HELP NEEDED

[Babis]

Hello to everyone
I’m from Greece and my problem is that in 2005 bought a 1969 MB 280 SL from a Greek car dealer(unfortunately he passed away) as a collectors item with a special registration licence plate for classic cars. So far so good.
With this kind of licence registration I’m not able to drive the car daily because is prohibited by the authorities and because is not acceptable from insurance companies to insure it (it’s the law). But I and my wife decided to relocate and move to France but we can’t take the car with us because is not full registered for daily use but as a collectors item. Unfortunately the original registration papers had been kept from Greek customs but after years they destroyed them at all and there is no way to get them back from Greek customs.
What I have in my hands right now are the original USA Tx number plates and the VIN number of the vehicle.
Question: can I find somehow the original USA Tx registration licence and put to it my name as the owner of the vehicle, so to drive it legally and daily?
Any advice would be much appreciated.

[JamesL]

I struggle to work out why the French would register it as a "weekend" car just because it was in Greece. They will want it road-legal and registered as theirs. This is likely not painless ... search up posts by CeesKlumper as he registered a car in France.

You have A registration in Greece (ie in the EU) just not the one you want. If you think the French are going to be difficult, it seems to me you are best off pretending it was not in Greece and import it to France showing a "new" registration in France from Texas - but to do that you need a proof of purchase

However, given the EU, I'd drive it or stick it on a trailer to France and register it there at your new address. Once done, send a letter to Greece. I doubt the French even have a "weekend car" regstration - although they do restrict cars in certain places based on emissions and will treat it as an old car and treat it as yours using the registration document you do have

[Babis]

Dear JamesL,
Thank you for your answer, much appreciated.
 I go Cees Klumper to see if he can help me out with that issue.

[AGT]

Babis

This should all be possible and might not take too long.

As James says it can't see that you should have any trouble transporting the car from Greece to France across EU borders. Then the fun begins:

1. You need to get a certificate from Mercedes-Benz in Paris to say that the Pagoda was a model which was approved for sale in France. This costs maybe €50. However, if your speedometer is in MPH rather than KPH you will need to replace the speedo, get a new faceplate or (as I did) apply a sticker marked in KPH. You need to provide M-B in Paris with evidence from a M-B authorised dealer that the speedo is marked in KPH. In my case M-B was happy with a letter from the garage who applied the KPH sticker (not M-B authorised). Instead of the certificate you can get an approval from the French Automobile Federation (this takes a long time) or submit your car for a one-off type approval at a French Ministry of Transport test centre. I am not sure that a Pagoda would pass this test which is intended for kit cars or home conversion camper vans.

2. Once you have your certificate from M-B in Paris you can present the car for its French roadworthiness test - the Controle Technique. For this you will need to present your certificate from M-B in Paris and a registration document in your name. I am not sure that a registration document is really needed. It is a standard part of the process for a French car to provide your French registration document - the Carte Grise. I had a UK registration document and so I did not need to argue the point. The CT is not particularly demanding and there is no pollution test for old cars.

3. Next you need to go to the local tax office to obtain a certificate that all taxes have been paid on the import of the car to France. From another EU country there are no taxes to pay and if you have a Greek registration document that should work and you will get your certificate. I had imported my car from the USA to the UK and then to France and I had to provide evidence that I had paid taxes when I had imported the car into the UK. Fortunately, I still had this paperwork.

4. Then you go to the town hall with:

 - your Greek registration document;
 - your certificate from M-B in Paris;
 - your controle technique certificate;
 - your certificate that all import taxes are paid;
 - proof of your French address; and
 - your cheque book to pay the registration fee.

5. There is a form to be completed. You can get it on the day but you might want to get one in advance just to be sure that you have all the necessary pieces of paper. In the form you can choose between applying for a normal French registration (Carte Grise Normale) or a classic registration (Carte Grise de Collection). Currently, the Carte Grise Collection is more popular as (a) you only have to submit the car for a Controle Techique test every five years instead of every two years and (b) there may be exemptions from the pollution tests and you can't get a Crit Air pollution certificate for an old car. For a while there was a concern that a Collection car could only be driven at weekends or in the Department but this has gone away.

6. You will then get a piece of paper which allows you to have number plates made up - you can have white on black number plates if you go for a Carte Grise Collection.

7. Your Carte Grise will be posted to your French address.

Hope this helps. I have copies of a lot of the paperwork which I could send you when I am next in France in a couple of weeks.

Best regards
Andrew

[Babis]

Andrew
You are my man!!!!
I really much appreciate all the infos you sent me and thank you very much for the time you spent wrote down all of them! Great Help!!! I was really confused with that issue and thanks to you understood what the procedure of the paperwork has to be done.
And would also be great help for me if you could send me copies of the paperwork you already have, just to provide them as a guide when need it.
Thanks again
Kind regards
Babis

[Cees Klumper]

PM just sent on my own experiences with this process, in 2016, from Switzerland (non-EU country). Since this was one of my personal belongings when I moved from Switzerland to France, i did not have to pay any import taxes. (subject to a requirement not to sell the car within a one-year period).
I do think not having a registration will cause problems. When I got my certficate from MB France (by the way, that cost me EUR 150, and they did not require proof of a KPH speedometer, although the car was originally, way back, imported from the US) they did require a copy of the Swiss registration, front and back. So I hope Babis does have the Greek registration document. If not, it should be possible to obtain a copy.

[JamesL]

I am sure they have record of it somewhere for tax/roadworthiness/insurance purposes.

[Babis]

Thanks all of you Gentlemen,
Every post was pretty much helpful but unfortunately the papers that I have in my hands doesn’t help me though because are written in Greek language and for Greek use, as my car confirmed as “historical vehicle”, and it is a collectors item. I contacted Texas (US) vehicle registration department and they told me that they can’t help me out with more infos and that I have to contact M.B to look if the have something that might help me; Unfortunately there is no way to contact MB Texas as there is no such an option in their site!!! So, I think am in deep sh...(please excuse my language).
Any way, thank you all of you guys for your responses; much appreciated!
In this country you have to go illegal to survive!

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Hello Babis,

Why don’t you have your papers that you have on hand translated and then notarized. Once you have that done follow Andrew’s recommended steps. Whatever you do don’t give up, there is always a way out.

Good luck,

Dieter

[AGT]

Babis

It should not matter that your registration document is in Greek or that it is a registration for a historic vehicle. France has its category of "voiture de collection" and that is treated as a valid registration.

Can you post a picture of the registration document which you have?

Regards
Andrew

[JamesL]

Effectively, so does the UK although it's simply age related

[neelyrc]

Why don’t you have your papers that you have on hand translated and then notarized. Once you have that done follow Andrew’s recommended steps.

Babis, I agree with Dieter.

It is always best to be armed with sufficient paper.  If you get the Greek registration you have translated into French and notarized, you should also get an Apostille attached to the document to make it legal for use in France.  There are services advertising online that they will obtain the apostille for you or you can do it yourself if you already know which Greek government office issues. 

I would then follow Andrew’s outline.  It has been many years since I imported car into France but the system has  changed very little.  IMHO the French will not care which type registration you now hold in Greece.

As Dieter says don’t give up!

[Cees Klumper]

Approach MB France and ask for the same certificate they issued for my car. That plus your current Greek registration should work, I would think.

[Babis]

Ok, I attached the certicate of the car which as told in previous post is in Greek.
I contacted France embassy’s translate department and told me that because the document is not official government’s document, they are not able to translate it, so to allow me to use it for any official reason in France!!!
So, I think that the only thing could do is to find somehow the first US Texas original copy of the registration of the car?! [The original licence has been (as I mentioned in previous post) destroyed from Greek authorities!!)].
My God!!! Greek reality!!!
I also contacted MB Greece, and told me that in 1969 there was only 11 Mercedes in Greece and none of them was pagoda, so the don’t have records at all and that I should go MB USA!
The only official government’s paper I have is the last attachment which says that the official US license (number referred) has been kept by the customs. BUT the customs destroyed it!!!! WTF?! Go figure...
Thank you guys all of you but I’m really experiencing a drama!

[zak]

I guess the key first step is to get the car into France.
That would be a memorable drive!

So within the EU Babis could drive his pagoda through a few contiguous countries to reach France?
 The Athens to Marseilles Rally!

Seriously, once in France how long could you drive with the Greek plates/registration before getting pulled over by a gendarme ?

I think it will all work out.

jz

[neelyrc]

Babis, you indicate that only the last attachment to your post #13 is an official government paper.  What are the first two attachments, also in the Greek language, and what authority issued them if not a Greek government agency?  Sorry but my Greek language knowledge is zero.

As indicated in my post #11 above I think an apostille is the answer.  Both France and Greece are members of The Hague convention of 5 October 1961.  This being the case, each will recognize documents issued by the other when an apostille is attached.  An apostille can also be issued for non government issued but notarized documents.  Look at www.apostille.com/greece or google “Apostille from Greece” to find firms who will do the leg work for you or to find the goverment entity near you that actually issues the apostille. 

My guess is you will not be able to find info on an old, expired Texas registration with only the vehicle VIN.
There are online services that could possibly find a current registration using the VIN. 

I hope that the above is of some help. 

[Babis]

The first 2 documents ( 1 in real) is from a non governmental club that certificates the car and the owner and giving number plates allows me to drive the car under special events as classic rallys etc. Actually this club used to be under government’s “umbrella” but not any longer.
I tried appostille but unfortunately with no results as this option applies only at official government’s papers!
Neelyrc, when you say “There are online services that could possibly find a current registration using the VIN”, do you have any idea where I could possibly find, or where to search for such kind of services? It might be the only way to figure out my issue!

[neelyrc]

Babis, apostille should definitely work for government issued document (your last attachment) or notarized copy of your quasi-official documents.  I just received one in Italy on a notarized document from USA. Suggest you pursue more thoroughly. 

Google “Texas registration using VIN”, or something similar.  You will see a number of entities that offer history “look-up” and registration information using your VIN number. There are fees involved.  Some also offer information based on license plate number.  I have not used any of these sites and therefore can not vouch for the services offered by any of them. 

[AGT]

Babis

There are no easy answers to your situation.

Normally, you can drive a car in France for up to six months without having to re-register. In my Department (Alpes-Maritimes), a number of British people ignore this and seem to keep their cars on British registration plates. Maybe they take the car back to the UK for two minutes every six months but I don't think so.

To drive your car in France you must have insurance for liability to third parties and your first post said that you do not have insurance. From my experience you cannot get French car insurance unless you have a French registration but it might be worth trying a few insurance companies. My French cars are insured with AXA which has quite a large classic car insurance division. Your insurance does not have to be French or Greek, any EU country would do and would be valid as third party liability insurance in France. If you were to drive your car in France without insurance for liability to third parties you would be taking a very big risk - both criminal penalties and civil liability.

I don't think that you will be able to re-register your car with a certificate of conformity from M_B in Paris if you don't have your registration document. You might have to use the FFVE (Federation Francaise des Vehicules d'Epoque) which is able to issue a carte d'immatriculation for a car which is more than 30 years old. The first box on the FFVE application form is headed "Pas de Certificat d'Immatriculation" and this might solve your problem. The FFVE has a general enquiries email - secretariat@ffve.org

I should warn that the FFVE process is very slow - currently more than four months.

Two other ideas for you:

First - You could engage a French agent to help you, perhaps a classic car dealer who is familiar with the FFVE process. Some of our members (led by Rolf-Dieter) recently visited Boris Bracq in Bordeaux. Maybe, Boris would help you and I am sure that Dieter would help with an introduction.

Secondly - This is going to be a long game for you. Getting a proper registration is key to enjoying your car in France and also essential if you ever want to sell it. France, as you will know, can be a very bureaucratic country. There might be other EU countries where it would be easier to get a registration certificate in your circumstances and then you could re-register in France. Sadly, on the EU part, this would not be the UK as we have decided to become a medieval economy whose people eat root vegetables and wear sheepskin for warmth.

Best regards
Andrew

[JamesL]

Aye
But English turnips and Welsh sheepskin. We'll have none of that foreign muck    Grrrrrrr

Babis - I sent you a pm. I MAY be able to help you out in Texas...

[Babis]

Thank you Gentlemen for your help and concern. Much appreciated!
I contacted today with USA embassy and the will arrange me (I’ll be notified when) to have an appointment with an officer that suppose to be expert on these occasions. So, crossed fingers they might help me!
The point is that with out any goverment’s paper in my hands I really can’t move legally my car to France.
Ohhh, forgot to tell you that the club ELPA wihich was authorized by the government to provide these special licence for historical vehicles, just closed!!! So, I can’t even renew the existing licence and number plates!!! Yeah...!
Am I lucky or what?!

[JamesL]

Are you sure your name is not Josef K?

[Babis]

Babis is my real name actually

[JamesL]

I appreciate that the Greek civil service may be “stretched” but surely if they took your documents, they are obliged to look after them or offer replacements. If you have anything backing up your assertion they took them, or comment that they have lost/disposed of them, the ball is sort of in their court...?

You may get, for example, Texas id of the car and then they can tax you on it as a new import...

[Babis]

That's exactly what think I should do, to get a Tx id so to be able to "import" the car and pay the tax so to get gov's licence plates.
The big question is how can I get Tx id? what would the procedure be? I hope does not include a visit Tx State..! I'll try to clear it out when US embassy invites me, as I told in my previous text.
Unfortunately they told me that they can't give me any replacing document for the destroyed licence, because the case is not on their records any longer, so they don't actually know what exactly to replace or to write as a comment!
As for the Greek courts! You can't even imagine what a "Golgotha" would your life be to prefer charges to a Left party government's agency!!!!!! Greek Governor as all the government are communists !!! Can you imagine that?!