Author Topic: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl  (Read 26995 times)

enochbell

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turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« on: July 27, 2005, 08:42:49 »
I had so much fun sorting out the brake bleeding problem I thought I would try double-or-nothing...

Has anyone ever repaired the cancel function on the turn signal?  I know they are notorious for going "bad", as mine has, but I really don't want to spend the $450 for a new assembly, and I don't think even a new assembly would fix the problem...  Besides, right now I have more time than money, can't you tell.

I took my assembly apart, cleaned and lubricated it, and it works just fine on the bench.  The lever moves, sets and holds (contacts all good), and the plastic cancel tab is in good shape and does cancel the turn signal when moved/rotated in the direction opposite the turn signal lever position (on the bench).  The brass cancelling plate on the steering shaft is in the proper position.  But upon installation the cancel tab on the assembly does not make enough contact with the plate on the shaft for the plate to serve it's purpose.  Seems like if I could move the tab about 1/8" closer to the plate it would all be good.  Needless to say, this is not adjustable.

Anyone care to take a crack at this?

Thanks, as always,

greg

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

rwmastel

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2005, 14:50:57 »
Greg,

The Search function is great.  The link is in the menu in the top right corner of the screen.

http://index.php?topic=554,stalk

http://index.php?topic=1374,stalk

http://index.php?topic=1862,stalk (Ask Bob if he ever got his fixed.  Lots of other side discussion in this thread.)

http://index.php?topic=3471,stalk

http://index.php?topic=3711,stalk (Advanced discussion about improvement of signal stalk function improvements.)

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
2006 Wrangler Rubicon
1966 230SL

jeffc280sl

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2005, 17:59:09 »
Greg,  Can you post a picture or two.  I had mine completely apart recently and put it back together the wrong way a couple of times.  Maybe if I see a pic I'll remember something worthwhile.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

JimVillers

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2005, 20:03:15 »
Rodd ... (OT)Trying to scan old posts in a bottom up board is a pain.

Greg ... I didn't find what I was looking for.  I think that my thought are similar to yours, to remove about 1/16 inch from the bottom flange of the stalk so that it sits lower and thus would work better.

Has anyone tried this aproach?

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

enochbell

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2005, 04:55:54 »
I should have begun the post with the acknowledgement that I had reviewed prior posts on the subject.  Yes, I reviewed the strings you referenced (thanks, Rodd) and others using key words signal, cancel, turn, stalk.  Interesting reading, but no help.

My original hope, believe it or not, was that I would get into the mechanism and find a particularly vulnerable part that was prone to failure but not otherwise "repairable" that I could fabricate the part and then share with others.  Nothing so easy here.

I will post pics later and follow up.  Jim, it sounds like we are on the same page, except that I would prefer to build up the catch on the steering shaft rather than remove any material from the mount.  I will take a stab at it today.

Thanks all,

greg

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

hands_aus

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2005, 06:40:41 »
Greg,

George Davis did some repairs to his indicator unit ages ago. Something about replacing some worn brass studs that retain the lever in correct position.



Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

George Davis

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2005, 08:34:08 »
My post on fixing the turn signal is here:

http://index.php?topic=1374,signal

The problem I had was that the signals wouldn't stay on, but I suspect no-cancellation could be caused by the same thing.  There are two studs that locate a pair of rocker arms in the mechanism.  When the heads of the studs break off, these arms get somewhat out of position and the mechanism doesn't work like it should.  The studs can be fixed by drilling, tapping and running in a screw to replace the stud head.  I did this repair prior to owning a digi-cam, so no photos, unfortunately.

By the way, if this is the problem with your unit, spend some time looking for the broken stud head(s) and a pair of tiny washers that used to be under the stud heads.  Loose pieces of metal floating around in the mechanism can cause short circuits...

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

enochbell

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2005, 11:01:07 »
George and all:

I found your post to be very clear and illustrative, even without pics.  I fear I have a bit of a different issue.  The rockers are good, they stay on-plane through their arc and the studs (tiny pop rivets?) are intact.  My lever holds position just fine, and the cancel button works as it should when I deflect it with my finger (out of the car, of course), it just doesn't make sufficient contact with the cancel ring on the steering shaft.  If it did make sufficient contact, the ring would trip the button just as my finger does with the assembly out of the car?  Here's a couple of pics:

Download Attachment: control lever, neutral position.jpg
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Download Attachment: control lever, left turn position.jpg
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'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

A Dalton

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2005, 14:59:26 »
Couple of things to check .
 When the stalk is in a turn position , the acuator pin should be all the way out . You pic looks like it is not.  This can be easily determined by pulling on the pin to see if you get more extension.  You can also compare it to when it is retracted and pulled out to it's max by hand. It should be right up against the single spring at extension... If you hold the pin in by hand and then put the lever down/up , the lever will lock, but the pin will not extend til you release your hold on it ... this is what happens when it is mounted.. the lever gets in position, but the pin does not extend until you turn the wheel and the pin gets off the trip ring... if it does not extend when the trip ring is no longer there , then it can not get flipped when the ring comes back by to flip it..so. you want to see this freedom in its in/out working. A little lith here is good.
One of those springs look a little bent up in the pic, but that may just be the pic..try the in/out action by hand..
 If that is all cool, it may be worn on the very end or the cancel ring may be missing the flip because the center shaft is low in the outer column .. I believe that would be an alignment problem corrected via a cinch bolt... That would be visable by just looking in there by eyeball and see if it is fixed in relation to where  the pin would sit when mounted.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2005, 15:15:52 by A Dalton »

ted280sl

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2005, 17:01:20 »
Greg,
  A Dalton touched on an itemto be checked. If the springs do not exert sufficient tension the release will not protrude fully. It is a very simple matter to shorten the springs and see if that has any effect.
Ted 1969 280 SL

enochbell

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2005, 18:16:27 »
Gentlemen, you are spot on.  The actuator pin is not fully extended.  It comes out only about 2/3rds of it's proper travel, the springs won't pull it further on their own.  Don't know if it is weak springs or too much friction from wear or, likely case, both.  I will pull it apart tomorrow and let you know.  

Thanks for the eagle eyes on the pin.

greg

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

A Dalton

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2005, 18:19:54 »
Another simple test for narrowing it down is to turn the steering wheel to the right so you know the ring is up past the actuator.  Now, while the unit is out,put the lever to the up position , making sure the tab is sticking out. Mount the unit with the 2 screws and then straighen the steering back out .. If the thing now Cancels , you know the ring is aligned and not at fault. If it still does not cancel, you know there is improper alignment between the rind and pin. [ or spacing].  Now , turn wheel again to right hand turn  and back with lever up and see if it cancels this time around .. if not , you now know that the pin is not coming all the way back out cuz of sticking or inadequate spring pressure

enochbell

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2005, 18:25:58 »
Thanks for the test procedure, Arthur, I will try that before I tear the thing apart.  I appreciate your help,

greg

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

A Dalton

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2005, 18:31:49 »
My Pleasure...
..glad you found your way over here OK and you can see why I so highly recommended it..


enochbell

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2005, 09:52:38 »
Thanks to all for helping solve this sticky problem.  I have completed George Davis' "Most Excellent Turn Signal Mechanism Repair", with a couple of improvements, and IT ALL WORKS!  The lever is restored to a new, tight feel and everything, including the cancel feature, now works as it should.  I have documented the repair with pics and, with all credit and attribution to George, would be glad to post the repair if anyone else would like to complete this repair.

Thanks again,

greg

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

erickmarciano

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2005, 12:52:19 »
great can I have it?

1971 280sl
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1954 Allstate vespa
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1971 280sl
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enochbell

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2005, 13:06:38 »
If your turn signal lever has lost it's “feel” and/ or it won't hold position or won't cancel properly, the following repair should put it right.  Note that this repair does not address electical problems, just mechanical issues (although it will allow you to clean the contacts that might be the cause of faults in signal flashing).  The repair documents the original...

Most Excellent Turn Signal Mechanism Repair

that was created by George Davis, a frequent contributor on this board.  I just took his repair notes and expanded on them a little.  Hope it is of some use,

Greg


1.)Remove steering wheel and horn contacts.
1.Pop the center cap off the wheel; remove the 22mm nut and lock washer.  Pull off wheel after marking carefully for orientation of steering shaft (if you put the wheel back even one spline off it will drive you nuts later).  Prise the outer retaining ring off the steering column (it is just held on by friction from a few ears that both hold the ring on the column as well as space it properly from the shoulder of the column).  Remove the three set screws for the center horn contact, noting their approximate depth so that when you put it all back together you will have an easy time adjusting the horn action.  If you have bad nerves or nearby neighbors you may want to disconnect the battery for both removal and install.
2.Disattach the two horn wires from the center horn contact.  Brown wire on the bottom, striped on top.
3.If you want to service the shaft bearing now is a good time.  If you don't want to service the bearing, go on to Step 2.).  Otherwise, loosen the two 5mm hex bolts from the bearing carrier.  Don't undo the bolts all the way until after the Step 2.),  which allows you to reach your fingers in to manipulate the clamshell brackets that hold this assembly together.  Assuming you have done Step 2.), remove the bolts, catching the clamshell brackets (pair, upper and lower), square nuts and springs from inside the column.  Drop at least two of these down the column so that they lodge too far down the column to reach with you fingers. Consider yourself lucky none of the parts are aluminum and can be retrieved with a magnetic pickup wand.  Note carefully which bracket is top and which is bottom.  They look identical but they are not. Remove the outer and inner circlips holding the race and bearing to the shaft.  Use suitable puller to remove bearing carrier and bearing.  (You can remove it without a puller, but don't  be hasty or dumb with a screwdriver).  Service the bearing and replace in reverse order, except for the following:  Do not reinstall the bearing in the carrier until after you have mounted the carrier and the clamshell bracket back on the shaft.  You will otherwise never be able to get the clamshell back on properly.  To remount the clamshell, put the assembly back together before installing on the shaft, with the square nuts, springs, clamshell brackets, carrier and hex bolts all fit as slack as possible.  Reassemble by using the play in the clamshell halves to make scrunch them the smallest diameter possible, allowing you to slide the entire assembly in from the front of the column and around the shaft.  Once you have the clamshell brackets in position behind the retaining plates in the column, line the whole thing up accurately (if it is not lined up properly the cancel function of your turn signal will be confused) and tighten down the bolts.
2.)Remove the boot from the lever assembly; then remove the two screws that hold the assembly to the column.  Disattach the pin connector from under dash, above clutch pedal.  There are two pin connectors there: disattach the one closest to the front of the car.  (On my car the other pin connector, which I assume connects other dash functions, is exactly the same as the pin connector for the stalk function.  You could literally swap them, resulting in some very interesting electical connections. Imagine a modern car with two connectors that were interchangeable and marvel at the fact that this was not an issue, liability wise or other, in the 60's.).  With the connector disattached, give yourself some slack in the harness and carefully pull the lever assembly out of the column; you can get about 8 inches to work with.
3.)Remove the 4 slotted screws from the back of the assembly, don't allow it to pop open on you: carefully allow the back to open revealing the copper contact and pressure spring.  Note the orientation of the contact: you can reassemble it two ways and the assembly doesn't care which...but you will.  The flat side of the contact should match the flat side of the plastic block into which it fits.  You can stop now to clean the contacts, don't remove too much metal from the nubs or you will have to figure out a repair for that and write one of these damn repair notes yourself.  Remove the plastic block, careful you don't drop the guide pins that go through the piece.  Now that this is apart you can see why you needed to remove the horn contacts, and now you are ready to remove the assembly to your work bench.  
4.)Have children and easily offended purist mechanics leave the garage, this next step gets ugly.  This next step may lend itself to a more elegant repair method, but I could not figure a better way.  So if you are not a member of the either of the aformentioned groups, proceed to step 5.)
5.)The lever arm must come out (the arm has soldered wires attached to it that are not otherwise removable) so that you can get the assembly to your bench for the actual repair.  To get the arm out, you must remove the two screwpins that act as pivots in the lever box  for the lever arm.  The only way I could accomplish this was to unscrew these screwpins with...needle nose pliers.  Carefully unscrew these screwpins, watch that when you get them out that the lever doesn't pop out and eject the spring and/or ball bearing trapped at it's end.  It is a surprisingly strong spring that controls the action of the lever for high-beam flashing. Note for reassembly:  Partially refit the screwpins and washers so the the pins are flush with the inner margin of the lever box.  Put a piece of wood, like a short 2x4, on your lap.  Hold the lever in one hand and force it into the lever box / partial assembly which, in turn, is supported by the wood across your lap.  Press the lever straight into the lever box and completely compress the spring against the ball bearing and  against the pivot point in the lever box. You may want to use a towel or heavy leather glove on the hand you use to hold/push down on the lever.  It would be easy to jig this assembly together on the bench, out of the car, but I could not figure out how.  With the spring fully compressed, carefully tease the screwpins into the lever, I used a combination of a jeweler's screwdriver and...needle nose pliers.
6.)With the lever arm off and left behind in the car, remove the assembly to your bench.  Inspect the assembly, you will probably find that one or both of studs that hold the pivot arms (see pic) are loose.   The arms pivot on hollow pins that are mashed (on assembly) on one end and, along with a tiny washer,  keep the arm in place.  If the arm has any wobble in it then you have found your problem. You may even have lost the tiny washers from the top of the mashed pin(s) (in the pic, you will see that I had lost the washer from one of the pins).  If you don't have any issue with these pins then your problem lies elsewhere. The springs that tension both levers and the spring that pushes the cancel tab are easily replaceable, would suggest doing that now just for good measure.  If your problem is electrical, this set of repair instructions won't help.  Call Mr. Sparky.
7.)Have ready: a new #43 drill bit -- this is a soft casting, and you only get one shot at it, a sharp and clean bit is essential.  Use only a  #43 bit, don't substitute a metric or inch equivalent.  #43 refers to a wire size, and any good hardware store will have it); a #4 tap; two prepared  #4 x 40 x 1 inch stainless pan head phillips machine screws.  To prepare the screws, use a suitable grinder to remove approximately 1/2 of the heads: grind them flat (so that instead of a pan head you end up with a thin pancake head) and  so that you have just barely enough purchase for your jeweler's phillips head screwdriver.  It works out that the head will be flat and thin enough just when the slots can still accept a 5/64 inch phillips head screwdriver.  You need to do this to create clearance for the mechanism.
8.)If you don't replace the springs, at least release them now.  It is essential that the levers and pins be precisely perpendicular to the assembly when you drill them out, and you can't assure that condition with them under tension.  
9.)With the levers and pins flat and perpendicular, carefully drill through the center of the pins, all of the way through the assembly.  Yes, you can do this by holding the assembly by hand, against a wooden surface.  Now, from the same direction you drilled, of course, tap the holes with the 4-40 tap.
10.)You will now have a complete mess on your hands, and the assembly needs to be spotless before the next step.  Wash the whole thing in a suitable bath, be careful that if you use a strong solvent that you neutralize before you relube, as the plastic cancel tab will otherwise get brittle and will be subject to wear/breakage.  Now you can see how elegant this assembly is, and then wonder when VDO got out of the business of making these beautiful mechanical assemblies...and why.
11.)Use compressed air to completely dry the entire assembly, paying attention to the springs buried beneath the levers.
12.)Carefully thread the prepared screws into the tapped holes.  You will need to deflect the levers, one at a time, to allow the screw heads to pass by and seat in the assembly.  Careful with torque: you know by now how soft and thin the receiving material is.  Now you can either use a dremmel to cut off the portion of the screws that extend outside the assembly or, as I did, use a very sharp nipper to do the job. Finally, back the screws off a few turns and locktite the receiving holes (from the back!),  then reset them in their final position.
13.)Reattach the springs.
14.)Use appropriate grease and oil to lubricate the mechanism.  You can actuate the mechanism by carefully moving the lever box with a suitable tool, (I did not mention needle nose pliers again, out of respect for any real mechanic who is still reading) and marvel at how it all works.  Now the lever should hold when it should hold and cancel when you deflect the cancel tab in the opposit rotational direction from the lever's deflection.
15.)In my case, I needed to go one step further.  The end of the cancel tab had worn down enough that it would cancel sometimes but not always on RH turns. But I did not realize that until after putting everything back together.  No problem, you can reassemble everything before taking this next step, as the final repair can be done with the assembly in the car (with the assembly intact but pulled out of the column).
16.)Before reassembly, use a flashlight to look into the side of the steering column for the raised cancel plate on the steering shaft.  It should center at exactly 270 degrees when the steering wheel is straight ahead (there is a punch mark on the end of my steering shaft that indicates straight up / straight ahead, don't know if PO did that or if it is factory).  If the cancel plate is off-center, you will not cancel properly.  The only solution I see here is to set the plate at 270 degrees, then set the wheel for straight ahead, then have the tie rods adjusted so the car actually goes straight ahead.  If that's all good, your done.
17.)I love this part, I can now get back for all the times I have read “reassemble in reverse order”.  Reassemble in reverse order.
18.)Now, if you still don't cancel properly, you can take the next step.  You need to add some length to the cancel tab, a few mm's is all you need.  A #25 plastic tie, the kind used for large bundles of cables, happens to fit the head of the cancel tab to a tee.  Cut a piece from the plastic tie of a length to just fit the head (about 3/8 inch). Carefully place one drop of super glue on the head of the cancel tab and, with steady hand and tweezers, set the cut piece of plastic tie on the head.  Let it dry.  Step away from the car...let it dry (2 hours).
19.)Now enjoy your car, teach yourself to keep your hands off the lever like you used to when you needed to hold the turn indicator and/or cancel it by hand.

Please, please feel free to make any changes to this repair note to correct any of the likely mistakes I have made, and put the needle nose pliers away.


 

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'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

George Davis

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2005, 18:13:40 »
A small addition to Greg's entertaining post below:

It is possible to remove the turn signal switch from the car entirely in the 280 SLs and probably the later 250 SLs, too.  When the wiring plug for the t/s is disconnected, the bakelite plug housing can be taken apart by popping the back off, and then all the wires with their terminals can be pulled out.  Keep track of which holes they go in, but it's hard to mix them up because the wires are cut to length.  Once the wires are out of the plug, the wires can be pulled up through the steering column and out, and you can then do all this work on a bench.  "Reassemble in reverse order".

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

mulrik

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2007, 14:55:23 »
Just a small addition to this thread. I made/drilled a thread for a 2mm screw to go into the original "hole". I cut of the screw on the backside and put a little Locktite to secure it. The arm is free to move and there is room for the "slider" above the screwhead. I think this is a little more elegant than other solutions posted here, although I would never have gone this far without this post. The mechanisms works beautifully.
See the pictures.
Ulrik


Download Attachment: Backside.jpg
56.63 KB

Download Attachment: Frontside.jpg
76.21 KB

'67 250 SL Papyrus White 113043-10-000023

enochbell

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2007, 09:45:03 »
Mulrik,

Very nice, simpler is always better,

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

Neil Thompson

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2012, 22:09:26 »
Sorry to re start an old thread but unless anyone advises me differently I find the info posted here relevant, although I have a couple of questions.

I have dismantled my indicator (turn signal) switch to find most of the issues commented upon in the thread, I have noticed the pivot arm rivet has failed and released the retaining washer and therefore the pin that holds the turn position is at a strange angle and so does not perform its task correctly (see pic 1), question 1 is do I have to repair as per greg and Ulrik's post or is there an update I have missed?, Question 2 is related, - the washer from the pivot arm somehow has worked its way up into the mechanism and sat nicely, possibly for years, on the bakelite contact plate (see pic 3) and has been shorting itself out between the switch contacts. I have cleaned the bakelite contact plate up, see pic 4, but am left with some craters in the bakelite which I need to fill and sad down to be strong and smooth enough for the brass contact plate to pass over, araldite is in my mind but any other suggestions are welcome. Oh and finally, for now!, can the indents for the lever to stay in position be filed without dismantling the lever every time?

Thanks

Neil
1964 230 SL RHD DB304 Horizon Blue
1957 190 SL RHD DB180 Silver
1988 R107 300 SL RHD DB199 Blue Black
1978 C123 230C 2dr Auto RHD Silver

Peter van Es

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2012, 15:05:15 »
Does anyone have time to add this discussion and the photographs to the Wiki / Technical Manual?

Peter
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

114015

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2012, 18:01:30 »
Yaap! :)

Will do that tomorrow or so.

Achim
Achim
(Germany)

Neil Thompson

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2012, 18:27:51 »
Thanks gentlemen, no new ideas from anyone so am progressing, slowly, with help from the past posts, I have cleaned out the craters on the switch contact plate and filled them with araldite adhesive which sets to a hard resin, then I have filed the surface to as flat and smooth as possible to enable the brass contact to slide over freely. I have filed the indents on the stalk ready for reassembly but am now waiting for a small tap and screws to arrive prior to the next step of fixing the small arm in place. these small arms have rollers on them, mine are worn and have flat spots, has anyone manufactured new ones successfully? my local engineer has a modelling lathe and is going to have a go for me.

Neil
1964 230 SL RHD DB304 Horizon Blue
1957 190 SL RHD DB180 Silver
1988 R107 300 SL RHD DB199 Blue Black
1978 C123 230C 2dr Auto RHD Silver

rutger kohler

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Re: turn signal cancellation '64 230sl
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2012, 20:42:41 »
Hi, have read the very thorough explanations and accompanying photos on how to repair, have just been told i won't get another warrant of fitness next time because mine doesn't stay on so will work through the above.  Just one question though,  George Davis has added a rider saying his more modern 280SL can have the entire switch unit removed by pulling the wires out of the bakelite plug and then pulling up throught the steering column.  Mine is also a 1969 280SL so do I still have to remove the steering wheel and horn wires too, or can I leave them intact and just remove the entiore switch?

cheers

Rutger K
1969 280 SL Manual gear shift
1972 280SE 3.5 auto