would you buy this car?

[r.bartl]

http://www.parkplaceltd.com/pages/files/vehicle.aspx?id=5642

Hi expert community:

for a friend in germany (he fell in love with pagoda's when I showed him pictures of mine...), I am going to buy a car.
he doesn't want to repair or restore it.
he doesn't want to spend 40 or 50k.
he is looking for any color but red and white.
I am choosen to pick the right one for him.

now I have been searching the last weeks and found this pagoda at a car dealer in seattle.
the salesman I spoke today explained me in addition to the published text on the internet:

- the car was owned from 1995 until recent by an individual, who sold it to the dealer
- they made a compression test and the expected hp is appx. 170
- the engine was rebuilt with new pistons for appx. $7,600
- brand new brakes
- new wood
- new electrics
- re-done the transmission
- brand new softtop - just came on one week ago
- new mechanic with the top
- stainless steel exhaust
- new floorpan
- new carpets

there is a stack of invoices, what state the parts and work.
the original manual and toolkit comes with it.

the salesguy told me, he had never seen such a nice example of a 230SL and he worked for 7 years in a mercedes dealership before.
he would immediately buy it, if it was his money (no question, a car dealer salesguy tells you this)...

next week I will fly to seattle to see the car.

does anybody of you know the reputation of this dealership?

should  I question, why someone would restore a car for lot's of money to then sell it?
was the car on the market, and the guy could't sell it and then went to the dealer?
if it is pretty, drives nice and I cannot see any major things (I am not an expert) should I go ahead and purchase it for 33,995. is this a realistic price?

looking foreward to your expertise.

thank you!
roman


230SL, 1967
ivory with chocolate brown top

[mdsalemi]

Roman,

I have been to this dealer before.  I can not speak to their integrity but they have many kinds of older interesting collector vehicles.

I can put you in touch with at least 3 Pagoda owners in the area that may be able to pay a visit with you.  Call me.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Benjegen]

Hi,
I guess these guys mix up something when talking about who designed the Pagoda. But that´s OK. Furthermore they write:

"This particular jewel was very well restored in 2003. It has the desirable Euro headlights and was repainted its original Dark Red over the original, unmolested, optional black leather interior."

The car does not have the Euro headlights. In fact pictures show the american headlights ! Admitted, the engine and interior look pretty nice, however you can expect that.
 
I would strongly recommend to perform an IN DEPTH rust search when buying a car in this price range. Get off the outer rocker panels, then you see how good the car really is. For that price get in an expert who really knows these cars. These $ 500 should not matter when you are willing to pay that much.

Hope that helped.

Benjegen

[CraigD]

Roman,
Park Place Motors is about 1 mile from my home.  I'd be happy to go look at it for you.  

Give me a call...

Craig
'70 280SL Euro, Manual,  Leather
Silver/Black

 

[66andBlue]

quote:Originally posted by Benjegen
I would strongly recommend to perform an IN DEPTH rust search when buying a car in this price range. Get off the outer rocker panels, then you see how good the car really is.

Roman,
heed this advice! Also tell them that you want the undercarriage thoroughly cleaned and then poke around underneath with a strong screwdriver. I am somewhat suspicious that they didn't post pictures of the underside.
In addition when I bought my 230SL a couple of years ago I told the seller before I arrived that I wanted his permission to drive the car (with hardtop on) through a car wash (top and bottom wash) to check for leaks and related problems. He balked but then consented. [In my case I was happy that the car started up right away but not so happy about the water in the trunk!]
Check for matching numbers and codes; note that the interior is not authentic.
1. original radio has been replaced;
2.I believe that the black interior leather should come with a black steering wheel and shift knob.
3. a 230SL should have a square-weave ("Haargarn boucle") carpet.

Remove the driver seat and check whether the support and steel bands are not broken. It appears to sag on the outside.
IMO for $33K these points should not be an issue.

You friend doesn't like a white or red car. What about "beige"? Motoring Investments has a 250SL for less on sale: http://www.motoringinvestments.com/C30photo2.htm
Good luck!




Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

[Chad]

quote:Originally posted by 66andBlue

Originally posted by Benjegen


You friend doesn't like a white or red car. What about "beige"? Motoring Investments has a 250SL for less on sale: http://www.motoringinvestments.com/C30photo2.htm
Good luck!
Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

(1)I do believe that buyers ahd the option of ordering the ivory steering wheel in a w113 completely independently of the interior color. As an original option. Thus the ivory steering wheel looks fine to me.

(2)Speaking of originality then, do you think that that "original radio" for that beige Motoring Investments car is truly the original for that car? It looks like the later style to me. The knobs, the faceplate, it looks like it belongs on a late 250 or 280 car.

(3)Original cars usually have original drivers in them, especially at this price point.

I don't know, but the word "original" gets thrown around a lot.  

1967 230SL (Manual)

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

I can put you in touch with at least 3 Pagoda owners in the area that may be able to pay a visit with you.  Call me.

Roman,

You absolutely need to call Michael and get in touch with the Seattle area owners.  You could all go at once and pick over this car.  The sales person would be deep trouble with the detailed knowledge of that group!

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[waltklatt]

Roman,
I would take a serious look underneath too, like the others say.  From the rear picture and 3/4 view from drivers side-looks like the fuel pump is hanging down real low.  Shiny silver thing down there where the pump would hang.   No pictures of the trunk innards.  Lift out the rear shelf to see underneath(remove the two knurled knobs first)
The radio is out of the question a new removable faceplate one.  The rearview mirror inside is a later model(all black), the carpet is a multi loop type.  A shiny bright green wire in the engine compartment, a unsightly yellow masking tape remnant under the dash from the passenger side.
Other than that, the car looks like a fresh restoration done well.  Love those shiny new red taillights.
Walter Klatt
1967 220SL-diesel-nearly done with wetsanding and polishing.
1963 230SL-gas-primer

[Kenneth Gear]

There is a tech named "Smokey" at Phil Smart Mercedes in Seattle that knows these cars inside and out. I spoke to him when I bought my car in Seattle and is very knowledgable, it may be worth a few bucks to have him give it a once over.

Ken G
1971 280 SL
Silver/red

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by waltklatt

an unsightly yellow masking tape remnant under the dash from the passenger side.

Walter,

I saw the odd under-dash thing, too.  I think it's just an incorrect under-dash panel, the yellow is the foam insulation.  You are seeing the thickness of it from the side.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[CraigD]

I stopped by briefly to look at the car today.  Not too much detail yet, but a few observations...
- the option codes listed are 493 and 508.  493 is Heavy Duty Heat Exchanger/enlarged heater box for passenger cabin.  That may be the reason for the unusual appearance under the dash. 508 is dual outside mirrors.  
- paint code 542G / 542G, so it's originally dark red.
- the headlight grooves are not present
- very clean underneath and in the engine compartment. No cover on the rear fuel pump.
- clean interior, except for the wrong radio.  MPH speedo.
- paint is good but not show.  A few scratches, rubs, etc. No bubbles.
- trunk floor is good - it should be, having been replaced.
- chrome is above average... some scratches and cracks
- headlights aren't the regular US type, but they're not like my '70  Euro headlights, either.  I searched around and found a similar headlight on a '64 230SL @ Motoring Investments.

I plan to go back... questions or other thing to look for?

Craig

[Lilly]

I know of a '66 230 SL (repainted) dark green automatic with Euro headlights, alloy wheels (different than the dual hub-capped ones on this maroon/burgundy red one), and 56,XXX kilometers showing on the 5-digit odometer.  Owner's asking $30k and has only owned it five years.  I've seen the car in person - it's in the US

[r.bartl]

Hi Pagoda community,

After my visit today at the car dealer (Park Place Ltd. in Seattle) I want to share my experience:

Truthfulness of the internet add: some things changed today according to their internet description.
-   170hp: the car was stated due to the previous owners documentation, what was 170hp, but the engine is a regular 230SL engine with 150hp. Maybe it was a typo.
-   Original European headlights. The salesman told me, that this was probably a typo too.
-   2nd top (Hardtop). We could not locate the hardtop. They are still looking, if one came with the car.
-   Excellent condition: I would rate it average or above. How do you determine the overall correct condition
-   Beside this, the experience with the salesguy was not very pleasant. After letting me wait for more than 30 min. at the curbs of the Seattle Airport, there was no “sorry for the inconvenience”.
-   I think he was somewhat disappointed, that I had Ernie Schmidt (Autowerkstadt 2 in Seattle) getting the car thoroughly  inspected.
-   The salesguy also told me, that it is unusual to give any warranty on such a car. I will buy “AS IS”

Following issues what I got from the inspection, done by Ernie:
-   compression test result: 150 – 145 – 160 – 155 – 120 – 155 (cylinder 5 is 40hp off)
-   leakage test result:         17% - 22% - 15 % - 16% - 60% - 16% (cylinder 5 leaks more than 50%)
-   Rear braker dragging tight
-   Fuel pump cover missing
-   Clutch operation very stiff
-   Belt noise
-   Mounting on alternator off and alternator tilted somehow
-   Code 508 (2 mirrors), even no right side mirror
-   3 of the original levers for heat and air operate free, one sticks
-   “home position” of the ignition key missing only turns to 1 times
-   Cosmetics: average paint job (drip beside the front light, scratch on left rear vendor), gap and somewhat average repair of the front panel, no perfect fit and gap from the trunk lid

More facts:
-   the car has a documentation with lot’s of invoicdes dated from 1995 until 2001.
-   Included a engine restoration for 5k where the pistons got replaced
-   After this major project the car was driven only 650 miles, what means it has been driven appx. 100 miles in average the last 6 years.
-   New Michelin tires put on for $800
-   Brand new soft top (just installed 4 weeks ago)
-   New trunk pan, new trunk mat
-   Stainless steel exhaust
-   New red taillights
-   Beautiful clean from underneath
-   Nice original  toolkit and manual

From the first sight the car looks very nice and clean. After looking closer you will see these little cosmetic things.

Now, I am not concerned about the cosmetics, it would be a nice car in good condition, no show car, no original car. But this is o.k. for a daily driver.

More I would like to know, if the price of 33,900 is fair, or what I should offer for maximum pay.

Now, always depending, if we are in a buyers or a sellers market.
From searching the last 2 month, I couldn’t find lot’s of 30k+ cars in excellent condition and I am o.k. with searching another 2 or 3 month.
If we are in a sellers market for this type of condition and there are only cars available in the 20k+ range (what would need restauration) or the 40k+ cars,  I might have to pay 30k for this one.

Bottom line is, that I like the color, it drives nice, the minor technical things are somewhat acceptable for my use, but I don’t want to overpay this car by 5 or 10k.
That cylinder 5 could be as simple as a valve adjustment but this is not proven.
What if I have to buy a hardtop (how much to invest).

Let me know your idea.

Roman

P.S. thank’s to Ernie Schmidt for his excellent and fair expertise
Also thank’s to Craig DeVine to take the time for meeting me there and giving me lot’s of tipps, where to look at and what to ask.


230SL, 1967
ivory with chocolate brown top

[Douglas]

Aside from the #5 cylinder, it sounds like a fine example. In my opinion, the other issues you mentioned seem minor. Did you go over the car with a magnet to check for filler?

Price is a subjective issue, but I've got to think the dealership would be willing to work with you, assuming you're in the same neighborhood.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by r.bartl

Following issues what I got from the inspection, done by Ernie:
-   compression test result: 150 – 145 – 160 – 155 – 120 – 155 (cylinder 5 is 40hp off)
-   leakage test result:         17% - 22% - 15 % - 16% - 60% - 16% (cylinder 5 leaks more than 50%)

More facts:
-   Included a engine restoration for 5k where the pistons got replaced
-   After this major project the car was driven only 650 miles, what means it has been driven appx. 100 miles in average the last 6 years.

Roman,

The $5,000 engine rebuild that, after 650 miles, shows poor compression and leaky cylinder #5 would be my biggest issue with the car.  Perhaps the documentation is wrong?  I would assume that engine should be tight as a drum with 160 - 180 psi compression across the cylinders, with very little leak down.  Would you want to rebuild again for another $5,000?

Secondary concerns:
- Repaint done and second mirror removed.  Why?  Careless?  What else was not done right - chrome? rubber seals?
- Alternator tilted.  What's this about?  Wrong alternator?  Wrong bolts used to install it?  This is another example of lack of detail in repair.
- Stuck heater lever.  I would say this is normal if the documented milage is correct.  When left sitting the will stick.  It could take a some time or money (or both) to repair.
- Ignition key not turning to all postitions.  I think these ignition key barrells (assemblies?) can be expensive and/or difficult to replace.
- 650 miles driven in 6 years.  We all know that fuel systems and brake systems go bad when they just sit year after year.  These cars need to be used.

I would think this dealer would have to come down on the price.  I would be hesitant to buy because of the engine condition and because of evidence that not all repairs & maintenance were performed with great care and attention to detail.  You have to ask what else may have been done in a sloppy manner.

Was the "garden hose" type seal in the oil filter housing?

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420