Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Martyberg on February 12, 2020, 11:56:50
-
Good day all.
Today I went to look at a 69 280SL. In fairly good condition, mechanically drives great. The issue is it had an engine replacement 10 years ago. The question I have is how much does this affect the value, just looking for a ball park. For example, if it was worth $100k with matching numbers, is it now worth 50, 70, 80k? I know this is not an simple question but I’m interested in what people in this forum think.
Thanks.
-
To be worth $100K, a 1969 280 SL best have its original engine which is not necessarily the same as period correct engine with "matching numbers."
-
I still put any price difference to 'small' e.g. 95K in your example. It's more about other things. For example, when I bought mine in 1999 it was the most expensive among the alternatives I considered yet had had its engine replaced. I since replaced it again.
A reputable restoration shop told me if a customer requests it, they will stamp the original engine number into the block, which is not hard to do.
-
I think what is most important regarding the engine is that it be the correct type, i.e. a 280 SL engine in a 280 SL. The "matching numbers" thing is way too much a carryover from the American muscle cars where there were so many options available in size and horsepower. Then the difference in price can be huge.
On the Pagoda you had one choice. Yes, yes, difference between American and Euro, but again, is it a 280 SL engine or not.
As Cees states, it comes down to condition.
-
I still put any price difference to 'small' e.g. 95K in your example. It's more about other things. For example, when I bought mine in 1999 it was the most expensive among the alternatives I considered yet had had its engine replaced. I since replaced it again.
A reputable restoration shop told me if a customer requests it, they will stamp the original engine number into the block, which is not hard to do.
I tend not to post in this kind of threads due to my limited experience.
I just thought perhaps, seeing the quoted post, that this may raise some attention and may help somebody realize certain things.
My country is quite a power in car restoration business. This is because there is quite a lot of know how of how to make a dead car an alive one - after communist times, those days this often was the only way to have a car at all. It is (was) for a moderate price. But I think, no offence intended, that some of these practices may be universal across state boundaries. It is all about the owner, the shop's moral spine and the price the car can achieve.
In essence: whichever number you like, in whichever place and in whichever way is required is absolutely no issue to have. Whichever plate with whatever information you need, any mileage you desire (5 digits only!), any kind of documented history down to the 19th century, ownership of any kind, all the way to Henry the 8th who bought the car for Anne for birthday, with a photo - is absolutely no issue. It is only a question of the price these cars can command.
-
Pawel: I would think it would be very important to have records about what happened to the car after Henry 8th disposed of Ann. Did Henry repossess it, did it go to the church - like many possessions of assets of royalty after their death - or did Ann have any relatives who would claim the car?? All very important to determine the value! 8)
-
Perfect car for her, really. She ended up “topless”
-
Pawel: I would think it would be very important to have records about what happened to the car after Henry 8th disposed of Ann. Did Henry repossess it, did it go to the church - like many possessions of assets of royalty after their death - or did Ann have any relatives who would claim the car?? All very important to determine the value! 8)
Mike, as per my previous post: the history of the car after PO's decapitation is entirely up to the the next PO. ;)
-
Hey, what I say when it comes to matching numbers. " She was a 10 - until the lights went out....... "
-
So the difference in price really is the cost of a grinder, a hammer, a number stamp set and a little bit of moral fortitude. Or you look the other way whilst the workshop does it for a small fee.
Yep not much difference.
-
All I am trying to say is: be careful.
There is a lot of money at stake as far as these cars are concerned. Sometimes buying one involves emotions. Have a pair of professional eyes look at it.
My car has a "Tauschaggregat" with a number stamped by a kindergarten kid. Gear box has a different number. Body panels, upholstery panels - all have correct numbers. Chassis was recoverable and straight. The car was complete in essence.
Is it a matching number car? No.
Would I prefer to have a matching number car? Yes. But it would not be the key purchase factor and I would not pay a major premIum for it.
-
So the difference in price really is the cost of a grinder, a hammer, a number stamp set and a little bit of moral fortitude. Or you look the other way whilst the workshop does it for a small fee.
Yep not much difference.
No, you need to get more sophisticated: for mileage you need an electric drill and pedal pads.
-
No, you need to get more sophisticated: for mileage you need an electric drill and pedal pads.
Actually, I think turning the odometer backwards with a drill, is an urban myth. I have played (and still do) with a lot of mechanic speedometers and tachometers of various makes to make sure they work before I sell them and , so far, none of them has responded to any attempts to "roll them back" 8)
-
Oh gosh, look what I started! Thanks Pawel, all relevant for the OP.
-
Once an engine is rebuilt is it original? If only the number on the block matches the original but the head, cylinders, cam, crank, seals, bearings or other components have been replaced, you cannot say it is original. Besides, who wants an "original" over a rebuilt/replaced? In the majority of cases, If the engine has never been rebuilt it is either leaking like a sieve or was never driven. Both not desirable. The 1965 220SE Coupe I had was serviced routinely by the same dealer where the car was originally purchased. Receipts showed it had the long block replaced at 50K miles only a few years later (less than $1K back then). When I had it for sale a potential buyer made a big deal about the car not having the original engine because of something he was told. He felt it was worth half of what a car with an original engine would be worth. I found no need in arguing with him since it was apparent from his other questions he knew nothing about 60's era Mercedes coupes.
-
Thanks for the replies everyone, much appreciated. Below is the number stamped on the engine. Is this a 280SL replacement engine? Not very clear but 131 016 71 06
-
That looks like a cylinder head casting number.
-
Actually, I think turning the odometer backwards with a drill, is an urban myth. I have played (and still do) with a lot of mechanic speedometers and tachometers of various makes to make sure they work before I sell them and , so far, none of them has responded to any attempts to "roll them back" 8)
That's because you don't know how to do or won't admit to it. ;) Let's be clear here - it is possible to do. :-X
-
;D Seriously, I have not been able to do it. Almost all instruments I have turned with the drill run forward when turning the drill left/backwards. The odometer does not respond to the drill running right/forward.
And the number 130...is the cylinder head casting number. And it is a strange number for a 280SL. Then again, the head on my engine is definitely 280SL and its casting number is also not listed in the table in Tech Manual.
The engine number should start with 130 983...for an original 280SL motor
-
Ok, thanks guys, I’ll take another look and see if I can find the number
-
Martyberg, take a look here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/EngineNumber
Engine number is stamped nice and even when it is done in the factory. You may come across a plate saying "Tauschaggregat" - which means MB replacement engine. Then the engine number may or may not be stamped in the usual place. It may not be stamped as nicely as by the factory.
-
Is the mileage on an odometer that only reads to 99,999 really a factor on a 50 year old car?
-
Henry VIII's marital history: Divorced, beheaded. died. divorced, beheaded. survived.
-
To illustrate the problem, here's what one Corvette enthusiast settled upon:
-
Ok, thanks guys, I’ll take another look and see if I can find the number
As you can see in the link posted, the engine serial number is stamped on the block right below the Cylinder head ID, which is a little further back towards the firewall than the number you posted.
This ID also gives you an indication of what engine you have. It should say 280, 280/SL, 280 SE/SL,280SE/A or 280SEL/SL
-
The number on the cylinder head reads as 130 017 71 06. Was the photo updated to show the first part of the number more clearly??
-
Ok so after a bit of investigation on my own 250SL, I found two numbers, the first is obviously the cylinder head number and the second number stamped on a plate is the same number 129 016 0301 (see photos)?
I take it this might be a replacement engine as well? I can’t figure out why they would stamp the cylinder head number on the engine number plate? Anyone have an idea?
-
And the place where you normally have the engine number is empty?
-
Maybe they thought that would make it "matching numbers"??
-
Maybe they thought that would make it "matching numbers"??
Well, great minds in action ::)
The cast part number on the engine head now matches the number stamped on a crudely self-made metal plate that they then attached to the block. Brilliant (not!)
-
Notwithstanding that the engine number is a totally different format. It should be 129.xxx-xx-xxxxxx
Someone mistook the head casting number for the engine number and when they replaced the engine they stamped that number on the plate (which is also not a "Tauschaggregat" plate.
-
Yep, at least it’s “matching numbers”.....ha ha ha!
Anyone know how that plate is attached to the engine? Is it riveted on? I want to take it off.
-
It looks like you can grind off the heads of whatever these fasteners are. The original engine number should be in that spot right under the plate - if they have not removed it.
-
Thanks Mike, I’m going to grind those rivets off and see what’s under that plate.
-
Hi Everybody
I have a question related with the practice. Does the Mercedes Dealer installing the new Tauschaggregat should print the old numbers on the installed engine or not?
I have one without any prints?
Thank you for help!
-
On my Tauschaggregat engine the original engine number is stamped on the block. Looks like a kindergarten kid stamped it, but it is there.
Years ago I read in the Technical Manual that the original number might or might have not been stamped, i.e. the practice was not consistent.
-
Many thanks Pawel for the explanation.
And what color had originally the engine? Were all red? Or only the M129 were red?
-
.../...And what color had originally the engine? Were all red?.../...
None were red.
All M-B engine blocks came from factory in black (semi-matte)
-
The blocks had red primer underneath the black.
-
Many thanks!
It looks that the paint under is in some cases better than the final coating. Do you know may be or where I can find the color code of this black coating?
Maybe somebody know also how to protect the valve cover? Few years ago I cleaned the cover by glass bed blasting and after 3 years the aluminum looks not so nice. Do I have to put also a coating?
-
SEB, on valve cover finish and protection: there are quite a few schools, practices and, obviously, results. You may want to start with typing e.g. "valve cover finish" or alike (in parenthesis to cover the words) in the Search window in the top right corner of the Home page. You will get quite a lot of hits. Then everybody would be happy to comment if you have questions.
Some hints on engine cosmetics here:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12385.msg83971#msg83971
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26334.msg188529#msg188529
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4155.msg25523#msg25523
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11359.0
I do not recall I came across a satin black color number for engine, but perhaps some of the Members know it.
-
Pawel! Many thanks! I could find some ways how to protect the valve cover- because I think I have to do it again- glass bead blasting and then to protect it?
-
So it looks...
You had some protection ideas there. Make sure the duct for engine breathing underneath is clean.
But personally: if you had it cleaned once, maybe some good cleaning with kitchen equipment and dishwashing liquid will do. That is how I would start. Do not use steel brushes or any other steel scrapers.
-
Thanks! This can be a good idea Pawel. Does somebody have some experience what kind of detergent can clean the surface of the valve cover?
I read that you can use for instance the brake cleaner or rims cleaner- but as I have learned I have to clean it out of the car due to the strong action of this cleaners.