Author Topic: Gear box noise  (Read 1871 times)

Sens

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Gear box noise
« on: July 30, 2022, 13:54:03 »
Hello,

I hear some noise coming out of my gear box area.
I recorded the noise while putting the car in its 2nd gear and by pushing it back and forward. The is coming from the end of the gear box, just near the rubber support.

Time to get the gear box out or .... ?

Thanks a lot & best regards,

Halvor Sens

roymil

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2022, 15:13:29 »
wow, thats not a trivial noise. I'm thinking damaged flex disk or failed u-joint.   If you can put it in neutral and get one rear wheel off the ground (with a safe jack stand and front wheels chocked both ways) then you can get under it and look, feel, and listen while using your foot to spin the rear wheel both ways.   You should be able to isolate anything making that much noise pretty easily once you get some ears close by.  Let us know what you find.
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

Sens

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2022, 20:27:25 »
Thanks for your reply!

I followed your advise and strange enough the noise was somehow different when the car was off the ground.
The flex disk looks OK. I am not sure what you mean by a failed u-joint.

Then I checked the ATF level in the gear box and that was far to low. I could add 400 ml, which I did.
Something to follow in the future!

I will make a test trip tomorrow and report back.

Thanks so far !!!

Halvor

Sens

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2022, 19:03:35 »
I found out what you meant by U-joint. Not so difficult: universal joint!

I made some extra video's showing in fact that there is some play everywhere in the drive train. (in a zip file)
I think there is not one piece broken but it is more a general need for a serious overhaul.
As long as the car runs fine, I consider to do this overhaul in a year, when I will have much more time to do it.

What do you think?

Thanks for your comments!

Halvor, The Netherlands

roymil

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2022, 02:32:19 »
Do you have a feel for how much of the driveshaft rotation is caused directly by rotating the rear wheel?    Or maybe a better way to ask is how far you must move the wheel before you see the drive shaft react?   If you put one hand on the pinion yoke at the rear U-joint and the other hand on the rear wheel and work them back and forth you should be able to feel how tightly coupled they are.   Any difference between rear wheel rotation and drive shaft rotation is due to gear lash in the rear differential and its normal to have some small amount, but not as much as your video.  Unfortunately I cant tell you exactly how much is acceptable but an experienced drivetrain mechanic should be able to assess it and there might be a spec someplace although I couldn't find it.   

You might also be able to assess the 2 u-joints by putting hands or tools on either side of each U-joint and working them back and forth while looking and feeling for any play or odd movement that isn't in the direction of rotation.    U-joints should be extremely tight and have almost no detectable play in them.  If there is play within the u-joint then you are on borrowed time and it could be dangerous at speed, although they do usually vibrate severely just before they completely fail and fly apart.  They can go from loose to the fail point pretty quickly but likely the extreme noise and vibration would make you pull over pretty quickly

If the rear differential, u-joints, and flex disk are seemingly in good shape and most of the play is in the transmission it might or might not be OK to keep driving.   I think the best way to judge is by the amount of noise that you discern is coming from the drive train in various gears, at various speeds, under acceleration, downshifting, or coasting.   Your posts so far describe static testing in the garage but its good to go out on a quiet morning with the windows down and really concentrate on what noises you hear while moving at different speeds.  With experience and some thought while looking at the drivetrain diagram you can logically deduce where a problem might be based on when a noise is made and what stresses are on the drive train at various speeds and in what gears, or coasting etc.   There certainly bearings and gears to wear out inside the transmission but you rarely hear of failure without warning.

In the end, if you hear much of anything from the drivetrain at any speed its best to just take it to a mechanic and let them diagnose it if he knows his way around a pagoda, but even if not, you could take any good mechanic for a ride and let him listen.  Likely they will tell you how urgent the problem might be.   Almost every RWD car out there has similar issues and fail modes in the drivetrain because they all have gears, shafts, and bearings.   Most large cities have a drive train shop that specializes in repairing drive shafts, u-joints, and the like.   If you try any work yourself be aware that driveshafts have to be balanced at speed when replaced or repaired just like your wheels when you put new tires on them.   You need to pay special attention to orientations so you can replace things the way they were.  I marked a reference paint dot on each part of the drivetrain before I rebuilt it all.  It's not that hard of a job and there's some good help on this site.

Lastly, I see in the picture you sent that the upper differential trunk mount has completely failed.   There should be a gap between the plates.  There are pictures on the site.  This can make some really amazing sounds, especially while downshifting.   If its bad then quite possibly your "clunk" bushing is bad too.  It's the bushing the two halves of the rear axel pivot on.   I dont think these issues are related to the noise in your video , but something that needs service...and unless you know other bushings and subframe mounts have been replaced in recent history, you may find yourself learning just how many bits of rubber there really are on these pagodas.  Many of us know where every one of them is.  But thats part of the fun.   Good Luck!

Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

Sens

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2022, 17:48:47 »
Hi Mark,

Thank you so much for your fast and detailed reply.
In fact this Forum is unbelievable: you post a problem or question on it and a few hour later you get a great reaction form someone, somewhere in the world! Amazing...

As you suggested, I will do some driving and listen carefully!
Up to now, during driving I do not hear any strange noises and shifting is OK. Only when I lift the throttle and accelerate again, I can hear some kind of "clunk". I think that this because all the "play" in the drive train goes from one side to the other side, if you see what I mean. Other reason may be the trunk bushing, as you mentioned.

As far as I can see now the play is mainly in the gear box, differential and wheels. The U-joints and flex disks look OK.

If I put the car in 2nd gear, I can rotate the shaft a little, as you can see in the video. This indicates play in the gear box.
If I block the shaft with my hands, I can rotate the rear wheel a little, indicating play in the differential/and axles to the wheels.

Finally I agree completely that I will have to change my trunk mount. This might be the first job, since it will have quite some positive impact and is relatively easy to do.

And then.... after the summer I will start my drive train project, taking good care of reference markings on the different parts!

Thanks again for your advise: I appreciate it a lot!!!

Halvor

Sens

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2022, 20:20:39 »
Hello again!

In the mean time I replaced the trunk mount so that one is new now. Not a big deal!

I think I have quite some play in the differential, but I cannot judge if it is unacceptable.
 I will see a mechanic specialist for Pagode and he might tell me.

But what do you think, looking at the video? One wheel on the floor and the drive shaft blocked.
Thanks a lot!

Halvor

Sens

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2022, 21:42:36 »
The play of the wheel is about 2 Degrees.
That would be the play in the differential, because I blocked the driving shaft.

Is that acceptable?

roymil

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2022, 22:29:43 »
I just measured a bit over 2 degrees when I checked mine the same way you described.   I wouldn't think this is too much, especially when cold.    I think you do actually want a little bit of gear lash to allow for thermal expansion.  When fully warmed up, I expect it will be tighter. Also realize the play you are seeing includes not just one gear set, but both the spider gears and the pinion gear.

I wouldn't expect a well lubricated differential to make much noise under constant load.   I found most of my noise at constant speed and load was coming from the center driveshaft bearing and when replaced, the noise went away.  The clunks during downshift or hard acceleration and turns were all due to degraded rubber axel mounting bushings and those are gone now too.

I just did a search on "backlash" and there are various threads about how to make gear adjustments during an axel rebuild but I decided not to tear into the axel since it is working well and quiet now.

All that said, I'm not a driveline expert, hopefully others on this site know more about what is normal to expect.
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

Sens

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2022, 08:01:51 »
Thanks a lot for your support Mark!
It really helps me.

I measured about 2 DGR while blocking the drive shaft.
I will also measure the play in the same way when NOT fixing the shaft.

That will give me an idea of the TOTAL play in the drive train.
I have no play in the drive shaft so I will measure the play in the rear axle + gear box.

That one is another suspect!

I will report back!

Thanks again.

Halvor

Sens

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Re: Gear box noise
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2022, 21:07:47 »
I measured the rotation of one wheel off the ground with the gear box in the second gear.
The play in the gear box + drive shaft + differential is about 4 Degrees.

The shaft has no play and the diff has a play of 1.8 Degrees.

That means that the gear box has a play of about 2.2 Degrees.
Is that reasonable?

Thanks!