Author Topic: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?  (Read 9117 times)

bpossel

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Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« on: November 27, 2007, 05:14:42 »
As I have taken apart my car for the upcoming repaint, I have wondered how the factory originally painted the items mentioned below since they require adjustment when putting the car together, and/or require removal for regular maintenance during the life of the car.

I understand that the fresh-air scoop and lid were attached with chrome screws so that it can be removed to change the fiber air filter.  So these items were painted off the car.  But items like the spring hood release mechanism appear to have been painted on the car (their holding screws are painted with the bracket...?).

Also the hood hinge(s)???  If left on the hood and painted with the car, when you later have to remove the hinge to be able to remove the hood, the paint would crack around the bolts and bracket???

Does anyone have any insight on the original factory process?

Here are the items in question:

1. Hood hinges & holding brackets
2. Hood release latch (spring mechanism)
3. Hood catch plate & screws (adjusted to fit spring latch)
4. Hood fresh-air scoop & air scoop lid off the car.  
5. Soft top lid (requires adjustment and removal to install the padding)
6. Trunk access panels (requires removal for lic plate, etc..)

 :) Thanks!
Bob

bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 05:16:57 by bpossel »

mbzse

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 12:25:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by bpossel

As I have taken apart my car for the upcoming repaint, I have wondered how the factory originally painted the items ¨.../...anyone have any insight on the original factory process?

A most interesting subject that you bring to the table, Bob. A definite matter to be included into this Group's technical database, covering the W113. Step by step we should gather information, to have an authorative guide for restorers.
As a basic documentation, I attach below the text from an article published in 1963 in the M-B factory magazine "In Aller Welt". W113 enthusiast Frank Mallory (RIP) put this into digital form.

For W113 group members who became interested in these matters recently (or are new members) I refer to Tom Colitt, yourself and others who posted on this Forum about a year ago.
http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=6318

NEW VEHICLE PAINTING PLANT IN SINDELFINGEN
(from Mercedes-Benz in aller Welt #64, 7/1963)
     As supplied by Frank Mallory
Day in, day out, thousands of cars, gleaming with new paintwork and chrome-plated trim, are released from the assembly lines of automotive engineering plants.
Quite understandable, proud owners of a new Mercedes expect the brand-new appearance of their cars to last for years. Paintwork of vehicles is constantly exposed to the risk of corrosive attack, particularly by thawing salts, soot, sulfur dioxide-bearing fumes and the like. Corrosion can also be caused by mechanical damages, e.g., by impact of stones against the underbody of cars. Already for years, automotive and chemical industries have closely co-operated with a view to combating corrosion. Improvement of protection from corrosion was one of the chief requirements, on which planning of the new vehicle painting plant in Sindelfingen was based.
Since recently, the plant operates at full capacity; design and layout include all the advances made through the years and fully satisfy all demands of increased protection against corrosion. A visit to the new plant is rewarding indeed. The vast shed, flooded with daylight, is criss-crossed by conveyors on floor level, in mid-height and overhead arrangement, running, so it seems, aimlessly in all directions, carrying car bodies in a wide variety of color tones slowly dipping down and disappearing into a long, dark duct. Under the expert guidance of Mr. Hafemann, the engineer in charge, we very soon realize that the plant operates on a carefully planned working schedule.
The metal-finished bodies are transported by overhead conveyor to the painting plant through a tunnel of 2,300 ft. length. First, the steel sheet, which shows a bluish sheen, is pre-cleaned by hand. Thereafter, the bodies progress to the washing and phosphatizing station, which is about 300 ft. long. After thorough removal of any remaining dirt and grease, the metal surfaces are provided with zincphosphate coating, which safely prevents rust formation at places, where the paintwork is damaged, and at the same time forms an adhesive base for the initial paint coat.
Next, the prime coat is applied by dipping at two stations in parallel arrangement. The body dips slowly into a bath of 10 x 23 ft., which contains no fewer than 52 tons of paint. At the bottom of the bath, the body is tilted; the air trapped in the hollows escapes and forms vast bubbles on the bath surface. Then the body is lifted out of the bath and the surplus paint allowed to drip off. For each body, more than 26 lbs. of paint are used. The dip coating method ensures easy access of the paint to remote corners, hollow spaces, etc.
Following dip coating, the body is transported along the conveyorized line to the drying oven, where it is dried by dark infra-radiation and a subsequent steam-drying section for 20 minutes at a temperature of 284 deg. F. Cooling is followed by treatment of the underbody in the PVC booth. By subsequent baking, the solvent-free agent provides a tough yet elastic coating, which protects the underbody from corrosion.
After each station, workpieces are rigorously tested. No car body is released for the next phase unless its paintwork is perfectly finished and fully free from blemishes or other faults and defects. All Mercedes-Benz cars receive four paint coats. After drying of the prime coat, the finish coats are applied by spraying. Bodies receive their second coating by the electrostatic method: a rotating disk with a voltage of 100,000 V charges the finely dispersed paint particles, which are attracted by the nearest negative pole, i.e., the body, on which they settle.
After passing through the continuous baking oven and the subsequent cooling station comes a sanding step. Then the bodies progress down the return line to the pre-finishing booth where the paint is applied by hand spraying guns in the final color tone of the vehicle. Again, the body is passed through the drying oven and thence to the sanding station. By thorough cleaning, all metal surfaces are prepared for the final coat.
Next, the body is heat treated at a temperature of 266 deg. F so as to allow the synthetic resin constituents of the paint to solidify. Finally, the body is discharged from the baking oven with a gleaming, corrosion-resistant finish. Once again, all bodies are tested before they are released for final assembly. Prior to leaving the painting plant through the tunnel mentioned above, the luggage compartment and the beads are given a sprayed-on protective wax coating.
Vehicle painting requires a maze of complicated auxiliary equipment. Air consumption for suction removal of the paint mist is in the region of 53 million cft. per hour. Plant design ensures that clean, conditioned air is supplied to the spraying booths; after removal of the paint particles, the air is discharged to the outside. For air scrubbing, an hourly circulation rate of 176,000 cft. water (307 Imp. gals. per second) is required. Work of the washing, phosphatizing and sanding stations largely depends on the availability of water of a high degree of purity. In the ion exchanger, more than 3,000 cft. water per hour are softened and conditioned. By a centrally arranged feeding device, paint is circulated to the various points of consumption through an extensive piping system.
All operations are controlled from a central control station, which is arranged at the front wall and juts out into the shed. The large panels are a maze of mysterious, constantly changing luminous signals, the soft hum of the relays fills the control station. In the control station, heart of the plant, experienced engineers help to maintain and improve the workmanship in Mercedes-Benz vehicles and thus ensure that cars will retain their well-groomed appearance for years in all climatic zones of the world.

.


/Hans in Sweden
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 13:46:24 by mbzse »
/Hans S

bpossel

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2007, 04:57:48 »
Hello Hans,

What a great article!
I had forgotten how good Tom's post was as well.
Thank you!
Bob

bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 05:16:33 by bpossel »

mdsalemi

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2007, 07:43:16 »
Bob (and Hans)

Yes, indeed a great article and look back into what was...

BUT it does NOT answer Bob's questions!!!  And, the original factory process would bear little resemblance to what a body shop would do today.

Bob, I can't be 100% certain, but I did go back through my historical photo collection of my car's restoration process, and it appears as if the car was painted without the hood, tonneau, and trunk deck in place.  It appears as if these were painted separately and then fitted later.

How to deal with the issues you raised?  I can hazard a guess: the first coat or two was done with the parts off the car.  Then, the parts were fitted and adjusted, and then the final coat(s) done.  If it was not done this way, then maybe it was completely painted with all the parts off; and once fitted and adjusted the car was "gone over" and areas such as these adjustment points were re-shot with paint.

Another thing you can do, Bob, is to seek out the best body shops in the area (those that do the work on the usual gang of collectible suspects, MB, BMW, Porsche) and go and talk to them.  They might offer some insight.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

Douglas

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2007, 10:16:04 »
Bob,

I admire your thoroughness. WIth that said, I wanted to ask if you could re-state the questions. I'm not sure if you're looking to establish the proper color (body color vs. black vs. some other color) or to understand the procedure of how these were painted. Perhaps you're trying to establish the former by understanding the latter.

In any event, Michael raises a good point. I'm not clear on what you mean.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

bpossel

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2007, 11:31:06 »
Hi Douglas,

The "parts" mentioned in my original post on this thread are all "adjustable".  If those parts are painted while attached to the car, then when you need to adust them, the paint around the screws will crack and peel off.  The paint around the parts being removed will crack and peel off.

If the parts mentioned are painted "off" the car, painted separately, then they can be removed and adjusted without the crack and peel.

So, my plan is to indeed have them painted "off" the car even if this is not the way the factory did it. Once I get my car back from the painters, I know that I will be removing the trunk access pannels in the future; I know that I will need to adjust the hood and be able to remove in the future; I know that I will need to adjust the soft top lid...

In summary, I was just curious how MB did it years ago.  I was thinking that maybe they painted these items off the car, then put the car together, did fine adjustments, then had someone go around with some touch-up paint to repaint the top of the screws, bolts, etc...

Thanks for all the feedback on this post!
Bob


bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320

Chad

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2007, 18:46:54 »
Taking the hood/bonnet for example and whether it was painted off the car or on the car...  it makes me wonder if these engines were factory installed from below or above. If above, as I would imagine but do not know, it seems likely the hood is painted off the car and then made perfect after installation/adjustment.

Regarding the boot inside color being different from the body color it seems likely to me the boot lid was painted off the car also and then fitted/adjusted.  

Otherwise it would seem labor/time intensive to mask/isolate the interiors or the engine compartment and boot from the underside of the bonnet and boot lid.

I've thought before what an interesting source it would be if there were a member who was a factory worker on these cars from the period.  I wonder if the German site has a retired factory worker who worked on these vehicles on the line?

1967 230SL
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 18:52:00 by Chad »

Tom Colitt

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 02:37:58 »
Hi Bob

I just came across your post and I'm sure you have your answer by now. If not feel free to email me. A quick response to your questions: hinges and screws are painted installed. Engine, transmission and subframe were installed as one unit fromt the bottom. Hood latch is painted in place, but the screws were not always installed. On cars with radio supression spring contact the screws were sometimes installed later. Hood catch lpate and screws are painted in place. Fresh air scoop and hood are painted off the car. Soft top lid can be painted on or off the car. Just like the trunk area the Black paint inside was painted after the body color was done, to cover any overspray from the original paint job. The two small trunk access panels are Dark Grey (Tiefdunkelgrau), just as the rest of the trunk and inside the soft top lid.

Regards, Tom
ClassicAutosLA

Tom Colitt

Tom Colitt

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 02:44:52 »
I do have one addition/ modification to my answer. Even though I paint the inside of the hood with the hinges and screws installed, I do this off the car, since I install the engine by itself from the top, as opposed to the factory process. The outside of the hood is painted with the hood installed, along with the rest of the car. (I also mask the engine bay so I can lift the hood during painting, so I can seamlessly paint the horizontal panel just in front of the windshield as well as that portion that is hidden under the hood, just behind the firewall padding). This was seamless from the factory too.

Tom Colitt

bpossel

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 05:20:34 »
Hi Tom,

Thanks for your replies!

I spoke with the bodyshop yesterday. I decided to have them paint the items off the car.  May not be totally original, but this way I can remove, adjust the hood, ect. and not have the paint crack.  So, hood hinge bolts and washers on my car, when finished, will be unpainted.  Maybe parts like the 4 screws that hold the hood spring pin (hood release), etc. I can go back and touch up with some touch-up paint when the car is complete.  Those type of parts dont need to be adjusted very often.

They asked me if it would be ok for the to soda blast the car.  Do you have any advice on this?  Pros, cons, to soda blasting.

They will be removing the front and rear suspension and they are going to custom build a rotisserie frame for my car.  This way they can do a proffessional job on the underside as well.  With the suspension off, I will be able to replace my rear suspension, trailing arm donut bushings, that I have put off for the past couple of years...  Also maybe tackle the center pin bushing (swing link bushing)...

What modern product do you recommend for the "oe plasticized under coating"?  Recommended "hard, paintable" under coating?

Thanks!!!
Bob

bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320

mdsalemi

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 06:58:02 »
Bob,

I take it your body shop means a dry ice blast when they say soda blast.

Compared to the kind of technology that most places use, this is cutting edge.  Frozen, granulated "dry ice" (which we all know is CO2 or carbon dioxide or soda gas) is used as the blast medium.  Guess what?  It's somewhat hard; provides a good blast (medium cutting), and EVAPORATES meaning not a single grain of sand or glass or walnut shell or any other solid media is there to cause trouble.

If they have this technology and use it, count yourself among the fortunate to have found someone with modern technology!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid

JamesL

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 08:08:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

Bob,

I take it your body shop means a dry ice blast when they say soda blast.

Compared to the kind of technology that most places use, this is cutting edge.  Frozen, granulated "dry ice" (which we all know is CO2 or carbon dioxide or soda gas) is used as the blast medium.  Guess what?  It's somewhat hard; provides a good blast (medium cutting), and EVAPORATES meaning not a single grain of sand or glass or walnut shell or any other solid media is there to cause trouble.

If they have this technology and use it, count yourself among the fortunate to have found someone with modern technology!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America



Will no-one think of the consequences for the environment? :D
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

mdsalemi

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Re: Paint Questions? - How did the factory do it?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 09:47:34 »
quote:
Originally posted by Tosh

Will no-one think of the consequences for the environment? :D



Tosh--I realize you're probably joking with the emoticon.  But, CO2 industrially is a byproduct of certain processes so it is made anyway.  You may as well put it to good use before it goes into the atmosphere!  There is no better use than Bob's car!!!

If you are really concerned, do a carbon credit shift and plant a tree, right? ;)

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2022 Ford Escape Hybrid
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid