Author Topic: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century  (Read 29128 times)

mdsalemi

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OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« on: August 17, 2008, 09:00:29 »
A little OT for a Sunday...

In the past week, we've taken delivery of two new cars, our daily drivers.  My wife works for Ford, so Fords we drive; she gets (and pays for and evaluates) 2 new vehicles every model year.  Further, because of her particular job situation at present (at a UAW/Ford joint programs facility) she can only drive Ford/Lincoln/Mercury branded vehicles that are assembled in the USA or Canada.  Rules out UAW made vehicles such as the Mazda6 made alongside the Mustang, and a Fusion made in Mexico.

The 2009 vehicles we just received are a Ford Flex and a Lincoln MKS.  The Flex is Made in Canada (Oakville, Ontario) and the Lincoln in Chicago, Illinois.

In our 20 years of driving new vehicles every year, never have I seen such a quantum leap of technology and features bundled and integrated together, and even brought downmarket to vehicles such as the Flex--whose target market is Gen-X Soccer Moms and families.  As we all know the automotive market, no matter whose vehicles you prefer, is extremely competitive and you'll see more of this kind of integrated technology reaching downmarket into lower priced vehicles across the board.

Aside from the Microsoft Sync system--which is available in just about every Ford product, none of these features are particularly new or innovative, so that's not my point.  It's how they have been all brought together.  In the past, I've seen all these innovations, one by one, option by option, available on select models, in a variety of makes and models.  My 2008 TaurusX, only 8 months old, seems like a dinosaur in technological comparison.  Interesting, the TaurusX and Flex are supposed to appeal to the same target market.

A few years ago I drove a new S550 with Bruno Sacco, and it was so techno-heavy that I had to be shown how to start it and how to shift it as these normal controls were different.  The kinds of technology normally found or offered on $100,000+ vehicles is now making its way to $35,000 vehicles, in a big way all at once.

What are these kinds of features?
  • Sync system, integrating hands-free voice control of phone, nav system, iPod, MP3, cd player, radio, satellite radio with real time traffic info, gas prices, etc.
  • HID lighting, steerable
  • LED lighting (not complete, but getting there)
  • Heated and cooled seats.  The cooling is faster than the heating.  
  • fully automated power seating with memory
  • push-button start/stop; there is no key!
  • no fuel filler cap
  • ambient accent lighting in 7 color choices
  • integrated refrigerator in back seat; hold 8 cans/bottles
  • plenty of 12V power points AND a 110VAC, 150W plug too!
  • vista roof
  • cup holder and storage bins all over
  • rain-sensing wipers
  • adaptive cruise control
  • traction control
  • rear backup sensors
  • front parking sensors
  • rear backup camera
  • low tire pressure indicators on dash
  • 6 speed automatic transmission standard
  • integrated garage door control
  • fully automated driver and passenger climate controls
  • fully automated rear passenger climate controls
  • lots of other little "S&D" (surprise and delight) items having to do with interior comfort and convenience.
You may hate and despise American automotive manufacturing and that is your choice; I'm not selling anything.  Be prepared however, for a tidal wave of technology from all manufacturers in increasingly-performing bundles, making its way down market to lower priced vehicles.

I'm just so very astounded by how quickly all this stuff has been brought here at vehicles in this price point.  Every year, there has always been something new; this year, instead of incremental changes there are big ones, and lots of them.  No, these vehicles are not priced like a Honda Civic, nor are they priced like an S550 either.

On the downside, the Flex is way overweight, still gets just 24 highway MPG.  Hopefully they'll be working on some of those things that you can't see--except at the gas pump!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 15:44:53 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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JamesL

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 11:14:36 »
I commented to the wife yesterday...

we have 3 cars, and one cupholder between them. Somehow, I survive.
James L
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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 12:01:41 »
Cup holders and fossils.  :D

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Mark280SL

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 19:28:24 »
An interesting post Michael, I enjoyed reading it.

On one hand I think I really like the fact american car companies are bringing these technological improvements and options to the market.

On the other hand I wonder how many of these cars will be around as long as our 113s and how fixable some of these things will be when these cars age.

I also really have to wonder why in these times of such intense worldwide concern about greenhouse gases, fuel prices, and energy conservation they are putting out cars that only get 24mpg. It makes me think the management of these companies are out of touch, or maybe in cahoots with the oil compaines or who knows what. I simply can't believe they can't put out a fleet with 30-50% higher mileage ratings if they put their minds and resources to it.
Mark

Paddy_Crow

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 21:06:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL

An interesting post Michael, I enjoyed reading it.

On one hand I think I really like the fact american car companies are bringing these technological improvements and options to the market.

On the other hand I wonder how many of these cars will be around as long as our 113s and how fixable some of these things will be when these cars age.

I also really have to wonder why in these times of such intense worldwide concern about greenhouse gases, fuel prices, and energy conservation they are putting out cars that only get 24mpg. It makes me think the management of these companies are out of touch, or maybe in cahoots with the oil compaines or who knows what. I simply can't believe they can't put out a fleet with 30-50% higher mileage ratings if they put their minds and resources to it.



New car models are not developed in a few months. It takes roughly three years to bring them to market. And, frankly, until the last six months consumers in the US have not been buying the more fuel efficient models. The fleet is a reflection of what sells (or what sold in the recent past).

If the US auto execs were in cahoots with the oil companies, do you think they'd be losing $10B per quarter?

hauser

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 21:32:17 »
Neat pic Alfred.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 21:33:53 by hauser »

hauser

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 21:35:47 »
Tosh, I like your theory of one man one cup holder.  I'm still trying to figure out why our seven passenger minivan has eleven of them.[:0]
quote:
Originally posted by Tosh

I commented to the wife yesterday...

we have 3 cars, and one cup holder between them. Somehow, I survive.


« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 21:36:30 by hauser »

JamesL

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 03:50:15 »
Easy

3 people have wine or beer
4 people have a mixed drink such as gin and tonic, rum and cola, bourbon and water and, er, tea with milk :D

Less off topic, weight is the killer of fuel efficiency and all the gizmos do add weight. Perhaps that's why we are seeing so much more alloy in the structure of the cars now. This bit is lighter to compensate for the batteries in the DVD players etc.

quote:
Originally posted by hauser

Tosh, I like your theory of one man one cup holder.  I'm still trying to figure out why our seven passenger minivan has eleven of them.[:0]
quote:
Originally posted by Tosh

I commented to the wife yesterday...

we have 3 cars, and one cup holder between them. Somehow, I survive.






« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 03:53:18 by Tosh »
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mdsalemi

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 08:00:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL

An interesting post Michael, I enjoyed reading it.

On one hand I think I really like the fact american car companies are bringing these technological improvements and options to the market.

On the other hand I wonder how many of these cars will be around as long as our 113s and how fixable some of these things will be when these cars age.

I also really have to wonder why in these times of such intense worldwide concern about greenhouse gases, fuel prices, and energy conservation they are putting out cars that only get 24mpg. It makes me think the management of these companies are out of touch, or maybe in cahoots with the oil compaines or who knows what. I simply can't believe they can't put out a fleet with 30-50% higher mileage ratings if they put their minds and resources to it.



Thanks, Mark.

It's unlikely that a Flex or MK-S will garner any of the collectibility of any MB car much less one of ours...but hey, I've seen PARADES of the old Skyliner, and there are thriving Edsel clubs, too.  The other day, for no apparent reason, I got a copy of a 1963 magazine article that mentioned MB from an NSU collector I've never met.  He's part of the USA's NSU Club.  If there's a club, there are cars, right?

PaddyCrow is quite right--some of these things were "set" for production a long time before this current oil situation.  In fact, as late as this past April--only 4 months ago--the Ford F150 pickup truck still outsold every other vehicle in the USA.  Boy did that change in a hurry!

As one who has studied in great detail over a period of years, (absorbing every book I can find on the subjects) the achievements it took to get a man on the moon, and to build the first atomic bomb, I'm wondering why the same level of engineering effort on a nationwide basis hasn't seriously been considered.  I offer no, and pass no judgment whatsoever on the need for either of those achievements, dubious or destructive as they may seem to many--but only that the scientific and engineering challenges that were met and solved were pretty amazing.

Let's really hope that someday soon our cars will get significantly better gas mileage!  With TWO cupholders per person!! :)
Michael Salemi
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Naj ✝︎

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 08:06:35 »
quote:
 With TWO cupholders per person!! :)



And steering by eye movement  :oops: .

What's a Chevy Volt (or is this a Ford discussion)?

naj
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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 09:42:17 »
naj

That's called a "train".

quote:
Originally posted by naj

[quote  With TWO cupholders per person!! :)



And steering by eye movement  :oops: .



naj
[/quote] :D
James L
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seattle_Jerry

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 11:46:51 »
I disagree on the "they build what the public wants" idea. Consumers on the whole are sheep waiting to be told what we want. The only reason it isn't working now is because we want to eat more than we want to drive what the marketing machines have decided we should drive.

They could have built a fuel efficient or electic or nuclear or twisted rubberband car at any time and convinced the majority of us that it was the neatest thing since sliced bread.

Ultimately it was cheaper to stay with the same basic engine technologies and pass off repackaged consumer electronics and more cup holders as innovation.

The automotive engineering/design program  I graduated from 20 years ago was already spending 90% of the time working on alternative fuel vehicles.

Alternative fuel and economical gas engines will be put off to the last instant. There is just too much money in the ground.

seattle_Jerry

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 11:55:00 »
I'll add that if I had a car company I would want at least a portion of my employees driving the competition to provide perspective.

I'll also say that all the advances in braking and handling are a clear indicator that improvements are also possible in the combustion department if they put their minds to it.

mdsalemi

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 14:13:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by naj

[quote  With TWO cupholders per person!! :)



And steering by eye movement  :oops: .

What's a Chevy Volt (or is this a Ford discussion)?

naj
[/quote]

Chevy Volt is a new electric vehicle to be built by Chevrolet. http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/?seo=goo_|_2008_Chevy_Fuel_Solutions_Lifestyle_|_IMG_Electric_|_Chevy_Volt_FS_General_|_chevy_volt

It was introduced as a concept car, and received so much positive press it is fast-tracking into production.  Now if they can only figure out that darn battery thing, they'll have it made.
Michael Salemi
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mdsalemi

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 14:16:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by seattle_Jerry

I'll add that if I had a car company I would want at least a portion of my employees driving the competition to provide perspective.

I'll also say that all the advances in braking and handling are a clear indicator that improvements are also possible in the combustion department if they put their minds to it.



Jerry, some of the engineers I know (doesn't seem to go down to others in the company) at Ford and at Chrysler do drive the competition from time to time as part of the job.  They are also torn apart.

It would be nice too, to make the Senior Managers (those with some clout) have to deal with the dealers and see what the public puts up with.  Improvements can be made all over.

My neighbor is the Interiors Product manager at Chrysler and he knew every detail of the Flex interior and all the suppliers, too.  So, he knew all about the competition--on a product just entering the pipeline now.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 14:22:05 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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hill

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 14:48:00 »
quote:
Originally posted by Tosh

I commented to the wife yesterday...

we have 3 cars, and one cupholder between them. Somehow, I survive.




Three cars here and not even the Cressida has a cupholder. But I think my dads XB has a bunch.

Cees Klumper

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 15:21:59 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

A little OT for a Sunday...
What are these kinds of features?
  • Sync system, integrating hands-free voice control of phone, nav system, iPod, MP3, cd player, radio, satellite radio with real time traffic info, gas prices, etc.
  • HID lighting, steerable
  • LED lighting (not complete, but getting there)
  • Heated and cooled seats.  The cooling is faster than the heating.  
  • fully automated power seating with memory
  • push-button start/stop; there is no key!
  • no fuel filler cap
  • ambient accent lighting in 7 color choices
  • integrated refrigerator in back seat; hold 8 cans/bottles
  • plenty of 12V power points
  • vista roof
  • cup holder and storage bins all over
  • rain-sensing wipers
  • adaptive cruise control
  • traction control
  • rear backup sensors
  • front parking sensors
  • rear backup camera
  • low tire pressure indicators on dash
  • 6 speed automatic transmission standard
  • integrated garage door control
  • fully automated driver and passenger climate controls
  • fully automated rear passenger climate controls
  • lots of other little "S&D" (surprise and delight) items having to do with interior comfort and convenience.



This is a fun off-topic topic!

Below are the things I would actually use:

power seating with memory
plenty of 12V power points (for my kids)
rear backup sensors

The 'no fuel filler' feature would only come in useful, and be appreciated by me, if the car could go without fuel. Otherwise it seems like somewhat of a disadvantage to me!

Seriously as well, this reminds me of the realization I had about 15 years ago with respect to PC software like spreadsheets: every generation was able to do quantum leaps more than the previous, but after the second generation it was counterproductive: the software did more than I needed, and the features that I DID need became lost in the woods, while the amount of memory space the package took up exploded. So 'less is more' in my experience and I think BMW are pondering that concept every time the 'i-drive' gets another beating in the press ...
Cees Klumper
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mdsalemi

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 15:55:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
This is a fun off-topic topic!

Below are the things I would actually use:

power seating with memory
plenty of 12V power points (for my kids)
rear backup sensors

The 'no fuel filler' feature would only come in useful, and be appreciated by me, if the car could go without fuel. Otherwise it seems like somewhat of a disadvantage to me!


Well, when modern cars don't operate properly IF the fuel filler cap isn't tightened properly or a certain way, (emissions?) the no cap deal is pretty good.

It's old, but new to me: I had a slow leak in a tire last year, and the pressure indicators gave me a warning when it went down to 24PSI from 31.  Did the same thing in 2 more weeks--I knew I had a problem then.

Many Americans, like their kids, like their beverages cold. If your kids are in that category, and they had the refrigerator in the back seat, trust me they'd use it!  Particularly on those holiday drives to France!

I can't tell you how many American garages have either a plastic indicator, like a ball hanging from a thread, or a block of wood to "place" the car properly in the garage...the front sensors fixed that in a hurry.

It scares people when they see you backing up, and not looking; not realizing that you have a full-color camera showing the rear view right on the dash!  Complete with "indicator lines" showing the car width...

Yes it's fun.

Yes I know the cupholder thing gets many up in a tizzy; most Europeans just don't understand it.  Maybe we need more fluids?  I don't know--on my extended journeys (Chicago, PUB, Cleveland) in the W113, I had the water bottle between my legs.  Funny, I've seen some very nice modifications to the center console that include cup holder or bottle holders...
Michael Salemi
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Mike Hughes

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 16:01:19 »
The "no fuel filler" feature Mike talks about is more accurately a "capless fuel filler."  There is no fuel cap, but rather an internal valve that only opens if a fuel pump nozzle is inserted into the orifice.  Presumably this device will cut down on evaporative emissions.  The good news is that the internal valve won't allow the use of a fuel siphon hose.  Even a portable fuel container spout isn't the precise size required to open the internal valve.  Each car comes equipped with an emergency funnel/spout to insert into the orifice so that one can use a portable fuel container for emergency refills.

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Paddy_Crow

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 17:19:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by seattle_Jerry

I disagree on the "they build what the public wants" idea. Consumers on the whole are sheep waiting to be told what we want. The only reason it isn't working now is because we want to eat more than we want to drive what the marketing machines have decided we should drive.

They could have built a fuel efficient or electic or nuclear or twisted rubberband car at any time and convinced the majority of us that it was the neatest thing since sliced bread.

Ultimately it was cheaper to stay with the same basic engine technologies and pass off repackaged consumer electronics and more cup holders as innovation.

The automotive engineering/design program  I graduated from 20 years ago was already spending 90% of the time working on alternative fuel vehicles.

Alternative fuel and economical gas engines will be put off to the last instant. There is just too much money in the ground.



I guess that would explain why football is so popular in this country. But seriously, you give the marketing folks way too much credit. They aren't that good.

seattle_Jerry

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 18:09:21 »
Yeah I come off fairly skeptical when it comes to the oil and auto industry. And now that I am in sales, I'm fairly confident it marketings ability to convince people of what they want or didn't even know they wanted.

I just wish the US auto industry would do more than the bare minimum when it comes to fuel efficiency and emmissions. Its kind of embarrassing compared to the Asian cars.

Paddy_Crow

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 19:59:49 »
If sales and marketing is so good, why can't they convince people to pay more for cars that are cheaper to make?

The US auto industry has struggled to break even for the past six or seven years. Exactly where do you propose they get the money for the research you want them to do? In the last couple years, engineering headcount has been cut in half.

Virtually all US manufacturing is in the process of being shipped overseas. It won't be long before there ISN'T a US auto industry.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 20:01:01 by Paddy_Crow »

Mark280SL

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 20:07:35 »
Paddy Crow,

I would certainly agree it takes time to put a new car on the market.... but the concept of developing a fuel efficient car that gets high gas mileage is big picture and something far beyond thinking about the next model year car with better cup holders. They COULD and SHOULD have had something like that in their back pocket for years. It's all about strategy, planning, and good management. I'm in a management role with a very large corporation, we think FAR in advance trying to anticipate where the market is going to go in our business, you have to or you end up like GM. In our space it's extremely difficult to see 2-3 years in advance, in the car business I find it beyond belief that the guys at the top running these companies could not 5, 10, 15 years back have seen the fact that oil prices are prone to huge increases over time considering where we get most of it and the state of world politics in the supplying countries that for the most part despise Americans and have for years, High school kids can see that.

They are and have been capable of doing it and could have had something ready but they were greedy and were making big bucks on SUV's bloated with stupid options and got caught with their pants down. Now they (The CEO of GM in particular) are running around blaming the "high cost of benefits" they have to pay their workers for the fact they are losing money. What a disgrace.  Are we to believe Asian companies are blowing them away in sales, developing innovative and efficient cars and crushing their revenues because they (GM) have to pay higher benefits to their employees???, it's just completely pathetic and insulting to hear nonsense like that. ALL American companies have high benefit costs, and the well run ones still make very solid profits and are strong and vibrant.

I'm a proud American who wants to buy American as much as possible and see our country prosper but don't expect me or anybody else to buy things that don't meet the need.

I agree, they are not losing 10b because they are in cahoots with the oil companies. They are losing 10b because they (executive management) are losers.

On a happier note I'm all for more and better cup holders!


 

quote:
Originally posted by Paddy_Crow

quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL

An interesting post Michael, I enjoyed reading it.

On one hand I think I really like the fact american car companies are bringing these technological improvements and options to the market.

On the other hand I wonder how many of these cars will be around as long as our 113s and how fixable some of these things will be when these cars age.

I also really have to wonder why in these times of such intense worldwide concern about greenhouse gases, fuel prices, and energy conservation they are putting out cars that only get 24mpg. It makes me think the management of these companies are out of touch, or maybe in cahoots with the oil compaines or who knows what. I simply can't believe they can't put out a fleet with 30-50% higher mileage ratings if they put their minds and resources to it.



New car models are not developed in a few months. It takes roughly three years to bring them to market. And, frankly, until the last six months consumers in the US have not been buying the more fuel efficient models. The fleet is a reflection of what sells (or what sold in the recent past).

If the US auto execs were in cahoots with the oil companies, do you think they'd be losing $10B per quarter?

« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 20:30:41 by Mark280SL »
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Paddy_Crow

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 21:17:50 »
Yes, and our government should have seen 9/11 coming. And our bankers should have seen the mortgage meltdown coming. But they didn't.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 21:21:13 by Paddy_Crow »

seattle_Jerry

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Re: OT: Fast Forward to the 21st Century
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2008, 02:02:39 »
Actually, if I recall, to some extent they did see 9/11 coming but upper management didn't do anything with the intel. Had we not been dependent on middle east oil, we wouldn't have been over there creating the conditions that spawned the terrorists in the first place.

Anyone with a lick of sense could have seen the mortgage thing coming. Banks were blinded by greed. I sold all my property slightly before it peaked and am renting waiting for rock bottom.
I knew way too many people that were qualifying for houses that there was no way they could afford.

At this point the auto industry can't afford not to put money into engineering. Producing a car that is inferior to the competition is not the way to drum up sales.

I agree that this is a problem that should have been being worked on at least since the 70's gas crunch. There is no good reason not to already have a solution on the shelf ready to go.

If I remember right the Japanese are on a 3 year schedule for complete redesigns. How many generations of US cars had the same engines with minor tweaks?