New soft tops

[n/a]

I'm looking into replacing my soft top.  Any advice on reliable sources for high quality replacements?  I will need a navy blue top.

Thanks.

Joe

[pagode.info]

Go for original Mercedes-Benz "Sonnenland"
material. Outside navy blue - inside beige.
The best original will cost about 450.--
Euro (ca. 585.-- US $).

Tom  


www.pagode.info

[mdsalemi]

Joe,

There are many sources for the tops; a quick look into The Star will yield some, as well as "the usual" parts sources we all refer to.  They are available from MB with "the star" (see below); Miller's has them on sale periodically; S&S Imports has them as a specialty, and I'm sure the rest of the vendors have them as well.  Mine came from Miller's and the quality is high.

One important note: if you plan on showing your car in any MBCA sanctioned event, one item they look for is the small embossed three point star in the rear plastic windshield.  Of course, only an "original" from MB top will have this; so if you go with an aftermarket, you will lose something in point(s).

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

.... as well as "the usual" parts sources we all refer to.

http://www.sl113.org/data/show_table.asp?table_name=usr_parts_and_service_suppliers

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Douglas]

Michael,

I don't believe the original top has a star in the rear window. There's just some kind of safety code gibberish in the corner. My last car had an original top that I replaced with another original top. (If I had to do it again, I'd get just the factory window separately and have it stitched in.)

Also, the MB top has now dropped by almost 50% in price. It's still considerably more than an aftermarket top, but it's just under a grand last time I checked. Black only.

The real way to tell whether a top is original is to feel for 2 metal bars embedded in the top above and below the rear window. Even the best aftermarket tops don't have those.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

Michael,

I don't believe the original top has a star in the rear window. There's just some kind of safety code gibberish in the corner. My last car had an original top that I replaced with another original top. (If I had to do it again, I'd get just the factory window separately and have it stitched in.)

Also, the MB top has now dropped by almost 50% in price. It's still considerably more than an aftermarket top, but it's just under a grand last time I checked. Black only.

The real way to tell whether a top is original is to feel for 2 metal bars embedded in the top above and below the rear window. Even the best aftermarket tops don't have those.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

I can't say whether or not what Doug states is accurate regarding the embossed star in the clear rear windshield, but I can verify from Starfest experience that the MBCA judging standards require the judges to look for it; that is one of their criteria (according to what I heard from Pete Lesler at his class for judges)for originality.  Pete?  Jonny B?  Did I misunderstand something?

If what you are saying is accurate, this should be brought to the judging attention for inclusion in MBCA sanctioned events; they do keep a running score sheet for originality.  This is a nitpicking "point" of course, but each point is worth $$$ to those in competition!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[n/a]

The best "replacement" top I've seen is available from GAHH. The only difference between theirs and a factory top is their logo in the back window. You could replace their back window with a plain one and it would look as good as the real article. Then again, factory soft tops are still available from MBUSA.

tom in CA
2003 C320 Coupe

[Tom]

Doug is right-the original top did not have a star in the rear corner, but a name that includes polyglas and a squiggly line that looks like an extended "W".  Attached is a picture.

My experience with some of the w113 judges was that they were not that experienced with the w113 cars-they were trying to deduct points for things that were original and accurate-just foreign to them.  For example, the glue that holds the fabric to the cross bars of the soft top interior shows-this is original to the car but they tried to deduct for it.

Download Attachment: P1010023.JPG
60.84 KB

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)

[mdsalemi]

Ah Ha!  And here we have the proverbial "catch-22" in judging.

If you have a Star, you are OK.
If you don't have a Star and your top is "tired" you are OK because it looks "original" (points for originality!!)
If you don't have a Star and your top is new, you are deducted because obviously it is a bogus aftermarket top!

I'll point Pete Lesler (if he hasn't seet it already) to the pix that Tom offered.

This is the interesting kind of information we get by sharing it all!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Douglas]

It's all beside the point -- 99.99% of the tops out there, even at shows, are aftermarket. The judges are deducting points for the wrong reason (no star), but they're still right to deduct for an aftermarket top, with the exception of Tom's top and just a couple of others out there.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[pagode.info]

I´m a little bit confused.

I was talking about new tops, bought at the
same factory (same product), where Mercedes
gets them from. They also sell those products
to independent dealers.

So what exactly makes the difference ? (I
cannot see any).

There is not only Original Merc and Aftermarket.

You can also buy the "original" at independent
dealers. Same product that Merc sells - at a
better price.  

Tom  

[mdsalemi]

Tom,

What I can surmise from this situation is this--and if anyone has any other information, please share.

1) Today, 33 years after the LAST 113 rolled off the assembly line, as Doug Kim says, 99.99% of the soft tops on 113's have been replaced.  There are few original, factory installed soft tops that have lasted this long.

2)  In replacing a soft top, you can go to an aftermarket supplier, or to a Mercedes Benz dealer.

3)  Regardless of whose or which factory the replacement soft top was made, ONLY the ones sold by an authorized Mercedes Benz dealer will have the small "three point star" embossed into the clear rear window.  Our own Tom Sargeant has the .01% car with an original soft top--so we have proof and a photo as well!

4)  In MBCA sanctioned Concours d'Elegance show events, a car will be deducted "something" (1 point?  1/2 point?) if the soft top does not have this star.  They are deducting the point because the top is an aftermarket top not a Mercedes top.  Yeah, as you point out, they might come from the same factory but that's beside the point in judging.

5)  Doug Kim has pointed out that the very original soft tops as installed at the factory do NOT have this star!

6)  I pointed out the proverbial "Catch-22".  In competition, you might have a beautiful like new aftermarket top.  Another 113 might have an older original top, or an older replacement top--but with the star.  He will not get a point deducted because he has an original top or an original replacement top; the originality or appearance of originality is often worth more then the condition.  Did I mention the new "Die-Hard" battery cleverly disguised with an old Varta "Tar-Top"?  As I said, or appearance of originality...

N.B. In Starfest 2004, I knowingly went in with my aftermarket top.  However, the judges jokingly were going to (they didn't) deduct points because my top did NOT have any glue on the inside rails!  Apparently mine was installed very neatly and the installer removed the excess glue!  They didn't even do this at the factory, and it was stated that mine was the only 113 they'd seen without glue on the inside rails!

Welcome to the crazy world of Concours d'Elegance judging!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Douglas]

The original top AND the factory replacement top being sold today by your Mercedes dealer do NOT have a star in the window.

I've had 3 OEM tops and none of them had a star.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[n/a]

Joe, there is a seller on ebay who has a hobby of restoring 113's and 107's and I have purchased multiple items from him over time, one of them this year being a navy blue top; I believe these run $395 right now and I am impressed with the one I bought from him recently that installed easily on my '64 230SL - looks very professional.  Has the correct Happich material underneath.  Send an email to eBay user "1boygenius" and he'll respond.  Of course there is always millermbz.com and it's tough to beat them for consistent knowledge of these cars; usually they run a top special a couple times per year.



Don French
'64 230 SL - 299,000 miles and 5 other classic MB's

[hauser]

Seems like Doug really has a handle on this topic so I'd have to go along whith what he has said.  

I rember speaking with Gernold about tops.  He mention a project he worked on that called for a gray canvas.  He had someone in Germany find the material, fabricate the top and sew an MB window in it.  He said it turned out so good no one could tell the difference.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

The original top AND the factory replacement top being sold today by your Mercedes dealer do NOT have a star in the window.

I've had 3 OEM tops and none of them had a star.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

OK--but where is this star coming from and why is there an issue about it in judging?  I'm not making this up here...perhaps we can have Pete Lesler make a comment? Is there another definitive method to determine an authentic top (not necessarily original) versus any aftermarket top?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Douglas]

Here's how the National/Regional Events Rule Book reads on the subject:

"The soft top should be Happich Canvas with a correct OEM rear window." (p.27)

I think there's an incorrect assumption that "OEM" means there should be a star in the window.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[pagode.info]

You can buy lots of different qualities:

1) Original top bought at a Merc Dealer
2) Original top bought from an independend dealer

(both above are the SAME parts)

And:

3) Reproduced Top in original "Sonnenland"-Quality
4) Reproduced Top in non-original, but similar Quality

Part 1-3 look exactly same and cannot be distinguished.
Not even by a specialist with 20 years of experience.

Part 4 (most sold part !) look similar, but not 100% original.

Have a nice day,

Tom  

[n/a]

Originally posted by Hervé Lepissier

Hello,
I do believe that I have a original soft Top, the incription embossed onto the rear plastic window, situated on the bottom right corner of the rear windscreen is :

WOPAVIN
- 9101 -
AS - 6
GHE M1

Then :
POLYGLAS
~~~D 24
____ 1 ____

see attached

Hervé
280SL 1969

Download Attachment: Pagoda softtop label1.JPG
55.03 KB

[Douglas]

Herve: Yes, that's an original top.

Tom: Impressed with your selection of soft tops on your website. Can you also get 7015 Dark Gray? I noticed you offer 7016 Light Gray.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

Here's how the National/Regional Events Rule Book reads on the subject:

"The soft top should be Happich Canvas with a correct OEM rear window." (p.27)

I think there's an incorrect assumption that "OEM" means there should be a star in the window.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

Ignoring originality and the rear window, how does one tell these Sonnenland and Happich materials from their substitutes?  I know full well I have an aftermarket top but no idea what it's made of.  It did come from Millers and was less then $400 on special.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[n/a]

Thanks for the great discussion.

I would like to reiterate Michael's comment, however - how can you tell if the top is made from the correct materials?

Joe
'71 280SL

[pagode.info]

Hello Douglas,

I just received a dark grey one from
factory, which I intend to put on my
own 230 SL (ivory/black body - black
int.)

Tom

[n/a]

I bought new top from GAHH and their patterns must be off, the top is about 3/4" short, getting the top latched the first time ment, modifying the latches with offset spacers...now that it is latched. I can no longer put top down, it takes muscle from two people to secure front. If this new top shrinks any I will be SOL, Also they quoted me one price w/shipping and then billed my credit card for a higher price...no fun dealing with these people

[gugel]

quote:
I bought new top from GAHH and their patterns must be off, the top is about 3/4" short, getting the top latched the first time ment, modifying the latches with offset spacers...now that it is latched. I can no longer put top down, it takes muscle from two people to secure front. If this new top shrinks any I will be SOL, Also they quoted me one price w/shipping and then billed my credit card for a higher price...no fun dealing with these people

This is very surprising, as I've heard only the highest praise for GAHH tops from all my sources.  Could this be an installation problem?

Chris Earnest