Author Topic: Engine oil  (Read 1038 times)

stickandrudderman

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, England, Richmond
  • Posts: 2402
    • http://www.colinferns.com
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2021, 09:45:47 »
We use 10/40 on all of our customers' engines and have had no complaints or problems thus far.
We have rebuilt plenty of engines that others have been unsuccesful in rebuilding and many of them have covered many thousands of miles since without issue.

Shvegel

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Cleveland Heights
  • Posts: 2752
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2021, 19:34:21 »
High ZDDP?  Why?  Are we wiping out cams? 

dirkbalter

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, CA, Corona
  • Posts: 713
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2021, 20:07:29 »
High ZDDP?  Why?  Are we wiping out cams?

I am using it too. (VR1-racing oil).  May be its overkill but it appears to provide added protection, cam surface for example. I does not have any disadvantages as far as I can find?

Quote Summit Racing:


Zinc in Oil - Not a Myth
ZDDP was first used in mainstream motor oil in the 1940's, primarily for its anti-corrosion benefits. Zinc kept the lead-copper bearings of the day from oxidizing, but it was also found to significantly reduce wear. As a result, ZDDP levels in mainstream oil gradually increased up until the early 1990s, peaking around 1,200-1,400 parts-per-million.

Starting in the early 2000's, hot rodders, race teams and automotive enthusiasts began seeing an increase in camshaft and lifter failures, particularly with flat-tappet cams. Issues with flat camshaft lobes became common place. Enthusiasts began scratching their heads trying to figure out why these failures happened. Valve spring pressures were checked, lifters were matched to the cam, everything was put together correctly, and brand-name oil was used - but there was still a failure.

Significantly reduced levels of ZDDP in mainstream oil were to blame. Looking back, we know these things changed parts-store oil forever:

Addition of sensitive emissions equipment like O2 sensors and catalytic converters
Better fuel economy via more efficient engines (roller valvetrains, georotor oil pumps, thinner piston rings, etc.)
Introduction of ethanol in gasoline (first E10, now E15)
Increased levels of detergents, extending oil change intervals
Modern parts-store oil is engineered with all of these things in mind. Obviously, your Eisenhower-era cam-in-block engine has a different set of engineering challenges. It needs different oil.

Best Oil for Older Cars and Race Engines
Oil composition has changed greatly over the years and while a certain brand/type of oil may have worked great in the past, the reduction of ZDDP could now spell disaster for your engine. ZDDP levels have gradually decreased since the 1990s in ALL mainstream oils, including diesel oils. In fact, the APIs new “SP” oil specification, set for release in 2020, is the first to not have been tested on an OHV pushrod or flat tappet engine.

For certification, API oils are tested on engines with a maximum 215 lbs. (open) valve spring pressure. Typical performance engines are equipped with valve springs over 280 lbs. (open) pressure. If you have an engine with a flat tappet cam, you need to be sure that the oil you use has enough ZDDP in it to create that layer of protection between the cam and lifters.
Dirk
66 230 SL
70 280 SEL
18 C300 COUPE
05 HD FLSTNI

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 5486
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2021, 20:29:54 »
:) :) Change the oil after you warm up the car, i.e.: run it for a few minutes. The thinking behind is, that you want to suspend all the contaminants in the old oil and drain them out with it.

...and one more good reason besides what you mention...the oil flows easier when warm. So, more of it drains out, faster, when warm, than cold. I wish that I had a warm garage every time I had to change oil but alas it was not meant to be. Warming up the oil facilitated the process.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
2019 Ford Edge SEL

Shvegel

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Cleveland Heights
  • Posts: 2752
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2021, 04:45:15 »
Literally everything I have read about ZDDP or "Zinc" in oil has specifically mentioned either cam in block engines or flat tappet engines.  Our engines have neither cam in block nor flat tapppets.  I would go further and say that our engines had among the least valvetrain load of any engine of their day.

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 1489
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2021, 18:17:31 »
Pat: Our engines have sort of 'flat tappets" as opposed to "roller" lifters. The contact surface between cam and rocker is basically "flat" and the "Hertz Contact Stress" is the concern.
I rather be on the safe side. All the modern and recent oil specifications, that have reduced additives to accommodate catalytic converters and supplemental friction inhibitors don't do anything for the old engines.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Shvegel

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Cleveland Heights
  • Posts: 2752
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2021, 04:05:28 »
Mike,
Granted but the ramp in the lifting direction pretty much mitigates the stress of the flat profile.  If you think about it the flat lobe / follower in the longitudinal direction actually increases the surface contact area and decreases the load on the lobes/ followers in any given area. 

The real question is will it help the ball studs?  Maybe?  The ball studs have been a wear point since the beginning of time when oils contained a ton of Zinc per litre.  I think we are just looking at a design issue there.  So often we still look at our cars like we are going to drive them for 100,000 miles.  I am guessing the vast majority of us will manage 2 or 3 thousand miles a year.  30 years from now your ball studs may thank you for seeking out a high ZDDP oil.  I am fairly confident I will have taken up worm farming long before then.

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 1489
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2021, 12:03:36 »
Very good point, Pat. As it is not that much of an effort, it may be wise to tend to the ball studs every time you adjust the valves. Taking the rocker arms off and applying some MOS2 type coating or dry graphite could be a good maintenance.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 5486
Re: Engine oil
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2021, 21:43:20 »
I don't think you can have "too much" lubrication.

Our Pagoda engines were designed in an era when motor oils had more zinc in them. Regardless of how many miles we put on them now, how round or flat our tappets are, or profiles of our ball studs,  I'll certainly feel more comfortable with more zinc and phosphorus lubrication additives in my oil than without. It's not as if this is breaking the bank in cost. Last 5 quarts of oil I bought was $24 or so.

I'll also feel more comfortable with a 20W50 oil rather than anything less.

I haven't done any significant mileage since returning from Charlottesville to Michigan after the PUB-Virginia event in September 2017. But that trip, like many other highway trips I have taken (to the various PUB events, and to other events, over 20,000 miles worth) had me consistently turning 4,000 RPM for hours on end. Six or seven hours on end at a stretch, to be exact.

I'll take a 20W50 with >1200 PPM of zinc and phosphorus, thank you.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
2019 Ford Edge SEL