
 Hard Top - Paint =~$1,000
 Hard Top - Head-Liner (say new or cleaned or dyed and reinstalled by pro) ~= $1000
 
 Windshield Glass - Orig MB Glass ~=$1200
 Windshield Chrome including pillars ~=$600
 Windshield Labor (I'll leave it to a W113 restoration pro) ~= $400
 
 Repaint / blend region at Windshield when it's out (with instruments & dash leather removed and out too) ~= $1000

 Steering Wheel, Black - ~$350?
 
 Misc. - Other chrome, Instruments Lens Interior cleaning, Fog-Light Reflectors redone, correct windshield wipers, etc. ~= $1000 - $1500 or so
 
Rough Total around $9,500 - $11,000 left to do the obvious.... most of which is non-labor.

This is ~1/2 again as much as I've put into the car already since I bought it for $10k in '84.  So I'll have about a total of $40k into the car when I complete the above list ( I actually keep an exact cost of ownership spreadsheet, separated by restoration costs and maintenance costs, both parts and labor components... by the way, parts costs (i.e. rechroming parts, purchasing parts) have been appreciating at a greater rate than labor costs), say over the next 3 years... and at which time I expect the approximate market value will be about the same ($40k, give or take 10%, or with some luck, maybe more.  With parts appreciating at greater rate than labor, I'll be spending on pure parts earlier (beauty rings, for example) in the 3 years and hold off the major labor costs as much as possible.

Now... if anybody that reads this ever perchance happens to meet my wife, you must swear to the secrecy of my above remaining costs estimate or fear for reprisals if you let her know, 'cause though I rarely have ever knowingly lied to my wife, in this case I've told her only half the above costs is all that's left to be done.  Course, since she drives an '02 SL500, Sport Version with 20k miles on it, she ought to be glad I'm not opting for a brand new SL55, doncha think? Of course, that's male logic... female logic works somewhat differently based on my experience to date... not that I've figured out how the female logic works in spite of all my experience trying to devine how it works, 'cept that it always, always is counter intuitive from my point of view.... or perhaps just alien (read, out of this world).... and inevitably surprises even my best guesses as to what it will be.  
 


   

   



Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

[J. Huber]

Longtooth, sounds like a very nice car. Hope to see some pictures! or even the real deal one of these days. Anyway, I believe Michael's is a 69 280 not a 67 250 -- but it is gorgeous. Pretty much my dream Pagoda. And the fact that he drives it makes me happy. Afterall, these are automobiles -- and driving is them is what its all about. Of course, I wouldn't turn down Ed Cave's (or Jans' or Mal's or Terry's or....

James
63 230SL

[Vince Canepa]

Longtooth - Your car and mine sound quite similar - see this link:

http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4800

Mine is fully detailed underneath so the entire chassis looks like the engine compartment.  I have a standing offer in the mid-forties.

Bob Platz 280SL is restored to the every last nut and bolt state.  There was a '71 280SL at the MBCA Star Tech event in North Carolina last year - the owner had spent $235K restoring it (according the the shop that did the work).  At the Essen classic event a 280SL went for 155K Euros.  The classic center is asking around $80K for a low mileage 280SL.  And every day you can buy a Pagoda for $15-25K.  So prices are all over the map.  If Michael wanted to sell his car for $100K and, this is the key, a buyer was willing to pay it, that is what the car is worth.  In the case of Bob Platz, and assuming he isn't "embellishing", the value  of the car to someone is $150K.  I think Michael and I both indicated that if someone were to offer us that sort of money it would be awful hard not to grab it and move on to another car.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[Ed Cave]

Brian Peters just sold a nice '71 280SL 4-speed for $65k. This looked like a very nice car but there are better ones out there that would, undoubtedly bring a price higher than that. www.motoringinvestments.com He has another one listed at $64.5k and another very nice one that he has had listed for a while at $95.5k

Granted there are only a handful of Pagodas that would sell north of $65 to $75k, but they are out there and they do exist. They are certainly the execption to the rule of thumb when people discuss the value of a really nice Pagoda.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430

[J. Huber]

Wow Vince. Very nice. Add yours to my list of dream 113s. I can only imagine how it feels to have a Pagoda that looks like it just rolled off the assembly line. Mine resembles a 43 year-old car more than a new one and I still adore the heck out of it and the way that it performs each and every day. Enjoy 'em friends.

James
63 230SL

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by Longtooth

I was just at a local MB dealer and while waiting a few minutes was purusing the "new Mercedes" in the showroom... which basically bounce around between something at/near $100k and $150 (excluding the AMG's & the McClaren of course).

Longtooth,

So, your dealership doesn't sell any C-class, E-class, ML-class, or R-class vehicles??  There are quite a lot of new MB cars out there for $40,000 to $60,000.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Longtooth]

Vince & Micheal...

1st Vince... mine's not like yours... both 250's, but mine's not detailed underneith.   A frame-off, nuts/bolts frame-up restoration to detail the undercarriage would cost me at least another $30k... powder coated where applicable, etc.  Add the other $10k +/- I detailed I need to do in my former note, and I'm into it for another $40k +/- (probably more + than - with my perfectionist streak)... on top of the $30k already into it (purchase +restoration / mechanicals to date).  That would put my cost to $70k - $75k.

What's the real value add at that point? For me, not much... pride for sure, but no real functional added value.  My intent's to both maintain and enhance value in appearance and function as time moves on, maintaining original car (meaning using MB parts and staying true to the SN's design.  I've already compromised that with 1) Leather interior (maintaining right color/grain though), and 2) Exterior paint color, though I maintained & restored the engine bay at original MB color.... not much difference ... the new color is MB 702 which was introduced sometime after the W113's.

Some parts are becoming more and more dear to replace or obtain... some retain a standard & reasonable ("reasonable" considering) price increasing only by rate of inflation or close to it.  I held a $15k part in my hands from a 300SL yesterday... center instrument.... that is $15k if you can find one... next year it'll be $20k if not more.  The W113's don't have any such parts... and never will in the forseeable future (thru my kid's adult life into their twilight years)... there were simply too many mfg'erd so as restortion costs increase, more and more of the too expensive to restore 113's will end up as parts cars.  I intend mine to be one of those at the other end of the spectrum... not at the current $150k level variety, but appreciating at a greater rate than the norm.

I'm too practical to spend much more on a piece of transportation than it's worth in the open market.  Fortunately, we have a car that appreciates over time rather than depreciates --- IF and only IF it's maintained properly.... so adding to the level of restoration as appreciation allows is a feasible economic and rational (practical) approach. Sooner or later there's a transmission overhaul in the works... a rear-end probably, and other running gear just to maintain the car and still let it be driven.... things do break.  The fortunate aspect is that the W113's are able to be maintained as parts break... albeit at a cost, but still within some sense of reason for those of us who aren't able, or just don't aspire to the $400k variety classics.

I'm pegging my assumptions in an economic sense on the eventual increase in the gap between restored, maintained 113's and those that are just so-so.  Some of the so-so variety will end up being shipped overseas (Europe, Middle and Far East, South America) from the western US (no rust belt of relatively higher concentration of the W113's) for restoration... the others will deteriorate to parts car's level.  Some of the restorable ones will be poorly restored and hodge-podged together from a damaged one and parts cars... fewer and fewer will have matched numbers.

If I bring mine from it's current $30k cost basis to a $40k cost basis, it'll be worth circa $40k in value in the near term... but it will also then appreciate at a greater rate than the average 113.

I was appraised this week-end last of a "collector" here in CA that buys up all the 113's he can find at a reasonable price, unrestored or poorly or partially restored, and ships them all to Europe pre-sold.... so demand in Europe for the unrusted or little rusted US W113's is on the rise (or may be peaking?).  This guy isn't the only one doing this, I'm sure... so the available reasonably restorable 113's in the US are being reduced at an increasing rate.  Now... you can also bet your bottom dollar that some of those will be restored in Europe and placed for sale in the hottest market for them... and the US will get some of them back at an appreciated (restored) price.  

At which point the differentiation in prices of restored 113's will be based on the quality and completeness of the restoration... which in a nut-shell (other than the normal scams) will depend on the documentation of restoration process, and perhaps most importantly, the reputation of the restorer.  This is one reason I had my engine rebuilt by Metric (Long Block)... a clear advantage in valuation of those in the market for a restored 113.  For this same reason, if I have any restoration and mechanical's done, I use a restorer with a quality reputation in the classic SL's and use the same vendors he uses for those portions he farms out (paint, for example, wood parts, leather sources, etc).... or for restoration of things like injectors and injector pumps.... chrome work, etc.  At the very least I'm able to obtain quality work with low/no risk of being ripped off by a less than quality job which may "look" good on the surface but be sub-par in fact beneith the surface.

I still operate on the fundamental principle that you get what you pay for.... a "bargain" is in fact likely to be more of a rip-off than not.

I'd love to spend the $$ to do the frame-off nuts/bolts undercarriage restoration... but my wife has other priorities for the available $$... new kitchen for example, new Master Bath addition, trips to far off places... her driving around in an SL500 (looking and being in pristine shape all the time... so maintenance (& tires) don't come cheap).

I've attended a very few classic car shows where some 113's are shown... and for the most part I'd say mine's better by far in fundamental restoration and visible quality of it in details than over 3/4's of them (caveat... if I put new threshold chome strips on and replaced my slightly scarred beauty rings, and resilvered by passenger side visor mirror which has one single solitary vertical stripe in it, that is)... which chrome pieces are in process of purchase as I write this, in fact.  Yeah, I still have a left front tire that got worn on one side 'cause I neglected to get front end re-aligned after replacing a tie-rod and tie-rod end.... so there are definitely some "show" flaws, & I haven't repainted my wheels back to the body color (they're still black... painted over that color I don't know when but before I bought it).  On the other hand, all of these are relatively low cost to take care of and not a pressing priority since I'm not competing for show.

If/When I buy the '68/'70 280SL 4-Speed, right color (what color and color combo? don't know) I'm still looking for to restore, I'll opt for the frame-off undercarriage nuts/bolts restoration on it.... and if I can find another one, a 5 speed tranny for it.... and my wife can suck it up.  I'm hesitating though because I don't have room in my garage for more than my wife's SL500 and my 250SL.... plus 8 ft width of current work-space, so does that mean I have to build another addition to add another space to my garage 1st?

2nd - Micheal... ok... I understand... I wasn't looking at the mid-range end of the MB line when at the dealer, hence my mis-understanding.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport