Author Topic: Titanium short pump impellers update  (Read 7195 times)

BaronYoungman

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Titanium short pump impellers update
« on: June 11, 2019, 19:48:08 »
 So people have been asking how is this project going.  To give a brief synopses I found that the original impellers (which were a alloy with chromed centers) were the Achilles heel of the Bosch short fuel pump.  The metal decayed in stale gas.  Then in modern gas the ethanol ate away at it.  As such I started my journey to reproduce.  Unlike certain replacements available today, you can't do the impeller out of straight aluminum, it is too soft of a metal and modern gas will start to deteriorate the thin top fins of the impeller within a few years, but the worse issue will be the constant collision of the hardened steel shaft of the armature hitting against the soft metal of the impeller half moon to start the pump running, this is one of the reasons the originals were chromed in the center.  It is unfortunately a progressive thing also, as the half moon is started to be rounded the hardened steel shaft will be able to travel that much father gathering more energy causing a collision that will be much more deforming of the half moon and so on in a vicious cycle. So I started with stainless steel which is superior to the original alloy but I thought I still could do better and went with titanium.  This is where I turned to people much smarter than I and they explained that titanium will be lighter, hence the impeller will spin faster and will be very resilient to modern gasoline.  So we wire burned some examples but found they puckered under the heat of cutting then had to be lapped perfectly flat, an expensive and time consuming job.  I took two of our test impellers and have been soaking one of them in the oldest nastiest gas I could find and used another simulating 400 starts and 10,000 miles.  These test showed that the titanium was the way to go, no determinable degradation.
  Now the problem was how hard they were to produce.  Again seeking out people WAY smarter than myself found someone who makes extremely tight tolerance parts for the aerospace industry and he explained that in titanium there is a grain (yes to far generalize" just like in wood") and the reason it was puckering while wire burning was the grain.  He supplies us with these cylinders so that the "grain" will be complementary and will lower our cost and effort to making sure each is to the tightest of tolerance.  We are working on cutting them now and I should be ready to ship soon.  A job worth doing is worth doing right.  These pumps have survived 30+ years of running and I would be remiss if I were to put something in them with a really short time expected life.  Again when I am done I will give everyone a one time opportunity to buy one for their personal pump after which I will just be using them in the pumps I am rebuilding exclusively.  I am sorry this has taken so long.  1st picture was the titanium plates we originally used to make the impellers the second picture is our new "grain correct" cylinders that we will be slicing to make ones moving forward
Bob
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 19:59:43 by BaronYoungman »
Bob "Baron" Youngman
1971 280 SL silver  1 car 0 boxes
1983 500sec Wheeler Dealer AMG Widebody
1985 500sec Paris Autoshow AMG coupe
1994 320sl wifes car
1988 560sec  Japan "Yakuza Car"

Pawel66

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 20:05:30 »
I am bloody impressed, actually..
Thank you!
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Bonnyboy

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 20:41:44 »
Now this is amazing stuff -  while another popular automotive forums may be discussing if wearing Ray Bans with a dinner jacket is appropriate if you are driving top down, our forum is discussing puckered titanium,  determinable degradation, decayed metal and "grain correct" cylinders. 

This forum rocks.   

Keep up the journey you are on - this is real cool stuff.

Ian
 
Ian
69 280SL
65 F-100
73 CB750K
75 MGB
78 FLH
82 CB750SC
94 FLHTCU
08 NPS50

66andBlue

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 21:56:25 »
...  A job worth doing is worth doing right.  ....

👍 👏 👏
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
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ja17

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2019, 01:55:40 »
Someone is selling new CNC machined ones on the internet. However I do not expect that they are as good as your Titanium versions will be.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

wwheeler

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2019, 03:30:00 »
Wow Bob! I can't even imagine there is another automotive forum club that can come close to this. This is why I make this my go to for Mercedes forums. I only wish we could expand this for Pontons.

Keep raising the bar!
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

PeterPortugal

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 05:30:55 »
Bravo Bob !!

Regards

Peter
1963 220se Cabrio
1968 280se Coupe

Tom in seattle

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2019, 04:48:00 »
Very interesting and best wishes for your success.
Tom Averill
1967 250 SL Auto Euro Spec

specracer

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2019, 23:44:09 »
Looking forward to buying one of these. Mine sat for 6-8(?) years. When I acquired the car, cleaning the fuel system, some of the blades are incomplete. I cleaned it all up, and because of this forum learned, that there was not a replacement. So I said what the heck, Ill see what happens, put it back together, hoped for the best. It currently works. Who knows for how long. This is a great project, thanks for doing it.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2019, 02:54:49 »
Wow Bob! I can't even imagine there is another automotive forum club that can come close to this. This is why I make this my go to for Mercedes forums. I only wish we could expand this for Pontons.

Keep raising the bar!

We can do anything. Question is, how many here also own Ponton cars?  Is there not any other forum that adequately covers those cars?
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
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JamesL

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James L
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ja17

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2019, 14:32:58 »
The International Ponton Owner's Group (IPOG) is a very good and active forum.  However fuel injected cars in this group are very rare. Less than 2,000 fuel injected engines were produced for the ponton sedans, coupes and cabs total.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Benz Dr.

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2019, 22:28:25 »
The International Ponton Owner's Group (IPOG) is a very good and active forum.  However fuel injected cars in this group are very rare. Less than 2,000 fuel injected engines were produced for the ponton sedans, coupes and cabs total.

I figured it to be about 3,500 but regardless of that, it's a small number. Tying to find parts for that old stuff is not easy.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

wwheeler

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2019, 02:24:39 »
Yes, finding parts for the injected Pontons can be fun. I also belong to the IPOG group and their knowledge of fuel injection is limited because of what Joe said. The 190SL group is similar to this organization in that it has volumes of great technical info. As far as I know, that is about it for Pontons. The SL cars typically seem to have the better sites as the cars are more collectible and therefore more participation. Luckily for me, both my W111 and W128 coupes are similar mechanically and I am able to benefit from the knowledge on the SL sites.     
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

ja17

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2019, 04:11:00 »
You will find many more owner's of Mercedes fuel injected cars with W108, W111, W112 sedans coupes and cabs. The fuel injected models in these versions are much more plentiful than the injected ponton models. The electric fuel pumps and impellers are the same.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Benz Dr.

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2019, 20:28:44 »
You will find many more owner's of Mercedes fuel injected cars with W108, W111, W112 sedans coupes and cabs. The fuel injected models in these versions are much more plentiful than the injected ponton models. The electric fuel pumps and impellers are the same.

I agree but the injectors and pumps are not. Very similar to 220SEb engines but the pumps are different. Finding a set of good injectors is probably the most difficult task. The set of three have to all break at the same pressure or the engine won't run well or idle smoothly.  Not an easy system to sort out.

Those coming to the Meeting of the Clans in August will get to see a 1960 220 SE Cab we did a couple of years ago. Might be the best running example we've ever turned out and it took a couple of tries over a period of years to get it perfect. Yeah, it's that hard to do.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

teahead

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2019, 01:06:19 »
I'm down for one!
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

hauser

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2019, 15:22:48 »
Adam Savage from Mythbusters recently had an Iron Man suit 3D printed from titanium.

https://www.maxim.com/gear/adam-savage-builds-flying-iron-man-suit-2019-6


PeterPortugal

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2019, 06:14:27 »
Hi Bob,
Any further updates on getting these impellers into production?
Regards
Peter
1963 220se Cabrio
1968 280se Coupe

PeterPortugal

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2019, 14:40:54 »
Bob,
Any news please? I was holding out for your titanium impeller (who wouldn't !) but desperation to get my pump back in working order will eventually force me to buy the aluminium version readily available on eBay.
Regards
Peter
1963 220se Cabrio
1968 280se Coupe

BaronYoungman

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2019, 04:24:26 »
Sorry with the holidays and all have not been working on it.  I do have the stainless steel ones done tested the only difference being because of its heavier weight  is it takes 1/10 of a second longer to get to operating velocity. This is negligible because you would never be turning the key and  driving in less than a second and once the car is started the fuel pump will always be at full power it does not change depending on the amount of RPMs you have.  From the second you turn on the key till you turn the key off the fuel pump is operating at 100%. Anyway the stainless steel will not degrade in ethanol gasoline like aluminium so you will never have to worry about your impeller again at least in our lifetime. I can offer these at $170 each and obviously the stainless steel is of much stronger material than the aluminum so the center will never round out. I made a couple of the titanium but I could not get the cost to anything reasonable and the benefit of it does not outweigh its cost. Bob
Bob "Baron" Youngman
1971 280 SL silver  1 car 0 boxes
1983 500sec Wheeler Dealer AMG Widebody
1985 500sec Paris Autoshow AMG coupe
1994 320sl wifes car
1988 560sec  Japan "Yakuza Car"

BaronYoungman

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Re: Titanium short pump impellers update
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2019, 18:11:15 »
Sold out...will do another run in late January. Bob 630 903 9877
Bob "Baron" Youngman
1971 280 SL silver  1 car 0 boxes
1983 500sec Wheeler Dealer AMG Widebody
1985 500sec Paris Autoshow AMG coupe
1994 320sl wifes car
1988 560sec  Japan "Yakuza Car"