Author Topic: 30mm Sway Bars  (Read 6478 times)

Jack the Knife

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2023, 03:01:28 »
Jack, How much do you anticipate the cost per person will be?

Cheers,
JohnnyC

Hey Johnny, $475 is what I'd anticipate if we don't meet the threshold for $275, which is ten orders. However, they are willing to work with us if we get like 5.
1964 230SL
2015 G550 """Professional"""

Jack the Knife

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2023, 18:14:24 »
Remember to call Addco and place your order! And if you are interested in the bar only at $275, let them know! I will be taking my sway bar off and taking it down to them so they can get some measurements on Monday, so there is plenty of time still.
1964 230SL
2015 G550 """Professional"""

wwheeler

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2023, 18:46:15 »
I can handle the bushings that will fit the factory brackets and end link washers. I can also upgrade the end link bolt to 3/8 from the factory 8mm if desired.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Jack the Knife

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2023, 15:57:06 »
Dropped my sway bar off at Addco yesterday for measurements. What a cool joint. They gave me a tour of their factory, showing me some machines from the 50s or so taken from factories in Detroit that had shut down decades ago that they use for some purposes -- massive huge gears and stamps and such all proudly emblazoned with "Made in Brooklyn" or "Made in Detroit" or wherever. I look forward to their work.

Only one other guy called them to order a bar. For shame.
1964 230SL
2015 G550 """Professional"""

roymil

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2023, 20:43:13 »
I just placed my order.  Looking forward to it.   Time now to order some urethane bushings!  Wally?    Also seems to make a lot of sense to upgrade to the heavier 3/8 end link bolt.  Is it hardened?   

After reading up a bit, it seems we should expect less oversteer, which is good, but also need to lookout for losing the rear end.  Some have suggested stiffer rear springs should go with the sway bar but I'll want to test that theory first, cant wait.
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

rwmastel

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2023, 21:47:42 »
After reading up a bit, it seems we should expect less oversteer, which is good, but also need to lookout for losing the rear end.
I think you mean less understeer.  It might induce oversteer, which could be interpreted as "losing the rear end".

Some have suggested stiffer rear springs should go with the sway bar but I'll want to test that theory first, cant wait.
I would imagine re-engineering a suspension system to have proper balance and behavior is not a simple matter.  I wish all you modifiers and upgraders luck.  Hopefully you find a good sorted solution/combination of different springs, shocks, rear compensating spring, sway bars, sway bar links, and bushings.
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
2006 Wrangler Rubicon
1966 230SL

Jack the Knife

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2023, 22:25:48 »
I just placed my order.  Looking forward to it.   Time now to order some urethane bushings!  Wally?    Also seems to make a lot of sense to upgrade to the heavier 3/8 end link bolt.  Is it hardened?   

After reading up a bit, it seems we should expect less oversteer, which is good, but also need to lookout for losing the rear end.  Some have suggested stiffer rear springs should go with the sway bar but I'll want to test that theory first, cant wait.

I appreciate your order!!

Perhaps a separate thread should be made to discuss this, but I was brainstorming with a friend who raced 356s, and he mentioned 1) Porsche's leaf spring mounted transversely under the axle (which functions similarly to the over-the-axle coil spring Mercedes uses) performs quite well and 2) that Porsche introduced "Z-bars" towards the end of the run of the 356. That technology was passed on to VW and such bars remained on the Beetle until its end. This may be worth investigating.
1964 230SL
2015 G550 """Professional"""

wwheeler

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2023, 22:55:35 »
Just let me know how many kits ae needed for the 30 (28.5mm) bar. I can provide the two frame bushings and eight end link bushings. Also included is the special lube used for these bushings. Don't use mineral grease!

For the end link bushings, I can do either factory 8mm or the upgraded 3/8". I don't supply the steel parts as those easily attainable. For the 3/8", you can get a grade 8 bolt the same length as the factory. You can drill out the factory washers but they may fit as is.

Either PM me or reply to this thread if you want a set. I suspect the price will be around $70 for the set.   
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

wwheeler

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2023, 04:31:54 »
28.5 mm sway bar frame bushing. First one out of the oven.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

roymil

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2023, 14:29:21 »
Excellent!  Thank you !  Yes, please, count me in for a full set, frame & 3/8 end-link bushings.   And thanks for the reminder about the lube.   I didn't remember that when I re-installed my bar last time and there's been more than a little noise and creaking coming from up front.

I think we all understand this thick sway bar is an experiment.  I understand why Mercedes designed the suspension the way they did,  but I'm just not happy with the amount of body roll when I push it, so I'm willing to try something different, especially bolt on mods, and then *carefully* figure out what else is needed to compensate for any negative effects.

nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

wwheeler

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2023, 23:42:59 »
Yes, the thing you have to remember about urethane bushings is that they behave differently than rubber in situ. Urethane does not deflect as much as rubber and why it is used. But that also means that in the case of a few rotating joints, the shaft rotates inside the bushing where as with a rubber bushing, the rubber itself twists. You will frequently find old rubber bushings bonded to the metal shafts. That is because the shafts don't move in the rubber bushing and bond to the rubber.

A good example is the sway frame bushing. The bar doesn't rotate much but enough that it could create noise in the urethane bushing without a lubricant. Yes, a lubricant is always recommend for urethane and that is why. The type I use is exceedingly tacky, thick and wash off resistant. It is a one time application.

The sway bar is a good place to experiment because it is easily removed/installed. Let me know when you guys get the bars and I will get the kit assembled.     
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

roymil

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2023, 18:52:56 »
Well, I finally received the new sway bar!   Not surprised it took longer and I always assume custom work takes twice as long.

It actually measures 1.35inches (28.82mm) , so it's a tad over 1.25, but it does look like some of that is just a very heavy coat of shiny black epoxy paint.

Given the thickness difference it seems to make sense to go with end link hole sizes for 3/8 upgraded hardware. 

Wally,  Did you already make some, or do they need to be ordered?   Let us know the cost.

much appreciated!  -thanks, Mark
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

wwheeler

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2023, 22:24:26 »
Yes, the frame bushings are available for this as is the 3/8" bolt size end link bushings. I have sent one order and another is just about out the door. I will get started on yours asap. Give me a week or two. I will PM you the order details.

Wallace
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

teahead

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2023, 18:15:58 »
How does it fit?

My 22mm sway bar hit the compressor.  I'll have to add shims to the sway bar brackets.
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

roymil

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2023, 20:48:25 »
I haven't had a chance to fit it yet but I can see how it might come closer to the compressor so we may need a spacer.   I think that should be fine as long as it's steel and completely supports the bushing.   
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

roymil

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Re: 30mm Sway Bars
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2023, 02:02:06 »
This past long weekend allowed me time to install the new 28.5mm sway bar and I am a very happy camper!   Thanks to all who helped with advice, info, and parts contacts to make it possible.

I just took it for a spin and hit some corners hard enough to really feel the improvement.   There is much less body roll now and it didn't seem to be rough or harsh at all over a few speed bumps.   Obviously I can't quantify anything with a specific measurement (unless someone knows a method?) but I feel certain that I hit some corners that would have been close to losing it with the original setup and now it sails through with finesse.   I'm not talking crazy or reckless driving here, this is just taking a harder turn at 30mph, the way you would in any newer sports car.   With the original setup, the roll was a bit scary and the rear end started coming around, mucho oversteer.  That is just not fun.     Now...FUN!!! :-)

Maybe you are thinking I shouldn't push a pagoda that hard but I'm realistically just never going to have a new 911 to toss around, so this is it, it has to be fun to drive as well as  beautiful to look at.   Of course, as with all of my mods this is all completely bolt on and reversible to completely original in probably less than an hour not counting clean up.

That said, it did take me all weekend to install and adjust because it wasn't a perfect fit out of the box, although it was fixable with a grinder and drill followed by primer and paint.  The right end of the bar didn't position exactly where it should and, as someone warned, the much thicker bar just touched the bottom of the AC compressor pulley.  Once I measured multiple times I removed some steel bits and bent some other steel bits and it was fine.  Nothing near enough to effect the bar strength though.    I definitely recommend the 3/8 hardened end link hardware because the original just doesn't seem stout enough for this new bar.

All of the custom urethane parts fit perfectly Wally, thank you very much!   ...and not a peep or creak out of any of it using that nice thick grease.

It does seem to sit about 1/2 inch higher in than it did before.   I believe the new bar combines with the stiff urethane and slightly shorter end links to form a more rigid structure that must provide more vertical support.  I don't know if I care and I wont try to do anything about it until everything settles in.   I might be imagining it but I believe the brake dive is a little less too.  Possibly just due to much stronger and stiffer parts up there resisting movement in any axis.  I'm certain the bar to link joint must be a lot more rigid now.

All in all this was a very good project!   Thanks much to Jacktheknife for getting the ball rolling.

Now I get to start the interior work since I've pretty much finished every other major electrical and mechanical item on the list.   

Cheers!  Mark

   
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.