Author Topic: 280SL Cylinder Liners  (Read 3073 times)

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
280SL Cylinder Liners
« on: January 16, 2021, 18:43:11 »
Is the installation of cylinder liners in the 130.983 280SL engine block (liner wall thickness 2.5mm -approx. 100 thou of an inch) feasible or would the limited thickness of the casting between cylinders prohibit that?

I am considering this versus a rebore to 1st oversize (87.00mm) because I already have a new set of standard pistons (86.50mm).

Any views on such liner use or should I go for a rebore and the purchase of oversized pistons?
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2021, 20:45:09 »
I have no experience with liners for an M130-983 but my concern always is, how large you have to bore for liners and the stress that occurs on the remaining walls when pressing them in. May not be an issue at all.
But as you have to bore anyway, why not go to 1st oversize. You will gain a little compression and maybe a hp or two 8) ;D
You can always go larger bore for liners down the road.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2021, 21:35:54 »
I tried that idea last spring and quickly found that it wasn't possible.  Standard-sized 280 pistons make good wall mounts, unfortunately.  I have a set of 87.00 mm flat top pistons in stock. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 19:55:44 by Benz Dr. »
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2021, 09:30:14 »
I will try and swap my unused set of 86.50mm Mahle pistons with an 87.00mm set from my parts supplier. I am also afraid of any damage that can be done when pressing the new liners in the thin cylinder walls. I am also having trouble convincing my machine shop who insist that sleeping is feasible.... thanks for the suggestions and advice anyway.  :) Dr Benz could you please PM me on the cost and make of your 87mm piston set?
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

stickandrudderman

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, England, Richmond
  • Posts: 2799
    • http://www.colinferns.com
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2021, 11:24:55 »
I have lined 280 cylinders without issue. Just requires a very skilled machine shop.

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1718
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2021, 14:15:30 »
True, but wouldn't liners be the sort of option to which one would resort when a good sound block has been bored out to its maximum possible safe overbore due to multiple rebuilds?  It doesn't seem that the original poster's block has reached that point as yet.
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2021, 19:05:02 »
True my block is still in its original state with standard pistons. Two cylinder bores are just outside limits with about 0.5mm of wear, the other 4 cylinders are between 0.3 to 0.4mm of bore wear. Therefore if I didn’t have the standard set of pistons available I would have gone for the 87.0mm oversized pistons and the corresponding cylinder rebore.

In view of the fact that I have the standard pistons already what my machine shop proposes to do (with a high degree of confidence as they claim) is to use sleeves of wall thickness 1.25mm, hence the existing cylinder will be rebored to 89.0mm and the new sleeves will be pressed in.

They propose to make a step at the bottom of the existing cylinder bore - by stopping short the rebore just before the end of the cylinder and also cut the sleeve short so that it will fit into this recess which will provide support at the bottom of the sleeve, the cylinder cylinder head providing the upper support and the sleeve will be rigidly anchored at both ends.

Having looked myself at the available metal between the cooling water slots on the block between cylinders I am also of the opinion that the sleeves will fit without creating any problems. I am glad that stickandrudderman has had a positive experience with sleeving the M130 engine.

I will make a final decision tomorrow and if I will go ahead with the fitting of cylinder sleeves I will post photos of the overhauled block by this weekend.
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2021, 19:24:03 »
Not so sure. From your personal info, I gather you have a the "later" 280 engine with the added cooling slots between the cylinders. There is less room than with the others. I would seriously check
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Shvegel

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Cleveland Heights
  • Posts: 2978
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2021, 03:14:51 »
Speaking as a lifelong mechanic I would start looking into the cost of shipping your block from Cypress to England to someone who has done it before. 

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 05:18:09 »
 My block last spring was already maxed overbore and .005" past that. Seeing as it was already beyond repair we opted for an early engine and mixed and matched parts to make it work. The car was OK but far from the original so it all worked out OK.

My machine shop told me they couldn't fix the old block and the cylinder head was 83.5 mm thick so aside from the crank and IP, there was little we could use.  I had to keep the block and the head together as a unit so this was an easy executive decision.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Cees Klumper

  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5502
    • http://SL113.org
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2021, 13:49:16 »
If the sleeve thickness, of 1.5 mm, is not more than the difference between standard and max overbore pistons, then it should be fine to use them?
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7128
  • Benz Dr.
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2021, 15:43:53 »
If the sleeve thickness, of 1.5 mm, is not more than the difference between standard and max overbore pistons, then it should be fine to use them?

My machinist told me that there's a minimum thickness of cylinder liner used. My application wasn't going to work.

1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2021, 01:06:42 »
I had the liners inserted today in the block. They have a wall thickness of 1.25mm and the original bore (86.5mm) was bored out to 89mm to accommodate the new sleeves. A small part of the original bore (around 3mm) at the bottom of each cylinder was left without boring it out to provide a supporting base for the new sleeves. I have 2 photos of the work done attached. Block top and block from underneath showing the lining and its securing “step”
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 01:22:02 by naristodemou »
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

Cees Klumper

  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5502
    • http://SL113.org
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2021, 17:17:45 »
Looks good, please report back on the actual experience of running in your fresh engine.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2021, 05:01:47 »
Just an update on the engine rebuild process.

Engine was reinstalled last Thursday, all ancillaries and accessories fitted on Friday and yesterday, Saturday engine was started and set up timing, linkages and mixture. Engines runs well and have driven the car for about 50 km in town. At the moment all seems good. I didn’t rev the engine more than 3000 rpm, I will run it in for about a 1000km. Today I will do some highway motoring.

Thanks to the group for all the views and support on the cylinder liner issue.
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7308
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2021, 17:56:28 »
"1000 klm today" !? Quite an ambitious drive on a fresh engine.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

MikeSimon

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, North Royalton
  • Posts: 2392
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2021, 12:59:58 »
I think the "1000km" and the "Today" are in two different sentences..
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2021, 02:31:11 »
Exactly, running in period would be until car covers 1000km. I never said it would be done in a day  :)

In any case I have now done 250km since rebuilt mixed city and highway runs. Engine is gradually loosening up.
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7308
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2021, 03:55:20 »
My mistake, sorry for the confusion.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2021, 00:32:26 »
Just as closing remarks, the car has now run in and covered just over 1200 miles in a period of 6 weeks. Running in was done at both city traffic and highway driving never exceeding 4000rpm. At 600 miles I changed the engine oil and filter, retorqued the cylinder head bolts and adjusted the valves. My general comments are the following:

1. No measurable oil consumption vs the 1 liter/ 200miles that I had before.

2. No engine oil leaks

3. Engine runs cooler by about 5-10 deg C and definitely feels more powerful.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 01:47:59 by naristodemou »
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS

Shvegel

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Cleveland Heights
  • Posts: 2978
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2021, 09:52:03 »
I think I would be very careful about the engine temperature.  If it ever overheats I would shut it off immediately. 

Nicolas Aristodemou

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Cyprus, Lefkosia, NICOSIA
  • Posts: 214
  • 280SL Auto 1970 W113, 380SL Auto 1982 R107
Re: 280SL Cylinder Liners
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2021, 18:33:33 »
What I had stated was that car is running cooler after the overhaul....
Nicolas Aristodemou
Nicosia - CYPRUS
280SL Auto 1970 US spec (W113), 380SL 1982 R107, Citroen DS23 Pallas 1973, Triumph TR4 1963, Triumph Stag 1973, Mini Cooper S Mk1
1965, Jaguar 3.8 Mk2 1962, VW Beetle 1978 Karman Converible, 1987 Ferrari 328GTS