Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Brennie on July 16, 2021, 10:58:12
-
Hi
I new here so, please bear with me.. simple question.. I’ve just checked my oil level and it appears a little low( on the bottom line) .. I’ve been told I need 10W 40.. are there any preferences?
My garage tells me they use standard Mercedes oil?? What should I be looking to buy here in the UK?
-
Brennie, if you use the search function, you will probably find about a million posts on this forum about this topic. Study those posts, I think it is worth it.
I think there may be more opinions and recommendations than Members, actually. :)
As a quick answer from a non-mechanic (myself) here are the key takeaways for me:
1. Stay with what manufacturer recommends, which is 20W50. You will end up with mineral oil most likely.
2. What is very important for oils for our cars is the ZDDP content - this is due to the type of timing mechanism we have. Most of oils today have lower content of ZDDP than in the past and not enough to protect our camshafts. It is easier in the US to find an oil with proper content of ZDDP (do not remember the number now) - I am hearing most of the muscle cars use it. There are also additives available. The only brand I could find in Europe, or its part where I live with proper content of ZDDP (and believe me, I spend quite some time on it, including mailing to various companies HQs) is Valvoline VR 1 20W50. This is what I use.
The oils used by Mercedes today do not have the proper viscosity and they do not have the proper amount of ZDDP.
So this is from a non-mechanic with overhauled engine. I am sure you will hear more form other Members.
Please change oil every year, even if you do not drive the car a lot. I buy oil filter change set from Mercedes dealers - this way you get several seals you need in a package.
-
Thank you very much…
I wonder if this is good??
https://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50
-
Hi,
I use 15W40 mineral, non synthetic oil corresponding to Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids espec. 228.3 and 291.1 and Mercedes Classic Center:
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/index.php?language_id=1.
But as Pawel mentioned this is more than a philosophic question.
...WRe
-
I’ve just spoken to a chap named Guy, who owns Classic Oils… it’s a fascinating subject and he is very eloquent on the minutiae … sourcing products from around the world to be used in classic engines… he’s saying his Classic Heritage 20W50 or , in the middle, Classic Plus 15W50 …
-
It also looks dirty
-
Oh no!
-
I’ve just spoken to a chap named Guy, who owns Classic Oils… it’s a fascinating subject and he is very eloquent on the minutiae … sourcing products from around the world to be used in classic engines… he’s saying his Classic Heritage 20W50 or , in the middle, Classic Plus 15W50 …
If he is so eloquent, ask him about required amount of ZDDP in oil for rocker type timing systems, see what he says, then ask him which product he recommends has this amount of ZDDP, ask to document it with product card, then check the amount here on this site.
A lot of vendors are very eloquent, a lot of brands do great marketing, but they often do not have what you need. I think best is to find a product of good known brand that has what you need. I would never put anything different in my engine.
-
It also looks dirty
Your oil indeed looks fairly dirty and there is very little of it. That is why I wrote "change it every year". This is simple and basic, but extremely important care element.
-
Last month the MBCA (Mercedes Benz Club of America) Peachtree section hosted "The Theology of Oil" tech session. they have posted the video on their YouTube page, MBCA Peachtube.
link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtTHmLmWXno
hopefully this helps.
-
Yes.. this is very strange because, I’ve not long had the car and, I bought it from one of the “leading lights” of the Pagoda world in the UK.. someone of high repute..he told me that it had been fully serviced, or , fettled, to use his expression… being really non- mechanic, I trust in other people…
Therein lies a lesson…
-
Hi Brennie
Quite a lot of us use Valvoline RacingVR1 20/50, a Mineral oil with historically a high ZDDP content, its about £30 for 5 litres, beware of some Ebay suppliers, I have used the following but other suppliers are available.
https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/valvoline-vr1-racing-oil-250069/
Recently however EU regulations has persuaded many companies to reformulate their additive packages, and many Suppliers are evasive when it comes to publishing the quantity of the additives in their oils, making it impossible to really know what you are getting.
Your oil looks low and well used to me, I would top it up or get it & the filter changed by someone that knows our cars, rather than "fettled"
Which model Pagoda do you have ?
Keep safe
Paul
-
Hi,
your oil looks really dark and dirty. If this does not come from any wearout my first idea was that your last service used synthetic motor oil because this has a high cleaning power.
Attached a list of motor oil with high ZDDP content.
...WRe
-
I wonder if this is any good?
-
This
-
No idea about this brand. But to note: if your engine is rebuilt, all your seals and gaskets are made of modern materials.
What you need, however, is ZDDP.
-
Thank you all for such sage advise…I have an SL 230 1964( had that date on a little card inside the rear view mirror that I dismantled to have remirrored and chromed)… I’ve only done about 600 miles (if that) since I bought it...the UK weather has been awful until now..my first job now is to get the oil and filter changed..
-
The dreaded "Oil Thread". On many "motor forums" it is being frowned upon and sometimes ridiculed, as there are as many opinions about what oil to use as forum members have fingers.
That being said, here is mine:
- Depending on where you live and how you operate your SL, use a 20W50 as it may run mostly at higher temperatures and you have no need for a 0W... 10W.. or such. 20W50s are mostly excempt
from the API spec requirements limiting ZDDP
- As others have said, use an oil that has a ZDDP content over 1200ppm, because of the "flat tappets"
- use a synthetic to avoid sludge build-up
- If you park your car for a "no-driving" season/period, change the oil BEFORE you store to get rid of all the moisture and agressive contaminants.
- I have used Mobil1 20W40/50 but I cannot find this anymore, as a non-synthetic, Shell Rotella for Diesel engines is a good available alternative
Recently, I found this:
-
Not easy to find, even here in the States but Kendall GT 20-50 is all I ever use
-
Also, if you are new to the forum, and the car. Along with the oil, be sure to check the oil filter canister. This has been discussed at length regarding the need for the rubber gasket at the top of the filter - the gasket is in the bracket attached to the engine and DOES NOT come with the oil filter. You need to purchase this separately. In many cases, this gasket is not present, and lead to a short circuit of the oil around the filter.
Here is one thread to assist - the gasket I mentioned is at the top of the filter
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=29618.msg214305#msg214305
See the post by McMahon, with a diagram, the item I am referring to is no 37.
-
Thank everyone so much for your input … it’s a broad church of opinion and advice.. and, I’m looking forward to many years with my car learning all I can.. on this subject, I feel I’ve learned enough to make me confident while talking to the mechanic who may do the work.. I think I helps to have a little knowledge during discussions…
Next question.. could I do it myself.. oil and filter change I mean? I don’t mind getting messy…
-
Hi,
changing oil is not difficult, basically just two screws after lifting the car a bit: oil drain screw and oil cannister screw. Last a little bit messy.
Oil and filter are not expensive compared to workshop costs.
...WRe
-
Have a look in the Maintenance Manual here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Restricted/ServiceManual
-
:) :) Change the oil after you warm up the car, i.e.: run it for a few minutes. The thinking behind is, that you want to suspend all the contaminants in the old oil and drain them out with it.
While it is not a requirement, I think that possessing a basic set of skills in maintenance is of advantage when owning an older car: Changing the oil, adjusting the valves, changing brake pads, adjusting drive belt tension. Otherwise you will end up at a service dealer when the cars has a blown fuse or is low on tire pressure.
The Kendall is a good oil. I have used that in my 914-6.
-
Thank everyone so much for your input … it’s a broad church of opinion and advice.. and, I’m looking forward to many years with my car learning all I can.. on this subject, I feel I’ve learned enough to make me confident while talking to the mechanic who may do the work.. I think I helps to have a little knowledge during discussions…
Next question.. could I do it myself.. oil and filter change I mean? I don’t mind getting messy…
You received link to Technical Manual that will lead you step by step. I would buy the hardware from Mercedes dealer - you get most of the parts in the set, except the thick rubber ring mentioned, that you need to order separately
A 000 180 00 09 filter element set, ca $15-20
A 000 184 33 80 the special thick rubber ring, as mentioned, not coming out with the filter, may feel and look like a piece of metal up there; better replace it as it might have lost its flexibility
A 000 184 32 80 another gasket at the bottom should you decide to replace it, but it is more complicated and may not be necessary, it is difficult to remove it without damaging a hat like piece that holds it
My best advise (as a weekend mechanic) - make sure you screwed in the drain plug before pouring the new oil.
-
We use 10/40 on all of our customers' engines and have had no complaints or problems thus far.
We have rebuilt plenty of engines that others have been unsuccesful in rebuilding and many of them have covered many thousands of miles since without issue.
-
High ZDDP? Why? Are we wiping out cams?
-
High ZDDP? Why? Are we wiping out cams?
I am using it too. (VR1-racing oil). May be its overkill but it appears to provide added protection, cam surface for example. I does not have any disadvantages as far as I can find?
Quote Summit Racing:
Zinc in Oil - Not a Myth
ZDDP was first used in mainstream motor oil in the 1940's, primarily for its anti-corrosion benefits. Zinc kept the lead-copper bearings of the day from oxidizing, but it was also found to significantly reduce wear. As a result, ZDDP levels in mainstream oil gradually increased up until the early 1990s, peaking around 1,200-1,400 parts-per-million.
Starting in the early 2000's, hot rodders, race teams and automotive enthusiasts began seeing an increase in camshaft and lifter failures, particularly with flat-tappet cams. Issues with flat camshaft lobes became common place. Enthusiasts began scratching their heads trying to figure out why these failures happened. Valve spring pressures were checked, lifters were matched to the cam, everything was put together correctly, and brand-name oil was used - but there was still a failure.
Significantly reduced levels of ZDDP in mainstream oil were to blame. Looking back, we know these things changed parts-store oil forever:
Addition of sensitive emissions equipment like O2 sensors and catalytic converters
Better fuel economy via more efficient engines (roller valvetrains, georotor oil pumps, thinner piston rings, etc.)
Introduction of ethanol in gasoline (first E10, now E15)
Increased levels of detergents, extending oil change intervals
Modern parts-store oil is engineered with all of these things in mind. Obviously, your Eisenhower-era cam-in-block engine has a different set of engineering challenges. It needs different oil.
Best Oil for Older Cars and Race Engines
Oil composition has changed greatly over the years and while a certain brand/type of oil may have worked great in the past, the reduction of ZDDP could now spell disaster for your engine. ZDDP levels have gradually decreased since the 1990s in ALL mainstream oils, including diesel oils. In fact, the APIs new “SP” oil specification, set for release in 2020, is the first to not have been tested on an OHV pushrod or flat tappet engine.
For certification, API oils are tested on engines with a maximum 215 lbs. (open) valve spring pressure. Typical performance engines are equipped with valve springs over 280 lbs. (open) pressure. If you have an engine with a flat tappet cam, you need to be sure that the oil you use has enough ZDDP in it to create that layer of protection between the cam and lifters.
-
:) :) Change the oil after you warm up the car, i.e.: run it for a few minutes. The thinking behind is, that you want to suspend all the contaminants in the old oil and drain them out with it.
...and one more good reason besides what you mention...the oil flows easier when warm. So, more of it drains out, faster, when warm, than cold. I wish that I had a warm garage every time I had to change oil but alas it was not meant to be. Warming up the oil facilitated the process.
-
Literally everything I have read about ZDDP or "Zinc" in oil has specifically mentioned either cam in block engines or flat tappet engines. Our engines have neither cam in block nor flat tapppets. I would go further and say that our engines had among the least valvetrain load of any engine of their day.
-
Pat: Our engines have sort of 'flat tappets" as opposed to "roller" lifters. The contact surface between cam and rocker is basically "flat" and the "Hertz Contact Stress" is the concern.
I rather be on the safe side. All the modern and recent oil specifications, that have reduced additives to accommodate catalytic converters and supplemental friction inhibitors don't do anything for the old engines.
-
Mike,
Granted but the ramp in the lifting direction pretty much mitigates the stress of the flat profile. If you think about it the flat lobe / follower in the longitudinal direction actually increases the surface contact area and decreases the load on the lobes/ followers in any given area.
The real question is will it help the ball studs? Maybe? The ball studs have been a wear point since the beginning of time when oils contained a ton of Zinc per litre. I think we are just looking at a design issue there. So often we still look at our cars like we are going to drive them for 100,000 miles. I am guessing the vast majority of us will manage 2 or 3 thousand miles a year. 30 years from now your ball studs may thank you for seeking out a high ZDDP oil. I am fairly confident I will have taken up worm farming long before then.
-
Very good point, Pat. As it is not that much of an effort, it may be wise to tend to the ball studs every time you adjust the valves. Taking the rocker arms off and applying some MOS2 type coating or dry graphite could be a good maintenance.
-
I don't think you can have "too much" lubrication.
Our Pagoda engines were designed in an era when motor oils had more zinc in them. Regardless of how many miles we put on them now, how round or flat our tappets are, or profiles of our ball studs, I'll certainly feel more comfortable with more zinc and phosphorus lubrication additives in my oil than without. It's not as if this is breaking the bank in cost. Last 5 quarts of oil I bought was $24 or so.
I'll also feel more comfortable with a 20W50 oil rather than anything less.
I haven't done any significant mileage since returning from Charlottesville to Michigan after the PUB-Virginia event in September 2017. But that trip, like many other highway trips I have taken (to the various PUB events, and to other events, over 20,000 miles worth) had me consistently turning 4,000 RPM for hours on end. Six or seven hours on end at a stretch, to be exact.
I'll take a 20W50 with >1200 PPM of zinc and phosphorus, thank you.
-
Ahh, another oil thread. Rarely are people more passionate about a topic, whether they ride motorbikes, drive classic cars or are racing. So entertaining and I love reading them at night with a glass of Scotch in my hand.
FWIW, use whatever brand you can find in the correct viscosity (W20-50) but change oil and filter at least once a year. I change the oil in my car every 3000km and one last time before I store the car for the winter. My brand of choice is Motul Classic Oil 20W50 for Classic Cars built between 1950 - 1970 SF / CF. I prefer mineral oil to semi- or full-synthetic as fewer particles will be suspended in the oil. I am also a big believer in having a magnetic drain plug which will attract any metal particles and acts as an early-warning system that something is not right in the engine.
-
I use Shell Rotella Diesel T4 15W40 (in all my vintage cars). Cost efficient, higher zinc. I change at least every two years before winter storage as I'm hard pressed to get 500 miles on the car in a year. I also change the filter with the oil which seems like a waste (1K miles or less), but I do anyway. In 14 years, never had an oil related issue with the car which I often drive at 80 mph.
-
Please do not have a look only on ZDDP. The zinc complex is only one of the additions in a proper engine oil. I always recommend a modern engine oil and not those "classic" fluids. They are mostly poor quality. The 20W fluids are in most areas too sticky for a quick oil film in the engine. In California or Arizona in the US maybe. It is a myth that the sticky 20W50 keeps a lubrication film during cold start. It is important that you have a quick oil pressure and a low viscosity from the first crank attempt. Have a look at the handbook. It recommends 10W30. London is quite not known as a hot area. But you can easily use a 10W40 with a modern and current technology. For example Mobil Super 2000 X1 10W40. Btw Mobil1 0W40 contains more Zinc-Complex than most "classic" lubricants. But lubricants technology is more than zinc. Too much zinc leaves burning coal and ash.
-
Guys, I only use for my car Bardahl xtc60 15w50 semi sintetic oil . Bardahl is the most popular oil here in italy and I’ve always used in all my cars with fantastic results . My question is, why my engine oil gets dirty almost immediately? I have a very rich running issue and for this reason I’m going to send my pump to Hans fritzsche in Germany for a complete overhaul . The engine oil of course smells a bit of petrol . Is there a correlation between mixing gas and engine oil and getting the oil dirty ?
Maybe the unburned fuel generates carbon deposits in the oil pan ?
-
Have a look at the handbook. It recommends 10W30.
Exactly where is that handbook from?
The reason I use a heavy oil 15W-50 is because this M130 motor turns much higher RPM at cruise; 2X what my daily drivers do.
-
Exactly where is that handbook from?
Hei, is is from the 1967 250SL handbook. It is very comparable to 230/280SL.
The most important thing is that you have a sufficient oil flush while cold start and a 10W-something is quite good for that purpose. Please keep in mind that the oil pipe for the drop oiler of the camshaft and the rocker arms are lubricated without pressure. It only falls onto the camshaft bearings and if the oil is too sticky from the begin on, you may have no good oil film. The same with the small end of the connecting rods and the cylinder surfaces. The lower the viscosity of the oil is, you have less wear in cold engine operation. When oil is hot, it is not so much important if you use 10W30/40 or 50. I use 0W40 Mobil1, but it is a new engine. I recommend absolutely a 10W-something to avoid wear at cold engine run. All current Lubricants have enough additions to avoid wear and do not have only a look at zinc ;)
Talk soon. Martin.
-
. My question is, why my engine oil gets dirty almost immediately? I have a very rich running issue and for this reason I’m going to send my pump to Hans fritzsche in Germany for a complete overhaul . The engine oil of course smells a bit of petrol . Is there a correlation between mixing gas and engine oil and getting the oil dirty ?
Maybe the unburned fuel generates carbon deposits in the oil pan ?
Hei. Yes unburned fuel and carbon may color the oil dark. But a dark colored oil is no proof for the quality of the oil and says nothing about its lubrication capabilities. And you are right, if the engine runs with a too rich mixture all the time, this is worse than anything other issue. Talk soon, Martin