Author Topic: Plastic Behind Door Panels (Read 15728 times)

ChrisInNashville · « **on:** March 04, 2005, 21:28:26 »

In disassembling my doors to replace side mirrors, I found that there is no long plastic behind the door panels. Should this concern me? What grade of plastic & glue should be used to correct?

tdun824259 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2005, 22:36:45 »

Christie,

The plastic is very important to replace. It acts as the moisture barrier for the interior door. I have recently redone my door panels. I used a heavy 4 mil plastic and double sided tape for easier removal. I would assume at some point I will have to get back into the doors and didn't want to hassle with removing alot of glue residue. Definitely put the moisture barrier back in place, I've heard horror stories.
tdun824259
1971 280 SL

Douglas · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2005, 23:57:42 »

I looked at what was left of mine carefully this past summer. On my 280 SL, the factory used a clear thick piece of plastic sheeting similar to a tarp you'd find in rolls in any hardware store. Offhand, I don't recall whether there was spray adhesive used, but I definitely remember pieces of masking tape running along the top of the plastic holding it down from the top. I would think tape applied every few inches around the perimeter would be enough to hold it in place since it's sandwiched between the door and the door panel.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

ted280sl · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2005, 16:52:00 »

Christie,
A 3mil garbage bag and some duct tape will work just fine. The idea is to keep water which runs down the window channel from damaging the carboard on the inside of the door panels. Obviously no duct tape should be visible once the door panel is replaced. If Doug judges you
Ted
1969 280SL

n/a · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2005, 22:25:24 »

I believe the heavy plastic material from a hardware store is the best bet. In my experience, plastic trash bags tend to degrade rather quickly. I used strip caulk to hold the plastic in place while I installed the door panels.

Iverson

Raymond · « **Reply #5 on:** March 14, 2005, 17:21:01 »

Listen to Iverson and Tdun. Use 4 or 6 mil plastic sheeting. It's cheap enough and easy to cut. It's a tad more rigid and garbage bags are actually supposed to "bio-degrade".

If you don't use some adhesive in the middle parts of the door, there is a slight chance that, at speed, air from a leaking door seal could sneak in and vibrate the plastic like a kazoo.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

Anfinn · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2008, 04:32:35 »

As I am about to fit new door panels, I have been reading through the archive on the subject, and use this thread to ask a question:
Are there any reasons for not fitting the "damp-proof barrier" to the door panel rather than to the door? It seem to me it will be a lot less hassle to have it attached to the panel, if in the future you need access to the door interior?

'andy280
1970 280 auto

Douglas · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2008, 07:49:53 »

Andy,

I wouldn't attach plastic to the backside of the door panel. I'd do it as it was originally and use a light adhesive or tape at the top of the backside of the door. I think the panel should be able to "breathe."

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

thelews · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2008, 08:31:20 »

quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

Andy,

I wouldn't attach plastic to the backside of the door panel. I'd do it as it was originally and use a light adhesive or tape at the top of the backside of the door. I think the panel should be able to "breathe."

Why would the panel "breathe" any more with the plastic on the door once the panel is secured tightly? FWIW, on my '64 Porsche 356 the plastic is on the panel and both the panel and door have aged well. I'm still deciding which is best, but it seems that with the plastic on the panel, one doesn't have to rip it all off the door every time some service or lube may be required.

John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

Douglas · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2008, 09:09:14 »

I'm guessing you want the water to stay inside the door cavity as much as possible instead of draining out from the space between the door panel and the door.

Nonetheless, you may be right, John. If you try it, please let us know how it turns out.

(FWIW, BMW takes a similar approach to Mercedes with the plastic inside the doors.)

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

France · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2008, 14:24:58 »

Hi guys,

I replaced mine with very heavy vinyl plastic sheeting--the kind that's sold to "frost" windows for privacy--held in with hot glue. The glue comes off pretty easily if you have to repair or replace...

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...

Anfinn · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2008, 07:18:58 »

Thanks for responses.
I'm thinking along the same lines as John.
If no further arguments for doorfixing are forthcoming, I'll go for fixing to the panel.
It won't be long before I find out if I made a mistake, here on the wet west coast of Norway!

'andy280
1970 280 auto

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2008, 16:36:56 »

Maunfacturers fix the plastic to the door , not the panel, for two reasons: to prevent water from damaging the backsides of the door trim panels and also as a draught excluder to help prevent cold air drafts in the winter time. Fixing the plastic to the trim panels will prevent damage to the backside of the panel but does nothing to aid draught exclusion.

- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)

thelews · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2008, 17:25:16 »

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes

Maunfacturers fix the plastic to the door , not the panel, for two reasons: to prevent water from damaging the backsides of the door trim panels and also as a draught excluder to help prevent cold air drafts in the winter time. Fixing the plastic to the trim panels will prevent damage to the backside of the panel but does nothing to aid draught exclusion.

I'm not arguing, just trying to understand. If the end result is a piece of plastic sandwiched between the door and the door panel, what difference does it make to which side it's affixed to? It seems the end result is the same.

John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2008, 17:56:31 »

That's fair. Let me give it a try.

Air and water enter the door cavity all along the window glass. The plastic draught excluder, or "damp proof barrier," is put there to prevent water from attacking the (usually cardboard) backside of the door trim panel which is somewhat exposed through all the door cavity openings, especially when the window is rolled up (like when it is raining!). The benefit of taping the plastic to the door (and taping all around the edge of the plastic) is that air drafts are prevented from entering the passenger cabin via all the cavity openings in the door and thence around the edges of the door panel. Admittedly, this may be less of a problem on a Pagoda than most other cars because of the nice chrome trim pieces secured by all those tiny chrome screws at the front, bottom, and rear of the door trim panel. Most other cars have door trim panels that are just held to the door by a handful of screws or bunch of plastic plugs and have lots of gaps all around the edges. Still, that is the reason why the plastic draught excluder is attached to the door, rather than just to the backside of the door trim panel. There is nothing more annoying than a cold draft of air wafting at your hips or legs on a cold winter day in an otherwise tight car!

- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)

thelews · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2008, 18:29:49 »

The short answer, if the door panel is not flat and secure against the door then moisture and air can escape in the gaps. I'm convinced. Just for the record, it's how I did my 190 SL doors. It's "baggy" in the large space to allow for the recessed door panel pocket.

John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

Douglas · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2008, 20:09:47 »

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes

Maunfacturers fix the plastic to the door , not the panel, for two reasons: to prevent water from damaging the backsides of the door trim panels and also as a draught excluder to help prevent cold air drafts in the winter time. Fixing the plastic to the trim panels will prevent damage to the backside of the panel but does nothing to aid draught exclusion.

- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)

This is all a sort of mental exercise, so I'd like to add one more hypothesis—if the plastic is attached to the backside of the door panel and not the door, couldn't you get condensation between the door panel and the plastic that would have no way of escaping?

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

rwmastel · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2008, 22:40:15 »

quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

.... if the plastic is attached to the backside of the door panel and not the door, couldn't you get condensation between the door panel and the plastic that would have no way of escaping?

If it can't get out, then how did it get in?

quote:
Originally posted by thelews

The short answer, if the door panel is not flat and secure against the door then moisture and air can escape in the gaps.

Very nice, guys! That's good reasoning and good info to have.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan

jameshoward · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2008, 01:47:05 »

John,

Mildly OT but I see you have dynamat on the inside of your doors. I am researching - slowly - putting an amplifier into my SL to enable me to better hear my music (from my 2 speakers mounted in the kick panels). I wondered about dynamat but had sort of concluded that given that I tend to drive the car with the hood [soft top] down, it wouldn't make any difference. What are your experiences and where else did you put it? I think I will steer clear of putting on the floors as I am concerned that I would be unalble to identify any early signs of rust or water ingress.

James

thelews · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2008, 08:20:43 »

quote:
Originally posted by jameshoward

John,

Mildly OT but I see you have dynamat on the inside of your doors. I am researching - slowly - putting an amplifier into my SL to enable me to better hear my music (from my 2 speakers mounted in the kick panels). I wondered about dynamat but had sort of concluded that given that I tend to drive the car with the hood [soft top] down, it wouldn't make any difference. What are your experiences and where else did you put it? I think I will steer clear of putting on the floors as I am concerned that I would be unalble to identify any early signs of rust or water ingress.

James

Uh oh.

I can't really give you a before/after review. It's well regarded and is supposed to deaden resonance and vibration. There is another product I've been shown, don't have the name handy, that is somewhat like Dynamat material on either side of a very moldable piece of metal. The shop says it's fantastic. I don't think moisture entrapment is an issue if properly installed. You could call the shop at www.blackforestllc.com to get the name. Very qualified 113 guys.

John

John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

jameshoward · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2008, 18:28:53 »

Holy cow, that's a lot of Dynamat. I think water entrapment/ingress is an issue in Europe where frankly, the climate of late is crap beyone belief. Your cars look fantastic.

Douglas · « **Reply #21 on:** January 20, 2008, 11:26:53 »

quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

.... if the plastic is attached to the backside of the door panel and not the door, couldn't you get condensation between the door panel and the plastic that would have no way of escaping?
If it can't get out, then how did it get in?

Rodd

Rodd,

The best I can come up with is magic. The same way you get humidity inside double-paned glass windows. I'm with you here—I want answers!

Seriously though, I would like to know if plastic attached to the door panels is the way to go or if it creates any issues with either moisture or drafts.

We know the 356 Porsche had a different approach to a Pagoda, but what about the 911? I'm curious whether they stuck with that approach.

And John, your cars look marvelous. I appreciate your quick snapshots to help illustrate details. I find it very helpful.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

J. Huber · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2008, 13:37:56 »

Well, speaking of door panels. Some of you may remember some posts years ago when I attempted to straighten out my warped panels. They got all curvy over the years -- precisely because there was no plastic in place (for a long time apparently). So I tried to steam them a little and flatten them with weight. (My wife still wonders why I was showering with my door panels that day..)

I tried this instead of replacing them, mainly because my original MB-tex was (is) in surprisingly good condition. The only real problem is the fit -- they are bowed and shrunk because of moisture so they don't sit in the lower channel very well. I have seen that vendors sell just the panel board -- does anyone think an upholsterer could remove my old MB-tex and re-use it on the new board? Just asking.

James
63 230SL

thelews · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2008, 14:14:50 »

quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber

does anyone think an upholsterer could remove my old MB-tex and re-use it on the new board? Just asking.

James
63 230SL

Don't see why not. I KHM has good quality new boards. www.cabrio.de

They also have the underdash panels and horsehair seat cushions.
John
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual

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Author Topic: Plastic Behind Door Panels (Read 15728 times)

Douglas

n/a

Anfinn

Douglas

Douglas

Anfinn

Douglas

Douglas