Head Questions- still

[MikeSimon]

I am still trying to sort out the various cylinder head configurations
What is the difference here?

[mbzse]

.../...various cylinder head configurations.../...

What are the cast-in part Numbers of these two engine heads?

[Benz Dr.]

They're two different heads. Can't say much by looking at the bottom.

[MikeSimon]

I do not have casting numbers. Would not have asked the question if I did. Both heads are presented as 280SE, SL Pagoda heads. I had hoped the experienced guys would recognize the difference in combustion chambers and could offer a clue. I think they both go with "oval" head gaskets. I may be wrong. have been before.

[mrfatboy]

Here is the picture of my head for my early 280sl (Aug 68).  I included the picture of the correct head gasket for the head.

[Benz Dr.]

I do not have casting numbers. Would not have asked the question if I did. Both heads are presented as 280SE, SL Pagoda heads. I had hoped the experienced guys would recognize the difference in combustion chambers and could offer a clue. I think they both go with "oval" head gaskets. I may be wrong. have been before.

How can they not have casting numbers? Did someone grind them off?    Should be on the side of the head but I imagine you know that already.

[ja17]

Mike, yours is the "oval version". mrfatboy's head is the square version.

[MikeSimon]

Thank you Gentlemen!
Dan: I do not have the heads in my hands. They probably have casting numbers, I just do not know them.
Joe: Thank you. That's what I thought. Do you have any idea what the difference between my two pictures is? Is one a FI head, the other a carb version?

[114015]

Do you have any idea what the difference between my two pictures is? Is one a FI head, the other a carb version?

Ah com'on Mike....,

As a 30+ years long Pagoda owner you are really supposed to be experienced enough to answer yourself such a naive (...) question...

If you don't have your both heads ... supposing these both are yours and not just pictures or so ...
if you don't have your both heads on hand but they are elsewhere it will be difficult to accurately answer your questions now.
You know very well that you can find the casting numbers of the cylinder heads on the left side - the sparkplug side - somewhere down between the 3rd and 4th plug. And then you can only decipher the cast number according to Joe's list he made about 15 years ago ...

Just by looking at (the dimensions of) the combustion chambers it will be very hard if not impossible to clearly predict which of the heads that are.

Furthermore ... the difference between a carb and injection head .... come on ....!
Just turn them around and look onto the top side (where there is the camshaft)...
The carb heads do not have the holes, the bores for the fuel injection nozzles ....

Have a rest and enjoy a beer ....

All best,
Achim

[114015]

I am still trying to sort out the various cylinder head configurations
What is the difference here?

Yes...., got it (I believe...).

The upper of your two pictures is obviously a new head, a NOS head or so. Supposingly very reasonably priced and you would really love to buy it ...

Have a look at the dimensions of the chain boxes ... the area where the camshaft chain runs through.
This box/area/bay is shorter (i.e. not as wide) on the carb cylinder heads than on the fuel injected ones...
i.e. your upper head - the new one - is a carb head
and as such non-usable for us Pagoda owners ....

Compare your both pictures ... then you'll recognize it.

Relax & have a second beer.
There's another chance to come up - just be patient.

Achim
(always looking for good 230 heads as well)

[114015]

Furthermore ... the difference between a carb and injection head .... come on ....!
Just turn them around and look onto the top side (where there is the camshaft)...
The carb heads do not have the holes, the bores for the fuel injection nozzles ....

Yes, I have already asked that Q myself too...
Can I .....?
Obviously, you cannot "convert" a 280 carb head into 280 fuel injection head because the front section of the heads - there where the chain runs through - is different between carb and FI head - as indicated above.
But there are not only 280 owners here ... also 230 owners.... 
Since it is also very hard to find new (perfect) 230 heads,
I was already asking myself - can I "make" (fabricate, machine) a 220 SE head into a 230 head...
...
by
1) drilling out holes for the fuel injection nozzles - which the 220 SE head does not have 

2) given the "assumption" that all holes for oil passages and water passages are comparable or could be adapted 

3) give the "assumption" that the size of the 220 vs. 230 combustion chamber is roughly the same.

On the first glance they are but I did not do the exact calibration ("auslitern" we say in German).

4) Biggest hurdle is the missing edge on the right side of the 220 head where the (new 230) valve cover seal is going to rest on - next to and around the FI nozzles.
This would need to be 'fabricated' by laser welding ....
And get that one then oil tight ...

When we are doing my next M127II engine (my engine overhauler & I) we will give it a look - just  for academic reasons ...

Always like to learn .....

Wishing you all "no headache"....
Best,


Achim

[Shvegel]

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/killerbigblockchevy

[MikeSimon]

  Once again, I do NOT have the heads in my possession and cannot look at them. That's why I asked the question. And once again, I thought the shape of the combustion chambers would be enough for the experts to identify the heads. The lower picture with the "large" combustion chambers should actually have a lower compression, if it is for a 280. That's what a larger combustion chamber does.
The upper picture looks pretty much lime my cylinder head (late 280SL) Difficult to assess the size of the chain tunnel.

[ja17]

The compression on both style cylinder heads should be the same. The compression ratio is cast below the casting number on the head. The width of the chain gallery on the fuel injected head is wider since the fuel injected block is wider to accommodate the fuel injection pump. The early fuel injected heads on a 220 SE sedan M127, did not have injector holes in the head but did have the wide chain gallery.

[MikeSimon]

The compression on both style cylinder heads should be the same. The compression ratio is cast below the casting number on the head. The width of the chain gallery on the fuel injected head is wider since the fuel injected block is wider to accommodate the fuel injection pump. The early fuel injected heads on a 220 SE sedan M127, did not have injector holes in the head but did have the wide chain gallery.

Thanks, Joe. I know the compression ratio is cast on the head, like the casting number is. For reasons explained a couple of times, I have no way of checking it.
Looking at the pictures, the way they are taken, I cannot see the difference in the chain gallery that you guys all see. To me it looks like same length, same width.
The combustion chamber in the lower head on the red background is significantly larger, which, when put on the same displacement block, will mean a lower compression ratio.
I will try to find out what the casting numbers are and get the answer that way.

Thanks all for your help.

[MikeSimon]

Cleared it up. Neither head is for a W113:

The first head (in the box) is number 130 016 09 01 (for a 280S)
The second head (red background) is 130 016 33 01 - still don't know what it is for.

[Benz Dr.]

The two heads are different but the one on the bottom has been used so there's a mark from the head gasket. I'm not sure if there's a ridge beside that area indicating a combustion space or if it's just the mark left from the gasket.

The two pictures are more remarkable for what they don't show rather than for what they do.

[MikeSimon]

So, here is another question, again, referring to the shape of the combustion chamber.:
If you look at the inlet valve, on the upper picture, the area around the valve is on the same plane as the deck.
On the lower head, the area around the intake valve is recessed into the combustion chamber.
Does this shape disappear when a head is machined and will appear as shown on the upper head?

Dan: Both heads are used, btw, the upper one is just cleaned up really good.

[Benz Dr.]

You can machine that space away but it might be really machined at that point. Head thickness is important but if the top of the head has been milled ( and many heads need that treatment ) it will throw those numbers off. You can make up top removal with cam shims but bottom removal can't be undone so easily. ( did I just say that?  )

[Shvegel]

Mike,
I would be willing to bet the open chambered head measures out at less than 9.5 to one.  I think Mercedes might have dropped compression to pass NoX emissions and just left the casting marks alone.

[MikeSimon]

That is possible, Pat. It is just strange that the large chamber head is an earlier version and tighter emissions came always later. I am surprised nobody else has seen a head like this and knows a definite answer as to what it is supposed to be.

[MikeSimon]

The mystery continues. Here is a picture of the casting number. And there is nothing where the compression ratio is usually shown. It does not look like it has been ground off.

[MikeSimon]

So I have run into several heads 33 01 for sale, claiming to be for the 280SL and the number is not shown in the chart and the combustion chambers look different to mine.
Are these heads for the W116?

[ja17]

The cylinder head chart may not be complete and some other numbers or versions may exist. Your number could be added if we can confirm it to be authentic and correct. In any case, I believe that there are only two style head gaskets and your would definitely be the "oval" latter style. Carefully lay your new head gasket on the head surface and check it, then do the same on the block. Also, you could just make the two hour drive down here and we could find out for sure!  It is strange that the compression ratio is not on the head.

[MikeSimon]

Joe: I cannot vouch for the 33 01 being an authentic SL head, but I have seen it called this several places. What I can confirm, is that the head on my 1971 280SL is original and it has casting number 130 016 17 01 and a compression ratio of 9.0. Darn!