Author Topic: The first Pagoda 230SL? (Read 37781 times)

TA250SL · « **on:** May 21, 2005, 00:59:38 »

Someone on another Benz forum has a friend who owns what is thought to be the very first Pagoda. What do you think?

-- link redacted as bogus --

Tom
1967 250SL
Los Angeles

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2005, 11:17:23 »

I think I'd love to see some detailed pictures of the car itself, especially the apparently unique FI setup! Also the interior, trunk, serial number stamped on the frame rail under the intake manifold, etc. It would be interesting to compare with the pictures of #24 posted recently.

- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)

rwmastel · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2005, 06:41:49 »

I sent the person an e-mail asking to join our forum. We'll see what happens.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420

mbzse · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2005, 13:50:02 »

These are quotes about this matter that I have on file from another M-B discussion forum.
Please note I copy list postings here. Unfortunately I mislaid the name of the first author (Bill Brandt being the second)
/Hans in Stockholm

Quote 1: "I met an interesting fellow from the SF section. He has the FIRST 230SL...actually the prototype...serial # 1! He got it through a M-B Zone Manager who had it when Mercedes flew it over to Laguna Seca years ago for the Monterey Historic Races...anyway, he kept it through Rudi Unlenhaut's intervention from Stuttgart...heady stuff! The Mercedes museum at Sindelfingen has told him to call them when he wants to sell it. The interesting, he was telling me, is since it is a prototype, most of the parts are not standard...most of the parts came from a 220SEb ...he bought the last 2 electric fuel pumps to save for the car!
It was an interesting story, since it seems to be unusual that anyone from the public gets a factory prototype..." /

Quote 2: "There is a Section member in SF that has a very interesting 230SL – actually it was a prototype and never supposed to leave Daimler Benz - but story is DB brought it to Monterey (for Pebble Beach? Historic races are only 25 years old) - anyway rather than take it back to Germany a Zone Rep got it - and ended up selling it to this individual. A lot of things, like the fuel pump, are off other cars (220SEb I think). Lot of parts that the production 230SL doesn't have.
When Bob got this 230SL it looked so radical even people at the dealership were scratching their heads. The build date was 1963".--/Bill Brandt

rwmastel · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2005, 22:16:38 »

This gentleman wrote me back. He said the owner is not on a computer very often, that's why he is making the inquiry for him. Here are two photos he sent me.

Download Attachment:

First W113 -1.JPG
77.88 KB

Download Attachment:

First W113 -2.JPG
78.51 KB

Of course, you notice the black engine bay right off. The MFI pump is not a normal 230SL pump. Was the only other 6-plunger MFI pump up to that point from a 300SL?

I wrote and asked him to look for the VIN on the right front frame rail. Also, I asked if the MFI pump had an ID plate.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2005, 15:01:49 »

The whole thing looks bogus to me. Look at the dip stick - it's at least 65 or later. Not sure what's so different on the fuel injection pump but then the pictures don't show the back of the pump. There appears t be no mechanical linkage going to the pump which is similar to the 300SL. Those pumps run from a vcuum signal on the throttle housing.

Only cars in '63 that had fuel injection were the 220SEb coupes and sedans, 300SE coupes, and maybe 300d. 220 had 2 element pumps while the rest were 6 element. These systems were all very much different from each other.

Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org

A Dalton · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2005, 16:51:20 »

Yeah, It looks like an R-8 with Vac. Controller .. but really need to see back of pump...

mdsalemi · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2005, 17:23:39 »

Gents,

Two and only two things are possible here--first, that there is an element of truth to this "prototype" 113 or "Pagoda #1" or whatever. Second, if it is a ruse. If it IS true, it could be verified with the factory. I'm certain that they would be as interested or more so then the rest of us are (don't count me in on this though), and would certainly be quite cooperative in digging through the archives and providing some kind of verification or means to do so. If I had what I thought to be #1 like this, the first place I'd go is the factory, MBNA, and the classic center. I wouldn't be having my friends make inquiries on the internet. If it isn't true, it could be just a ruse which is quite easy to perpetrate--particularly when there are so many easy ways to generate "old" things today. Number plates, etc. are all easily forged or duplicated or modified as the case may be...

Oh, and #1 prototype to be fixed up and restored as a daily driver, huh?...I'll believe it when I see it.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

Douglas · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2005, 17:36:25 »

I'm not sure #1 is worth such a huge premium based on the first W 111 that I keep seeing over the years. Perhaps some of you have seen this car too. It's a red metallic Coupe that was at the Bridgehampton auction a few years back, then later on ebay, and now on a Greenwich Village dealer's site. As I recall, it sold for just about what any comparable 111 coupe would go for at the time. It didn't look like anything special at the time and certainly wasn't priced that way. Now if we were talking about the first Gullwing.....

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2005, 21:41:48 »

Just look at the recent hoopla over the first E-type Coupe, practically a prototype itself, if you want some idea of what an early serial number production car or a prototype sports car can be worth. Somehow 2dr and 4dr sedans just don't manage to be in the same league.

- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)

Malc · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2005, 01:52:16 »

Couple of things maybe.....
Guy says he doesn't want to sell it, except to a museum, Good luck I say! If a museum was going to buy it I am sure they would almost strip the car to prove what it is....

Prototype cars do "escape" from time to time. The prototype MGR V8 (MGB updated and with a V8 engine) is privately owned and driven on a daily basis. Reported in the MGOC mag last year

finally if it is what it claims to be and it ends up as a "daily Driver" maybe thats better than sitting on some static display......
I am from the restore and use school rather than the restore and show school...[:p]
Malc

rwmastel · « **Reply #11 on:** May 24, 2005, 22:16:43 »

I just conversed a little more this the person trying to help the owner of this car. Correct, the owner is not trying to sell the car, but trying to find out if it is Pagoda #1. Here's what I sent to the gentleman.

quote:
Brandon,

Hello. I just read the thread and agree with Michael as well.

"If it IS true, it could be verified with the factory. I'm certain that they would be as interested or more so then the rest of us are (don't count me in on this though), and would certainly be quite cooperative in digging through the archives and providing some kind of verification or means to do so. If I had what I thought to be #1 like this, the first place I'd go is the factory, MBNA, and the classic center. I wouldn't be having my friends make inquiries on the internet."

Call 1-800-FOR-MERCEDES and ask for the contact information for the Classic Center in Germany. They typically "work" by phone or fax, but perhaps you could talk with them and get an e-mail address to which you could send some identifying pictures.

- The engine number plate (which should also nicely show the number stamping above it).
- The vehicle ID plate on the firewall.
- The VIN number stamping on the frame rail.
- The factory options plate on the left front inner fender (just in front of the brake booster & washer fluid pump).
- The 4 body number stamps, located under the top left corner of the hood, under the left edge of the soft top boot cover, under the center rear edge of the hard top, and finally on the transmission supporting cross member.

High quality (800kb or more) photos of all these identifying numbers and plates would have to be e-mailed to the Classic Center. They would hopefully determine if further inquiry is necessary to determine it's authenticity.

Thanks,
Rodd

Here's another image he sent me, rear of the pump.

Download Attachment:

First W113 -5.JPG
77.39 KB

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #12 on:** May 24, 2005, 22:38:03 »

This is clearly something different. It's definatley run by throttle linkage and the pump is set up similar to a 220SE with the start solenoid on the top. The air filter for the auxillary air is on this long pipe and the housing for the temp guage probe is right off a 220SEb. In fact it has a lot of 220SEb parts, so from that stand point it's pretty early.
No way of telling if it's a prototype. I've never seen a VIN number like that before.

Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org

Ben · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2005, 03:04:23 »

Mmmm all I can add to the experts opinions here is that the engine number suggests it is a 220SE/230SL engine, being a 127 981 type but could it have come from a late 220SE as oppossed to an early 230SL. The engine number being 0001 wouldn't neccesarilly mean much.

Rodd the other link already shows the chassis number plate and it is unusual I'll say that !

I think only the number stamped onto the chassis leg will tell what this car really is !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2005, 04:48:54 »

Rodd,
Could you ask 'the friend' to provide more detailed pictures of the rest of the car unique to early 230SLs?
E.G: Steering wheel, firewall, air vents etc.
I'm sure there are others here who would love to see them...
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

Malc · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2005, 06:00:53 »

In the "Top" picture from the thread that Tom has posted can anybody make out the numbers stamped in the block just above the engine plate?
I think it starts M 127 981 10 10?

Not that I would know if it means anything but somebody might
Malc

A Dalton · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2005, 09:13:04 »

Looks to me like it could very well match the plate serial #..
I see Zeros and 1 on the end..very faint

J. Huber · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2005, 09:55:48 »

I am curious about motor numbers in general. Mine is

127 981 12 000045 -- yet my car is #871. So how did it come to that? Did manuals and automatics have their own run of numbers?

James
63 230SL

George Davis · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2005, 12:18:13 »

James,

yes, the motors for manuals and automatics had their own run of numbers. Likely your car is the 45th automatic built, or thereabouts.

I keep forgetting to dig out Engelen's book to see if he says anything about this possible first Pagoda. I'll try to remember that one of these days.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

J. Huber · « **Reply #19 on:** May 25, 2005, 12:39:57 »

Thanks Mr. Davis!

So somewhere out there is 000001 of the automatic realm. Do we know for sure that the first Pagoda was a manual transmission? I suppose its probably likely.

James
63 230SL

iceberg · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2005, 13:38:48 »

Hey Guys,
Since we are on this topic of the first few cars built, then I have a few questions that I'd like to ask

.
Well since mine is 0164 which is in the early 200 cars, I was also told that this car was either commissioned for the auto show or a special order since the paint was 463H i.e copper poly, which although is in the mercedes catalouge but it is a special order paint. My question is about the the trunk and softtop cabin. I saw in another SL from 1967 how there are water slides to have the water exit from trunk and softtop cabin. In my car the exit points are mere holes with out any real round shape or rubber exit caps. Is this true for the first few cars? It does not look like someone messed with these holes coz they look very original yet very ugly and non Mercedes engineered like..almost as if someone poked holes there in a hurry. Why is this..can someone with an early car confirm please. Photos would be very helpful.
Warm Regards,
Hassan

J. Huber · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2005, 14:41:39 »

Hi Hassan, cannot confirm this was the way they are supposed to be but you described my soft-top drain holes perfectly. (#000871)

James
63 230SL

George Davis · « **Reply #22 on:** May 25, 2005, 16:05:10 »

According to Engelen, chassis number 600 was the first 230 SL built with an automatic transmission.

Didn't see anything about drain holes.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

Malc · « **Reply #23 on:** May 26, 2005, 07:46:29 »

George. I see in your reply to James it seems that the body number does not relate to build number, is that right? IE James's car is
number 871, but probably the 45th automatic. Did the chassis numbers start at number 1?

I think I'll check the engine number tonight......

Malc

George Davis · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2005, 09:26:45 »

Malc,

As far as I can tell from Engelen, the manual and automatic engine numbers ran sequentially, but in two different series, and the engine numbers don't seem to relate to the chassis numbers, at least not in the 230 SLs. For example, the car being discussed here as the possible first 230 SL seems to have engine number 10 000001 (#1 manual transmission series production engine), but it doesn't have the series production chassis number (113 042 etc.). In Engelen's list of changes, the first 230 SL he lists is chassis number 3, so presumably there were chassis numbers 1 and 2, but who knows? Maybe this car with engine number 10 000001 is chassis number 1, but with a non-series chassis number? Or is there a different series chassis number 1, with an engine number that is something other than 10 000001? These are the questions that used to keep me awake at night, until I discovered Bombay Sapphire gin...

At any rate, later on in the series, the engine numbers don't add up and it appears that cars with the same transmission type built sequentially would not necessarily get sequentially numbered engines. The factory made a lot of running changes to the early engines, so probably a lot were used as test engines. For example, changes were made to the engines at two sequential chassis numbers 9094 and 9095, but (apparently) with engine numbers 1763 (auto) and 7773 (manual). Note that 1763 and 7773 add up to 9536, so it looks like there were 440 or 441 extra engines built. Which means James' car might be the 45th automatic car, or it could be some other number and the missing engines were test engines. Or, or, or... is it too early for a G&T?

So I'm not sure (cheers! siiiiip) there's a lot we can infer from engine numbers (sip) except as they relate to what is printed on the data cards. (sip) But it's fun to wonder.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

News: