Author Topic: Changed Engine on my pagoda  (Read 10406 times)

Serkanacar

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Changed Engine on my pagoda
« on: September 19, 2018, 18:04:18 »
Hello

I own a 68 model year 280 sl pagoda and I am planing to restore it. What I realize recently is I think my Pagoda does not has a original factory engine. I think previous owners has changed the engine. And the engine is most probably 280 SE engine instead 280 SL which is completely the same engine. I understand this from the engine number which starts with 130 980 instead 983. Is anybody have an idea if this situation lowers the value of my pagoda? Is it still worth to restore it ?

Thank you

Cees Klumper

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2018, 02:57:03 »
Welcome! Yes, by all means do not let this deter you from restoring your car. Like you said the differences between the two types of engines are negligible, and the market typically does not care. Some potential buyers may want to get a car with an SL engine, but there are always plenty others. What's far more important is the condition of the car, which is in your hands.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
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Serkanacar

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2018, 12:23:48 »
thank you..

MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2018, 16:29:32 »
One quick and easy thing to check with may give you a hint on what is in there, look at the cylinder head.
It has a casting information on it, which for the W113 280SL will say "280SEL/SL". Other 280 engines say, like, 280SA for example.

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Pawel66

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2018, 16:44:49 »
What exactly is on cylinder head per type you have here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/CylinderHead

But if you say the engine number is printed on the block in a nice way and it starts with 130.980, then it is probably W111 block.
Pawel

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Chris_ATL

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2018, 17:23:28 »
I went/am going through the exact same thing... I've done a lot of research and it seems that numbers matching does really matter for historically significant cars or ones being sold as "never restored" ... but for the vast majority condition and quality count a lot more.


MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 18:02:49 »
On the left side of the head, between spark plug No5 and 6, my head has a casting ID like this.
It does not exactly concur with the info in the Tech Manual and indicating that SE and SL heads could indeed be different.
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 19:54:44 »
One quick and easy thing to check with may give you a hint on what is in there, look at the cylinder head.
It has a casting information on it, which for the W113 280SL will say "280SEL/SL". Other 280 engines say, like, 280SA for example.
[/quote

I've seen something different.  Early  280SL heads say '' 280 '' and late ones say '' 280SE/A ''   A 280SEL is a long body 108 sedan.

And if you really want to get particular, I suppose someone could change the block or head but it would still be the same 113 car.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
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MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2018, 12:11:47 »
Yes, it would be the same W113 car. All I am saying is, that the casting on my head indicates the 280SEL and 280SL had the same cylinder head. Different from all the other 280's, including SE.
I am currently hunting for a replacement head and I will look for one like the one I have.
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Shvegel

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2018, 20:48:23 »
Ouch! What hapened with your head?  Warped?

Benz Dr.

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2018, 21:16:53 »
Yes, it would be the same W113 car. All I am saying is, that the casting on my head indicates the 280SEL and 280SL had the same cylinder head. Different from all the other 280's, including SE.
I am currently hunting for a replacement head and I will look for one like the one I have.

Are you sure about that?  From what I've seen, the SE head is the same on Coupes, SL's, sedans, and 300SEL's. The blocks are slightly different between sedans and SL's and then there are early and late heads or blocks.  There are different casting numbers on cylinder heads which may also have small variations within the same basic part. Unless I've missed something?
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Shvegel

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2018, 21:40:29 »
Above the casting number is there compression ratio (8.5,9.5 etc)?

Benz Dr.

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2018, 22:35:11 »
On the left side of the head, between spark plug No5 and 6, my head has a casting ID like this.
It does not exactly concur with the info in the Tech Manual and indicating that SE and SL heads could indeed be different.

What you have there is a late 280SE cylinder head. Which car it may of been used on isn't that important but matching it to the correct block is.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2018, 00:24:53 »
What you have there is a late 280SE cylinder head. Which car it may of been used on isn't that important but matching it to the correct block is.

We are going in circles. Why is it a 280SE cylinder head when it says 280SEL/SL???
I have seen cylinder heads that say "280SE" right in the same spot.
It is the stock, original head on my 1970 280SL, serial-no 22774.
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MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2018, 00:26:23 »
Ouch! What hapened with your head?  Warped?

I appreciate all your guys keen eyes!!! What makes you say that??
The head is flat when checked with a straight edge. Maybe I missed something.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
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Mike Hughes

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2018, 01:31:42 »
I think it's more a matter curiosity about what is it you have discovered about your head that leads you to consider replacing it?  Warped? Burned valve seats? Coolant passage corrosion? Cracks?
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Shvegel

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2018, 04:00:21 »
Usually long heads arc up in the middle.  I just figured it was up too far or the head was below minimum thickness.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2018, 18:17:35 »
We straighten warped cylinder heads if possible. Generally speaking, if the bottom of the head is warped the top will be too, so both sides would need to be planed a bit. Minimum thickness is supped to be 84.00 mm, however, if the top of the head was milled that would lower your thickness but not affect your minimum clearances.
 The only way to really know if a cylinder head is still good to use is to check the intake valve to piston clearance. The minimum clearance is .9 mm and this is checked by turning the crankshaft to 5 degrees ATDC on number 1 piston. This is the point where the piston and intake valve come the closest. Use a dial gauge and push down on the intake valve until it hits the top of the piston. As long as your gauge reads more than .035'' or .9 mm you will be OK. I save the old head gasket for making this measurement as you would certainly not want to use a new one just to make this measurement.
Since most head milling also involves a valve job you can expect that the valve seats will also be cut deeper which will also give you a bit more clearance. Having said that, it's important to remember that the intake valves require a minimum recession of .5 mm and the crushed head gasket is roughly 2 mm so in most cases you should have plenty of valve to piston clearance. It's also important to keep the rocker geometry correct or you can wipe out a new set of valve guides very quickly. I like a couple of threads showing on the ball stud or at least right at the start of the threads. If you have to adjust almost to the bottom of the hex that's too far in and I would recommend placing a .015'' shim under each cam bearing. This will raise the camshaft which will then give you enough adjustment on the ball studs. The cam shims will also help to remove any excess slack in the timing chain.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Peter h

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2018, 19:52:08 »
A friend buy today a brand new head.
The early 280sl head have had only the 280 mark on it.
The other mark shows the compression, here 9.5 and 0701 shows the second generation.
He is a lucky boy, he only paid 500 euros for the head. The head was storage for 30 years.
Peter
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MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2018, 20:28:20 »
Interesting. My head shows a p/n 130 016 17 01 and compression of 9.0
The engine serial number is still the same as shown in the original title from December 1970 ( Germany required engine serial no's in the paperwork)
Was there a "lower compression" option available for some reason?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 20:32:33 by MikeSimon »
1970/71 280SL Automatic
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MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2018, 20:39:14 »
So, what head is this? It would obviously require a different head gasket than mine and not match the engine...??
1970/71 280SL Automatic
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2018, 20:48:24 »
The above picture shows a late 280SE/A cylinder head. Early 280SE or SL heads typically only had 280 on them. The 280SE/A head is the correct one for a 1970 280SL.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Peter h

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2018, 20:52:20 »
Mike
It's a late US head with lower compression.
Peter
08.68 280sl automatic white 717 G  blue MB Tex
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MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2018, 21:02:05 »
I am either not reading everything right or I am too stupid to get it.
If the 280SE/A head is correct for a 1970 (late) 280SL, what head do I have. Mine says 280SEL/SL and my car is as late as it can get, with a 22774 serial number and a delivery date of December 16, 1970.
The 280SE/A head has different shape combustion chambers and my head gasket would not work on it and I assume it would not match the engine.
Also, which head is the "low compression" U.S. version? My car is a German spec car.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
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MikeSimon

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Re: Changed Engine on my pagoda
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2018, 23:39:16 »
Here is some pictures of the 280SE/A head.  Notice the casting number of 130 016 32 01 is the same as your head.   


 ??? ??? No it is not. My casting-number is 130 016 17 01....

..and I am not sure about the combustion chamber. Here is a close-up of mine. It looks like the area around the intake valve is on the same plane as the head surface. The 280SE/A one on ebay has a cast-in recession around that. Is it possible that my head was machined down so far as to do away with the recession?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 23:53:01 by MikeSimon »
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner