Pagoda and MB Prices

[JamesL]

To add my two penneth worth...

Prices in the UK are stagnant, if not down. The big money is all going into 1960s Astons. Prices are now generally high teens to low 20s and for that you get a range of cars. Few go above that, and few, unless wrecks, go for less.

As for the €150k cars, I saw a couple this weekend: at Mechatronik and at the Classic Center in Fellbach (same restorer, btw...). The question that goes through my mind is (as with Longtooth), is it worth it? yes you drive the most stunningly beautiful, probably better than new Pagoda, but this really is rich boys toys - no economic return on that. I sat there thinking: I'd love to buy one of those "second hand" but as the restorer is top notch, the price will always remain at a premium. As big as now? I doubt it

And as with Longtooth, i could put cash into mine, but in doing so recognise that this is not an "investment" per se. The car is in good saleable nick at the upper end of the UK price range. Putting another  $10,000 into it on "fettling" is for my pleasure, and would not likely be recovered in any form in any reasonable time frame - especially as I don't want a show car but one I can drive.

Mechatronik are finishing a new "MSL" based on a RHD car. Coincidenatlly, they bought the base car last October through the same guy that helped me sell my SLK: indeed he was late to me as the Germans were late in.... anyways. They paid £10k ($18,000) for their base Pagoda for this "new" car. "Worst bodywork we have ever seen" was the comment I got from them last week. So just as there's a floor on prices, there seems to be a ceiling and right now it's about £30k/$55,000

[Vince Canepa]

Longtooth - Just to make things clear, mine is not a restored car.  All the work done on mine has been done by myself and it has never been subjected to a mega-buck project.  Our cars are similar in that we try to preserve rather than restore.  Preserved is a category that is gaining popularity (there is a special Preservation class at Pebble Beach now) but is not very well defined.  Does it mean don't touch anything over the life of the car just to preserve the car as it came from the factory?  Or does it mean keep the car in "as new" running conditon while preserving the cosmetics?  For me it is more the latter.  For example, rubber parts just deteriorate with time and must be renewed. I had the advantage of owning the car almost from new, so I was able to preserve much of it through careful maintenance.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[mdsalemi]

Longtooth,

My car is highly restored, in that I mean it was completely taken apart, every wear item changed/restored/replaced/replated or otherwise brought up to new or better condition.  There are a few exceptions, such as the differential and some other items which were untouched.  It was NOT done for "show" but to drive, and drive I do.  Yes I do show it and that's because the experts who looked at the car told me I should.  It only drives to shows, sometimes hundreds of miles away.  I don't own a trailer and can't afford to pay a hauler.

My car started from a bad way--bad body work, tons of rust, etc.  About as bad as you can get; the only reason why it was done was because it was a labor of love; the car has been in the family since 1969.  If you ever meet me at a show or gathering I can show you comprehensive before and after photos.

I never added up all the bills, and don't plan to, but I do not think there is anywhere near $100K in it.  So to think that somebody spent over $200K on a restoration is beyond my comprehension; I've been there and done that and don't understand how it can be done unless someone paid a lot more for labor (quite possibly) and started from a worse position (unlikely).  What's it worth?  Dunno.  But, with $65-$85K being a high-end target for well-restored 113's I think I could hit that target if it is for sale.  So, with a new E Class price, or the price of a new Jaguar XKR, an M5, or any other similar car, my car does not appear to be worth more then those.  This is why I can drive it with confidence--there are a lot more valuable cars out there as daily drivers.  Many cars new on the high end are exceeding $100K.

I still won't take it to a mall or leave it where I can't see it for very long, but I don't hesitate to drive it.  What was restored, repaired or repainted once can always be done again.

I should add that Vince Canepa is in a good way; he has had his car for a long time and by careful maintenance has preserved it.  Sadly many Pagodas suffered because of lack of maintenance, slipshod maintenance and downright bad work; many of us see this.  My car needed either complete restoration OR destruction/parting out.  Vince's, luckily, is one of the preserved ones.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Vince Canepa]

Michael - The car with the $235K restoration was at StarTech last year.  Pete Lesler and I were scratching our heads also.  It was a very nice car to be sure, and looked to be done correctly right down to the inspection marks, paint and plating finishes, etc. and it seemed to run perfectly (as it surely should!).  However, in many ways it was over restored.  Absolutely nothing was saved or restored if it could be replaced by new.  We came to the conclusion that the approach of "buy new" in every case drove the cost way up.  And to me, it just didn't seem worth it.

Also at StarTech was a 300 SEL 6.3 that had received a restoration valued at somewhere north of $100K.  In August of last year I was talking to Gernold at SL Tech and he was saying that restoration costs for a Pagoda were then exceeding $100K.  Quite a few shops are charging close to $100/hr. for labor these days (the Classic Center is one), and that is driving costs.  That is the problem because ultimately the pool of folks that will pay $100K + for a Pagoda has got to be tiny.  In my opinion, none of us should be in this hobby for profit, but it is always nice not to take a total bath if we decide to try something else.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[Benz Dr.]

Wow!
Facts and myths about 113's  101

fact - 113's are valuable
myth- all 113's are valuable
myth - matching numbers are important
fact - where you live drives market trends
fact - the market can expand or contract at any time
fact - the right or wrong color can affect the outcome of a sale
fact - people pay too much for cars every day
fact - a restored ( properly ) car is cheaper to buy in the long run
myth - 113's are classic cars
fact - 113's are milestone cars as well as antique cars
fact - some parts are NLA or soon will be
myth - a rare car is valuable
fact - a Gray-Dort is rare ( less than 100 left ) worth maybe 10K or about the same as a model T
fact - an unrestored car that drives really well is more fun than one that looks good.
myth - a MB convetable will get you lots of '' action ''
fact - a Vette might be a better choice for such things
myth - dealers will rip you off
fact - any dealer can rip you off
myth - indies can help you out, dealer or shop
fact - some are better than others
myth - I can find everything I need on the internet ( ebay )
fact - you can get screwed by shady crooks
fact - sites like this one are helping people fix their cars and providing a forum for people to share ideas
myth - MB car clubs are full of snobs and rich guys
fact - I haven't met any snobs. Maybe a few rich guys.


Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061

[mdsalemi]

Well said.  And, further validation why you are called "Dr."

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Bob G]

I appreciate the comments made by Michael and Longtooth. My 1968 280SL is a number 4/1/2 car and I recognize that it will take a long time to put back together as a nice weekend classic driver. What I have is the  car my father purchased new from Daimler-Benz overseas delivery program in April of 1968.
I have all his paper work from the factory, invoices , owners manuals ID metal warrenty card work shop manuals and tools kit and orginal jack.
I now every flaw the car has and am still willing to go to bat to try and make it as right as I can.
I know my car will never see a $100.000 restoration under my ownership unless I win the lottery, but I will be preserving a peice of my family that is important to me.
I have already invested a lot in parts waiting to be put on when the time and opportunity arrives for body and paint.  I intend to have fun with my 280SL and drive it because I enjoy the feeling of a 35 year old classic car and that it is the last of a breed of Mercedes that have that special feeling the I don't want to undue.
What I do know for sure is I have a mountain of work to be done and that some day it will be done to best of my abilities and thoses of others. I know that my investment" some may call it that"  keeps on going up in value, so I don't feel so bad looking at good exsamples. Only spurred on to keep doing what I am doing what I can to my 280SL.
For those reasons and the enjoyment of the hobbie and the marque I am a member of this group and forum.

Robert W Geco
Member #15

[Ed Cave]

The only comment the Dr. made that I think needs additional text...

"fact - an unrestored car that drives really well is more fun than one that looks good." this needs to continue with...."and drives like crap"

And I said crap because the forum would not let me say ****

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA


1971 280SL
1973 911S
2004 A4 3.0
2006 GS430

[Douglas]

I've got to think that as the price of these cars escalates there will be more of a premium placed on matching numbers. (And, consequently, more people "creating" matching numbers.)



Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[Longtooth]

I'm half-as..ed looking casually for a '68 - maybe '69 280sl manual so occcassionally look at OurSL's websigte for what's being newly offered.  I decided to kind of briefly analyze the offering by asking price, year, location, and whether auto or manual.

Here's my analysis, FWIW.  This is just a point in time snapshot from a single website... primarily it provides only some ratio's and gives a reasonable picture of average asking prices, without much rationale for what the shape of the car really is.... I don't count much on the descriptions unless the seller is a known entity (dealer in classic MB's with a known rep for example).  

28 280sl for sale, avg asking price $29.4k.  Only 4 (14%) are manual tranny's with avg. asking price $31.9k... an avg of ~$2.5k premium for the manual tranny version.  The breakdown by year and average asking price is

'68 - 6   for sale, avg ask $29,125
'69 - 6   for sale, avg ask $28,917         
'70 - 5 for sale, avg ask $32,458         
'71 - 11 for sale, avg ask $28,514

The range of asking prices is from $44.9k to $15.75k

Given the variation in prices overall, and within each model year, there's virtually zero significance to the average difference in asking prices by year relative to the overall average price.  In other words, there's no price premium for any one year over the other.  The primary determinate of prices is the shape of the car and degree of restoration described... but as I said, the actual degree of restoration or shape of the vehicle is probably not quite as described, and highly subjective in any event.

What's interesting is that nearly 1/3rd (11/28) are '71's, the other years having equal numbers for sale at 1/2 that of the number for '71's.  

Since MB only exported 520 280SL's built in '71, I suspect the larger number or probably near all the "'71's" for sale are built in late '70, but sold in the US during '71 by MBUSA ... that also being the year of the largest number of 280SL's exported during the period '68 - '71 being 4992.

Since each of the other model years available for sale on the OurSL site are only 1/2 that of the '71's, I suspect that owners of the '68's thru '70's are holding onto more of them than those sold in the US in '71.... since the number exported were 66% &  82% in '68 & '69 respectively of those exported in '70.  

I just did a quick look at Hemmings for 280SL's... here's the model year's for sale on that website.  Note that again "'71" has ~twice the number for sale as for '70 & '69...  and also that there's nearly nothing for sale prior to '69.
1967 (1)
1968 (2)
1969 (10)
1970 (14)
1971 (22)
I didn't do a full analysis of the listings, but the average prices for the few manual's for sale on Hemmings are well above the normal average asking price on the Hemming's site... though most on Hemmings are Dealer's and/or restoration shops, so it may be that investment in restorations are likely to be more probable on a manual than an automatic --- although the highest asking price shown on Hemmings is $65k for a fully restored '71 automatic --- go figure.

Continuing with the OurSL site evaluation:
   
Almost 50% are located in CA... standing to reason since 1) it's the most populous state, 2) OurSL's physical ownership is located in Northern CA (bay area), & 3) it's a status conscious, sunny driving location for the most part near year round in soCal.... though so is AZ, but AZ's a little TOO sunny/HOT for comfort. Also, it's a good bet that many of those for sale in CA were imported from east of the big muddy..., & it's a good bet that many of those were imported to CA for the purpose of being able to "locate" the car here for sale.... just as some of those for sale outside CA are advertised as being California car's only "briefly" owned out of state... in other words, for marketing purposes.  

Next was NY, then TX with 11% - 14%.... then each of the remaining 8 cars for sale in a different state.

46% 13 CA
14%  4 NY
11%  3 TX

4 each East & West of the big muddy.
CT
MA
MD
PA
CO
KS
AL
AZ

I didn't count a couple of units for sale in Europe/Far East.  I also couldn't find nor see from the pic's 2 units tranny's.... so I assumed both were automatic's.  The 4 manual's for sale definitely described them as "4 speed" or "manual" tranny's (or the VIN listed described them as "10"'s.

Let me hazard a guess now... that within a few years (less than 5), the number of units for sale in each model year will be approximately equal... i.e. there will be no more/less number for sale within the build years of the 280sl's than any other model year in contrast to the current offerings being double the other model years for the "71" model.  


Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

[bsimaz]

As a owner and driver with little resources I'd like to make a few comments about the "value" of the 113's.

Unless you have more money than you know what to do with, I know I would like to have a good driver.  I have  ~$7500 into my car.  Bought it wrecked and fixed it (mostly) myself.   I think it looks great and drive nice (not including my recent smoking incident).  I personally would not want a (or spend) $50,000 plus on a car.  I don't have the facility to store it or the means to take car of it the way it sould.  I like driving my car and would not hesitate to take it to the mall or to a movie/dinner with my wife.  That's what I have it for.  I would not like to come out after dinner and see a 'ding' in the door and say "well there goes my $20,000 paint job".  I would rather see these beauties taken care of by someone who has the resources.  Not that I don't care for mine, I do, I just don't want to feel like I'm throwing money away every time something happends to my car.

I'm hoping my 'best attempt' at fixing it will last for as long as I can drive it.  Then I'll let my son worry about it.

Bill Simaz
'66 230sl
Back on the Road

[ChrisInNashville]

I have very little mechanical inclination, but I am in banking, so my analysis tends toward the financial or economic side of the equation.

In Lexington Kentucky (heart of the American equine industry), they have a saying:  "What is the best way to make a little money in horses?....start with A LOT of money".

Whether art, coins, or cars, sometimes we get lucky and hit a "home run" on value.   With assets of this nature, IMHO the real key is whether you can enjoy what you have.  I don't want my house to be a museum where you can't touch anything...and I definately want my car to be driven.

Do I think I can sell my pagoda for what I have in it?  Maybe...I could definately get close.   If I lost money, would I do it over again...absolutely!   I'm paying for the honor of driving a car that I fell in love with when I was 10 years old (I'm 43 now)...and if that costs me a little money over time...well, it's still cheaper than a gambling habit.

My humble "two cents worth"

[Deurinck]

Hello,
I just registered, intended on getting some technical information and/or buying tips, out of this site, before upgrading from my MG Midget...
But I just couldn't resist joining this little discussion where people with more money than sense (sense=cents. Gottit?) spend outrageous amounts on pagoda's.
I can only compliment those that can afford to spend 100kUS$ and more on a restoration (or buying) of a pagoda, for being so smart to have this kind of money.
But maybe they should contemplate shipping the car to any cheap labour rate country for that restoration?  I mention this since I read an article in a classic car magazine, where a wellknown UK dealer/restorer declares that he shipped his cars to Poland (=monthly salaries of 500US$) for restoration.   I guess that there must be quite a few countries on this planet where one can find talented restorers that do not charge 100US$/hour?
I also remember reading that nowadays most Pagoda's are bought up and shipped to Europe, presold.
Funny. I have been surfin the internet over the last year rather intensely on the lookout for the right car.
Observations?  Here in Europe, Pagoda's worth having, start at 25.000euro=33.000US$, and go all the way up to 60kEuro and more (lottery winners please cue here).  There are cheaper ones around but we all know that we shouldn't really buy these...
The point is that, whatever the price range, most of these cars seem to be for sale for months. I have followed a particular nice restorerd example in my parents hometown that is for sale for over 2 years. Wonder how it would drive after 2 years in a show room...

Anyway, this discussion thread clearly points out that there are 2 worlds out there.
One where people can turn down 150KUS$ offers.[:0]
And one where owners cope/struggle with Mercedes' policy of increasing the price of their spare parts accross the board, instead of taking into consideration that the parts of out of production cars should be more accessible.
Maybe somebody at Mercedes should estimate how many more cars would be restored if they apply this policy?
But hey, that is just the ranting of an owner of a restored car valued at the price of the bumpers of a pagoda.
Have a great day.

Jan
1974 MG Midget RWA chrome bumper RHD
1984 Kawasaki GPZ900R
2001 Honda Civic 5 door(don't ask)

[paulr]

h