Author Topic: Matching numbers question.  (Read 6771 times)

Martyberg

  • Associate Member
  • Junior Level
  • *
  • Australia, Western Australia, Perth
  • Posts: 33
Matching numbers question.
« on: February 12, 2020, 11:56:50 »
Good day all.
Today  I went to look at a 69 280SL. In fairly good condition, mechanically drives great. The issue is it had an engine replacement 10 years ago. The question I have is how much does this affect the value,  just looking for a ball park. For example, if it was worth $100k with matching numbers, is it now worth 50, 70, 80k? I know this is not an simple question but I’m interested in what people in this forum think.
Thanks.
1967 250SL Auto

ejboyd5

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Southold, NY
  • Posts: 501
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2020, 12:16:01 »
To be worth $100K, a 1969 280 SL best have its original engine which is not necessarily the same as period correct engine with "matching numbers."

Cees Klumper

  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5502
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 13:30:20 »
I still put any price difference to 'small' e.g. 95K in your example. It's more about other things. For example, when I bought mine in 1999 it was the most expensive among the alternatives I considered yet had had its engine replaced. I since replaced it again.
A reputable restoration shop told me if a customer requests it, they will stamp the original engine number into the block, which is not hard to do.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4108
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2020, 16:42:24 »
I think what is most important regarding the engine is that it be the correct type, i.e. a 280 SL engine in a 280 SL. The "matching numbers" thing is way too much a carryover from the American muscle cars where there were so many options available in size and horsepower. Then the difference in price can be huge.

On the Pagoda you had one choice. Yes, yes, difference between American and Euro, but again, is it a 280 SL engine or not.

As Cees states, it comes down to condition.
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5154
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2020, 18:44:37 »
I still put any price difference to 'small' e.g. 95K in your example. It's more about other things. For example, when I bought mine in 1999 it was the most expensive among the alternatives I considered yet had had its engine replaced. I since replaced it again.
A reputable restoration shop told me if a customer requests it, they will stamp the original engine number into the block, which is not hard to do.

I tend not to post in this kind of threads due to my limited experience.

I just thought perhaps, seeing the quoted post, that this may raise some attention and may help somebody realize certain things.

My country is quite a power in car restoration business. This is because there is quite a lot of know how of how to make a dead car an alive one - after communist times, those days this often was the only way to have a car at all. It is (was) for a moderate price. But I think, no offence intended, that some of these practices may be universal across state boundaries. It is all about the owner, the shop's moral spine and the price the car can achieve.

In essence: whichever number you like, in whichever place and in whichever way is required is absolutely no issue to have. Whichever plate with whatever information you need, any mileage you desire (5 digits only!), any kind of documented history down to the 19th century, ownership of any kind, all the way to Henry the 8th who bought the car for Anne for birthday, with a photo - is absolutely no issue. It is only a question of the price these cars can command.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 19:17:50 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2020, 20:14:23 »
Pawel: I would think it would be very important to have records about what happened to the car after Henry 8th disposed of Ann. Did Henry repossess it, did it go to the church - like many possessions of assets of royalty after their death - or did Ann have any relatives who would claim the car?? All very important to determine the value! 8)
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

JamesL

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, London, London
  • Posts: 3525
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2020, 20:23:14 »
Perfect car for her, really. She ended up “topless”
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5154
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2020, 20:31:18 »
Pawel: I would think it would be very important to have records about what happened to the car after Henry 8th disposed of Ann. Did Henry repossess it, did it go to the church - like many possessions of assets of royalty after their death - or did Ann have any relatives who would claim the car?? All very important to determine the value! 8)

Mike, as per my previous post: the history of the car after PO's decapitation  is entirely up to the the next PO.  ;)
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2020, 20:54:17 »
Hey, what I say when it comes to matching numbers.  " She was a 10 - until the lights went out....... "
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Garry

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Australia, Victoria, Kyneton
  • Posts: 5169
  • Audit Committee
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2020, 21:00:12 »
So the difference in price really is the cost of a grinder, a hammer, a number stamp set and a little bit of moral fortitude.  Or you look the other way whilst the workshop does it for a small fee.


Yep not much difference.







Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5154
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2020, 21:20:02 »
All I am trying to say is: be careful.

There is a lot of money at stake as far as these cars are concerned. Sometimes buying one involves emotions. Have a pair of professional eyes look at it.

My car has a "Tauschaggregat" with a number stamped by a kindergarten kid. Gear box has a different number. Body panels, upholstery panels - all have correct numbers. Chassis was recoverable and straight. The car was complete in essence.

Is it a matching number car? No.
Would I prefer to have a matching number car? Yes. But it would not be the key purchase factor and I would not pay a major premIum for it.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5154
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2020, 21:22:48 »
So the difference in price really is the cost of a grinder, a hammer, a number stamp set and a little bit of moral fortitude.  Or you look the other way whilst the workshop does it for a small fee.


Yep not much difference.

No, you need to get more sophisticated: for mileage you need an electric drill and pedal pads.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2020, 21:28:08 »
No, you need to get more sophisticated: for mileage you need an electric drill and pedal pads.

Actually, I think turning the odometer backwards with a drill, is an urban myth. I have played (and still do) with a lot of mechanic speedometers and tachometers of various makes to make sure they work before I sell them and , so far, none of them has responded to any attempts to "roll them back" 8)
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Cees Klumper

  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5502
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2020, 22:26:54 »
Oh gosh, look what I started! Thanks Pawel, all relevant for the OP.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

doitwright

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, IL, Willowbrook
  • Posts: 644
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2020, 22:34:53 »
Once an engine is rebuilt is it original? If only the number on the block matches the original but the head, cylinders, cam, crank, seals, bearings or other components have been replaced, you cannot say it is original. Besides, who wants an "original" over a rebuilt/replaced? In the majority of cases, If the engine has never been rebuilt it is either leaking like a sieve or was never driven. Both not desirable. The 1965 220SE Coupe I had was serviced routinely by the same dealer where the car was originally purchased. Receipts showed it had the long block replaced at 50K miles only a few years later (less than $1K back then). When I had it for sale a potential buyer made a big deal about the car not having the original engine because of something he was told. He felt it was worth half of what a car with an original engine would be worth. I found no need in arguing with him since it was apparent from his other questions he knew nothing about 60's era Mercedes coupes.
Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Originally Light Ivory - Now Anthracite Gray Metallic

Martyberg

  • Associate Member
  • Junior Level
  • *
  • Australia, Western Australia, Perth
  • Posts: 33
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2020, 23:08:51 »
Thanks for the replies everyone, much appreciated. Below is the number stamped on the engine. Is this a 280SL replacement engine? Not very clear but 131 016 71 06
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 23:13:35 by Martyberg »
1967 250SL Auto

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2020, 00:04:26 »
That looks like a cylinder head casting number.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2020, 00:06:51 »
Actually, I think turning the odometer backwards with a drill, is an urban myth. I have played (and still do) with a lot of mechanic speedometers and tachometers of various makes to make sure they work before I sell them and , so far, none of them has responded to any attempts to "roll them back" 8)

That's because you don't know how to do or won't admit to it.  ;) Let's be clear here - it is possible to do. :-X
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2020, 01:06:40 »
 ;D Seriously, I have not been able to do it. Almost all instruments I have turned with the drill run forward when turning the drill left/backwards. The odometer does not respond to the drill running right/forward.

And the number 130...is the cylinder head casting number. And it is a strange number for a 280SL. Then again, the head on my engine is definitely 280SL and its casting number is also not listed in the table in Tech Manual.
The engine number should start with 130 983...for an original 280SL motor
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 17:54:44 by MikeSimon »
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Martyberg

  • Associate Member
  • Junior Level
  • *
  • Australia, Western Australia, Perth
  • Posts: 33
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2020, 01:43:53 »
Ok, thanks guys, I’ll take another look and see if I can find the number
1967 250SL Auto

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5154
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2020, 07:42:59 »
Martyberg, take a look here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/EngineNumber

Engine number is stamped nice and even when it is done in the factory. You may come across a plate saying "Tauschaggregat" - which means MB replacement engine. Then the engine number may or may not be stamped in the usual place. It may not be stamped as nicely as by the factory.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

doitwright

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, IL, Willowbrook
  • Posts: 644
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2020, 08:56:05 »
Is the mileage on an odometer that only reads to 99,999 really a factor on a 50 year old car?
Frank Koronkiewicz
Willowbrook, Illinois

1970 280SL Originally Light Ivory - Now Anthracite Gray Metallic

ejboyd5

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Southold, NY
  • Posts: 501
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2020, 12:27:42 »
Henry VIII's marital history: Divorced, beheaded. died. divorced, beheaded. survived.

ejboyd5

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Southold, NY
  • Posts: 501
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2020, 12:35:31 »
To illustrate the problem, here's what one Corvette enthusiast settled upon:

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: Matching numbers question.
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2020, 13:35:40 »
Ok, thanks guys, I’ll take another look and see if I can find the number

As you can see in the link posted, the engine serial number is stamped on the block right below the Cylinder head ID, which is a little further back towards the firewall than the number you posted.
This ID also gives you an indication of what engine you have. It should say 280, 280/SL, 280 SE/SL,280SE/A or 280SEL/SL
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner