Author Topic: Pagoda World 30  (Read 4494 times)

Paul

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2022, 16:31:15 »
I just got mine in France, Great many thanks
280SL 1970

Rolf-Dieter

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2022, 00:48:38 »
Got mine this morning many thanks to all that made this happen. Great issue as always!

Rolf-Dieter
DD 2011 SL 63 AMG and my 69 Pagoda 280 SL

AdelaidePagoda

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2022, 10:38:51 »
Any thoughts on going fully electronic and saving costs on printing, postage and ad hoc mailing issues?

Maybe an ‘opt out’ option for those who would prefer the instant electronic version vs. paper copy.

Likely a wildly unpopular opinion. More and more companies are thinking of their ESG responsibilities.

Dave Cleghorn
1964 230SL 4SPD Power Steering
050 050 Black Soft top, Red Leather interior
Italian delivered/ Germany/ Florida/ Boston/ Sydney/ Adelaide (5th owner)

Model S Tesla
Vespa

DaveB

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2022, 11:46:09 »
Personally, that would suit me..

Any thoughts on going fully electronic and saving costs on printing, postage and ad hoc mailing issues?
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

Cees Klumper

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2022, 12:17:30 »
ESG = Environmental, Social, and Governance

Attention for an organization's impact on societies, as well as for how it governs itself.
(Those two things aren't really related by the way.)
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic cream white
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1990 Ford Bronco II 2WD colonial white

mdsalemi

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2022, 15:09:33 »
Any thoughts on going fully electronic and saving costs on printing, postage and ad hoc mailing issues?
Maybe an ‘opt out’ option for those who would prefer the instant electronic version vs. paper copy.
Likely a wildly unpopular opinion. More and more companies are thinking of their ESG responsibilities.

As a club, we have two classifications of assets: tangible and intangible. The intangible assets are our members. The tangible assets are our forum (and its content); our magazine (and its content); our technical manual (integral to the forum), and our accounts (PayPal and Bank) which hold our funds in US dollars.

We protect out accounts by holding them in secure places: banks and PayPal, where only those so authorized have access, and only legitimate approved expenditures are made.
We protect our forum by requiring membership for many things. We also have a number of "fortifications" to prevent hacking, etc. in place.
We protect our technical manual by requiring full paid membership for access.
We protect our magazine by printing it on paper and distributing it only to full members.

While it may be a "green" thing (for lack of a better word) to do by NOT distributing the magazine on paper, once we distribute it on PDF, we no longer have any control over it. One PDF emailed to one person can quickly work its way to hundreds or thousands of copies going all around the world to people who have not paid for the privilege of reading it or receiving it. The protection is lost and gone. There is no way to control access to a PDF in any meaningful way. The best was to control this is by printing it ONLY on paper.

Further to this, IF we were to change the magazine from paper to electronic format, and distribute it by email, (we have no plans to do so) we would still have the same problem we have right this moment, just with a twist. While the number of members falling into this category is few, they make it very challenging for those board members serving them; these few members don't go to the forums, they don't get their emails, they don't read their emails, they provide email addresses they don't use, and they don't keep their addresses (physical and electronic) up to date. The challenges we face are caused by any one or more of those things. All it takes is one to throw a wrench in the works.

The mail problem with PW #30 had nothing to do with the members. It was a printer or postal problem for which we will probably not know the answer why more than 300 copies were not delivered around the world. Nonetheless, with little regard for cost, we decided as a board to reprint for those members who didn't receive #30. We endeavored, with a generous timeline, to collect information on who did not get it. At the end of the period (plus a few days allowance for stragglers), we ordered a secondary print run. We had them all mailed out, and they all went out on April 27th.

Meanwhile, even after the process was seeming finished on our end, more and more requests for #30 kept coming. Problem was, we quickly exhausted them. There are no more copies.

So, in the electronic world, regardless of how we chose to make it available, if the past is indicative of the future, we'd have a few members unable to download, unable to get the email, unable to open it, or the same reasons why they never got the notices about the PW #30 issue. We're still taking time to deal with it, though the last copies of #30 were hand processed by us yesterday and will be in today's mail.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
2019 Ford Escape Hybrid
2021 Ford Bronco Sport Outer Banks

AndrewB

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2022, 15:52:07 »
Still waiting for my copy in Surrey, U.K. hopefully it will arrive soon
1969 280SL
1970 280SL (undergoing restoration)
1971 Range Rover Suffix A Kingsley Restomod
1987 500SL
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AdelaidePagoda

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2022, 03:38:18 »
Michael, thanks for taking the time to richly detail for myself and others, the strong Board asset protection rationale for not doing down the electronic PDF path.
Delighted to hear there are additional fortifications to protect all members as I figured if anyone wanted a database on Pagoda owners, then this was the site to access!
The immense passion, governance and knowledge within this group continues to astound me.

Dave Cleghorn
1964 230SL 4SPD Power Steering
050 050 Black Soft top, Red Leather interior
Italian delivered/ Germany/ Florida/ Boston/ Sydney/ Adelaide (5th owner)

Model S Tesla
Vespa

gtait

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2022, 04:38:14 »
I just received my copy.  West coast of Canada

Thanks

Gil
Gil
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DaveB

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2022, 10:12:06 »
Personally I wouldn’t mind at all if the pdf was read by people who haven’t paid a membership. Why should that matter?
Of course if the authors of the content wish to restrict access that should be respected. But do they?
DaveB
'65 US 230sl 4-speed, DB190

yves

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2022, 12:48:46 »
Got mine this morning.....Thank's  ;)
Happy owner of a 69 blue 280SL ,  63 FHC  osb E-type , 55 FHC XK 140 to be restored...

Cees Klumper

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2022, 13:15:34 »
Personally I wouldn’t mind at all if the pdf was read by people who haven’t paid a membership. Why should that matter?
Of course if the authors of the content wish to restrict access that should be respected. But do they?

There's also nothing keeping anyone from scanning into pdf any issue and uploading to the interwebs ...
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic cream white
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3 rosso corsa "Luigi"
1990 Ford Bronco II 2WD colonial white

mdsalemi

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2022, 15:25:24 »
Personally I wouldn’t mind at all if the pdf was read by people who haven’t paid a membership. Why should that matter?
Of course if the authors of the content wish to restrict access that should be respected. But do they?

Right. The goal is NOT to prevent anyone from READING the magazine, in fact quite the opposite. What we'd all enjoy is a stranger reading someone else's magazine and then based upon the content and what they read, to decide to join.

Right now there is an enormous amount of control by virtue of having a paper magazine. The paper magazine by itself has value, as evidenced by the fact that people buy (until we've run out, of course) back issues. Further, we sold an enormous number of copies of the magazine in book form!

If we were to cease printing on paper, and only do a PDF, we would lose that control, and thus really lose the asset. Would you want paper money that anyone could copy? Would you want to put your money in a bank for which there is no vault or protection? No, I don't think so. In fact so many members here value their security and privacy that we don't even know all of their real names. We are going to continue to protect our assets for the mutual benefit of all members of the club.

For many extremely large publishers, there are some obscure and very technical means of protecting digital assets with "pay walls" along with other protections such as disabling the print function, disabling the ability to copy and forward, etc. That is beyond our small club to pay for or integrate.

There's also nothing keeping anyone from scanning into pdf any issue and uploading to the interwebs ...

Yes that's true. But this is a non-trivial task. I've seen scans and copies people make of things and some are laughably awful quality. If you decided to invest in a good scanner, or hire someone with one, and scan any issue into PDF form, do a proper de-screening, assemble the pages into a usable PDF that you would then distribute and upload to the "interweb" then...

...you'd be guilty of intellectual property theft, and copyright infringement.  Our works are copyrighted works subject to protection under U.S. Criminal Code provisions such as those in Title 18, U.S. Code, Sections 2319, 2319A, and 2319B.

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

NOW before you get frightened, does that mean you can't take your magazine or Pagoda Notes, keep the "originals" in a safe place, and make copies to have in your car or garage? Of course not! Along with this onerous sounding things such as copyright infringement, intellectual property theft, etc. we also have the "fair use doctrine". Copying what you've paid for, for your own use, is fair use.

Want to help prevent a break in at your home? Lock your front door. We're doing that with our assets by keeping them analog!

« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 15:31:06 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
2019 Ford Escape Hybrid
2021 Ford Bronco Sport Outer Banks

Cees Klumper

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2022, 17:02:31 »
Yeah I know all that Michael, after all I have been heading up fraud investigation departments for more than a decade now. Fact remains that it would be very easy for this to happen, and our protection against it is rather weak.

Also, looking at our bylaws, I note some of our objectives (excerpts relevant to the sharing of information):

"The purpose of the Group shall be:
... to increase knowledge and appreciation and maintain the historical heritage of Mercedes Benz SL automobiles, particularly the W113 chassis cars ;
to foster sharing of information ... among owners and admirers of these cars. Specifically, the Group ... builds a community of members around the world ... where people meet and exchange knowledge, expertise; Supports the restoration, preservation and operation of Mercedes-Benz W113 automobiles through the accumulation, enhancement and distribution of relevant information among owners, enthusiasts, and service providers to these cars"

So making information as widely available as possible is our specific aim. Charging for that information or limiting its availability is (only) justified if we need the funds to operate, in my personal opinion, as it goes counter to our stated purpose. Something to think about.

Ok back to regular programming!
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic cream white
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3 rosso corsa "Luigi"
1990 Ford Bronco II 2WD colonial white

Rolf-Dieter

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2022, 17:44:25 »
Cees,

Before we go back to back to regular programming  :) can I ask you  (BDW I love that statement it made me smile).

I am in my mid 80s Cees and find the font size rather small of our PW magazines as well as the PW Book 1 and 2.

I have a very good scanner and if I was to scan an article of our PW magazine for my own use to read at a enlaged 27 inch Apple monitor would I be breaking a law?

Must I delete the PDF file from my network after I read it?

I value your opinion since you have a good background in this field.

Dieter

PS. We do have PW Issue 7 available in PDF format in our "Membership" area, it is available to anyone that enters our website from sl113.org then scroll down to Membership open it the PW issue 7 is then listed under Full Membership. One of the articles is "Data Cards" that we share with anyone around the world free of charge.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 17:53:05 by Rolf-Dieter »
DD 2011 SL 63 AMG and my 69 Pagoda 280 SL

Cees Klumper

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2022, 21:23:40 »
Hey Dieter, I think as Michael said, if you make a copy (I would think that includes an enlarged copy) for your own use that should be just fine.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic cream white
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3 rosso corsa "Luigi"
1990 Ford Bronco II 2WD colonial white

Rolf-Dieter

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2022, 00:29:47 »
Thanks Cees, that is what I thought too, afterall, I paid for the original :)

Dieter
DD 2011 SL 63 AMG and my 69 Pagoda 280 SL

Peter van Es

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2022, 11:07:00 »
Regardless of our by-laws, we have a Board of Directors, and an Audit Committee. The Board of Directors is selected by election by all full members. It consists of (unpaid) volunteers. As does the Audit Committee.

The Board of Directors frequently re-evaluates the policy of our publications. And sometimes changes that policy. So Pagoda Notes is a restricted PDF download, where all current and back issues are available to all Full Members. The Technical Manual has recently become restricted in access to Full Members, leading to a large increase in membership. I'll readily admit that I was against doing this, as I felt that open access to the Technical Manual through search engines would lead to people finding us, and then ultimately becoming members. I stand corrected, as the decision taken once implemented clearly increased our membership without reducing new registrations.

The distribution of Pagoda World is reviewed regularly by the Board of Directors. Each time they reach the conclusion that despite the cost, the environmental impact, people still appreciate a paper copy of PW, with good quality printing to do justice to the excellent photographs (and no, a scanned copy will never be as good). And while all full members get PW, not all access the forum, the Technical Manual or even their copy of Pagoda Notes, even though I mail a notification each and every time.

As a club we organise events. These are written up in PW. They show we are a real community, not just a website. We hope to enthuse members to join in, and we hope to get members to volunteer to take on Board roles, write articles, submit photographs. And to look up other members when they are travelling, and make friends.

If you feel strongly about issuing PW as a PDF, there is a simple way:
  • volunteer for the Board
  • convince the other Board members that issuing PW as a PDF is a good thing
  • if step 2 fails, get other people who think like you to volunteer also until you have a Board majority

Peter
1970 280SL. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

mazmonza

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2022, 06:06:32 »
Mine has arrived, Ash and Nick hopefully you have yours now.

Maurice
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1991 300ce-24 coupe Sportline
1962 Lambretta TV175/ RB20
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lagolag

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2022, 16:49:06 »
I did expect to see no 30 when I came back home to Sweden yesterday (Mai 21) after two weeks In Italy but unfortunately not, I don’t know if any other in Sweden got there copy.
Regards Lars
230SL 1967 since July 2021
SL55 AMG 2003 since July 2008
Suzuki Cappuccino 1995 since May 2006

Jonny B

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2022, 22:15:46 »
Lars,

I am sorry to report that we don't have any more copies of PW 30.

As Michael Salemi has noted earlier in this string we got responses from the request for "Who is missing an issue?" and got a reprint of the magazine. Once those we sent out, we got further response, and had ordered only a few beyond those that responded and sent those out individually. After that was depleted, I had a few copies left from the published (from the first printing) and got more "I did not receive one" notes. Those have now been sent out. My inventory is gone.

We do not plan to reprint the magazine individually.

The only path now is to wait for the book reprint of PW 21 through 30. We hope to do that in a year or so's time.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904

lagolag

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2022, 18:28:47 »
The reason I wrote is that I did respond to ”Who is missing an issue” and thought it is good to know that it hasn't worked the second time to get the no 30 issue.
Am I the only Swede that still miss issue 30?
Regards Lars
230SL 1967 since July 2021
SL55 AMG 2003 since July 2008
Suzuki Cappuccino 1995 since May 2006

star63

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2022, 19:47:20 »
Hej Lars,

Don't know about all the Swedes but here is one Finn still waiting for an issue  ;D
Petri
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Finland

mdsalemi

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2022, 20:00:18 »
Interjecting here...

IF YOU properly responded to JonnyB's request about whether you did NOT receive PW #30 at the time the inquiry was sent out, they your duplicate copy was sent, mail date of April 27. If you did not receive PS #30 and you did NOT respond to the inquiry, we do not have any more to send you.

I can tell you from the book project that we have had issues with mail going to Sweden.

If PW #30, second printing has not arrived, I would say for certain this time, it is your local postal service. We had a mix of both USA and International in the re-print and re-mail, and many reported that they received them. That tells us they made it properly into the postal system.

Our guess was that a number of them from the first printing did not...
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
2019 Ford Escape Hybrid
2021 Ford Bronco Sport Outer Banks

Garry

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Re: Pagoda World 30
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2022, 21:45:41 »
Still waiting for second PW30 here in Australia as well. Did respond to Jon’s request so think the mail is just super slow out of the US at the moment, or should say, as always.  ;D   Ordered something else from the US at same time and also waiting for that.


Garry



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