Finding the Red Car

[Garry]

Joe,

That would be a great bit of provenance on the car and photo if it turns out it is the one.  It certainly looks like a build/body number on the windscreen.

Hows the rebuild going.  My 230SL is in Melbourne at the moment, maybe we should get together for a coffee?

Garry

[getsmart]

Hi Garry be great to catch up soon....yeah would be great if its mine, certainly seems to be...trying not to get excited by it....
Enjoying the cold ?
Rebuild hasn't restarted yet except for an odd bit of tinkering...
I'll text you shortly or vice a versa !

Rgds, joe

[andyburns]

Keeps us posted here Joe.  I have a good feeling about it and am sure this will turn out in your favor. What a find.  My bobby prize will be knowing that my car was just a few ahead of your on the same line.    If they used a wide angle lens you could probably see it!

If you categorically discover that its yours are you going to keep it the same color.  When I thought it might have been mine I started having huge internal conflict over all the changes I have made.

[getsmart]

Haha Andy.....I was just scouring the photo to see one resembling your colour but I think you're right, its a few ahead which makes me wonder if they are consecutive numbers on the production line. I'd think not probably but on 2nd thoughts it is in Germany !! I couldn't see or make out any numbers on the windscreens of the other vehicles. Not sure if thats just because of the light.... the one behind "mine" looks like its destined for the Italian market if I remember correctly with the bllinkers added to the front quarter panel on the side.

There's a "Rauchen Verboten" sign hanging up in the background too, "no smoking", so its nice to know our cars weren't breathing in cigaraette smoke

Thats a good question Andy, I was already "torn" over colour choice and I definitely would have to consider keeping it original if it is indeed "the one" !

Don't worry you'll be the first to know...

Do any other readers think these are 1964 cars ? The tyres look a bit thinner and as I said in an earlier post I think 63/64 models were 5.5" tyres then after that were widened to 6"...

Cheers, Joe

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

All I know there are two nice ladies doing the final cleanup touches on my car (forth car after the nice red one) before it rolled of the assembly line I have the picture posted on my garage wall ... That's my story and I'm sticking to it ... HaHaHa ... Who ist to say or know it was not December 1968

~grin~

[Garry]

Joe,
Just having another close study of the photo, your data card shows that your car came without a hart top.  I think no hardtop for Australian cars was rare.

Note that cars have their hard tops already on in the photo so that also is just that little bit more of a pointer toward yours.  Certainly could have excluded yours if it came with hard top.

Garry

[66andBlue]

619- Halogen lamp unit with high beam/low beam fog light

Joe,
just a minor correction, code 619 is not a halogen lamp (didn't exist yet in 1964) but the following:
619: from 01.02.1963  to 31.08.1969     613 + 616
       613: from 01.02.1963    " LAMP UNIT, ASYMMETRICAL, L.H. TRAFFIC"
       616: from 01.02.1963  to 31.08.1969    " REAR TURN SIGNAL LAMPS, ORANGE - AUSTRALIA/ITALY/GREAT BRITAIN"
Unfortunately, it does not help your quest.

... which makes me wonder if they are consecutive numbers on the production line. I'd think not probably but on 2nd thoughts it is in Germany !! I couldn't see or make out any numbers on the windscreens of the other vehicles. Not sure if thats just because of the light...the one behind "mine" looks like its destined for the Italian market if I remember correctly with the bllinkers added to the front quarter panel on the side.

That is correct, it is an Italian car and behind that one is a French car with amber headlights.
I think I read somewhere that cars were lined up with consecutive 'production numbers' (which would 00297 for yours), but this may be total hogwash.

[andyburns]

Hey Joe,

More details specific to 230sl and early 250sl  is the chrome rear vision mirror.  The photo isn't quite high enough res to see if the rims have the welded lugs to hold on the dog dish caps.  I also agree with you on the wheels.   They look very thin.

[Garry]

The second production line behind has the trim rings and dog dishes on the cars so it is either 230 or early 250 production for sure.

[mbzse]

.../...The photo isn't quite high enough res to see if the rims have the welded lugs to hold on the dog dish caps../...

Very good, Andy! As I look at the high res version of this image, I can clearly make out that this car, and thus all the others behind, are fitted with the early 5,5" rims. This is identified by the three lugs (pins) on the wheel rim. See attached images.
The switch over to the 6" wide rims was at the end of July 1964, so, this image is taken before that date.
/Hans in Sweden
.

[getsmart]

Guys,

Thanks to Alfred Esser whp sent me a high resolution copy of the pic which shows the lugs that Andy mentioned. I'll try and post it but may not be able to due to its size.

A copy below of an email I received from Daimler-Benz.....I'm sure Dr Nils Beckmann wouldn't mind me posting...its basically saying the pic was loaded in their records in 1968 but with no known date of the photo.

This detective work, in my mind, is half the fun of these cars, and the provenance that goes along with it (as Garry mentioned).

-------
Dear Mr. Scicluna,
 
Thank you very much for your e-mail.
 
We would like to confirm that – according to our database – the photo was made (ca.) 1968. With other words: We do not know the exact date of production.
 
If you have any other questions on classic Mercedes-Benz cars, please feel free to contact us again.
 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards

Dr. Nils Beckmann
Kaufmännischer Sachbearbeiter Produktarchiv
Mercedes-Benz Classic und Kundencenter
 
Daimler AG
000-C107
70546 Stuttgart/Germany

[getsmart]

high resolution image....
still looking for reasons for this not to be my car...
seem to be running out of them... 

btw Garry my car was not delivered with a hardtop as you mentioned and its interesting to see other cars in the pic with hardtops on them, aqnother reason to believe its  mine...
in this image you can also see a number on the back of the rear vision mirror which could be a reflection from the windscreen, hard to tell...

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Dr. N. Beckmann writes.....

We would like to confirm that – according to our database – the photo was made (ca.) 1968. With other words: We do not know the exact date of production.

...... Very interesting .... So is he confirming those cars are all 280 SL models 

[Garry]

They cannot be ’68 cars, the second line have the 230/early 250 wheel trims. as Hans said the red car has the early wheel studs for the dog dishes so has to be before Jul ’64.

My reading of the MB letter is that they used / released the photo in 68 but they do not know when it was taken during the production.

[getsmart]

yes exactly how Garry interpreted it...

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Whatever date it is ... It's nice to have the picture knowing that our cars have rolled off those assembly lines and have been given this tender loving care by those fine people after being mostly hand build for there original owners. Now we own them and take tender loving care of them

[66andBlue]

....  but they do not know when it was taken during the production.

Garry,
absolutely correct. When one downloads the photo from the Daimler Media Archive it comes with the following caption:
"Finish eines Mercedes-Benz Typ 190 SL der Baureihe 121 im Werk Sindelfingen, 1956." = "Finishing a Mercedes type 190 SL model 121 at the Sindelfingen plant, 1956"
Although the ID number of the photo and the ID number this text match it is obvious that whoever scanned the original did not combine it with the correct text.
Sorting this out is not in the job description of a "Kaufmännischer Sachbearbeiter Produktarchiv". 

[getsmart]

Hello all,

I'm determined to discover if this is my car so I gave it some more thought, if thats even possible at all !

My car is 113 042 20 002726

113 - Pagoda shape
042 - 230sl
20  - 2=Right Hand Drive, 0=Manual

The 2nd digit on the windscreen appears to be either a 4 or a 7 but if we disregard that for a moment then leaves 10 possibilities including mine.
2026 to 2926

But there could also be 113 042 22 ?

22  - 2=Right Hand Drive, 2=Automatic

This could mean there are another 10 possibilities but the wiki says the numbers are all sequential so that implies there wouldn't be a 113 042 22 002726 since mine is 113 042 20 002726, I hope you're following me on this.

Anyway lets assume the worst case that 20 numbers exist.

I've sent the following request to Germany....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I own a 1964 230sl Pagoda, my car is 113042-20-002726 and the paint code is 568 which is signal red.


I am trying to determine if the car in the attached photo (the photo is from your archives) is actually my car. It matches the data card of my car exactly.

I recently discovered that by looking at the photo more closely that there is a number on the windscreen in the top right hand corner which appears to be the build number of the car. I'm trying to confirm this and if you have information on this too I'd be very pleased.

The number that can be seen on the windscreen is 2_26. The 2nd digit in the number I can't see in the picture because of the reflection. One thing that I’m fairly sure about is that the Pagodas in the picture are 1963/1964.

By the process of elimination though I can determine if it is my car and that is by checking the vehicle data cards of the other Pagodas in that range 2x26 for 113042-20- and 113042-22.

I'd like to know if you can check the following vehicle data cards and tell me if any and which ones have paint code 568 ?

113042-20-002026
113042-20-002126
113042-20-002226
113042-20-002326
113042-20-002426
113042-20-002526
113042-20-002626
113042-20-002826
113042-20-002926
and
113042-22-002026
113042-22-002126
113042-22-002226
113042-22-002326
113042-22-002426
113042-22-002526
113042-22-002626
113042-22-002826
113042-22-002926
 
And if any of them have paint code 568 then do any of those ones have soft top code 720 - black soft top ?

Kindest Regards,

-------------------------------

I received the following reply so I'm patiently waiting 

--------------------------------
Dear Joseph,

Thank you very much for your e-mail.

We have forwarded your request to the Mercedes-Benz Classic Archives and Collection.
The colleague in charge will contact you as soon as possible.

Please note that it could take some time to process your request.

Thank you for your patience in advance.

Kind regards,

Mercedes-Benz Classic Kundencenter /TAC
___________________________________
Mercedes-Benz Museum GmbH
HPC P111
70546 Stuttgart

Tel:   +49 (0) 711 / 17 30 000
Fax:  +49 (0) 711 / 17 30 400
E-Mail: classic@daimler.com

Besucheradresse:
Mercedesstr. 100
70372 Stuttgart

[getsmart]

Hello all,

My quest to find out if that car is mine has hit a stumbling block or 2.

My latest email to the Classic Centre in the US (thanks to Garry for the contact) was answered with a very direct "we cannot possibly determine if that car is yours" . Even though I explained I wasn't asking them to do that. They are in no way interested in checking 9 other data cards to just cancel them out if they did not match the car in the photo or mine, I'm not even sure they are listening to what I'm asking.

If any members live near the Classic Centre in Irvine, CA, perhaps one might be interested in helping me with this piece of detective work ! Face to face might be more effective !

Regards all,

Joe

[batman]

Joe, would you not consider to ask for an appropriate contact person at the MB centre in Germany and telephone them to discuss. Working directly with many Germans for many years I am surprised of their response. I would conclude that the person has not understood via your long initial email, exactly what you want. Telephone much better!

[getsmart]

Hi Mark,

Thats my conclusion too. Initially I was directed to the Claasic Centre in Germany and then eventually back to the US. But yes I agree that a telephone call might help. According to Garry Marks that contact in the US at the Classic Centre is usually very helpful. In my last email to him I asked of I could call him but he didn't respond. Perhaps thats my next step...thanks for the response

Rgds, Joe

[RobSirg]

My money's on you Joe,

You have so many bases covered. RHD in that colour combo without a hardtop? I'm thinking most RHD's would have been delivered with hardtops - except for a few to Australia or Sth Africa perhaps.

The tread pattern on the tire looks distinctive - can anyone match that to your Phonix tyre
( then again possibly all 113's were fitted with the same tires?)

Rob

[getsmart]

Hi Rob thanks for your comments. Thats a good point about cross matching the tyre for the period. I'll look into it. If any other member wants to chime in nows your chance

You know the mind can play tricks on us if we want to believe something we ignore the facts and logic. But in this case that car in the picture is an exact match for mine. I'm going to have to call the Classic Centre as Mark suggested and try and talk to Garry's contact. It's also interesting that it's the only car in the picture with a number hand written on the windscreen. The picture implies (with the car appearing to be at the very front of the assembly line) that it's at final tick off stage and thats why the number is there...

Rgds,

Joe

[49er]

They look like Continentals to me.
John

[Paul & Dolly]

Could it also be that there is information on the two cars behind the red one..... that could be checked against sequential number, maybe.

The white one seems to have the small round Italian side marker lights, and the dark one may have yellow headlamp bulbs for France ?

good luck

Paul