Author Topic: Time flies  (Read 9902 times)

thelews

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Time flies
« on: December 07, 2007, 07:29:30 »
Time literally flies in the 250 SL.  The clock will pick up about 1/2 hour a day.  Is there an adjustment?  Thanks, John

John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

jameshoward

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2007, 07:33:47 »
Yes. Remove the clock and you will see an adjuster at the back that has a '+' and '-' sign and arrow indicating which way to turn. It's pretty sensitive so take it easy. You will need to remove the glove compartment first, which is pretty easy. Disconnect the terminals for the light having disconnected the battery. Just watch the spring when you take it out. The clock is held in by 2 knurled nuts and a bracket that holds it against the metal dash panel.

JH
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

graphic66

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2007, 07:42:20 »
After you fiddle with the adjustment it will run slow or fast, but with my experience, never correct. I adjusted it several times, even during storage I ran it on a bench and adjusted several times. It was pretty accurate until I installed it in the car. I finally just bought the quartz version. Now I never ever adjust except for daylight savings. It even stays accurate while in storage. And yes I leave the battery in the car, but that is another debate altogether. So have fun adjusting and resetting. When you get tired of that, get the quartz.

thelews

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2007, 07:54:07 »
quote:
Originally posted by graphic66

 When you get tired of that, get the quartz.



Where is a good source for the quartz version?  Thanks for the quick answers guys.  And, I did find some good information on the technical page too.

John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

enochbell

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2007, 08:58:49 »
John,

The "new" q-movement will get you a more accurate timepiece, but be aware that you will be swapping out what many, including me, consider to be one of the endearing "quirks" of the older model.  The clock you have is a unique electro-magnetically wound mechanical movement.  Not very accurate, prone to blowing its fuse, even more inaccurate with changes in temperature, but endearing just the same.  I rely on mine for ambiance only.  In fact, it makes me happy when it is within 5 minutes of the correct time, which I conveniently keep just an arm's-length away at all times.

Best,
g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

thelews

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2007, 11:45:57 »
My thought was that if there was a good repro quartz clock for a reasonable $$$$, I could swap them.  That way, I can keep the original clock in all its pristine glory, but have a virtually identical one in the dash that keeps correct time.  I don't want to change my original clock to quartz.  This is what I did on my 190 SL, although switching the two clocks takes about 2 minutes.  The original is wind up and the quartz battery, mounted in the glovebox door.  The picture here is of the quartz repro.  http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1937240658&context=set-72157603042682741&size=o  Is there something like this for the 113?

John Lewenauer
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

philmas

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2007, 11:51:50 »
I sent my clock to Palo alto speedometer two months ago to have it converted to quartz.The result is just perfect:

1) The clock is now working (!) :)
2) It's accurate
3) The external appearence remains untouched. 8)

Ah, ok, ok, I know, you won't hear that little "click" every 3 minutes
anymore...I must confess I never heard it anyway as the clock was stuck at 12.00 since I bought the car... ;)


Philippe from Paris
'71 280SL manual 4sp
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 11:53:15 by philmas »
Philippe from Paris
Euro '71 280SL manual 4sp

Kemal

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2007, 12:04:59 »
Hi John,
Your 190SL is gorgeous. You're one lucky guy to have 2 of the best looking cars in the world!
By the way, my 280SL clock is around 20 min slow a week, one of its original characteristics .

Kemal
280 SL Manual 69
Kemal
280SL
Manual LHD69

mdsalemi

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2007, 12:13:17 »
Bears Repeating (no pun)

Clocks of the W113 Era, by Jim Mahaffey

VDO subcontracted the job of building mechanical clock movements to the German firm of Kienzle in about 1958 to about 1975. There were two major patterns of Kienzle movements made. Let's talk about the common, drum-shaped movement. It's a basic Borg-wind, anchor-escapement clock, shock-mounted, built on two nickel-plated brass plates. Winding period is about three minutes (sounds like a muffled jolt.) The balance is not temperature compensated, and usually runs in one jewel. (There are rare examples of two-jewel movements.)
 
Early movements have all brass gears; later movements have plastic escape-wheels with coaxial aluminum flywheels. There are some basic case patterns: 115 (short case), 114 (long case), 113, 107 (SLs have internal lighting and connector blocks on the back), etc... Adjustment is with a jeweler's screwdriver through a port on the back, covered with a paper tape, usually labeled "VDO."

TO ADJUST, set up the clock on a bench with a 12-volt power supply. Make EXTREMELY small movements of the adjustment pinion, and allow the clock to settle for at least 24 hours between adjustments. To get a really fine adjustment can take a week, and it will be spoiled as soon as the car heats up inside. An inability to achieve adjustment indicates wear on the plates. Altitude compensation for the case is provided by a labyrinth vent, hidden under the plastic tape with fuse specs. One of three nuts on the back of the case is warranty-sealed with a two-part plastic lock.
 
Normal failures are as follows:

1.   The thermal fuse. This fuse is installed as a rivet, made of bismuth/tin alloy, and is intended to prevent fire in the rare event of a failure of a flat, phosphor bronze spring on the wind clapper. These fuses eventually fail out-of-specs. A bronze spring separates the electrodes, and the remains of the fuse are usually evident somewhere in the case. I suggest replacing the fuse with lead-tin solder, with the warning that this voids the purpose of the fuse.

2.   Points. Causes stalls at the end of the wind cycle without solenoid meltdown. The precious-metal points can become burned or distorted. Lubricant evaporates and is burned to soot in the points, and this can cause overheating. Metal can also sputter and migrate from point to point. Dress the points with fine abrasive.

3.   Flywheel bearing failure. Causes uneven force on the first wheel and stalls between winds. The heavy steel flywheel on the solenoid plate should not wobble on its bearing. For some reason these things wear out prematurely on some cars, particularly on SLs, and it may be high-frequency vibration related. It is held on its shaft by an E-clip. On later models the clip is built with a bronze tail, so you can't lose it. Replace the flywheel. Lubricate this bearing.

4.   First and second wheel bearing failure, back plate. Causes the clock to stall between winds. The first wheel takes a severe side load from the winder, and this will eventually doodle out the back bearing. The second wheel can also lose its back bearing. Replace the back plate (with attached balance), or repair the bearings. The bearings respond to shrinkage under a staking punch (with subsequent reaming), or to bushing. As good back plates are becoming rare, I find myself resorting to staking punch more and more.

5.   Setting knob (rare). The rubber suspension goes soft, and you can't reach the hands with the setting knob clutch. Use the clock for parts.

6.   Front plate bearings (very rare). The wheels wobble on the front bearings. Use the clock for parts.

7.   Weathering. Red rouge on a cloth wheel can do wonders for the plating on the brass bezel, and even for scratches on the plastic crystal.

8.   Cracked or smashed crystal (very rare). Use the clock for parts. Assure the owner that they're all just alike, and he won't notice the difference if he buys a new one.

9.   Previous repair work (more common). Note extra stickers or the absence of the nut seal. Note a promiscuous use of lubricant. Stalls in mid-wind. Clean it thoroughly.

10.   Salt water immersion. (More common than you'd like to think.) Excellent source of parts - the brass bearing plates are unaffected. Springs will be ruined.

11.   Only seen once: Winding pawl worn out. Clapper spring breakage. Clock possessed by demons.

Suggestions:

Be careful of the cleaning fluid you use to remove old, oxidized lubricant. Most organic solvents will play havoc with the various plastic components. The best is freon, which to my utter dismay is no longer available. Professionals advise the use of detergent in water. Lubricate conservatively, using only fine watch oil. Silicon-based oil is certain not to harm plastic components.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

al_lieffring

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2007, 12:51:08 »
Back when the new production cars first were equiped (~76) with the quartz movement clocks, the replacement clocks sold for the 113 cars also started to come with the same movement instead of the Kinzle auto winding lever movement.
These first quartz movements made a constant growling sound.

Queation; Do the new quartz movements still have this "growler" movement? Or do they have a "stepper" style quartz movement that ticks once a second like the battery powered movements that are in most clocks nowadays?

Al Lieffring
66 230SL

mdsalemi

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 13:01:26 »
Al,

I have a Palo Alto conversion.  Absolutely, 100% silent, no hum, no growl.  Keeps better time than the clock in my computer.  My original never worked so I guess I don't know what I'm missing.

With electronics today, it would be easy to put a simple record module inside the clock to emulate that sound of the wind mechanism that some people seem to miss.  Don't know how you might make the quartz clock inaccurate, but it would sound real. ;)

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 13:02:04 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

waqas

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2007, 14:39:46 »
I tend to agree with Michael et. al., a functional clock is preferable, especially when the replacement is cosmetically identical. In fact, I recently bought ANOTHER nonfunctional clock for my '66 w111 in order to have the quartz upgrade done to it; this way, my original clock remains untouched (but safe in a box at the back of my garage). Nonfunctional original clocks are cheap...

Waqas in Austin, Texas
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

waqas

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2007, 14:41:07 »
quote:
Originally posted by waqas

Nonfunctional original clocks are cheap...


... relatively speaking of course!

Waqas in Austin, Texas
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

mdsalemi

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2007, 15:28:48 »
quote:
Originally posted by waqas

I tend to agree with Michael et. al., a functional clock is preferable, especially when the replacement is cosmetically identical. In fact, I recently bought ANOTHER nonfunctional clock for my '66 w111 in order to have the quartz upgrade done to it; this way, my original clock remains untouched (but safe in a box at the back of my garage). Nonfunctional original clocks are cheap...

Waqas in Austin, Texas



Well, I didn't exactly say that a functional clock was preferable, but actually I do believe it is!  But there are some that want to preserve the idiosyncrasies of a bygone era, with noisy, inaccurate clocks; it's quaint like preserving the ash wood frame on a Morgan (save that Penofin deck stain), or tweaking and balancing the three carbs on an Alfa 2600...Since I've never actually heard the clock sound that is music to some people, I really don't know what I'm missing.  I can tell you if the clock didn't work right it would make me crazy!

During the restoration process one large box with ALL the instrumentation went to Palo Alto along with the directive: "make them all look and act like new" and well, that's exactly what they did. (here's your invoice, sir...[:0])

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

al_lieffring

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2007, 16:10:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

Bears Repeating (no pun)

Clocks of the W113 Era, by Jim Mahaffey

9.   Previous repair work (more common). Note extra stickers or the absence of the nut seal. Note a promiscuous use of lubricant. Stalls in mid-wind. Clean it thoroughly.



This is the one I fear the most and what I spend most of my time doing (undoing, and redoing)

If the pivots and plates are not too worn, a tiny drip of watch oil on each of the pivots and the pins of the anchor escapement will make the clock's regaultion less affected by changes in temp.
Do not, repeat DO NOT spray the movement with WD 40 or any type of spray lubricant, a drip of 3 in 1 oil from the tip of a toothpick makes a good substitute for a watch oiler.

After lubing my pivots and setting the regulating screw, my Kienzle will keeep time to about 1 min a week.

In 1970 Bulova boasted in thier ads that an Accutron watch would kept time to "within 1 minute a month". now any $9.95 watch at Wal-Mart will keep time to a minute a year. Technology has all but eliminated new wind up clocks from the market, Repair parts for the once inexpensive German clocks from the 70's and 80's are disapearing from the clock suply catalogs, the ones that are still there have tripled in price in the last year.

 



Al Lieffring
66 230SL

ted280sl

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Re: Time flies
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2007, 14:17:25 »
John,
  There was another thread today which begged the question; why. The mechanical clocks will run fast when thet are dirty. Dirt limits the travel in the clock mechanism and will speed yup the clock. The adjustment mentioned may allow you to compensate for the dirt but, the answer is to either have the mechanical clock cleaned by a professional or send it to Paqlo Alto and have the mechnism replaced with a quartz movement. I support the position that these types of decisions are a question of personal choice.
Ted 280SL w/ Quartz movement clock