Original Fender Notch: Fact / Fiction?

[al_lieffring]

Is there any hard evicence that the Pagoda cars came out of the factory with a tiny grinder mark on the fender between the headlight ring and the grille that lines up with the inside ridge on the headlight ring?

I repainted several of these cars back when they still had the original finish on them (the clear coat on the metalic colors weather checked within a couple years of new)and I can not recall ever seeing them.

It wasn't untill many years later that a mechanic from Germany told me that when repainting the cars that the little notches needed to be put there.

Was I so dense that I didn't see them and sanded them off, or have historical revisionists sold us a line about the importance of this insignificant detail? Was there a guy on the paint line with a grinder that made the official notch in every fender? What was his name?

These questions havn't been keeping me awake at night, but I realy belive that the notch is a myth and not a feature of the original paint finish. I will need factory documentation or production line photos from 1964 to be convinced otherwise.





Al Lieffring
66 230SL

[thelews]

They were there originally and I believe resulted from the lead at the joint of the nose and fender.  Also, why would MB go through the effort of designing a "notch" on the headlight cover on the inside if it did not follow through to the body like it does on the outside?

John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

[sjiatrou]

http://www.motoringinvestments.com/RestoLog.htm

This link was just posted for a different topic but if scroll down about three pictures it shows the notch and provides a description. I realize this is just more anecdotal evidence and not the factory documentation you need but my 64 with original paint has the notch and I agree with John, it must be part of the overall design.  I would argue that the importance is that the headlight door will not fit properly without the body notch, you'd have a notch in the door and nothing behind it.)


Steve

Steve
Seaside, CA
1964 230sl roadster
White (050)/Black (116)

[john.mancini]

Al,
I have an original paint 68 280SL and the headlight notches are there. What amazes me is how they either disappear or become extremely distorted when a car is repainted. By the way, new MB replacement fenders do NOT have notches....but they definitely exist on factory original cars.
John

[Mike Hughes]

quote:Originally posted by thelews

They were there originally and I believe resulted from the lead at the joint of the nose and fender.  Also, why would MB go through the effort of designing a "notch" on the headlight cover on the inside if it did not follow through to the body like it does on the outside?

John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

So that they could use the same headlight door on both sides, instead of having to design and cast unique left and right ones.  The notch was ground or filed in by hand as part of the body-in-white finishing process.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[thelews]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Hughes
So that they could use the same headlight door on both sides, instead of having to design and cast unique left and right ones. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now THAT makes sense!


John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

[mdsalemi]

Al,

The man who put them there is Paul Bracq; he's very much alive and well (I speak with him reqularly) and can assure you that they are an original item.  It's a detail item that only a sculptor like Bracq would do.  The article about him a while ago in Mercedes Enthusiast called Pagoda Man had a photo of him pointing to these notches as they we call them.



My restorer told me that they were always added in lead; in fact he said there was an larqe quantity of lead in the original car from the factory of which these flourishes were just one little item.  "Handmade" cars had leaded features.  So, these little flourishes are fact not fiction.  Sleep well.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[al_lieffring]

I have to admitt that I made this as a tongue-in-cheek post, but it is still amazing that this detail was completly ignored for 30 years.

Lead work in the seams was not uncommon in car production untill worker health regulations made it impractical. Cars more cheeply made than the Benz often left the seams unfinished, the most flagrant example I can think of was the old Austin Mini with raw seams running around the entire perimiter of the car.

There were leaded seams in the Pagoda at the 4 corners of the hood and 4 corners of the rear deck, along the vertical seams of the rear fender door sills, and at the transitional sculpting from the door to the top of the rear fender (a much more impressive piece of lead work than the headlamp notch)

My car of course is way too rough to even consider doing lead work, I have attempted it before without much success. I'll be wiping a little nootch out of the bondo with my finger tip where the nose pannel seams are, once I get to that point.

Al Lieffring
66 230SL

[Bob G]

I was told those notches in the fender between the nose panel were put there as a reference point for replacment of the nose piece in a front end collision. Not so much as a design mark, but throughout the years so many people have been trained to look for this.

My concern is I have seen different lengths of this mark. What is correct? I know when the noise panel is replaced, it is leaded and braised into the front fenders and bumper support panel because the hood has to be squared with the nose and front fenders so the gaps are aligned correctly.

It seems like this detail was leaded in and lost in the shuffle on many pagodas including mine that is was totally forgotten by the body men doing the work.
Bob Geco

[mdsalemi]

The fact that they were put in is proven.  Why they were put in is subject to conjecture and opinion.  There are different length versions, which are original or not, I don't know.  I've seen some really long ones.

I do know that it is impossible to prove exactly what is original or not on all cars; specifically if you are the nth owner and 40 or more years have passed since it was made.  How do you know with absolute certainty (unless you are the original owner) that no work was done on the car?  Can you prove no work was done on a fender bender that happened in 1965, 5 owners ago?  Most of us would hardly believe what the cutting torch revealed when my car was worked on during the restoration...

Today, those notches are simply a metric that indicates that whoever has done work on the car has at least a greater than average understanding of the car, and at least a more than passing interest in a bit of accuracy.  They are so small as to be nearly invisible unless you go search them out.

Recently I saw a 230SL owned by someone owning a local collision shop.  Not a member here, not a member of the MBCA either.  The car looked quite nice from a distance--new paint and all, generally a good looker.  But details?  UGH!  No notches, wrong wheels, man--if it were posted here you all would pick it apart like vultures on a deer carcass!  Clearly the owner, and his own body men, treated it like any other car.  Sure was shiny and pretty, but a tremendous lack of correct details.  A sin of omission, not commission.

We like to think of our cars as special and one of the ways we do this is generally pay attention to little details like these notches.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[glennard]

Achtung!!  Just found a supply of 'notches' on a back shelve in the garage.  Can e-mail one to anybody interested.  Col. Klunk.

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by glennard

Achtung!!  Just found a supply of 'notches' on a back shelve in the garage.  Can e-mail one to anybody interested.  Col. Klunk.

Jawohl, Herr Glennard, but are they the long or short versions?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Garry]

Her Oberst

Could I order four short notches. As well as correcting the front lights, I would like to increase the size of my tail lights.

Obergefreiter Klinger

[lurtch]

Hey Al  - - thanks for posting this topic!  I will weigh in with this:

 My car is currently in the last stages of a new paint job. Before I dropped it off at the body shop I attempted to reconstruct the fender notches myself, to assure the correctness to this little feature. After grinding down through a thick multi-coat bondo sandwich I arrived at the base metal. Here is the point - - I was unable to determine if such a fender notch ever existed. There seemed to be no evidence of a distinct wrinkle on either fender.

Puzzled though I was, I sculpted in a close approximation of the notch that exactly aligned with the headlight pod trim ring.

I like Bob G's idea about the possible intended purpose of these notches. I venture that they might have been a designed-in feature to facilitate the attachment of some kind of assembly jig (or clamping fixture) to correctly position the grill surround for the assembly line welding operation.

I was chagrined to find out that the body men completely ground away all my work so they could reconstruct the notches using their skills and materials instead of mine. OH WELL - -They have since proven that they are a group of masterful perfectionists. I am confident of first class results. Details to follow.

Regards, Larry in CA

Download Attachment: notch--.jpg
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[Richard Madison]

Let me mention the obvious:

If fender notches can be reproduced, then we should no longer rely on notches to verify that the fenders are original.

And an "original" factory made notch has less "value" to a buyer since it looks just like a newly added notch.  Yes, No?

Richard M, NYC whose car has an original notch.

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by 280SL71

Let me mention the obvious:

If fender notches can be reproduced, then we should no longer rely on notches to verify that the fenders are original.

And an "original" factory made notch has less "value" to a buyer since it looks just like a newly added notch.  Yes, No?

Richard M, NYC whose car has an original notch.

Richard--I'm not sure that anybody has relied on the existence of the notches to prove originality, but merely to acknowledge that proper reverance was given to the original design during body work or repaint.

I'm not sure about the second assessment here other than to say there is definitely some value placed on true originality by some buyers.  There is also some value placed by buyers on well-done restoration.  It't the murky area between originality and good restoration where all the uncertainties lie!

Lurtch--be thankful that the pros chose to "show you how its done".  If they've been masterful, no doubt you'll be pleased with the result!  Note that nobody ever indicated that there was a metal wrinkle in the original fender, just that the flourish was added in lead.  Take more shots and show us the result; you should see if you can get a shot AFTER their work but before they add primer or paint.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America