Author Topic: Im getting scared  (Read 9050 times)

peterm

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Im getting scared
« on: September 28, 2006, 07:11:24 »
We've had some esoteric discussions about hose clamps, correct cad color for expansion cap tops etc,  How many here are true concours participants vs those who have drivers and are happy the cars run.  I just particpated in the "fairfield concours" in westport connecticut.  It was sort of an ecclectic informal show with no formal judging.  My "driver" was parked between a 60's GT40 that raced for the argentinian team and a pastel yellow 67 275 ferrari (actaully Steve mc Queens car from the Thomas Crown Affair, that was purchased for 3.96 million at the monteray auction last year).  There were Hudson's, a tucker, an amphicar, a few muscle cars, cords, a seinfeld 356, a silver ghost, a few woodies etc etc.   Most cars were trailered few driven.  I know my car isn't really a show car (fortunately there was another pagoda brought in by the original owner! in similar shape).   I was struck by the traffic of spectators and how many people spent time peering into the sl and just were looking at it in general, especially given the company it was in.  I believe the pagoda has a special mass appeal perhaps its identified as an obtainable classic? vs those unobtainable show cars. I've been debating the idea of a strip repaint/ retrim expensive restore which would stop me from driving it at all.   Thoughts?

France

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2006, 09:23:51 »
Weeeellllll, if you went back on this forum through all the threads that talk about present value vs. future value vs. pure fun today, you would probably find that your question answers itself.  Most people who have detailed the expense of a full restore here say that it dwarfs what you could sell the finished result for.  There were  too many units made, and a lot of survivors (thank heavens), so the numbers just don't crunch.  It's not like a Detomaso Longchamp with a 5-speed, of which 17 survive, or a GT40.  My sense is that most people on this forum want a good-looking daily driver, not a trailer queen.  It brings pleasure to them to drive it, and pleasure to all who see it on the road.  Happy motoring!

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
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Austrian Alps
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...

Ricardo

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2006, 09:28:00 »
Hi Peter
My car is a driver, all I could afford and a bit of a project which is what I wanted. It now runs very well and has provided my wife and I countless days (6 years, 15k/year)of throughly enjoyable top down cruising. We are able to travel as far as we like, because the car is very reliable for it's age and we motored to Dr Dan's event this summer, a 10 hour drive from us. The interior (cognac leather) is excellent, with virtually nothing to do....the exterior is another story. A previous owner repainted the car to 501 winerot from it's original 834 moss green metallic and the paint job was poor. The car has dull paint areas, cracked paint that is literally flaking off, a couple of small dings etc. No visible rust, just really tired looking paint.
It's stopped me from taking the car to shows, as there don't seem to be any trophies for the most tired looking paint  :(
I share some of your concerns, as I would like to return it to it's original color, but, and here's the sticky part, we take this car everywhere...dirt back roads, two track roads that aren't even on the maps, through the bush and down to the lake etc., places no one would take a "nice" car. We enjoy the beautiful interior...it's all we see and I keep putting off the repaint, knowing that I'll lose a large measure of the fun of this car when I have to worry about where I can go with it. It's all about driving it for me and not at all about showing it....if I repaint it, I'll have to put some scratches in myself just so I can "let go" of that new paint worry....either that or sell it and find another project car  8)

This sunday will be the only "show" our car sees each year..our town's (Ladysmith pop. 250) 3 day Octoberfest celebration, wherein 10,000 people drop in to eat sausage and sauerkraut, dance to the Bavarian bands and watch the parade of Belgian and Clydesdale horses and vintage auto's....we have the only german car in the parade, so we have to make the effort  :D


rwmastel

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2006, 10:44:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by peterm

I've been debating the idea of a strip repaint/ retrim expensive restore which would stop me from driving it at all.   Thoughts?

Peter,

Only you can decide that.  People like Ricardo, Trice, and myself who love driving the cars will tell you to drive it.  People who love to trailer their cars and show them will tell you to do that.  If you 've been thinking about it, then you must have some interest.  Do you have other classic cars?  Are they drivers or trailer queens?  Maybe you should have one of each!

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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Amanda

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2006, 11:10:46 »
I'm still very much a novice, but I bought my car to be a driver which I can enjoy and appreciate.  I plan to improve it as I have the resources, and in doing so will do my best to keep to originality, but it will always (knock on wood) be driven every where it goes.  I do love it, though, when people slow to admire it!

Amanda
1966 230SL
Manual
Red/Tan
Los Angeles

enochbell

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2006, 12:41:34 »
I really admire the show cars, it gives me great pleasure to see the attention to detail, the finer bits that all fit properly and have perfect countenance, especially the hand work done stuff like the coach work and wood.  

But it would drive me NUTS to own a car like that.  I much prefer my driver, which is in very nice shape mechanically but has some flaws (rust spot in the trunk, chipped paint in those rub areas on the hood and trunk, carpet that doesn't all lay flat as it should, missing the caps on the seatback release levers, door panels a bit mis-aligned, tarnished chrome on the A-pillars, some warp in the speaker grille, rock chip on the windscreen...I could go on but I will spare you and me).  Nobody who admires the car when I park it in the restaurant parking lot, in a normal spot not sideways in some remote corner.  And I don't really mind any of the defects.  And I always have plenty on my to-do list, which is really just an excuse to tinker in the garage while smoking a nice cigar.

Now, if there was a rattle in the door, or if it idled rough, or if there was a vibration in the drive train, or excessive valve noise now THAT would drive me nuts.  Guess that makes me more a gear-head than a collector.

Best,

g





'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

rhersberger

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2006, 12:47:18 »
You can have a very good looking driver that you drive or you can have a show car that you don't drive much. I like Amanda's approach, as, over the years, everything has pretty much gotten rebuilt as I could afford it.  Rear suspension and diff still need some attention, but I'll have similar qualms when I begin seriously thinking about repainting and how much to spend.

The Pagoda is a real classic, as peterm observes.  Every time I park mine somewhere, inevitably someone approaches and wants to talk about it.  "I always wanted one of those."  "I used to have a 190 SL." etc.  The car is all about European style and elegance from the '60s and has not lost its charm 40 years on.

Rod Hersberger

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Bob G

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2006, 16:37:20 »
I like conversations like this, because I live in both worlds and I share both sides of the conversation. My advice to people who ask me about restoring a classic automobile is get a daily driver. I have a work vehical that gets me were I have to go and a 280SL I am restoring for my retirement and a 1987 Ford Mustang LX 5.0. that is both a show driver and sunday car, but not an every day commuter.
with the exceptions of people like Jay Leno who have the income to drive a nice collector car every day. If Jay needs work done he may do it him self or call his restorer Randy Erma and let him bring the car back. Most of use do not have that kind of income at lease not me so I am very conservative and respectfully of were my classic cars go and how they are driven.
Like fine wine if you drink it every day it looses the tast of something special. I want to make driving my 280SL very special for the rest of my life.

Bob Geco

TheEngineer

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2006, 03:13:39 »
For my 70th birthday I wanted to buy a small covertible and settled on a Mazda Miata but my wife talked me into buying: "Another one of those, like we had in the late '60s" She is very smart! She counted, that by now these cars were old, and the project would keep me at home. I don't really mind because it seems I get a lot of satisfaction from restoring something. My car runs well now and I drive it sometimes and I just bought a 1969 Honda Trail 90. The P.O. said, he couldn't get it running in twenty years, it was time to sell it. But it  sure had a poor front brake: Small drum brake. So I installed a disk brake from a CB125. Now I got brakes! Making the fender fit was another story. I'm still working on that! Is that what old engineers do for fun?

'69 280SL,Signal Red,113044-12-007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA
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Ben

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2006, 03:26:10 »
quote:
a pastel yellow 67 275 ferrari (actaully Steve mc Queens car from the Thomas Crown Affair, that was purchased for 3.96 million at the monteray auction last year). There were Hudson's, a tucker, an amphicar, a few muscle cars, cords, a seinfeld 356, a silver ghost, a few woodies etc etc. Most cars were trailered few driven.


........wouldn't that first one be a "trailer McQueen !"  :D

Anyway I have undertaken a large bodywork job on my 230SL, new panels and a full repaint, it will cost more than I think and take at least twice as long as I thought, I havent driven the car in 9 months !

I have withdrawal symtoms, but I am not carrying out the work to increase its value, merely to preserve it and get it looking like it should, but I'll go right back to driving it regularly !!   8)

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

mdsalemi

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2006, 06:24:33 »
Hello PeterM.

No reason to be scared.  Many of these things you call esoteric discussions--and I know they annoy the living daylights out of some of our members here--are simply a matter of making a choice when it comes to making a decision on a repair or part replacement.  A string of choices can yield a horrible car as many of these are (just look at how some of the eBay ones are picked apart here, and that's just by photos!) versus one true to its heritage.

It really doesn't cost much more money to use the proper hose clamps.  If you are painting the car, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to choose a color that was on the list for that year; if you need a cap for the expansion tank, it doesn't take much effort to call a dealer and get one, or at least armed with the knowledge that it is a Behr and marked 100, find the right one.  It also doesn't take a lot of effort to tell your body man about the little notches around the headlights.  The rubber suspension bolts to hang the fuel pump do cost $12 for the set, and I'm sure some have balked at this and used baling wire instead...over the years many of these decisions have been overlooked, ignored because of lack of knowledge, or consciously avoided due to "thrifting".  One of the purposes of this forum is to disseminate this knowledge.

I do have a Concours car, but it didn't start out that way.  I simply told the restorer to do it right, and no "Mickey-Mouse" mechanics or body work.  I'm not afraid to drive it either--two weeks ago I drove about 600 miles round trip on I-94 from Detroit to Chicago for the MBCA 50th Anniversary Concours.  Oh yeah, I felt a bit claustrophobic going through the stop and go construction zones surrounded by gravel haulers and semi-tractor trailers, but I'd probably have felt the same way in any nice car.  Stitchmon thought I was crazy to drive it in the rain to go and see that preproduction 230SL, too.  The car won't melt from a little rain.  Doug Dees, the MBCA Northeast Regional Director, just completed a 280SL restoration and drove his car on the RT66 tour from Toronto to Chicago, and he's pulling into California today.

I'd have felt just as bad with any stone chip on any car, but thankfully I didn't get any!

I'm glad you experienced the Pagoda phenomenah at the Concours in Fairfield; yeah you can be surrounded by cars of pedigree, cars that are very rare, cars that are very expensive...but what gets just as much attention?  The little Pagoda.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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cth350

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2006, 21:16:05 »
Can yo enjoy the car in its current state, warts and all?  

If you can afford the time and money, go ahead and get yours painted. Do what work you can yourself and pay somebody else to do the rest.  If you can't afford the cash, or don't have the patience to wait for the results, just leave it be until you can.

I've met two gullwings in my life. The first one hasn't left the garage since its restoration. What a shameful thing to do to such a fine car.

Take the engineer's advice. Besides, not only is the engineer retired, so is the car.  It won't see "regular service", but it sure isn't going to lie down and play dead either.

-CTH

113gray

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2006, 18:53:25 »
My wife & I have 3 old Benz's, all post war, one of which is a 230SL. I agree wholeheartedly the utmost respect is due those who restore to perfection & take pride in maintaining these cars at that level. I, too, view these with awe & admiration. But we also appreciate, for instance, fine antique furniture. Much of this serves & functions perfectly as it has for many decades. The beautiful patina of the wood & these finishes can only be achieved with time & useage. Many pieces would be ruined beyond repair if they were "restored" to new appearance. Old cars are not old furniture, but still there is also something special about a pretty old vehicle that maintains its personality, still functions mostly without flaw, is mechanically sound, retains most of its original good looks, yet wears its age with grace & pride like many beautiful women do.        -JP-

Longtooth

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2006, 01:45:08 »
My question is why would a proper restoration stop you from driving the car at all?

 
quote:
I've been debating the idea of a strip repaint/ retrim expensive restore which would stop me from driving it at all. Thoughts?


1. How many miles/year have you been driving it the last couple of years?

2. How many miles/year do you intend on driving it moving forward in time without a complete restoration?

3. Are you limited in ability to insure it after restoration?

4. What's the difference in costs or ego between a fender bender in it's current condition and when / if you restore it?

In my perspective... restoration is either dominated by the pride factor or by econonomic return factor.  The latter is only achievable AFTER an extended period of additional appreciation, since, as best I can determine, a complete restoration can't return the cost of doing it without an additional appreciation factor (or specialty factor... "car won best of show at concurs d'elegance"... or "previously owned and driven by Steve McQueen, Paul Newman, & JFK").

A lot is written on this site that promotes daily driving since most of us and most others who intend on owning DO want to drive their W113's for general pleasure and, to varying degrees, the prestige of being seen driving it.

There are a couple of things I would say should be borne in mind...

1. These cars (W113's) will appreciate with time at either close to the rate of general inflation (if not well maintained and accurate), or a higher rates of appreciation the more they retain correct appearance and originality.

2. The more one is driven the more miles goes onto the running gear/engine... the more likely some of these will therefore eventually need replacement/rebuilds at future inflation and reduced availability prices.

3. The more they are used for daily drivers the greater the proportion of them will end up in serious enough accidents to render them incapable of future restoration with numbers matching components, or having only parting-out parts value.

4. The more 2) & 3) occur, the more the others (that are driven less frequently and retain originality... whether repainted, re-upholstered or not) appreciate in value.

Frankly, it makes good long term economic sense for my W113 to be driven as little as possible, retain total originality, and let others drive their's 5k or more miles/year... the more the better.  Statistic's of automobile accident rates (both fault and no-fault) will benefit the value of my vehicle.  Add to this the increases in costs of wear & tear, and fewer and fewer W113's will be maintained.

Note, for example, that only ~50% of the non-exported 280SL's were still registered in GErmany in mid 1990.... if this is extended to the entire volume of 280SL's produced then only ~12k remained in some form of use / potential use in 1990.  That was only roughly 20 years after the 280SL's were produced.  It's now been another 16 years since 1990... so one could surmise that the rate of loss since then is at an even greater rate... say for example an 80% reduction over the last 16 years... hence fewer than 10% of original production might be a reasonable estimate of the number remaining in 2006, or ~2400 280SL's.

Similarly, there were only ~30% of the 230SL's and 250SL's still registered in mid 1990 in Germany, and if extended to total production then only ~ 6k 230SL's and 1.7k 250SL's would have been usable in 1990.  Extending this to the present at a guesstimated 80% loss rate since 1990 would say that there are only ~ 1200 230SL's available now and only 350 250SL's available at current time.

You can't extend the loss rate going forward at the same rate as over the last 16 years... it would tend to be a lower loss rate as fewer and fewer are driven less and less... but a finite loss rate will continue moving forward in time.    Of those still in use at this point in time, how many are able to still be restored to original condition?...  80%? 50%? 20%?  How many are still in original condition?... repainted, reupholstered, rechromed, but still all correct?

Do you know, for example, that only ~1/2 the 250SL's were produced before they made several changes which made the 250SL's have many of the appearances of the 280SL's?  Matte chrome finishes, different door pockets & arm-rests, steering wheel hornrims, rear view mirrors (internal and external) --- commencing with Chassis # 2980... and that the 280SL's retained the all red rear lights until Chassis # 7938 (Feb 07, '69 production date)? [Source: G. Engelen's Vom Barock zur Pagode], & I've read that the US Export models of the 280SL didn't use the orange blicker rear lights until even later (owing to US DOT laws not accomodating it 'til some unknown time later).

My point is only that the more the daily drivers are driven, the more the ones still in original correct condition (restored or otherwise) but less driven will tend to appreciate at a greater rate, due simply to the laws of statistic's in traffic accidents and parts use and availability.

The fear factor described in restoring one's W113 and therefore not driving it (as much) perhaps therefore boils down to whether one can overlook the fixes that will inevitably be required in daily drivers without having to expend the amounts necessary for a correct fix... and frequency of fixes required with probably fewer and fewer mechanic's and shops having the familiarity required to accomplish the correct fixes.

As always, these decisions revolve around ones means (disposable income) and priority of the use of means.  They are always individual decisions that depend on ones own interests or demands in how they spend their time and income.

Just remember... on average, over time, a W113 that's driven 3k miles/year will have 1/2 the probability of an accident requiring significant costs of one driven 6k miles/year.  Wear & tear will be twice as much for the 6k miles/year driven daily driver than the 3k miles/year driver.  Think about the 1.5k miles/year driver?... or the 10k miles/year driver?  If nothing else, the cars less driven will tend to require lower rates of parts replacements and rebuilds.... all other things equal.

Think about my estimated or guesstimated number of 250SL's still in use at somewhere around 350 of them.... and half of those being the ones built before all the safety related changes beginning with Chassis # 2980... how many of them will still be in restorable to correct condition in 10 more years?... 90%?  80%?  70%?  For that matter, how many of them are still in correct condition or restorable to correct condition right now?... 50%? 75% 25%?

You get the picture I think... your decision has to be based on what you ultimately want for your W113, and how much of what you want you can actually afford in execution... over the length of time you intend on keeping and driving the car.



Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

JamesL

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2006, 02:27:37 »
Tis an interesting dilemma


While I take on board a lot of what Longtooth says, indeed, agree with it in as much as no-one wants to own a depreciating asset, especially when it's already rare

However, I am afraid I cannot boil my Pagoda ownership down to a financial transaction and "pride"

I don't use mine as my daily driver, far from it. It's pampered and gets cash spent on it. But I'd rather it be comfortable, work, etc etc than be "100% correct". So I have electronic ignition, my CD and iPod set up, halogen bulbs etc.

So I sort of end up with a car that gets use, goes, isn't perfect but draws some admiring glances from the public and Merc people who know what they are looking at. And MOST importantly of all

More smiles per mile

 :D
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

Jonny B

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2006, 05:30:48 »
As a slightly different take on things, there is a very good commentary in the current issue of Hemmings discussing the issue of car restoration/trailer queens. I don't completely agree with his analysis, but it is worth a read through. What it boils down to is a comment that guys that go over the top with a restoration, want the satisfaction of having a top condition car for a set period of time, and then will retire it from competition, to enjoy driving it. Perhaps, for the less items, but I find it hard to believe for a one off Daimler, or Bugatti. Actually I hope so. In any case, the one thing I did agree with is that I am glad these folks have spent the money and time, so we can all appreciate the rolling art that these vehicles represent.

I also do not drive mine all that much, (sunny weekends mostly) and do strive to keep it in concours condition. At least for now that is I how I keep it.

What is great about this all, is that there is no "correct" decision. Use the car as you want to, for the purpose you want, and enjoy the living heck out of it!

Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto
Jonny B
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joelj

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2006, 08:21:20 »
Hi peter,

If restoring a pagoda would prevent me from driving it, then I wouldn't restore it. Or I'd restore it only to the point of wanting to drive it. These cars are meant to be driven and to be seen on the road.

I just had mine restored and I told my restorer that I still wanted a daily driver and to just change the parts /pieces that need changing. I did go for a full strip to metal paint job and required body works to take out the rust. Most of the rubber parts were replaced with new ones. The interior was the original one along with the faded almost 40 year old carpet. I have greater satisfaction in leaving the car as it was. Its nice to tell my friends that my car is almost 40 years old and still as pretty and quiet as before.

Cheers

Joelj



1969 280sl auto
White exterior
Blue interior

ChrisInNashville

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 19:46:53 »
Do you know the best way to make a little money restoring cars?

...Start with a lot of money!

I cringe at the thought of not being able to drive my little German girl!   When I fix something, I will fix it well...but not for perfection...for fun!

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Tennessee, USA

joelj

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Re: Im getting scared
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2006, 08:24:45 »
Hi Christie,

that was a funny one :)

Joel

1969 280sl auto
White exterior
Blue interior