Author Topic: Injection pump check valve  (Read 4893 times)

jim 56

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Injection pump check valve
« on: June 22, 2020, 22:32:18 »
Hello all does anybody know the part number for the check valve in the outlet fuel line of the injection pump . It is a later R28 pump

Casey Saravanan

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2022, 16:42:50 »
Are you referring to the part i highlighted in the picture?....Could you help to check if your part is hollow? Mine is entirely hollow....don't understand how it functions as a check valve.
**picture credit to ja17

dirkbalter

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2022, 18:01:28 »
Hello all does anybody know the part number for the check valve in the outlet fuel line of the injection pump . It is a later R28 pump

Jim,
don't want to hijack your post but we have a forum member "pawel". He was always very helpful and would provide MB part #'s instantly to whoever asked, amongst other things. I haven't seen him for a while , miss him,  and hope he is well?
Dirk
66 230 SL
70 280 SEL
53 CHEVY 3100
18 C300 COUPE
05 HD FLSTNI

Berggreen

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2022, 20:07:22 »
I guess you are referring to the ball valves at the outlets to the injection nozzles, right?

There are two versions of these ball valves, for the early (R11/R18 for 230SL/250SL) and late (R20-R25) injection pumps. I don't know about the R28 which was not installed in the w113. I guess it is a late sedan pump, and should us the same ball valves as the other late injection pumps. But someone else may need to confirm this.

But be aware, these ball valves are not produced by Bosch anymore and are very difficult to find and very expensive, if you are lucky to find some. I do have a spare set in my stock of spare parts, and I am reluctant to part with it. But send me a message, if you cannot find any yourself. ;)

Cheers,

Christian
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

Casey Saravanan

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2022, 04:09:24 »
Hi Christian,

Im referring to the fitting on the side of the pump, that connects the pump out flow(return fuel back to the tank) to the damper not the fitting on the top that goes to the injectors.

I have some input from Joe as below:-

//There are two types of check valve. The early version used a fitting with an open tiny hole. Later on, a by-pass fuel line between the electric fuel pump and the fuel return line (by the gas tank) was added. In this case a fitting with a check-valve replaced the earlier "tiny hole" version on the injection pump. If you have the later BBB, see pp. 07-16/1.//

Refer to the picture on the part I'm referring to.

Berggreen

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2022, 04:55:56 »
Hi Christian,

Im referring to the fitting on the side of the pump, that connects the pump out flow(return fuel back to the tank) to the damper not the fitting on the top that goes to the injectors.

I have some input from Joe as below:-

//There are two types of check valve. The early version used a fitting with an open tiny hole. Later on, a by-pass fuel line between the electric fuel pump and the fuel return line (by the gas tank) was added. In this case a fitting with a check-valve replaced the earlier "tiny hole" version on the injection pump. If you have the later BBB, see pp. 07-16/1.//

Refer to the picture on the part I'm referring to.

Great info - Thanks! 😀
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

Casey Saravanan

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2022, 05:35:23 »
Anybody has a picture of this part on their pump? Still a mystery why this part is entirely hollow on the car im working on maybe the internals has fallen out....

Seems like black forest  has brought this up in one of their contest ads (refer picture)

Anyone understands the purpose of the fitting do enlighten.

Thanks

ctaylor738

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2022, 14:27:02 »
Here is a picture of the "jet" and pressure valve in the outlet fitting of my R11 pump.
Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

Berggreen

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2022, 16:19:45 »
Here is a picture of the "jet" and pressure valve in the outlet fitting of my R11 pump.

Here is how the check valve looks like on a spare R24Y pump, I have on the shelf.

I tried to unscrew the check valve, but is stuck and I don’t want to use a lot of torque to unscrew it.

Cheers,

Christian
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

Casey Saravanan

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2022, 09:07:55 »
Thanks everybody for the input. Looks like the intended design requires some sort of valve or other in that fitting.

This car has an R18Y pump, if anyone has one lying around please help to confirm on the fitting configuration. I'd imagine it should be like Christian's R24Y pump fitting as the pump iteration number is not too far away from R18Y.

Anyone know any potential problem that could manifest without the valve fitting? The car I'm working on has a start and cut off problem. Unless i remove the WRD entirely and block the manifold air bypass i cant hold the idle...all the pump timing ,valve timing, ignition timing, cold start circuit, fuel flow volume and pressure, lingkage adjustment has been verified to be good.

Car went in for restoration and somehow got messed up.

Thanks all.

ctaylor738

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2022, 01:29:57 »
It sounds to me like you're looking in the wrong place.

Have you done a fuel volume check at the return line, and a pressure check at the cold start valve?

Are you getting hot water to the WRD?

Have you checked the the thermostat and air slide in the WRD?

Did you remove the air filter on the WRD and check for suction at cold start and little or no suction warmed up?

Looking at the picture, I see incorrect screws on the clamps for the output fittings, which make me wonder about the skills of the pump rebuilder.

Good luck,

CAT
Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

dirkbalter

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2022, 02:04:21 »
Thanks everybody for the input. Looks like the intended design requires some sort of valve or other in that fitting.

This car has an R18Y pump, if anyone has one lying around please help to confirm on the fitting configuration. I'd imagine it should be like Christian's R24Y pump fitting as the pump iteration number is not too far away from R18Y.

Anyone know any potential problem that could manifest without the valve fitting? The car I'm working on has a start and cut off problem. Unless i remove the WRD entirely and block the manifold air bypass i cant hold the idle...all the pump timing ,valve timing, ignition timing, cold start circuit, fuel flow volume and pressure, lingkage adjustment has been verified to be good.

Car went in for restoration and somehow got messed up.

Thanks all.

R18 pump if that’s what you are looking for?
Dirk
66 230 SL
70 280 SEL
53 CHEVY 3100
18 C300 COUPE
05 HD FLSTNI

Casey Saravanan

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2022, 05:31:46 »
Hi Chuck

1) Fuel volume and pressure around 0.9 bar(But upon turning the ignition key it takes about maybe 20seconds for the system to pressurize if the car has not been started/"attempt to start" in a few days) and slightly less than 3.8 liters per minute flow, I checked this at the fitting above the forward fuel filter near the FIP. Pressure at the CSV line also good. I didn't check the return line...but i have clear hoses installed and the flow back to the tank appears to be good.

Is there a number for what the return line pressure and flow should be? I assumed it is a closed loop system so measuring the pressure and flow at the pump fuel intake should be a good representation of the system pressure and flow. However if the fitting restriction valve is meant to be there on the pump fuel exit fitting i would imagine the exit flow and pressure should also set where the whole system reaches equilibrium? Maybe the pump actually needs that flow restriction from the fuel exit fitting valve to operate correctly?

2)Car starts and cuts off immediately. doesn't hold idle. So never really gets up to temperature. the WRD was completely cleaned up and a new thermostat was installed and same problem(starts and stops)the air slide also was cleaned up and the suction/no suction function is good at the WRD filter . Essentially as long as the WRD plunger acts on the FIP associated plunger the car never runs and holds idle. I did test the thermostat plunger extension across temperatures and it appears to function correctly. This is the Brass stop at the plunger tip to the thermostat body(right where the plunger enters the capsule housing)measurements

 Room Temp: 14mm
 -12C     : 12mm
 100C     : 20mm

3)With the WRD thermostat removed the corresponding FIP plunger that the WRD plunger acts on is at its full uncompressed travel and the car is able to idle and run.When the thermostat is in...car is never able to run.(starts and stops)

4)There are incorrect screws,bolts,nuts all over the place, Definitely the guys who worked on this car were not competent to work on it. What i understand from the owner is the pump and car was running like clockwork before the restoration began. The pump wasnt rebuilt during the restoration but some of the fittings etc were removed so plating could be done. I think maybe they just thought its a good idea to change out any old bolts etc.

5)I did change all the injectors as well as the old ones were totally shot, very bad fuel spray pattern and some not functioning at the right pressure etc. So i think...can rule out injectors.

Dirk...i have confirmation from Michael at Black Forest LLC that the outlet fitting should have a plastic valve in there. Don't think its feasible for you to take out the fitting just to verify this unless you have a spare R18Y on your bench.

Thanks all.

ctaylor738

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2022, 19:41:30 »
Hmm,

The initial firing is probably from the cold start valve.

When you remove the WRD, you are at full choke, and if that's what the engine needs to start and run, then it would seem to not be getting enough fuel with the WRD in place.  Maybe the pump does need the restriction of the pressure valve to raise the pressure and send fuel out to the injectors.  You should be able to test this by pinching the return line.  So maybe grab a clamp or use pliers to apply various amounts on "pinch" to the line and see what happens.

I could not find a listing in the epc for the output fitting or the pressure valve.  But it is shown in the Bosch diagram in the Technical Manual.

You might also try taking the little cover off the front of the pump and thread a 5 mm screw into the end of the rack and make sure it is moving freely.

Good luck,

CT
Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

Berggreen

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2022, 05:17:25 »
Hello,

If the car runs and idles without the WRD installed, I doubt you have a serious return line pressure problem, because then it would not run either in that condition.

So before playing with return line pressure, have you then verified that the oval shims under the WRD are indeed in place?

You did not mention the oval shims in your description above, and if installing the WRD makes the cold engine stall, it sounds to me as if you have a much too lean mixture after the initial few seconds fuel burst of CSV.

If someone lost the oval shims during the re-assembly of the FIP, this could be the reason why the engine stalls at warm-up.

If the oval shims are missing, add 1-2 mm shims to start with and see how the engine runs during warm-up. There is a procedure in the BBB how to adjust the warm-up mixture by adding/removing oval shims. But this should first be done, after the full range and (warm) idle mixture have been set. So get the engine running first, and then do the fine tuning later.

Actually, there is also a set of round shims under the thermostat plunger inside the WRD which regulate the duration of the warm-up period with increased fuel mixture. Check if they are there as well and adjust amount later when the car is running.

Finally, the period it takes the FIP to build up pressure to the injectors is affected by the condition of the ball valves under the six outlets on the FIP to the injectors. If they are worn, fuel will leak back to FIP, when the engine is off, and it will take longer time to build up pressure again at start-up. But this is usually a problem seen, when you try to start the car after 30-40 min, where the engine is half-warm and the coolant temp is still above 35C, and where the CSV is therefore not activated.
But I could imagine that if it in your case takes the FIP 20 seconds to build up pressure to the injectors, these ball valves could be very worn, and therefore the fuel lines totally empty of fuel at cold start. But just a guess!

Cheers,

Christian
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 05:39:03 by Berggreen »
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

philmas

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2022, 14:43:50 »
By the way, would you know  a source for these ball check valves? They seem NLA from SLS and Niemholler...
Philippe from Paris
Euro '71 280SL manual 4sp

Alex D

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2022, 15:55:36 »
I looked into new ball valves for my injection pump a few months ago.  No body has them, might be able to find one or two here and there, from a injection pump rebuilder if your lucky and that is used if they have them.  Part Number is 1417412001

Bosch makes the injection pump ball  valves, and one the injection pump rebuilders told me that Bosch is waiting until they get enough demand like around 10,000 before they would produce more.

Alex
Alex D
1967 250 SL
Original 140K mi
181 Light Beige, with  112 Turquoise Interior

Casey Saravanan

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2022, 16:25:41 »
Hi Chuck ,Christian

Exactly my thoughts aswell.I will try to clamp the return and see if there is an improvement.If this helps to recover the idling then we are on to something. However one thought is the hose fitting mating surface to the damper from the FIP outlet itself has a sort of small orifice which i imagine gives some kind of additional flow restriction aswell...not sure if we are able to duplicate the valve behaviour just by adding restriction. Bought a small petrol on off valve this may give some finer control on the flow. Worth a try anyway.

The pump rack is free and movement is good.I did remove the pump to check if the pump timing/spline alignment was correct.I adjusted everything to make sure it was correct.

I did get Michael's input from Black forest LLC that the valve is intended to hold the fuel pressure in the fuel gallery inside the pump.

The shims under the WRD are present.The shims inside the plunger slide housing is also there under the locking ring. I did inspect all the ball valves under the six outlets and they appeared to be in good order and clean,the white seal also looked in good order.I did fab up the special tool to pull out the valves so i could establish the pump timing with the plunger depth when debugging the problem earlier on.I guess once i get the car running i might aswell change these out since it will affect the pressure build/fuel volume up to the injectors.Thanks for the tip Christian

Thanks all
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 16:46:05 by Casey Saravanan »

philmas

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2022, 16:49:23 »
Found one on this site: Fixparts-Online.fr, but pretty expensive (200€ incl. shipping). Seems that scarcity drives up the prices...
My engine always starts on 5 cylinders when cold, and takes almost five minutes to run fine.
What would be the procedure to identify the faulty valve?
Should I disconnect one spark plug at a time, and look for any change?( I mean removing the plug from the faulty cylinder shoudn't make any change...)
I would like to avoid unscrewing all pump outlets, as these fuel lines look really delicate...
What does your "special tool" look like?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 17:16:40 by philmas »
Philippe from Paris
Euro '71 280SL manual 4sp

Berggreen

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2022, 17:02:02 »
Found one on this site: Fixparts-Online.fr, but pretty expensive (200€ incl. shipping)

That site I also found parts on not available anywhere else, just to discover that they could not deliver either, when you made the order. So don’t get your hopes up!

Unfortunate, I also made some market research about a year ago, and I could not find any new ball valves either. I was then lucky to find a set of six new ones from a private seller, which I now have on the shelf, as I did not install them after all, as I found a R24W FIP instead of the US config R24Y in my 280SL, which I wanted to get rid of. But that was pure luck that he had them for sale on the German EBay Kleinanzeigen, just when I was looking for them. ;)

Note that there are two different versions of these ball valves, and they change between 230/250SL and 280SL. So R18-versions and backwards and R21 and onwards in terms of FIP. The valves for the 280SL has a small groove, which the 230/250SL type does not have.

Cheers,
Christian
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

bracurrie

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2022, 15:29:41 »
... I found a R24W FIP instead of the US config R24Y
Just for my education, what is the difference between the R24W and R24Y?  I know the Y has fuel shutoff functionality. But is there anything else?
Brad
1970 280 SE W108.018
M130.980 w/ US emissions
manual column shift

Berggreen

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2022, 20:56:27 »
Just for my education, what is the difference between the R24W and R24Y?  I know the Y has fuel shutoff functionality. But is there anything else?
Brad

Hi Brad

Oh there is a lot of difference, because the two FIPs were used on two markets with very different emission regulations.

The R24Y was used only on the US market and in the 1970-71 model years of the 280SL. The US emission regulations were aimed at reducing NOx, and this was achieved by MB by reducing the burn temperature. To do this the amount of injected fuel was increased and the ignition was artificially retarded at low revs with special relays and vacuum drives - both with a lower burn temperature as a result. Also, like for the earlier US market FIPs, the R24Y also included a stop solenoid, shutting off fuel supply with no accelerator input.
The R24Y is therefore not designed for accurate injection volumes, but rather to push as much fuel as possible into the engine, which is not preferred, if you today, without the rest of the US emission systems installed, want to make your 280SL run as smooth as possible and with a reasonable fuel economy. Especially in Europe, 280SL owners with re-imported US configuration cars prefer to replace the R24Y with something else, eg. the R24W.

The R24W was designed for the exact opposite emission configuration, as it was designed for the 1971 model year of the 280SL on the Swedish market (which has lead to the German nick name “die Schweden Pumpe”). Sweden had just as the first European country (the rest followed soon after) introduced strict emission control regulations, but not on NOx but instead on CO. To reduce the CO in the exhaust gasses, you have to control and reduce the amount of fuel you inject, but still achieve the same performance of the engine. The R24W is therefore a refined version of the otherwise used R25 FIP in the late 280SL on the rest of the European markets, and therefore the most preferred FIP to install in your late 280SL, especially if you are coming from a R24Y and want to make your engine run as smooth and precise as possible. The R24W is also much easier to find compared to the R25, which was only used in the late European 280SLs, whereas the R24W was also used in the late 280SE on the European markets, before MB migrated to the D-jetronic systems across all of their fuel injected models in the early 1970s. The R24W therefore was produced in much higher numbers than the R25, and more R24W FIPs are therefore available today sourced from scrapped 280SE’s, whereas not many European 280SL’s have been scrapped and thus the R25 is a very rare bird to find, not already installed in an existing European late 280SL.

Finally, like the R25, the R24W does not have a stop solenoid, and neither a start solenoid, though the R24Y does not have that either, as it was eliminated before these late FIPs were developed.

But I can highly recommend getting rid of the  US config R24Y and instead install a R24W, if you want to get as much out of your late 280SL engine, unless you have a (rare) European late 280SL with a R25, where the advantage of the R24W only will be a slightly improved fuel economy and precision.

Hope this gives a good overview of the differences. :)

Cheers,

Christian

Ps: I have just replaced the R24Y with a R24W in my manual 1970 280SL, and I am very satisfied. I have an extra R24W on the shelf for a future transplantation into my automatic 1971 280SL, which currently has a R24Y installed, though with “racing specs” giving high performance but a miserable fuel economy! ;)
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

Casey Saravanan

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2022, 02:43:20 »
Hi Phillippe,

Plenty of resources in the forum on the DIY tool to remove the check valves. I just cloned what others have done in the group.

Refer :-

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=27416.0

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15754.0

I basically used a bolt and milled down a nut[1.0 pitch..double check this number in the links.I forget..:)..]. You need to get the correct thread pitch for the nut. The bolt can still be an oversize/or slightly larger pitch(i used a 1.5 pitch as i had to wait to get a 1.0 pitch) as long as you can bite into some of the thread of the milled nut and is locked in place. Need to leave some thread on the milled nut so you can turn it into the check valve to engage and pull out.

Thanks

Thanks

roymil

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2022, 17:05:30 »
Thank you Christian for the background on the FIP's.   That helps explains why we have so many versions.   

I did want to get back to Jim56's original question on this post about the PN for the check valve on the fuel line exit from the pump (not the six lines to the cylinders).  I had some of the same questions Casey did about the function of this valve and how much back pressure it should create inside the pump.   I have good fuel flow rate, but low pressure of about 10psi, using either of two known good electric pumps back by the tank, so i know it's not a fuel sourcing issue.   If I crimp the exit hose then the pressure will increase to near ~14psi which many posts indicate is required.  Some say my engine should not perform well at 10psi but it runs very well most times except when very hot and then it sometimes stumbles a bit on hard acceleration.   

So I am thinking the fuel exit/return check valve has degraded and so I am looking for a new one with the idea that it will help maintain higher back pressure, nearer to 15psi spec.
Appreciate any tips on where to find a new check valve, or alternatively, a reliable regulated way to increase back pressure to spec at any temperature or altitude.  Clamping or reduced orifice method will not be consistent, which I'm going to guess is why Bosch went away from the pinhole exit fittings on the earlier versions.

thanks! Mark
« Last Edit: October 16, 2022, 17:18:17 by roymil »
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

philmas

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Re: Injection pump check valve
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2022, 17:13:30 »
Thanks for the tip!
Philippe from Paris
Euro '71 280SL manual 4sp