Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Serkanacar on September 19, 2018, 18:04:18
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Hello
I own a 68 model year 280 sl pagoda and I am planing to restore it. What I realize recently is I think my Pagoda does not has a original factory engine. I think previous owners has changed the engine. And the engine is most probably 280 SE engine instead 280 SL which is completely the same engine. I understand this from the engine number which starts with 130 980 instead 983. Is anybody have an idea if this situation lowers the value of my pagoda? Is it still worth to restore it ?
Thank you
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Welcome! Yes, by all means do not let this deter you from restoring your car. Like you said the differences between the two types of engines are negligible, and the market typically does not care. Some potential buyers may want to get a car with an SL engine, but there are always plenty others. What's far more important is the condition of the car, which is in your hands.
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thank you..
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One quick and easy thing to check with may give you a hint on what is in there, look at the cylinder head.
It has a casting information on it, which for the W113 280SL will say "280SEL/SL". Other 280 engines say, like, 280SA for example.
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What exactly is on cylinder head per type you have here: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/CylinderHead
But if you say the engine number is printed on the block in a nice way and it starts with 130.980, then it is probably W111 block.
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I went/am going through the exact same thing... I've done a lot of research and it seems that numbers matching does really matter for historically significant cars or ones being sold as "never restored" ... but for the vast majority condition and quality count a lot more.
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On the left side of the head, between spark plug No5 and 6, my head has a casting ID like this.
It does not exactly concur with the info in the Tech Manual and indicating that SE and SL heads could indeed be different.
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One quick and easy thing to check with may give you a hint on what is in there, look at the cylinder head.
It has a casting information on it, which for the W113 280SL will say "280SEL/SL". Other 280 engines say, like, 280SA for example.
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I've seen something different. Early 280SL heads say '' 280 '' and late ones say '' 280SE/A '' A 280SEL is a long body 108 sedan.
And if you really want to get particular, I suppose someone could change the block or head but it would still be the same 113 car.
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Yes, it would be the same W113 car. All I am saying is, that the casting on my head indicates the 280SEL and 280SL had the same cylinder head. Different from all the other 280's, including SE.
I am currently hunting for a replacement head and I will look for one like the one I have.
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Ouch! What hapened with your head? Warped?
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Yes, it would be the same W113 car. All I am saying is, that the casting on my head indicates the 280SEL and 280SL had the same cylinder head. Different from all the other 280's, including SE.
I am currently hunting for a replacement head and I will look for one like the one I have.
Are you sure about that? From what I've seen, the SE head is the same on Coupes, SL's, sedans, and 300SEL's. The blocks are slightly different between sedans and SL's and then there are early and late heads or blocks. There are different casting numbers on cylinder heads which may also have small variations within the same basic part. Unless I've missed something?
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Above the casting number is there compression ratio (8.5,9.5 etc)?
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On the left side of the head, between spark plug No5 and 6, my head has a casting ID like this.
It does not exactly concur with the info in the Tech Manual and indicating that SE and SL heads could indeed be different.
What you have there is a late 280SE cylinder head. Which car it may of been used on isn't that important but matching it to the correct block is.
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What you have there is a late 280SE cylinder head. Which car it may of been used on isn't that important but matching it to the correct block is.
We are going in circles. Why is it a 280SE cylinder head when it says 280SEL/SL???
I have seen cylinder heads that say "280SE" right in the same spot.
It is the stock, original head on my 1970 280SL, serial-no 22774.
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Ouch! What hapened with your head? Warped?
I appreciate all your guys keen eyes!!! What makes you say that??
The head is flat when checked with a straight edge. Maybe I missed something.
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I think it's more a matter curiosity about what is it you have discovered about your head that leads you to consider replacing it? Warped? Burned valve seats? Coolant passage corrosion? Cracks?
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Usually long heads arc up in the middle. I just figured it was up too far or the head was below minimum thickness.
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We straighten warped cylinder heads if possible. Generally speaking, if the bottom of the head is warped the top will be too, so both sides would need to be planed a bit. Minimum thickness is supped to be 84.00 mm, however, if the top of the head was milled that would lower your thickness but not affect your minimum clearances.
The only way to really know if a cylinder head is still good to use is to check the intake valve to piston clearance. The minimum clearance is .9 mm and this is checked by turning the crankshaft to 5 degrees ATDC on number 1 piston. This is the point where the piston and intake valve come the closest. Use a dial gauge and push down on the intake valve until it hits the top of the piston. As long as your gauge reads more than .035'' or .9 mm you will be OK. I save the old head gasket for making this measurement as you would certainly not want to use a new one just to make this measurement.
Since most head milling also involves a valve job you can expect that the valve seats will also be cut deeper which will also give you a bit more clearance. Having said that, it's important to remember that the intake valves require a minimum recession of .5 mm and the crushed head gasket is roughly 2 mm so in most cases you should have plenty of valve to piston clearance. It's also important to keep the rocker geometry correct or you can wipe out a new set of valve guides very quickly. I like a couple of threads showing on the ball stud or at least right at the start of the threads. If you have to adjust almost to the bottom of the hex that's too far in and I would recommend placing a .015'' shim under each cam bearing. This will raise the camshaft which will then give you enough adjustment on the ball studs. The cam shims will also help to remove any excess slack in the timing chain.
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A friend buy today a brand new head.
The early 280sl head have had only the 280 mark on it.
The other mark shows the compression, here 9.5 and 0701 shows the second generation.
He is a lucky boy, he only paid 500 euros for the head. The head was storage for 30 years.
Peter
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Interesting. My head shows a p/n 130 016 17 01 and compression of 9.0
The engine serial number is still the same as shown in the original title from December 1970 ( Germany required engine serial no's in the paperwork)
Was there a "lower compression" option available for some reason?
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So, what head is this? It would obviously require a different head gasket than mine and not match the engine...??
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The above picture shows a late 280SE/A cylinder head. Early 280SE or SL heads typically only had 280 on them. The 280SE/A head is the correct one for a 1970 280SL.
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Mike
It's a late US head with lower compression.
Peter
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I am either not reading everything right or I am too stupid to get it.
If the 280SE/A head is correct for a 1970 (late) 280SL, what head do I have. Mine says 280SEL/SL and my car is as late as it can get, with a 22774 serial number and a delivery date of December 16, 1970.
The 280SE/A head has different shape combustion chambers and my head gasket would not work on it and I assume it would not match the engine.
Also, which head is the "low compression" U.S. version? My car is a German spec car.
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Here is some pictures of the 280SE/A head. Notice the casting number of 130 016 32 01 is the same as your head.
??? ??? No it is not. My casting-number is 130 016 17 01....
..and I am not sure about the combustion chamber. Here is a close-up of mine. It looks like the area around the intake valve is on the same plane as the head surface. The 280SE/A one on ebay has a cast-in recession around that. Is it possible that my head was machined down so far as to do away with the recession?
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First I apologise for the couple of false starts I had. I blame it on Google and Dyslexia.
Trying to track down the head gasket on EPC to see if there is a different one for your head than the SE/A. I am wondering where you engine number falls into this:
https://www.adsitco.com/parts/detail/Mercedes/head-gasket-set-130-980-to-026281-130-983-to-10-004596-to-12-007229/2156/
There may actually be 2 breaks in the engine lineup. The early square chamber to oval then a later one? Scroll down to application info.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-W108-W109-W113-280SEL-280SE-Cylinder-Head-Gasket-Set-Elring-1300103521-/350794105431
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Thank you for continuing trying to help shedding lights into my own void of knowledge, Shvegel!
The head gasket I need is the later one, the oval, not the square one. Are yo saying there are two oval ones?
My engine serial is 130.983-12-015405, so I would need gasket from engine 7230 (Automatic)
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So, after some of this discussion and input, I was afraid that someone had machined my cylinder head too far down, but then I saw this one on ebay and it looks exactly like mine as far as the combustion chamber is concerned, i.e.: without the recession around the intake valve. Although this head seems to require a square head gasket and the casting number is different.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-original-1-nice-cylinderhead-280SL-Pagode-W108-280SE-130-016-00-01/173007891476?hash=item284812ec14:g:53gAAOSwB3BaIDmd
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There seem to be a plethora of heads with different casting IDs out there. And there is no rhyme or reason as far as late or early heads. Most of you guys say the 280SL W113 head says "280SE/A" Mine says 280SEL/SL, and look what I found:
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I think I figured it out but this will probably be too much information. The earlier eBay head is indeed a square gasket head however notice the more open area around the exhaust valve where the spark plug is at. Your head is much more closed in and the pocket is deeper than the eBay head. Your head would require the oval gasket. I thought there might even be an obscure third gasket but since your serial number is within the range of the oval it doesn't matter you need the oval gasket.
There were a bunch of head changes right around 1970. Why? 1970 was a watershed year in terms of emission control regulation. That was when the US and Europe began regulating Hydrocarbon (HC) and Oxides of Nitrogen (NOX) emissions. Hydrocarbons are not super tuff to reduce at least at 1970 regulation levels. They simply leaned out the mixture and installed electronic ignition. NOX emissions are another bugger all together. In order to reduce NOX you have to reduce the temperature inside the combustion chamber. There are several ways to do this. Retard ignition timing, reduce static cylinder pressure by reducing compression and finally add or keep a little exhaust for the next ignition cycle. American cars basically attacked NOX with a sledehammer approach beginning with the 1971 model year. They dropped compression from 10 or 11 to one down to the 8.5 to one range and installed this neat little vacuum operated valve (EGR valve and yes I am kidding about neat) to feed exhaust into the intake manifold. The exhaust acted like a compressible spacer so you could have less fuel and air in the combustion chamber and a lower exhaust temperature.
Mercedes did it differently because they had to. the Americans for the most part had huge engines(Up to 7.4 litre) so the drop in power was noticable but still tolerable. Mercedes had 2.8 litres to work with. Here is what I see in the evolution of the cylinder heads. the eBay head was probably the best performance casting with good flow around the exhaust valve and a small combustion chamber(high compression). Beginning at the engine break in 1970 with the SL/A head they had to find a way to actually make the flow through the head worse so they could keep a little exhaust for the next firing of the cylinder. They started by tightening up the combustion chamber around the exhaust valve(shrouding) this would cause the engine to breathe more poorly. then they shortened the time when both the intake and exhaust valve were open (overlap) so they could limit how much the suction in the exhaust system (Scavenging) could pull the exhaust through the engine. At some point late in the run as your car was a Dec 1970 build they had another evolution to even more shrouding of the exhaust valve, elimination of the dished area of the chamber and a deeper chamber around the exhaust valve to lower compression. Notice on the SL/A and your head the compression ratio casting marks have been eliminated. They didn't want to advertise that they dropped compression.
What all that boils down to is that unlike most evolutions where things were made better each year Mercedes had to actually make there heads flow less well and they also had to drop compression as well. Square gasket heads will not work for you. The 280SL/A head would be a slightly better head for you but the SEL/SL head you have will work just fine. There is a 2 or 3 digit code on the rear of the camshaft. I am curious what it is?
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Thank you so much, Shvegel, - there can never be too much information! Your explanation is sound and probably as good as any.
I know I need the oval head gasket. I ordered one from ebay and when it came, it was the square one. When I compared it with the one I took off, I recognized it was wrong and I got probably one of the last oval ones from K&K. I am all set there.
The code on the camshaft is 02
My head does still have the compression mark, and guess what - it is 9.0. One thing I had been curious about. Your explanation would clarify that.
As far as the shape of the combustion chamber goes, I now have seen several earlier heads that do have the same look as mine. Notably the lack of a cast recession around the intake valve. Compared to the other heads that do have that, a design like that should actually have a higher compression ratio, because you compress the same displacement volume into a smaller combustion chamber. Oh, well.
Considering that the head on the car worked fine and the car was really running good before it was parked 23 years ago, I am in no hurry to change it. I would like to have a spare, though, just in case. that's why I am looking for one and am trying to find the correct one. It seems getting exactly what I have, with the same markings and same casting number will be next to impossible
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Looks like it. I just looked at my head and it shows 9.5 compression ratio. Your head has a smaller pocket but deeper. 02 cam is the highest performance one. I believe it matches the 09 cam but is hardened against wear.
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I am still trying to sort out the background of my "mysterious" cylinder head. It seems there was another thread a while ago where a member mentioned the same casting number that is shown on my head and some said it was a SL head, although that casting number is not listed as one in the Technical Manual.
Does anybody else have a head that has casting number 130 016 17 01 ?
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4650.0
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Hi,
I've owned all four years of 280SLs; the early ones, i.e., the '68, had a cylinder head casting number of "280", but I just saw another '68 last week with a casting number of "280 SE/A". Overall, most of the 280SLs that I've seen had a casting number of "280 SE/A" which could evidently be used on either an SE or SL motor. I've even been told that MB put these "280 SE/A" heads on SLs at the factory as these heads were compatible with either model.
Some other motor info I was given:
Differences between 280 SL and SE motors/blocks
1. the blocks are physically identical
2. SL tach drive
3. SL engine arms / motor mounts
4. may be difference in motor mounts, distributor, injection pump
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...and I am still looking for a definite answer where and when the head with SEL/SL and casting number 130 016 17 01 and 9.0 compression was used.
I don't argue that 280SE/A is a correct head for the SL and that early heads were just 280, but it looks to me that the list shown in the Technical manual is incomplete. I did not "photoshop" the picture of the my head.
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Google search "280SEL/SL"
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/mercedes-280sel-sl-m130-980-pagode-w113-sl-kompletter-motor/748253180-223-8780
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The guy is selling a complete motor, which, based on his description, may have the same head as mine. Interesting thing is, he says it had auto tranny.
Maybe that was the difference??
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This engine runs...?
Peter
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.../...Differences between 280 SL and SE motors/blocks.../...
The cover over the main coolant thermostat is different. Lower design on W113, compared to sedans and coupés.
Note: the "free" lid (cover) in the second picture has a threaded fitting at its top. This was there on late 280SL (M130 engines) only.
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This engine runs...?
Peter
The seller claims it ran before it was taken out of the car.
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Engine serial is 980 which is indeed a sedan. I think there is a picture of the head casting marks.
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Engine serial is 980 which is indeed a sedan. I think there is a picture of the head casting marks.
Good eye, Pat! It indeed shows in the picture of the FI pump 280SEL/SL. Just like mine!
If the seller was here, I would make him an offer. Wonder what he wants for it. He is asking for offers.
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And what kind of pump is it?
R18 pump on a 280se ?
Peter
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Peter:
Du bist in Deutschland. Du könntest den Motor kaufen in Teile zerlegen und mir den Zylinderkopf verkaufen…... 8) :o ;D ;D
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My friend Roman make him an offer.
He is waiting for an answer.
You need only this head?
Monday we went to Florida. But I thing it's to big. ;D
You must speak with Roman, maybe he can find this kind of head here in Germany.
Peter
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Who is Roman?
I would take the complete head without the camshaft.
Cam holders, valves, rocker arms, ball studs included.
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I would take the cam etc if it is stamped “02” on the end.