Author Topic: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!  (Read 712 times)

mdsalemi

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Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« on: October 15, 2025, 14:21:41 »
OK I could NOT let this one go.

Let's get a few things straight here and separate fact from fiction and fact from opinion.  Here are a few facts.

1. We have an OLDER designed engine. Doesn't matter if you have the M127, M129, or M130. These are fuel-injected variants of the earlier Mercedes-Benz M180 which had a carbureted fuel system. The M180 engine first appeared in 1951 as a 2.2L. Got it? OLD DESIGN.

2. These engines, like others of the era, feature "flat tappets" and not "roller cams" found on later engines from many if not most manufacturers. Do your own research and form your own opinions but the key take-away here is flat tappets feature SLIDING surfaces. Sliding surfaces require more lubrication.

3. Because oil formulations TODAY are different than they were in 1963-1971, data you would find about recommended oils in factory literature really is obsolete. Those oils do not exist any longer. We can only work with what is available today.

Now here comes the well known information that has been around for 20+ years:

1. Late 1980s: The US EPA and auto manufacturers began to reduce the levels of phosphorus (and thus ZDDP) in motor oil to protect the new generation of catalytic converters that were being installed on all new vehicles. API SG Standard (1988): ZDDP levels began to be restricted.

2. Early 2000s: The Crisis Point: This is when the engine rebuilding community began to see widespread problems. API SL Standard (2001) and API SM Standard (2004): These standards severely restricted ZDDP levels (to a maximum of 800 parts per million, or ppm) to ensure long catalytic converter life.

3. The Result: The very low ZDDP in these modern oils, when used in freshly rebuilt engines with flat-tappet (or pushrod) camshafts, led to catastrophic failures—specifically, the rapid wear and destruction of the camshafts and lifters during the critical break-in period.

I didn't make the above up and this isn't my opinion. These are well known and documented facts.  So, what was the response? Simple. Engine builders and classic car enthusiasts quickly determined that the lack of ZDDP (a crucial anti-wear additive for metal-to-metal contact areas like flat-tappet cams) was the cause of the failures. They began to formally recommend and require the use of oil additives (like ZDDP supplements) or special high-zinc racing oils for older engines, particularly those with flat-tappet designs (generally pre-1980s or 1990s).

Summarized, the need for ZDDP became an urgent issue for engine builders after the year 2001, when modern oil standards dropped the ZDDP content below the level required for their traditional, high-friction, flat-tappet designs.

Now you be the judge, and do your own research with the technical papers on the subject. There are plenty if you dig deep. Some are available in the SAE database, by Google or other searches, or from the AERA (Engine rebuilders association).

Now let's talk about the moniker "special oil". Nearly every manufacturer of motor oil has an oil designed for older engines like ours. Some of the better known brands that have formulations with higher ZDDP levels (not for catalytic converter cars but older cars like ours) are Valvoline, Amsoil, PennGrade, Driven Oil, Lucas, Royal Purple, Shell Rotella, Mobil Delvac, Mobil 1.

Now let's talk about VISCOSITY. We all know multi-grade oils come with two numbers: the cold or W viscosity followed by the hot or higher number.

Plenty on the subject in any number of places. A 10W-40 typically is rated for the following: A 10W oil is generally suitable for cold-start ambient temperatures down to about −20 C to −25 C (around −4 F to −13 F). I don't know about you but I surely don't use my Pagoda in such freezing temperatures. The 40 weight means it maintains viscosity at 100C or 212F. This is surely a fine choice in viscosity.

But what about a 15W-50? (Note: this is the only choice in street oils in the Mobil 1 line with higher levels of ZDDP). The SAE requires a 15W oil to meet a specific maximum viscosity limit for cold-cranking performance at −20 C (−4 F). This ensures the oil is thin enough to allow the engine to turn over and start in cold weather. Personally I still don't use my Pagoda when it's much below freezing so there's nothing wrong with the 15W as opposed to the 10W, except if you live in and run your car regularly in arctic conditions. What about that 50 rating? Well, that again determines the oil's viscosity at standard operating temperature which is 100 C (212 F). While I'm sure other oils make similar claim, for the oil I use, Mobil 1 15W-50, they say the oil is formulated to withstand the extreme heat of high-RPM engine operation and is designed to protect critical engine parts in temperatures up to 260 C (500 F)

Now a couple of things I can tell you with certainty: our cars run hot. Our engines turn at high RPM. The redline is 6500 RPM, and typical highway cruise in a 4-speed or automatic could very well be either side of 4,000 RPM. That's nearly TWICE what a modern car may operate at.

Another thing to consider about viscosities is the overall condition of your engine. The specifications for oil, even if outdated, were presuming a new car, not one 60 years old with 150,000 miles on it. An engine with a lot of wear might very well benefit from a higher viscosity oil.

So, some facts here. Some places to research. Feel free to formulate your own opinions.

What's MY opinion? When I saw a technical presentation on Mobil 1 in the early 2000s, it sounded good to me, so that's what I chose. Easy to find, and priced like most other synthetics. I've chased their higher ZDDP formulations, and today their oil with the higher ZDDP content happens to be 15W-50. If they had it in 10W-40, I might have chosen that--but they don't. Since I've used Mobil 1 for more than 20 years now, I'm just sticking with it. I guess one would have to have a reason to change--such as reformulation, unavailable, or a much higher price. But, it's been stable in all respects for some time now.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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MartinK

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2025, 15:04:26 »
That's partially correct. I strongly recommend adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity. For example, I use a standard Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 with a ZDDP content of 1000 ppm and have had no problems with camshaft and rocker arm wear. I perform used oil analyses on an occasional basis, and they show no excessive wear.

I advise against using a higher viscosity, such as 20W-50, because the camshaft is only lubricated by gravity via the oil tube with its very thin openings (1.2mm, 0.047 inch), not by pressurized oil. Likewise, the camshaft at bearing number 1 only has a groove approximately 1 mm (0.04 inch) wide through which all the oil must be forced to supply the camshaft. If the oil has a viscosity that's too high, lubrication is unsafe.

Watch the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3uXSI9wQv8

Oil isn't a matter of feeling, it's evidence-based science.

I investigated the myth of the "hot engine" and installed an oil thermometer. My engine is a performance-enhanced M127 with a measured power of 160 hp. I installed the optional oil-water heat exchanger that was standard on the M129. At an air temperature of 30°C (86°F) and a constant 4000 rpm on the highway, my oil temperature is around 90° Celsius (194°F), which is no challenge for a current oil. One of my colleagues has a 280SL with an oil thermometer and gets the same values.

For all the reasons mentioned, in my opinion, there is no single plausible reason to use a special oil with an excessive ZDDP content or a very high viscosity. ZDDP also produces a lot of ash during combustion, which can lead to coking of valves.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2025, 15:56:37 by MartinK »

dirkbalter

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2025, 17:46:10 »
I am literally just changing oil when I saw it. For what its worth, see attached.
Dirk
66 230 SL
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MartinK

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2025, 17:54:49 »
Does it have an official MB operating fluids recommendation 229.1, 229.3 or 229.5 and the viscosity grade as the technical manual recommends?

I think: no.


dirkbalter

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2025, 18:42:31 »
Does it have an official MB operating fluids recommendation 229.1, 229.3 or 229.5 and the viscosity grade as the technical manual recommends?

I think: no.

Probably not, but I am relying on the extensive experience Metric has in rebuilding and maintaining these motors. More important, he is the one that gives me the warranty on the rebuild.
(What you said in below post makes perfect sense, but I have red so many opinions and "facts" on oils that I am just sticking to his recommendation)



 
Dirk
66 230 SL
70 280 SEL
53 CHEVY 3100
18 C300 COUPE
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mdsalemi

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2025, 21:24:02 »
A ZDDP content of 1000 such as what Martin IS using is a high level!

Modern oils for modern engines such as a 0W-20 for a modern Mercedes is generally less than 800.

The only relevant MB operating fluid specification that is of ANY concern for us, possibly, is 229.1. The other ones mentioned are for more modern cars after the year 2000. Simply of no concern or significance for a Pagoda.

There’s ONLY one Mobil 1 oil with the 229.1 approval. It is their FS X2. 5W-50. Since it is the only one of Mobil 1’s offerings with this approval and it is 5W-50, I would consider it a special oil. Anyone is free to make their own judgment.

I too, I have a Metric Motors rebuild although mine is 25 years old and the whole zinc issue was not yet figured out at that time. Of course the oils were older then too. Note that the oil that Metric recommends is a 5W-50. If I wasn’t using Mobil already, I’d probably switched to that Castrol! So the oil that one of the most highly respected engine rebuilders for Mercedes-Benz engine recommends is indeed a special oil…
« Last Edit: October 15, 2025, 21:34:31 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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wwheeler

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2025, 21:55:04 »
Is Castrol Edge a synthetic? Since my engine has been using conventional for 20,000 miles, not wanting to switch. I was told to use Castrol GTX "Classic" in that case. I think Metric also recommends that as well.
Wallace
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WRe

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2025, 05:48:20 »
229.1H

MartinK

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2025, 06:05:28 »
229.1 but viscosiity grade not as reommended in technical manual. You always need both: correct grade and correct recommendation as written in operating fluids. If metric insist on that stuff, to provide a guarantee on their work. Than it is like it is. Most engine shops fill the engine with SAE50 because customers argue that on a redone engine the oil pressure has to be at 3 bar at idle. The shop fills 50 instead of 30 or 40, oil pressure is high and customer is happy. Win win situation.

And yes 5W-50 is a synthetic lubricant and this is no problem for the Pagoda engine family.

You actually do not need a 50 grade to prevent lubrication loss due to high oil temperatures.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2025, 07:38:44 by MartinK »

Pawel66

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2025, 10:51:30 »
MartinK, could you point where in the Technical Manual we can find 10W30 recommended? All I see is 20W50, I am missing something apparently. I am not sure where the cut out you are showing comes from.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2025, 11:00:33 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

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mdsalemi

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2025, 11:02:35 »
Is Castrol Edge a synthetic? Since my engine has been using conventional for 20,000 miles, not wanting to switch. I was told to use Castrol GTX "Classic" in that case. I think Metric also recommends that as well.

Yes Wallace the FIRST oil recommendation by Metric is full synthetic. They also have secondary recommendations that are not. Dirk Balter posted the PDF of their statement on the subject.

A bit off topic here, but on a modern Mercedes, at least for a while and maybe some time ago, if you opened the hood (bonnet) there was a sticker/label suggesting a Mobil 1 oil. I queried my clients at German oil company Liqui Moly why there’s no such sticker for them. “We cannot afford to pay their fee!” Was the reply!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
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MartinK

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2025, 11:03:29 »
The cut is from the owners manual 230SL, 250SL. The late 280SL have a different manual, where 20W-50 is mentioned as an option but only for summer use in warm countries.

Pawel66

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2025, 11:04:58 »
Well, in your cut out 10W30 is mentioned for hot zones. Would be good to see the full description of the asterix there... it starts saying 10W as of October.
Pawel

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W121 190SL
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BobH

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2025, 11:47:02 »
The cut is from the owners manual 230SL, 250SL. The late 280SL have a different manual, where 20W-50 is mentioned as an option but only for summer use in warm countries.

As Martin states, the screen shot is from the owners manual, my 230Sl makes no mention of 20W-50 at all

The service manual in our technical manual quotes 20W-50, so i'm not sure where that information come from?
February 1965 230SL Automatic
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MartinK

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2025, 11:50:20 »
This is the complete cut from the owners manual. No hidden information. That's what I say. SAE30, if you fear lubrication loss, you can swap to 40 (as me with 0W-40, but it's close to a 30). But 50 is imho absolutely not necessary. The preferred metric lubricant is synthetic and a 5W, what is much better than 20W because a too high grade stresses the oil pump gears and the bearings. If you read the cut of the owners manual you can see that 5W ist already OK. In most cases I have problems to get the oil temp above 80 deg. C. When driving on highway with constant 4000 and above up to 5000 it rises to 90 or 95 (with the optional oil water heat exchanger which was standard at the 250SL). You can do with your car whatever you want but I think it is important to separate myths from facts.

Pawel66

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2025, 13:40:16 »
Thank you, I did not mean "hidden", just thought part of it was cut perhaps while scanning. As it is about Central Europe, seemed important. Anyway it applies to W parameter, which is less relevant as our cars are driven in temperatures in the range of 20-35 degC. I have 280SL, driving summer, so sticking to 50. I use 10W30 for 190SL as this is what the manual is saying there.

I also believe, although, again, I am not an expert, that none of the recently shown examples of destroyed rockers, camshafts or crankshaft journals or bearings is the result of using oil grade of 30 instead of 50 or vice-versa.

I also read enough here and elsewhere to seek for the oil containing certain amount of ZDDP. I also believe that camshaft run-in procedure makes sense and I applied it successfully.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Lori

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2025, 14:18:13 »
Here is what is in the US owners manual
Lori
1968 280SL (US)

MartinK

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2025, 15:21:51 »
I have 280SL, driving summer, so sticking to 50. I use 10W30 for 190SL as this is what the manual is saying there.

I also believe, although, again, I am not an expert, that none of the recently shown examples of destroyed rockers, camshafts or crankshaft journals or bearings is the result of using oil grade of 30 instead of 50 or vice-versa.

Hei,

Click on the image and the browser shows you the complete image.

Funny thing, for 190SL you use 10W-30 because it is recommended. On 280SL not.

I agree that this level of destruction of the rocker arms is maybe a reason of weak material.

But the whole lubrication of camshaft and valvetrain is a weak point because of no pressurized oil support. The same as on 190SL engine.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2025, 15:44:28 »
Hei,

Click on the image and the browser shows you the complete image.

Funny thing, for 190SL you use 10W-30 because it is recommended. On 280SL not.

I agree that this level of destruction of the rocker arms is maybe a reason of weak material.

But the whole lubrication of camshaft and valvetrain is a weak point because of no pressurized oil support. The same as on 190SL engine.

Not really. There are many parts in our engines that receive barrier lubrication yet don't just fall apart. Those rockers were defective - not an oil related problem.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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mdsalemi

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2025, 15:58:17 »
Until very recently on this forum, I had never heard of any kind of engine failure due to "unpressurized oil support". Underneath the valve cover, perhaps statically, one might be able to make some kind of argument about that, with oil dripping through small tubes, etc. But I would suggest that under operation, oil is being tossed about violently. You do not have to believe me, but one could always operate their engine with the valve cover off and see what happens. Would anyone like to guess? Please don't; maybe instead, just search for "engine operating with clear valve cover" on YouTube and you'll see how oil is tossed all over.

Ash content was also mentioned. "Your engine has failed because of the ash content of your oil" said no-one ever. Seriously, look it up. It's critical in modern diesel engines (not us!); also in natural gas engines (again, not us!). I think that any of the well known motor oils in the proper grade designed for specific engine types have this figured out. I do not worry about ash content in my Mobil 1.

Our owner's manual or similar from 1963-1971 presumes oil from that time. Again, oil formulations have changed since then. Absolutely nothing wrong with relying on a viscosity grade of 10W-40. Many of us don't use it because most of the major manufacturers don't offer a motor oil for older engines (again that flat tappet and ZDDP thing). Way back when, Castrol GTX was the "cool" motor oil to use, and that wasn't introduced until 1968, and the 20W-50 sometime after that. So these "thicker" motor oils were not common in the early 1960s. If Mobil 1 or anyone else offered a full synthetic with ZDDP around 1000 or greater, in a 10W-40, I might give it a go. I don't think there is anything wrong with using a modern 10W-40, perhaps with less ZDDP than required, and augmenting it with an oil additive. That was one of the suggestions that came out of the discovery of the zinc issue from the engine rebuilders association...and there are plenty of zinc additives available. Lucas Oil, Bardahl, Rislone all make them.

Speaking of "full synthetic", there was anecdotal evidence here on this forum years ago of people switching from conventional base stock oils to full synthetic and then suffering engine oil leaks. If anecdotal, it's true; the reason why is what is unknown; correlation isn't always causation. I think the facts behind that are a modern synthetic might reveal an existing leak but not really cause one; perhaps because of old gaskets or seals. I don't think this is the case with full engine rebuilds that start life with a full synthetic. When I last changed my oil, I thought it a good idea to tighten up the oil pan bolts. Guess what? ALL of them easily withstood a turn or two of tightening. That's a good place to start for leaks!

Let's not forget AGE. Yes, the viscosity ranges and requirements have changed over the years. A 10W-40 might have been a fine motor oil to use on your Pagoda in 1970. Most modern cars have had their oil requirement change to thinner and thinner oil. The last normal gas powered car I had was a 2019 Ford Flex. That required 5W-20. My current car--a Maverick hybrid with an Atkinson cycle gas engine is 0W-20. Oils are getting thinner because engines are getting "tighter", and designs improved to operate on thinner oils to allow better fuel economy.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2025 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid
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inci

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2025, 21:07:10 »
I personally prefer Liqui Moly Classic 20W‑50 HD, a mineral-based oil specifically formulated for German classics.
Good corrosion protection and carries API SC/SD/SE/CC approvals.  Estimated ZDDP content is around 800 ppm, suitable for original-condition engines with regular use.

Driven GP‑1 20W‑50 is a semi-synthetic with stronger ZDDP protection (~1,200–1,400 ppm) and dedicated storage inhibitors, is a choice when the car will sit for long periods or when higher anti-wear protection is desired.

Mobil 1 15W‑50 is a full synthetic with an estimated ZDDP content of 1,200 ppm. Offers modern synthetic performance, excellent thermal stability, and good compatibility with older engines — best for rebuilt engines or regular driving.

ZDDP Levels:
600–800 ppm – Insufficient for flat-tappet protection
1,000–1,400 ppm – Ideal: matches vintage spec; protective without risk
1,600–2,000 ppm – High: may be okay, but risk of deposits or corrosion increases
2,000 ppm – Too much: only for racing; high risk of ash, fouling, and yellow-metal corrosion
John Inci
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mdsalemi

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2025, 22:11:52 »
GREAT INFO, John—thanks!
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2025 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid
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Paul99

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #22 on: Today at 12:39:20 »
I tend to use VR1 20/50 in my classics as it has the right amount of ZDDP.  But don't forget that oil with high zddp  used in any car with a catalectic converter will damage the convertor.

MartinK

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #23 on: Today at 13:17:00 »
It's useless to explain but lubricant is more than ZDDP.

mdsalemi

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Re: Engine Problems + Excessive Wear on Rockers = OIL!
« Reply #24 on: Today at 13:39:58 »
It's useless to explain but lubricant is more than ZDDP.

Martin, it is not useless to explain. I think we all get it.

We have flat tappets and the zinc issue was discovered and solved more than 20 years ago. A higher level of zinc IS required for our engines, higher than a modern motor oil designed for a car with a catalytic converter can deliver. This is why most of the oil manufacturers have at least one product in their offerings designed for older engines.

There is no problem in using an oil with a weight of 50. Indeed, all of the major oil manufacturers, and the most respected engine rebuilder for our engines, have specified a 50 weight oil (15W-50 or similar) or have formulated their oils with that weight and the proper amount of lubricant. There was absolutely nothing wrong with using a 40 weight either provided it is designed for an older engine.

This discussion came about because somebody had an engine failure at 2000 km not having anything to do with oil but by using substandard parts, or a bad engine rebuild or something similar not related to oil.

I learned all about this 20 years ago and nothing has changed since that time.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2025 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid
2025 Ford Mustang Mach E PEV
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

 

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