Author Topic: Non Ethanol Gas $  (Read 4694 times)

Alex D

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, NC, Cary
  • Posts: 306
Non Ethanol Gas $
« on: May 21, 2022, 13:07:25 »
Normally I fill up gas at about 1/4 left in the tank or slightly below, as I don't trust the accuracy of a 54 year fuel gage and do not want to find out the hard way. Normally I use 93 ethanol free, luckly enough to have several gas stations near by that have the 93 non ethanol on a regular basis, and it usually costs a few cents more per gallon than the 90+ octane premiums, so I figure it's worth the few extra cents for the 93 non ethanol.

Yesterday I got caught off guard with the fuel guage showing almost completely empty, I go fill up the tank, and almost fell over, $92 to fill up the with 93 non ethanol, not sure going to any 90+premium octans would have been any better.

Definately going change some of the driving habits for the summer, anyone else?

Alex
Alex D
1967 250 SL
Original 140K mi
181 Light Beige, with  112 Turquoise Interior

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 6653
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2022, 15:17:49 »
If you know where to look for it around here non-ethanol gas is readily available. After all this part of the state is the NASCAR capital of the world and there are a lot of people who think they are NASCAR drivers with older muscle cars. As an aside we are around North Carolina’s largest lake and the marine folks like to use non-ethanol gas. I think I only bought that once last year and it was more than a few pennies more than premium more like $.30 a gallon or $.40 a gallon more one gas was a lot less costly.

In the 22 years since restoration and about 20,000 miles of driving all but one tank of gas was with ethanol fuel. I had one fuel line go on me, the one that attaches to the outfeed of the fuel pump into the hard line at the rear of the car. It lasted about 15 years or so and cost about $20 to change…

My car has not demanded non-ethanol fuel but it does demand premium octane. So at 16 miles per gallon I’m probably not going to do a lot of driving, every day I see that the fuel prices are up!

But talk about changing driving habits, yesterday I was going to run to Lowe’s or Home Depot to get some things and instead went online to Amazon and it will all be delivered today.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4108
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2022, 15:47:10 »
I don't think I have ever used non-ethanol gas in my car (19 years and counting). Those of us in the US should not be hollering too much about gas prices. Just ask some of the folks in Europe...

Here in California, unleaded premium is about $6.30 a gallon. My last fill up for the 280 SL crested the $100 mark.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

JamesL

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, London, London
  • Posts: 3525
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2022, 16:03:06 »
Wow. Prices there have gone up. They’re up here too but we’re at about $8.35 a US gallon (3.78litres) but have been well over $7.50 for years.
That’s 10%ethanol, 95RON (US 91) Not sure I’ve seen non-ethanol for a while…

Premium - 93/5% is running about $8.60 a gallon near me.

 The difference in price is much lower than it used to be.



Edit for brain fart , forgot fx…

« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 07:00:43 by JamesL »
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

neelyrc

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, AL, Birmingham
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2022, 23:31:57 »
I filled up the 113 with 93 Octane non-ethanol about a week ago in Birmingham for USD 5.30 per US gallon.  Today I filled up the 107 with 93 Octane - 10 percent ethanol for USD 4.68 per gallon. Quite a premium for the ethanol free. 

I’m off to Italy in about two weeks and dreading the European fuel prices.  I use diesel in both my vehicles there and unlike the US, diesel is a few percent cheaper than gasoline. Still north of USD 7.00 per gallon!
Ralph

1969 280SL, 4 Speed Manual, Dark Olive (291H), Parchment Leather (256), Dark Green Soft Top (747)
1972 Mercedes-Benz 280SEL 4.5
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SL
2007 BMW 328xi (E90)
Italy
2004 Toyota HiLux D4D Pickup
2008 BMW 330xd Futura Coupe' (E92)

Jordan

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Jordan
  • Posts: 1395
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 01:32:48 »
Just returned from Germany and 10% ethanol gas was running 1.98 to 2.08 Euros per litre.  Belgium was a tad cheaper.  Had rented a 4 door Toyota Yaris Hybrid that was getting 60 mpg (4l/100km) combined city and highway driving.  Must have a small tank because a fill up at less than a quarter tank to full took 24 litres.
Marcus
66 230SL  Euro 4 speed

JamesL

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, London, London
  • Posts: 3525
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 07:02:25 »
Just returned from Germany and 10% ethanol gas was running 1.98 to 2.08 Euros per litre.  Belgium was a tad cheaper.  Had rented a 4 door Toyota Yaris Hybrid that was getting 60 mpg (4l/100km) combined city and highway driving.  Must have a small tank because a fill up at less than a quarter tank to full took 24 litres.

€2 is (currently) $2.10 = $7.90 a gallon (US)
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

AdelaidePagoda

  • Associate Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Australia, South Australia, Adelaide
  • Posts: 215
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2022, 09:36:30 »
Premium 98 petrol in Australia now is USD $6.30 a gallon which is an all time high. AUD$2.35/ litre. We have lower priced (octane) fuels although happy paying extra for perceived peace of mind.  Happy to have a small tank 230SL, helps spread the pain 😀
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 12:23:47 by AdelaidePagoda »
Dave Cleghorn
January 1964 230SL 4SPD Power Steering
050 050 Black Soft top, Red Leather interior
Italian delivered/ Germany/ Florida/ Boston/ Sydney/ Adelaide (5th owner)

Model S Tesla
Vespa

Alex D

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, NC, Cary
  • Posts: 306
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2022, 11:16:19 »
At $4.77 per gallon to fill up from a complete empty 21 gallon (80 liter) tank will cost you $100 USD.   
Alex D
1967 250 SL
Original 140K mi
181 Light Beige, with  112 Turquoise Interior

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2022, 13:17:06 »
I use ethanol free gas in all my "vintage" (sorry Dan!) vehicles. The presence of alcohol in conatct with some plastic fuel conveyance parts as well as the affinity for water bugs me and I try to avoid it. Ethanol free gas has always been more expensive than a "few cents" (more like close to a dollar), but as I am not driving these vehicles a lot, I can make do.
I used regular 10% ethanol high octane fuel in my Corvette ZR1 for the first 20 years of ownership and paid the price for having the fuel injectors replaced.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2022, 19:35:48 »
I hear this anti ethanol talk quite a bit but I don't buy into much of it. We still use some gasoline powered tractors and they all use regular unleaded with 10% ethanol. That's all they've ever used since it was changed over and I've seen zero problems. Sometimes I have to use regular out of my tank at home and my car will ping a bit but I've seen no other ill effects. I don't use stay-bill over the winter and my car always fires right up in the spring.

Regular is about 7.50 - 8.00 a US gallon here right now. When there is no gas available, or I have no money to buy it, then it will become a problem. I plan on using my car on a regular basis this summer because it gets over 50% better mileage than my pick up truck. The day I can no longer afford to put gas in my car is the day I longer need it.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Norm

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, TX, Wimberley
  • Posts: 315
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2022, 19:44:51 »
I have a choice between 10% ethanol 93 Octane and non-ethanol 90 Octane.  Price difference is minimal. 

I normally use a gasoline additive that stabilizes my fuel and adds a few octane points with the 10% ethanol 93 Octane and have not had any issues with performance.

https://www.liquidperformance.com/products/ethanol-equalizer

I'm thinking "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" (using the 10% ethanol fuel) 

Any thoughts on which I should choose?

Norm
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 19:52:07 by Norm »
Norm
1966 230SL 162H Blue-Grey
1994 Acura NSX Formula Red
2024 Acura RDX A-Spec, White Pearl
2016 Mercedes S63 AMG Coupe Obsidian Black
2011 Harley Davidson Super Glide Light / Dark Root Beer

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 6653
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2022, 20:05:21 »
…I used regular 10% ethanol high octane fuel in my Corvette ZR1 for the first 20 years of ownership and paid the price for having the fuel injectors replaced.

So, if no ethanol fuel is recommended by GM for your ZR-1, and you used E10 for 20 years, I’d say those are mighty robust fuel injectors. If that’s your only issue—after 20 years—you’re probably doing OK. Nothing lasts forever.

In all the years I had boats, always used regular E10. Never any issues but then again usage was light and the season short…

One of the local classic restoration shops always used Avgas on the trailer queen classics until they wouldn’t sell it except directly into a plane.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2022, 23:55:29 »
Mike, I don't know if GM ever recommended non-ethanol fuel for the ZR1. Maybe in 1990 the issue wasn't one. The negative effect of the alcohol on plastics and composites in the fuel system came out after a few years of use. I know owners with C4 Corvettes older than mine and they still have the original fuel injectors. The problem with water in the tank with ethanol fuel is a fact. I also heard stories of clogged up fuel filters. I had a plastic fuel elbow on my BMW K1600 come apart. BMW has a recall out for over a year now and cannot provide parts.
Those who had no problem with E-10 or E-15 were just plain lucky, IMO. Denying the problem is short sighted.
Enzyme additives help but you cannot take that stuff and add it to every fill-up. I do not know of any marine/boat filling station that sells ethanol gas.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Peter van Es

  • Honorary Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Netherlands, North Holland, Nederhorst Den Berg
  • Posts: 3990
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2022, 15:42:15 »
Yesterday I got caught off guard with the fuel guage showing almost completely empty, I go fill up the tank, and almost fell over, $92 to fill up the with 93 non ethanol, not sure going to any 90+premium octans would have been any better.

Here in Europe we have been paying prices like these for years... and we still drive to the European Event and back, some 2500-3000 km's for most of us. In most countries 95 octane fuel is E10 (i.e.a 10% Ethanol), and 98 octane is E5 (5% Ethanol). I also add Ethanol killer and usually buy 98 Octane. Which costs around € 2.40 per liter. A tank is 60 liters or so, i.e. € 144. At todays exchange rate around US$ 151. Given my car does around 1 : 8 (8 km/liter) when driving on motorways, this gives me a range of 462kms. So a complete European Event would cost about 7 tanks of fuel, i.e. $ 1057. And no, it won't stop us...

Peter
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

Alex D

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, NC, Cary
  • Posts: 306
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2022, 16:49:24 »
Early 230's had a 60 liter tank, then went to 80 liter tank, not sure when the exact change occurred. 
Alex D
1967 250 SL
Original 140K mi
181 Light Beige, with  112 Turquoise Interior

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2022, 21:36:25 »
Early 230's had a 60 liter tank, then went to 80 liter tank, not sure when the exact change occurred.

250SL from what I remember.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Peter van Es

  • Honorary Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Netherlands, North Holland, Nederhorst Den Berg
  • Posts: 3990
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2022, 08:24:59 »
Early 230's had a 60 liter tank, then went to 80 liter tank, not sure when the exact change occurred.

Yeah, but like you I never fully empty it. Most of my refills are at 60 liters.
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

JamesL

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, London, London
  • Posts: 3525
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2022, 09:31:22 »
Mine are at 40l as my gauge shows nearly empty when I’ve burned through a bit over 40l !
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 6653
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2022, 14:27:34 »
If the petrol you put in your tank is going to be used imminently, such as just one of the fuel fills you'll need for a drive, then putting non-ethanol fuel in is probably just wasteful. The fuel shortly to be used doesn't have enough time to absorb water of appreciable or damaging quantity.

If you are NOT going to use that fuel, and the car sits or is stored, then that is a different matter up to you. While some call it "good luck" I think losing one fuel pump hose after about 15 years isn't too bad. There's a large number of members here using only the fuel commonly available to them, and that's most likely E10. Many have had no issues over many years. This fuel hose was my only issue, and there's no saying that the leak at the crimp was caused by ethanol or its consequences. Leaks happen. Things don't last forever.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

Kevkeller

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • USA, HI, Honolulu
  • Posts: 365
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2022, 00:09:13 »
I started adding stabilizer to my fuel and shortly after the impeller in my fuel pump turned to a gray sludge.  I’d never seen anything like it in the previous 20 years. I did write about it here somewhere and Bob Youngman had said it would happen when the moisture in the fuel reached a certain percentage window.
I’ll never add it again.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 19:50:44 by Kevkeller »
1970 280 SL

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1718
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2022, 14:15:11 »
Ethanol laced fuel also eats away at the casting material commonly used in most carburetor, fuel pump and sending unit castings from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's.  Once the surfaces soaked with ethanol fuel start to disintegrate those fuel system components are junk.  Worse still, since the grit in the dissolving carbs is usually upstream of a fuel filter, any grit that makes its way through the jets does a job on rings and cylinder walls. 

This is not theory - I've seen these results with my own eyes on my own cars.  I started using ethanol-free fuel in all my collector cars on the advice of my farming neighbors who only put ethanol-free fuel in their farm equipment. Fortunately, I can find 87 octane at stations in our farming community and 87 and 93 at stations not too far away.  Since making the switch I haven't had to pull a single carb on any of my vehicles to clean clogged jets (the first sign that ethanol is eating away at the insides of a carb).
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2022, 17:15:23 »
Ethanol laced fuel also eats away at the casting material commonly used in most carburetor, fuel pump and sending unit castings from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's.  Once the surfaces soaked with ethanol fuel start to disintegrate those fuel system components are junk.  Worse still, since the grit in the dissolving carbs is usually upstream of a fuel filter, any grit that makes its way through the jets does a job on rings and cylinder walls. 

This is not theory - I've seen these results with my own eyes on my own cars.  I started using ethanol-free fuel in all my collector cars on the advice of my farming neighbors who only put ethanol-free fuel in their farm equipment. Fortunately, I can find 87 octane at stations in our farming community and 87 and 93 at stations not too far away.  Since making the switch I haven't had to pull a single carb on any of my vehicles to clean clogged jets (the first sign that ethanol is eating away at the insides of a carb).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm asking why I haven't seen those problems myself. Is there a different grade of 87 octane used in Canada? I don't know the answers to those questions.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1718
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2022, 23:40:06 »
I saved the low fuel sending unit I had to replace on my 1954 M.G. TF last spring.  It was NOS in the box when I installed it when I acquired the car in 1984. This means that it has spent most of its life immersed in ethanol fuel.  The sender stopped working four or five years ago and I finally got around to removing the tank and replacing the sending unit last spring and saved it to show my M.G. club friends.  I've been rearranging the garage this month and put the old eroded one in a "safe place" while moving things around.  As soon as I find it I'll take a photo and post it.  The damage is amazing.
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1718
Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2022, 02:20:22 »
I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm asking why I haven't seen those problems myself. Is there a different grade of 87 octane used in Canada? I don't know the answers to those questions.
Neither do I.  The farming community up in the mountains of Highland County, Virginia consists of small family-owned cattle and sheep farms that have mostly been in the family for generations.  The farm next door to me was in the same family from the 1730's until it was sold after the death of the last surviving male heir a couple of years ago. Most of my neighbors are operating equipment that their daddy or granddaddy bought decades ago.  They don't need new as long as they can keep the old stuff running so they have a pretty good handle on how to maintain old equipment and what to avoid doing as well.  Some have bought new equipment only to discover it didn't perform as well as their old stuff and got rid of it.  You're a farmer, Dan, so you can probably understand more than most what I am talking about.  Most newer (relatively speaking) equipment is diesel powered, but there are still a lot of old gasoline powered tractors around, and those guys uniformly swear by ethanol-free fuel.  There are only four gas stations in the whole county and two of them sell ethanol-free gas.  Only one sells diesel!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 11:27:40 by Mike Hughes »
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)