Author Topic: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify  (Read 301 times)

BOOB

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FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« on: November 08, 2019, 01:29:30 »
This is my first post! I love this site and have been referencing it for years. To say it’s been a huge help is an understatement.

I believe that I have a thorough understanding of the proper linkage adjustment procedure on my ‘65 230SL, practically memorized, but I seem to run into an issue that a couple others have questioned here before. It was briefly covered in the “linkage tour” thread but it wasn’t explained in a manner that came to a clear conclusion, at least to my understanding. I’m at the end of my rope. The problem:

If I align the ball stud on the crossover rod with the alignment hole in the linkage support as a starting point, while also adjusting the FIP linkage rod to 233mm, the lever on the FIP is moved away from its rest stop. I seem to be stuck with a decision to either 1) adjust the rod to 233, deal with the FIP lever being away from its stop at idle and have the alignment hole align with the ball stud, or 2) allow the FIP lever to rest on its stop and overlook the alignment hole method. Either scenario I would adjust the other rods to spec which would have the throttle butterfly on its rest, and so on. I understand that the adjustable FIP rest is factory-set and should never be touched, so if I use the alignment hole and set the rod to 233 and it pulls the lever away from the stop, doesn’t that mean that my stop has been tampered with? It almost seems that the 233 spec could be a test to see if your FIP rest has been tampered with.

 I don’t want to make this any longer than necessary, I tend to over-explain. Thanks for reading. I hope to finally get this figured out!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 01:38:55 by BOOB »

Benz Dr.

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2019, 17:36:58 »
From what I remember, 233 mm is a base measurement used if you don't have an alignment hole on the intake manifold. Since you do have an alignment hole, use that as your base measurement position. In all cases, you want both levers ( IP and throttle valve ) to sit firmly against their respective stops. Adjust everything to the rod going to your IP and then make sure that both levers are opening at the exact same time.  I put my finger on the IP lever and then I watch to see when the throttle valve opens. If the throttle valve opens later than the IP adjust the throttle valve rod a bit longer until both open at the same time.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

BOOB

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2019, 17:50:28 »
Gotcha! That makes sense. I really appreciate your reply, thank you for your time!

JamesL

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 19:36:49 »
Hopefully that makes your full membership worth every penny this year  :)

James L
RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

Garry

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 22:55:58 »
The very reason we have the Linkage Tour under Full Membership access.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 04:25:29 by Garry »
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Australia
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery
2005 MB A200
2008 MB SLK 55 AMG
2016 VW T6 4x4 pop top Camper

BOOB

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 23:54:58 »
Am I missing something here? Why does this feel like a guilt trip for not being a “full member”?

Garry

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2019, 04:24:39 »
BOOB,

Your questions are about information that is normally limited to Full Members.

We have the Linkage Tour under Full Membership access only and it is a key piece of information for the tuning setup of these vehicles.  It was put in the restricted area to “encourage” Associate Members to support the cost of running this Group and join, so a question on linkage adjustments causes some hesitation to responding for that reason.

At the present time , about one third of the Members help the Group in supporting the costs associated with running the Pagoda Group, with all positions on the Board of the Group being volunteers who run the Group, it’s membership, the Forum and the Tech Manual.
Another third regularly use the Forum but do not assist in the running costs and the last third very rarely access the Forum at all.

As a result of a recent questionnaire to Members, the whole access to the Forum and Tech Manual is currently under review by a sub committee and an announcement will to be made shortly once the review of access, posting and photo access is completed.  Hopefully before Christmas.

Garry
Membership Administrator
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Australia
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery
2005 MB A200
2008 MB SLK 55 AMG
2016 VW T6 4x4 pop top Camper

Benz Dr.

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2019, 16:11:53 »
So, I shouldn't answer questions like that?  :) Most of the time I don't but I felt that my response was light on detail and vague enough that anyone without a basic knowledge of how things work would still be lost anyway.

Not that I'm against this members only idea, but I'm not sure how we will balance the interests of our club against the interests ( read questions ) of newcomers. Rather than trying to cajole someone into joining, perhaps a little bit of help and then a simple statement of '' everything you need is in the full members area '' and leave it at that. Despite what may seem like an obvious and intuitive tech manual, there are still going to be people who will require assistance along the way. Hey, I've asked questions here too.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

BOOB

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2019, 16:15:02 »
Thank you for the explanation. Maybe I can add my opinions to the discussion as an outsider. Pardon my honesty, I’m very frank. In my experience, across just about the entire spectrum of automobiles on this planet (not trying to be cocky, I’m being very honest about this), their respective online forums are typically open for its registered (free of charge) members to share and discuss whatever they choose, as long as they stick to the general subject of the sub-forum that they’re posting in. Paid memberships typically grant access to discounts from sponsoring vendors and, in this case, tech articles or tech support that could be classified as an actual product or service. Being encouraged to not discuss  something as simple as a 5 minute fuel linkage setup is supposed to be a secret unless you’re a paid member, it feels like a joke. The main reason being that this very subject is highlighted and permanently lives at the top of this sub-forum. I can understand that I don’t have access to a well thought out list of instructions and detailed explanation of every aspect of a linkage system, that I’m sure took someone a great deal of time to assemble, but not being able to talk about it in general is weird. In this case, my first impression was very warm and positive. One of your most knowledgeable and respected members helped me out with a simple dilemma, as car guys (and girls) do. I feel obligated to try and give him my business if at all possible because of his assistance, as I usually do. I also felt that it wouldn’t hurt for me to maybe contribute to keeping this forum alive. Then I was hit with a pair of responses that left a bitter taste in my mouth. Neither were aggressive, but we’re definitely lacking finesse in the salesmanship department. I still appreciate the help I received from Mr Caron, and I still intend to contribute to this site for the sake of the other inquiring enthusiasts, but the warmth of a positive experience from a friendly community has left the building.

cfm65@me.com

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2019, 16:26:36 »
Hi Boob,
I have also experienced that 233 mm is not quite correct on my car and as the Doctor explained it is a good starting point.
By the way the “Linkage tour” is on the WWW for all to read.
Regards
Chris
28 Ford Model A Pickup
29 Chevy Phaeton
67 E Type FHC
67 250SL 5 speed
83 911SC
2015 VW T5 California Pop Top

BOOB

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2019, 16:31:40 »
I didn’t measure the finished product, but I’m nowhere close to the 233 spec. But as BenzDr explained, apparently that spec goes out the window since I have the alignment hole. All is well and it’s running great! Now, time to take it all apart to replace and restore the linkage system. I wanted to verify the proper tune and performance before I installed the new parts.

BOOB

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2019, 16:39:06 »
On a different note, I seem to have quite a bit of fuel contamination in my fresh oil. Ive been running a healthy dose of Techron in an attempt to restore some consistency in the fuel injector department, which it has. And quite well to be honest. I’ve heard that a healthy dose of fuel system cleaner can help contaminate your oil, this case is pretty bad. I regret taking a whiff through the oil fill hole yesterday, I’m still smelling gas in my nose. My compression readings are all about 105-110 psi which isn’t terrible. Blow by doesn’t seem to be a big problem in my case. I’m sure that as the injectors were intermittently sticking (my assumption, I fouled some plugs along the way) that a fair amount of fuel pushed past the rings. The motor is humming along and my current set of plugs are staying dry. Now that the tank of cleaner and gas is almost empty,  I’m about to add some fresh gas and swap the oil again. Hopefully this batch doesn’t get contaminated. If it does, I still have some work to do here.

Benz Dr.

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2019, 20:11:00 »
Those compression readings are quite low. It's very difficult to get a proper tune when certain parameters are that far out of spec. Your engine will run but it will never run all that well.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

JamesL

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2019, 22:33:50 »
BOOB
Apologies if my response lacked finesse and left a bitter taste. I confess to not having checked whether you were a full member or not. If the former, I really do hope you feel it has been worth the fee. If the latter, I encourage you to join up and help keep the place running in terms of cash but  it also takes sharing of questions, answers, experiences and time (as you have with your PSI post) to keep the place running/vibrant. My aim was not exclude, or make you feel unwelcome, or to accuse you of freeloading, or to discourage questions (or discourage folk like Dan to share his expertise).
I also confess to never having used the linkage tour nor other parts of the Full Membership ;D
James L
RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

Garry

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2019, 22:59:59 »
BOOB and Dan,

There are several ‘free’ 113 facebook page ( Mercedes Benz SL (W113) Pagoda  and also Mercedes Pagoda W113 Club ) where there is unlimited questions and answers asked and given, this International Group with its Tech Manual, magazines servers and insurance  ect is not a Facebook page and not without cost like the facebook page is and as such has paying members to support its on-going operation, insurances and incorporation fees etc where Facebook has none of those costs and is what BOOB is referring to. So whilst this Forum may look like some others it is in fact an incorporated Group with its own magazine and Pagoda Notes and not just an on-line Facebook Forum.


Sure, no problem asking questions and Dan feel free to answering them but when an Associate has been making use the Forum for years and then starts wanting answers that are obviously from our restricted area that they have not been able to enter ( and that can be searched on the www to get elsewhere) really pushes the buttons of some members who have supported the Group over many many years who then start to think, and ask via the moderators button, why do i bother, so yes we may gain some supporting members but we also lose some supporting members over the time as well.

The International Group is here to help every one, we try to be inclusive and try to keep Pagodas through out the world running, and all the Group asks for in doing this is a little bit of fairness and support in return. It’s not a big ,ask, the cost has not been changed in more than ten years and thanks to those that have supported the Group

And i must confess i have never used the Linkage Tour.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 00:39:28 by Garry »
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Australia
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery
2005 MB A200
2008 MB SLK 55 AMG
2016 VW T6 4x4 pop top Camper

BOOB

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Re: FIP linkage length contradiction, please help clarify
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 01:16:57 »
BOOB
Apologies if my response lacked finesse and left a bitter taste. I confess to not having checked whether you were a full member or not. If the former, I really do hope you feel it has been worth the fee. If the latter, I encourage you to join up and help keep the place running in terms of cash but  it also takes sharing of questions, answers, experiences and time (as you have with your PSI post) to keep the place running/vibrant. My aim was not exclude, or make you feel unwelcome, or to accuse you of freeloading, or to discourage questions (or discourage folk like Dan to share his expertise).
I also confess to never having used the linkage tour nor other parts of the Full Membership ;D

No apology necessary man! I appreciate you’re honesty. I apologize if I came across as bitter. We’re all here for a good reason, keeping these cars alive!