Author Topic: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump  (Read 20807 times)

bpossel

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Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« on: November 09, 2004, 10:08:08 »
I "may" need to take off my IP and have it serviced.

Who does the group recommend to send it to, if I need to have it overhauled?

Thank you!
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL (sold)

mdsalemi

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2004, 10:27:45 »
H & R Fuel Injection Ltd
Address:   360 Knickerbocker Ave # 12, Bohemia, NY 11716  
Phone: (631) 589-1600


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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Douglas

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2004, 10:27:55 »
Bob,

I think the 2 places most people use are either H&R Fuel Injection in Bohemia, NY or Pacific Fuel Injection in San Francisco. I believe they're both listed in the vendor links on this site.

I've dealt with both and have been impressed by both. I believe Pacific does more cosmetic work on the pump than H&R, so it looks slightly prettier when it comes back, but they charge more too.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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mdsalemi

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2004, 10:38:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

Bob,

I think the 2 places most people use are either H&R Fuel Injection in Bohemia, NY or Pacific Fuel Injection in San Francisco. I believe they're both listed in the vendor links on this site.

I've dealt with both and have been impressed by both. I believe Pacific does more cosmetic work on the pump than H&R, so it looks slightly prettier when it comes back, but they charge more too.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220



Well IMHO it doesn't get any prettier then this I'm afraid...this is from H&R.

Download Attachment: Rebuilt Fuel Injection Pump.jpg
82.19 KB

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
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Ricardo

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2004, 11:11:45 »
Our own Dr. Benz has a buddy in the injection business who did my pump when it self-destructed and Dan has parts pumps that can help keep repair costs down as well as injectors etc. for sale.
He helps us all and we need to help him, when we can.
Ricardo

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2004, 12:03:20 »
Michael,

I agree Hans does beautiful work. Here's a 300SL pump H&R did:


Download Attachment: pump.JPG
75.37 KB

Douglas Kim
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Ben C.

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2004, 04:14:24 »
quote:
Our own Dr. Benz has a buddy in the injection business who did my pump when it self-destructed and Dan has parts pumps that can help keep repair costs down as well as injectors etc. for sale.
He helps us all and we need to help him, when we can.



I second that !  Dan helped me with an obscure part that literally "fell off" my pump. He shipped straight away all the way to the Emerald Isle !

Another advantage is that if you remove and refit yourself Dan can help with any problems or subsequant running issues !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

bpossel

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2004, 10:52:49 »
Thanks all for your great suggestions!
I ended up pulling my injection pump, warm and cold start valves and have shipped to Hans at H&R.  I cant wait to get it back!

Question.  With the IP removed, I am doing some cleaning.  I have noticed a "plug" of sorts with nothing connected to it.  Does anyone know what this is?  what it is for?  Is this missing a wire?

Please see attached image.  This plug sits below spark plug #5, towards rear of engine, above the oil filter...

Thanks!
Bob

Download Attachment: engine2.jpg
25.77 KB

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL (sold)

gugel

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2004, 15:22:00 »
quote:
I "may" need to take off my IP and have it serviced.

Who does the group recommend to send it to, if I need to have it overhauled?

Thank you!
Bob



There's a very good place in Redding, CA which has long specialized in old Mercedes fuel injection pumps, and which I think is a lot cheaper than most:

Jerry Fairchild Industries
5242 Westside Rd Ste 1
Redding, CA  96001-4145
(530) 241-1592

Chris Earnest

George Des

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2004, 06:59:27 »
Generally, what do these two place charge for a rebuild? I have a 230SL FI I've been considering having rebuilt. I was having some cold start problems and just happened to have a spare cold start valve that I picked up at Carlisle a few years back. Put it on and the car now starts right up. My idle is still a little uneven until it really gets warm though. Main reason I would like to do the rebuild is that this is the last and only element on the power train that hasn't been touched as part of a major engine and body restoration and want to make sure this isn't a 'weak" link. Have heard many good things about H%R. I do have a spare FI. Wonder if Hans would accept parts/spares as partial consideration when doing these rebuilds?


George Des

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2004, 07:40:47 »
Hi George,

Hans has quoted me $950 for the IP rebuild.  Also an add'l $125 for the cold start rebuild.  Cleaning the injectors is "free".  In talking to Hans, it became clear to me that this type of work not only requires the correct and very expensive test equipment, but most importantly the experience of an "artist" to fine tune these devices in complete harmony (IP, cold, warm start valves and injectors).  His price includes whatever parts he needs to replace on the units.  Good Luck!  I cant wait to get my unit back and into my car!
Bob


quote:
Originally posted by George Des

Generally, what do these two place charge for a rebuild? I have a 230SL FI I've been considering having rebuilt. I was having some cold start problems and just happened to have a spare cold start valve that I picked up at Carlisle a few years back. Put it on and the car now starts right up. My idle is still a little uneven until it really gets warm though. Main reason I would like to do the rebuild is that this is the last and only element on the power train that hasn't been touched as part of a major engine and body restoration and want to make sure this isn't a 'weak" link. Have heard many good things about H%R. I do have a spare FI. Wonder if Hans would accept parts/spares as partial consideration when doing these rebuilds?


George Des



bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
« Last Edit: November 14, 2004, 07:41:54 by bpossel »
bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL (sold)

Douglas

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2004, 10:13:30 »
George,

Some of the 230SL IP parts are very dear, so I'm sure Hans will be interested. Call him. He's very easy to talk to & will even give some credit for a core if you want to do a swap.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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mdsalemi

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2004, 13:32:28 »
George & Bob,

As one who is in the car wash business, I know all about nozzles--and they are not much different then fuel injectors.  If you are spending nearly $1k on a necessary FI pump rebuild (and Hans is just the man to do it for you), don't put old injectors back in.  In addition to dirt, injectors (just like my car wash spray nozzles)wear.  Buy a set of new ones--if you shop around you can find them for about $50 each or so.

When Hans did my pump in 2001 he asked for the injectors to test as well.  They all failed so I had to get new ones anyway.  But it seems to me the worst thing you could do is to find three "bad" ones and then have a mix of three new ones; and three old ones!

My motto is do it once, do it right--then put it out of your mind and move on to the next project.


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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rwmastel

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2004, 13:38:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by bpossel

Question.  With the IP removed, I am doing some cleaning.  I have noticed a "plug" of sorts with nothing connected to it.  Does anyone know what this is?  what it is for?  Is this missing a wire? This plug sits below spark plug #5, towards rear of engine, above the oil filter...

Download Attachment: engine2.jpg
25.77 KB

Bob,

Did anyone answer this question?  I don't have an answer, just a curious by-stander.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2004, 14:05:10 »
I agree with Michael about replacing the injectors. You could also have your injectors cleaned by Hans. I keep an extra set that I have cleaned and swap out every few years.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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George Davis

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2004, 14:35:55 »
Bob and Rodd,

I'd guess the "plug" is one of the temperature switches used on the '70/'71 US spec cars.  Not sure what the effect is if the wire isn't connected and/or the switch isn't functioning.  Jeff has that stuff figured out...

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2004, 14:46:39 »
Thanks Mike!

Where can I buy new injectors for $50.  Any advice?
Regards,
Bob

quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

George & Bob,

As one who is in the car wash business, I know all about nozzles--and they are not much different then fuel injectors.  If you are spending nearly $1k on a necessary FI pump rebuild (and Hans is just the man to do it for you), don't put old injectors back in.  In addition to dirt, injectors (just like my car wash spray nozzles)wear.  Buy a set of new ones--if you shop around you can find them for about $50 each or so.

When Hans did my pump in 2001 he asked for the injectors to test as well.  They all failed so I had to get new ones anyway.  But it seems to me the worst thing you could do is to find three "bad" ones and then have a mix of three new ones; and three old ones!

My motto is do it once, do it right--then put it out of your mind and move on to the next project.


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored



bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL (sold)

rwmastel

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2004, 15:22:48 »
quote:
Originally posted by bpossel

Thanks Mike!

Where can I buy new injectors for $50.  Any advice?

I'd be interested, too.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2004, 18:01:46 »
I have 5 new injectors in stock. These are for 280SL - the earlier 230SL style are NLA.

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

mdsalemi

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2004, 19:00:20 »
Well, Gents, I can't do your research for you...and a name is not at my fingertips.

However, in 2001 I paid about $50 each for a set of 6; this was from my restorer who got them from one of his suppliers.  In this day and age there is little distinction between wholesale and retail--much to the dismay of smaller retailers--so I think with some poking around you should be able to secure a good price.  For sure the price has gone up a bit since then (n.b. so has the value of our cars), but when I checked around by myself at that time, I remember something on the order of $65-$75 each from the usual sources.  That's when my restorer said he'd get them.  And no, I didn't get hosed.  I'll dig through the literal reams of papers I have on my car and see if the restorer's original supplier's receipt was in there.  I did get most of them.

SO since many of you are looking for these injectors at a good price, perhaps you should do a bulk purchase...buy in bulk and save, not a bad idea.  I did negotiate "whole car discounts" with one major supplier, so it is not unreasonable.



Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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rwmastel

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2004, 22:29:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.

I have 5 new injectors in stock. These are for 280SL - the earlier 230SL style are NLA.

Dan,

My 230SL parts list shows fuel injector part 000 078 07 23.
The local MB dealer has fuel injector part 000 078 11 23.

 - Is the "11" part number the 280SL part number?
 - Do you (one anyone) have a Bosch number for any of these injectors?
 - Are the 280SL injectors OK to use in a 230SL?
 - Can my NLA injectors be cleaned/refurbished?

Thanks,

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
« Last Edit: November 15, 2004, 22:41:27 by rwmastel »
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mdsalemi

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2004, 11:44:05 »
Here are some sources for fuel injector NOT THE PUMP) overhaul/refurbishment.  I have no experience with any of these guys, but I did read a bit about how they clean and refurbish them and it isn't something you can do yourself.  Those that feel they can have their old injectors cleaned up, talk or email some of these folks and see how they react to the old style injectors for a mechanical system.

http://www.lindertech.com/reconinj.htm
http://www.fuelinjectorsdirect.com/
http://www.injectorshop.com/
http://www.ccfuelinjection.com/
http://tunemycar.com/index.html


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2004, 12:32:44 »
I think the early ones are known as R1 the later ones are stamped R2. The difference is in the spray pattern and cone shape. Good ones will break around 225 PSI or higher.

You can use R1's or R2's in either engine but it's best to keep them as a set. Dealer list is $118.00 USD. I can get a set of 6 for $79.00 each. It's very doubtful that you would find them for $50.00 anymore as the dealers are paying more than that now.

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2004, 14:47:13 »
Rodd:  According tot Hans at H&R, the earlier syle or the R1's are superior to the later style.  I would recommend having them checked and cleaned out.  They rarely cause problems.  Hans said the earlier ones are noisier due their design, but are less prone to clogging.  My 250SL, an early model, also has these same injectors and they have never clogged.

Pete Lesler




quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel

quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.

I have 5 new injectors in stock. These are for 280SL - the earlier 230SL style are NLA.

Dan,

My 230SL parts list shows fuel injector part 000 078 07 23.
The local MB dealer has fuel injector part 000 078 11 23.

 - Is the "11" part number the 280SL part number?
 - Do you (one anyone) have a Bosch number for any of these injectors?
 - Are the 280SL injectors OK to use in a 230SL?
 - Can my NLA injectors be cleaned/refurbished?

Thanks,

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420


Cees Klumper

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2004, 15:09:19 »
I've heard that the injectors can be cleaned ultra-sonically. I have used my wife's jewellery cleaner for this purpose!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
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mdsalemi

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2004, 17:15:33 »
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper

I've heard that the injectors can be cleaned ultra-sonically. I have used my wife's jewellery cleaner for this purpose!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic



Yes they can.  I don't know the proper solvents to use; however it is unlikely a small jewelry cleaning model has enough power to really do the job properly, and certainly most of us don't have the proper tools to check the injectors before or after.  One of the companies says that theirs has 5,000 watts of ultrasonic power.  This is not readily or inexpensively available; I have one small laboratory unit and it is not anywhere near 5,000 watts; more likely about 500!  Of course they also say not to use anything buy water based cleaning agents....my guess is you need a strong solvent to clean injectors.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 17:16:20 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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rwmastel

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2004, 19:36:17 »
I got two of my injectors out to swap them in testing.  They are Bosch DC8C45R1.  I will probably send them to be cleaned, but they are apparently not my immidiate problem.

I called Gus at Pacific Fuel Injection and he said they can be cleaned with an ultrasonic treatment.  He also said the "old ones" are NLA, but the "new ones" would work fine with my 230SL Injection Pump.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 21:43:39 by rwmastel »
Rodd
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1966 230SL  (waiting patiently for me)
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mdsalemi

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2004, 09:16:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel

I got two of my injectors out to swap them in testing.  They are Bosch DC8C45R1.  I will probably send them to be cleaned, but they are apparently not my immidiate problem.

I called Gus at Pacific Fuel Injection and he said they can be cleaned with an ultrasonic treatment.  He also said the "old ones" are NLA, but the "new ones" would work fine with my 230SL Injection Pump.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420



Rodd et al,

From what I understand and researched when I did my system was that the balance between the injectors is important; there is a tolerance +/- in fuel flow that should be maintained for proper and uniform operation across all the injectors.  That's one reason why they should be cleaned as a group and tested as a group to ensure that this tolerance is maintained.  One thing the "cleaners" should have is a standard.  I don't know if Bosch publishes it or not.  There's also a spray pattern that should be fairly uniform from injector to injector.  What the cleaning is supposed to do of course is to remove everything from the injector that doesn't belong there which would impede or alter the fuel flow or delivery.  I would imagine one could save a bit of money by having the injectors cleaned.  We may think our injectors are expensive, but electronic ones have a solenoid and they are probably twice the price.

When I got my car, I spoke with Hans at H&R; Bruce Adams of SL, Bud's Benz; Hatch & Sons; Paul Russel, and Dave Payne who did the restoration.  ALL of these guys said the same thing regarding the running of the car, almost verbatim "It hasn't been sitting long, has it?" to which my reply was, "Well, not too long--just since 1985".  They were all concerned about the fuel system, and of course having sat for 14 years, it was useless.

Hans tested my injectors and suggested disposing of them. :evil:  I think they were beyond salvation.  Let's hope yours are much better!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2019 Ford Flex SEL
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rwmastel

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2004, 11:35:02 »
Michael,

I guess when I said I would send the injectors in for a cleaning, I didn't imply that I would do all of them.  I do know to do that.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual, please contribute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL  (waiting patiently for me)
1980 450SL  (for sale)
1997 E300 Diesel  (daily driver)
2006 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon  (off-roading)
2006 C230  (sold in 2015)
1994 E420  (sold in 2007)

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2004, 17:39:39 »
Here's an update on my injection pump and cold start valve (CSV).
I received both IP and CSV back from Hans at H&R.  See attached pics of before and after.  Summary, took a lot of time to remove and re-install!!!!  but, now the car runs like a dream!  When I first started the car after installing the rebuilt IP and CSV, the car started right up...  as it ran, it started to run poorly and there was a strong smell of gas.  It also back fired when I pushed the linkage and let off of it.  Called Hans and we spoke about the problem and possible solutions.  We agreed that I need to check the spark plugs.  Maybe the oil was saturated with gas from "before" I sent the IP and CSV to Hans.  I pulled the plugs and sure enough, plugs were caked with black soot, carbon (fyi, these were brand new plugs).  Anyway, I then drained the oil.  I have never seen oil like this before.  It ran out like water!  Smelled very strong of gasoline.  The oil filter was clean but smelled of gas!  I replaced the oil and filter, and also installed yet another set of new plugs.  At this point a few $ more...  the wife is already mad so it wont make a difference...  The car started right up!  A little black smoke and smell of gas.  No back firing!  Today I took the baby on its maiden journey.  It ran great!!!  Filled the new gas tank with fresh new gasoline...  drove highway and in stop and go traffic.  I even put the top down.  Today in Memphis it was sunny and very nice.  I did run the heater however...  I checked the plugs tonight and all 6 look very normal.  A nice, slight greyish color!  I am soooo happy!  

If anyone needs advice or help with replacing their IP, CSV or gas tank, please email me or post a new post on our website.

Note: I also ended up buying 6 new injectors.  Hans told me that all 6 of mine were bad.

To all that helped me, thank you!  A special thanks and hello to Joe and Mary...

Bob


Download Attachment: ip-before.jpg
27.76 KB

Download Attachment: ip-after.jpg
36.9 KB

Download Attachment: csv-before.jpg
33.01 KB

Download Attachment: csv-after.jpg
27.14 KB

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 17:43:24 by bpossel »
bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL (sold)

ja17

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Re: Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2004, 18:46:40 »
Good job Bob,
Glad to hear it worked out, but sorry you had to do so much work and went over budget. Hopefully the experience and knowledge gained will continue to save you time and money in the long run not to mention the satisfaction from doing it on your own!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback