Cash Washing is it really a bad thing?

[perry113]

I was just reading another post about water leaking into the front floors of another forum member car which was caused from clogged ac drains. Another story how water and moisture are truely an ememy to these vehicles.

I don't consider myself a fanatic about how I keep my cars, but others may think otherwise. Between my father and I we have many vehicles. A Morgan, MGA, 1972 911 Coupe, 1975 Maserati Bora and of course the 230SL. I use all of these cars frequently when I can during the nice weather. I probably spread 6000 miles just myself a year on all of them from May to October each year. I run them the way they were designed. There not garage queens or show winners. They are there for my father and I to drive and enjoy.

When it comes to cleaning the cars I have a totally different approach that makes me seem fanatical to some. I will at all costs try to avoid rain and find myself never putting a hose with water on the cars. That's right I will not use a hose on these cars to clean them. I use touch up and clean each car using cleaning sprays or water in a spray bottle. I try at all costs not to expose the cars to excess amounts of water.


Both the 230SL and 911 are built like tanks but they have such a reputation for rust. Once water gets into the unibody inside where you can't see it can't get out. Think of all the holes around the body where screws and fasteners go on to mount trim work and water can penetrate. Eventually the water will lead to corrosion.

Am I a little extreme or am I just taking precautionary measures as preservationist to preserve my vehicles for the future.

I ask other forum members on your thoughts?

Peter Perry

[Paddy_Crow]

Your precautionary measures are wise. I intend to follow the same formula to extend the life of my 230 SL.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch...

[Chad]

I think your practices and thoughts on this issue make a lot of sense.  Anything mechanical on these cars can be rebuilt, and parts refurbished; what seems to end older cars is accidents and rust, of course.  You have effectively eliminated one of these threats. Good stewardship of the car.

I think such practices are especially important to anyone living in more humid, non-arid climates.  Everyone outside of NM, AZ, NV etc.

1967 230SL

[J. Huber]

Well, that is pretty much the policy I adopted about 10 years ago. My car has the "evil" stuff already -- I figured if I keep it dry, it won't spread as fast. I keep it shiny by dusting and detailing it very often.

Having said that, I have washed the car by hand a handful of times in that 10 years and quickly (and lightly) hosed it off. My rubber seals have been replaced so I believe "most" water stays out. Yet, I had that problem last week when I was forced to drive in a downpour. While the obvious problem was the drainage hose -- I bet water made it in other areas. Darn. So I'd say, if you can pull it off, always keep her high and dry!

James
63 230SL

[hauser]

I haven't had any issues with hand washing.  The only area I avoid is the fresh air inlet and try to keep water from going in.  Other than that I simply wash it.  The procedure I have used is to do one section at a time first by hosing down the panel and gently use my hand to remove anything on the surface.  My choice of car care products is Zymol car wash and Zymol wax.  In order to get my finish to what it is today I used a claybar.  Fantastic results if done properly followed by a good quality wax and buff.

One problem area and I understand that I'm not the only one is the plastic window of the softt top.  It acts as a magnet and trying to keep it clen and clear is quite a chor.  I would be intrested to hear from others how they deal with their plastic window.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[Peter van Es]

As a rule, I wash my cash often... I like nice-smalling cash.

Joking aside, in the Netherlands I do get caught in the occasional downpour. Nothing as fickle as the weather here.

For my plastic window I use Meguiar's Plastx. A clear plastic cleaner and polisher. It removes fine scratches, oxidation and grime, and haze. Requires a lot of elbow grease, but works.

Peter


1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.

[hauser]

Peter, I find that the only way to get my window clean is with the special plastic cleaners.  Is there a way to keep your window from attracting dirt like a magnet?

My good friend Mike Salemi owns a car wash and has no problem taking his award winning 280sl there for a bath.  As he has told me before it's just water.

Now I would if your seals are good and your drain lines are clear and you don't force water into certain areas then it's fine to wash the car.  for quick drying you may want to try a water blade.  It's made by the Clifornis Duster people.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[Peter van Es]

quote:Originally posted by hauser

Peter, I find that the only way to get my window clean is with the special plastic cleaners.  Is there a way to keep your window from attracting dirt like a magnet?

Mine used to get cloudy after a season... the Meguiars special plastic cleaner cleared that up. Now when I fold my soft top I lay a terrycloth towel over the plastic window so that the the plastic does not touch anything else. It seems to help keep the plastic window clean.

Currently I've got the hard top up, as it's cold here now. Today it was below zero (centigrade) all day, and dry and sunny, so I treated myself to a nice long drive... Yeah! This is my car, today, in front of the characteristic architecture of the Beeld en Geluid institute.



Peter

1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.

[mdsalemi]

Peter,

Water in and unto itself is rarely the cause of rust and corrosion on cars; it is more often other things like salt, and this can come from salt on the roads, and salt air, too, in coastal areas.

Acid rain, and sunlight are more the cause of paint issues than water.

As Hauser mentioned, I own a car wash (self-serve and touchless automatic) and have no problem taking my car to my own wash.  But forget my car for a moment.

I see many, many cars and trucks all day, every day.  I see 10 year old Fords that look better than those in the showroom; I also see 5 year old cars identical, that look like they've been hit with buckshot, the rust and corrosion is that bad.  These are people who simply don't wash their cars often enough, or properly.  You need a lot of water.

I've seen 20 year old cars with superb paint jobs, and 10 year old cars with the fading so bad it you can't tell what color it is (well, probably silver, white or black   ), or with the paint peeling.

What's the difference between the cars that look good and those that don't?  Proper exterior maintenance combined with garaging.

The car's paint needs to be cleaned; you need detergents and solvents to get dirt and road grime off.  If you drive your car in the winter, you need to take extra care to get the salt off.  If you live anywhere near the coast, you need to do this all the time to remove the salt from salt air.  You can do this in a touchless fashion, but often you need a little friction, too.  You need to protect the paint with high quality wax, natural or synthetic.  You need to rinse off the emulsified oils, and the dirt and salt with the detergents.  You do that with a certain amount of water.  You can do it at home with a bucket and hose, or you can do it at a car wash.

You would be better off ensuring all your drainage is proper, and doing a proper wash job using proper chemicals and water then the method you are using.

I choose not to drive my car in the rain, but not because it causes rust or corrosion, but because it leads to dirt getting into places where it must be hosed off.

You want to talk extreme?  When I wash my car prior to a show, I take it to my wash.  I remove the wheel covers and wash them gently in the kitchen sink, and dry them as if they were fine china.  I jack up one side of the car, and remove the wheels.  I spray a hi-pH, concentrated detergent all on the underside of my car--everywhere.  I let it sit, and then hose it off at 1100 PSI with my wand-gun.  I then repeat for the other side.  Wheels inside and out get washed separately.  Wheel lugs get anti-seize reapplied and they get replaced.  When all is said and done the entire car gets rinsed with spot free water in copious amounts at 260 PSI.  Then, I give it the clay bar treatment.  After that, I towel dry it with clean or new micro-fiber towels.  Then begins the wax and detail process, all by hand...now that's extreme, but thorough and proper.

Any questions??

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[hauser]

In short I would like to add;  Dirt attracts moisture and moisture will cause rust.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[perry113]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Peter,

Water in and unto itself is rarely the cause of rust and corrosion on cars; it is more often other things like salt, and this can come from salt on the roads, and salt air, too, in coastal areas.

Acid rain, and sunlight are more the cause of paint issues than water.

As Hauser mentioned, I own a car wash (self-serve and touchless automatic) and have no problem taking my car to my own wash.  But forget my car for a moment.

I see many, many cars and trucks all day, every day.  I see 10 year old Fords that look better than those in the showroom; I also see 5 year old cars identical, that look like they've been hit with buckshot, the rust and corrosion is that bad.  These are people who simply don't wash their cars often enough, or properly.  You need a lot of water.

I've seen 20 year old cars with superb paint jobs, and 10 year old cars with the fading so bad it you can't tell what color it is (well, probably silver, white or black   ), or with the paint peeling.

What's the difference between the cars that look good and those that don't?  Proper exterior maintenance combined with garaging.

The car's paint needs to be cleaned; you need detergents and solvents to get dirt and road grime off.  If you drive your car in the winter, you need to take extra care to get the salt off.  If you live anywhere near the coast, you need to do this all the time to remove the salt from salt air.  You can do this in a touchless fashion, but often you need a little friction, too.  You need to protect the paint with high quality wax, natural or synthetic.  You need to rinse off the emulsified oils, and the dirt and salt with the detergents.  You do that with a certain amount of water.  You can do it at home with a bucket and hose, or you can do it at a car wash.

You would be better off ensuring all your drainage is proper, and doing a proper wash job using proper chemicals and water then the method you are using.

I choose not to drive my car in the rain, but not because it causes rust or corrosion, but because it leads to dirt getting into places where it must be hosed off.

You want to talk extreme?  When I wash my car prior to a show, I take it to my wash.  I remove the wheel covers and wash them gently in the kitchen sink, and dry them as if they were fine china.  I jack up one side of the car, and remove the wheels.  I spray a hi-pH, concentrated detergent all on the underside of my car--everywhere.  I let it sit, and then hose it off at 1100 PSI with my wand-gun.  I then repeat for the other side.  Wheels inside and out get washed separately.  Wheel lugs get anti-seize reapplied and they get replaced.  When all is said and done the entire car gets rinsed with spot free water in copious amounts at 260 PSI.  Then, I give it the clay bar treatment.  After that, I towel dry it with clean or new micro-fiber towels.  Then begins the wax and detail process, all by hand...now that's extreme, but thorough and proper.

Any questions??

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

Thanks for all the feedback
Michael.

I agree at times there are situation which require use of water. Taking off hupcaps and washing are a perfect example. If you need to degrease an area of your engine or driveline I agree. I agree salt causes corrosion.

I believe paint needs to be cleaned using proper cleaning agents, most which can be used without the use of water. Quick clean sprays or PreSol (body shop solvent are good examples). Claybar is excellent to clean prior to polishing. It requires use of water, but can be done without use of hose or high pressure water application. You can use a sponge to wet then rinse, This can be done safely without soaking the car and kept from body seamed areas where water can penetrate the hull.

You have to have all drainage properly working as the factory designed.

Quote:
I spray a hi-pH, concentrated detergent all on the underside of my car--everywhere. I let it sit, and then hose it off at 1100 PSI with my wand-gun. I then repeat for the other side. Wheels inside and out get washed separately. Wheel lugs get anti-seize reapplied and they get replaced. When all is said and done the entire car gets rinsed with spot free water in copious amounts at 260 PSI.

Wow! I've done this to really dirty cars typically everday driving cars or cars pulled out of the fallen down barn. Maybe on some classic that really really needs a complete major deatiling or during a restoration process, but never never ever on my 230SL or other sports cars. With the kind driving I do many thousand per year during dry days my undercarraiges never require any high pressure water. High pressure water will push water everywhere including into the hull (inside the rockers and in between wheel well and fender areas. The places where you despise even just one drop.

What hapens when water is put on bare metal. Within minutes you will see rust form. Whether its a restored car with sheetmetal thats been either properely or inproperly replaced or completely original there are areas within the car's structure that have unprotected metal surfaces. Soaking a car on a regular basis without the presense of salt will most certainly increase the chances of rust.

My concerns about rust reflect where I reside and also bcause I'm in dier need of a car shrink.

Boy oh boy am I praying for spring to come early this coming year.

Peter Perry
located in snow slushy salty Upstate NY
1972 911 (undercover)
1965 230SL (undercover)
1959 MGA (undercover)
1975 Maserati Bora (undercover)
1971 Caprice Classic (boat undercover)
1951 MGTD barnfind(sleeping since 1961 undercover with a blownup motor awaitng a major service)
1965 Morgan (with Dad in Florida)

[Bob G]

Well let me jump in here. first I agree  with michael. Rust is caused by the salt laid down on eastern city roads and contamination in the air and road that ends up inside the wheel arch lips and underbody. After being in the auto appearance care business since 1970 now retired. Believe me a bath once in awhile  will not harm the SL neither will a good polish to the paint and chrome.

I will not repeat what  michael has just said only that I  close the cowl vent levers and mask off the chrome vent to keep water out just  to be safe. There are lots of places you can use a small compact vacuum blower to remove water from crevices.
If you have any questions pretaining to auto detail subjects  I would be more than happy to address them.
Happy Holidays & a safe New Year
Bob Geco
1968 280SL dads car
1987 ford Mustang LX 5.0 coupe all orginal paint
1992 Mercedes-Benz 300-E sportline black on black hate black but they are beautifull when clean.

[mdsalemi]

Peter,

quote:
I believe paint needs to be cleaned using proper cleaning agents, most which can be used without the use of water. Quick clean sprays or PreSol (body shop solvent are good examples).

Water itself is a solvent, and is used to take away from your car, the salt, dirt, grime, and emulsified junk that the detergents and organic solvents loosen.  They can't be removed except with water, or perhaps loosening it as you suggest and then wiping away.  I don't believe you are doing anything good by "washing" your car with Quick Detailers.  Using Presol to wipe your car down?  Absolutely not!  That takes off EVERY BIT of protection the wax is adding to the paint surface.  Presol is designed for one thing, and one thing only--a prep prior to paint.  Use it as intended; unless of course, you re-apply the wax...

quote:Claybar is excellent to clean prior to polishing. It requires use of water, but can be done without use of hose or high pressure water application. You can use a sponge to wet then rinse, This can be done safely without soaking the car and kept from body seamed areas where water can penetrate the hull.

I use the claybar after the washing.  It works best when you are using it on an exceptionally clean surface, where the clay is only working on pulling embedded junk out of the paint surface.  I use the water and high pressure to make my paint surface exceptionally clean.

quote:Wow! I've done this to really dirty cars typically everday driving cars or cars pulled out of the fallen down barn. Maybe on some classic that really really needs a complete major deatiling or during a restoration process, but never never ever on my 230SL or other sports cars. With the kind driving I do many thousand per year during dry days my undercarraiges never require any high pressure water. High pressure water will push water everywhere including into the hull (inside the rockers and in between wheel well and fender areas. The places where you despise even just one drop.

Peter, I described my cleaning process, as I noted, for cleaning prior to a show.  I'm somewhat less rigorous in more regular washing, but always use water, and always use a hose.  Every time.  I failed to mention that my car is a show car but is no trailer queen.  I have no trailer.  It drives everywhere it goes.  Every show it goes to, it drives there; often times, hundreds of miles..  And, it is always in Show Class where the judge the underside, too.    Sometimes my cleaning process is thwarted when I hit rain along the way.  My car was restored about 7 years ago, and has nearly 13,000 miles added to it in that time.

quote:What hapens when water is put on bare metal. Within minutes you will see rust form. Whether its a restored car with sheetmetal thats been either properely or inproperly replaced or completely original there are areas within the car's structure that have unprotected metal surfaces. Soaking a car on a regular basis without the presense of salt will most certainly increase the chances of rust.

If you had any bare metal on your car, I'm sorry to say it is long gone.  Water only accelerates what oxygen does naturally.  The metal might have been bare once, but it isn't bare today if your sheet metal wasn't peened and presol'd a few moments ago.  Water will accelerate a little surface rust, and that's OK--it's the corrosion you have to worry about, and that's where the inorganic salts come into play.  You want to get them out of your car.  There's also electrolysis at work, too.  The salts, combined with metal and water act as an active destroyer of metals.  Have you ever heard of a sacrificial anode on a boat? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode

If you keep your car dry all the time, and I mean ALL the time, you probably don't need any water; you are right.  I garage my car but it gets driven.  I'm a car wash professional, I know that what I'm doing is better for the conditions that I see and face than using a spray bottle of something.  We use as much salt on the roads here in Detroit than in upstate NY, so I am just as concerned about this as you.  I should say, though, that my car is used from April through October, and is garaged during the winter.  I will, however, take it out in the winter for an Italian tuneup if the pavement is dry.

Where we differ is that you appear to be afraid of water, like water is the cause of something bad--I use water as a tool to help me get rid of what I really fear--salts, dust, dirt, grime, and road film.

I have no fear of taking my 280SL to any self-serve car wash.  I have no fear of water in and around this car.  My car, and its paint job can handle what I give it.  I do not fear 1100 PSI on my undercarriage.

I would suggest that many, many more cars have rusted and rotted away (including my own prior to its rescue from my deceased Uncle's lack of care and prior to its restoration) from no washing, and no water, than from a meticulous owner who cleans his/her car regularly with water.  Just a hunch, though.

I also think garaging has a lot to do with a car's longevity.  Things do dry out in a garage.

"Oh, but there's just ONE MORE THING" as they say on the Fear Factor show.  My car wash has 5 bays; each bay has a pit.  The pit measures 3 wide, 6 feet long, and 6 feet deep.  Inside those pits, over the course of a year, collects the most disgusting witch's brew of toxic, corrosive, foul-smelling MUCK.  The WATER which flows into it goes to the sanitary sewer; the oils float on top.  Annually, I hire a licensed waste hauler to suck up this muck using a huge vacuum truck.  I must maintain an EPA site license and I am personally responsible for this "from cradle to grave" which is why I hire a licensed hauler.  The hauler puts this muck through a treatment process where the oil is separated and reprocessed (into those 30-weight cheap generic oils); the liquids other than oil (water) go into the sanitary sewer at the treatment facility, and the solids are dried and landfilled.  In muck form, I "collect" over 1,000 gallons of this per year.

Now, where do you think all this corrosive muck, acids, oils, grease, dirt, sand and such comes from?  Your car.  How do I get it off your car and into my pits?  Water.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[J. Huber]

I think we agree you have to get the muck and grime off. It's just a matter of how that seems to be in question. Another method I use is the "wet towel" trick. We keep our everyday vehicles (Tahoe & F-150 SuperCrew) clean by washing with McGuires Carwash quite often. After rinsing and drying, I usually take the wet towel and give my car a wipe down. I finish with the rockers and rear valence where a lots of road stuff accumulates. Then dry it all with a clean towel. I wouldn't do this on a dirty car -- but on a fairly clean one, I think it gets works fine.

James
63 230SL

[mdsalemi]

Hey, what else can I say?  If there are a number of owners who want to "wash" their car with a towel and a spray bottle, by all means to each their own.  My experience tells me to do otherwise.

I've been using the methods I describe without any issues.  My car's resume show the results of my efforts.  My paint job remains one that people envy; I didn't paint it but I do maintain it.  With lots of water.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[J. Huber]

Michael, believe me, I consider you the expert in all things car wash. I completely see your points and hope others will heed your wisdom. I was just sharing my sort of unorthodox methods which seem to be ok for my situation. Thanks for the insight.

And while I have you here -- I have a car wash question. 1. Do you advise the "clearcoat/wax" cycle? What does it do exactly? I think all my vehicle have clearcoat.

James
63 230SL

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by J. Huber

Michael, believe me, I consider you the expert in all things car wash. I completely see your points and hope others will heed your wisdom. I was just sharing my sort of unorthodox methods which seem to be ok for my situation. Thanks for the insight.

And while I have you here -- I have a car wash question. 1. Do you advise the "clearcoat/wax" cycle? What does it do exactly? I think all my vehicle have clearcoat.

James
63 230SL

James,

That's not an easy question to answer!  But I'll give you the possibilities.

The "clearcoat/wax" cycle rarely contains wax.  It generally contains some chemicals that do two things (if you want MSDS data I can get that).  The first thing it does is create a "break" with that danged water thing, so as to make it easier to dry.  It causes the water to bead up and flow around the surface rather then spread out; with power dryers this beaded up water is easy to blow off.  Call it the polar opposite of a surfactant.  The second thing it does is impart somewhat of a shine, though it isn't a real wax shine and is only designed to last between washings--maybe a week or so.  Some offer some level of protection depending on the manufacturer--various UV inhibitors, etc.

Depending on the manufacturer, there are some that offer "real" wax, both silicone based; carnauba based; or siliconized carnauba in their wax cycle but it isn't generally called a clear coat.  In my wash this is offered in the top wash which is a foamed wax.  It is applied with an air mixture and is foamed on the car. (For show purposes it is colored and has a scent as well, but these do nothing except please the customer)

In most washes, really, the top wash (most expensive) does offer the most expensive applications of the most expensive chemistry.  I maintain 12 different chemicals in my wash, as well as a 60 GPM water softener, and a 3000 GPD reverse osmosis system to create spot free water; I store 300 gallons of RO water; the water is as important as anything else I use.  That's why I soften it and also have the spot-free water, too.

Now aren't you glad you asked?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[Douglas]

Michael,

Thanks for all that information. Very informative. Since I take my wife's silver Volvo wagon to car washes on occasion, let me ask you this—can you supply a quick checklist of 5-10 things that tell you right off the bat whether a car wash is decent? Just the telltale signs that are readily apparent. I'd appreciate seeing that, as I'm sure others would too. Many thanks.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[thelews]

I just came back from our local touchless wash (automatic, sit in car).  I'm in Wisconsin, this year, lots of snow and salt.  My classics never see this kind of weather, just the daily drivers.  What I don't understand is why after a good bottom blast, two applications of detergent, a high blast rinse, a lower blast sheeting action type gloss enhancer and then a light rinse of spot free water, my car still looks like hell.  When I drive out and get under the first overhead street light, I can clearly see the dirt film from outside the wiper path and of course plenty that I don't see.  I buy these washes 100 at a time for my family just so we get the heavy crap off in the winter and spray the underside, but the film will not go away without some abrasion, a nice soft wash mitt loaded with soap and water.  Also, the car wash soap is murder on the anodized aluminum.

FWIW, I took delivery of my 190 SL in May 07 and bought two other classics since then.  I've never washed any of them.  Basically used damp (sometimes wet)towels, detailer and whatever else was needed.  The 190 SL was towed 800 miles on an open trailer to a 5 day convention and back, driven there as well and kept outside in the parking lot.  Some rain on the way home.  The others haven't seen precipitation to any significant degree.  Were I to get into a real wet, dirty situation though, nothing would substitute for a gentle wash.  I've been detailing cars for fun for forty years.  Here's the 190 SL after the trip.  Best of show 2006 (probably last saw water in 8/06).  Higher score than best of show winner 2007 (preservation class, can't compete concours for 5 years after a win).





John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

[perry113]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Hey, what else can I say?  If there are a number of owners who want to "wash" their car with a towel and a spray bottle, by all means to each their own.  My experience tells me to do otherwise.

I've been using the methods I describe without any issues.  My car's resume show the results of my efforts.  My paint job remains one that people envy; I didn't paint it but I do maintain it.  With lots of water.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL

I think alot of what you say makes sense, you know your business.

I would think an all original even down to the original undercoating 0 rust car would be a good example, one that's completely water tight on the bottom and one with 0 water leaks within the trunk area, would have no problem with what you say.

Unforunately my car along with many others on the forum have had some type of rust related repairs. Ask any body man what will happen of any water gets inside a 113 tube or rocker panel and water becomes trapped. Ask any bodyman or sheetmetal expert and they will validate my views on the effects of water and moisture on chrome and metal on any old vehicle. RUST RUST RUST.

I was recently looking at a 1957 Chrysler 300C that just had 75K worth of body paint and interior work. It's 98% done and still in final reassembly. I asked the shop who perfromed the work, would they put a hose on this car and they stoppped and said "no way. It's not necessary for a car like this"

It's just someone else's point of view.

My perspective comes from seeing the sheetmetal bill along with paint not including interior chrome or mechanical was nearly 20K 13 years ago on the very car I own. A car that has 54000 original miles no less. I can't afford to get my car wet. I'm probably overthinking it. It's the presevatioist in me. I'm just sharing another viable option for those on the forum who may have cars potentialy more prone to rust (even if its in the owners head) than your car may be.

If I get caught in a rain storm, all well. Stuff happens. You have to wash the car. Then I go back keeping it dry again until you get caught again.

I appreciate the feedback from all who spoken.

That's the beauty a forum. Were getting out excellent points of view's based on our experiences living with and using these beautiful machines.

Peter

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by thelews

I just came back from our local touchless wash...what I don't understand is why...my car still looks like hell...I can clearly see the dirt film from outside the wiper path. Also, the car wash soap is murder on the anodized aluminum.

John,

Some answers:

1)  The first problem area you are speaking about is called the "eyebrow" and is the nemesis of all car wash owners.  In a nutshell, this area is layer upon layer of dirt/grease/grime/oil etc. that was on your windshield; you've loosened it with water, rain, and washer solvent, and thrown it off the wipe area and concentrated it into the eyebrow area...layer upon layer upon layer.  It gets baked in the sun, too.  You've done this maybe 100 times between washings.  It is one of the most difficult things to remove.  For example, we had snow on Saturday and Sunday.  I've gone through nearly 2 gallons of washer solvent alone on my car.  Do you have any idea of what is contained in my car's eyebrow today?  How many layers are created by the use of 2 gallons of solvent?  I probably had my wipers on 200 times in the past 48 hours, squirting each time.

Now, it can EASILY be removed in two ways--first, by the use of acidic, low-pH chemicals (typically applied in the first detergent pass)that contain Hydroflouric Acid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid or Ammonium Biflouride (which turns to HF) http://www.carwash.com/article.asp?IndexID=6631269 .  This will remove the most stubborn of eyebrow.  Problem is the stuff is nasty, hard on concrete and equipment, and dangerous to breathe.  Typically prudent owners don't use it but damn it works really well.  I don't use it except to clean the walls of the car wash with a bunny suit and respirator.

The second thing that will remove it is a little friction.  Yes, you need to get outside and wipe the glass.  Most of the stuff is loosened it just isn't all removed.  You simply need to adjust your expectations on what the touchless can do.  I could make it clean the glass, at the expense of the rest of your car; your health, and my equipment.  Best to simply understand how it all works and just wipe it clean.

The second challenge you present is road film.  The best of the touchless car washes will get maybe 95% of the road film off the car; if you are a frequent user of these, the road film builds up over time.  Some film is really nasty; like that from parking at an airport where the jet-fuel fallout occurs.  Periodically you need to perform a little friction (not abrasion!) to wipe off the road film; best done when the car is still damp after the wash; the film is a little loosened.  A quick wipe with a microfiber towel will get most of it off.  If you have a dark or black car it is more noticeable then on other colors.

You know those days when it is cold at night but warm during the day?  We have them in spring and fall around here, when there is a lot of dew forming on cars left outside.  That dew dissolves and bonds the dirt and road film like epoxy.  Those days, touchless washing simply does not work.

Speaking of expectations, don't expect a touchless wash to be a de-icing station.  Yesterday, an F150 was about to come into my wash; he had all 8" of the recent snowfall on the hood, the roof, and the cover of his back.  I reminded him that first, the wash isn't a snow removal tool.  Second, that if the detergents can't get to the painted surface because of snow, the truck will NOT get clean.  He drove away disgruntled, but better disgruntled with the money in his pocket than after spending $7 and finding out there's still a lot of snow and ice on the truck and it's still dirty!

Many of my regular customers are quite ritualistic in their washing, and their expectations are in line with the technology.  When their car is exceptionally filthy, they'll do a hand-wash in the bay followed by the automatic wash.  They'll use my foam brushes (soft, expensive horsehair that they clean before use) as their tool of friction.  Frequently I see some customers in washing their car 3-5 times a week.  After the automatic part, they pull into a parking area, and wipe down their entire cars (including inside door sills, trunk sills, under the hood, etc.) with towels or microfiber cloths.  Some then go into their kit-bag in the trunk and pull out Windex and do the windows in and out; vinyl inside the car outgasses and puts a cloudy film inside the car's glass that's almost as bad as a smoker's car.

Regarding aluminum: some aluminum trim does indeed get a cloudy white film on it as soon as a hi-pH detergent hits it.  The aluminum trim on the W113 is a prime example.  A very small amount of metal polish--any kind--on any kind of rag will have this off and the trim sparkling in moments.  I discovered this long ago, and it has nothing to do with the car wash; it's the detergent.  It happened to my trim the first time I used Zymol car wash at home in my driveway.  Interesting to note my trim did this once and once only; after I polished it with blu-mol it has never come back.  My trim looks pretty good, too.

Car wash technology has gotten to the point where cars and trucks are measured now for size; they have not figured out a way to put a metric on what comprises the dirt on any given car yet.  We also can't adjust the water temperature on a day by day or car by car basis, and this makes a big difference.

Hope this helps.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

Michael,

Thanks for all that information. Very informative. Since I take my wife's silver Volvo wagon to car washes on occasion, let me ask you this—can you supply a quick checklist of 5-10 things that tell you right off the bat whether a car wash is decent? Just the telltale signs that are readily apparent. I'd appreciate seeing that, as I'm sure others would too. Many thanks.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

That's tough but I'll try.

1)  Look around.  Is the place clean and maintained, or dirty with broken equipment?  To me broken equipment leads to vandalism.  I keep it all working.

2)  Look at the concrete in the bays.  Is it worn away?  That's a sign of very strong acids being used.  You do need a lo-pH in a 2-step automatic to get the glass clean, however.

3)  Is the owner's telephone number on the door or somewhere else?  If you can call the owner, he's probably OK.  If they are evasive, avoid them.

4)  Do they have a refund policy?  I refund all problems, but try to get to the bottom of what caused the problem by asking questions.  So, a no questions asked policy is stupid; the owner is blinding refunding money without thinking.  No refunds is worse.

5)  Can you talk to the owner?  Ask what kind of chemicals he uses and who is suppliers are.  No secrets to this.

6)  Do they wipe down your car after the wash on a tunnel?  Makes a big difference in the final appearance.

7)  If a tunnel (friction) wash, what condition are the soft cloth brushes in?  Do they look worn?

 In a self serve, look at the offerings.  See if they work.  I use high quality products at recommended dilutions (it's not rocket science, my friends) and people tell me all the time they come to my wash because the "soap is good".  Maybe other owners dilute too much or use real cheap stuff; it simply doesn't work well.

9)  Check the pressures of the guns.  Too high is dangerous.  Too low doesn't work.

10) Watch out for cheaters: too much suds means you have to spend more money to rinse it off!  Doesn't translate to better soap.  Suds, color and scent do nothing to affect the power of the detergent.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[thelews]

Michael,
Thank you for your comments.  Much of it I agree with, some new things learned.  My expectations are not high for the touchless, I really just want to get the heavy stuff off in the winter.  In a day the car will be a mess again anyway.   And, yes, I meant friction, not abrasion.  Before I had the classics and took better care of the daily drivers, I'd go to the touchless and then come home and wipe the entire car down in the garage with a damp rag, surfaces, under the doors, trunk, hood, sills and wheels.  Then do the windows with Stoners.  But, now that I have more worthwhile cars to allocate my time to, in spring, I give the daily driver a thorough hand wash, clay and then coat with non- wax Symix Supreme Shield, http://www.simixsolutions.com/aboutus.html , a great product shown to me by the local MB dealership.  Very easy to use and lasts.  Then it's back to winter and taking what you get at the wash.

BTW, I've used the Simix Supreme Shield on my classics as the top coat after a polish and glaze.  Gorgeous.  Great on glass, chrome and plastic too.

John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

[hauser]

I would like to add a couple items to Michael's list.  I look at the quality of the suds brush of the self serve bays.  I'll pick the bay that has the best brush.  I also wash down the brush with high pressure soap to make sure there are no remnants of dirt that will scratch my paint.  It also doesn't hurt to do a hands on inspection of the brush to check if something may transfer to your car.  I also like it if there is a spot free rinse option available.  If it's working properly it will make a big difference in the final product.

with automatic tunnels I avoid brushes a cloth strips.  I will only use a touch-less system.  It's like driving your car through a giant dishwasher.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.