Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: andyburns on November 18, 2013, 19:41:58
-
Could it be? I have seen this factory photo a hundred times and the more I have learnt about it the more I wonder.... could this be my car? Up until recently I thought it was a long shot but I happened to stumble across the same photo in a very comprehensive pagoda history book while visiting a good friend who also has a 230sl. The book talked specifically about the photo and through the observable features of the car date it to early 64.
In common with mine is
1) the approximate date, mine being very early March 64
2) the car is RHD
3) the light cream interior
4) the exterior color
Given that very few RHD cars were made, approx 10% of the entire production run, and all these other factors I cannot help but wonder. I am sure the law of probability may be on my side. Wouldn't it be amazing.
I think if I could get someone to identify the color of the car in the photo as light red would even further narrow it down. 519 was an unusual color. I have never seen one in this color and the car was repainted in gold before my ownership so I have no reference. The car in the photo is not the usual signal red but a different shade I think. What do you guy recon?
-
Looks like 568H to me.
-
Hi Garry, I contemplated that as well but think the red in the picture has more of an orange hue to it. I dont think the color chits on this site are necessarily 100% accurate as well. I took a photo of the only 'virgin' paint on my car under the instrument cluster cowel. It has never been exposed to UV and has the same reasonable high quality finish that the exterior probably bore when it was new. The color just doesn't look like the 519 chit on this site. I carefully took a series of photos of this paint before I covered it over and selected on photo which as accurately represented the color as possible. I have laid it along side the factory production photo for you to see what you think.
-
Agree, I had some difficulty a few years ago with the colours that were in the Tech Manual and what appeared on your screen as they will differ depending on how you have your computer set up, brand, etc
It s a great thought it could be the same now. You need the date of the photo that would really narrow it down a lot.
Garry
-
Well Andy..., :-\
I guess no.
First of all you needed to find out the definite day of this photo and even better the car's VIN. "Early 1964" doesn't say much because that is between 2 Jan 1964 and 31 May 1964 or so... :o
However, "reading" your datacard provides more insight. ;)
Does that 519 car on the factory pic has an aerial? Hard to see. Your car had since it was factory-equipped with a Becker unit (most likely Grand Prix or so).
But:
1) Your car was delivered with hard top (code 41-6); that's missing on the factory pic and that does not make sense if the car on the factory picture were yours.
2) Your car was delivered with whitewall tires (code 64-1) which the factory hubcap-less RHD car does not have
3) The factory car doesn't have a jump seat which your car has according to the data card (code 56-5).
So..., - sad to say so - but the car on the factory picture is clearly not your car. :'(
Sorry for the distressing news...
Achim
-
Aw Achim, I compliment you on your knowledge of the datacards. Masterful! Wouldn't it have been fantastic if you did discover you had something neat though.
-
Andy it looks like Signal Red to me, could it be mine ?
Everything else matches in color...or is the trim different ? hmmmm....
Date on my data card is 26 March 1964
Mine
Engine: 127981-20-002463
Transmission: 002566
568- Paint, Signal Red
119- Interior Trim, White-Grey MB-Tex
401- Single seats
461- Instruments, in English
525- 1 kg lacquer
551- Steering wheel, ivory-colored
619- Halogen lamp unit with high beam/low beam fog light
621- Export license plate (elimination of license plate molding)
681- Instruction manual in English
720- Folding top fabric, Black
329-Mode of packing VE IV
Front left axle- 033452
Front right axle- 033434
Rear axle- 002883
Steering box- 214383
Wheel- 5,5J x 14H
Tire- 185 x 14 Phonix
Rgds, Joe
-
Joe, why don't you post your data card up for the Achim to look at. He seems as if he has a fantastic eye for detail so may be able to help. Also as Garry pointed out it could very well be Signal Red. I think that given your car didn't ship with a hard top it even further enhances your chances. I don't think we will ever get an exact date or chassis number but I do agree your one is stacking up as a very strong contender.
-
Joe,, Show us your data card, it lists all the options that were fitted ex factory. I missed Andy's DC picture, was only looking at the Car ::)
Garry
-
Why dont we start up a new thread dedicated to finding this little red beauty. I think it would be interesting and would definitely make someones day if we were successful.
-
Andy/Garry/Achim/Gents n gals, my data card, it would be fascinating to discover the identity of that car !
and a link to the paint codes for those interested
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/PaintCodes
Rgds, Joe
-
Here's my data card....I posted this earlier but it disappeared ? hmmmm....
Wouldn't it be fantastic to discover the history on that "signal red" pagoda !
Rgds, Joe
-
Hey Joe, I think Gary has spawned this thread and started a brand new topic just for finding the 'little read head'. If you go back to the general group you will find it at the top of the list. Garry can you please clean up the last couple of posts and keep this thread clean. I probably should have separated it to begin with. Cheers Andy
-
I think you have a jolly good show. I cant wait til Achim gets his mitts on this one for analysis!!! If we can track it down to your car Joe you owe me a beer. Make sure its a steinlarger none of that terrible xxxx
-
Keep in mind that data cards include key codes! If I were to post mine, I'd obliterate them.
-
Kevin,
The car is an Australian car, in fact a local one near to me, I think I will go get some keys and nick it!! Probably would be impossible to get rid of the car and probably the spares without getting caught due to the rarity of them.
Bottom line, have never heard of this happening in this country. Some of our members have had cars/parts stolen in LA and elsewhere I believe. No doubt in twenty years we may get to be like USA, we seem to do so with everything else. Meanwhile, I must remember to lock the house up some times I am away!!!!!!!! My Pagoda is sitting in my shed 80 km away when I am not there with keys in the ignition as well :o
;D ;D
Garry
-
Haha I see that Garry HAS been at work ! Mystery solved !!! At least my disappearing posts mystery !!
Good luck stealing mine ! In a thousand bits with a completely stripped body !
But it is a good point and eventually I might pull the data card pic down but will wait for some responses..I could black out the key code info too...
Andy I'll be in Wellington in Feb perhaps I might have to drive up and buy you that beer ! And peek at your car whilst I'm there !!! ;D
Rgds, Joe
-
Joe if you fly up from Wellington I can pick you up at the airport in either my 108 or fingers crossed a newly commissioned 113. That beer sounds awesome.
Needless to say after you find out your little girl is actually the legendary 'factory photo red head maiden' you might not want to be seen in such lowly company ;)
-
Kevin,
The car is an Australian car, in fact a local one near to me, I think I will go get some keys and nick it!! Probably would be impossible to get rid of the car and probably the spares without getting caught due to the rarity of them.
Bottom line, have never heard of this happening in this country. Some of our members have had cars/parts stolen in LA and elsewhere I believe. No doubt in twenty years we may get to be like USA, we seem to do so with everything else. Meanwhile, I must remember to lock the house up some times I am away!!!!!!!! My Pagoda is sitting in my shed 80 km away when I am not there with keys in the ignition as well :o
;D ;D
Garry
Garry...you certainly brought me back down memory lane. Growing up in "the suburbs" in western Massachusetts I recall being in elementary school and not locking the doors to the house unless we were going to be away for en extended period. Fast forward to the 1990's, I had left my Pontiac 6000 in my parents' driveway overnight to borrow my dad's van, only to have it stolen and taken for a "joy ride" (thinking now who would get any joy out of riding in a Pontiac 6000...perhaps it was because it was an "LE").
How times have changed. And now when we leave our everyday car in a parking lot to go into a store, my wife always asks: "Did you lock it"?
-
Kevin,
Meanwhile, I must remember to lock the house up some times I am away!!!!!!!!
;D ;D
Garry
Garry,
This reminded me of 1984 when I spend almost 4 months on business in your fine country. I traveled with the President of a Perth Organization from Adelaide to Perth and he invited me for the weekend to his villa since our project was delayed. Anyway it was a Friday evening when we arrived at his home and he said that he and his family would be attending a Saturday wedding and I should make myself at home and take one of the cars to go sightseeing. When I ask him for the house keys he simply said "We never lock the house and you find the car keys over there"
I remember it well it was when the America's Cup was stolen that was won for the first time in 1983 by Australia. He also took me to the see the cup and the winning boat … oh how time flies It seams like it was only yesterday …
-
Hi Andy and others....
Do you have the details of the books and publications of where that photo came from ? and you mentioned that the photo was accompanied by an early 1964 date ? and if anyone has any contacts within Mercedes or the clubs I might try do some further investigative work but it would be good to begin with some possible names on who to begin with. Perhaps I'd begin with the author of that comprehensive book that your friend mentioned....
Rgds, Joe
-
Hey joe. I am down country at the moment. When I get home I will try and get the isbn number of the book for you. Give me a couple more days
-
Hi Andy,
I ended up contacting Daimler-Benz and I couldn't believe it I actually received an answer back. They said that the photo of that Red Pagoda coming off the production line was entered into the database in 1968 but they couldn't verify the identity of that car or the year of the photo itself. We're still emailing back and forth....
BUT !!
I started studying the picture more closely and in the top right hand corner of the windscreen is a number, which to me looks like the build nunber of the car. This is where it gets interesting. The numbers that I can make out are 2 26, can't make out the 2nd digit but checking with photoshop and altering contrast the 2nd digit appears to contain a vertical line. I think its a 7 which if so is the build number of my car, last 4 digits, 2726 !!! Could it really be mine ? Its becoming more likely....but I'm still suspicious so more checking needed !
The tyres on the car also appear to be thinner, 5.5" which also puts it in the 63/64 range....see thread http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2133.0
Do you or anyone else think those tyres look like 5.5 rather than 6" ?
Anyone who knows any other cosmetic differences and can help identify this car as an early 1964 car please chime in here !
The chrome immediately behind the upholstered pad (part of the softop cover) is also an indicator for an early Pagoda from what I;ve read here.... but its hard to see that in the photo...
Joe :)
-
Joe, thats awesome news.
I am dead envious and wish like hell it was my car. Can you query the factory specifically on the numbers on the screen. If they confirm they are the production number then I am with you in being almost certain its yours. You could get them to go and check on all the other cars in the range ie 2716,36.46,56,66,76,86,96. Process of elimination with simple attributes like color would probably exclude all the other combinations.
If your right you can lay claim to a pretty awesome piece of factory history. I would be cranking up the investigation.
-
Hi Andy,
Have already asked about the numbers on the screen (are they the build number of the car) and am awaiting a reply and as for the the process of elimination I intend to ask the classic centre in the US if there are any other pagodas ending in "2x26" matching my data card.
I don't actually believe it myself even though I've been telling my kids its it !!! Being in engineering I'm looking for conclusive evidence or don't like to draw early conclusions !
But thanks to you if it is !
I see the engine cleanup is well on its way, won't be long now Andy ! Its been so cold here I don't want to even touch a piece of metal !
Cheers, Joe
-
Joe,
That would be a great bit of provenance on the car and photo if it turns out it is the one. It certainly looks like a build/body number on the windscreen.
Hows the rebuild going. My 230SL is in Melbourne at the moment, maybe we should get together for a coffee?
Garry
-
Hi Garry be great to catch up soon....yeah would be great if its mine, certainly seems to be...trying not to get excited by it....
Enjoying the cold ?
Rebuild hasn't restarted yet except for an odd bit of tinkering...
I'll text you shortly or vice a versa ! :)
Rgds, joe
-
Keeps us posted here Joe. I have a good feeling about it and am sure this will turn out in your favor. What a find. My bobby prize will be knowing that my car was just a few ahead of your on the same line. If they used a wide angle lens you could probably see it!
If you categorically discover that its yours are you going to keep it the same color. When I thought it might have been mine I started having huge internal conflict over all the changes I have made.
-
Haha Andy.....I was just scouring the photo to see one resembling your colour but I think you're right, its a few ahead which makes me wonder if they are consecutive numbers on the production line. I'd think not probably but on 2nd thoughts it is in Germany !! I couldn't see or make out any numbers on the windscreens of the other vehicles. Not sure if thats just because of the light.... the one behind "mine" looks like its destined for the Italian market if I remember correctly with the bllinkers added to the front quarter panel on the side.
There's a "Rauchen Verboten" sign hanging up in the background too, "no smoking", so its nice to know our cars weren't breathing in cigaraette smoke ;)
Thats a good question Andy, I was already "torn" over colour choice and I definitely would have to consider keeping it original if it is indeed "the one" !
Don't worry you'll be the first to know...
Do any other readers think these are 1964 cars ? The tyres look a bit thinner and as I said in an earlier post I think 63/64 models were 5.5" tyres then after that were widened to 6"...
Cheers, Joe
-
All I know there are two nice ladies doing the final cleanup touches on my car (forth car after the nice red one) before it rolled of the assembly line I have the picture posted on my garage wall ... That's my story and I'm sticking to it ... HaHaHa ... Who ist to say or know it was not December 1968
~grin~
-
Joe,
Just having another close study of the photo, your data card shows that your car came without a hart top. I think no hardtop for Australian cars was rare.
Note that cars have their hard tops already on in the photo so that also is just that little bit more of a pointer toward yours. Certainly could have excluded yours if it came with hard top.
Garry
-
619- Halogen lamp unit with high beam/low beam fog light
Joe,
just a minor correction, code 619 is not a halogen lamp (didn't exist yet in 1964) but the following:
619: from 01.02.1963 to 31.08.1969 613 + 616
613: from 01.02.1963 " LAMP UNIT, ASYMMETRICAL, L.H. TRAFFIC"
616: from 01.02.1963 to 31.08.1969 " REAR TURN SIGNAL LAMPS, ORANGE - AUSTRALIA/ITALY/GREAT BRITAIN"
Unfortunately, it does not help your quest.
... which makes me wonder if they are consecutive numbers on the production line. I'd think not probably but on 2nd thoughts it is in Germany !! I couldn't see or make out any numbers on the windscreens of the other vehicles. Not sure if thats just because of the light...the one behind "mine" looks like its destined for the Italian market if I remember correctly with the bllinkers added to the front quarter panel on the side.
That is correct, it is an Italian car and behind that one is a French car with amber headlights.
I think I read somewhere that cars were lined up with consecutive 'production numbers' (which would 00297 for yours), but this may be total hogwash.
-
Hey Joe,
More details specific to 230sl and early 250sl is the chrome rear vision mirror. The photo isn't quite high enough res to see if the rims have the welded lugs to hold on the dog dish caps. I also agree with you on the wheels. They look very thin.
-
The second production line behind has the trim rings and dog dishes on the cars so it is either 230 or early 250 production for sure.
-
.../...The photo isn't quite high enough res to see if the rims have the welded lugs to hold on the dog dish caps../...
Very good, Andy! As I look at the high res version of this image, I can clearly make out that this car, and thus all the others behind, are fitted with the early 5,5" rims. This is identified by the three lugs (pins) on the wheel rim. See attached images.
The switch over to the 6" wide rims was at the end of July 1964, so, this image is taken before that date.
/Hans in Sweden
.
-
Guys,
Thanks to Alfred Esser whp sent me a high resolution copy of the pic which shows the lugs that Andy mentioned. I'll try and post it but may not be able to due to its size.
A copy below of an email I received from Daimler-Benz.....I'm sure Dr Nils Beckmann wouldn't mind me posting...its basically saying the pic was loaded in their records in 1968 but with no known date of the photo.
This detective work, in my mind, is half the fun of these cars, and the provenance that goes along with it (as Garry mentioned).
-------
Dear Mr. Scicluna,
Thank you very much for your e-mail.
We would like to confirm that – according to our database – the photo was made (ca.) 1968. With other words: We do not know the exact date of production.
If you have any other questions on classic Mercedes-Benz cars, please feel free to contact us again.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards
Dr. Nils Beckmann
Kaufmännischer Sachbearbeiter Produktarchiv
Mercedes-Benz Classic und Kundencenter
Daimler AG
000-C107
70546 Stuttgart/Germany
-
high resolution image....
still looking for reasons for this not to be my car...
seem to be running out of them... ;D
btw Garry my car was not delivered with a hardtop as you mentioned and its interesting to see other cars in the pic with hardtops on them, aqnother reason to believe its mine...
in this image you can also see a number on the back of the rear vision mirror which could be a reflection from the windscreen, hard to tell...
-
Dr. N. Beckmann writes.....
We would like to confirm that – according to our database – the photo was made (ca.) 1968. With other words: We do not know the exact date of production.
...... Very interesting .... So is he confirming those cars are all 280 SL models ???
-
They cannot be ’68 cars, the second line have the 230/early 250 wheel trims. as Hans said the red car has the early wheel studs for the dog dishes so has to be before Jul ’64. ???
My reading of the MB letter is that they used / released the photo in 68 but they do not know when it was taken during the production.
-
yes exactly how Garry interpreted it... :)
-
Whatever date it is ... It's nice to have the picture knowing that our cars have rolled off those assembly lines and have been given this tender loving care by those fine people after being mostly hand build for there original owners. Now we own them and take tender loving care of them :)
-
.... but they do not know when it was taken during the production.
Garry,
absolutely correct. When one downloads the photo from the Daimler Media Archive it comes with the following caption:
"Finish eines Mercedes-Benz Typ 190 SL der Baureihe 121 im Werk Sindelfingen, 1956." = "Finishing a Mercedes type 190 SL model 121 at the Sindelfingen plant, 1956"
Although the ID number of the photo and the ID number this text match it is obvious that whoever scanned the original did not combine it with the correct text.
Sorting this out is not in the job description of a "Kaufmännischer Sachbearbeiter Produktarchiv". ;)
-
Hello all,
I'm determined to discover if this is my car so I gave it some more thought, if thats even possible at all !
My car is 113 042 20 002726
113 - Pagoda shape
042 - 230sl
20 - 2=Right Hand Drive, 0=Manual
The 2nd digit on the windscreen appears to be either a 4 or a 7 but if we disregard that for a moment then leaves 10 possibilities including mine.
2026 to 2926
But there could also be 113 042 22 ?
22 - 2=Right Hand Drive, 2=Automatic
This could mean there are another 10 possibilities but the wiki says the numbers are all sequential so that implies there wouldn't be a 113 042 22 002726 since mine is 113 042 20 002726, I hope you're following me on this.
Anyway lets assume the worst case that 20 numbers exist.
I've sent the following request to Germany....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I own a 1964 230sl Pagoda, my car is 113042-20-002726 and the paint code is 568 which is signal red.
I am trying to determine if the car in the attached photo (the photo is from your archives) is actually my car. It matches the data card of my car exactly.
I recently discovered that by looking at the photo more closely that there is a number on the windscreen in the top right hand corner which appears to be the build number of the car. I'm trying to confirm this and if you have information on this too I'd be very pleased.
The number that can be seen on the windscreen is 2_26. The 2nd digit in the number I can't see in the picture because of the reflection. One thing that I’m fairly sure about is that the Pagodas in the picture are 1963/1964.
By the process of elimination though I can determine if it is my car and that is by checking the vehicle data cards of the other Pagodas in that range 2x26 for 113042-20- and 113042-22.
I'd like to know if you can check the following vehicle data cards and tell me if any and which ones have paint code 568 ?
113042-20-002026
113042-20-002126
113042-20-002226
113042-20-002326
113042-20-002426
113042-20-002526
113042-20-002626
113042-20-002826
113042-20-002926
and
113042-22-002026
113042-22-002126
113042-22-002226
113042-22-002326
113042-22-002426
113042-22-002526
113042-22-002626
113042-22-002826
113042-22-002926
And if any of them have paint code 568 then do any of those ones have soft top code 720 - black soft top ?
Kindest Regards,
-------------------------------
I received the following reply so I'm patiently waiting :)
--------------------------------
Dear Joseph,
Thank you very much for your e-mail.
We have forwarded your request to the Mercedes-Benz Classic Archives and Collection.
The colleague in charge will contact you as soon as possible.
Please note that it could take some time to process your request.
Thank you for your patience in advance.
Kind regards,
Mercedes-Benz Classic Kundencenter /TAC
___________________________________
Mercedes-Benz Museum GmbH
HPC P111
70546 Stuttgart
Tel: +49 (0) 711 / 17 30 000
Fax: +49 (0) 711 / 17 30 400
E-Mail: classic@daimler.com
Besucheradresse:
Mercedesstr. 100
70372 Stuttgart
-
Hello all,
My quest to find out if that car is mine has hit a stumbling block or 2.
My latest email to the Classic Centre in the US (thanks to Garry for the contact) was answered with a very direct "we cannot possibly determine if that car is yours" . Even though I explained I wasn't asking them to do that. They are in no way interested in checking 9 other data cards to just cancel them out if they did not match the car in the photo or mine, I'm not even sure they are listening to what I'm asking.
If any members live near the Classic Centre in Irvine, CA, perhaps one might be interested in helping me with this piece of detective work ! Face to face might be more effective !
Regards all,
Joe
-
Joe, would you not consider to ask for an appropriate contact person at the MB centre in Germany and telephone them to discuss. Working directly with many Germans for many years I am surprised of their response. I would conclude that the person has not understood via your long initial email, exactly what you want. Telephone much better!
-
Hi Mark,
Thats my conclusion too. Initially I was directed to the Claasic Centre in Germany and then eventually back to the US. But yes I agree that a telephone call might help. According to Garry Marks that contact in the US at the Classic Centre is usually very helpful. In my last email to him I asked of I could call him but he didn't respond. Perhaps thats my next step...thanks for the response :)
Rgds, Joe
-
My money's on you Joe,
You have so many bases covered. RHD in that colour combo without a hardtop? I'm thinking most RHD's would have been delivered with hardtops - except for a few to Australia or Sth Africa perhaps.
The tread pattern on the tire looks distinctive - can anyone match that to your Phonix tyre
( then again possibly all 113's were fitted with the same tires?)
Rob
-
Hi Rob thanks for your comments. Thats a good point about cross matching the tyre for the period. I'll look into it. If any other member wants to chime in nows your chance :)
You know the mind can play tricks on us if we want to believe something we ignore the facts and logic. But in this case that car in the picture is an exact match for mine. I'm going to have to call the Classic Centre as Mark suggested and try and talk to Garry's contact. It's also interesting that it's the only car in the picture with a number hand written on the windscreen. The picture implies (with the car appearing to be at the very front of the assembly line) that it's at final tick off stage and thats why the number is there...
Rgds,
Joe
-
They look like Continentals to me.
John
-
Could it also be that there is information on the two cars behind the red one..... that could be checked against sequential number, maybe.
The white one seems to have the small round Italian side marker lights, and the dark one may have yellow headlamp bulbs for France ?
good luck
Paul
-
Hi all its been a long while since I posted on this subject and finally I received the best news I could hope for. I ended up sending an email to the Mercedes Australia/Pacific CEO (using some clever detective work to determine his email address) who passed on my request of assistance to the Head of Media Relations and Product Communications. He contacted the Classic Centre in Germany.
I basically asked if they could check the data cards as per below for Paint Code 568 Signal Red and they came back with this reply which has been translated from German.
113042-20-002026 - check this
113042-20-002126 - check this
113042-20-002226 - check this
113042-20-002326 - check this
113042-20-002426 - check this
113042-20-002526 - check this
113042-20-002626- check this
113042-20-002726 - (this is mine)
113042-20-002826 - check this
113042-20-002926 - check this
The Classic Centre answer....
“We checked on the below listed VINs. None of those have a data card containing the paint code, besides the one of ‘the owner’. That’s good news, the last little doubt is, whether the chalk letters on the windscreen mean the last digits of the chassis number. Contemporary witnesses are no more available.”
This reply is enough for me to be convinced that this is my car. What are the chances of that happening? A big thankyou for Andy Burns for being the man who got me started on this search.
I'll now restore the car to the original specs.
Rgds to all, Joe
PS. And thanks to Garry Marks for unlocking this old thread!!!
-
That's awesome new. I always was sure it was yours. I would love to see some recent photos of your car. What an awesome piece of history!
-
That's awesome new. I always was sure it was yours. I would love to see some recent photos of your car. What an awesome piece of history!
Andy I've attached a few photos - the body is on a rotisserie and almost ready to paint, has been in that state for more than 5 years :) nothing exciting....
-
Getsmart
Sure seems like the red car very well might be yours. Nice work getting Mercedes to check the other VINs. Pretty cool.
-
I remember the excitement thinking that that car in that photo may have been mine. And the disappointment finding out that it wasn't. Is an absolute iconic 113 photo and I'm so happy that one of our members has discovered after so long that his car is the one featured. An absolute superb piece of Mercedes photographic history saluting the 113 history. I really hope that this confirmation has given you the urge to press on and finish your car back to factory standards. If there's anything I can do to help please call on me.
-
I remember the excitement thinking that that car in that photo may have been mine. And the disappointment finding out that it wasn't. Is an absolute iconic 113 photo and I'm so happy that one of our members has discovered after so long that his car is the one featured. An absolute superb piece of Mercedes photographic history saluting the 113 history. I really hope that this confirmation has given you the urge to press on and finish your car back to factory standards. If there's anything I can do to help please call on me.
Yes Andy I'm sorry it wasn't yours, you've given so much to the forum. I think I could speak for all here that we rode every bump, every low and every high with you because you took so much time to keep us involved. That committment couldn't have been easy! And so pleased though that by some trillion to 1 chance that its mine - who could ever have known! And its all thanks to you! If you were female I'd kiss you on the lips! :-* :) well you get the gist!
-
Getsmart
Sure seems like the red car very well might be yours. Nice work getting Mercedes to check the other VINs. Pretty cool.
Thanks Kampala - more than very well might be mine - by process of elimination there can be little doubt - and I wasn't willing to say that until I had those data cards checked!
-
Joe was asking last night about the photo of this that was in I believe the Laurence Meredith Mercedes book but not sure as i cannot access my books that are in storage at the moment due to house renovations.
Can others have a look at their collections and let Joe know what publication the photo is in.
-
I am sure the picture is represented in multiple publications but it can be found in the "Mercedes-Benz , SL W113 Series, 1963 - 1971, by Brian Long". Page 115. The underlying caption advises that the picture was used in the 250 SL catalogue.
Norm
Added: I also found the picture in "Mercedes W113 The Complete Story by Myles Kornblatt". Page 82. The caption mentions: "The end of the line at the Sindelfingen plant shows the little differences for each market with a right hand drive car without side mirror, an Italian car with side marker lights, a French car with yellow headlights and an American car with the different headlight arrangement."
-
I am sure the picture is represented in multiple publications but it can be found in the "Mercedes-Benz , SL W113 Series, 1963 - 1971, by Brian Long". Page 115. The underlying caption advises that the picture was used in the 250 SL catalogue.
Norm
Added: I also found the picture in "Mercedes W113 The Complete Story by Myles Kornblatt". Page 82. The caption mentions: "The end of the line at the Sindelfingen plant shows the little differences for each market with a right hand drive car without side mirror, an Italian car with side marker lights, a French car with yellow headlights and an American car with the different headlight arrangement."
Thanks Norm I've ordered the 2nd one,
Rgds, Joe
-
Hello all,
Finally I got my old German girl into paint. - Signal Red 568
3 coats of Glasuirt 55 Basecoat and 2 coats off Glasurit 923-255 HS Multi Clearcoat.
The painting session didn't go without its near disasters but somehow I managed to work my way through them not the least being my compressor stopping when I was on the last panel on the final clearcoat!!!!
I have some runs to remove and some wet sanding but hardly any orange peel.
Rgds,
Joe
-
Looks good!
Where are the runs? Sure you want to remove? There were factory runs here and there, you would want them to be there.
-
Hi Pawel,
The runs are on the body in the clear - I will remove them - I did strategically place some runs on the underside of the hood ;) well thats my story anyway :-\
Looks good!
Where are the runs? Sure you want to remove? There were factory runs here and there, you would want them to be there.
-
Really good job. Its amazing what can be done with wet sanding and removing runs.
-
Yes I agree Pinder, as long as one follows the correct steps including the correct grit and cutting/polishing compound, it is truly an art but you do have to have an eye for detail and some skilled hands and eyes. Practice on something else first would be my main advice :)
Really good job. Its amazing what can be done with wet sanding and removing runs.
-
Two layers of clear coat can be a bit thin for cutting and buffing. Just stay away from the corners with your sandpaper.
-
Looking good Joe and nice to see it advancing along.
-
Easy to say John, but harder to do!!!! :) but I don't intend to go near the edges and everything I do is always on the conservative side - I'm careful
Two layers of clear coat can be a bit thin for cutting and buffing. Just stay away from the corners with your sandpaper.
-
Thanks Garry - need to grab those hubcap stencils from you sometime :D
Who knows one day might even be able to go for a drive with you!!!
Looking good Joe and nice to see it advancing along.
-
Joe,
Down in Melbourne on 2-3 Apri cleaning up house for rent if you want I can bring down and you can pick up from Middle Park.
-
that works, I'll ping you next week to organise
thankyou
Joe,
Down in Melbourne on 2-3 Apri cleaning up house for rent if you want I can bring down and you can pick up from Middle Park.
-
That’s good progress! Did you paint it right there?
-
Thanks Dave good to hear from you. Yes painted right there in my makeshift booth in the garage.
That’s good progress! Did you paint it right there?
-
And after 10 long years the old girl is off the rotisserie. I did this all on my own using caravan stands and acrow props. Does anyone think 12 jacks is overkill? Who said I was paranoid!!!! ;D
-
600 hours to go!
-
You're too kind Colin, you're assuming I know what I'm doing.... how about we double that figure 😇🤣
600 hours to go!
-
Or in my case 800 hours of actual work and 200 looking for my missing ten millimeter wrench or whatever to go!
-
;D so very true John, thats when the expletives become uncontrollable!!!!
Or in my case 800 hours of actual work and 200 looking for my missing ten millimeter wrench or whatever to go!
-
or the socket that rolled who knows where!
-
... or where one left the flexi-magnet now needed to retrieve the fastener one dropped that bounced and went down the spark plug hole!
-
Hi all,
Some more progress over the last few days.
I just finished installing the rear end, it is one heavy cantankerous beast!!! But all in now, just have to check it's alignment.
Took me a full 2 days and all the tips and threads I've been studying for years were of great benefit so a big thankyou to this wonderful community.
Cheers, Joe
-
Congratulations Joe, what amazing news! I also have a copy of that photo and recently wondered if my car is the second in line, the white Italian delivered car (side round indicator markers). It is a 1/64 manufactured car VIN: 11304210002101
Would be fun to find out if it is or not. Imagine that!
Dave
-
Thanks Dave, imagine that if somehow the white one was yours. None of the others have a vin written on the windscreen though so would be almost impossible to find out!
PS. I have the hubcap stencils, pm me to discuss
-
Agreed, unlikely to ever be able to rule in or rule out so I will sleep at night knowing that it is mine in the photo 😂
Have messaged you about the hub cap stencils. ✅
-
And now after 10 years of taking delivery of this mess of an unfinished resto I now have the ole girl on her feet!!!
It's probably been at least 20 years though in reality. The rego sticker is dated 1985!!!
-
Doesn't exactly look like the home straight yet ;)
But you got the skills and tenacity!
-
Doesn't exactly look like the home straight yet ;)
But you got the skills and tenacity!
Spot on Dave, soooo much more to do yet it is a significant event to get it on wheels
-
Joe,
That is very cool having the original production line photo of your red car on the back wall of your garage. Gives you plenty of incentive to keep going.
I see the floor is half red to match lol.
One small step for Joe, one big step toward completion.
-
Joe,
That is very cool having the original production line photo of your red car on the back wall of your garage. Gives you plenty of incentive to keep going.
I see the floor is half red to match lol.
One small step for Joe, one big step toward completion.
....don' forget to mention the red paint on the walls too Garry.....I do like your eye for detail :)
-
Congrats Joe.
I knew it was yours - as I stated back in 2015 ;D:
Reply #46 on: August 04, 2015, 12:12:45 »
ReplyQuoteModifyRemove
My money's on you Joe,
You have so many bases covered. RHD in that colour combo without a hardtop? I'm thinking most RHD's would have been delivered with hardtops - except for a few to Australia or Sth Africa perhaps.
-
Hi Rob,
I clearly remember your confident statement !!!! :)
Hope you're well,
Rgds, joe
-
All good thanks Joe - since that post I started and finished the restoration of my 1970 280SL which won a raft of awards at this years MBCV Concours including 'Best in Show'.
It was a 5-year total restoration which was finished just in time for the 2020 Concours ..... which was then cancelled for 2 years due to Covid and eventually held in 2022.
When I get around to it I will prepare a Post about it. Here's a pic in the meantime :)
-
Outstanding car Rob!
Congratulations on all the well deserved awards.
If you do not mind sharing, who did the fantastic restoration?
-
Thanks Dave,
This is easily the question I am asked most - the answer is many people - all managed by myself.
Ultimately I had:
- Someone who did the body work and some of the paint
- Another who did some body corrections and final paint, main external assembly
- Engine Builder
- Main Mechanic
- a couple of Interior guys
- 3 Platers (Zinc plating)
- 2.5 Chrome Platers
- Auto Electrician
- I sourced all the parts from the usual part supplies in USA and Germany
Almost all vendors were sourced by me - most were recommended by someone
Most good - some not-so-good....and a couple of hero's.
I used the information from this forum which was invaluable and I was anal enough to have work re-done (up to 3 times) at my expense when it wasn't quite right.
I'm not sure if there exists (in Australia) a restorer who you can simply drop off the car and keys and collect it some years later to this standard.
I'll throw some photo's on a post soon.
-
Rob, well done, that is truly a labour of love and the results are worth every minute you spent on tracking down parts and completing your car to this magnificent level.
I am not aware of any Pagoda expert restoration centres here in Australia either, perhaps someone else can chime in and correct me.
Sleeping Beauty seem to be one store with a reputation for exotic car restoration if and when my car requires it. Hope to see yours one day in real life as I am just across the border in Adelaide.
-
Reinhard Klavers and Associates in Croydon Vic, does Merc restorations and i believe did. W111 cab that won the M B concourse a couple of years ago and was featured at Motorclassica as well. They rebuilt my engine and did up the engine bay some years ago that won the Best Engine Bay in Show at the MB concourse around 2015.
-
Current status,
I do manage to do something on it everyday, even if it is like yesterday where I needed to dremel off a few stuck nuts...
-
The key in the ignition is a sure sign you are seeing light at the end of the tunnel! ;^)
-
Mike the key was to test the steering lock, how I wish the motor was in!!!! Interesting though I did wonder if someone would comment on the key!!!! 😁
-
A Refinisher company in Melbourne are currently doing mine. They have done a lot over the years and have a few there now. They recently did a Gullwing too apparently. Good luck!
-
You may already know this but, I believe the horizontal chrome piece, on the lower rear quarter panel, behind the rear wheel in this picture, is indicative of a later model 230. The early models did not have this….the tires look very much like 5.5 to me!
Bill
-
A Refinisher company in Melbourne are currently doing mine. They have done a lot over the years and have a few there now. They recently did a Gullwing too apparently. Good luck!
Hi Andy post some pics when you get it done! For me I couldn't afford to give up the kidney they'd want just as down payment (but actually I love giving stuff a go myself). I'm hearing bare metals resprays are commanding $35k to $50k in Australia. Not sure if thats accurate but I was quoted $20k back in 2015. All my paint (Glasurit) cost me about $3k in total including primer and undercoat and thats using the base coat and clear coat system on the exterior and using single stage on the underside, interior and engine bay.
Rgds, Joe
-
You may already know this but, I believe the horizontal chrome piece, on the lower rear quarter panel, behind the rear wheel in this picture, is indicative of a later model 230. The early models did not have this….the tires look very much like 5.5 to me!
Bill
Hi Bill,
On a high resolution image one can clearly make out that this car, and thus all the others behind, are fitted with the early 5,5" rims. This is identified by the three lugs (pins) on the wheel rim. The move to the 6" wide rims was at the end of July 1964, so, this image is taken before that date (comments courtesy of /Hans in Sweden).
The rear horizontal plate I had not heard that before Bill, pretty sure it was on early pagodas as far back as the 63 but perhaps someone else can chime in on that one.
R/Joe
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2133.0
-
Will do. Hopefully Q1 next year. Wish I could tinker. Would only make things worse! Cheers.
-
You may already know this but, I believe the horizontal chrome piece, on the lower rear quarter panel, behind the rear wheel in this picture, is indicative of a later model 230. The early models did not have this….
Rubbish. >:(
No Bill, this is not correct. The chrome piece behind the rear wheel arch is always there on any 113
(uhem..., with the exception of a couple of pre-March-1963 prototype cars without 113042 VIN).
All Pagodas had these trim pieces (A113 689 0980 and 1080) ex factory....; if they're missing they were later taken off. Most likely due to (bad) rust (repair) or a non-knowledgeable restoration team.
Achim
-
Hello all!!!!
Steady progress continues on my restoration with many things happening in parallel all stuck in a log jam which is me with only one set of arms and legs and one brain (or half a brain!!! ::)
After receiving my entire interior from German Auto Tops and having to deal with American couriers (no offence to the Americans among us) which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy I've got my first seat rebuilt. Thoughts you might be interested to see some pics...
My original mbtex was grey/white and the closest replacement was Parchment which looks a perfect match.
I had all the usual issues such as broken springs and even the frame needed a touch of welding but a light sand and paint touch up its looking good....I also need to get it out into the sun to soften up for some more adustments... I'm quite pleased with the result.
My original coconut fibre pads were not bad enough to justify replacing so I added some 25mm foam.
Hope you're all keeping well,
Joe in Melbourne
-
Nice job Joe. Did you end up using SS tie’s or nylon’s
Garry
-
Thanks Garry,
Black nylon ones which can be seen in one of the pics. I figure that the load is spread right across many of them so they'll last a while!!!
Nice job Joe. Did you end up using SS tie’s or nylon’s
Garry
-
The red car appears again in another publication (thanks to Dave Celghorn who posted the link in another thread)
https://www.motor1.com/news/656739/mercedes-230-sl-pagoda-1963-debut/amp/
and a pic of the current state - currently working on the interior, the body has been 3000grit wetndry sanded ready for the buff. Progress can be painfully slow at times for a myriad of reasons, for eg, the 3-piece windscreen frame chrome surrounds were in good condition except one had a dent in it that I could not get out - right on the corner of the rhs vertial surround so if I re-chrome that one then I have to do all 3. So the windscreen can't go in until the surrounds return from the chrome plater... :o
Rgds, Joe
-
Hi Joe,
We seem to be in a similar place both when comes to where we are with our restoration and geographically.
Love reading up on the celebrity status of your car, mine too was delivered without the hardtop.
The last we spoke, you said you were interested in dropping past to see my glovebox lid. If you’re still interested, I’d be more than happy to have a couple of beers with you while we talk Pagodas.
Here’s a happy snap of my progress, almost as slow as yours. It took me the best part of 4 hours yesterday to pull apart the throttle linkages for plating. Still enjoying it for now😂.
Regards Doug
-
Hi Doug that's looking good 👍
I did send you a personal message on here but you didn't reply, would be great to catchup and compare notes and cars!!!!
I'll send you another message, check your mailbox on here :)
Best rgds, Joe
-
Hi Joe,
That’s interesting, I’ve just checked my mailbox and there’s nothing from you.
I’ll keep an eye out now.
Doug.
-
I sent you a message 15 minutes ago
-
Have now gone inside onto the pc and tried for the 3rd time - if you don't get one maybe try sending me one Doug.
Rgds, Joe
ps. Might have worked as my message is now appearing in my sent folder, wasn't when i was on the phone
I sent you a message 15 minutes ago
-
That’s interesting, I’ve just checked my mailbox and there’s nothing from you.
Doug.
Personal Messages do not -- always -- appear in your mailbox but on this site on My Messages.
Do note: if you do receive a Personal Message notification from this system -- do not reply to the e-mail, as that does not work.
Use the link in the mail to go to the messages page on this forum and reply there. The reason for this is because it is the only way to keep e-mail addresses private for members who have set that in their personal profile.
-
Hi Peter,
I was checking my messages on the site.
The 3rd one Joe sent was the first I received from him.
All good now
Doug
-
Happy new year all!!!
My restoration continues albeit slowly though I'm always progressing in some way...
The latest item that was missing that I decided to try and re-fabricate was the rear seat vents. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw the price of them, surely they must be made from gold I thought.
I purchased 50mm x 6mm aluminium flat bar and 2 different sheets of stainless steel gauze, a fine one to hid behind the more course one. To hold the metal gauze in and also to hold the vents in the back of the seat I fabricated a sheetmetal back and attached with small pins set in expoxy into the rear of the aluminium vents.
Using a router and manual filing I managed to fabricate and install the 4 vents. I polished the aluminium and coated with a clear protective coating. I'm quite pleased with the results.
Regards from Joe in Australia
-
and a few more pics....
-
Great work! Happy New Year!
...WRe
-
Nice work ! Well done
-
Amazing work.
No wonder your "handle" is Getsmart.
-
Beautiful work!
-
thanks guys, I know its not for everyone but the fabrication part for me almost gives me more enjoyment than driving the car - though I have not yet driven it so I should refrain from commenting further until then :)