Author Topic: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars  (Read 7961 times)

thomas wright

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The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« on: June 02, 2021, 22:25:20 »
Hi,
With so much in the news about the future take up of battery powered cars and larger motor manufacturers assigned to producing only electric cars in the next five to ten years and no internal combustion engine vehicles, should mean petrol producers will have to make less fuel , a lot less.
Where do you see our Pagoda loving group if fuel for our cars becomes a prohibitive cost to run them, and with the possible prospect of being unable to sell our very valuable cars.  There are many members like myself who are putting money into the very deep wishing well in the hopes of having a very beautiful mechanical work of art at the end. What are the prospects of being able to enjoy fully the labour of our work.  I personally  look with hope that I will still be able to take my car into Cumbrian Hills in the Lake District National Park, England for the foreseeable future.
This topic is not intended to make anyone concerned as I am sure many have already had the same thoughts as myself but It would be helpful if more informed members could shed some light on our future motoring prospects.

Tom


280SL, 1969, 050 white, Auto, lhd, 2 tops, 3rd side rear seat, all original.

114015

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2021, 23:08:50 »
Tom,

That's a very realistic scenario and honest question ....  :-\

Well, the answer is ...
Don't know... where this all is going towards...  ???
but I would guess our (cars) future is not more as sunny as it has been before.
This can be a very long and academic discussion....
It depends also on the question how "green" future governments will likely be.

If you are very pessimistic it would be best to sell your car ASAP because you can still fetch good money today.
Not so likely in 20 years or so.
There are other opinions out there which claim: "Drive/enjoy the car as long as you can...."

It all depends....

Also a bit concerned ...


Achim
Achim
(Germany)

GM

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2021, 01:07:38 »
This question reminds me of a quote, originally attributed to economics, but I have also attributed to technology. I think it is also appropriate for the question of the future of petroleum automobiles:

“In economics, things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.”
- Rüdiger (Rudi) Dornbush, Economist

Perhaps this is a more immediate question - at least in the U.S. - are stick shifts going extinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JuyDN0qzRY
What say others around the world?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 01:50:04 by GM »
Gary
1971 280SL - Sold
(98 from the end of production)
DB180 Silver Gray Metallic
Black MB Tex

neelyrc

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2021, 03:46:11 »
I have a shorter driving horizon than many of you here.  I don't expect to own an electric vehicle in my lifetime. I currently have six gasoline/diesel powered vehicles and if I were in the buying market today I would not be looking at an electric.  At the rate of advance of automotive technology, the industry will likely be able to furnish all of us with battery powered cars long before the electrical industry will be able to  provide us with sufficient power to charge them all.  I wouldn't recommend putting your Pagoda up for sale anytime soon!

The demise of the stick shift is an unrelated matter.  While I thoroughly enjoy driving my stick shift Pagoda and my Toyota pick up, I have no problem with a modern daily driver with an automatic transmission. Most who drive in today's traffic are not particularly interested in a manual transmission.  I find the paddle shift automatic in my Beemer to be a good compromise.     
Ralph

1969 280SL, 4 Speed Manual, Dark Olive (291H), Parchment Leather (256), Dark Green Soft Top (747)
1972 Mercedes-Benz 280SEL 4.5
1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SL
2007 BMW 328xi (E90)
Italy
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AndrewB

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2021, 08:51:50 »
I am involved in a business that makes the most powerful electric motors for the automotive and aerospace industry, measured in kW/kg. We provide motors at present to Ferrari for their SF90 hybrid and to McLaren for their Artura hybrid. Our motors are in every Koenigsegg hybrid. We not only have hyper car / super car clients, but we have a number of other programmes with Luxury, Performance and Premium manufacturers who operate in the space below the Supercars. These programmes cover hybrid and Electric Vehicle programmes. The technology is improving very quickly, and the current technology on sale reflects what was available 5 years ago. It is likely that a vastly superior generation of vehicles will launch post 2026, and most manufacturers are no longer spending money on ICE R&D but allocating all of their R&D budget to electrification and other subsidiary systems.

I am now 52, but am not planning to sell any of my fossil fuel cars. Even once the sale of cars with Internal Combustion Engines ("ICE") are banned after 2030 in the UK (and hybrids after 2035; many EU countries have the same rules), I expect that the majority of the in force population of vehicles will still require gasoline and diesel. They might become more heavily taxed (and hence expensive), but fossil fuels will still be around for some time to come. Also, it is doubtful that there will be enough electricity to power all of these electric vehicles (and all the other areas that will move from fossil fuel eg heating and cooking in the UK, which is mainly powered by gas at present).

The key issue raised by policymakers and legislators, seems to be the high perceived emissions of fossil fuel cars, however our Pagodas, which were built a long time ago, and now only create marginal emissions when used, are greener than any electric motor car that will be manufactured in future, from a total emissions point of view, since our Pagodas already exist, whereas future cars need all the raw materials to be mined and processed prior to being formed into motor cars.

If one looks at emissions and pollution over the total lifecycle from cradle to grave, EV's are even more polluting than fossil fuel cars given the amount of emissions and pollution for raw materials through to manufacture (and electricity generated in order to be able to use them). Fossil fuels have far greater energy per kg than any other form of fuel, so one uses more fuel per unit for alternatively fuelled vehicles. No one has yet done any good analysis on true emissions from alternative fuelled vehicles across the life cycle. The matter of electric aviation is even more of a pipe dream at this stage. Not to say it will never happen, but the laws of physics provide substantial challenges.

In summary, even with a fairly good handle on the technology and how it is developing, I think that it will be some time before I spend my own money on buying a Battery or hydrogen fuel cell electric motor car. This is against a backdrop where ICE will be banned for sale from 2030.   

I expect to enjoy my Pagodas and other classics for some decades to come, even in the emissions obsessed UK.

As an aside for those interested, the UK only emits 0.9% of global emissions, vs 30% for China, 15% for US, c.10% for India and even 7% for Germany. For some reason we seem to believe that by bankrupting ourselves by going for zero emissions by 2050 (which is a legal requirement due to UK legislation passed), we will save the planet. Even if we go to zero today, the saving in CO2 emissions will be swamped by the planned increase in Chinese emissions in 2021. It is like trying to hold back the tide.....
1969 280SL
1970 280SL (undergoing restoration)
1971 Range Rover Suffix A Kingsley Restomod
1987 500SL
2002 Porsche 996 Targa
2011 Landrover Defender TdCi
2019 Mercedes S560 Cabriolet

Pawel66

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2021, 10:29:24 »
Thank you for this interesting reading, with the voice coming from within the industry.

When, if ever, do you think we will have electric cars with a range of 600-800km so that they can be treated as "real" cars?
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

MikeSimon

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2021, 13:10:14 »
I think we all that are involved with vehicles of some kind for different reasons, have similar thoughts and concerns. AndrewB has some excellent points. I am retired now, but I worked in the automotive industry all my life and I have experienced several trends, where "experts" predicting the future told us everything would change "in five years". I did not happen. It took either significantly longer than they said it would or did not happen at all.
Currently there is no propulsion system using an energy source that us sustainable if EVERYBODY uses it. They all paint that rosy picture about EVs but where would the electricity for some 60 million vehicles come from. Leave alone the raw materials for the batteries. Even for what is there right now, certain issues are no all sorted out.
We just came back from a trip to FL, stayed in a place on Marco Island that had two EV charging spots in the parking garage. A red Tesla was parked on one of the spots for 4 days and di not move.

As far a stick-shifts are concerned, I own two manual shift "classic" cars (my W113 has AT). Our personal daily drivers have "Double Clutch" transmissions, which are essentially automatic shift manuals, but can be shifted manually. This is the current trend and will probably remain there for the remainder of ICE cars. Strange enough, Audi has reverted back to AT for some of their performance models.
Our company for a period of time was part of one of the largest conventional friction clutch manufacturers in the world. We saw production of this core product decline and almost disappear.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Cees Klumper

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2021, 13:20:20 »
The # of cars and trucks in use today is apparently around 1.4 billion and no doubt climbing fast.
My son is studying nuclear engineering and this seems to be our only realistic hope going forward, for the time being.
I am liking the restomod idea more and more, and converting the Pagoda to electric drive would be a choice many, many will be making. Sooner or later than we think, but that is what will happen to a good many of our cars.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

zak

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2021, 18:21:17 »
Interesting topic for sure.And many solid points of view.
Personally I think that EVs will become the norm for certain vehicle segments - certainly urban driving and delivery and service vehicles could clear the smog from many cities. But for long distance applications the EV is NG.
I think AndrewBs points about the real pollution generated from making new EVs and their batteries is spot on. I also think that gas and diesel fuels will be around for many years to come and the value of our 113s will not be negatively affected.
I have never even been in an EV let alone drive one, but I'll bet its cool and quiet. I could see myself owning and driving one when as Pawel said, it can be driven 300 - 400 miles between charges.
Let's all see what the future brings, meanwhile I'll be driving my MB gassers and diesels here in the US till I croak!

jz
1967 250 SL
1983 280 SL
2015 ML 250 Bluetec
2007 ML CDI
2004 E 320 Wagon
1999 E300 Turbodiesel

teahead

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2021, 18:25:22 »
I'll be dead before I have to worry about it.

120 years of ICE engines and counting, petrol-powered cars not going to have an issue getting fuel from now until 2090.
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

Benz Dr.

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2021, 18:37:45 »
Coal is still available for steam engines.  I'm not worried.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Peter van Es

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2021, 19:02:54 »
I have a Volkswagen ID.3 and for my daily travel (<200kms, with chargers both at the office and at home) it is excellent -- and the driving experience is great. You hardly notice the 1700kgs (due to the batteries) because of the torque of the electric motor. For pulling a horsetrailer and vacation travel I have a Volkswagen (petrol) Tiguan 2.0 4WD. So no range anxiety here.

I think I'll keep my Pagoda SL for as long as petrol is available. It is my classic rally car, my Pagoda Events car, and my "sometimes on holiday" car. Exceeding 5000 km's per year is rare... and so is the contribution to emissions. Netherlands has the same rules as the UK, but I think they'll make an exception for "classic" cars over 40 yrs old...
1970 280SL. System Admin of the site. Please do not mail or PM me questions on Pagoda's... I'm not likely to know the answer.  Please post on the forum instead!

Garry

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2021, 21:34:25 »
I have on order a Volvo Recharge full electric vehicle due for delivery in three months.


I am surprised by the comments about power supply if too many plug in.  In Australia about 20% of all houses have solar with a smaller number with batteries. This figure is rapidly rising. I have 10kw solar system and a 20 kw battery. Whilst connected to the grid, i don’t use any power from the grid but do sell my surplus power back into the grid.  The take up of solar is rapidly occurring in Australia with just about every new house having it so the argument that the EV would swamp the grid does not apply, so much so that there has been discussion about having a charge to those that want to wash off their surplus power to the grid because it is causing an overload in some areas and destabilising the grid.


Then to add insult to injury the State that i am in has just voted to apply a $0.025 cent per km charge to all EV’s and hybrid cars. Other states are also about to put this in place. The explanation is that they need to recover some of the lost $0.45c per litre in fuel excise tax used to maintain roads, that they are missing out on.  There are no incentives to purchasing an EV here.


Bottom line is that EV take up in Australia is minimal but there is surplus power to run them and State Governments that are trying to discourage the use of them. More than half of all vehicles sold are now diesel.  I dont think in my life time i will need to worry about the supply of fuel.


Garry
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

Benz Dr.

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2021, 01:23:15 »
I watched a video that discussed how long it would take if every car in America all had to go to electricity. Through a math formula, it was determined that it could be done in 4 to 5 years. Since not all cars would be switched, or changed at once, it's easily doable.

Not only were new electric car buyers given a tax credit towards their purchase, but I also don't think anyone here has ever spoken about the lost excise taxes on fuel.


 Hummm..... some new ammo I might be able to use. Thanks, Garry!
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

georgem

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2021, 02:54:48 »
Hi Gary,

We bought a Volvo XC 40 Recharge at the beginning of the year - its a plug in hybrid - a step between  conventional hybrid and the full electric that you have ordered.

We live in the "burbs so the 40km on battery only, does us most days - the first tank of petrol lasted for 1600kms!

We have  solar but I don`t use it for the car. It costs us $.19 /Kw, or $2.00 approx for a full charge which gets us 40km - about half the cost of the equivalent distance if we used the IC engine (3cyl 1.5litres). Because we were early adopters of solar, the price that we get per kw that we feed into the grid far exceeds this - a bit odd really as the Govt subsidized (cost of install and feed in) going solar for homes but is penalizing going electric for cars.

We are seriously considering upgrading to the full electric XC 40 when they becomes available.
George McDonald
Brisbane
230 Sl
1973 VW Kombi Single Cab Ute
2022 Volvo XC 40 Pure (100% electric)

Garry

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2021, 04:38:41 »
Hi George,


I ordered and put down a deposit on the XC 40 when i returned from Pagodafest in Nov 2019 and it was meant to be delivered last year but Covid came along and looks like Sept/Oct this year at earliest.


My rebate for solar is only .12c but because i have a Passivhaus the power usage is very low and i am earning about $400 a quarter refund. It has three phase for my hoist so i can put in a fast charge station. Return trip to Melbourne is 170km so the hybrid didn’t fit the bill.


I am in Thornlands/North Stradbroke for the next month or more doing a house sit and then will travel a bit further north before returning hopefully when the car is available.  Maybe wishful thinking.


I don’t see Australia having the power supply problem for EV’s that some think they will have overseas. Has Qld proposed a charge on milage for the electrics yet?


Garry
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, 213 Leather, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G Blue Grey
2005 MB A200.
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 with Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Twin Electric

Larry & Norma

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2021, 09:00:24 »
I love my Tesla M3 LR Dual Motor. There is something satisfying in knowing I can leave
the BMW boys (and some super cars) in my wake!
I will not be selling my Pagoda any time soon.
Larry Hall (Gnuface)
2023 Ioniq6
2005 C230
1970 280SL

thomas wright

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2021, 08:31:19 »
Thank you everyone for your time in engaging in this topic.  I was very impressed with the high level of detailed information provided about  where EV and ICE might be going in the future and that I feel more optimistic that our own cherished cars are no going to be museum displays any time soon.

Happy driving to all.

Tom


280SL, 1969, Auto, 050 White, Leather, all original, 

GM

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2021, 16:03:26 »
Lo and behold - in the Wall Street Journal this morning
Gary
1971 280SL - Sold
(98 from the end of production)
DB180 Silver Gray Metallic
Black MB Tex

69280sl

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"Classic" car conversion to Electric
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2021, 16:42:16 »
This may have been posted earlier. I did not find reference to it in my skim and search.
Ruining a good car to be green?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-future-of-classic-porsches-and-jaguars-electrification-11622865601
Gus

68 280sl, signal red/ beige/black softtop. Car # 1084

Benz Dr.

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Re: "Classic" car conversion to Electric
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2021, 19:15:42 »
         Green Pollution

Swinging arms, swinging free,
they have the power over me.
I see the lights, red at night,
they all say I'll be all right.
 
You really can feel their power,
they're spinin' lies by the hour.
Can you hear their engines whine?
First there's one, now there's nine.
 
We really didn't ask enough,
questions that were really tough.
And now we have a thousand towers,
churnin' out that pure green power.
 
 chorus:
 
And they're swingin',swingin' arms
Now we see their evil charms,
They light those cities far away,
but the country folk will have no say.
 
There's no stopping progress now,
there's no stopping a winter thaw.
They'll grind us up and spit us out,
and show us what it's all about.
 
The city folk are fancy dancers,
they dance around but give no answers.
We need a world that's clean and free,
and if you lose well don't blame me.
 
I'm sleeping well, alone tonight,
the swingin' arms are out of sight.
Out of sight and out of reach,
on your wallet like a bloody leach.
 
Chorus:
 
We're saving the planet; Polar Bears,
We're burning up but who really cares?
As long as I have my spot for free,
If it's on you, then it's not on me!
 
There you are just down the way,
makin' power and makin' hay.
Fillin' up your pockets full,
pullin' us all, pullin' the wool.
 
And it's all about that subsidy,
Living large but it ain't for free.
We talked about a green solution,
but all we got was green pollution.
 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Bonnyboy

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2021, 23:28:30 »
Great article -   I like the bit about our engines that they remove from the cars being "repurposed as a piece of nostalgic folk art."

Ian
69 280SL
65 F-100
73 CB750K
75 MGB
78 FLH
82 CB750SC
94 FLHTCU
08 NPS50

star63

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2021, 14:27:30 »
For the past 3 years, I've done my daily driving with a BMW i3. Fun and dirt cheap to drive!
I rarely use my Audi A8 (but I need it to pull a boat trailer or when driving longer distances).
I won't be selling my Pagoda. It's only getting a couple of thousand annual kilometers but I really enjoy the ride. I'm not worried about the fuel supply. There will be sustainable synthetic fuels available, made of green hydrogen  8).
Petri
'67 250 SL (early)
'66 230 SL (long project)
Finland

Merc_Girl

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2021, 22:09:01 »
Thank you Thomas for starting this interesting topic, and one I have thought long and hard about before purchasing my pagoda last year. As You can gather, it didn’t put me off.

For my few pennies worth, I just think there are far too many very wealthy and influential ‘classic car collectors’ out there, who certainly have enough leverage to ensure petrol/gas in some form, suitable for classic cars, will always be available, or at least whilst a level of demand is still there.

After all, how else would the (world famous!!?!) London - Brighton veteran car run continue (other than those that run on steam that is)? Now that’s a thought, let’s go to steam power, will then have gone full circle 🤪

I have always thought that having monies to put into the coffers of political parties which always provide one with an ‘ear’ and lobbying ability to those in power, rather distasteful, but in the case, the end justifies the means 😁
230SL

MikeSimon

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Re: The Future For Petrol Engine Cars
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2021, 00:50:29 »
I read an interesting bit today:
In the U.S., we currently have approximately 115 Million passenger cars in operation. Only approx. 2% of these are EVs.
If we would electrify half of that auto fleet we would need:
9 times the current global cobalt production,
3 times the current global lithium output and
2 times the current global copper production.

Now, guess what country holds the majority of rare metals/elements sources.
I doesn't look we are changing much in terms of dependency. Just shifting it from the Middle East to someplace else.
And while fossil fuels are not lasting forever, I wonder if cobalt, lithium and copper do?

Mercedes announced that they will go total EV by 2030.
I really wonder if all the hype is going to change soon, when the bureaucrats and office desk experts realize that their forecasts were not accurate.

1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner