Author Topic: Non Ethanol Gas $  (Read 4836 times)

Alex D

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Non Ethanol Gas $
« on: May 21, 2022, 13:07:25 »
Normally I fill up gas at about 1/4 left in the tank or slightly below, as I don't trust the accuracy of a 54 year fuel gage and do not want to find out the hard way. Normally I use 93 ethanol free, luckly enough to have several gas stations near by that have the 93 non ethanol on a regular basis, and it usually costs a few cents more per gallon than the 90+ octane premiums, so I figure it's worth the few extra cents for the 93 non ethanol.

Yesterday I got caught off guard with the fuel guage showing almost completely empty, I go fill up the tank, and almost fell over, $92 to fill up the with 93 non ethanol, not sure going to any 90+premium octans would have been any better.

Definately going change some of the driving habits for the summer, anyone else?

Alex
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mdsalemi

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2022, 15:17:49 »
If you know where to look for it around here non-ethanol gas is readily available. After all this part of the state is the NASCAR capital of the world and there are a lot of people who think they are NASCAR drivers with older muscle cars. As an aside we are around North Carolina’s largest lake and the marine folks like to use non-ethanol gas. I think I only bought that once last year and it was more than a few pennies more than premium more like $.30 a gallon or $.40 a gallon more one gas was a lot less costly.

In the 22 years since restoration and about 20,000 miles of driving all but one tank of gas was with ethanol fuel. I had one fuel line go on me, the one that attaches to the outfeed of the fuel pump into the hard line at the rear of the car. It lasted about 15 years or so and cost about $20 to change…

My car has not demanded non-ethanol fuel but it does demand premium octane. So at 16 miles per gallon I’m probably not going to do a lot of driving, every day I see that the fuel prices are up!

But talk about changing driving habits, yesterday I was going to run to Lowe’s or Home Depot to get some things and instead went online to Amazon and it will all be delivered today.
Michael Salemi
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Jonny B

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2022, 15:47:10 »
I don't think I have ever used non-ethanol gas in my car (19 years and counting). Those of us in the US should not be hollering too much about gas prices. Just ask some of the folks in Europe...

Here in California, unleaded premium is about $6.30 a gallon. My last fill up for the 280 SL crested the $100 mark.
Jonny B
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JamesL

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2022, 16:03:06 »
Wow. Prices there have gone up. They’re up here too but we’re at about $8.35 a US gallon (3.78litres) but have been well over $7.50 for years.
That’s 10%ethanol, 95RON (US 91) Not sure I’ve seen non-ethanol for a while…

Premium - 93/5% is running about $8.60 a gallon near me.

 The difference in price is much lower than it used to be.



Edit for brain fart , forgot fx…

« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 07:00:43 by JamesL »
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neelyrc

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2022, 23:31:57 »
I filled up the 113 with 93 Octane non-ethanol about a week ago in Birmingham for USD 5.30 per US gallon.  Today I filled up the 107 with 93 Octane - 10 percent ethanol for USD 4.68 per gallon. Quite a premium for the ethanol free. 

I’m off to Italy in about two weeks and dreading the European fuel prices.  I use diesel in both my vehicles there and unlike the US, diesel is a few percent cheaper than gasoline. Still north of USD 7.00 per gallon!
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Jordan

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 01:32:48 »
Just returned from Germany and 10% ethanol gas was running 1.98 to 2.08 Euros per litre.  Belgium was a tad cheaper.  Had rented a 4 door Toyota Yaris Hybrid that was getting 60 mpg (4l/100km) combined city and highway driving.  Must have a small tank because a fill up at less than a quarter tank to full took 24 litres.
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JamesL

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 07:02:25 »
Just returned from Germany and 10% ethanol gas was running 1.98 to 2.08 Euros per litre.  Belgium was a tad cheaper.  Had rented a 4 door Toyota Yaris Hybrid that was getting 60 mpg (4l/100km) combined city and highway driving.  Must have a small tank because a fill up at less than a quarter tank to full took 24 litres.

€2 is (currently) $2.10 = $7.90 a gallon (US)
James L
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AdelaidePagoda

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2022, 09:36:30 »
Premium 98 petrol in Australia now is USD $6.30 a gallon which is an all time high. AUD$2.35/ litre. We have lower priced (octane) fuels although happy paying extra for perceived peace of mind.  Happy to have a small tank 230SL, helps spread the pain 😀
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 12:23:47 by AdelaidePagoda »
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Alex D

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2022, 11:16:19 »
At $4.77 per gallon to fill up from a complete empty 21 gallon (80 liter) tank will cost you $100 USD.   
Alex D
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MikeSimon

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2022, 13:17:06 »
I use ethanol free gas in all my "vintage" (sorry Dan!) vehicles. The presence of alcohol in conatct with some plastic fuel conveyance parts as well as the affinity for water bugs me and I try to avoid it. Ethanol free gas has always been more expensive than a "few cents" (more like close to a dollar), but as I am not driving these vehicles a lot, I can make do.
I used regular 10% ethanol high octane fuel in my Corvette ZR1 for the first 20 years of ownership and paid the price for having the fuel injectors replaced.
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2022, 19:35:48 »
I hear this anti ethanol talk quite a bit but I don't buy into much of it. We still use some gasoline powered tractors and they all use regular unleaded with 10% ethanol. That's all they've ever used since it was changed over and I've seen zero problems. Sometimes I have to use regular out of my tank at home and my car will ping a bit but I've seen no other ill effects. I don't use stay-bill over the winter and my car always fires right up in the spring.

Regular is about 7.50 - 8.00 a US gallon here right now. When there is no gas available, or I have no money to buy it, then it will become a problem. I plan on using my car on a regular basis this summer because it gets over 50% better mileage than my pick up truck. The day I can no longer afford to put gas in my car is the day I longer need it.
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Norm

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2022, 19:44:51 »
I have a choice between 10% ethanol 93 Octane and non-ethanol 90 Octane.  Price difference is minimal. 

I normally use a gasoline additive that stabilizes my fuel and adds a few octane points with the 10% ethanol 93 Octane and have not had any issues with performance.

https://www.liquidperformance.com/products/ethanol-equalizer

I'm thinking "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" (using the 10% ethanol fuel) 

Any thoughts on which I should choose?

Norm
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 19:52:07 by Norm »
Norm
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mdsalemi

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2022, 20:05:21 »
…I used regular 10% ethanol high octane fuel in my Corvette ZR1 for the first 20 years of ownership and paid the price for having the fuel injectors replaced.

So, if no ethanol fuel is recommended by GM for your ZR-1, and you used E10 for 20 years, I’d say those are mighty robust fuel injectors. If that’s your only issue—after 20 years—you’re probably doing OK. Nothing lasts forever.

In all the years I had boats, always used regular E10. Never any issues but then again usage was light and the season short…

One of the local classic restoration shops always used Avgas on the trailer queen classics until they wouldn’t sell it except directly into a plane.
Michael Salemi
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MikeSimon

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2022, 23:55:29 »
Mike, I don't know if GM ever recommended non-ethanol fuel for the ZR1. Maybe in 1990 the issue wasn't one. The negative effect of the alcohol on plastics and composites in the fuel system came out after a few years of use. I know owners with C4 Corvettes older than mine and they still have the original fuel injectors. The problem with water in the tank with ethanol fuel is a fact. I also heard stories of clogged up fuel filters. I had a plastic fuel elbow on my BMW K1600 come apart. BMW has a recall out for over a year now and cannot provide parts.
Those who had no problem with E-10 or E-15 were just plain lucky, IMO. Denying the problem is short sighted.
Enzyme additives help but you cannot take that stuff and add it to every fill-up. I do not know of any marine/boat filling station that sells ethanol gas.
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Peter van Es

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2022, 15:42:15 »
Yesterday I got caught off guard with the fuel guage showing almost completely empty, I go fill up the tank, and almost fell over, $92 to fill up the with 93 non ethanol, not sure going to any 90+premium octans would have been any better.

Here in Europe we have been paying prices like these for years... and we still drive to the European Event and back, some 2500-3000 km's for most of us. In most countries 95 octane fuel is E10 (i.e.a 10% Ethanol), and 98 octane is E5 (5% Ethanol). I also add Ethanol killer and usually buy 98 Octane. Which costs around € 2.40 per liter. A tank is 60 liters or so, i.e. € 144. At todays exchange rate around US$ 151. Given my car does around 1 : 8 (8 km/liter) when driving on motorways, this gives me a range of 462kms. So a complete European Event would cost about 7 tanks of fuel, i.e. $ 1057. And no, it won't stop us...

Peter
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Alex D

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2022, 16:49:24 »
Early 230's had a 60 liter tank, then went to 80 liter tank, not sure when the exact change occurred. 
Alex D
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2022, 21:36:25 »
Early 230's had a 60 liter tank, then went to 80 liter tank, not sure when the exact change occurred.

250SL from what I remember.
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Peter van Es

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2022, 08:24:59 »
Early 230's had a 60 liter tank, then went to 80 liter tank, not sure when the exact change occurred.

Yeah, but like you I never fully empty it. Most of my refills are at 60 liters.
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JamesL

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2022, 09:31:22 »
Mine are at 40l as my gauge shows nearly empty when I’ve burned through a bit over 40l !
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mdsalemi

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2022, 14:27:34 »
If the petrol you put in your tank is going to be used imminently, such as just one of the fuel fills you'll need for a drive, then putting non-ethanol fuel in is probably just wasteful. The fuel shortly to be used doesn't have enough time to absorb water of appreciable or damaging quantity.

If you are NOT going to use that fuel, and the car sits or is stored, then that is a different matter up to you. While some call it "good luck" I think losing one fuel pump hose after about 15 years isn't too bad. There's a large number of members here using only the fuel commonly available to them, and that's most likely E10. Many have had no issues over many years. This fuel hose was my only issue, and there's no saying that the leak at the crimp was caused by ethanol or its consequences. Leaks happen. Things don't last forever.
Michael Salemi
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Kevkeller

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2022, 00:09:13 »
I started adding stabilizer to my fuel and shortly after the impeller in my fuel pump turned to a gray sludge.  I’d never seen anything like it in the previous 20 years. I did write about it here somewhere and Bob Youngman had said it would happen when the moisture in the fuel reached a certain percentage window.
I’ll never add it again.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 19:50:44 by Kevkeller »
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2022, 14:15:11 »
Ethanol laced fuel also eats away at the casting material commonly used in most carburetor, fuel pump and sending unit castings from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's.  Once the surfaces soaked with ethanol fuel start to disintegrate those fuel system components are junk.  Worse still, since the grit in the dissolving carbs is usually upstream of a fuel filter, any grit that makes its way through the jets does a job on rings and cylinder walls. 

This is not theory - I've seen these results with my own eyes on my own cars.  I started using ethanol-free fuel in all my collector cars on the advice of my farming neighbors who only put ethanol-free fuel in their farm equipment. Fortunately, I can find 87 octane at stations in our farming community and 87 and 93 at stations not too far away.  Since making the switch I haven't had to pull a single carb on any of my vehicles to clean clogged jets (the first sign that ethanol is eating away at the insides of a carb).
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2022, 17:15:23 »
Ethanol laced fuel also eats away at the casting material commonly used in most carburetor, fuel pump and sending unit castings from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's.  Once the surfaces soaked with ethanol fuel start to disintegrate those fuel system components are junk.  Worse still, since the grit in the dissolving carbs is usually upstream of a fuel filter, any grit that makes its way through the jets does a job on rings and cylinder walls. 

This is not theory - I've seen these results with my own eyes on my own cars.  I started using ethanol-free fuel in all my collector cars on the advice of my farming neighbors who only put ethanol-free fuel in their farm equipment. Fortunately, I can find 87 octane at stations in our farming community and 87 and 93 at stations not too far away.  Since making the switch I haven't had to pull a single carb on any of my vehicles to clean clogged jets (the first sign that ethanol is eating away at the insides of a carb).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm asking why I haven't seen those problems myself. Is there a different grade of 87 octane used in Canada? I don't know the answers to those questions.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2022, 23:40:06 »
I saved the low fuel sending unit I had to replace on my 1954 M.G. TF last spring.  It was NOS in the box when I installed it when I acquired the car in 1984. This means that it has spent most of its life immersed in ethanol fuel.  The sender stopped working four or five years ago and I finally got around to removing the tank and replacing the sending unit last spring and saved it to show my M.G. club friends.  I've been rearranging the garage this month and put the old eroded one in a "safe place" while moving things around.  As soon as I find it I'll take a photo and post it.  The damage is amazing.
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2022, 02:20:22 »
I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm asking why I haven't seen those problems myself. Is there a different grade of 87 octane used in Canada? I don't know the answers to those questions.
Neither do I.  The farming community up in the mountains of Highland County, Virginia consists of small family-owned cattle and sheep farms that have mostly been in the family for generations.  The farm next door to me was in the same family from the 1730's until it was sold after the death of the last surviving male heir a couple of years ago. Most of my neighbors are operating equipment that their daddy or granddaddy bought decades ago.  They don't need new as long as they can keep the old stuff running so they have a pretty good handle on how to maintain old equipment and what to avoid doing as well.  Some have bought new equipment only to discover it didn't perform as well as their old stuff and got rid of it.  You're a farmer, Dan, so you can probably understand more than most what I am talking about.  Most newer (relatively speaking) equipment is diesel powered, but there are still a lot of old gasoline powered tractors around, and those guys uniformly swear by ethanol-free fuel.  There are only four gas stations in the whole county and two of them sell ethanol-free gas.  Only one sells diesel!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 11:27:40 by Mike Hughes »
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2022, 04:11:39 »
I only have one gasoline powered tractor that we still use a bit - a 1965 430 Case. My father bought it new when I was still in grade school. We use farm gas ( 87 ) and it always starts and seems to run well enough.

We have become experts at keeping old stuff running. My combine is 40 years old with 5,000 + hours on it. As long as it costs less to keep running than to have it custom done I'll keep running it. 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

mdsalemi

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2022, 14:30:34 »
It was NOS in the box when I installed it when I acquired the car in 1984.

Thirty three years of service life out of an old British NOS part is probably not something to complain much about. How old was the unit when it was installed in 1984?

I hate to disillusion anyone here, but metals such as zinc, pot metal and similar non-ferrous metals can degrade over time regardless of whether or not the product is used or even installed. For "pure" zinc castings/die castings, the culprit is well known and documented as a phenomenon known as "Zinc Pest." Look it up. In a nutshell the slightest amount of impurities in the metallurgy of the zinc can cause this. In pot metal, all bets are off. There's no fixed alloy for pot metal, and the impurities in zinc pest are rampant in pot metal.

Similar kinds of things can happen in more complex castings/forgings with other non-ferrous metals. Impurities in aluminum castings cause all kinds of problems. Some of these cylinder head castings come from what I call third world countries where the quality control isn't up to snuff, and the actual manufacturer doesn't really give a hoot. I'm reminded of a story my daughter's former soccer coach (a PHD in metallurgy for Ford Motor) told me about a container of aluminum cylinder head castings from you know where, that set off radiation detectors at the port of entry. Investigation led to the realization that the caster in this country put some spent fuel rods in the mix and thought they could get away with it.

In another story about cylinder heads, I'm reminded of the fabulous tour of the Roush Racing rebuild facility in Livonia, Michigan, where Jack Roush's team developed a process to totally rebuild cylinder heads from the legendary Rolls-Royce/Packard V12 engines that powered the P-51 Mustang along with many racing boats in later years. We were told in the tour that the average live of an engine in that plane was measured in hours. We were told seven, but records may indicate higher. When pulled off a failed engine the damage to the cylinder head was like rotted teeth and Swiss cheese. The process involved machining out the bad metal, filling it in while on an ultrasonic table, and then re-machining. The deep pocketed Jack Roush went through years of effort and mountains of paperwork to get the process certified by the FAA as airworthy. Many cylinder heads formerly used as door stops were salvaged for use in Merlin engines. https://www.roushaviation.com. That damage to the aluminum cylinder head was due to bad metallurgy along with very hard operating characteristics.

In my life, I've run into plenty of crumbling light metal parts, that are as fragile as all get out. "Punky" my dad used to say. Many of these parts never saw any kind of fuel, they just didn't age well because the metallurgy was prone to this.

Ethanol or not, even metal is not forever.
Michael Salemi
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2022, 16:13:59 »
Thirty three years of service life out of an old British NOS part is probably not something to complain much about. How old was the unit when it was installed in 1984?

Can't say.  This was back in the days when most British car parts suppliers were still selling NOS parts acquired from dealer parts departments and other sources. Most of those parts are now long gone and there has been a consolidation of British car parts suppliers as well.  In a scenario familiar to many, suppliers are getting replacement parts made, mostly in Asia, some of which fit and work properly, and some of which don't.  Many (expensive!) chrome plated parts are crap:  pitting, peeling, or developing rust spots within months.

The replacement fuel sender I installed last spring is a case in point:  When I filled the tank it leaked to the tune of several drips per hour.  I had to drain the tank to below the level of the sender to stop the drips.  I've had it out and tried several of both the standard (paper) and upgraded (fuel resistant rubber) gaskets on offer from several vendors. I finally found a standard paper gasket, which combined with liberal application of blue Hylomar, has reduced the drip to maybe once a week at this point.  This is not a British car forum, but I am open to suggestions from anyone here about finding fuel resistant gasket material that I can use to make my own gasket, as I think that the holes provided for the six retaining screws in all the ready-made gaskets available these days are too large in diameter for an effective seal around the threads of the screws.
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
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roymil

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2022, 17:32:13 »
I'd suggest making your gasket from Viton and lightly coating both sides with Permatex fuel resistant gasket dressing.   It doesn't completely harden and should tolerate the fuel.  I'd agree about not depending on the screw holes sealing well.  It should be the flat surfaces that make the seal. 
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

mdsalemi

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Re: Non Ethanol Gas $
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2022, 11:22:31 »
…I'd suggest making your gasket from Viton and lightly coating both sides with Permatex fuel resistant gasket dressing…

https://www.gasketing.net/viton.php
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid