Author Topic: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes  (Read 2495 times)

FGN59

  • Inactive
  • Silver
  • ****
  • France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Marseille
  • Posts: 263
Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« on: December 17, 2019, 15:02:45 »
Hello everybody,

In a few words, let me express as a new member great admiration and a most sincere gratitude for the wealth of information and experience assembled in this forum, for the accompanying technical manual and support, and generally for everything the Pagoda SL Group provides through the efforts and dedication of its members, past and present.
 
As a newcomer to the MB and Pagoda world, I have read with tremendous interest all that seems relevant to my situation, both to form a good understanding of the objects of our common passion, and to try and solve a few small issues I encountered with my new (new to me) car, a 4-gear manual 280SL manufactured in December 1968 and registered on 1/1/1969 in California. The car was reimported to Europe in 2009, and ended up in my hands two months ago (originally from Paris, I now live in the south of France near Aix en Provence).

The engine suffered a stroke early in 2019, if I may say, and was totally rebuilt from the inside out by a specialist for the previous owner. I purchased it (all matching numbers), after having it verified, before it was even broken in, and have put 1.000 miles on the odometer since, with growing exhilaration (from 2500 rpms at the start to 5500 by now, and still more to come - though I don’t expect to run the engine at such revs after the end of the break in period). It works like a Swiss (or in this case German) clock, and I can’t wait to put the top down when the weather permits.

Except... cold starts. The car starts only after about 10 seconds of cranking (and then it runs as I believe it should). Those 10 seconds don’t seem right, at least in my opinion, given the expectations rightfully nurtured by the gifted and dedicated engineers who have given MB and the German car industry its reputation…

I have succeeded in improving this 10 second-delay from maybe 15 secs when I got the car, after verifying each and every component of the cold start system on the car (CSV, CSS, WRD, TTS, relays, wiring, fuse, seals and o-rings, etc.), but also the timing, spark quality, fuel supply, etc. This was made a lot easier, and in fact simply possible, by the numerous articles and photos or drawings in the technical manual and various posts, so again thanks to all concerned.

I found that the inner o-ring in the CSV was nearly completely worn (replaced it), that the wiring to the TTS was wrong (G and W wires inverted, which I obviously corrected), and that everything else was not only good but running at spec or even better (as an example the fuel pump could supply a 747 at take-off, or nearly, from a crystal-clear tank and with a powerful return).

As it stands now, when I crank the engine, a test light hooked to the CSV illuminates the engine bay for 2 seconds, which is not long enough to get the engine started, although it helps a little bit. When I hot wire the CSV, the engine starts almost instantaneously (from cold, which is about 8-10°C currently around here, ie 45-50°F).

I tested the TTS both in and out of the car, and found that it performs exactly as it should, ohm-wise and degree-wise. I believe it is the ’how it should’ which is the source of my problem.

In addition to the expected marks (‘3.03’ for March 2003, ‘35°c +/-3°c’, ‘12V’, ‘120°C), the TTS bears some other which seem a bit unusual: ‘40W’, ‘20°C 5sec’, and ’36/2/9’ right under ‘120°C’.

‘40W’ seems really high (I seem to have seen 3W on pictures of both older and new or replacement TTSs), ‘5sec’ seems really short, and I have no idea what the 36/2/09 could stand for?

So, after this long exposition, I would be extremely grateful if some of you would advise me on the following:

- I am still missing something in my understanding of what could be wrong with the cold start system on my car?
- does anybody have experience with such an unusual TTS (could it be that it is adapted to freezing climes, like in Canada?)
- assuming it is the TTS which is responsible, is it worth exchanging it for a more ‘normal’ one (Niemöller in Germany sells a Bosch replacement for 67€, which is reasonable) or if a more practical course would be to by-pass the TTS altogether (I will try to maintain a reasonable level of authenticity to the car, but not at the expense of usability, plus cranking for 10 seconds or more as the season advances to colder temperatures is not good for the starter motor, the wiring, etc.), and if so what is the preferred way of doing this? I have thought of running a wire from terminal 85 of the CSS relay to same on the CSV relay, to keep all the cold start devices on the same electric scheme (activated by cranking only), with a manual switch in the car of course for warmer starts.
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7308
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2019, 16:04:54 »
Hello and welcome! Did you test the function of the starting solenoid on the injection pump? It should activate anytime the starter is activated.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

FGN59

  • Inactive
  • Silver
  • ****
  • France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Marseille
  • Posts: 263
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2019, 19:06:11 »
Hi

Thanks for the welcome, much appreciated.

I did check that the solenoid is activated (I checked the relay, the wiring, and I can hear the solenoid going ‘clank’), but I don’t know how to check the inside of the injection pump, to verify that the solenoid does indeed activate something. I know (from reading on the site) what it’s supposed to do (push the rack inside the pump to change the enrichment of the mixture entering the engine), but I don’t know how to check that it does what it’s supposed to do.
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7308
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2019, 20:12:15 »
The injection pump starting solenoid should be fine as long as it activates. There is a fine screen, in the fitting going into the CSV (intake), make sure the screen is clean. A partially restricted fuel screen will reduce the volume of the fuel spray from the CSV.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

teahead

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, WA, Des Moines
  • Posts: 780
  • aka "Rob"
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2019, 20:31:11 »
Do you turn the key on before cranking for at least 2-3 seconds?  I find that helps a lot.

2s for CSV activation before turning off does seem pretty short.  Did you clean and ensure the cold start relay is keeping the voltage to the CSV on long enough?
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

FGN59

  • Inactive
  • Silver
  • ****
  • France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Marseille
  • Posts: 263
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2019, 22:19:54 »
I do wait a few seconds after turning the key, to let the fuel pump flood the filter, injection pump, CSV fuel line, etc., before cranking.

And I did check the CSV itself, opened it, cleaned it, changed the small o-ring to the solenoid, the large one to the air intake manifold, checked the small filter inside the fuel line, checked that the CSV is spraying when activated, that fuel is indeed flowing through the CSV and not leaking to the solenoid when it is mounted (in which case one cannot check that it is spraying, but if fuel is coming to the CSV, and it sprays when not fitted in the the manifold, it would be quite extraordinary if it didn’t spray when mounted on the manifold).

Checked the relay (in fact all 3 relays, including the one which cuts the fuel off when decelerating), both statically (off the car with an ohm and voltage meter, checking that I get 0 ohm resistance between 30 and 87 when the relays are activated) and dynamically (on the car, making sure both the CSV and CSS relays activate with a test lamp), and all the wiring and fuse (nº6) to and from the relays to the CSV (via TTS) and CSS.
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

FGN59

  • Inactive
  • Silver
  • ****
  • France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Marseille
  • Posts: 263
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2019, 09:00:47 »
Hi again,

My first post was pretty long, and the issue I raised was kind of lost at the end so allow me to repeat it more concisely:

The TTS on my car (a 4-speed manual 280SL from late 1968, US model) bears some of the expected marks: ‘3.03’ for March 2003, ‘35°c +/-3°c’, ‘12V’, ‘120°C.
However there are some which seem a bit unusual: ‘40W’, ‘20°C 5sec’, and ’36/2/9’ right under ‘120°C’.

‘40W’ seems really high (I seem to have seen 3W on pictures of both older and new or replacement TTSs), ‘5sec’ seems really short, and I have no idea what the 36/2/09 could stand for?

I would be extremely grateful if some of you would advise me on the following:

- does anybody have experience with such an unusual TTS (could it be that it is adapted to freezing climes, like in Canada?)

- assuming the TTS is not adapted to the car's new location (southern France), is it worth exchanging it for a more ‘normal’ one (Niemöller in Germany sells a Bosch replacement for 67€, which is reasonable) or would a more practical course lead to by-pass the TTS altogether (I will try to maintain a reasonable level of authenticity to the car, but not at the expense of usability, plus cranking for 10 seconds or more as the season advances to colder temperatures is not good for the starter motor, the wiring, etc.), and if so what is the preferred way of doing this? I have thought of running a wire from terminal 85 of the CSS relay to same on the CSV relay, to keep all the cold start devices on the same electric scheme (activated by cranking only), with a manual switch in the car of course to prevent the CSV firing for warmer starts.
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

frederic cormier

  • Full Member
  • Junior Level
  • France, Centre, SULLY SUR LOIRE
  • Posts: 1
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2021, 06:34:19 »
bonjour
Je vis la meme experience aujourdhui a ce stade j'ai une question combien de temps le CSV est il activé a 20 degré celsius,le mien ne fonctionne que 2 secondes (bosch) ,Avant de le monter j'avais mis un bouton poussoir dans l'habitacle et la je pouvais rester activer a la demande et donc pas de probleme.
Je precise a chaud, demarage sans probleme et sans accelerer
Fred Cormier

FGN59

  • Inactive
  • Silver
  • ****
  • France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Marseille
  • Posts: 263
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2021, 11:00:43 »
Hi Frederic,

I am currently travelling, and away from my car. I’ll try to get to it towards the end of next week, if you don’t have an answer by then. But going from memory, 2 secs at 20°C doesn’t sound abnormal (not entirely sure until I actually get to measure it on my car).

Anyway the issue on my car was twofold : a clogged CSV (which I was able to clean and restore to function), and an error in wiring between the cold start relay and the TTS (the wires going to the G and W terminals on the TTS were swapped, causing the CSV never to fire). The TTS itself was fine, and now that every component is in its place and functions to specs, I have no more cold start problems (the car starts easily after 3-4 secs of cranking). The car also starts instantly when warm or even hot.

What is the issue with yours? At 20°C ambiant temperature, the car should start quite easily, even without the CSV?
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

mnahon

  • Full Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • Canada, QC, Montreal
  • Posts: 414
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2021, 13:59:36 »
The TTS should activate for longer than 2 s at 20 C. According to our technical manual, the spec is 9.5 sec at 20C. As they age, they activate for less and less time. It's up to you to decide what is insufficient. Part of it depends on how often you need to start it in cold temperatures.
Meyer Nahon
Montreal, Canada
1968 MB 280SL Auto Euro LHD Silver
2021 Tesla Model 3

jim 56

  • Associate Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NY, Bellerose
  • Posts: 160
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2021, 14:42:14 »
I have a 280 se sedan 1972.If it means anything I have unhooked the CSV and hidden a button inside.I press it for six seconds then crank.Starts up right away in any temp.

Shvegel

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Cleveland Heights
  • Posts: 2978
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2021, 09:44:22 »
Have you checked fuel pressure?

lpeterssen

  • Vendor
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, FL, Miami
  • Posts: 592
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2021, 11:30:25 »
Dear friend


The standard TTS should be for 35C and 10 seconds, which means that it will give a negative trigger signal up to for 10seconds as long as car water temperature is below 35Celcius during the cranking process (T50 signal active).  That signal should come out of the ROSE cable attached to the W terminal at the TTS which goes to different relays that control the activation of the CSV and the inner pump fuel enrichment selenoid.

As you mention you may override the TTS functionality by adding a switch on your dashboard connected to ground on one side (input) and having its output connected to the same ROSE cable on the TTS. (w)

In that way you will be who decides whether the COLD START MECHANISM LOGIC is active or not. You will decide if car temperature is below 35C and will be carefully enough to deactivate the switch if the cranking exceeds 10 seconds.

Remember that if you add much fuel during cranking you may flood your car and also not burned gasoline always ends on the car oil which reduces its viscosity, having negative effect on the wear rate of the motor internals.

Best regards
L.Peterssen

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2021, 14:41:21 »
Francois I have replaced the stock thermo time switch on my 280SL with a modern electronic type from Bosch more than a year ago. Works perfectly, starts instantly 95/100 times. Modern equivalent fits easily on the cylinder head, exact replacement, only the contacts socket is different but very easy to source. At around €130 I think it’s value for money. See photo below for part number.
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5154
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2021, 15:11:17 »
I did the same.

There are posts with all necessary part numbers and connections, but I have issues finding them now...

I think I went for 102, info enclosed.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2021, 18:42:47 »
I think you can find them in eBay Powel.....
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

FGN59

  • Inactive
  • Silver
  • ****
  • France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Marseille
  • Posts: 263
Re: Unusual TTS characteristics and cold start woes
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2021, 19:42:06 »
Thanks guys for your help and advice, duly noted for future reference if and when needed.

As I wrote in an earlier post of this thread (but I always write too much so the important information probably gets lost in the blabla) I was able to sort out the issues with my car satisfactorily using all the stock devices. Frederic, a newer member (also from France), is the one having problems now. Your advice is as always priceless, for him also.
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁